What should be our relationship with God the Father?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Here is one of "those" types of questions. We know as Orthodox something at least of the relationship we are supposed to have with Christ and with the Holy Spirit. Christ is the Pre-eternal Logos Incarnate come for our salvation. About the Holy Spirit we pray "O Heavenly King Comforter, Spirit of Truth..come and abide in us." But what of God the Father?

As the years have gone by I noticed that I was relating in an unthought out way to God the Father almost as if He was the 'apophatic' part of the Trinity. Yet is this correct? We know Christ through the Holy Spirit... but increasingly I wonder, "what of God the Father? What is supposed to be the nature of our relationship with Him?" Connected to this is what are the relational characteristics in regards to us by which He is known and by which He is distinct from Christ & the Holy Spirit? I have tried to pay attention to the writings of the Holy Frs, saints and also more contemporary Church writers but here again it seems that few if any seem to address this.

So I am wondering what any of you think.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[James H.]

This may sound like a dumb question, and very sophomoric, but is it that we know the Son through the Spirit as Fr. Raphael writes? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm really asking. I mean, it makes sense and I suppose I always thought of it that way without ever really thinking it out in words, but then that leads me to think of the Filioque. I really don't want to debate this point, but there is a popular school of thought in the West (even in the time when the Filioque was first introduced to the West) that said (and says) that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and THROUGH the Son (and there it is even suggested that this is what the original latin text was meaning to express, but some small but important gramatical point was overlooked). That is, He originates from the Father and never from the Son. Without getting into an argument as to whether this really is a sincere Catholic interpretation of the Filioque, wouldn't the fact that we know the son through the Spirit suggest that He proceeds from the Father and THROUGH the Son (I see that this reverses the roles, but maybe it is a two way road). For saying that we know Christ through the "Comfortor" tells me that there is an intimate relationship between the two persons (I guess it would seem like blasphemy to suggest that they DONT have an intimate relationship.) I hope someone is following me. If you are, bear with me here. (and I realize that my thoughts here lack some coherency)

Perhaps what I said about the Spirit proceeding from the Father and through the Son is not correct (although we know it is at times as He breathed the Spirit while He was on Earth, but perhaps this is not so as a general rule). Perhaps the Father is percisely HOW we know Christ. Christ and the Spirit both originate from the Father, and perhaps it is because of this that we know Christ: The spirit shares an intimate relationship with the Son but always THROUGH the Father. There is a point to my madness here. My idea is that perhaps ONE of natures of the Father is to be that liason, that center of God... a type of... Nucleas?? O God, please forgive me where I err. I am completely aware that I have probably come close to or have exctly stated some deep heresies, although I'm not sure which ones. Don't worry, I would never "teach" anyone this. I am bringing up these mental blurbs in Monachos precisely so I can be corrected.

Fr. Raphael, I know that I didn't shed any light on your question, but I am very interested in what an Orthodox response would be to your post. I've never really thought about it. I kind of think it's going to be one of those simple answers that, in the end, make me think, "yeah, that's it... I guess I always felt that way but didn't know how to put it into words." Or... maybe not.

Sorry if I caused any one intellectual trauma with my post here. ;)

In Christ,

James

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Do you mean that the Father makes the Son known to us through the Holy Spirit? Something like this thought was roaming about at the back of my mind. Is it the Father's will that we focus on His Son? And of course this is connected to salvation for Christ Incarnate does show us who are created the Way. If this is so however there would be some sort of incredible humility on the Father's part.

He is James as you write, " My idea is that perhaps ONE of natures of the Father is to be that liason, that center of God... a type of... Nucleas??" although if I remember correctly from seminary the theological term we were taught is that God the Father is the monarchical principle of the Holy Trinity.

But that God the Father is supposed to be known by us in some way is revealed to us through the words of Christ Himself when He says, "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Mt.11:27)" So it seems that only through knowing His Son can we come to know the Father.

I have been reading through the Gospel of Matthew a bit where one comes across many cases of Christ speaking about God the Father, eg, "For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them."(Mt. 6:32)

"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Mt. 7:11)
In these words one sees the Paternal love of God the Father for humanity. Indeed He wants them to become His children. How is this? By following His Son & by becoming members of the Body of Christ. But am I correct in saying that in more recent times we have forgotten about God the Father for some reason? Our focus on Christ & the Holy Spirit is certainly vital but do we not miss something from our Christian lives when God the Father almost disappears from our thoughts & prayers?

Secondly, is this forgetfulness of God the Father connected to the general tendency of our time to have rejected much that has to do with paternity and everything the relationships this implies?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Arsenios]

The prayer that came to my mind with this is the one that says:

My Hope is the Father
My Refuge the Son
My Shelter the Holy Spirit

One God...

The Prodigal Son was sent the grace of failure and remorse [the Holy Spirit] and turned to come Home, and the Father met him and embraced him before he even got home, but from afar [the Son - the Church, the Holy Body of Christ]... And these are but foreshadowings of the glody to come for the faithful... When we all come Face to face with God...

You may be right, Fr. Raphael, in that the Father may well the most apophatic of the Hypostasis of the Trinity, at least to us who are still struggling at the gates of repentance...

But Peter knew Who Christ is through revelation from the Father, upon which Christ built His Church... And may we ask, did Peter know that it was the Father Who revealed this to him? Or did he just have the revelation, not knowing if it was a gift of the Holy Spirit, a gift of Christ, or some image cast upon him by demons, who all knew Who Christ Is...?? We do know that Christ told him that it was the Father that had revealed it to him...

One of the Protestant criticisms we hear of the Disciples of Christ is that they were such a bunch of dunderheads when it came to understanding anything of Christ. Yet they were clean, and stepping into spiritual waters, and succeeding and failing, and learning to navigate and walk with Jesus - Peter even managed to walk on water a ways - And from the perspective of us beginners, not being aged monks at the pinnacle of their maturity in Christ and tried in the fires of the monastic life, we cannot know to differentiate what comes from Christ, what from the Father, and what from the Holy Spirit, short of being given that discernment from God... And nobody claims that...

All I can claim to know to do is repent and seek tears for my sins... Beyond this I truely have no warrant... And within it, I am overwhelmed...

I just know that "I believe in One God..."

Arsenios

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

What I am trying to say is that our relationship with & understanding of God the Father may be a little too 'apophatic'. In other words if we are missing this relationship is it due to what God Himself intends (how His providence guides us- that we are supposed to focus on Christ through the Holy Spirit) or is it because of something we are lacking?

Your comments George seem to point to it being a case of our missing something important. The verses I quoted in my previous post with Christ referring to His Father confirm your point. Also when you provide the wonderful parable of the Prodigal Son.

But one important point that could affect the answer to this question is: what about the strict injunctions against depicting God the Father in iconography? What does this mean concerning how we do or do not know God the Father?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[James H.]

Fr Raphael,

you have correctly stated what I was trying to say. I think I was saying a lot of other stuff too. It all made sense in my head at the time, but I don't know how to correctly put it in words... and to tell you the truth, I don't even care to anymore.

There were two lines in the posts by yourself and Arenios that seem to correctly identify the role(s) of the Father in as much as how we know Him (or do not know Him).

The First:

"one sees the Paternal love of God the Father for humanity. Indeed He wants them to become His children."

And then Arsenios paraphrases you and ads on a little disclaimer to the end that I like:
"You may be right, Fr. Raphael, in that the Father may well the most apophatic of the Hypostasis of the Trinity, [b]at least to us who are still struggling at the gates of repentance..."

Perhaps we only come to "know" him through repentance. The Holy Spirit calls us so perhaps even the unrepentant one has contact with Him (although there is no interaction) but without repentance, perhaps it first is necessary to except the Holy spirit's knocks on our doors. In the Parable of the Lost Son, the Father doesn't go out looking for him, but waits patiently. Guilt (not dispair) finally CALLED the son back home. I believe there are Church Fathers who associate the Holy Spirit with Guilt. That is completely foreign to our culture where no one should ever feel bad about anythig they are doing. But it is precisely this "feeling" that often calls us back home. If we ignore its calling we will fall into one of two dangerous and demonic traps: dispair or indifference.

Another point to think about it is what we consider to be the Greatest Prayer: the Our Father. Surely there are some of the greatest hints here as to the nature of His role. One thing I can mention (that most know already) is that "Father" in the original was actually something more similar to "Papa"- a much more intimate term.

Not to blame things on Catholicism, but I wonder if this change in nuance is due to Western Influence. What nuanced term did they use for "Father" in the earliest Slovanic version fo the Lord's Prayer? And in the Liturgical Greek? I ask about the earliest slovanic prayers because I know that there was later some of western influence on Russian Thought. Do the earlier Eastern Rites (or even some to this day depending on the language... like Arabic or Armenian?) preserve this nuance or is it the more formal "Father"? I know in Spanish, Italian, French and German (all western tongues) it is the equivelant to "Father."

Very interesting thread.

James

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

About the prayer Our Father. For years when I would say this prayer I used to wonder if the words "Our Father Who art in the heavens.." were words of address to God as Father or words which basically were a statement about God as Father. I don't know about the most ancient Slavonic form or if it was different from what we say now. In any case in the Slavonic "Our father" is in the vocative case (Otche nash) which means that you are addressing God the Father directly in this prayer & not making a statement about Him.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[matt]

Dear friends,
I have just read most of parts of the above posts, and maybe if I get the time in the upcoming days i write something more, but I just wanted to suggest one point, and that is that the whole concern of our relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit is the Father. Properly speaking in terms of the New Testament, esp St John's Gospel,I think it is correct to say that when we say God we really mean God the Father, not the Son or the Holy Spirit. Of course the Son and Spirit are God, but in the sense of our monarchichal trinitarianism. I think that this is the heart of Orthodoxy, although I may not be expressing it well or even in an Orthodox way!

When we pray, we of course pray to Christ or the Spirit (i.e. Jesus Prayer), but what is liturgical is typically to God as Father, through Christ and in the Spirit. Am I correct in this?

The tendancy to ignore that God is three in one (unitarianism) is at times overshadowed in Protestant prayer, and in my own "freestyle", and theology with a Jesus-only system of theology, which forgets taht Christ is not the focus as much as the Father. I know that even making distinctions can lead to silliness like, "Well, do you pray to the Father 51% and the other Two 49%?" I hope this is not how my point is taken. When we pray, or think, or speak about our God, we must in our deepest selves return to the revealed Scriptural God as prayed in the liturgy. Our thought of God as relvealed is often too Christocentric. This can sound downright heretical, I know, but read the GOspels and Paul and I think it is pretty well clear that while "we preach Christ and Him Curcified", the point is still at teh back of it all God the Father. when we read teh scriptures in this light, which is how I think much of patristic exegesis does, we reorder aright our notions of GOd the Father.

I cannot recommend enough a fabulous book by Marianne Thompson, "The GOd of the Gospel of John". It is very orthodox and can be prayed and read through at the same time. Great work!

Nuff said, hope it wasn't too off the mark!

MAtt

[Arsenios]

Fr. Raphael -

How on earth, in spirit, are we to discern the difference between the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit? In practical terms, we find the Son in the Church, which is His continuing incarnation... And we find the Holy Spirit when we are outside the Church, or perhaps away from it... Yet we find the Holy Spirit within the Church as well, and consistently so... And both of these are FROM the Father, and Christ tells His disciples that by having seen Him, they have 'seen' the Father... And as well, we have a great deal of imagery connected to the Church and to the icons of the Church, none of which depicts the Father or the Holy Spirit... And yet we find the Holy Spirit in the support we receive in the praxis of our faith, and in the struggles against our infirmities and sins... So that the action of the Holy Spirit, and the worship of the Body of Christ, are fairly familiar in certain ways, probably more so the more effectively repentant and mature in the faith that we are...

And yet the Father is utterly apophatic, in that we indeed have no image of Him, nor do we call out to Him for helps in our struggles with sin, for in these, we cry "LORD have mercy!" And Lord means the Holy Spirit and Christ... Yet when we ascend in wordless prayer into the heavenlies, where Paul wrote that he saw things of which it is not lawful to speak, then I think it is, in that apophatic form of hesychastic prayer, that we encounter the Father... And not having "gone there", I have no idea of whether or not this is true... Yet "My HOPE is the Father..." you see, and my hope is for a heavenly life... Where words are left outside our closet of prayer...

That is why I can only hope, and struggle at the gates of repentance, that I might mature enough in the faith to acquire the gift of knowing the One True God...

And I truely do question the value of the pursuit of the issue as a theological matter by speculation about it... If it is a matter of importance, perhaps a mature monk might be one to approach and ask... I know two who have "been there", but not at all casually, and am content to leave the matter in the good hands of future revelation, or not, as the case might be...

At this stage of my faith, I regard every noetic event as prelest, so as to have fighting chance of lifting my gates...

Arsenios

[Arsenios]

Fr. Raphael writes:


About the prayer Our Father...In the Slavonic "Our father" is in the vocative case (Otche nash) which means that you are addressing God the Father directly in this prayer & not making a statement about Him.

The Greek is the same. "Pater hmwn o en tois uranois" is a vocative title of address, because the article [ho] is in the center, and the whole of the address balances around it. Literally, it reads "Father of us, the [one] in the heavens..." And it is probably best translated "Our heavenly Father..." Clearly vocative... And not attributive... In the heavens simply designates WHICH Father we mean in our address...

"Let be made holy [within us] the Name of You...

"Let come the rulership of You [within us]...

"Let come to be the will of You [within us]...

"As in heaven...

"And...

"Upon the earth...

"Give to us each day our most essential [earthly] bread

"And forgive us our [earthly] sins, as we are forgiving all our debtors...

"And lead us not into perditious [earthly] trial, but deliver us from the evil one...

I love this prayer...

Arsenios

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear George,

You have written, "And I truely do question the value of the pursuit of the issue as a theological matter by speculation about it... If it is a matter of importance, perhaps a mature monk might be one to approach and ask... I know two who have "been there", but not at all casually, and am content to leave the matter in the good hands of future revelation, or not, as the case might be...".

But Our Lord Himself indicated that we should pray "Our Father"; and furthermore there are all of the references of Christ to His Father either directly or in parable. There are the many references to the Father in the prayers we use not to mention the most common, "Glory to the Father..." So the issue seems quite important not as a matter of speculation or reaching the highest mystical heights but rather as a question that relates to our everyday spiritual life.

So far the discussion has helped us I think to formulate the question a little bit clearer. On the one hand it seems we are commanded indeed to know the Father (how would we be commanded to call Him Father if know nothing of Him as children?) but on the other there seems nothing as direct as Christ's Incarnation or the ways in which the Holy Spirit works within the Church (eg the sacraments) and illumines us with the grace of spiritual understanding. In iconography for instance we are not to depict God the Father.

So how are these two apparently contradictory points resolved? As I said before I think it is wrong to say that God the Father is completely apophatic or represents the apophatic within the Trinity. Each Person of the Holy Trinity has an apophatic aspect and a knoable aspect (cataphatic).

So I am again back at my original question about how God the Father is known. Perhaps we could at this point even ask: are we missing something essential from our spiritual lives if we do not pray to the Father in the same immediate way as Christ & the Holy Spirit, if we are not trying to know Him in the same sense as Christ & the Holy Spirit?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Arsenios]

Fr. Raphael writes:


So I am again back at my original question about how God the Father is known. Perhaps we could at this point even ask: are we missing something essential from our spiritual lives if we do not pray to the Father in the same immediate way as Christ & the Holy Spirit, if we are not trying to know Him in the same sense as Christ & the Holy Spirit?

Fr. Raphael, perhaps you might ask your spiritual father this question, and then report back to us what he tells you...

I am but a poor sinner still struggling at the gates of repentance, and have no basis to approach such lofty issues as the discernment of the difference in spirit of the three Hypostases of the Holy Trinity, or of how to know the Father differently than knowing the Son or the Holy Spirit... These kinds of issues are far, far beyond my beginner level that is still floundering with simple repentance and an ascetic life...

I really do think that you would do well to ask someone mature in the faith, like your spiritual father, and not ask us beginners, for whom such questions are really not accessible, and if we try to speculate our way into some form of answer, we can only err to no discernibly profitable purpose.

If that kind of issue were dogging me, I would take it to an elder, and not to beginners like me...

Arsenios

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Fr. Raphael, George, et., all,

If per chance my words do not seem to be quite coherent, it may be to the fact that I'm very tired. Therefore, I ask your forgiveness.

The loftiness of the pursuit of "what should be our relationship with God the Father", I do believe is one which Almighty God Himself has births within us. Can God be known in relationship, in more than an apophatic manner, YES and NO. And should one wonder, "How can he say that?", let me point to a blaring reminder.

MY patron saint is Moses, Prophet and God Seer of Israel, of whom it's recorded in Psalm 103, "God made known His ways unto Moses, His acts unto the children of Israel." (v.7) In another place it says that Moses would speak with God "..face to face, as a man speaks with his friend." The emphasis here however, is not upon the man Moses,but upon God Himself. (Exodus 33, particularly verse 11) And; lest in a flurry of madness I forget, I should mention one other Old Testament witness to our struggle: "...Eoch lived sixty-five years and begat Methuselah. After he begat Methuselah, Enoch walked with god three hundred years... And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." (Gen. 5:18-24) The life and end of this man, obviously pre-figures that of my patron saint,(well, at least to me). And yet, (here's the no part) even with this apparent show of intimacy between them, it is all to plain in Holy Scripture that there remained between the Moses and God, a dark cloud of unknowing, where the essence of God's being remained hidden.

I again refer to a statement made by the Protestant men who wrote the much used book and manual, Experencing God: "Whenever God says something to us, it's His invitation for us to join Him where He is." Again, as with the man Moses, the initiative in this relationship belongs to God. And yet, the relationship is to be one of intimacy. Remember, God is a covenant God, who desires that our faults, weaknesses, strengths, friends and possessions become HIS, so that all which belongs to Him, we may share. (Rom.8:32, 2Peter 1:1-4) Having said that God is a God of covenant, please do not even begin to harbor the thought that this is another form of a legal, juridicial relationship. It is far removed from that.

It is my personal belief that the exaltedview of the Western approach to God -the three big O's- are the reason why they do believe it's not biblical to enjoy an intimate relationship with Almighty God. After all, you're talking about the Creator of all that is, you can't possibly be intimate with Him, and this in spite of the connotations of "Abba Father."

WE here below strive to "know as we are known", and this is granted to each according to their own ability, i.e.; their willingness to work out their own salvation. (In your question Fr. R there lurks the ambiguousness of the NOUS which I'm not about to enter).
As for 'this type of issue' being taken to an elder and not a beginner, is this not why St. Paul chided the believers, that they were still feeding on 'the milk of the Word', when they should have been digesting meat. I chose Moses; rather he chose me, because I long to be so intimate with The Father, as to know what His motive is, when viewing some act of His power. I believe that this is not just my invitation to join God where He is,in intimate covenant relationship, but that this has been thrown open for all who will enter therein, for it has not "...entered the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

Please consider the things which I've posted, knowing that I've only been in Orthodoxy since 1998, which as you can tell isn't long enough to know anything.

a sinful and unworthy servant
Moses

[Moses Anthony]

Fr. R.
As pertaining to your question about the phrase 'Our Father...', in the Our Father, from my perspective it's both. My own practice is that at times in private devotions I will say, "Our Father, who has given me life, and caused me to born again to a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, who art in heaven...." With me the vast majority of the time, it is addressed to Him.

a sinful and unworthy servant

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have been reading through the Holy Fathers about God the Father. From reading the Holy Fathers it becomes clear that knowledge of the Father is given to us through His Son. Indeed without the Incarnation and providential work of Christ in our midst we would never have known of God as Father. God the Father is thus not supposed to be unknown to us. Nor is God the Father the apophatic aspect of the Holy Trinity- a kind of new age Sabellianism. So we are called to have knowledge of God the Father even though this knowledge obviously is limited.(the idea that the creature can know completely the Uncreated is of course proud blasphemy). With this clearly in mind however it is also crucial to understand that the Church has very much given us theology & doctrine concerning God the Father. So it is not correct to think that the Son & Holy Spirit have acted in our midst while the Father has & does not.

This is not the place to attempt to present everything the Church & Holy Fathers teach & show us about God the Father. Christ's references to His Father are many in the New Testament including that through Him (ie Christ) He will make the Father known to us (see my post #258 above).

About what the Holy Fathers wrote, here is a good example from St.Gregory the Theologian, "Who then is that Father Who had no beginning? One Whose very Existence had no beginning; for one whose existence had a beginning must also have begun to be a Father. He did not then become a Father after He began to be, for His being had no beginning." In many of the Holy Fathers we will find such a theological exposition about the Father which is connected to the Trinitarian theology of the Church. It is not correct to think that all of this is beyond us- after all on a basic level it is taught in catechism and in seminaries to young people.

Interestingly St Gregory continues with this description of the Father: "And He is Father in the absolute sense, for He is not also Son; just as the Son is Son in the absolute sense, because He is not also Father. These names do not belong to us in the absolute sense, because we are both, and not one more than the other; and we are of both, and not of one only; and so we are divided, and by degrees become men, and perhaps not even men, and such as we did not desire, leaving and being left, so that only the relations remain, without the underlying facts."

There is a similar passage in St. John of Damascus: "Moreover I shall add that He is the Father of them that have been made by Him. For our God, who has brought us from nothing into being, is more properly our Father than they who have begotten us, but who have received from Him both their being and their power to beget."

Why then is God the Father so unknown to us? Of course there is the already unknowable aspect of God. There is also the fact of our own unworthiness & weakness which must also be taken into account. But apart from this I would submit that we have almost forgotten about God the Father. And why have we forgotten Him? If we know we are His children how could we forget He is our Father?

I ask the question not to hear myself speak but because others may have considered these things (from the previous posts it seems clear already that some have) and have very worthy things to consider. I would offer that we have forgotten our Father due to the worldliness and materialism of our age. St John of Damascus describes with beautiful theological language the Father. He is, "Cause & Principle of all things, the Essence of things that are, the Life of the living, the Reason of the rational, the Understanding of them that have understanding, the Revival and the raising up of them that fall away from Him, the Remaking and reforming of them that are by nature corruptible, the holy Support of them that are tossed on an unholy sea, the sure Support of them that stand, and the Way and the outstretched guiding Hand to them that are drawn to Him." Who could read this and not be overcome with humility and awe at God's loving providence for us? We however have it so ingrained in us to think that 'material nature is the cause, principle and essence of all things.' And that 'our mind is the reason of the rational.'

A second reason we have forgotten God the Father is because we have lost the understanding of God's loving providence for us. We think we are in control and so we have lost to some important degree the understanding of fatherhood in general. It is no wonder that God as Father is forgotten. Look at the depth of God's providence for us. Since He is, "the Essence of things that are, the Life of the living, ..." then we are God the Father's in the deepest way possible. To know & accept this is very difficult for us. But it does seem clear that this kind of knowledge is what God the Father Himself draws us to in our Orthodox life to the degree that we are able to.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Dianne S.]

Please forgive me; this is only my second post here, and I am very new to the Holy Orthodox Faith, having been chrismated on the Dormition Feast this year.

Perhaps, as the Holy Scriptures say, if we have seen the Son we have seen the Father? So, perhaps the way to know the Father is to pursue knowing Christ?

If someone already suggested this, and I overlooked it, please forgive me.

-Dianne

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dianne,

Perhaps this passage from Ephesians3:8-21 relates to your point. I was going to post this today with some comments but didn't get around to it (hopefully tomorrow). One helpful note- when St. Paul uses the word 'God' in the following passage he seems to mean God the Father.

Ephesians 3

8Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory. 14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[1] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Footnotes
3:15 Or whom all fatherhood

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

The "relationship" that we ought to have with the Father is one of obedience. If one is speaking of a psychological relationship, I think that approach puts the cart before the horse. Our psychological state ought to be one of contentment and joy regardless of our circumstances. But we should not try to "analyse" our "relationship" with the Father, or have some analytic model of what our relationship with the Father ought to be, and then try to adapt our psychology to that. Unfortunately, one of the modern heresies is to psychologize theology and matters spiritual.

If I am obedient to the FAther, and by that I do not mean obedient in an obssessive sense as mondern man is obssessive, e.g., does God want me to grab this parking space or does He want me to grab THAT parking spacke, but obedient in a naive way. DO WHAT HE COMMANDS! Don't do this stuff. And do this other stuff. It's pretty clearly laid out. Unfortunately, the Church is often not very helpful in regards to HOW we are to do what God commands, which requires clear instruction and practical method and a process of being unburdened by the feeling that we are completely alone in the effort, or beset by normal feelings that somehow my sins are unique.

Obedience to God's commandments create an ordered psyche and the result is that our relations toward the other things that God has made will be properly ordered and structured as representative of the ideal relations within the Trinity. But even then, we tend to over-psychologize. BUt the tripartite soul and the somatic body and their proper functioning in harmony constitute a microcosmos of the proper and true operations of the Trinity and of all things made which exist within the Trinity. Since everything exists in God, then it is my relations with the things that God has made which reveals my inner relation with the Trinity. But when we focus on what my relations with the Trinity ought to be, then, ironically, what happens is that my relations with the things God has made tend to be given short shrift -- just the opposite of what God commands. So, I think the question should be turned on its head. It should be: what should my relations be with the things God has made? Do I properly respect and have reverence for the things that He has made? The answer to that question will reveal what my relationship is with the Father.

[garry horne]

I think my relationship with God the Father will be shown in how I can answer the question "and what did you do for the least of those amongst you?"

[Moses Anthony]

Owen, Fr. Raphael, others;

With all due respect to your opinion Owen, I really do believe that how we're related to God involves more than "naive" obedience. As it is clearly "laid out" God spoke with Moses face to face as a man speaks with his friend. This and other references I've previously made speak of more than obedience. The story of the "fall of man" implies that Adam and God would walk in the Garden, in the cool of the evening. Also through the prophet Micah God sends forth this word, "...He has shown thee O man what is good, and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God." Again, as with Adam prior to the fall, Enoch, Moses and the words of St. Paul in the Phillipian epistle (chap. 3), an intimacy beyond obedience is before us.

As to why Christiandom at large, has displayed little interest in developing it's teaching concerning our relationship to and with God, it may have something to do with the centuries old emphasis upon teaching "Jesus only, and Him crucified"; which as I think back upon my early Christian life, seems to be a wholly Protestant emphasis. As the words of the Apostle says, let us forget those things which are behind us, pressing on for those things which are before, for the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, that we may lay of that for which Christ Jesus has laid hold of us.

a sinful and unworthy servant

[Owen Jones]

There is no real relationship to the Father. But our posture toward the Father is one of reverence, awe, fear and trembling in the presence of His power. Our response is obedience. Traditionally, I would say that our relationship with Christ is one of friendship. And to the Holy Spirit of intense movement of the soul expressed as desire. None of these are neat, limited categories. All distinctions fade in the presence of the Trinity. Our only real relationship with the Trinity is with the things God has made. By "naive" I am saying that it is not analytical. And certainly it is Biblical to say that we have to become like children.

[Owen Jones]

It is impossible to have a relationship with the Father. How can I have a relationship with an impassable, non-thing?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Owen,

I do not think that it is correct when you say that "It is impossible to have a relationship with the Father."

In Scripture there are references to knowing God the Father, eg "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him (Mt.11:27)." Most powerfully we also read in Galatians 4:6 "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, 'Abba, Father.'"

Also I have just come across Hymn 21 of St. Symeon the New Theologian which is the first Patristic text I found so far which deals extensively with the subject at hand. I have not had time yet to go through it all and take it in. But already I find the following: "awakened by the light of this Spirit they [St Symeon has preceeded this with a long description of those who in purity & humility have prepared themselves in the Spirit]see the Son, they behold the Father and adore the Trinity of Persons, the One God, who by nature is one in a manner that cannot be expressed."

So if the Son chooses to reveal the Father to us, if through the Spirit we are able to cry, 'Abba Father' to Him, and if there is even the possibility that we can "behold the Father", after all of this can we say that the Father does not manifest Himself to us in any way? This to me would be like asking someone to call you father and then leaving them orphans.

You ask how can we have a relationship with an impassible, non-thing? Because God is Personal, because God is love.

Perhaps though you have a special meaning for the word relationship: I am seeking for how we are to know God as our Father with whatever word is proper for this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

In a completely different thread about Origen, Matthew said (correct me if I'm wrong) Origen's problem was "...he thought to much." Owen I was about to say/think/post, 'good thought', until I read your second post. Me-thinks thou dost think to much.

Yes we relate to God through the things which He has made, but then (other than the corporeal body of our Lord Jesus Christ), we relate to God just as did the Samaritan woman,. This then also begs the point of your second post Owen, God being an impassable non-thing. By the way of His own self-revelation, God has and continues to be known until we no longer look as in a mirror.

However; let me at this point toss out another bone to gnaw upon. An aspect of the relationship we have with God is that of subjects; for surely phrases such as Lord of Lords, King of Kings, and kingdom of heaven implies a ruler and therefore subjects. It may very well be another reason why much of how we're to be related to God, has been lost over the centuries. Nevertheless, even here there rings out the words of Jesus, "... no longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends...." Suffice it to say that our relationship with Almighty God is an organic one,again until such a time as we shall know as we are known.

a doulos

[Owen Jones]

I don't know what you all mean by "relationahip." You are all the time changing terms. One post you refer to knowing God. Then it's a relationship. Then they are used interchangeably. I can know that a rock is a rock. Do I have a relationship with it? I thought this thread was about what kind of relationship can we have with the Father. I don't believe that one can split the Trinity into three different things, but let's take the question at face value, and my response is that you cannot have a "direct" relationship with the Father. Does that clarify?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Owen,
I thought your words in post #881 were most helpful & also quite moving. Except again when you say that there is no real relationship with the Father. Due to my own limitations I don't understand what you mean by this(except for the "direct" part; we never know God fully). Considering that God the Father loves us; and we are called to love Him. How would you best describe this?
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

As I was drifting off to sleep last night I was thinking about this thread, and your original question of how we're to be related to the Father.

From the responsive posts it would appear that there's no one Orthodox response to your query. However; there seems to be just as many justifiable answers, as there are "energies" emanating from the essence of God. Everyone must relate to God through His Son Jesus, then there's obedience, child-like naivete, servants/diplomats, servant laborers, friends, sons and daughters. As the Troparia of The Transfiguration says of even the inner circle of Apostles; "...Thou didst reveal Thy glory to Thy disciples, in proportion as they could bear it..."

After all the "religious speak", this is the "best guess" I'm capable of offering; which as always, may or may not be of any help.

a sinful and unworthy servant

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear James,

Today is the great feast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-Giving Cross. Last night during service while venerating the cross in the Russian Orthodox Church many prostrations are done while we sing Lord have mercy. I was right next to a woman who while prostrate sung Lord have mercy with do much conviction, I thought to myself this woman is pouring her heart out, I mean she really meant it.

In accordance with Orthodox thought we are worshipping beings, for we have been created a little lower then the angels, as such I think that we can look at the relationship of the Angels to God the Father, keeping in God's love for mankind.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Hebrews 2:7
You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, and set him over the works of Your hands.

Below is some text from liturgica rearding worship.

http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEOLitIcon.jsp?hostname=null

"The Eastern Orthodox understanding of worship begins with the scriptural understanding that there are other heavenly or spiritual beings: angels and archangels, cherubim and seraphim. The Scriptures teach that in worship believers are surrounded by and worship within this communion of heavenly hosts. As the Prayer of Entrance says, "O Sovereign Lord, our God, Who appointed in heaven the orders and armies of angels and archangels for the service of Your glory, grant that the holy angels may enter with us to serve and glorify Your goodness with us." Or, as the prayer during the Thanksgiving acknowledges of God, "for this liturgy which You are pleased to accept from our hands, though there stand before You thousands of archangels, and myriads of angels, cherubim and seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, soaring high on their wings; singing, proclaiming, shouting the Hymn of Victory."

The Communion of the Saints

This belief in the communion of the Saints goes back to the early church. St. Athanasius in his second pastoral letter regarding the Easter Feast speaks of it in 330 A.D., undoubtedly reflecting a much earlier tradition within the Church. He says, "So then, let us celebrate this heavenly joy, together with the Saints of old who kept the same Feast. Yes, they keep the feast with us, and they are examples to us of life in Christ." [2] Notice the change in tenses: the Saints of old kept the feast, and now they "keep it with us." The Saints are able to keep the feast because upon their death they entered into the communion of the Lord, which transcends death and is eternal.

We can further read the below from Revelation 4;

The Throne Room of Heaven

John's Vision of God's Throne
(1) 1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3And He who sat there was[1] like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[2] of gold on their heads. 5And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.[3] Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the[4] seven Spirits of God.
6Before the throne there was[5] a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. 8The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:


"Holy, holy, holy,[6]
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!"


9Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:


11"You are worthy, O Lord,[7]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[8] and were created."

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear James & Matthew,

Thank you for your posts. Believe me that this is of great help.

Last night I found St John Chrysostom's Homilies on the Gospel of St. John. This is probably safer to go into than St. Symeon the New Theologian. (I referred to his Hymn 21 above. He also has several theological writings on this) So this is from Homily 73 (Jn.13:36-14:7). There is an interesting reference at the end of this about us being able to see God like the angels which is like what you wrote Matthew & also in a way like the Apostles you refer to James who perceive the Uncreated Glory of God.

"'No one comes to the Father but through me.'...'I am the way.' This is the proof that 'No one comes, but through me,' while the words, 'and the truth, and the life,' are the proof that these words will be fulfilled without exception...Besides, if I am the Way, you will not be in want of a guide...Still they took great comfort from the idea of 'the Way'. He meant: 'Well, then, if I am in control of bringing men to the Father, you will come there, without a doubt. Indeed, it is not possible to come by any other way.'

But how is it that, after saying: "Where I go you know, and the way you know," He went on to say: "If you had known me, you would also have known my Father. And henceforth you will know him and you will have seen him"?

By no means was He contradicting Himself, for they did know Him to be sure, but not as they ought. They did indeed know God, but not yet the Father, for the Spirit, who came upon them afterwards, provided them with the knowledge of all this. Further, what He meant was some such thing as this: 'If you knew My essence & dignity, you would also know that of the Father. And henceforth you will know Him, and you have seen Him' (the former in future, the latter at present), that is, 'through Me'. Moreover, by 'sight' He meant knowledge by means of the understanding. For we can both see & fail to know persons whom we actually see, but we cannot both know & fail to know [at the same time] persons whom we know. That is why He declared:'And you have seen him,' just as Scripture says: 'as he has been seen by angels also.' Even though His very essence was not, of course, seen, it said that He 'has been seen,' clearly meaning 'seen' in such a way as it was possible for the angels to see."

This is about the most helpful passage that I have come across so far that gets to the heart of what it is I am looking for.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I come back again to the following from Ephesians. There is something so powerful in it which sums up everything we have been trying to say.

Ephesians 3

8Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

-As I said previously, reading the word "God" as meaning God the Father brings out the Trinitarian vision of St Paul. When one keeps this in mind, almost translating as one reads, there is revealed the depth of St Paul's understanding of God's providence and of how it works in a cosmic context. This is what he is revealing: how God the Father's providence has and does work through the Incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ. Christ often referred to how we could only come to the Father only through Himself.

10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-Indeed the pre-eternal providence of God the Father is made manifest & worked out through Christ "to rulers & authorities in the heavenly realms" ie God the Father's providence is revealed in its full cosmic context within the Church.

12In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
-Does the "him" refer to Christ? If so things go full circle. The Father's cosmic providence is revealed through Christ & through faith in Christ we may approach the Father "with freedom & confidence." This sums up the heart of how we are to approach the Father- through Christ. But this seems so bold, or rather the love offered to us by God is so bold- to be able to approach Him- that it is no wonder few words are to be found even among the great Patristic & monastic fathers to describe what exactly comes next.

13I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

-St Pauls' understanding of his own sufferings is not selfish and 'small' but rather held in place by his understanding of Christ's love and what this means in the deepest way as related to the Father's providence. In turn the faithful are given peace about St. Paul's sufferings because they too can see this (and their own sufferings by inference) within Christ.

14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[1] in heaven and on earth derives its name.

-I find these two verses to be keys to our understanding of God the Father. St. Paul prays to the Father. Why not Christ? I think the reason is tied in with the next verse:"15from whom his whole family[1] in heaven and on earth derives its name." What is the name referred to? Does St.Paul mean this in the general sense that humanity finds its origin (creation) from God the Father? Or does it mean that we are to be called Children of God in virtue of the fact that He is revealed as our Father? This last point which can easily be included in the first is very poignant. It is only through Christ that we are revealed as Children of God (since through Him we are brought to the Father). In some crucial sense to be children of God describes God's pre-eternal plan and our very nature as humans. In this sense the Church is the perfection of the plan of God wherein we become His children. And then in the most fundamental sense we only fulfill our calling by becoming members of the Church.

16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
-This is Trinitarian in the most immediate way. St. Paul is praying to the Father for the People of God that through the Holy Spirit they may have Christ "dwelling in their hearts through faith." This seems to be the most perfect prayer possible.

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

-The fulfillment of this prayer is that through love we may understand the love of Christ. And in turn through this love "you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God"; ie through the love of Christ we can like the Prodigal Son meet his Father, but within our own hearts. After this we could do no better than to echo St. Paul's words of praise which follow.

20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Footnotes
3:15 Or whom all fatherhood

[Marie-Duquette]

As I have read and re-read the posts on "God - the Father" trying to understand a "relationship" with this Father of the Blessed Trinity, I couldn't help gazing at the Icon of Rublev -- the Trinity, for me a most meaningful Icon.

It seems that in all the readings that I have made in the past week or so in Scripture, and the Fathers, searching for this "relationship with the Father" as distinct from that with the Son and the Holy Spirit, I discover that the whole of my personal life is attempting to be "in relationship" with the Holy Trinity -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They cannot be separated, though they do have differing functions within the God-Head: Creator and Source of all being, Son, Incarnate Redeemer, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth; etc. There are too many titles to list them all.

If the NAME is the Person, then the Father as Creator and Source of all being united with Son and Holy Spirit, is as "relational" as the Son is and the Holy Spirit.

In the beginning, God said: "Let us create!..." It is together that they create; together that they walk with Adam in the cool of the day; together that they reveal the Divinity in the Burning Bush; together that the whole of God's intervention in Salvation History is accomplished, though at differing times, certain "functions or aspects of the Divinity" are expressed and revealed.

Perhaps I am not very academically theological in these words; but I believe in the Father, creator or heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible...and, in His Only Son Our Lord . . .; and in the Holy Spirit. . . as expressed in the Nicene Creed.

I believe that God is relational in His Essence, as well as in His revealed Being, always making Himself Present and known, as well as Absent and unknowing, though in Mystery, to Adam, Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, and in the latter day through His Son Jesus, to us also, who like the Theotokos, are ready, open, available, pure of heart, obedient to the Divine Will; that is, responsive to the Presence and advances of God in daily life through prayer, good works, in Faith Hope and Love.

Jesus,in the Gospel, invites us to be "perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect" ; and, also invites us "to learn from Me that I am meek and humble of heart."

Jesus' life on earth was "relational" with the Father, His Father ... "the Father and I are one! ...I have made know to you everything I have learnt from my Father . . . and the Father will give you anything you ask him in my name ... Father, the time has come: glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you; . . . Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. . . I have made your name know to them and will continue to make it know, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and so that I may be in them." It is accomplished,... Father into your hands I commend my Spirit."

As I write these simple Words, from my heart, I am overwhelmed with the Love that God has for us,His creation, His his created, adopted humans, and children . . . and how much He attempts to reach us, each of us at the heart of our existence, so that we, each of us, may learn little by little to respond to this Divine Love . . . as Mary the Theotokos did, " Here I am, your handmaiden, come to do your will."

Jesus said: when you pray, say:
"Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be they Name, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

`````````And, after the resurrection,to his disciples, Jesus said, "As the Father sent me, so I am sending you. Receive the Holy Spirit. . .

Humbly, all I can say is that God is relational in His Being Love; and, I am called by Him to respond in the very Love that is at the Heart of His Being. In the silent gaze upon the unknowable God, I am in a sense swept into the relational Presence of God-Trinity, envelopped by the Mystery of being know, knowing into unknowing

Pray for me a sinner, who seems to be so near and yet so far from the "Divine relationship" that I am called to each day, and for which my soul yearns.
marie duquette

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Marie,

You wrote, "As I write these simple Words, from my heart, I am overwhelmed with the Love that God has for us,His creation, His his created, adopted humans, and children . . . and how much He attempts to reach us, each of us at the heart of our existence, so that we, each of us, may learn little by little to respond to this Divine Love . . . as Mary the Theotokos did, " Here I am, your handmaiden, come to do your will."

God bless you for such words & the rest of your post also.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Curtis Dunn]

Owen Jones asked: "I can know that a rock is a rock. Do I have a relationship with it?"

If you stumble and are crushed by it, then yes!
When it is your head stone, then yes!

rdr. john dunn