Orthodoxy and suffering

[sinjin smithe]

Orthodoxy offers a radically different view of suffering. It embraces it. I have read some things that state since Christ suffered, we ourselves should expect to suffer. I find it hard to accept this. First, Christ is God and can withstand suffering better than us humans. Plus, in the end he knew where he was going, whereas when we suffer we do not know the end of it or where it will lead. Pain is not necessarily bad, but too much pain can be bad. Also, those who speak of suffering, are never in the process of suffering or enduring great pain.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Sinjin,

I respectfully differ from your view. Christ in his humanity suffered far worse than any of us, not physically perhaps, but in terms of inner torment. He also, by the biblical witness, did not know in any absolute sense what the outcome would be. (Hence, the reason why most pre-Nicea Christology was subordinationism in some respect). I know many people who have a very positive, spiritual view of their own suffering and benefit from it spiritually as they are suffering. They have developed this attitude through deep prayer and acceptance of God's will. I think we cannot dispute that this lies at the core of what makes Christianity unique (not the incarnation per se, or the Virgin birth, or our trinitarianism, but the unique perspective that Christians have regarding suffering. Suffering is our salvation. As Christians, we take on the responsibility to suffer in a spiritually illuninating way. This is our witness to the world, and it is what condemns worldliness and all heresies. Of course, the greatest of suffering is that which is taken on willingly, voluntarily, such as the self-punishment endured by asceticism, or martyrdom from witnessing to the faith with courage in the face of oppresion. But there is much in the way of commonplace suffering, when people accept and embrace their diseases and afflictions as an opportunity to be Christ-like, which will save others.

[sinjin smithe]

Okay...how does acceptance of afflictions give us an oppurtunity to be Christ-like and save others? What I was trying to say is that Christ is stronger than any of us, and that sometimes the suffering is so unbearable if not paralysing for us humans. How does embracing let's say loneliness or sickness or being slandered or losing a job lead one to accept Christ? Does it give one a warm, fuzzy feeling in their heart? Also, there are many people who struggle with inner torment too, it is not only special to Christ. What does God do in the face of our suffering? What if suffering does not make us Christ-like but turns us against Christ? What is the purpose of that? What does it all in the end? A treasure chest in heaven?

[Owen Jones]

The bible promises us otherwise. It says that we can do even greater works than Christ. So to say that Christ is somehow stronger is unbiblical. The fact that some people buckle under suffering does not refute Christ's doctrine of suffering. All it says is that many are called and few are chosen. But there is no good reason for anyone of faith to have a negative attitude toward our own suffering, and we can indeed come closer to God through, especially through, and in some sense only through our sufferings. Nor should we allow the suffering of others to undermine our faith in God. Why God allows suffering, or causes suffering, is the greatest of all mysteries, and like Job, it is not our business to second guess His intentions for us in this regard.

The way to prepare ourselves is to deny ourselves until it is painful, so that when involuntary suffering comes then we can embrace it joyfully. Many of the martyrs reportedly were in a state of spiritual ecstacy when they suffered their martyrdom. Look at the story of St. Chatherine for example. At the very least, we should do our best to bear suffering without a great degree of inner disturbance, even if we do not see any use of it at the time: the meaning will come to us later.

One of the characteristics of secularism is to equate suffering with evil, and the modern state preys on that fear that people have of suffering to enslave them.

Most of our suffering these days is, in any case, that of an "existential" or psychological nature, related to egotistical fear. We suffer when we do not get what we want, or fear losing what we have, or the approval of others. We fear that we will be seen as losers, or less beautiful and healthy than others. This causes us to be depressed and weighed down by our suffering. Also, there is the moral weight of suffering due to our sins. But in both cases we are commanded by Scripture not to despair, and to seek only to please God, who will reward us richly for our faithful attitude. We must all be very firm in defending this doctrine and standing fast in our own faith as we suffer. We must be careful for asking for the opportunity for suffering, because than can be the sin of pride at work. This is what I always mean when I harp about the need for an Orthodox witness.

In Christ, we turn a sows ear into a silk purse. What others deem as evil, especially for a good man to suffer for no apparent reason, is exactly what we are placed on this earth for.

[sinjin smithe]

The bible promises us otherwise. It says that we can do even greater works than Christ. So to say that Christ is somehow stronger is unbiblical.

In other words, it is possible that we can suffer even more than Christ? So then, what Christ did on the cross was not that great of feat in terms of strength? So much for a God who can relate to our suffering. How does God know our suffering and understand and relate to our suffering? How does he know the sting of loneliness or someone who has gone blind or someone who has lost a loved one?

Why God allows suffering, or causes suffering, is the greatest of all mysteries, and like Job, it is not our business to second guess His intentions for us in this regard.

I would like know why, but this question is totally unanswerable. Because we don't know the reasons why suffering happens, naturally leads onee to second guess the intentions of God in this area. Christianity does not give us the answers but rather the crutch to cope as I am learning each day in my life. What is important is not understanding why, no the important thing is to run to God so that he makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside...so that we can commune with Him in prayer. It is all about God and His end of things, never ours.

It is possible in Christianity, to find answers to the fundamental questions like suffering? I don't think it is.

[Loretta]

Can I add my "penny for your thoughts" here?

While growing up and encountering pain for whatever reason, I was always instructed to "offer it up". I never quite understood this until years later. Now I still "offer it up" only to find that 99% of the time the pain either disappears or I'm able to ignore it. (And everytime this happens I'm completely surprised!)

I try and relate my life's pains to Christ. For example, if I fall I remember how He fell under the cross; if I'm lonely I remember how He was abandoned by His apostles; when I lose someone I remember how He cried for Lazarus. He understands my feelings.

Perhaps He allows pain to bring our focus back to Him. It's like a lesson in learning to share all aspects of our lives -good and bad- with Him.

Is it not true that Christ had two natures - truly human and truly God? And the pains He suffered here were truly felt through His human nature in no less of a manner than any human being.

[sinjin smithe]

Loretta, of course you can offer your comments here. What exactly do you mean by offering it up? How does one do that? What do you do when it does not work that 1% of the time?

[Moses Anthony]

My first thought was; blanket statements are bad, i.e; "...those who speak of suffering, are never in the process of suffering or enduring great pain" How do you know this, as just one of the billions upon the earth?

Jesus said, "In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer I have overcome the world." He also told us (via his disciples) that we would be persecuted by those who claimed to be religious, because they neither knew Him nor the Father. The Apostle Peter wrote to the Church in Asia "...In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be , you have been greived by various trials, that the genuiness of your faith, being more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen, you love. For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer for it, you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, becuse Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that you should follow in His steps; who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth; who when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threatened, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;..."

How does enduring suffering lead one to accept Jesus Christ; "Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

There are some reasons we can know (and do), for the presence of suffering: People suffer because of sin in their lives; people suffer because they have an enemy who delights in seeing them suffer, especially if it makes them lose faith in God, people suffer to test their faith (see the above reference in 1st Peter 1); people suffer- good people and bad- because it's a principle/law of our existence. None of the above can be applied as a blanket statement to every situation.

The psalmist wrote "Trust in Him at all times, O people; Pour out your heart before Him; God is a refuge for us." (Ps.62/63:9)In other words, offer to God your cares in prayer. Someone said somewhere, "the problem with living sacrifices, is that they have a tendency to crawl off the altar."

Is it possible to find the answers to fundamental questions, YES! However; we are not told that knowledge is our strength, but "in quietness and confidence is your strength", or as Paul wrote to Timothy, "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I've entrusted to Him until that day."

Forgive me for being so chatty here. I've lost loved ones, have been near death myself, have been ridiculed because of my faith and apologetically, have been argued circles around; but I haven't sweat drops of blood, been turned in by my own family for following Christ, or been asked to sacrifice my son as a test of faith, I've not languished in gulag for non-existant crimes, sacrificed a child so that others would have the opportunity to know me, ...... Therefore , since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounfing us, let us lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

an unworthy servant

[sinjin smithe]

My first thought was; blanket statements are bad, i.e; "...those who speak of suffering, are never in the process of suffering or enduring great pain" How do you know this, as just one of the billions upon the earth?

How do I know this? Because every piece of platitude and mantra filled advice has come from those who are not currently in the fire.

[Richard McBride]

Saint Maximos the Confessor says:

Nature does not contain... the laws of what is contrary to nature... [which is to say], the indescribable pain brought about by the privation of ... plaeasure. This pain God naturally produces in the unworthy when He is united to them in a manner contrary to grace. For God is united with all men according to the underlying quality of their inner state;

When God the Logos created human nature He did not make the senses susceptible either to pleasrue or to pain; instead, He implanted in it a certain noetic capacity through which men could enjoy Him in an inexpressible way... [through] the intellect's natural longing for God. But on his creation, the first man, through an initial movement towards sensible objects, transferred this longing in a way which is contrary to nature. Whereupon God in His providential care for our salvation implanted pain in us as a kind of chastising force; and so through pain the law of death was wisely rooted in the body, thus setting limits to the intellect's manic longing, directed, in a manner contrary to nature, towards sensible objects.
The Philokalia; v.II; 240, 243;

[Owen Jones]

Sinjin,

This has nothing to do with theology. You are personally bitter about something and until you deal with that, no argument or explanation will suffice.

[Loretta]

What exactly do you mean by offering it up? How does one do that? What do you do when it does not work that 1% of the time?

I believe we are all one in the body of Christ. Whatever the pain I suffer, I try to do so for the intention of my brothers and sisters. When I have pain I pray that my suffering will relieve the suffering of others. I thank the Lord for the opportunity to share in their sufferings. The worst suffering is suffering alone.

As for the "1% of the time", I know that being a sinner I deserve to suffer the consequences of pain. All the Lord gives or allows is for the good of my soul. I trust in Him - He will not abandon me - He will mold me and lead me. If I am to follow Christ, in the fullness of my humanity I must follow Him in His joy, gladness, love, pain and sorrow.


"...those who speak of suffering, are never in the process of suffering or enduring great pain"

Have those who spoke of love, never experienced love - or those who spoke of hatred, never hated - or those who spoke of God, never knew Him? True that some persons speak of things they know nothing about, but somehow, through the grace of God, when we hear from someone who is speaking from personal knowledge there is a sense of truth that our souls can recognize.

Thank you Mr. Anthony, Mr. Jones and Mr. McBride for insightful, inspiring postings.

[Moses Anthony]

Sinjin,
I am in agreement with Owen, concerning your current attitude towards suffering!

t.u.s

[Deiniol Clarke]

Hey,

May I ask why you think that because Christ is God, he can withstand suffering more than us? You mustn't forget the fact, that Jesus was part man - part God, well actually, the two things amalgamated into one - this is a mystery; another subject. We should note, that Christ suffered just as much as any man would on a cross; for this we adore Christ - the pain embraced by God on the cross must have been more, not less - think about it - he was offered vinegar (or some like substance) to ease the pain, but in his humility, replied "no!" The pain suffered by Christ therefore was no less.

Additionally, Orthodoxy offers the view of suffering in a mental way supplementing the physical. Moreover, Orthodoxy stresses that every humble man searching in the fear of God, will suffer - didn't the early Christians? Therefore this is humble, and the fear and suffering we embrace only reflects Christ's painful release on the cross!

Yours in Christ,
Deiniol

[Vladimir KRESS]

May I ask why you think that because Christ is God, he can withstand suffering more than us?

I don't know who here asked this!!!!! Chirst obviously suffered a great deal. But he persevered in his suffering.


You mustn't forget the fact, that Jesus was part man - part God

Actually, this is heresy (some kind of modified nestorianism, a "tertium quid" that's not either of its parts).


well actually, the two things amalgamated into one

This is also heresy (apollinarianism).

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Vladimir and others,

Perhaps Deiniol's comment was extrapolated from the reference, above, to St Maximos, which may appear at first reading to suggest this (however, such is not Maximos' intention). It is clear in Orthodox thought that Christ, that is, God come to exist as man, suffered in His person - not only in the Passion but also in the whole of His life, physically, mentally, and spiritually (and thus, in that order, the conflicts with docetism, monophysitism, and monotheletism, as well as their variants).

What it means for the eternal Logos to suffer as man is a deep question that centres upon the issue of divine impassibility. We find it hard to speak or write about it, because the words we use, the images we employ, always have rather severe shortcomings and limitations. Apophasis becomes essential.

INXC, Matthew

[Catholic]

I noticed this thread near the top of the list, even though no one has posted on it for a while.
How one deals with suffering is a good question. Maybe some posters want to continue this discussion.

[Arsenios]

Catholic writes:

> How one deals with suffering is a good question.
> Maybe some posters want to continue this
> discussion.

The basic Christian approach is to glorify God in all things, and this includes suffering, which along with pleasure, will pass... So that as we "mortify our members", we begin to avoid pleasures, and to embrace the discomforts associated with the praxis of the faith - The discomfort of fasting, all night vigils, standing long times in prayer services, labors, and all the associated ascetic labors of the praxis of the faith, regardless of how we may be feeling at the time. In a word, we force ourselves, living within an ever expanding rule of prayer and fasting and obedience and services and other practices, all of which are designed to help us rid ourselves of our pandering to the concerns of the world, and our self and our pleasures and pains, within it, and to focus solely upon the matters of God.

In a word, the whole constitutes repentance...

So that in the pursuit of and contending for the faith, suffering is welcomed for its beneficial effects, and this gradually, unless one enters the closely supervised monastic rigors, in which case the matters are less gradual...

When it comes to acute physical pain, associated with injuries or diseases, we seek its relief, of course... We only try to embrace our own pains, as best we can, and never tell anyone else to embrace theirs... Feeding the hungry is equally important, I should think, to fasting... Both are needed...

So these are a few words... Some of them may even be true! I am far too young in the faith to be much of an 'expert'... But I hope that this may prove beneficial...

geo

[Catholic]

Yes geo, I think you are speaking to the poster's original point of 'people are talking about suffering who aren't suffering at the time!' - when you say, "Don't tell others to embrace theirs" - that is a thought-provoking statement. Anyway - I don't know if the original poster (sinjin) is reading this, but I thought it addressed that point.....
Reading the lives of the saints, one is always struck by their acceptance of whatever God brought them, including trials and physical sufferings....

[Arsenios]

Catholic writes:

> Reading the lives of the saints, one is always
> struck by their acceptance of whatever God
> brought them, including trials and physical
> sufferings...

The lives of the saints are the best! And they not only do not complain about trials and sufferings, but welcome them in joy and gratitude, and when persecuted, are found praying fervently for their persecutors...

Yet the path of monastics is itself martyrial, even outside of external persecutions, for the motor of spiritual development is in part the voluntary assumption of the suffering of one's own cross. The west does not seem to understand this ascetic labor much, and it is often caricatured as 'punishing the flesh', as if the flesh is guilty, and deserves punishment. And this caricature, of course, lends itself easily to riotous humor routines...

I have in mind Saint Herman of Alaska, who lived to a ripe old age on an island with the Aleuts, and when he finally reposed, the Aleuts were astonished to find, welded around his waist, a 30 pound iron chain, that had been there since he had left Russia, and nobody ever knew he had it, for he kept it carefully concealed, and it had to have been a constant source of discomfort for him, and I do not know, but I should imagine, that it served as a constant and insistent reminder to the saint of God, to remember God in every nanosecond of his holy life...

Perhaps Father Averky could explain such an ascetic labor a little - Maybe it is better not explained - It is certainly not something one just up and does on one's own, but only as an obedience to one's spiritual father... It is all pretty advanced stuff - The meat of Christianity, as opposed to the milk - And I am most certainly but a milk sipper.

A couple of young men accompanied a Greek elder to Mt. Athos last year - He was an old man, and they were barely 20, and they were along to learn, and to do the heavier work, to help the old man out on the journey... Well, it turned out that they were unable to keep up with him... They never saw him sleep... He put them to bed, and got them up a few hours later, every night, making sure they made it to all services, and never was seen to rest...

But saints are men living as angels, so we cannot really judge them all that much - I am in awe of Orthodox saints... And of Mother Theresa, for that matter... I heard her address congress on abortion... "Give them [the children] to me - Don't kill them in the womb!"

Amen to that! There is one place on earth where a child should be absolutely safe, and that is in it's own mother's womb....

[geo] Arsenios

[Catholic]

Thank you geo.

Actually I was including western saints in my remark about acceptance of any and all events, including pain and sufferings, as coming directly or as allowed by God.
I do not know why one would leave out the west in affirming asceticism.

East or west, may we learn to emulate them!

[Johanna]

Sharing in Christ’s sufferings has been so foreign to me. Coming from an evangelical Protestant background, not much was ever said about suffering or taking up one’s cross and following Christ. I spent the majority of my Christian life seeking personal comfort and running from any hint of suffering. Being taught I was “saved” now and everything will be great and wonderful. When trials came, I either fled, pretended I was at peace through them or wallowed in self-pity until the trial passed by. But now as a nine-month-old Orthodox Christian, I am learning there is something very beneficial in drinking from that cup of suffering that is given to me. I am just beginning to realize the importance of embracing the suffering rather than fleeing, but I find I still have a tendency to want to find a way of escape. After reading a book about Father Arseny and all the suffering he endured without complaint, I just sat there dumbfounded. I cannot even begin to comprehend how a human can endure such suffering and torture and remain at peace. I don’t know what it takes to get to this place. For I am so weak and immature that fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays at times is a challenge for me. Is this ability to suffer without complaint or inner disturbance something that comes with maturity? How does a person learn to truly share in Christ’s sufferings without looking for every possible way of escape?

In Christ,

Johanna

[Arsenios]

Catholic writes:


Actually I was including western saints in my remark about acceptance of any and all events, including pain and sufferings, as coming directly or as allowed by God.

Even Protestants, the better ones, believe that as well - at least in theory. But living an ascetic life of self denial and self-deprivation, even over and above the "normal" askesis prescribed by the Church, is not a matter normally for someone to take on under one's own initiative. Troubles normally await that course, chief of which is pretty much inescapable vain-glory and self-esteem. Obedience to a Church elder seems about the only thing that can get around this obstacle...


I do not know why one would leave out the west in affirming asceticism. East or west, may we learn to emulate them!

Well, therein lies the rub, Elizabeth - We cannot emulate them on our own, but only under direction, and that [spiritual direction] only within the aegis of the Church, and there, only with an experienced elder. I sure don't do it! I still struggle with the basics of the faith, newbe that I am... But never in my wildest would I self initiate some program of ascetic labor and endeavor... I got ego problems enough without that! :-)

So emulation would seem to mean entering the Church and seeking out a spiritual father who would give one direction...

[geo] Arsenios

[Fr Averky]

Dear Professor McBride and "Seeker,"

Here is the information I mentioned to you:

The University of Leeds and the University of Utrecht have announced a second in a series of international conferences. This will be held in Utrecht on June 21-24, 2004, and its theme will be 'AESTHETICS as a RELIGIOUS FACTOR in EASTERN AND WESTERN CHRISTIANITY." The organizers, Dr. Johnathan Sutton (Leeds), and Professor Wil van den Bercken (Utrecht), invite papers, and ask that abstracts or paper proposals be sent to the organizers no later than December 15.

Contact details: Dr. Sutton: j.f.sutton@leeds.ac.uk

Prof. van den Bercken:wvdbercken@theo.uu.nl

The universities also announce that a collection of thirty three papers from the June 2001 conference on "Orthodox Christianity and Contemporary Europe." is now in print.

( from: The Shepherd, Volume XXIV No.2 October 2003)

Forgive me for getting the location wrong, but still, I thought you might find it interesting, if only for the papers available.

Respectfully yours,

Fr. A.

[Catholic]

I didn't mean by 'emulate' trying to do anything unusual or overly austere. I just meant to live a Christian life... according to our state in life.
Thanks Arsenios!

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Father A,

many thanks for this. I should like to attend, if possible, together with a friend who is studying aesthetics from the Aristotelian standpoint as a particular thread in his philosophy course.

the seeker

[Moses Anthony]

Dear In the Lord Johanna'

I do ot know if this will answer the question you asked in your post yesterday (Thursday, Nov. 13th, 2003).

In my profession (Corrections Officer/prison guard) one of the givens is noise. Quite often a component of that is inmates saying everything about you under the sun. They will pick out a physical feature, or something about your family, co-workers,anything, and begin to heap such verbal abuse on you that you either cry or burst into anger. Regardless of which, you inwardly cringe. The main reason for this abuse is to see what type of reaction they can get from you. It's a game to them; to which, if you react in anger, they win!

But, how you ask/wonder, does a person get to the point of bearing such abuse in a Christian manner, as did Fr. Arseny? Sometimes when they say something about how I look, I'll say, "That's obvious, so what?" At other times I feel like Lot when he lived in Sodom, "That righteious mans soul was afflicted..."

On the purely professional level, our supervisors tell us, "Don't let them steal your cool." Unbeknownst to them, for me it is more than just a way to behave professonally. I am however far from the type of love, humility, piety, and experience, exmplified by Fr. Arseny.

Sometimes the natural bent of our character, moves us to respond in a certain manner to adverse stimuli. This is all the more profitable to us, if when we respond it is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit!

Sometimes I still get angry, often I feel hurt and don't think I could take another moment of what we hear daily, and I utter a silent cry to the Thetokos, and to God. Lest you think more of me than you should, I have more than once told an inmate, "God will repay you for how you have treated me." all the while thinking, "Take no thought for your own vengence, but leave room for the wrath of God. For vengence is mine, I will repay says the Lord."

Sometimes I think of it as "the backside of the desert", where the windblown sand will strip away any veneer of pride and vainglory.

Maybe the Fr.'s in the group, or the Archbishop's will give you a more straight Orthodox answer, than what I've attempted.

a sinful and unworthy servant