Conversion

[demetrios karaolanis]

Were all of you born into orthodox families? or did you convert on your own? how did the people around you react to your new faith?

[Laura]

I converted..following my Mum and Dad who became Russian Orthodox a few years previously.

I think that the choice was more or less mine though, it's merely that I was more aware that the Orthodox church existed than the average person in the west. Oddly enough it was reading 'Elected Silence' by Merton that solidified my somewhat jerky progress towards a faith.

As for how people have reacted. Most people are fine, ranging from curious and attending with me to outright ambivalence. I've only recieved the odd comment and none of those were meant seriously.

[Joseph Suaiden]

I converted on my own. My wife eventually came to Orthodoxy. My family still refuses to accept my faith and sneers at me. It makes practicing it as difficult as possible, though likely not intentional. It is my prayer that I become as well-adjusted in the Church as possible so that my family line is an Orthodox one in the future. Nothing is worse than children leaving a religion because their parents appeared to lack conviction by their conversion, and then the subsequent fascination with their new faith.

Joe

[John Wilson]

Dimitri, when are you going to register on this forum properly once and for all?

I converted on my own though it has been a long slow journey. But living ten years in Greece made it difficult for me to avoid asking myself the question, "What is the church?" though I did an admirable job of avoiding it for the first few years. I praise God that he brought me to Greece so that I might experience first hand what I may never have bothered to in Australia, despite my wife being Greek! Heh, she was baptised orthodox at 45 days but went to a catholic school when she grew up in Australia. We met in a Baptist church! So our journey to Orthodoxy has been a joint one and we are continuing to grow together in holiness (though we cannot really claim to have made much progress at all). My wife was actually taken completely by surprise when I stated my wish to become Orthodox last year.

John

[demetrios karaolanis]

I have just filled out the form for registration. I guess I had not really realized I had not done it. I don't have the confirmation letter yet so I an still on as a guest.

I ask because I come from a radical protestant background and all of the people around me sneer as well. none of them really even know much about it and they really do not care to. I just try to make a difference by letting people see the difference my faith has made in my life. I wanted to start a thread to see if everyone else had had a smooth conversion or not. I see some have, and some have not. I guess I am one who has not, however I do not let that hinder my ways and the way I practice my faith. I am gladd noone else here seems to either.

[John Wilson]

My biggest issue is how to introduce my Mum and Dad and my brothers and sister to Orthodoxy as they are all (except for my sister) pretty full on evangelicals. I have not yet stated outright to them that I have become orthodox although I'm pretty sure they have figured it out. If they misunderstand the orthodox church as I had in the past, they are all probably praying fervently for my deconversion. They are all in Australia and I'm here in Greece so I'm pretty insulated from their concerns as they are from mine. I want so much for them to discover for themselves the great richness of orthodoxy as I have.
John.

[demetrios karaolanis]

I have problems like these as well. members of my family would never even listen to me either. they would think I was in a cult or something. I just try to show them how great of a faith it is, because they really do not know much about it. I just wish that they would convert to bring us closer together in one church. the people in rural america here have little interest in orthodoxy and the churches are sparse. I discovered orthodoxy in my studdies of theology and loved what I read. I read more deeply into it and studdied for years before finally deciding it was for me. my family will probably always be sceptical toward it.

[Owen Jones]

Orthodoxy is to be found in all of the Biblical passages that protestants fail to underline. So it is a more complete version of the true Biblical witness.

However, I heard a very good aesthetics of Orthodoxy from a priest friend. If I wish to drive from my town to Atlanta, a VW will get me there. But if I have an opportunity to drive a Rolls Royce......!!!!

Or as the late, great Southern agrarian Allan Tate once put it, American Protestantism is half a horse. It will get the plowing done with utility, but what about the form of the animal?

[demetrios karaolanis]

that's what I mean there is a certian beauty and deapth about orthodoxy that you just do not find elsewhere. a great amount of devotion and piety and love of god.

[John Wilson]

Still off topic but following this line of thought. Something that made a big impression on me is that the orthodox church does not just give you the theory but also gives you the practical means to make it a reality in your life. No more of the protestant understanding that once you pray this prayer, you skip school and university and immediately receive your degree in holiness. No, orthodoxy enrols us in school and helps us to grow in holiness, providing us with great teachers and tutors in the saints, both through the reading of their lives and through their direct intercessions for us. We are given the means by which we might control and subdue our passions and bad habits. More than anything else though, we are nourished and cleansed and strengthened by the source of all holiness, by the body and blood of Christ.

sigh, how full of pride I used to be, "knowing" that I was "saved". Praise God for his mercy towards sinners like me.

[Owen Jones]

Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread, but I would be interested in hearing from people who are single who have no immediate urge to get married, and are even beyond the conventional age for marriage. I read about the demographic crisis among white Europeans, and no doubt a lot of this is due to materialism and self-centeredness, but I see it as more than just another obvious example of the secular crisis of the West. I see it as a spiritual opportunity to witness. And I think there are a considerable number of people who just want the simplicity that comes from being single, and are not playing the field. Maybe they are not yet thinking of it as a Christian virtue to remain single.

[sinjin smithe]

Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread, but I would be interested in hearing from people who are single who have no immediate urge to get married, and are even beyond the conventional age for marriage. I read about the demographic crisis among white Europeans, and no doubt a lot of this is due to materialism and self-centeredness, but I see it as more than just another obvious example of the secular crisis of the West. I see it as a spiritual opportunity to witness. And I think there are a considerable number of people who just want the simplicity that comes from being single, and are not playing the field. Maybe they are not yet thinking of it as a Christian virtue to remain single.

I think that it would be a good idea. I don't know if I would exactly fit your desired criteria Owen but I am single and I have no immediate urge to get married.

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

I am responding to Owen's suggestion for a new thread extolling the positive virtues of not seeking the married state, for whatever reason.

For many of us the reasons for this may lie in early life experiences; I mean birth family or its subsititutes as well as unhappy later forays into relationships. But the outcome does not have to mean desolation. It is a fact that marriage (or cohabitation) is not right for everybody, and particularly so for those who most definitely do not want to propagate the species. That is the negative driver, and is not in any way meant to denigrate the importance of holy matrimony per se.

The positive driver is the desire for salvation, moral betterment, self-improvement, or any intermediate point along that continuum. This can be achieved far more easily for some (and yes, I am one such) without the constant and distracting requirement to consider the needs, wishes, and thoughts of a partner, however dear s/he may be.

Being alone is very conducive to clear thought, and to developing a prayerful disposition, so long as it can be managed and viewed as a positive state of existence, whether wished for as a goal desirable in and for itself or simply accepted as one's lot in life. But the hermit life could easily send some people into a depressive decline, for which reason hermits have often kept a companion animal or bird.

I have three wonderful rescued cats who help prevent what in the (western) monastic life is called accidie (or taedium vitae). It has taken a lot of love and daily care to meld them into a mutually accepting community, but that has proved so worth while. There is a welcoming living presence in my home on my return. And when they die there will be other cats to rescue. Maybe that is my mission in life after all: for some, it's kids, for others, felines.

the seeker

[Justin]

I am a convert. Most people in my life had no reaction at all to my conversion. Here's a quick going over of the people who did express something above a typical "Oh, ok, whatever that means, it sounds nice" response:

A paraphrase of what my grandmother (non-practicing cradle Catholic) said: "Why are you becoming Orthodox? There's a Greek [ie. Eastern Catholic] Church right down on the highway. Why would you want to drive all the way to Altoona to attend an Orthodox Church? You were baptized Catholic you know?"

My best friend, who is a very pious (if a bit fundamentalist guy in a Wesleyan Holiness movement, was a bit put off, but overall supportive. He didn't like the "arrogant" tone he got from some discussions he observed. I think he only accepted my offer to go to an Orthodox Church once, after which he said something like "It was very melodic. Interesting pictures," and then went on to compliment the ability of the choir.

My uncle, a very pious Catholic, and half-decently knowledgable about his faith, was happy to hear that I was becoming Orthodox.

My mom was, I think, scared at the time, because I was asking questions like "what would you think if I became a monk?" but overall didn't really have an opinion. Her comments about the few services she attended with me were something along the lines of: "It's nice, if that's what you like."

When I told my (at that time) Wesleyan Pastor that I was thinking about becoming Orthodox he said that "I'd be back" and that I was "making a big mistake". Of course, the eschatology of his denomination paints Orthodoxy/Catholicism as going into utter corruption in the fourth century, so that reaction was to be expected.

By far the most negative reaction I got was from a friend who I had been going to Church with. I had essentially led this fellow into this denomination, and he had even begun participating more fully in the Church, even playing drums during worship services. (Ok, have you settled down yet? ;) ) He didn't take news that I was leaving very well, especially since it came just as I was returning from a year at the denominational college. We went for a walk one late chilly evening before work (we were working together at the time), and he "let me have it".



So why did I say all this? Just so you know, if you're experiencing indifference, or perhaps some hostility, you're not alone. Most people don't even know what Orthodoxy is, and don't care enough to find out even if you're willing to tell them. I've found, though, that the most supportive people are usually the ones who are the most pious, sincere, and loving (of whatever denomination/church). Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's been my experience.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Richard,

I hardly think the quote from St. Symeon reflects a morbid hatred of family. It simply reflects the necessary courage it takes to pursue a higher calling. I often hear the lament of people who compare themselves to monks and ask what is wrong with them that they are not living a perfect life -- and are they somehow condemned because of that, and, it seems to me, this line of thinking always reflects some kind of dualism which is contrary to the Gospel. Besides, the hatred of one's own parents that Christ requires of us in order to follow him is not a psychological resentment, is not morbid, but simply a way of getting our attention on the Kingdom of God where it belongs. After all, one of the commandments is to honor our father and mother. So let's try to get at the spiritual point and not intellecualize it into an unsolvable conundrum. It is really a call to action.

[demetrios karaolanis]

I think that people should honor thier fathers and mothers but I do remember a certian verse which went something like this. if a man will not forsake his parents for my sake then he is not worthy of me

[Hermit]

1. It is one thing for those who are called to become the bride of Christ in the monastery to indulge hatred of family and friends in order to make a cleaner break with the world; but what does all this have to say for the weaker soul who must live in the world? Is the weaker one in error because he cleaves to his family?


Matt 10:37 is a bit hyperbolic, not meant to be understood with a wooden literalness, as we can see by the preceding verse about Jesus not coming to bring peace. If we took it too literally, we would be breaking the commandment to honor our parents, as has been noted:

Matt 10:34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[ 19:29 Some manuscripts mother or wife] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.


If we make exceptional sacrifices for God in any of several ways (not just entering a monastery) we will be rewarded. Just as with a human body, the Body of Christ has many different cells and organs ... some spread the gospel in various ways, some visit the sick or those in prison, some feed the hungry, and most must do those things in addition to work. Paul was not a monk, but a tentmaker, and yet how many monks or hermits have been greater than him?

Simply do what you are called to do in the best way you can.

[Oana Vlad]

I didn`t know where to post this topic...I just wanted to tell you that 18th of January is the first day of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, which will end on January 25th. May our prayers help us all on the road of love and reconciliation among churches.

Oana

[Richard McBride]

HELP! Belay that message! I overshot the runway!
Re: 17 January, 2003 - 9:18 pm: Questioning Saint Symeon ala the Family;

Forgive me dear Monochos readers; I have just won the award for Loose Cannon of the Day; and you should be wondering what you have done that the Holy Spirit would allow me to dump on you that way?

Even Seraphim’s gentler-than-normal barb did not awaken me at the time (he merely said, “I hardly think the quote from St. Symeon reflects a morbid hatred of family.”) Seraphim should have hit me with a broadside!

Now that I have finally read what I sent in that message (apparently, I have the unhappy ability to write messages while unconscious), I am trying to figure out what sort of delusions possessed me at the time. Obviously, one of Saint Symeon’s demons was let loose in me for tampering with his words.

I recall at the time, that I was obsessed with the word, hate. I was imagining from earlier readings of those passages that he had used the word in his admonitions against familial influences on the aspirant monastic. But upon rereading, the word hate is obvious by its absence from the portions I quoted. And it only emerges in the succeeding paragraph, number 9, used exactly in the form given us by the Lord Himself and Saint Paul: “He who would hate the world must love God from the depths of his soul and always have Him in mind”.

Alas, there can be no excuse for this awful aspersion I have cast upon the Word (by attacking His Saint). I beg your forgiveness, Dear Monochos Readers; and I pray that the Holy Spirit and the Thetokos will prevent me from operating in such a fog again.

Richard
(Perhaps, I may be allowed to extend the NT use of “family” in a different and cleaner context.)

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

I was chrismated in 1995 because I loved the faith as I had discovered it through the 80's and I had grown weary of the Anglican Church ever delivering the "real thing" and then always finding myself expending huge amounts of energy defending something many people neither understood nor really cared about.

Several factors conspired to make me Orthodox over the years ... a strange love for the Russian people (I suppose this was God's little gift to me) and a fascination for and love of Russian liturgical music ... a strong attachment to the Trinity and the resurrection of Christ which I found to be severely attenuated in western Christianity ... and, finally, a sense of heaven in Orthodox worship.

Since becoming Orthodox I have changed so much although a lot of this has been quite painful and unforseeable. I think (hope) I am becoming more compassionate. I still struggle with "trying to make an impact" rather than just being faithful.

My wife and daughter became Orthodox with me and have taken to the faith very naturally. My parents, (mother only alive now), thought I was crazy and surrendering my intellect in becoming a Christian in the 70's. My mother is better adapted to this now more especially since I have become Orthodox ... but only because I have left the Anglican Church which for some unknown reason she has great difficulties with.

Most people in the UK haven't a clue what Orthodoxy is. If they don't think you're Jewish they think you belong to some sort of strange cult or sect.

We have a lot of catching up to do. Mission is not yet on every jurisdiction's agenda as it should be. It might help if fewer Orthodox communities here shared Anglican buildings. There might then be less looking nervously over the shoulder at our Anglican brethren wondering if they would mind if we evangelised on "their turf" ... or Rome's depending on the point of view taken.

When Antioch landed here with English use missions it rattled a lot of people. They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and I am pleased to say now that there are more English use communities than there used to be. Unfortunately Orthodox unity is weaker here than in the US. We need something equivalent to SCOBA and the inter-Orthodox societies appealing to constituencies other than the academic. Many Orthodox (sadly) still have a diaspora mentality.

[Richard McBride]

Beloved of the Lord, Father Gregory:

We pray that your new Temple flourish in the midst of the heathen, and that the Lord give you and the Khouria ample love and help, and many years to accomplish your mission.

Either your message or your web page mentioned that you used Archbishop Dimitri's Service Book. That is interesting. I have not taken up this translated work of the Archbishop's, but I have met him and attended several services "with him" (which is to say, at the same time and place), both in his new Cathedral and other temples. And since you are using his service book, it causes me to wonder if you have looked upon Bishop Basil's "The Liturgikon", used officially by the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America? Also, I wonder if you have taken up Seraphim Nassar's "Divine Prayers and Services", used in this same Archdiocese?

But now that we are in the second week of the Triodian, it reminds how difficult it has been for new churches to obtain good translations of Eastern tones into Western notation. Metropolitan Philip's Byzantine Project has transcribed the whole Season, from Triodion to Pentacostarion, and it chants nicely -- not quite as sound as the Greek, done in the Byzantine style, but still, its a very nice introduction for cantors and duplicates the Byzantine Tones respectably.

Such issues as these come to mind, since I have been involved with several new churches, both Western Rite and Byzantine. So, forgive me if my questions seem too forward. Contrarily, if you would like, I can email you a few pages of the Triodion tones to check out.

How wonderfully blessed you and your family are, to be in Orthodoxy. But the burden of a priest is far more than I could bear.

I pray to Saint Ephraim the Syrian for spiritual help to aid you in your mission.

richard

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

Dear Richard

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.

We have not been directed by our bishop to use any particular music in the Antiochian Deanery here. Some parishes use modified Greek chant, (homegrown and published), others Obhikhod. The style is quite eclectic. Our bishop said in the beginning that we should give time for a tradition to evolve in the UK.

We devour any good English translations of texts and we are amply supplied now, (although the English used often leaves a lot to be desired). Most of our parishes use "traditional" English. The Liturgikon governs our liturgical use for the most part.

We do not have any western rite parishes.

God bless you in your work my friend. You are correct .... the work of a priest has many consolations but it is a heavy responsibility. The Lord gives sufficient to all our vocations wherever we might be.

Thank you for your prayers. I pray for you also.

[Elisabeth]

>Father Gregory,

Could you elaborate a bit about your comment 'Many Orthodox (sadly) still have a diaspora mentality'. I don't think I understand and it might help with something I have to write. Thanks

Elisabeth

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

Certainly Elisabeth ...

When Orthodox Christians first came to the west they were conscious of being immigrants with an immigrant religion. This was reinforced by an indigenous Christianity that was not Orthodox and at the same time presented (at best) indifference or puzzlement and at the worst ... hostility or patronising attitudes from the Established Church (UK). The first Greek (not Cypriot) congregation in London tried to share use with an Anglican building and were told by the then hard line Protestant Anglican bishop of London that this would be OK provided they didn't install any icons in the Church! (Even still many Orthodox communities share Anglican buildings ... there's nothing wrong with that ... in one particular case we Antiochians do ... but we don't let that inhibit ouir missionary drive.

Old attitudes persist do persist amongst the Orthodox. As recently as 1995 (when I was chrismated) I heard an Orthodox priest confide that he could not toll his bells because "only Anglicans were allowed to do that." Poppycock! That's an old and redundant piece of legislation which is as meaningless now as the old statute that all young men of military age must receive long bow training for a certain number of hours a week, (remember Agincourt? !!!)

The historical legacy of all of this has been a "guest mentality" arising from a certain sense of "second class" Christian citizenship. Basically, you don't abuse the "hospitality" of your host (the Church of England) so you minister to your own only and you certainly do not engage in mission within and to the indigenous culture and people. This historic pressure from Anglicanism (now more of a "gentleman's agreement") aligned itself with the confusion of Orthodoxy with Hellenism or Russophilia .... the idea that GREEK or RUSSIAN Orthodoxy was the bearer of a certain national culture which, by language and custom, had to imparted to future generations as the cult of a "nation within a nation."

Back in the 1970's (I think) a leaked memo from the Anglican authorities in London referred to "we don't want a third Catholic church in this country." Within recent memory a certain Orthodox bishop had to be returned in ignominy to Greece because he was allegedly overheard to have made an indiscreet remark about a certain Anglican bishop.

There is also a Roman Catholic version of this nonsense that argues that since England is a schism within a schism the Orthodox should not missionise because that would be to trespass on "Roman territory." I have actually heard these sentiments expressed at quite a high level!

The outworking of this diasporal mentality and lack of self confidence has been utterly disastrous for Orthodoxy in the west. I enumerate the following:-

(1) Little or no mission to the non-Orthodox population. Any mission is resisted by certain Orthodox and other Christians alike as "proselytism." Their seems to be a (wilful?) inability to see that UK is now arguably a post-Christian nation and its inhabitants can no longer be thought of as belonging to the Church of England .... more especially since Islam is now numerically stronger than Methodism. We do not "sheep steal" but we certainly regard all others as belonging to a common mission field.
(2) A confusion of the faith with a (perceived) alien culture. This has become more dire in the last 20 years as politically correct multiculturalism has actually encouraged the Orthodox to stay in the ghetto. (The more exotic the better).
(3) The alienation of Orthodox young people (who think of themselves as British or American rather than Greek or Russian) from the Church .... more especially since many of them (with, often, their parents) only understand what is going on in church from the ritual only and not from the words.
(4) An invisibility in the public domain ... so until recently the Orthodox were not present at the Cenotaph service in London for the fallen of the wars, they were hardly ever represented at other public or state occasions and their voice has been rarely heard on important issues in public debates and the media etc. etc.

Even in America where Orthodoxy is numerically stronger (but not more ancient) the National Cathedral authorities (Episcopal) in Washington "forgot" to invite Orthodox representation in the immediate post 9/11 memorial service and in this month's Scientific American magazine a survey of the present American religious scene entirely omits the Orthodox even though we are more numerous in that country than the Jews who did get a mention.
(5) The heresy of phyletism in the sense of nationally inspired (and tenaciously held) overlapping jurisdictions. The Greeks bang the drum about one bishop in one city (which is, of course, correct) but then go on to say that they, primarily, should be fulfilling that role. In consequence, Orthodox unity is put even further back because other jurisdictions are not going to play that game. Canonically it can only be justified anyway by regarding the west as "barbarian lands" .. a term crafted in the time when the Pax Romana of the Empire knew where it started and finished, (in civic and ecclesiastical terms). Things are not like that now. It's an anchronism but a useful at one at that to an increasingly hard pressed Phanar in Turkey.

The tragedy is that the Ecumenical Patriarchate could and should have a crucial and pivotal role in furthering Orthodox unity. Many Orthodox would expect that to come from Constantinople. However, it will require a totally different strategy than the one currently in place to achieve it.

So how about being positive? Absolutely! We need Orthodox unity and Orthodox mission .... desparately .... but that will only come when Orthodox people (including hierarchs) get round the table and pray and love each other into dismantling the walls of separation that have been built through years of historical circumstance and false adaptations to bad and uncanonical situations. Everyone has to advance equally and humbly together. The need for this is urgent.

As Christianity outside Orthodoxy in the west progressively collapses, what shall we say to the Lord at the Judgement? "Well, sorry Lord, we had to keep our own show on the road," or perhaps:- "We're sorry we kept everything under wraps but people wouldn't like us if we did anything else." Do you think that he is going to be impressed by that? I don't think so.

Don't get me going on this one. What I have said here is quite mild for me!

[Owen Jones]

Thanks, Fr. Gregory. I will see you and raise you one on all of your comments. The most spiritually vibrant churches in America (one "convert" parish I can think of in particular) are typically quashed by the Bishops because it makes them look bad. When a bishop comes to the U.S. who is saintly, he's not invited to preach or attend coffee hour (a wealthy Serbian cathedral I know of). The bottom line is that religion is an ethnic phenomenon in the contemporary world and not much else. American protestantism is really an ethnic, social club. Catholicism in America is essentially an ethnic social club (Italian-Irish blue collar). Greeks came to the U.S. to get rich. Period. That doesn't discount a lot of individual piety. But institutionally it's a disaster all round.

Ultimately there will be a spiritual revival in the West, since you simply cannot go against human nature for ever. But will Orthodoxy have anything to offer when it comes?

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

Dear Owen

Good to talk with you again! If Orthodoxy doesn't, Islam will. The reaction in the west may well turn out to be a call to return to "good ole fash'n religun" of the legalistic and moralising sort. The simple "verities" of Islam will prove highly seductive to many. I get the creepy feeling we are in an analagous situation to that of the Byzantine Empire on the downward curve .... an incredulity that anyone could be anything other than Orthodox only that the precise OPPOSITE now applies .... an incredulity that any one would want to become Orthodox. That won't change until we change.

In order for there to be a release in the Orthodox log jam the people of God are going to have to apply the pressure themselves. They pay, they pray ... they can act. Clergy, on the whole can be pressurised and conformed, (if they want to remain canonical or mainstream that is).

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Well, I would like rspectfully to point out that at least 2 representatives of Orthodoxy are attending today's consecration of the new Archbishop of Canterbury.

the seeker

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. Gregory,

The pressure on the clergy to conform begins with his first parish council meeting after his first posting. Orthodoxy has to be different enough to be respected, but visible enough to be noticed.

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

Dear Margaret

Of course .... that's standard. I'm not talking about ecumenical protocol; I am talking about how each church sees itself and its role. I am a former Anglican priest having served on General Synod at a session when the Ecumenical Patriarch came to address us. I remember him mildly rebuking George Carey et. al. for ordaining women. That was to be expected. Of course, it made absolutely no difference to the Church of England whatsoever.

Anglicans often misread the Orthodox. Just because we have excellent ecumenical relations (for the most part) and attend all the big "do's" that doesn't mean that we are about to get married or that we somehow think of Anglicanism as an "orthodox" church in waiting in the west.

Dear Owen

That doesn't apply to the Antiochian communities in the UK largely because we are all pioneers who have moved together.

Money is a crucial issue. "He who pays the piper calls the tune." I think that it is vital that clergy are paid from the diocese not from the parish. We have a long way to go before we get to that position but we must make it one of our goals.

[Owen Jones]

Also, the Church has a profound shortage of religious vocations -- priests, deacons, monks and nuns. This is largely intended because of the presumed financial cost. But the really spiritually "successful" parishes that I have seen, largely convert parishes, have numerous priests and deacons, perhaps only one of which is paid on a full time basis. (one might be paid by an adjoining school). The rest allow for a full liturgical life plus different approaches to pastoral care, plus diffuse any resentment aimed exclusively at the rector of the parish. And don't even get me started on the lack of encouragement for monastic vocations, which is the key to any revival of Orthodox Christianity. The parish is not designed to go it alone -- it must have a higher standard to shoot for. Also, the idea of every parish priest having the gift of spiritual discernment is ridiculous. Only a very few have that, historically they are mostly among the monastics, and there must be some place where the devout can go for their spiritual guidance that is outside of the parish. I have met a few wealthy Greeks in the U.S. who have been profoundly influenced by the few steps taken here to seed Athonic monasticism in the U.S. and have supported it financially. Not with a whole lot of help or encouragement from the higher ups. Although I think some of the bishops are coming around.

[John Wilson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Also, the idea of every parish priest having the gift of spiritual discernment is ridiculous. Only a very few have that, historically they are mostly among the monastics, and there must be some place where the devout can go for their spiritual guidance that is outside of the parish.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Here in Thessaloniki we seem to go against the grain of history, or we are simply blessed with a great deal of spiritual discernment among our priests. Interestingly enough, it was a monastic who told me outright that my chrismation was not valid and I needed to be baptised. I don&#39;t believe it displays much discernment when one spiritual guide tells you to disobey what you were told by another spiritual guide. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.
I also disagree that people must find spiritual guidance outside their parish. You are less likely to feel accountable to a monk you see once every few months than you will be with the priest who gives you communion &#40;or doesn&#39;t, if need be&#41;.

Your servant, John.

[Owen Jones]

Your specific points are well taken John. I was just speaking in a very general sense. The idea that somehow parish life can possibly manifest the whole of Orthodoxy. WE can&#39;t really expect that.

[Marvin Vann]

I feel Richard was overly self-recriminating in taking back his posting on what, to a non-monastic layman convert, can appear to be sometimes extreme elements in Orthodox traditonal teachings on repentence and loosening one&#39;s bonds to &#34;this world.&#34; {http://www.monachos.net/cgi-bin/mb/show.cgi?tpc=4226&post=2725#POST2725}

I sometimes feel confused about applying the monastic emphasis on abandoning &#34;this world&#34; and its passions--and much of Orthodox ascetical writings and traditions, which seem aimed primarily at a monastic audience--to my life &#34;in the world&#34;.

More specifically: Orthodox monastic spirituality places such an emphasis on renunciation; I sometimes wonder if that is balanced by an emphasis on that with which we can replace what has been renounced.

The pagan Greeks of Antiquity had a concept of the &#34;return of the repressed&#34;--I think of Euripides&#39; play, <u>The Bacchae</u>--according to which the drives one might wish to repress for good reason &#40;i.e., sinful passions&#41;, if not addressed in some manner, will return all the more viciously. Our Lord seems to have evoked a similar truth in the parable of the clean-swept room re-inhabited by an even more numerous cohort of demons.

Of course, Orthodox spiritual writings greatly emphasizes the idea of transformation/ illumination, which comes about after renunciation. But, I would like more insight into the practical means by which passions and desires become transformed, as opposed to merely renounced and/or suppressed.

What writings might one turn to for insight into that?

[Owen Jones]

Dear Marvin,

You have to look closely, but there are two traditions in Orthodox ascetical theology, both centering around the classical concept of eros. One is that it must be repressed. The other is that it is transformed, that trying to repress it is unnatural because it is the presence of something holy that we simply misuse. I think we have to almost look at it on a case by case basis. Some people are naturally led to a kind of severe self-denial. Marine Corps drill instructors come to mind. Others are by nature drawn to express their eros and the trick is to express it in holy terms. The passionate state which all monastics tend to preach against is really one of instability and internal disorder, when we permit things to disturb us. That is the starting point for all of us. It is a spiritual axiom that when we are disturbed, despite whatever justification we might claim in blaming the behavior of others who have harmed us, the problem is within us. So try to go through a single day noticing your disturbances, calming them through prayer, and then asking yourself, what are the causes of those disturbances, really? The monastics would say that they are all the result of demonic influence. We must come to know our own demons on an intimate level, just as any military leader studies his enemy in order to defeat him. But we resist doing that. We would rather claim ignorance, or blaim our state of spiritual disturbance on environmental factors. That way we think we are not responsible. The summation of this ascetic warfare is what is termed in the Bible to be sobriety, which is a key concept in all monastic teachings, and is equally applicable to all of us, regardless of our situation or station in life.

[Andonis]

this inner disturbance, that doesn&#39;t go away is something i&#39;m finding very hard to deal with. this is because, i seem to be disturbed by so much, whereas many others around me would perceive all to be normal. i often find myself trying to mould myself to conform, and accept a situation that is disturbing me inside. even when i think i have sound reason to be dismayed. i also know, that if i was to follow my instincts that i would eventually discover peace. yet my pride and ego keep me prisoner of often what i deem unwholesome situations. these demons you talk about Owen are so good at keeping one very confused. i mean, how can one be sure that the inner voice is God speaking to you, and not merely some chemical imbalance of the brain?

[Owen Jones]

You cannot think yourself out of this problem, Andonis. It takes doing stuff. Simple stuff that Christ has commanded us all to do, and that we have no excuse not to do.

[Seraphim]

&#34;You cannot think yourself out of this problem, Andonis. It takes doing stuff. Simple stuff that Christ has commanded us all to do, and that we have no excuse not to do.&#34;

Such wisdom! And such truth. And to further comfort us &#40;or in many respects put in us the fear of God&#41; there is no such thing as conversion to Orthodoxy. It is a term I avoid using because if there are &#34;converts&#34; to Orthodoxy then surely this means that all Orthodox Christians are &#34;converts&#34; in the purest sense of the word. Nobody is born Orthodox - although we are all born in the expectation that we should serve God.

I do have a question however. And my question is: how are those people in India and Pakistan and other such religious places &#40;non - Orthodox&#41; expected to repent and become Orthodox when they are in such strict routines? And also those who live in remote locations where perhaps one has never even heard the name of Jesus Christ?

In Christ,
Seraphim

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

I suppose the only thing we can do is pray that God&#39;s will be done with them with faith that it will happen, I suppose we have to be patient, also ourselves have to repent,
With love in Christ
Charalambos

[Terry]

I converted on my own. I am 17. My husband is romanian orthodoxy, he did not make me, it was my decision. I converted two days ago acutally.

anyways , my mother was all for it, my grandmother who is pentecostal, she was sooo mad at me, she wouldnt talk to me. but we just explained to her, I did not change gods, i just changed traditions.

[Aaron Wake]

message deleted

[Olga]

Being called an atheist for wearing one's baptismal cross? Hoo, that's an interesting bit of logic! Terry's comment on changing traditions not Gods is spot on. Well done, Terry!

[Chrissi]

Were all of you born into orthodox families? or did you convert on your own? how did the people around you react to your new faith?

My mother converted two years before I was born. So, for me I have two very different sides of the family.

On my fathers side they're Russian Orthodox, and are very much involved in the Church and the events that surround it within Australia. During my visits to my aunt and uncle's place I am fascinated as they explain current Church-related issues to me. I feel like I belong so much in those situations, and am completely at ease.

On the other side of my family is quite a different story. None of them are religious, or go to church, except for weddings, christenings etc. During December of last year I visited my aunt and uncle in Melbourne (before going to the syezd), and sitting down to dinner one evening the conversation turned to religion (because it was, of course, Lent at the time and I had to keep making my own food, or advising them what I could actually eat). In particular they asked me why I was "bothering" to stay Orthodox. I found it interesting that they asked a (then) 17 year old girl why she was religious. I told them that the Church was my life and that it has never felt wrong to be Orthodox. They asked a few more questions, but then my little cousins needed attention.

At school I also had friends that used to chat with me about being Orthodox. They found it fascinating but said they wouldn't want to give up the way they were living.

So that would be the three differing views on my being Orthodox.

In Christ,
Christina