Relationship with God

[sue moore]

Hello all! It's been a long time since I posted though I've been reading and learning from the forums. I am hoping someone has some insight into my dilemma. As a former evangelical for 25 years, I am used to a "sense" of God's presence in my life on a personal level. It seems from reading Orthodox writings that this is frowned upon. I don't understand comments about 'getting to know God through the Liturgy and the sacraments.' If you're not supposed to use your imagination at all where God is concerned and you shouldn't trust or use your feelings, then how do you get to know and commune with God? If an Orthodox reads the Bible and it speaks about God, don't you imagine those qualities? How does one not use the imagination? Also-inventors created new products through imagining them first. It is a God given attribute, so why is it frowned upon in Orthodox practice? I feel confused and lost concerning my faith as I can no longer trust anything I feel or imagine concerning God. My foundation for relating to God seems to have been pulled out from under me. I am a new convert (of 9 mths). The Orthodox I have spoken to don't seem to have this dilemma though I haven't spoken to a convert about this issue. Thank you in advance for your insights.
Sunny

[Grigorii (Jarno) Wasse]

Dearest to Christ Sunny,

Myself a convert from Evangelical Pentecostalism to Orthodoxy, I understand the use of imagination. To me, it was a liberation to finally be free from "imagining God" all the time, and to "push myself and others to feel God", I never could do that very well. I always felt as if "looking from the outside in" which was very frustrating. It was a deadly strain on my spiritual life.

Becoming Orthodox, I found out that the presence of God in me does not depend upon my "feeling" it, it depends upon the objective facts of my participation in His Trinitarian Life as it is given to me in the Mysteries (Sacraments). By baptism I have been "born-again", a new and undying spiritual life has begun in me, by Chrismation I have been "ordained" into the general priesthood of the Body of Christ, because the Holy Spirit has united His life with mine. Through confession, my spiritual life is examined, my sins and weaknesses are being looked upon in the light of Divine Grace and I am restored unto God and His Body, the Church. In receiving the Holy Eucharist, I am literally being "shot through" with Christ, He transforms me into Him so that "no longer I, but Christ lives in me." This no longer depends on "feeling" it depends on fact, my feelings and imagination are subject to this objective power of God's reality.

But indeed, imagination does have a place. Tho Orthodoxy warns about "producing them" since God is beyond all our imagination. When it is used independently, it produces "golden calves" and we mistake our imaginary friend to be the One True God. I have come across positive use of the imagination in St. Nicholas Cabasillas' "The Life in Christ" I wholeheartedly recommend it to you. It will make very clear to you how the Mysteries (sacraments) function in your relationship with God, and it will also give suggestions how to subject your imaginative faculty to safe standards.

IC XC

Grigorii}

[Grigorii (Jarno) Wasse]

Oh uhm,.. Sunny,.. you may also benefit very very much from "Jesus a Dialogue with the Saviour" by A Monk of the Eastern Church (Fr. Lev Gillet).

[Byron Jack Gaist]

The issue of the role and function of the imagination in Christian life seems hugely important to me, too, being a Western-educated Orthodox. Imagination is treated with extreme caution in Orthodoxy, being linked to illusion, or "plani". Yet which faith relies on the power of images (Greek: "ikones") more than our own? Clearly an issue of great importance is being touched upon. My own priest suggested that it is not imagination as a function per se which is dangerous, but the imagination after the Fall. I do not have a deep understanding of evangelical Christianity, but I can certainly relate to the question of the role of feelings and imagination in the spiritual life. At least I have known both to be healing factors in my work as a psychologist. But here another set of problems is introduced. Is psychological being identical with spiritual being? Certainly not having to rely on my imagination or my emotions is a relief in my own spiritual life.

Lastly, if it is the fallen imagination which leads so easily to illusion, I cannot help being curious: what function did the imagination have before the Fall, and how does it operate in the Saints?

Please forgive me if this is muddled, and ignore this post if it only serves to confuse things more. I'm just thinking aloud.

Yours in Christ,
Byron

[Ken McRae]

"I don't understand comments about 'getting to know God through the Liturgy and the sacraments.' If you're not supposed to use your imagination at all where God is concerned and you shouldn't trust or use your feelings, then how do you get to know and commune with God? If an Orthodox reads the Bible and it speaks about God, don't you imagine those qualities? How does one not use the imagination?" - Sue Moore

"I have come across positive use of the imagination in St. Nicholas Cabasillas' "The Life in Christ" I wholeheartedly recommend it to you. It will make very clear to you how the Mysteries (sacraments) function in your relationship with God, and it will also give suggestions how to subject your imaginative faculty to safe standards." - Grigorii Wasse

Grigorii's comments on the "Charismatic" abuse(s) of imagination are quite pertinent, and it affords us an excellent, albeit tragic case of the relationship between spiritual delusion and the "undisciplined" use of the imaginative faculty, in the spiritual life. However, as implied, intellect and memory depend upon this faculty for their proper functioning, as cognitive psychology effectively demonstrates, I feel. The Catholic Encyclopedia provides a useful article on the cognitive function of imagination, though it does not really delve into its place or corrective function in the spiritual life. >> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07672a.htm << Though Orthodoxy and Catholicism have a slightly different view of the role imagination plays in the spiritual life, many Catholic mystics are as wary as the Orthodox of the "deception(s)" that "false" imaginations can and often do lead to. However, along with the two books recommended by Grigorii, I'd also recommend the works of Anthony Bloom on prayer:-

Living Prayer

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872430545/ref=pd_sim_b_1/104-5513609-2744700?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

Courage to Pray

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0881410314/qid=1105280436/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/104-5513609-2744700?v=glance&s=books

The Essence of Prayer

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0232516987/qid=1105281832/sr=1-20/ref=sr_1_20/104-5513609-2744700?v=glance&s=books

The School for Prayer

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0232523037/qid=1105280436/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-5513609-2744700?v=glance&s=books

Beginning to Pray

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809115093/qid=1105280070/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-5513609-2744700

Metropolitan Bloom has much to say about the "sensible" or "felt" presence of God, and its corallate spiritual experience of "desertion" or "depression" in the life of prayer; an experience Teresa of Avila (a Catholic saint) referred to as "aridity" or spiritual "dryness", and struggled much with. The presence of God is made known to His children in many ways, often in a very "sensible" or "felt" manner; however, not always in the way that we might "imagine". When we feel "strong" in Christ, that is to say, feel the power of godliness enabling us to fight the good fight of faith, we can say that we "feel" God empowering us to stand for Him in a life of humble obedience.

Much more could be said in this vein, but I wish to make no pretensions to "eldership", so will end with a final remark concerning the loss of the "sensible" or "felt" presence of God. Scripture teaches quite clearly that it is our sin(s) that seperate us from God. Thus it is "reasonable" to assume that a life lived in unceasing repentance or continuous turning toward and aspiring after God will progressively and systematically remove those barriers that seperate us from God and his "known" or "experiential" presence in our lives.

In the humility of Christ,
Theophilus

[sue moore]

To Grigorii, Byron, and Theophilus,
Thank you for your very helpful and encouraging responses! I will look for the reading material you have suggested.
Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us and save us.
Sunny

[Ken McRae]

Dear Sue,

The following words of St. Theophan the Recluse offer us much useful insight and advice on this mystery of godliness, concerning the Lord's dealing(s) with us, in the way of spiritual desolation or "desertion", that I thought it good to post them here. I hope they resonate with your heart, as they do mine.

June 27, 1999
Times of Desolation -- Part V

>> http://www.innerlightproductions.com/thoughts/june2799.htm <<

Today we will continue with the writings of a more recent "Desert Father," namely St. Theophan the Recluse, a Russian father of the 19th century who lived in the frozen deserts of the Russian north. Although he is a modern saint in chronological terms, he is spiritually at one with the ancient Desert Fathers of Egypt and Palestine. The first week we began this series with “War With Passions,” and followed that with "Know Yourself." Part III looked at “Inner and External Work,” and in Part IV we studied “Solitude.” In this issue, we will consider the issue of "Times of Desolation." Much of St. Theophan’s teachings come to us in the form of letters he wrote to lay persons so his advice is very practical and down-to-earth for those who are trying to grow spiritually. Unless otherwise noted, all quotations are from St. Theophan.

BEGIN: -- The abiding of our soul with the Lord, which is the whole essence of inner work, is not something that depends upon us. The Lord visits the soul, and the soul dwells with Him; the soul rejoices before Him and He fills it with spiritual warmth. Then the Lord withdraws and at once the soul is empty, nor does it lie at all within its power to make the Good Visitor of souls return. The Lord withdraws to put the soul to the test, or sometimes to punish it, not so much for external trespasses but for some inner evil to which the soul has granted admission. When the Lord withdraws to put the soul to the test, He quickly returns once more when it begins to call out to Him. But when He withdraws as a punishment, He does not soon return – not until the soul has realized the sin it has committed, has repented, has wept over it and done penance.

-- Above all, watch carefully when the soul grows cool. This is a bitter and dangerous state. The Lord uses it as one of His means of guidance, instruction, and correction. But it can also be a kind of punishment. The reason is usually an open sin, but since in your case no such sin is in evidence, the cause should be sought in inner feelings and dispositions. It may be that a high opinion of yourself has stolen into you, and you think that you are not like the others? Maybe you are planning to tread the path of salvation by yourself and to ascend on high by your own efforts?

-- You undertake different tasks, so you tell me, “in most cases unwillingly and without any eagerness – I have to force myself.” But this, after all, is a basic principle in the spiritual life – to set yourself in opposition to what is bad and to force yourself to do what is good. This is the meaning of the Lord’s words, “The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matthew 11:12). This is why following the Lord is a yoke. If all were done eagerly, where would be the yoke? Yet in the end it so comes about that everything is done easily and willingly . . .

-- As soon as you turn away – however slightly – from God, and no longer place your trust in Him, things go awry; for then the Lord withdraws, as though saying, “You have put your trust in something else – very well, rely on that instead.” And whatever it may be it proves utterly worthless.

-- You see how cold it is without grace, and how listless and inert the soul is towards anything spiritual. This is the state of good pagans, of Jews faithful to the Law, and of Christians who lead blameless lives but do not think about their inner life and its relation to God. Yet they do not feel an ache like yours, because (unlike you) they know nothing of the effects of grace. Since from time to time it falls to their lot to experience a kind of spiritual consolation – natural, not grace-given – they remain at peace.

What keeps grace in the soul more than anything else? Humility. What makes it withdraw more than anything else? Feelings of pride, a high opinion of oneself, self-reliance. Grace departs as soon as it senses this evil stench of inner pride.

-- We grow cold within when our heart is distracted, when it cleaves to something other than God, worrying about different things, getting angry and blaming someone – when we are discontented and pander to the flesh, wallowing in luxury and wandering thoughts. Guard against these things, and the coldness will diminish.

As to the heart – where else is life if not in the heart?

-- How many times already have you been made aware of the duty which your conscience dictates to you – the duty to remain with the Lord, not preferring anything else to Him? Perhaps your awareness of this duty no longer ever leaves you. May the actual practice of it likewise prevail constantly within you; for this, after all, is our true aim. When we are with the Lord, the Lord too is with us; and everything is bright. When the window curtains are drawn apart in a room and the sun shines, the room is full of light. If you draw the curtain over one window it will be darker, and when you draw them all the room will be in total darkness. It is the same with the soul. When it is turned towards God with all its powers and feelings, everything in it is bright, joyful, and calm. But when it turns its attention and feeling to something else this brightness diminishes. The greater the number of things that occupy the soul, the greater the darkness that invades it; and then complete darkness may result. It is not so much thoughts that bring this darkness, as feelings; while a single instance of being carried away by the feelings is less likely to bring darkness than is a continued passionate attachment to some object. The greatest darkness of all comes from external acts of sin. END

From "The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology," (London: Faber & Faber, 1966), pp. 257 - 261

July 4, 1999
Illusion -- Part VI

>> http://www.innerlightproductions.com/thoughts/july0499.htm <<

Today we will continue with the writings of St. Theophan the Recluse, a Russian father of the 19th century who lived in the frozen deserts of the Russian north. Although he is a modern saint in chronological terms, he is spiritually at one with the ancient Desert Fathers of Egypt and Palestine. The first week we began this series with "War With Passions," and followed that with "Know Yourself." Part III looked at "Inner and External Work," and last time we studied "Solitude." In Part V we considered the issue of "Times of Desolation." In Part VI, we will look at "Illusion," a very important topic in today's world of muddled thinking and the quest for "spiritual experiences." Much of St. Theophan’s teachings come to us in the form of letters he wrote to lay persons so his advice is very practical and down-to-earth for those who are trying to grow spiritually. Unless otherwise noted, all quotations are from St. Theophan.

BEGIN: -- The true beginning of prayer is warmth of heart, which scorches the passions and fills the soul with joy and gladness, strengthening the heart with an unshakeable love and with a firm assurance that leaves no room for doubt. The Fathers say that whatever enters the soul, whether visible or invisible, is not from God so long as the heart is in doubt about it and so does not accept it: in such cases, it is something that comes from the enemy. In the same way if you see your mind attracted by some invisible force to wander outside or to soar on high, do not trust it and do not allow the mind to be enticed by it; but immediately force your mind to continue with its proper work. Whatever is of God comes by itself, says St. Isaac, whilst you are ignorant even of the time of its coming. Thus the enemy tries to produce an illusion of some spiritual experience within us, offering us a mirage instead of the real thing – unruly burning instead of true spiritual warmth, and instead of joy, irrational excitement and physical pleasure which in turn give rise to pride and conceit – and he even succeeds in concealing himself from the inexperienced behind such seducements, so that they think his diabolic illusion is really the working of grace. Yet time, experience, and feeling will reveal him to those who are not altogether ignorant of his evil wiles. "The palate discriminates between different foods," say the Scriptures. In the same way spiritual taste shows all things as they are, without any illusion. (from St. Gregory of Sinai)

-- To make progress in prayer and to escape from illusion, self-denial is needed, which teachers us that nothing should be sought in prayer except attention. The work of prayer will become more simple and easy. Temptations will also become less strong, although they always accompany any endeavour. St. Nil Sorski and other Holy Fathers tell us that powerful temptations coming from the devil - temptations far beyond our strength – attack us if we seek to experience in ourselves the fruits of prayer of the heart prematurely. We seek these fruits too soon because – unknown to ourselves – we suffer from an exaggerated opinion of our own abilities, and from conceit masquerading as zeal. (from Bishop Ignatii)

-- Many people understand about the ultimate effects of illusion, for these are clearly manifest. What is more important is to learn how this illusion originally arises. It starts from a false thought, which serves as the foundation of all the delusions and all the disastrous infirmities that afflict the soul. A false thought in the mind already contains the whole structure of illusion, just as a seed sown in the earth contains the whole plant which will grow out of it. (from Bishop Ignatii)

-- If a man holds fast to tears of contrition, to prevent himself being carried away by the joy which he experiences in prayer, and so forming a high opinion of himself, then he possesses a mighty weapon against the enemy. He who preserves this joyful sorrow will escape all harm. True prayer, free from illusion, is prayer in which spiritual warmth, coupled with the Jesus Prayer, brings fire into the depths of our heart and burns up the passions like tares. Such prayer brings gladness and peace to the soul, and comes neither from right nor left, nor even from above, but wells up in the heart like a spring of water from the life-giving Spirit. This kind of prayer and this alone should you love and seek to keep in your heart, always preserving your mind from dreaming. Fear nothing once you have it, for He who said, "Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:27), is Himself with us. Whoever is attuned to this inner harmony and lives righteously and sinlessly, who has turned his back upon sycophancy and arrogance, will stand firm and suffer no ill even if a whole army of devils rises against him and brings innumerable temptations.

-- You ask why illusion comes during the practice of the Jesus Prayer? It comes not from the prayer itself but from the manner in which it is practised – and here we should observe the directions prescribed in the "Philokalia." These directions should be followed under the eye of a teacher who knows the correct way of performing the Prayer. But if anyone tries to practice it by himself, merely from descriptions in books, he cannot escape illusion. In any description only an external outline of the work is given: a book cannot provide all the detailed advice which is supplied by the "staretz," who understands the inner state that should accompany the Prayer, and so can watch over the beginner and give him the further guidance that he needs. He who practices this method of prayer without a guide to help him, is of course left with only the external activity and the various physical exercises. He conscientiously performs everything laid down in the books about the posture of the body, breathing, and looking into the heart. But since methods of this kind naturally lead to a certain degree of concentrated attention and warmth, whoever does not have by him a reliable judge, capable of explaining to him the nature of the change that has taken place in him, may come to imagine that this limited warmth is indeed what he is seeking and that grace has descended upon him, whereas in fact it is not there as yet. And so he begins to think that he possesses grace, without actually having it. Such is the nature of illusion; and this illusion will thereupon distort all the subsequent course of his inner life. That is why nowadays we find the "startsi" advising people not to undertake these physical methods at all, because of the danger involved in them. By themselves they cannot give anything of grace, for grace is not connected with external exercises, but comes down only into the inner being: on the other hand, the proper inner state will attract the action of grace even without such methods.

This proper inner state consists in practising the Jesus Prayer in such a way that we walk in God’s presence: at the same time we must kindle to fervour within ourselves the feelings of adoration and the fear of God, ceasing to pander to ourselves in anything, listening to our conscience always and in everything, keeping it unpolluted and at peace, and placing the whole of our life, both inner and outer, in God’s hands. When these spiritual elements are present, the grace of God, coming in its own time and absorbing them all into one, kindles from them the spiritual fire which is the token of the presence of grace in the heart. If we follow this way, it is difficult to fall into self-conceit. But even so it is better to have a guide whom we meet personally and who can see our face and hear our voice; for these two things reveal what is within. END

From "The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology," (London: Faber & Faber, 1966), pp. 264 - 269.

"The spiritual fire which is the token of the presence of grace in the heart," he says. Thus, if we wish to know, that is experience and preserve the "sensible" or "felt" presence of God, let us cultivate this spiritual fire, or inner "warmth of heart", which St. Theophan teaches.

According to many Orthodox sources, this spiritual "warmth" is often accompanied by a physical sensation of heat in and around the heart organ. There is an interesting study on the internet entitled "Metaphor or Experience?", which treats this question in some depth. It may be of some interest to you, and can be found at the following link:- >> http://www.cecs.acu.edu.au/wprpspapers/Hisamatsu.pdf <<

While all St. Theophan's writings are eminently practical and useful for modern day strugglers, (laity, clerics, and monastics alike,) his two books on "The Path of Prayer" and "Kindling the Divine Spark" are especially focused on the inner work of cultivating spiritual zeal, warmth of heart, and continuous penthos toward God.

Blessed Seraphim Rose laboured and reposed in the same spiritual stream as St. Theophan, and manifests the deep influence(s) of the latter in his own spiritual thoughts and writings. Here is a transcription of a talk given by him, (at the Monastery where he laboured for Christ,) entitled, "Raising the Mind and Warming the Heart", which I highly recommend to all Orthodox Christians, despite it's "informal" nature:-

The theme of Fr. Seraphim’s talk is the basic message that he reiterated throughout the latter part of his life: that the faith of Orthodox Christians must be living, warm and deep within the heart, rather than cold, hard and external. He realized the importance of this idea through his long and arduous years as a missionary, which gave him a penetrating awareness of the needs of contemporary Orthodox Christians and dangers they face.

"(-Start-)...

1. Faith and Reason

The writings of the Russian philosopher Ivan Kireyevsky contain some basic ideas which are very apropos for us today. The usual argument between faith and reason, he wrote, is not correct. Reason is such a thing that it must be raised up to a higher level, and this is what the Orthodox Church tries to give. By itself, reason does not offer any more than an understanding of this two-dimensional, corporeal realm, with which most of the critics and scholars of the West are occupying themselves. There is something, however, above this. According to Western thinking, if you go "above" this, you usually have to deny reason and "jump into the dark." In Orthodoxy this is not so, for the reason itself is so exposed to Truth that it begins to be elevated above itself.

We will examine how this point relates to contemporary Orthodox Christians, and especially to missionary-minded converts.

2. Missionary Fervor

There is much discussion in the Orthodox world about the need for people in the West to be converted, for more services in English, for overcoming ethnicism in the Church. This positive missionary fervor is a very good sign (except, of course, when negative comments are made). In fact, as Archimandrite Constantine (of Jordanville) often said, the best time for missionary activity is right now, because the less Christian America becomes, the more the Orthodox mission increases. Our positive missionary fervor, however, must be guided by an awareness of the times in which we live, so that we will know how to save our souls and save others.

It is natural for those who are in the Church of Christ, realizing what it means to be Orthodox, not to be satisfied with just having it for themselves. Knowing that Orthodoxy is the Truth for all peoples, they want it for others: for their own friends and relatives, and for whoever may have their heart open to it. Yet, as we look about us today, we see the Orthodox Church so hemmed in by Communist persecution in one place and by worldliness in another. The situation is, of course, worse in the West, which is occupied by worldliness. Under Communism, one can suffer for Christ and at least bring something good out of that; whereas, under the influence of worldliness, Orthodox Christianity loses its savor and the believers become just like anybody else. In the latter case, many Protestants put many Orthodox to shame, since they have fervor and love for Christ without even knowing what the Church of Christ is.

These situations, however, should not cause the slightest difference in our missionary fervor. (And the same may be said for the situation, faced by many English-speaking converts, of having to attend services in a foreign language.) We must remember that Christ expects from us not missionary fervor, but a changed life and a warm heart. The missionary fervor is on a secondary level, on the external side. We see numerous examples of people with great missionary fervor who did not place first the internal side of changing themselves, warming their hearts and raising their minds to a higher level, as Kireyevsky describes. These people became "burnt out" and fruitless, and some of them even left the Church.

3. Setting Priorities

How does one begin to place first things first? We can learn from problems in contemporary Orthodoxy which show the results of setting wrong priorities.

Our Brotherhood is in contact with many people in Greece, and we receive very heartfelt letters from them. They tell us important things about the present state of Grcece, where, since the 1920's, there has been a division between the new calendar Church, which goes the way of the world, and the old calendar Church, which wants to he faithful to the Holy Fathers. Lately, the old calendar Church has been getting some influential converts, and they have a fervent missionary spirit similar to that of our young Americans who want to open up Orthodoxy to their fellow countrymen.

Where can this fervor lead? In Greece, fervor for the canons and the Holy Fathers has produced some extremely unpleasant, bad results. Group after group begins to cut themselves off because they consider the others not fervent enough. Each one accuses the others of not emphasizing the right things, of not having the proper relationship with other Orthodox Churches, etc.

There is one tragic case of a very sophisticated Greek theologian who left his jurisdiction because, in the altar of one of its churches, there was an icon of the Holy Trinity showing God the Father as the Ancient of Days. "Uncanonical, " he said, "the canons are against it!" His action indicates that something was not being placed first. It is strange not only because this man was very learned, but also because he was living in a country that had been Orthodox for nearly two thousand years. What chance do we have in America, which is almost pagan and not enlightened by Orthodoxy, if advanced people in Greece are like that? *

4. Human Opinions

We have a friend on Mt. Athos who has been observing for many years the situation in Greek monasteries. He goes to places where, for example, someone has become a famous elder and has many disciples. Having observed these elders, he often concludes that the people are imagining and creating fantasies, just like anyone else. They have opinions which they put into the air and surround someone with them, and suddenly he becomes a "holy elder" and they all flock to him. Actually, there is no reason for this—there are many holier people that they pay no attention to. On Mt. Athos this can be seen in the case of an elder named Theodosius, a very holy man who wrote a diary about how he prayed the Jesus Prayer on a very advanced level. No one knows anything about him, while everyone knows about certain others because someone has "put them into the air" and everyone follows that particular opinion.

Among us Western converts to Orthodoxy, this tendency—to find an opinion someone has put into the air and begin to run after it—is very strong. This, however, is not what we should be doing. We should be using our minds, trying to raise our hearts to a level where we can feel more deeply about Orthodoxy. It is required of us in these times to be extremely discerning.

5. Recent Fathers

The pitfalls mentioned thus far, which in Greece have led to schisms among people who have been Orthodox all their lives, are caused by an absence of that which Kireyevsky was writing about and trying to promote. The particular clergyman whom we know on Mt. Athos, after observing all kinds of factions, fights, "holy elders " and so forth among the Greeks, says that there is something basic missing in them: they did not have, in the 19th century, Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov and Bishop Theophan the Recluse. [l]

These two figures were living witnesses of what Kireyevsky was writing about. They were recent Orthodox Fathers in Russia who were thoroughly steeped in the spirit of the Holy Fathers. They spoke to people in the language of their times, a period very close to our 20th century. All the temptations of our times were known to them, especially to Bishop Ignatius, who read all the Western writers, was himself an engineer and knew all the latest theories of mathematics and calculus. Knowing the present situation and the whole of modern Western wisdom, they set forth the Orthodox teaching for these times and answered all kinds of arguments. Bishop Ignatius, for example, wrote a volume on hell and the state of the soul after death, elucidating Orthodox teaching in a way that can be understood by Western man.[2] These Fathers, as well as others who have read them and followed them, hand down Orthodoxy to us in a very accessible way.

6. External Wisdom

If the authentic spirit of Orthodoxy is not transmitted to us like this, there is a temptation for us to be following "external wisdom," the wisdom of this world. We will then, in coming to Orthodoxy, go after external things: good icons, beautiful Church services according to the Typicon, just the right kind of chanting, tithing, having beautiful churches.... All these things are wonderful and good, but we can approach them without placing first a warm, Christian heart and a struggle with ourselves whereby we are made humble. If we neglect this essential priority, then all these wonderful external things can, as the philosopher Vladimir Solovyev describes, be put in a museum of Orthodox antiquities—and the Antichrist will love this.

The Antichrist must be understood as a spiritual phenomenon. Why will everyone in the world want to bow down to him? Obviously it is because there is something in him which responds to something in us—that something being a lack of Christ in us. If we will bow down to him (God forbid that we do so!), it will be because we will feel an attraction to some kind of external thing, which might even look like Christianity, since "Antichrist" means the one who is "in place of Christ" or looks like Christ. In such a way we will entirely lose our salvation, going after he who is in place of Christ, and who will lead us away. The Antichrist can come, of course, only after the whole world has heard of Christ; therefore, the final choice is made between Christ and the Imposter, and almost the whole world will follow after the Beast.

How do we keep from doing this, from following "external wisdom"? We can be caught up in it, it should be noted, even if we become caught up in exalted ideas. It is in the fashion now to learn about the Jesus Prayer, to read the Philokalia, to go "back to the Fathers." These kinds of things also will not save us—they are external. They may be helpful if they are used rightly, but if they become your passion, the first thing you are after, then they become externals which lead not to Christ, but to Antichrist.

If you get all excited about having the right kind of icons and begin saying, "There's an icon of the wrong style in your church! " you must check yourself and be more careful, because you are again placing all your emphasis on something external. In fact, if there is a church with nothing but icons of the latest "approved" style, one might justifiably regard it with suspicion. There is a case (one of many) in which a church had old, original Russian icons —some good and some in rather poor taste, painted in a relatively new style — and a zealous person took them all out and put in new, "traditional" style paper icon prints. And what was the result? The people there lost contact with tradition, with the people who gave them Orthodoxy. They removed the original icons which believers had prayed before for centuries.

An icon is first of all something to be prayed before. This was once affirmed by Archbishop John (Maximovitch) [glorified as a Saint in 1994 by the Russian Church Abroad—webmaster], who was the president of a San Francisco icon society dedicated to the restoration of old icons. One member, who was very zealous for the old icon style, wanted the Archbishop to make a decree in the diocese that only old style icons are to be allowed, or at least to make a decision that this was the officially approved position. In a way, this man's intention seemed good. Archbishop John, however, told him, "I can pray in front of one kind and I can pray in front of another kind of icon." The important thing is that we pray, not that we pride ourselves on having good icons.

So far we have been citing contemporary examples of "external wisdom" in Orthodoxy, but there are profitable illustrations of it in the past as well. One of these is found in the spiritual counsels of Abba Dorotheos, a 6th-century desert Father from Gaza. "I knew a man, " writes Dorotheos, "who came to a miserable state. From the beginning, if one of his brethren said anything to him, he used to say, 'Who is he? He is not Zosimas or one of his lot.' Then he began to cheapen them and to say, 'There is no one of any importance but Macarius,' and after a little while, to say, 'Who is Macarius, anyway? There is no one any good, except perhaps Basil or Gregory.' And then in a short while he began to debunk them, saying, Who is Basil? Who is Gregory? There is no one who counts but Peter and Paul.' And I said to him, 'Really, brother, you are going to despise these soon.' And believe me, after a short time he began saying, 'Who is Paul? Who is Peter? There is no one but the Holy Trinity!' And so at last he lifted himself up against God—and there he gave up!" [4]

This monk ended as he did because he began with self-love in his heart and did not really want to change himself; he wanted to follow after some kind of external thing. We see this same attitude nowadays, expressed something like this: "Everybody knows St. Symeon the New Theologian. Oh, yes! We'll run after him. St. Gregory Palamas. Yes! Oh, he's all the rage! Yes! And all the hesychast Fathers.... Hesychasm! and Jesus Prayer," and other advanced subjects — all this is on an external level.

7. Being Linked with the Past

Such considerations should cause us to value even more the Fathers of recent centuries (not that we should make them a fashion, too!), who transmit Orthodoxy to us and teach us how to soberly approach the Fathers of earlier times. We have to look at ourselves: if we see that we have zeal for Orthodoxy and yet are not "linked" with the line that goes back to Ignatius Brianchaninov and Theophan the Recluse, there is a danger that we might not be linked to all the Fathers. [5] There should be a continuous line.

We may still find "ordinary" parish priests, some of them from the Old World, who would never think of making schisms and factions, or of excommunicating someone over questions of strictness, who are extremely longsuffering, who often do not say much and are therefore criticized or overlooked. These criticisms are superficial: we ourselves must be looking deeper to find something in these pastors and in the Church, something that is not too obvious outwardly —this very "link" with the past.

You will not find many people who will explain it in detail like this. You have to, wherever you might be, try to receive those things which cannot necessarily be communicated in words. These things are the very characteristics which come from a warm, loving heart: longsuffering, patience, fervor (but not of such a kind that it begins to be critical of others).

As soon as you begin making such statements as, "These people aren't doing this as they should," you have to stop and warn yourself. Even if it is true—as is often the case to some degree—this critical attitude is a very negative thing which will not lead you anywhere. In the end, it may get you right outside the whole Church. Therefore, you have to remember not to judge or think yourself so wise that you "know better." On the contrary, try to learn, perhaps without words, from some of those people whom you might be critical of.

Our zeal and enthusiasm must be tempered by wisdom that comes down to us through Ignatius Brianchaninov and Theophan the Recluse, perhaps even through the simplest parish priest, in ways which we have to be subtle and refined enough to discern, even if we are not told.

8. Overcoming Hard-Heartedness

What Kireyevsky says is very important: we should start developing within ourselves an Orthodox philosophy of life. It is all there in the Holy Fathers, but we must have the right reason for turning to them. You can open the Holy Fathers and have the same problem you have with the Scriptures: you need someone to interpret them because you find something unclear, or you don't have the whole context, or you don't know how to understand what one Father said as opposed to another Father and you think they might disagree, and so on.

There can be a whole realm of confusion in the Holy Fathers, and thus we have to approach them not with our ordinary rationalistic minds. We must be trying to raise our minds up to a higher level; and the way to do this is to soften the heart and make it more supple. There are many examples in the Protestant world where people have very soft hearts and are, out of love for Christ, kind to other people. We should not, as Orthodox, think that we can be hard and cold and correct and still be Christians. This is not basic Christianity.

A pre-Christian philosopher in China named Lao Tzu taught that the weakest things conquer the strongest things. There is an example of this here at our monastery: the oak trees, which are very hard and unbending, are always falling down and breaking their limbs, while the pine trees, which are more supple, fall down much less often before they are actually dead.

We can see the same thing in human life. The person who believes in something so passionately that he will "cut your head off" if you disagree with him, shows his weakness. He is so unsure of himself that he has to convert you to make sure that he himself believes. The contemporary forms of "super-zealotry" in the Church which are propagated by people who want so desperately to be on the right side, are in fact bowed up with weakness and insecurity.

The need to be "right" is again on the external side of Chritianity. It is important, but not of primary importance. The first priority is the heart, which must be soft and warm. If we do not have this warm heart, we must ask God to give it, trying ourselves to do those things by which we can acquire it. Most of all, we have to see that we have not got it—that we are cold. We will thereby not trust our reason and the conclusions of our logical mind, with regard to which we must be somewhat "loose". If we do this, entering into the sacramental life of the Church and receiving the grace of God, God Himself will begin to illumine us.

9. Simplicity

Although all the perils we have mentioned may sound frightful, they are actually not. The question is an extremely simple one. Because we are so complex, with our modern, cold minds, we think we have to find the answer some place and point it out with our fingers. Complexity enters in when we think of ourselves as, smart.

The one thing that can save us is simplicity. It can be ours if in our hearts we pray to God to make us simple; if we just do not think ourselves so wise; if, when it comes to a question like, "Can we paint an icon of God the Father?" we do not come up with a quick answer and say, "Oh, of course it's this way—such-and-such Council said so-and-so, canon number so-and-so." And so either we, "knowing" that we must be right, have to excommunicate everyone else—in which case we have "gone off the deep end"—or else we have to stop and think, "Well, I guess I don't know too much." The more we have this second attitude, the more we will be protected from spiritual dangers.

Accept simply the faith you receive from your fathers. If there is a simplehearted priest near you, give thanks to God. Consider that because you are so complex, "intellectual" and moody, you should be able to learn much from him. The more you grow in Orthodoxy by reading and exposure to Church and contact with Orthodox people, the more you will be able to "feel your way" in the whole realm of Orthodoxy. You will begin to see the wisdom behind things and people you had dismissed before. You will begin to see that even if the people who are the "links" to the past are not consciously "wise," nevertheless, God is guiding the Church. We know that He is with the Church until the end; there is no reason to "go off the deep end," to fall into apostasy and heresy.

If we follow the simple path—distrusting our own wisdom, doing the best that we can, yet realizing that our mind, without warmth of heart, is a very weak tool—then what Kireyevsky talked about will begin to happen: an Orthodox philosophy of life will begin to be formed in us.

We are confronted with the same obstacles Kireyevsky faced, only to an even greater degree. Living in the midst of Western culture, we have to try to assimilate a philosophy and theology which has come from almost 2,000 years ago and has become totally estranged and foreign to the world. Our Orthodox philosophy must not become part of some kind of cult or sect, but rather part of our daily life. By taking one small step at a time and not thinking that in one big leap we are going to get anywhere, we can walk straight into the Kingdom of Heaven—and there is no reason for any of us to fall away from that." ( The End )

This talk (with its explanatory Endnotes) can be found here:- >> http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/rose_raising.aspx << More is provided at these two links:-

1 - Orthodoxy in the USA

>> http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/orth_usa.aspx <<

2 - Excerpts from Blessed Seraphim's Writings

>> http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/frseraphimspeaks.aspx <<

In the above talk, we can see the emphasis is on the interior work of cultivating and preserving spiritual zeal, warmth of heart, and a deep missionary fervor for transmitting authentic Orthodox Christianity. With that end in mind, I post this final link to an excellent essay on "The Restoration of the Orthodox Way of Life," compiled from the writings of Archbishop Andrew of New-Diveyevo. This little work, doubtless, left a deep and abiding impression
on the heart and mind of Blessed Seraphim Rose:-

The Restoration of the Orthodox Way of Life

>> http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/restoration.aspx <<

This little work is a spiritual gem, in the rough, and should be perused often by all Orthodox Christians, in my humble estimation.

Humbly in Jesus,
Theophilus

(Message edited by theophilus on 10 January, 2005)

[Ken McRae]

Forgive me, Sue, for imposing on your patience, again, but I thought this little spiritual gem, by a humble Coptic monk, named Fr. Matthew (the Poor), might be of some help, as well, both to you and the other board members. I'm posting it in this thread, as it falls under the one and same mystery of godliness, concerning the purpose of God behind spiritual desolation, or aridity of soul; and how to endure this painful affliction in the meekness of Christ.

Coping with Spiritual Paralysis

Periods of Impasse, of Oppressive Grief, of Darkness Engulfing the Soul are Inseparable Parts of Religious Life. By Father Matta El-Maskeen (Matthew the Poor) of the Coptic Church

(Reprinted from Orthodox Prayer Life: The Interior Way with permission of St. Vladimir's Seminary Press.)

>> http://www.beliefnet.com/story/132/story_13250_1.html <<


“For the enemy has pursued me; he has crushed my life to the ground; he has made me sit in darkness like those long dead.” (Ps 143.3)

In times of spiritual aridity, prayer does not stop. There is nothing to demand that it stop, since the entire soul is still inclined toward God and righteousness. It is not as if it has lost its power or will to strive or to pray, for spiritual aridity has no effect except the absence of the solace, pleasure, and loving encouragements that are the companions and fruits of prayer.

Spiritual languor, on the other hand, affects the will. Here, the attack is aimed even at our attempt to pray and to persevere in prayer. A man may stand to pray, but he finds neither words to say nor power to carry on. He may sit down to read, but the book in his hands turns, as St. Isaac the Syrian says, “into lead.” It may remain open for a whole day, while the mind fails to grasp a single line. The mind is distracted, unable to concentrate on or follow the meaning of the words passing before it. The will, which controls all activity, is impotent.

Although the desire to pray is present, the power and will to do so are absent. In the end, even the desire to pray may fade. Man becomes unable and unwilling to pray, adding to his suffering and sorrow. His problems seem entirely insolvable.

If man tries to plumb the depths of his soul, he finds himself at a loss, for its depths are beyond his reach. It is as if his spiritual footing has been lost, alienating him from the essence of his life. If he tries to examine his faith and secretly measure it in his heart, he finds that it has died, gone. If he knocks at the door of hope, if he clings to the promises of God he had once cherished and lived by, he finds in what he used to find hope has now turned to ice. Hope is stuck in the cold present and not willing to move beyond it.

The enemy seizes this opportunity, striking with all his firepower. He launches an offensive—to convince man of his failure, of the ruin of all his struggle and effort. The enemy tries to persuade man that his whole spiritual life was not true or real, that it was nothing but fanciful illusions and emotions. He clamps down on man’s mind that he might once and for all deny the spiritual life.

Yet, amidst all these crushing inner battles, the soul somehow has an intuition that all these doubts are untrue and that something must exist on the other side of the darkness. It also feels that, in spite of itself, it is still bound to the God who has forsaken it. The soul continues to worship God without realizing or even wanting to! Deep within, far away from the mind’s eye or discernment, the heart continues to pray—albeit it is a prayer that gives him no comfort or assurance.

When the enemy seeks to deal his fatal blow, trying to force the soul to renounce its faith and hope, he encounters no response. The soul may give in to the enemy in the battle of the mind in complete surrender and to the farthest limits of error. But it is absolutely impossible for the soul to take action, for at the point where imagination and thought turn into action, the will springs forth like a lion out of his den to terrify all the foxes of corruption.

Hence, behind spiritual languor there exists a relationship with God that, though inactive, is real and still very strong, stronger than all the whispers of the devil. Yet until the decisive moment of danger, this relationship sleeps. This relationship remains hidden from the soul. It is vain to try to convince a soul of its existence, that the soul might rely on this or reassure itself of its presence. For in this tribulation, the soul is called to stand alone.

The soul remains within the sphere of God’s dominion. Although unaware, it is still making progress and on the right path. It is still led by an invisible hand and carried by an unfelt power. The tangible proof for all this is the extreme, constant grief of the soul over its fall from its former activity, zeal, and prominent effort into its present state.

The movement of faith was born one day within the heart of the pilgrim, now on the trek whose final destination is God. Faith was lit like a lamp with the light of God. It was kindled by love and zeal and has pushed the soul forward on its march. The pilgrim must not believe that this movement can be abruptly withdrawn from the depths of his heart, that he can be left in such sudden emptiness.

It cannot be assumed that a man will constantly see or feel the light or warmth of God. Yet both are constant and active, both in the light of this life as well as in its darkness, its coldness as well as its warmth, its happiness as well as its grief. The way of the spirit is not to be measured exclusively by periods of light, warmth, joy, or fruitful activity. Periods of impasse, of darkness engulfing the soul, of grief which oppresses the heart, periods of coldness paralyzing all spiritual emotion are inseparable parts of the narrow spiritual way. Such conditions seem adverse, painful, and deadly. What matters is how we face them. This is what determines our worthiness to proceed further, completing the blessed struggle until we receive our crowns.

This debilitating languor of the spirit is by far the direst tribulation of the soul, indeed the climax of its purging experience. It is similar only to death. Only under the wing of the Almighty’s perfect providence can man withstand such a trial, for during this ordeal the soul in its grief, like Job, reaches the point in which it yearns for death.

During all these torments, the afflicted person is not totally deprived of the hope of God’s mercy. He never stops looking up toward God, even on the verge of despair; rather, he waits for a great and wonderful salvation. Inasmuch as the tribulation presses hard, his soul becomes clearer and purer. The vision of the Almighty’s majesty is unveiled, together with the intensity of his love and faithfulness toward the human soul. Previous sufferings seem to fall like scales from the eyes of the soul. It is here that the soul builds up its faith in God. It is not on the basis of blessings that pass away, on protection and visible care, nor on tangible evidence or reasonable proof, but on “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb 11.1).

In the same way, every soul that loves Christ will be, without exception, vindicated at the end. No matter how bitter the spiritual experience, it still knows its final share. It crawls forward, injured but looking toward Christ. The soul, the forsaken beloved, calls to him who has bought her with his blood, never once swerving from her trust in her Lover.

Trust may fade from view but is never lost. Faith may sometimes come to a halt but never comes to an end. Feelings of love may sink out of sight, yet they are still preserved in the depths of the soul to spring forth at the end of the trial with an invincible power.

[sue moore]

Dear Theophilus,

The posts you put on the board spoke exactly to my situation and were immensely helpful and a great encouragement and blessing.

I' m removing the tv from my house tomorrow (as I have tried to distract myself with it). I would appreciate your prayers that I would be finally free from it. Again, thank you very much for your assistance.
Sue

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Sue,

On the issue of icons and imagination, the following website clarifies some aspects:

http://www.arimathea.co.uk/icons.htm

Yours in Christ,
Byron

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Sue,

I myself came to Holy Orthodoxy from an Evangelical Protestant background, in which much-ado was made of being able to sense "the presence of the Lord", or that of the Holy Spirit. So; How do I deal with imagination now?

Somewhere along the steps of your life in the Orthodox faith; if it hasn't happened already, you will undoubtedly hear that regardless of our own "feelings", we must submit to the teachings of the Church. The danger of following our own individual thoughts, are clearly seen in the proliferation of Protestant denominations, a large number of which are present because what one person thought to be the correct interpretation of a passage didn't jive with what their church authorities taught. In short, heresy and pride.

The issues of our current day, are "nothing new under the sun", as they -excluding maybe abortion and HIV- were dealt with by the Early Fathers, and subsequently the Ecumenical Councils.

Our Faith does not tell us to deny the reality of our feelings; such as the debate of what you're tasting when you receive the Hosts of the Eucharist, our faith supercedes feelings. An excellent primer on this is the 11th chapter of Hebrews, which mentions what happened to the faithful of the Old Covenant, which concludes by saying "...of whom the world was not worthy."

My main objective these days is not the feelings generated from participation in the Divine Liturgy, but the words I desire to hear when I'm judged, "Well done thy good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of thy Lord."

Much of being able to sense the presence of the Lord has been promulgated through the auspices of the Charismatic denominations of Protestantism, but it was while on the fringes of one such denomination, that God began to get through to my mind/nous/heart (as I think I've said here before), the power of a godly life. Again, the plain teachings of Holy Scripture, and of the Church come into play at this point. We can in no way, imagine the things which Christ has done for us, or prepared for us, but ; we have Holy Tradition -the Scriptures and the writings of the Fathers- to teach us, and show us the way of faith more correctly.

I make this one caution: There's enough information out there to make you cry "uncle", or at the very least enough to make your head spin. Digest what is applicable to you in small bites, in consultation with your priest!

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Owen Jones]

I believe that the word imagination probably has a technical meaning for the hesychasts that is not exactly what we might think of the word meaning today. I think it means something like "images in the mind of unreality" I don't think it means, "can you imagine how glorious heaven is?" There is a chapter in St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain's Spiritual Counsels, entitled, "Guarding the Imagination."

[Ken McRae]

After some disquietness of heart over this post, I thought it only proper to remove it. It was proud for me to have posted it at all, and I now regret it. Pleae forgive my haste, once again. I have a long way to acquire heart-stillness, if ever, I do. ~ T.

(Message edited by theophilus on 13 January, 2005)

[Moses Anthony]

This begins to look as if it's a political campaign; i.e., statement and rebuttal.
Conviction of the HOly Spirit, is in no way imagination., neither is following the teachings of the Church analogous to "denying" the 'feeling' of conviction.

Being committed as I am to a godly life, and not focusing upon feeling the "presence" of the Lord, does not mean that correlate to me saying that I'm against feeling convicted, joyful, repentant, or anything else , nor that anyone who does have more of such in their lives are under spiritual delusion. Although my head is shaved, I'm pulling my hair out. Aggghhhh If you were to go to the archives you would read where in debate with Owen, I've referenced the passage where the shama is told as "loving the Lord our God with all our heart , soul, mind body, and strength. AGGHHHH, Charlie Brown, man I understand now!


the sinful and unworthy servant

[Ken McRae]

>>"This begins to look as if it's a political campaign; i.e., statement and rebuttal."<<

Not so much a rebuttal as a reply, albeit very lengthy, rough and unedited. It was quite late in the evening when I set to work on it, and wanted to get it posted, before retiring ; but after having re-read it again tonight, I now wish I had waited. I apologize for making haste. It could use some serious editing, I'm afraid, to make it both more cogent and concise; but since, it's currently 1:00 am where I am, and I arise at 5:00 am for work, that'll have to wait 'til tomorrow.

In case you're wondering why I'II even bother, though, it's because I feel it addresses a fundamental misconception about "feeling" in the "spiritual" life. "Much-ado" ought to be made about sensing the presence of God, and its central importance ought never to be minimized, IMO, on account of Protestant distortions. God has plainly declared that he wishes us to "feel" after Him, as indicated in Acts 17:27 :-

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands (v.24); Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things (v.25); And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation (v.26); That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might +feel after him+, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us (v.27): For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring (v.28)" (Acts 17:24-28)

While we are called to "feel" after God, this is not to deny there are certain perils involved, or spiritual rocks that require an experienced guide to navigate us through on our journey toward complete and perfect union with Him. If perfect union with God in the Spirit of Love is indeed the goal and end of our spiritual life, then it is a fundamental error, IMO, to relegate spiritual "feelings" to a secondary (let alone insignificant) place, which is what it appeared to me that you were doing. God is love, and thus we are killing ourselves to participate in Love, which requires pure heartedness, and thus pure feeling(s), insofar as the heart is the proper seat of our feelings and affections.

According to Heb. 5:14, "Strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." The term "senses" employed here I take to mean or include "feelings" as much as anything else. The "feeling" or "sense" of your original post was that "feelings" were more often than not misleading and therefore to be ignored at best, if not entirely shunned. If there are but three things, namely faith, hope and love, the greatest of which is love, then I ask: how is it that "faith supercedes feelings?" According to Galatians 5:6, true faith generates pure and right feelings, and that love without which true faith cannot live or act.

What, though, is the nature of faith itself, if not some sort of "feeling", intuition or vision of God? When we speak of seeing with the eyes of faith, what do we actually mean? And what is "intuition" if not a feeling of some sort? 1 Tim. 3:9 says that the mystery of faith is held in a pure conscience, but what is conscience if not an ability to "feel" divine conviction? But if it feels divine conviction, then it feels God himself, I say, for the conviction of the Spirit is the grace of God, and thus His uncreated energy. And if we are feeling "uncreated energy", then we are feeling God Himself. And it is this feeling, of the energy of the Spirit, that actually gives rise to faith. Hence the word of the Apostle that "the mystery of faith is held in a pure conscience (1 Tim. 3:9)."

>>"Conviction of the Holy Spirit, is in no way imagination., ... "<<

I am glad to hear it, truly, but you seemed to imply in your previous post that this was somehow different or distinct from "sensing" the presence of God; and that by trying to "sense" God's presence, that is, feel the liberty or conviction of the Spirit was somehow to open-up oneself to misguided thoughts, imaginations, and feelings. By all means, correct me here if I'm wrong, please! You said:- "How do I deal with imagination now? ... regardless of our own "feelings", we must submit to the teachings of the Church. The danger of following our own individual thoughts ... etc." Now this appears like you're associating "our own feelings" with "our own thoughts" and "imagination", as though they were somehow all the same. Have I misinterpreted your post?

>>" ... neither is following the teachings of the Church analogous to "denying" the 'feeling' of conviction."<<

One could say it's a "no-brainer" that any "feeling" which goes contrary to the teaching of the Church is not from God. That goes without saying, I should think. In that sense you were right to say that "regardless of our own feelings, we must submit to the teachings of the Church," assuming those "feelings" you refer to are clearly in opposition to Church teaching. However, because such sinful and misguided "feelings" can and will occur in times of weakness and temptation, that is not justifiable reason or grounds, IMO, for not imitating Blessed David of the Psalms is seeking the "sensible" presence of God in your life.

I remind you, though, of the teaching(s) of St. Theophan the Recluse, Archbishop Andrew, and Blessed Seraphim, on cultivating and preserving "warmth of heart", which is in effect, a manifestation of God's "sensible" presence. Your position seems to collide with theirs, in my eyes, insofar as it seems to put greater emphasis upon the external or "objective" work of God in the Church than upon His internal or subjective work in your own soul.

>>"Being committed as I am to a godly life, and not focusing upon feeling the "presence" of the Lord, does not mean that correlate to me saying that I'm against feeling convicted, joyful, repentant, ... "<<

While you may not be "against feeling convicted, joyful, repentant, or anything else," neither are you focused on this either, insofar as you are'nt focused upon feeling God's presence and power in your soul.

>>" ... nor that anyone who does have more of such in their lives are under spiritual delusion."<<

Clearly, though, you seem to imply that by consciously and deliberately seeking the manifest or "sensible" presence of God in the soul is somehow a misguided endeavour; hence your choice to not make it your "focus" in life; whereas it clearly was the Psalmist's undivided focus, as I pointed out. And truly it is that which we are all called unto, insofar as we are called to be perfectly united to God in every way possible for deified humanity.

[nurse-aid]

Awaking early, opened eyes, and opened all my sense…
I breath, I move, I still alive, because God IS with me!
The prayers deep, without words, beyond all thoughts and doubts!
It carries me, it rhythms my heart, because God IS with me!
That song, inside me feed me well, its also keep me warm!
All fears and all earthly storm under my feet, because God IS with me!
Dark under me, behind my back, its only wants to bite!
But fruitless all attempts and fail! Because God IS with me!
And you can see and you can touch that joy which only Truth!
You cry and weep for them, who here, who have their closed eyes!
You carry on, all heavy job, misunderstood and curs, for them, for all,
For one day cry: I’m not alone, no more, I see, because God IS with me!
And then one after one, we’re will to fight! Because we have a might!
Because so many voices now sing so bright: God is with us! Not just with me!
That quer of voices touch the sky, its going high and high!
Its touch HIM deeply and HE cries from Might: I’M with you because you ARE with ME!

[Moses Anthony]

I say emphatically, no insinuation of any form: YES, the conscious striving after feeling the "presence of God, can lead one to prelest/delusion. I do not say however, that wanting to feel His presence is misguided, To me this seems as though it should be simple, basic stuff.

God always deals with a person at some point of obedience or disobedience. First Moses climbed the mountain, then he removed his shoes, then he conversed with God. It was only after years of this practice that Moses had the nerve to ask God to reveal Himself to His servant.

Travelling through the desert, for the Israelites it wasn't a matter of sensing the presence of God, rather, it was a matter ot their being obedient to His commands.
How often can I say it: BALANCE,BALANCE,BALANCE. When we do what God requires on a consistent basis, that is when the perceptions of our soul more readily pick up the nearness of Our Lord. And this too, is nought but a gift of His to the redeemed soul.

I cannot think of any point in all the posts which I've made since joining this forum, where anyone could miss what I believe about feeling the presence of God. Let anyone of us sin, and I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts, you would feel the removal of His nearness. Conversely it is true that as we obey His commands, more and more of the filth of sin is removed, and we draw that much closer to Him. Forgetting what lies behind, I press on that I may progressively, become more intimately acquainted with Him.

I am only a miserable and unworthy subdeacon, but this really does seem to me, to be basic stuff.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Ken McRae]

St. Seraphim of Sarov on Acquiring the
"Sensible" Presence of God

The following four passages are from the Little Russian Philokalia, Vol. 1:-

001 - The true aim of our Christian life consists in the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, they are only the means for acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. ( p. 79 )

002 - God is a fire that warms and kindles the heart and inward parts. And so, if we "feel" in our hearts coldness, which is from the devil - for the devil is cold - then let us call upon the Lord, and He will come and warm our hearts with perfect love not only for Him, but for our neighbor as well. And from the presence of warmth the coldness of the hater of good will be driven away. ( p. 23 )

003 - This warmth in not in the air but in us. It is that very warmth about which the Holy Spirit in the words of prayer makes us cry to the Lord: 'Warm me with the warmth of Thy Holy Spirit!' By it the hermits of both sexes were kept warm and did not fear the winter frost, being clad, as in fur coats, in the grace-given clothing woven by the Holy Spirit. ( p. 103 )

004 - When the mind and heart are united in prayer and the soul's thoughts are not dispersed, the heart is warmed by spiritual warmth in which the light of Christ shines, making the whole inner man peaceful and joyous. ( p. 30 )


Now, unless I've misunderstood the "basic" teaching of St. Seraphim, our every thought, word, and deed ought to have no other end in sight than the acquisition of the Holy Spirit; which acquisition is "sensible", manifest, and felt by us, when finally attained.

I wish to add nothing more to this, for how could I? Here I stand, by God's grace. May he have mercy on me, the chief of sinners.

In Christ's humility,
Theophilus

[Moses Anthony]

PRAYERFULLY THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THIS PARTICULAR THREAD

With all due preference to the Holy Fathers: One of the ways in which debate in the Early Church was hopefully concluded, was by making reference to the Church Fathers.

these are words from the post you, o Theophilus made on Monday, January 10th, 2005


'...we must kindle to fervour within ourselves the feelings of adoration and the fear of God, ceasing to pander to ourselves in anything, listening to our conscience always and in everything, keeping it unpolluted and at peace, and placing the whole of our life, both inner and outer, in god's hands. When these spiritual elements are present, the grace of God, coming in its own time and absorbing them all into one, kindles from them the spiritual fire which is the token of the presence of grace in the heart...."

But, what has this banter meant, to those who have read the posts in this thread. Differences of opinion, lively debate in the spirit of Christian love, an impasse of minds concerning two sides of the same issue, I do not know! I can see however there's nothing to be advanced by continuing.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Herman Blaydoe]

When the mind and heart are united in prayer and the soul's thoughts are not dispersed, the heart is warmed by spiritual warmth in which the light of Christ shines, making the whole inner man peaceful and joyous.

St. Seraphim of Sarov, Little Russian Philokalia, V. 1

[nurse-aid]

When mother nurse her child...do the child ask about or worry it will be enoght for next time?
It's working both way..the more child put enegry to get...the beter result is...
If he will be able to think and worry about next feeding time...it probobly would stop him from his job and then he will REALLY got nothing...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/sad.gif