Thoughts and words

[Daniel Jeandet]

My friend and I were thinking and talking the other day about how alot of the time, we verbalise our thoughts. We felt that the way we spoke out our thoughts in our minds might not be normal (or according to Gods intended design), because we both agreed that the words seemed to come after the thoughts, that they are extraneous, that the words kind of force the thoughts down to a cruder level than they start at. I feel like I am dragging my mind down deeper into time and space when I say everything to myself a nano-second after I have actually known the thought. I was thinking that maybe we interupt and corrupt our thought process by verbalising everything.

I told my friend that I would ask some people I know on the Net who understand alot of things about the real nature of people and who have read a lot of Fathers, so if anyone can throw some patristic light on this subject, I would be really grateful, and my friend and I can stop speculating.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Daniel,

My sense of this is that according to Orthodox anthropology (the nature of man according to the Holy Frs) the spoken word is not inherently on a lower or cruder level than thought. Rather according to both what Christ said & the Holy Frs followed the sinful word originates from the sinful thought, "for out of the heart come evil thoughts..."(Mt 15:19). This is one of our basic efforts as Christians, to purify through our whole ascetic-sacramental life in Christ, the heart so that word & action may also be purified; for instance this is a chief reason for the Jesus Prayer.

This brings up a fascinating question I had never thought about before: the reason why God also gave us the power to speak the word. This must connect first being in the image & likeness of God (one of the symbols or analogies the Fathers used to describe the Holy Trinity is :Father-mind,Son-word.)To power to speak the word resembles the creative power of God (eg Adam being able to name the animals in Paradise). It also holds us in community as communicating human beings. In a word (forgive the pun) this ability to speak is a divine gift if it is purified through prayer.

In Christ- Fr R

[Melissa]

Daniel J. -
What an interesting topic - This isn't a patristic answer but may perhaps be helpful in some way as you think about the issue of speech.

As people we seem to have a need to connect, and that connection is facilitated by speech, although speech may actually be the crudest form of communication, given how much happens otherwise (body language, expression, emotional climate, etc.). There is an apparent continuum of normal emotional development that can range from participating in impulsive speech (speaking whatever is in my head without thought to it's meaning, construction, or impact), to refining our thoughts to their most elegant (usually, simple and cogent) before deciding to speak, to thinking but not speaking at all or only in a deliberately very limited fashion (as in some monastic orders, and some saints). So whether or not your pattern is "normal" has a pretty generous context. Whether you're speaking in a Godly way may have as much or more to do with content as amount, and is always a good thing to consider, I think (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm responding to your post, but am also applying this to myself in my heart).

We have examples of saints who wrote much and spoke little; spoke realtively much and wrote relatively little; and didn't speak much at all - so I think ultimately it's a decision each of us make as we grow in our faith, guided by those we trust. How much do I want to speak, about what, when, and how does it contribute to my life in Christ? And who ought I to check this out with? I always find it helpful to talk with my priest, because so often I'm supporting myself in my own ideas and not even realizing it...
In Christ,
Melissa

[Trudy Ellmore]

To add a twist to this, what about the language of music or even sign-language? These examples are not "spoken" with the mouth (unless you're singing of course), yet they communicate. We communicate in a variety of ways, through facial expressions, through body language, through music, etc.

God tells us to be holy as He is holy. Thus as we live an Orthodox life, repent, confess, pray and receive the Eucharist, God purifies us....from the inside out. So as He changes our hearts, what comes from that place and becomes a thought in our minds and becomes the word spoken from our mouths, finds its source in Him and His love.

Not sure I'm communicating this really well. Too much stuff running 'round the inside of my head as I study for finals! Anyway, this is just my .02 cents for what's it worth. YMMV.

There's a good essay in this topic somewhere, I can feel it! :o)

~Trudy~

[Daniel Jeandet]

Thankyou for the response, however, I didnt explain my question properly (the usual problem of thinking more about what Im saying than the people who might be listening).

I didnt mean verbalise as in speaking thoughts so that other people can hear them, I meant thinking in words. Forming words and sentences, even dialoge, purely within. Having thoughts in the form of imagined sounds, as if we are speaking inaudibly to ourselves as we think about something. There seems to be a quicker, deeper form of thinking that occurs almost instantly, without words or images, but very hard to observe.

I hope thats more clear than my first post, and that the questions in that first post make more sense now.

[Melissa]

Thanks, Daniel, for clarifying your question. I think you're right that there is a deeper form of "thinking" that occurs without words, often even without pictures, sort of by a "felt sense", hard to detect until one realizes a new something is in place inside. This sounds like something I've studied through somatic psychology, and is both wonderful and potentially dangerous [like everything! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif ] if unexamined once it comes into awareness.

The "conversation" part of your thinking reminds me of the distraction I notice when I have too much 'static' in my head (thinking in conversations, busying myself with 'figuring things out', worrying, etc.) - it rarely helps me and often contributes to an unnecessary and perhaps unfaithful anxiety (could this be similar to the effect of your dragging my mind down deeper into time and space when I say everything to myself a nano-second after I have actually known the thought.? Much of my prayer life deals with this tendency as I notice it in myself!

I'm still not quite sure I'm really understanding what you're trying to look at, Daniel, (my problem, not yours), so let me know if I'm way off what you're trying to get at, OK?!
I love the connections Father Raphael and Trudy have made, because it puts all this into a bigger and better context for me.

In Christ,
Melissa

[Melissa]

Father Raphael, bless,
This thread has reminded me of a brief
'conversation' you and I had on another thread awhile ago - about politicians and decisionmaking and use of their religious views.
It now seems right to post a further thought here, although I"m not sure it fits!

This morning I read a lecture given by HB Patriarch Ignatius IV in 1989 to a conference of Catholic Bishops and Swiss Protestant Churches called "A Theology of Creation". What I read is the first of 3 lectures, and I don't have the other 2, so I know I don't have full context.

What I'm thinking about is his sentence, "In the Bible men's hearts and minds are the same thing." As I understand it, this is what I mean when I say I like the fact that some politicians "use their religious understanding" (that's not a quote from my earlier post, just identifying the same thought) in their decisionmaking (I'm not making a comment on the efficacy of any politician, or even considering anyone's spiritual background here, although those are the things I'd be doing 'in real life'). I hope to be growing more and more in this direction myself, through prayer, Liturgy, spiritual direction, education, etc., and it seems like this is what Orthodox psychotherapy is all about - bringing our hearts and minds together in Christ, individually and collectively.

My question is, is my thinking on the right track? I don't mean this to be about spiritual direction, I'll take care of that part (I value everything you say, I'm just trying to respect the appropriate Monachos boundaries!), but rather about a more general question regarding this line of thinking, especially as it connects to our current discussion of thoughts and words, and how we use them internally and externally.
I will appreciate any response you might have -
In Christ,
Melissa

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Daniel,

I think your touching upon the subject the heart and somewhat differentiating between heart and mind. The mind is considered lower and the heart is expressed by the fathers as the seat of the soul. Both of these places and in-between them can be a place of brutal warfare or dismissed and even ignored. When we are baptized into Christ we put on Christ. We are too weak to fight by ourselves, so it is through the mysteries in the Orthodox Church that we put on the armor to fight. The mind can be subject to all kinds of notions and external internal influences. Hence many monastics lived reclusive lives to reduce the external impressions conveyed from living in society. A simple example is nowadays we are bombarded with detrimental words and images that are displayed for our absorption to promote sin and activate our passions. I sometimes drive on the highway and see so many billboards that advertise and promote the acceptance of one passion after another. Most worldly music conveys into the mind all manners of evil, the devil through repetition try's to inculcate matters into the heart. It's really demonic spiritual propaganda often conveyed through a distortion of human emotions because he is seductive and cunning and intelligent but not really intelligent because he's fighting the almighty and subject to God's will as all things are. I mention this because we learn from the fathers that our thoughts are not our own. I recall that Christ said to Saint Peter get behind me Satan, as a result of the opposing words that had been expressed to Christ by Saint Peter. If we have thoughts that we don't assent to or agree with then they might not necessarily be of the heart if we don't mean them. I think it was Saint Theophanes the recluse who wrote that the mind is a rag market if my memory serves me correctly. We are made in the image and likeness of God and we are also worshiping beings. Does a man worship God with his mind? There is a Greek word I forget it now. Within Orthodoxy right faith and worship can be experienced not just through the mind but via the senses but most importantly through the heart. Hearing a Homily or beautiful traditional music, smelling incense, seeing a child venerate an icon, making the sign of the cross, anointing with holy oil, confessing our sins receiving the body and blood of Christ. Unintentionally, last week a heard a woman cry from the depths of her soul when the Priest was hearing her confession, that was the sound of her heart. Her tears came from her heart. Surely when you shared the beautiful story about your son and expressed a deeper form of thinking that occurs almost instantly you moved beyond your mind into your heart or you would have never recognized the simplicity of you son's very pure prayer of the heart. I know you didn't find that so hard to observe, and rightly offered thanks to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through words. Several weeks ago around Pashca a beloved Priest friend of many years who knows me well was sitting in front of the computer with me. He is very learned, he looked at me and quoted Ezekiel during a conversation.

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "O Sovereign LORD , you alone know."

He didn't have to say anything more than "Oh my" for what he was saying was seen clearly in his eyes not by my eyes though. I don't think I was thinking anything at that point in space and time.

In Christ,

Matthew P.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I agree that this is a very interesting topic.

There seem to be 3 or 4 levels of consciousness in us.

At one level we don't need to verbalize our thoughts at all. They exist without this. Then there is a level nearer to our surface level where we put our thoughts into words in our minds. And finally, we express our thoughts verbally - usually not very successfully. (There also appears to be an even deeper level where even our thoughts don't reach - this is where our conscience lives I think - somewhere where there is a feeling of right and wrong that we don't need to think about at all).

And Daniel, what about our dreams? I sometimes find myself analysing them at the very moment I am having them. I use both words and also that deeper level that doesn't need words at all. Verbalizing our thoughts in our minds seems to become more necessary the older we get - at least this is so in my case.

I once read that our subconscious mind is like a basket - whatever we put into this basket during the day - experiences, thoughts, etc. - is processed by our brains during the night. Some of it needs to be analysed carefully, the result of which is some of the dreams we have, and other "stuff" is just filed away and used as a basis for our feelings and reactions at some later date. Makes you really careful of what you "allow" into your mind, doesn't it? At least it should!!!

Most of the Fathers of the church advised us to say as little as possible because words are not always an accurate method of communication and can cause damage.

Here in Greece there is a saying : "the tongue has no bones but it can break bones".

I've jumped around a bit with the above comments but I wanted to respond to most of the thoughts in the messages already posted. Hope I've made some sense.

Effie

Trudy is so right when she says : "God tells us to be holy as He is holy. Thus as we live an Orthodox life, repent, confess, pray and receive the Eucharist, God purifies us....from the inside out. So as He changes our hearts, what comes from that place and becomes a thought in our minds and becomes the word spoken from our mouths, finds its source in Him and His love. "

Beautiful words and so true.............

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Melissa,
God bless

I believe we all have to pray about these issues. We are in the world but not of it. Further we no longer live in societies formed by Orthodoxy. We can even question how much Christian influence there is on our culture(s). Add to this that Orthodox societies(and in general older societies also)practiced what we call government while in modern society we see the overwhelming influence of what we call 'politics'. (Not that the two do not have elements of the other). I believe this all adds up to something that is clearly ambiguous for us as Orthodox Christians. To put it briefly: we ARE called to have a concern for the society we live in, to pray for it. But the society we find ourselves in is more worldly.

If I understand the direction of your question Melissa about 'heart & mind'. To follow heart is not necessarily better than mind; as Christ says, "for out of the heart proceed...". Both heart & mind must be in Christ. I think it is Richard Pipes (the great scholar of modern Russia and on themes such as Communism) that has said that Nazism is Romanticism taken to its extreme while Communism is Rationalism taken to its extreme. Thus in itself the heart is no safer a basis of government than the mind.

One last example of what I mean by the ambiguity of society. You may have heard of Pierre Elliot Trudeau who was Prime Minister of Canada at different times during the 1960s-80s. He was definitely representative of liberal culture of the post-war period (a bit like Kennedy). In one way he ushered in values such as multi-cultural tolerance, dialogue rather than conflict; but he was also well-known for introducing the philosophy that "government should not interfere in the bedrooms of the nation" (this was his phrase); thiry years later and our government philosophy on moral matters is very similiar to that of north-western Europe even though the people are more conservative. Add to this that after Trudeau's death it turned out he was a real practising Roman Catholic- only looking back at his time as Prime Minister can one say that the effect of this was perhaps a very strong moral sense of protecting the country from what he took as destructive influences- ie violent and/or peaceful seperatism in Quebec. In one sense I think he really was acting as a father trying to protect his country; in another he was acting as the high-liberal ruler protecting that most sacred idea- the nation-state. Towards the end of his time as Prime Minister people often felt him to be cold, intellectual & arrogant whereas in private he was intellectual, sympathetic & acknowledged his weaknesses.

I think many politicians are like this in some measure; there are different threads of thought & feeling moving them. Nothing seems too clear-cut. It is up to us as Orthodox Christians to try to act with discernment & concern for the societies in which we live.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Melissa]

Dear Father Raphael,
bless,
Thank you for your response to my recent post. I hadn't really thought about your point re: government and politics. That they're not the same, and to recognize the difference, and the impact of the difference, is important. I'm still learning how to live from what I believe, and not be so influenced by the culture, so your comments were helpful!
Melissa

[Rose]

Dear Daniel J,
This is an interesting topic and I understand you completely. Personally, I've been doing this for a number of years and have found it extremely beneficial. The need for words in my heart and mind are most of the time a hinderence. I'm sure you also find it slows down your thought processes and pray life. Is it right or wrong, I don't know. I tend to think it is alright.

The only time I diliberately speak in words to myself is when I *order* my thoughts to overcome temptations. Then I shout to myself what a stupid idea such and such is, how I don't want to think those thoughts, etc.

When I converse with God, I do both. I speak with my heart with and without words, mostly without words. Most of the time I cannot find the words to adequately express what I'm trying to say to Him.... and I do believe He, in turn, speaks to me in the same manner.

I'd be interested in knowing if you have found any more answers to your question. I hope I've helped in some small way.

Rose

[matt]

I have spoken with several monastics about this is the past and they all said that while it is true that we can at the highest level of prayer not use words or images, it is not suggested to be set up as a goal, but rather to use the words and images of the Church as our guide. They all seem to indicate that a wordless and imageless appraoch to God for someone who is not very advanced ussually is not communing with God, but with their own lack of words or images.Obviously I am not advocating or directing anyone here, but only repeating what I have been taught and found useful.

That almost Orthodox C. S. Lewis also writes somewhere that when he first converted he tried to pray without words and images, but that it didn't seem like a path to anywhere and there was no place to hang the hat, so to speak.

I wonder if anyone could comment on the spiritual exercises of St Ignatius Loyola and if that particular use of using images in devotion, like trying to picture yourself at the garden with Jesus in agony, is at all in line with eastern approaches. I would think not, but I have wondered about this.

[Melissa]

Dear Matt,
I have been taught the same as you, I think, with an admonition that I not seek images,and not attach myself to them if they come, but rather focus on the words themselves. This is one reason, I was told, why Orthodox (unless very advanced) use the 'tried and true' prayers of the church, rather than feeling free to make up our own prayers. Among other things, I suppose it's another discipline.
I hope this adds to the discussion.
In christ,
Melissa

[Rose]

Thank you for the additional info, Melissa and Matt. I agree wholeheartly with regards to "images", however, (and this is hard to explain) what I (and I assume Daniel) was speaking about was not images, but thoughts (for a lack of identification) without words.

Matt, your related monastic teaching is quite helpful. I've found that when beginning to meditate in prayer, I naturally slip into a wordless meditation (without images). This of course doesn't mean that I don't use the Church's 'tried and true' prayers, but only that in addition to them, or in the process of them, the words at times cease.

This subject is so hard to put into words (no humor intended).

[Melissa]

To all - I apologize for a double posting - not quite sure how that happened! The first one I thought got cancelled. Anyway, Rose, I take your point about "wordless thoughts" - seeming to or actually emanating from the heart. I know there is a difference between my own lack of will to struggle for words or read prayers from Orthodox prayer books, and the experience you are discussing. I'm enough of a novice spiritually, and enough of a sinner even in prayer, to assume I haven't had the actual experience you're talking about.

I will also be interested in further thoughts about this topic.

Please all accept my sincere intent in prayer-I'm going to the cathedral in SF in a few minutes, so will pray about this, and for the forum, and the other requests, there also.

In Christ,
Melissa