Man's fear of death

[John Curtis Dunn]

Posted by Euterpe Ganatsios on Tuesday, 29 April, 2003 - 6:59 am:

I would like to start a discussion about why we feel the need for a
relationship with God. I know I sound very gauche but it’s something
that I have been thinking about and I need the informed opinions of
the people on this forum.

My question is : is the fear of death the main reason people seek God?

Is all religion just a self-illusion because of our fear of death?
--------

I believe this is a most fitting topic, especially during a Paschal season. As Orthodox one of our greatest Theological assertions about the Resurrection of Christ is:

For by death He (Christ) conquered death.

This is the heart of the Orthodox Gospel, which is unlike the "substitutionary atonement" doctrine which is widely preached by many to have been the purpose of the Cross. A doctrine to which the Resurrection presents no "Victory or triumph" over death. The Resurrection is certainly believed to have happened by many who confess to believe the purpose of the Cross was to alleviate God of his own theological delimna as to how to save man while meeting his own existential need to satisfy his anger against mankind. And it certainly takes place because of Christ's sinlessness, but as such it is given to Christ as a reward for his keeping the commandments without sin. However, this doctinal sentiment fails to attain the theological height of Orthodoxy when it confessess, For by death, has He (Christ) conquered death.

In a more direct reply to the questioned posed by Euterpe Ganatsios above:

I do not believe the fear of death is the main reason people seek God. Fear of punishment maybe...and for most God's greatest punishment is that he inflicted death upon the human race because of Adam's sin. That sentiment is not Orthodox, but many who call themselves Christans do believe it to be orthodox to confess it.

I believe Dostoyevsky summerized precisly what it is in man that motivates him/her to seek for God:

]i{Beauty will save the world.}

Those who love God seek that which is beautiful, a sentiment clearly and most dearly expressed in the motivaion for why Russia became Orthodox. It is why I fell in love with Orthodoxy. I would argue that "All beauty brings us closer to our Creator Who ordered the Universe into existence and saw that it was Good (reflecive of His own Image, which is macrocosmically held within each human person by nature and in potential)."

Death is corruption of that beauty which animates and refracts itself through the heart and soul of the essence of what it means to be a person. God is Beauty, Christ is beauty Incarnate, the Theotokos is the most Beautiful of all God's Creations, the Church is the Beautiful New Creation of God's inexpressible Love for mankind and for the whole world For God so loved he world....

When the above is heard, learned and believed, it captivates the essence of being a person created in the image of God and motivates him/her to seek God who is most beautiful and who has made himself known in the beauty of His holiness. That holiness is in all things which God has created, but it resides quintessentially in each individual person who is the macrocosmic Creation of God's Love.

It resides, but remains to be made manifest by and through the active paricpation of each person. Death corrupts beauty, not that beauty which is God's by his own nature and essence, but that beauty which is in Creation by God' love and design as a gift of His Love to that Creation.

Death can instill fear and imperfectly motivate man to seek life (however his understanding cogitates what is life or the meaning and purpose for his/her own existence). For some (particuliarly those who live in nations where Christianiy, whether Orthodox or hetrodox, has transformed the culture) this means seeking after God (however they understand God), however, for other societies where Christianity (Orthodox or hetrodox) has not culturally transformed the worldview of the culture, God is not the end or goal to which they seek, even in their escape from death.

I have other thoughts and meditations I could write, but shall wait to see how the thread develops.

Thanks for the question.

john

[Richard Leigh]

Hi John.

I’m so glad you brought this up, and that Euterpe asked the question. I agree with you John, it is a most fitting topic. I have a great interest in this question myself and my perspective is that of a Western Christian of Continental (European continental, yea Evangelische Protestant Reform who has, on top of all this a yearning interest in Patristic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and the apparent divisions in the church.

I’d like to go over that assertion of yours, John, that the liturgical cry and confession
“For by death He (Christ) conquered death.” is (1) “the heart of the Orthodox gospel,” and (2) is “unlike the ‘substitutionary atonement’ doctrine which is preached…” etc. From what follows in what you said I gather your emphasis is on the word “conquered.” Those of us who take the scriptural statement that Christ died that we might have life to mean that he who had no sin died for sin that we have so that we who know sin might yet live. The rest of that story is that the life we live we live in him which he has in the resurrection. The heart of your Orthodox gospel is indeed the heart of the gospel and there is no contradiction between it and the substitutionary atonement that is taught in scripture, and believed on and confessed in Western Christianity, Protestant or not.

It is true that the Western emphasis is on the death of Christ but not without the realization that the death is meaningless without the resurrection. Everyone dies for their own sin, according to scripture, so, what’s one more death? There were hundreds of thousands of crucifixions, what makes this one different? Was it that this man was innocent of any crime deserving of, not only the death penalty but the most cruelly devised execution of such a penalty ever conceived? Or was it more than that? Wasn’t it that all the foregoing was merely type and metaphor of the true statement of the case, that we had here not only civil and political innocence, but true moral sinlessness, and not only a man dying, but God? And isn’t it that sin is deserving of death? Thus the Western tack on the subject. You stated that that is not Orthodox, and I’ve heard that before, but I believe it must be, that perhaps it simply is not finding currency at this time but it is surely taught in scripture, therefore true, and as I have so far been taught to believe, therefore Orthodox. We need not waste time here asking whose sin does one deserve death for, one’s father’s (even that of the father of the whole race), or one’s own. I know that the patristic take on the relationship between sin and death is that sin is motivated by the fear of death. I’d like to point out here that the epistle writer, presumably the same as the evangelist (yea, the Theologian) John writes that the fear that perfect love casts out is the fear of punishment, leaving unsaid whether that punishment is death or perdition. But the fathers of the church will say with scripture that even so, death came into the world through Adam’s sin. That leaves us either sinning because we’ll die, or dying because we do sin, and Augustine’s insight that the certainty of sin in any human’s life points to the “lapsed” or “fallen” condition of the whole race; not that Adam’s sin was a necessity, but that since our own rescue from such a habitual God spurning activity can only be brought about by God himself (we cannot save ourselves), our race was otherwise necessarily bound, i.e., to sin. The Western emphasis on death is linked to its being the answer to sin, and we see the defeat of sin as the means to defeat death. The Eastern perspective, as I’m sure you all know is that the defeat of death (and thus the need to fear it) is the defeat of sin. I personally don’t see these perspectives as being exclusive of each other. In fact, because I don’t see our own Western perspective as telling the whole story (scripture is, after all very long and complicated), I rejoice at seeing “the rest of the story” provided from the East.

Regarding your “more direct reply” to Euterpe’s question I’d like to point out that when we speak of “death” as being in any way unnatural, I think that the fathers, at least the Cappadocians, say that it is only the death of humans that is unnatural. Basil has no animals in Paradise except when God brought them in for Adam to name, leaving “death” i.e., animals dying, outside paradise, where our first parents lived. But natural death of animals which has no beauty for those of us who don’t know where to look certainly becomes a metaphor of the disjunction between God and those creatures he made for personal relationship with him. In fact, animal life is metaphor of that eternal existence with him or joyous continual relationship, hence the term “Life eternal (or, “unto the ages”).”

So, I’d like to say to all, but particularly to Euterpe, that in my opinion the reason we feel the need for God is that the image and likeness to him in which God created our first parents, and by extension us, is a “shape” that corresponds to him, for the purpose of communion with him that we cannot have without his intervention, will not even commence without his igniting it. All this because nobody is born in paradise, that is something we’re “born from above” to, according to the evangelist (and I’m sure theologian) John. None the less, we are all born in this “shape” which requires filling, and I am pretty sure this idea is one of Augustine’s, which doesn’t make it a bad one, after all not even all of Origen’s ideas were bad.

My short answer to your second question, “Is all religion just a self-illusion because of the fear of death”
is “no, not quite,” the long answer is: all false religion is indeed self delusion (I think is a better word), but not from the fear of death, rather, simply from having put ourselves in God’s place in our ego-centricity (like the sin of The Evil One himself whom we imitate as “father”), but we human beings are, in my opinion desperately trying to make up for a relationship with the Divine and Eternal which we cannot have, as I said, if we are to be our own “gods”, the exact antithesis to deification we have in the True Holy and Triune God.

Regards,

Richard

[Owen Jones]

Let's not forget that the modern focus on "fear of death" is a theory propounded by Freud as the foundation of all religion. He believed that religion was a historical phenomenon that developed out of the human need to compensate for the fear of death. Also, he saw religion is a social control mechanism used to repress our instinctual desires, which he saw as necessary for the formation and development of civilization. So he was not hostile to religion (for the masses); he saw it as a necessary illusion.

Neurosis, in Freud's theory, is the result of this necessary repression of instinctual desires that is the pre-requisite of civilization. Psychiatry, therefore, is the means by which intelligent people are able to explore what they have repressed and raise it to a level of analytical self-understanding, can overcome neurosis.

As Richard has pointed out, the Christian fear is not a fear of death per se, but a fear of living under condemnation by God.

As for the Atonement, I do not quite understand why so many contemporary Orthodox opinion makers wish to deny the doctrine of forensic atonement altogether, as if it has no Judaic, Biblical basis, and as if somehow it contradicts Orthodox doctrine. The problem arises when this or any other doctrine is raised exclusively as the end of everything. In many forms of Protestantism, there is a reversion to a strictly Judaic mentality which says that we can only hope to be treated as if we were sinless. I.E., salvation is God's mercy and nothing more. WE ought not over-react to that by denying any doctrine of forensic atonement.

By the way, coming out of Anglicanism as I did (for about 15 years anyway), the modernist presumption in Anglicanism is that there is nothing but resurrection. There is no atonement because we have nothing that needs to be atoned for. There really is no such thing as sin. What the ancients perceived as sin is merely the result of unjust social relationships that cause prejudice and conflict. A resurrected person is a tolerant liberal.

[Lawrence]

When we sin we separate ourselves from God by acting autonomously. For if we remember God we either do not sin or we choose to ignore Him.
Death is when we are separated from God.

I do not fear death now because death was trampled down by death through Christ. I fear separation from God though and my will. Through a moment of intense separation from God and through his Grace I, a prodigal, began my journey home with a humble and contrite heart, was greeted with open arms and the work began. But I am careless and separate myself but return through repentenence and communion.

Religion is just a word to describe a grouping of dogmatic thought. We need a way of life and that is to follow the Truth. Sometimes the truth is reality sometimes it is symbolic. There is the building and there is the scaffolding. We need the scaffolding so we can build the building.

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Your Faith (Religion) is a way of life. If it is not a Way of Life, then it is just an interest like sport, which for some people is a religion.

[Lawrence]

then it is just an interest like sport

Br Paul I take this to mean an interest in a sport as a spectator. Would you agree that if Faith is a Way of Life then we participate in the sport as atheletes. Our Faith is a verb and not a noun - as we actively follow the services of the Church we are participating in the Life of Christ as spiritual atheletes.

My thought is that we are in training now in flesh and spirit so we can continue to participate in the Spirit at our repose and not be separated from God.

[John Curtis Dunn]

Richard Leigh wrote: "I have... a yearning interest in Patristic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and the apparent divisions in the church."

I do not know what you mean by *apparent
divisions*?
----
also: The heart of your Orthodox gospel is indeed the heart of the gospel and there is no contradiction between it and the substitutionary atonement that is taught in scripture, and believed on and confessed in Western Christianity, Protestant or not.

My words were directed to the purpose of the Cross as it is confessed in Orthodoxy (and I must ask Owen to produce the Orthodox liturgical confession and hymns and prayers in which we profess to believe in the substitutionary atonement theory, the purpose of the Cross as we Orthodox confess is not the same as that to which the doctrine of the Substitutionary Atonement teaches. By stating that, I am not saying that the Substitutionary Atonement fails to reconcile its teaching with the verses to which Richard alluded.

Neither did I deny that the Resurrection has any theological value to add to the Substitutionary Atonement teaching. What I did say was that in this teaching the Resurrection "is given to Christ as a reward for his keeping the commandments without sin." The Resurrection is subservient to the Divine Resolution of the Substitutionary Atonement, which is how God reconciles within Himself the tension caused by his desire to pardon man and His necessity to quench his unpardonable anger against man.

The passage of 1 John 4:18 does not identify the *punishment* with God, but with the fear. We read in the parable of the wicked servant who hid his talent, that his fear of punishment stagnated his keeping the will of his master. Was his master vengeful? NO, as with the others to whom talents had been given, each received their reward according to their having labored to please their master. So, witht he wicked servant, he received precisely that which he had to offer. What did he offer? Fear, and what did he receive: Punishment. But the punishment which he received was directly in accordance to the fear which he offered to his master.

St. John does not say that God is the source of this fear or punishment, rather it originates from within the man who does not know and love God. That is the corruption of the beauty of God's love for mankind, which does not originate from God, but from sin and man's fear of death.

The context of the passage directs our attention toward having boldness on the day of judgement, which is precisely what is set forth for us in the parable of the Talents. Those who loved their master did not fear to invest their talents, because they knew God to be merciful, and a just rewarder of all their efforts. Love for their master motivated them to labor even in the face of the possiblility of loss of their talent in the marketplace.

This same thing is true for us, (though I say us, I can only truly speak for myself, but I assume that I am not alone), we fail to keep the commandments and fulfill the will of God out of fear. We become angry with each other because we fear, we lie because we fear, we covet and steal because we fear.

WE do not follow the example of St. Barbara whose love for God exceeded her love for her father. How many times I have heard or read how we excuse ourselves from keeping the fasts of the Orthodox Faith in the presences of parents, family or even friends, because of fear. We fear embarrassment, mis-understanding, harassment, appearing fanatical, being perceived as judgmental or holier than thou.

We do not follow the Saints who gave all they had to the poor because of our fear, fear of what shall we eat, what shall we wear, where shall we sleep, etc... Were is it in our lives that we do not follow Christ, that is to take up our Cross and follow Him. We excuse ourselves from the perfect path of salvation which our Lord described as "Go sell all you have and give to the poor, then follow me." We sell in order to receive that we might alleviate the fears of food, clothing and shelter.

I have not yet overcome my fear of death, though daily I pray and strive to attain that perfect love.

john

[Owen Jones]

Dear John,

How do the Fathers interpret Mark 10:45?

[Lawrence]

Fear brings us to love and love purifies us. When we are purified we have perfect love which casts out fear.

To establish this fear we need to lay aside all worldly cares. To bury one's talent is to completely invest it in worldy cares and never lift our hearts above them. This servant was proud and didn't multiply his talents. We as the other servants must remain humble and continue to work with what we are given because to whom much is given, much will be required. If we become satisfied with our talent we will lose it. They all feared the Lord but the first two feared Him with all their talents and the last through only his knowledge and was satisfied with his current state because he was not humble and afraid to lay aside all earthly cares and coveted the talent as did Judas.

Fear comes up a lot in the liturgy so we are taught to fear but to also approach with faith to the steadfast love of the Lord.

The First Antiphon
As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear him.
But the steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon those who fear Him.

The Second Antiphon of The Nativity of Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who greatly delights in His commandments!

The Third Antiphon of the Theophany of Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ
The Third Antiphon of The Entrance of our Lord Jesus Christ into Jerusalem
Let those who fear the Lord say: For He is good, for His mercy endures forever!

The Epistle Reading
Open the eyes of our mind to the understanding of Thy gospel teachings. Implant also in us the fear of Thy commandments, that, trampling down all carnal desires, we may enter upon a spiritual manner of living, both thinking and doing such things as are well-pleasing unto Thee.

The Anaphora
Let us stand aright! Let us stand with fear! Let us attend, that we may offer the Holy Oblation in peace.

The Communion
In the fear of God, and with faith, draw near!

The Prayer before the Ambo
O fear the Lord, all His saints, for those who fear Him shall have no want!

As the rich young ruler kept the commandments not through fear and love but was prideful and could not lay aside all earthly cares but tries to appease the Lord through empty appellation. He addressed the Lord as if he was supreme but regarded him as a mere man such as himself and tried to catch him with his words he was like the last servant not using his talent and Judas complaining at the Lords annointing, his betrayal and kiss.

John, I think that I would replace your fear with my pride. Thank you this was a most enjoyable exercise.

In Christ, Lawrence

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Sport/Religion-Faith

Some sporting people give a 100% to there sport and it becomes there religion. It is their life 24/7. That is what I desire for my Faith/Religion to give 100% 24/7 total. Some people think that going to Church on Sundays and some Feasts is enough. Our Faith is much more then that. God does'nt have a holiday in his love for us/ so why do we???

So we strive to become a Saint here on earth, we battle 24/7 to reach that goal. When do we know if we reach that goal? Judgement Day?? I will leave that up to my Heavenly Father and with the help of my Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, Saints, I will strive for that goal.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Br. Paul,

If only I had your zeal and ability to even be able to think about wanting to give 100% 24/7! For me the spiritual ife is not the desire to become a saint here on earth but to see this time which God has given to me as a preparation for Eternal Life. We all know that throughout our lives we are given so many opportunities to accept with love, faith and humility, our Saviour, or to reject Him.
As I look back upon my own life and see the many opportunities for God's blessings that I did not take, how my pride stood in the way of His love, how I could not make God the center of my life, because I could simply not get out of the way, and how many countless times I have not loved my brother as myself, I personally cannot think about being a saint at all, but relying upon God's mercy, ask only to be found worthy of His Kingdom despite my many sins.

I don't think that I ever experienced a Great Lent that went by so quickly, and for the first time in my life, I have a sense of urgency to really try to repent, to love God and my neighbor as myself.

Not too long ago, I mentioned to someone that Queen Elizabeth I of England's last words on this earth were "All my possessions for just five more minutes." I found these words sobering, for I think of that day or night when I will be called before the Dread Judgement Throne of Christ, and my fear is not that of death, for as people have already said so much more eloquently than I that Christ has already trampled down death, but I fear that I will not have used the time remaining to me to my spiritual advantage, working towards my salvation. Ever falling into my old sins and passions, failing in my love for my God and for Mankind, created in His image, still struggling with pride and self will, and all my other sins and failings, I pray that God will give me yet more time, in the hopes that I will be able to repent before my end.


As many of you know, I am extremely ill, and live by God's mercy and a dialysis machine. Day after day, I have to endure attaching myself to bags of solution and to this machine, without which I would quietly die in less than four days. It does not hurt, it keeps me alive, and yet I at times feel like I am actually dead, but am kept functioning by a machine, tubes, and a saline solutiion. One has to experience this to understand that of which I speak. How easy it would be to simply not do it, lie in bed or sit in my comfortable recliner and go to sleep, never to awaken again. But I know that to do so would be to cheat myself. I have been told that to stop using my machine would be to excercise my right to refuse further treament, but it would also mean that in so doing, I would be refusing to make use of the valuable time given to me for repentance, if only for five more minutes... The Good Thief had but a few minutes, but he gained Paradise, and I beg God for those few minutes as well.

From time to time I think to myself that I could not possibly hurt more or in more places than I do, but then, I do. The Holy Fathers tell us that sickness and suffering are results of sin, and I know how very sinful I have been. Therefore, Brother Paul, I seek not sancticty in the world, but try cheerfully to accept all that God has sent me in sickness and in trials and sorrows, in being maligned and slandered, in my loneliness, suffering and pain. One of the Optina Elders said that if we are very ill for a long time, it is to purify us, but if the pain and suffering continues, then we are being given Blessedness.

I have no fear of death, for to me, death will mean and end to suffering in this world, freedom from sorrows, and trials. God has given me much in the last seven years, and they have been the very worst and the very best for me. I can only hope and pray, Brother, that God will accept my willingly having suffered for my sins, and that He will graciously accept my humble offering of prayers and repentance. I have always been a bit of a misnathrop, but I have never loved people as I do now, and there is a joy in that that I cannot express. When I say my prayers, when I read the Holy Scriptures, it is with an understanding - a new revelation for which I am most grateful. I have never experienced the faith in my Saviour that I have been given through long hours of intense pain and loneliness. I look upon everything with new eyes, softer, and more tenderly, and I see how many people have loved me, tolerating my bad moods brought on by illness and sometimes despair and impatience for many years, never ceasing to forgive me or halt their comforting prayers for me. My heart reaches out to those who are suffering, and I only wish that I could bow and humbly ask forgiveness of all those I have hurt and offended in my life, telling each one it hurts me now to realize how much even a thoughtless comment can hurt another.

Brother Paul, and all my brothers and sisters in this community - I look around me, and I see nothing but God's love and mercy and forgiveness, and I long to be with Him forever. Death has lost its sting for me, and I can only ask God to show His servant mercy at the end. God bless you, and pray for me, as I will for you.

Father Averky

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Fr Averky,

I thank God to know you are human. You don't have to think about giving 100%, you do it with out thinking. We all fall short, we are human, we fall and we pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off and walk on. I know the word saint is used so often in the wrong term. A saint to me is some one who has run the race and has recieved their reward. I don't believe there are saints on earth, just people trying to be, Saints are in heaven. We all come in contact with saintly/holy type of people that we look up to and admire. I strive to be Christ like, a real Christian.

Last year prior to me being vested into the Monastery I was very seriously ill. I contracted Transverse Myelitis, I had no feeling or movement from the waste down. It was a blessing for me, to be humbled in that condition and to see the power of prayer, especially by the people about me and my Spiritual Father. As always, my life was in my Heavenly Fathers Hands to do with as He wishes. It was not to be a perminant condition for me, my Heavenly Fathers has other plans for me. I am now out of Hospital and once again walking and working again as my Father desires of me. It was a great opportunity for me to offer up this suffering to my God, lots of little miracles happened about me.
When I fall short in my walk, I remember those people that my Lord gathered about him, they were not saints, just men and women who also fell short, just forgiven by God. The tears of Peter and Mary Magdelane, just two that come to mind. The words that Christ spoke, "he who is with out sin, let him cast the first stone." I hold these word so close to my heart and remember every day, when I meet people who fall short or when I do. Christ could have thrown that stone, but He didn't.

Death has no fear for me also, I must be ready always for when I am called, not knowing the time.

Yours Prayers Father.
Br Paul

[Daniel Jeandet]

Good stuff.

Jesus has given 100% for all of us, only he can, and always and only for us.

I hope I dont die soon.

[(priest) patrick james]

I hope you don't too Dan! Our Blessed Saviour is the still point of this ever turning world. Passing through the gates of death we shall then begin to behold things as they really are. What a surprise awaits us all. I fear death because I am acutely aware of my lack of a consitently repentant life. As the Lord says of "that day", it shall come like a thief in the night. So too shall death for many of us. As a child we were taught to pray for the gift of final perseverance, I still believe that to be a most sober prayer for all followers of Christ. I hope I believe in God, but I take great comfort that God believes in me and that He also expects of me a repentant and contrite heart....still working a little on that one.

[John Curtis Dunn]

How do the Fathers interpret Mark 10:45?
-----

We have just this week celebrated the meaning of this passage and its synoptic passages Matt. 20:28; 1Tim 2:6.

We heard St. John Chrysostom expound the meaning of these passages at the end of our Paschal Matins.

"...Let no one fear death, for the Saviour's death has freed us. He quenched it by being detained by it. He Who went down into hell, despoiled hell. And hell was embittered when it tasted His flesh, Isaiah anticipated this and cried: "Hell, he says, was embittered when it met Thee below." It was embittered for it was emptied. It was embittered for it was mocked. It was embittered for it was destroyed. It was embittered for it was bound. It took a body, and encountered God. It took earth, and met Heaven. It took what it saw, and fell where it had not seen. Death, where is thy sting? O hell, where is thy victory? Christ is risen and thou art dethroned. Christ is risen and the demons have fallen. Christ is risen and the Angels rejoice. Christ is risen and life is liberated. Christ is risen and there is none dead in the tomb. For Christ has risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion to the ages of ages. Amen"

Likewise, we Orthodox also sing: "Though Thou didst descend into the grave, O Immortal One, yet didst Thou destroy the power of hell, and didst rise again as Conqueror, O Christ our God, Saying to the myrrhbearing women, Rejoice! and giving peace to Thine Apostles, and offering to the fallen resurrection. Kontakion for the Feast, Tone 8

A ransom is bribe money given to those who hold under their power a property or relation(ship) which does not belong to them. Who held us? The Devil. How did he hold us? By the power of death. Our Lord Jesus Christ out deceived the great deceiver of mankind. The ransom he gave was his own death, only the Devil did not know it, for if he had, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory. The ransom given was like an exploding bank bag often given Thieves who hold up banks. Christ's power over death was hidden/cloaked in His likeness to mankind: i.e. His flesh. This deception began in the flesh when He was conceived in the womb of the Most Holy Theotokos at the Annunciation.

The Cross was not given to Christ as a punishment for sin (neither His, of which there was none; or ours, of which there was plenty). Death had NO power over Christ because He was without sin. The Cross was how Christ choose to decieve the Devil. All this is set forth quite clearly by the Apostle Paul in Galations. The curse of the Law was death to all who did not continue in all things written in the Law. Christ was not subject to that curse, because He was without sin. So our Lord, in whom death had no power, because He was without sin, deceived the Devil and death. How, by exchanging the curse of the Law for the curse of the Cross.

Christ appeared by voluntary death on the Cross, appeared to be under the power of death. "He saved others, but cannot save Himself." The Devil, who knew the Scriptures (only he could not and did not understand the Prophesies concerning Christ, which were written so as to decieve him), also knew Deut. 21:23: "Cursed by God is everyone who is hanged on a tree." Thus, Christ who was not under the curse of the Law, appears to the Devil and death to be under a Curse.

Christ freely took upon Himself a different Curse inorder that He might enter into death and deliver us from death. The Cross is our salvation, because it is the door of entrance of Christ into death. In this manner, Christ became our substitution or ransom. St. Gregory the Theologian explained it thus: "It is not that the Lord was made sin or a curse for us, not that the Lord was transformed into either of these, for how could that be? But because by taking them upon Him He took away our sins and bore our iniquities." He did not die as a punishment for our sins, but inorder to deceive the devil who held men in bondage under death by sin. The Curse of the Cross deceives the Devil, death, the Jews, and the Greeks (the philosophers). It continues to deceive Jews and Greeks today, only the Devil, his minions and death are afraid of the Cross. For the Cross was the weapon of mass destruction against the kingdom of that evil one.

Yes, Christ is our ransom. For we know that "God so loved the world, that He gave His Only-begotten Son..." And as the Lord said in Isaiah: "For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy one of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee." But we know that the price of our salvation was paid with a ransom more precious than gold or silver, yes, even the price of our Redeemers own blood. It was not a ransom paid to remove God's anger, but to release us from the captivity of the Devil and death.

Yes, God's love for mankind is shown forth through the Cross, but not because it resolves God's eternal existential question on how to reconcile his pardoning mercy with His unpardonable anger. In preperation for Pascha we read Acts 26:18: "...in order to turn them about from darkness to light and (from) the power of Satan to God..."

The Gospel of Christ is His Crucifixion by which He defeated death. The Cross was viewed as a Curse to Jew and Roman alike, yet for our Lord, His Apostles, and the Church, the Cross is "the power of God to salvation to everyone who believeth, both to Jew first and also to the Greek." The wood of the Cross has become a part of the Incarnation of mankind and of thus the reconciliation of all things unto God.

Also: the fear of death enters into Man's experience when Adam sinned. Adam hid himself from God, because he was afraid. Afraid of God, no doubt, but this fear did not come from God, but from within Adam because of his sin. God does not threaten Adam with death as a punishment, but warns Adam of sin's power which is death.

Rom 3:9 tells us that "all are under sin," but how is that established? In that all died (die), from Adam until now, for as the Apostle explains: "sin reigned in death."

Also, the Apostle clearly expounds that the "death which He (Christ) died, He died to sin once for all." St. John Chrysostom also notes on this passage that death had No power over Christ, "What does 'He died to sin' mean? That is to say, He was not liable to give account to that (ed. that is to sin), but for our sin (ed. by which we were held in bondage to death), in order that He might destroy it and cut out its nerves and sinews and all its power, for this He died..." Christ died to sever from us the power of sin which held us bound to death.

This is the Orthodox Gospel which releases men from sin and death. This is the good news of our salvation which shows God's love for mankind. For He sends His Only-Begotten Son to seek and save all who believe and obey His Gospel.

Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and to those in the tombs granting life.

john

[Owen Jones]

But John,

In your very fine homily you have stated what is for me, the obvious. I'm not sure you addressed my question, which perhaps was poorly stated or unstated. Orthodox people criticize the idea of substitutionary atonement. I equate this with a ransom being paid to Satan in order to free us from his captivity over us. Is that what substitutionary atonement is? If so, then it is surely Biblical. Right? I understand that the import is different for Orthodox. It may be vastly different. I said this already in my post. I said that many protestants simply stop there and call that salvation. But I don't understand the basis on which some Orthodox deny forensic atonement theory altogether. Can you explain that? They seem to insist that Mark 10:45 doesn't exist at all, just as Luther wished to eliminate James from the NT. It's clear that many people believed in the concept of a moral debt that had to be paid in order for us to be saved. This is a strong Jewish tradition. Is there something wrong with this? IF so, what?

[Richard Leigh]

Hi All,

First I'd like to say to John Curtiss Dunn that though my church (the Lutheran Chrcuh) is steeped
in the "Substitutianary Theory" of the Atonement, I have never heard that Christ's resurrection was therefor a reward for his sinlessness.

Then I'd like to remind us all that there have been many "theories" (in the western sense of the term)of the atonement, and add that what keeps them in the realm of "pure" theory is that none of them fully encompass all the facts of the case, as much as they may attempt to.

Next I'd like to point out that what drives Orthodoxy in its rejection of any idea of "Substitution" is the (very good) Hellenistic
idea of the impassability of God. IOW God is above passion and is therefore never angry (and his love is not passionate, i.e., not something in which is is a passive participant overcome in, but rather something in which he is impassionately active --- in his energies I would guess). The point being that God is not angry at sin or sinners, or even the Devil. All scripture that would seem to contradict this are interpreted as figure of speech: anthropomorphism of God. OTOH, Luther would say that someone is trying to "let God off the hook" (not a Luther quote, but a professor quote)

John also asked what I meant by "apparent divisions" -- I meant that the divisions in the church, West from East, Modern from Ancient etc. that are more apparent to the eye than real to God. And, can the church really "divide"? Is it not rather the case that the church IS those who are one with God (and therefor [and only therefor] with each other) as Jesus is one with him?

Richard Leigh

[John Curtis Dunn]

Owen Jones wrote: "Is that what
substitutionary atonement is?"
----

The Western teaching of the substitutionary atonement centers upon a penal substitution as a payment of death to God for sin. Death is a payment made to God. This is the most crucial and central part of the work of Christ and the primary purpose for the Incarnation in this teaching.

As Orthodox we do not deny that Christ is our substitution, and thus, that He, by His life death, Resurrection and Ascension does so on our behalf or in substitution. What is now being questioned is: "Was Christ's death a substitutionary payment of death, payed to His Father in lieu of our debt of death owed to God as a payment to satisfy His anger against man for his sin(s)?"

To the above question the following anti-question must also be answered: "Where the sacrifices of lambs as well as: goats, doves, bullocks, grain, fruit; offered up as deaths in substitution for the death of the offerer, or in substitution of Christ who had not yet come?"

It is evident that to offer a defiled sacrifice and even *strange incense* incured the wrath of God and death, but why? When Moses struck the Rock a second time, what was the offense? I ask this because this act of Moses kept him from entering the Promised Land as Leader of the Israelites. (However, Moses is seen to have entered into the Promised Land at the Transfiguration). Also, if the High Priest was defiled when he entered into the Holy of Holies he would die, but why?

Where or when does Christ depict His Father as wrathful towards man? Is it not directed towards those who refuse to accept His gracious mercy?

The Apostle Paul boldly wrote of Christ: "Who gave Himself a ransom for all..."

The teaching of the Penal Substitutionary Atonement is the foundation of the endless arguments within Protestantism concerning "Limited versus Unlimited Atonement." For whom did Christ die? For all men excluding no one, or for all men excluding those for whom God Predestined to remain subject to death as justification for His anger and payment of death to Him for their sins?"

Can the above questions be answered within the Orthodox teaching of Christ's substitutionary death? Certainly as Orthodox we can answer, "For whom did Christ die?" However, even if our answer appears to aggree with that system identified as Arminianism (after Joseph Arminius), it would be a mistake to therefore assume that we Orthodox are saying the same thing.

All men shall be resurrected, and that is the direct result of the Death of Christ and His conquering of death. (To those in the tombs He granted life) This is good news, for all who obey the Gospel. However, for those who will not believe and obey not the truth of the Gospel, this Resurrection will result in their being cast both body and soul into Hell.

The Penal substitutionary payment to God teaching leaves us asking, "If Christ died as a payment to God for our sins, how can God later then punish us with death without denying the substitutionary value of His Son's death? Other delemnia's also appear, such as "What about those who never heard the Gospel, are they punished simply because they were born in a place where Christ's Penal payment had yet to be preached?"

The many subsequent questions arising from out of the Penal Substitutionary Atonement teaching have certainly all found some kind of answer to satisfy the respective adhearent to said teaching, but the argument continues to be waged within concerning the extant or to whom does Christ's death apply as a substitution.

You seem to suggest that I demur in my answer concerning Mark 10:45, but I would reply you have read this passage to mean something it does not say.

You must prove that the word *ransom* means any kind of penal payment and that the context of the word and passage means that such is being paid to God. Until you can produce the evidence for these meaning your argument: "They seem to insist that Mark 10:45 doesn't exist at all," is simply an assertion, which I find tenuous.

"But we see Jesus, Who for a short time was made less than the angels *on account of the suffering of death,* crowned with glory and honor, *so that He, by the grace of God, should taste death for everyone.*" Hebrews 2:9

john

[John Curtis Dunn]

Richard wrote:"...my church (the Lutheran Chrcuh) is steeped in the "Substitutianary Theory" of the Atonement, I have never heard that Christ's resurrection was therefor a reward for his sinlessness."

OH!

Augustine says (Tract. civ in Joan.), "the glory of the Resurrection is the reward of the humility of the Passion."

What was that humilty according to the Penal Substitutionary teaching? Is it not that Christ was punished for our sins?

Martin Luther commented as follows on Galations 3:13

"Paul does not say that Christ was made a curse for Himself. The accent is on the two words "for us." Christ is personally innocent. Personally, He did not deserve to be hanged for any crime of His own doing. But because Christ took the place of others who were sinners, He was hanged like any other transgressor. The Law of Moses leaves no loopholes. It says that a transgressor should be hanged. Who are the other sinners? We are. The sentence of death and everlasting damnation had long been pronounced over us. But Christ took all our sins and died for them on the Cross. "He was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12.)

All the prophets of old said that Christ should be the greatest transgressor, murderer, adulterer, thief, blasphemer that ever was or ever could be on earth. When He took the sins of the whole world upon Himself, Christ was no longer an innocent person. He was a sinner burdened with the sins of a Paul who was a blasphemer; burdened with the sins of a Peter who denied Christ; burdened with the sins of a David who committed adultery and murder, and gave the heathen occasion to laugh at the Lord. In short, Christ was charged with the sins of all men, that He should pay for them with His own blood. The curse struck Him. The Law found Him among sinners. He was not only in the company of sinners. He had gone so far as to invest Himself with the flesh and blood of sinners. So the Law judged and hanged Him for a sinner.

In separating Christ from us sinners and holding Him up as a holy exemplar, errorists rob us of our best comfort. They misrepresent Him as a threatening tyrant who is ready to slaughter us at the slightest provocation.

I am told that it is preposterous and wicked to call the Son of God a cursed sinner. I answer: If you deny that He is a condemned sinner, you are forced to deny that Christ died. It is not less preposterous to say, the Son of God died, than to say, the Son of God was a sinner.

John the Baptist called Him "the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Being the unspotted Lamb of God, Christ was personally innocent. But because He took the sins of the world His sinlessness was defiled with the sinfulness of the world. Whatever sins I, you, all of us have committed or shall commit, they are Christ's sins as if He had committed them Himself. Our sins have to be Christ's sins or we shall perish forever.

Isaiah declares of Christ: "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." We have no right to minimize the force of this declaration. God does not amuse Himself with words. What a relief for a Christian to know that Christ is covered all over with my sins, your sins, and the sins of the whole world.

The papists invented their own doctrine of faith. They say charity creates and adorns their faith. By stripping Christ of our sins, by making Him sinless, they cast our sins back at us, and make Christ absolutely worthless to us. What sort of charity is this? If that is a sample of their vaunted charity we want none of it.

Our merciful Father in heaven saw how the Law oppressed us and how impossible it was for us to get out from under the curse of the Law. He therefore sent His only Son into the world and said to Him: "You are now Peter, the liar; Paul, the persecutor; David, the adulterer; Adam, the disobedient; the thief on the cross. You, My Son, must pay the world's iniquity." The Law growls: "All right. If Your Son is taking the sin of the world, I see no sins anywhere else but in Him. He shall die on the Cross." And the Law kills Christ. But we go free.

The argument of the Apostle against the righteousness of the Law is impregnable. If Christ bears our sins, we do not bear them. But if Christ is innocent of our sins and does not bear them, we must bear them, and we shall die in our sins. "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Let us see how Christ was able to gain the victory over our enemies. The sins of the whole world, past, present, and future, fastened themselves upon Christ and condemned Him. But because Christ is God He had an everlasting and unconquerable righteousness. These two, the sin of the world and the righteousness of God, met in a death struggle. Furiously the sin of the world assailed the righteousness of God. Righteousness is immortal and invincible. On the other hand, sin is a mighty tyrant who subdues all men. This tyrant pounces on Christ. But Christ's righteousness is unconquerable. The result is inevitable. Sin is defeated and righteousness triumphs and reigns forever.

In the same manner was death defeated. Death is emperor of the world. He strikes down kings, princes, all men. He has an idea to destroy all life. But Christ has immortal life, and life immortal gained the victory over death. Through Christ death has lost her sting. Christ is the Death of death.
---
I will concede that Martin Luther does not use the word reward to define Christ's trial in this passage:

"Furiously the sin of the world assailed the righteousness of God. Righteousness is immortal and invincible. On the other hand, sin is a mighty tyrant who subdues all men. This tyrant pounces on Christ. But Christ's righteousness is unconquerable. The result is inevitable. Sin is defeated and righteousness triumphs and reigns forever."

But I believe the thought is expressed.

john

[Richard Leigh]

Thanks, John,

for the extended Lutherquote.

What did they teach me in that school?

Yes, Luther was very concrete in his expression, and understanding of Christ's taking of our sins.
Not sinfulness, mind you, but our sins.

And we do speak in R. Catholic terms of rewards and punishments, but limit them to Christ (no one else, not even ourselves) for us, when (that is, if) we believe.

In the church though I was never taught a great deal about any particular "Lutheran" meaning or interpretation of the resurrection; like the Papists our focus was more on the Death (hence our past) than the Resurrection (which leads to Pentacost, the Ascension, and coming Session, our future). The Resurrection was necessitated by the simple fact that as God, Jesus cannot remain, even if he can ever be, dead. Our attempt is to "believe" what scripture says about it.

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

The fear of death

I don’t know how to discuss this subject theoretically because I don’t know enough to be able to do so. I’ve read all the messages very carefully though (up to Owen's message no. 407) and I’d like to make a couple of comments; always, always based on my own experience or on what I have read so please forgive any naivety on my part.

John Dunn wrote : “ When the above is heard, learned and believed, it captivates the essence of being a person created in the image of God and motivates him/her to seek God who is most beautiful and who has made himself known in the beauty of His holiness. That holiness is in all things which God has created, but it resides quintessentially in each individual person who is the macrocosmic Creation of God's Love.”

I can relate to this statement because ever since I can remember I have had an aversion to anything that is hurtful to others. This “feeling” – I hesitate to call it holiness because this seems too perfect a word for anything associated with me, is apparently an inherent part of ourselves and when we sin we go against that of God in us. I sometimes think of our souls as perfect when we are born and when they are still somehow connected to God, but then as we live our lives our stupid little sins tear at them until they are torn, soiled and bloody. And it is these pitiful souls that we present to God at the time of our deaths. A bit fanciful I admit but I tend to simplify things as much as I can in order to understand them more clearly.

Richard Leigh wrote : “for the purpose of communion with him that we cannot have without his intervention, will not even commence without his igniting it.”

Does God select us? This is what the Orthodox believe from what I have read. But cannot he use different methods to approach us? For example : a health crisis, for many people, is an opportunity to realize what is important in life and what isn’t. And for many such a crisis gives us the opportunity to seek what, up to then, we hadn’t sought – God. This was not my own experience but I know that it is a common occurrence.

Owen Jones wrote : “ Let's not forget that the modern focus on "fear of death" is a theory propounded by Freud as the foundation of all religion. He believed that religion was a historical phenomenon that developed out of the human need to compensate for the fear of death. Also, he saw religion is a social control mechanism used to repress our instinctual desires, which he saw as necessary for the formation and development of civilization. So he was not hostile to religion (for the masses); he saw it as a necessary illusion.”

Owen, I’m not an admirer of Freud but I think he was expressing what a lot of people believe. His theory however doesn’t explain our knowledge of what is right and wrong, knowledge that is an integral part of us. This knowledge is not something that we have consciously decided on, it is something that we are born with. And it is something that even young children have, long before they are able to fear death.

The following is by Father Michael Azkoul - St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO
St. Nectarios American Orthodox Church
“…. Following the Holy Fathers, Orthodoxy teaches that the knowledge of God is planted in human nature and that is how we know Him to exist. Otherwise, unless God speaks to us, human reason cannot know more. The saving knowledge of God comes by the Savior. Speaking to His Father, He said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou has sent" (John 17: 3).
The Nature of Man
Human nature was created good, even in communion with the blessed Trinity which made "him." Male and female were created "in the likeness and image of God" (Gen. 1:26): "likeness" in virtue; "image" meaning to rule the earth rationally, to act wisely and freely. The woman was made as a "help-meet" to the man (Gen. 2:18; I Cor. 11:8-9). They were to live together in harmony and mutual respect.
Following the Holy Fathers, the Orthodox Church holds that when Adam sinned against God, he introduced death to the world. Since all men are born of the same human stock as Adam, all men inherit death. Death means that the life of every human being comes to an end (mortality); but also that death generates in us the passions (anger, hate, lust, greed, etc.), disease and aging.
Roman Catholicism has ordinarily paid little attention to the Orthodox conception of man as slave to death through his passions as manipulated by the devil. In fact, the devil has been pushed to the background. Thus, the Crucifixion has been understood by the Latins as Christ suffering punishment for the human race ("vicarious atonement"), when, in truth, Christ suffered and died on the Cross to conquer the devil and destroy his power, death.
In any case, Orthodoxy has always put great stress on "mastery of the passions" through prayer (public worship and private devotions), fasting (self-denial) and voluntary obedience and regular participation in the Eucharist (sometimes called "the Mysteries"). Thus, the highest form of Christian living ("the supreme philosophy") is monasticism. Here all human energy is devoted to struggle for perfection. …”

The following excerpts are from the Greek Orthodox Site and are relevant to some of the points mentioned previously :
“…Some believe that religion began in fear or wonder, as suggested by the Roman poet Lucretius and later by the philosophers Hobbes and Hume. Nevertheless it does not exist only in primitive cultures a fact that refutes the frequently made claim that as soon as the primitive cultures disappear religion also disappears. And religion is expressed in a variety of ways, not simply in fear, but through “the feelings, the acts, the thoughts, and experiences of men,” as the American psychologist William James observes….”

“…Most human beings instinctively know what is right and what is wrong. Whether “civilized” or “primitive” every human being wrestles with questions pertaining to the origin and meaning of existence, the ultimate destiny and purpose of life all questions religious in nature….”

“…..And the Creator is both an inner presence and a cosmic reality, endocosmic and exocosmic. Because of this, Greek Orthodox Christianity possesses a sense of the sacredness of the whole cosmos.
Thus the source of truth is one but it is conveyed through two channels, one is known as physical, or natural, and the other as metaphysical, or supernatural; one can become partially known through a personal quest and effort and the other is given as a gift, gratis. God is the giver and the human being is the receiver. Divinity and humanity have been in constant interaction. The divinity is “present in all places and filling all things;” (pantahou paron kai to panta pleron) and humanity “lives, moves, and has its existence” (en auto zomen kai kinoumentha kai esmen) in the Divinity as the ancient Greek philosophers and Poets Epemenides and Aratos put it and Paul of Tarsus reemphasized (Acts 17.28).
Furthermore man’s capacity to reason, his inward sense of non-material origins, the faculties which distinguish humanity from the plant and animal world are considered sparks or rays of the Divinity and manifestations of “natural” revelation. Because of the commonality between Divinity and Humanity (God and Man), man reaches out for God and when the reach becomes unattainable, God reaches out for man. This is the background of the Greek Orthodox belief that there is a natural and a supernatural revelation of truth….”

What beautiful words “…man reaches out for God and when the reach becomes unattainable, God reaches out for man.”

Effie

[John Kapetan]

[Dear list: My first reply/post. Please forgive me if I did it wrong. I also am not a backer of Freud, although, have any of the members questioned his 'foundation of religion as the fear of death.maybe relating to man's search for God as a consequence of his fall. In other words, from his turning away from God - thinking he could be, or was thinking he was in fact God- the reason that God imposed the sentence of death in the first place? ]

[elizabeth randell]

There is an excellent book which addresses the three major types of the idea of the atonement called "Christus Victor" by Gustaf Aulen. Reading it was, in fact, the beginning of my journey to Orthodox Christianity, as it clearly shows a dramatic shift in the classical or patristic view which is physical victory over death and sin (Christus Victor), to the Anselmian "objective" view which focuses on the forgiveness of the (inherited) guilt of sin and makes God the object of Christ's atoning work, God being reconciled through the satisfaction of His justice. I had to ask myself some very hard questions as to how such a major change could take place and still be the same church.

I have also read that there were some translation difficulties from Greek to Latin in the New Testament which contributed to the Latin view, especially of the word "justified" which was translated as a Latin word used to indicate a legal status or position before a magistrate instead of the original Greek understanding of the word as something similar to "justifying" margins in a document. In other words, Christ is our justification, the One who straightens us (in the process of theosis), not our justification as vicarious sacrifice (in salvation as a legal position.) There is a paradigm shift between the two views that is crucial to understanding the differences between the Western and Eastern understanding of the nature of God, man, and salvation. ( This has become a topic of great interest for me, along with the created/uncreated light/grace differences between the East and West and how those beliefs have shaped different practices especially in the area of art. I am only beginning to get any kind of a handle on it, so forgive my puerile attempts at discussing something far too wonderful for me to understand. Perhaps others can illucidate on these topics.)

An interesting side note is that Aulen seems to feel that Luther was actually more attuned to the classical view, but that his followers reverted to the Latin view.

[elizabeth randell]

John, I think that the Orthodox view of death coming into the world is that it was not a punishment from God but a natural consequence of sin. In other words, death is the absence of life as evil is the absence of good and darkness is the absence of light. I have also read somewhere that allowing death was God's mercy to stop the proliferation and progression of sin.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Elizabeth,

Yes, Aulen, a Swedish Lutheran Bishop did think Luther was closer to what Aulen called the "classic" view. I don't know how many American Scholars are convinced by him, my historical theological professor in Chicago was not.

A good Lutherancritique of Aulen's book is in John Warwick Montgomery's Chytreus on Sacrifice

I'll discuss it later.

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard, Christos Voskrese!

Thank you for you most kind words. Let me share something with you...when I was a boy growing up in Portland, Oregon, we lived in a beautiful home over looking a lovely city park, which had many flowers, shrubs, a large pond, and which was quiet and pleasant to walk around.

In the Spring, the park comes alive with many kinds of azaleas and rhododendrons, also magnolia trees. The fragrance is almost overwhelming. On the occasion of my 15th birthday, I went by myself for a walk, for I have spent the better part of my life -first being lonely, and now, being alone. I stopped at a water fountain to get a drink, and when I lifted up my head, I was suddenly aware of looking up into an incredible light, and I wassfilled with inexpressable joy and happiness. My young heart and soul were so filled with that light and feelong of God's love, that I again looked up to Heaven, made the sign of the cross, and told God, that if Heaven might be anything like I had just seen and now felt, would he please, please take me to Him at that moment. All too soon, that inexpressable joy left me, and little did I know all the terrible sins I would commit, the loneliness that was to come, and the heavy burden of unhappiness brought on by my own lack of love for God and my neighbor. So many plans and dreams, so many good opportunities were to be lost, epecially in my monastic life,. I have been a spiritual under-achiever almost all of my life, but now I feel safe in my life -safe from myself, for I am truly blessed with a spiritual father who loves me and guides me, gently pointing the Direction in which I must go.

This Pascha has been the best in my life -several times when sharing my thoughts with all of you, I have done so while weeping, Thinking about how fortunate I am to have all of you in my life brings me more joy and comfort than you can imagine. Many kind people have sent me touching and loving private messages, assuring me of their prayers. God has showered me with an abundance of blessings, which in their own way are little bits of heaven -like sunlight sparkling and dancing on the surface of water.


Mayber it was a dream, Richard, but I believe not-you know, I have not really thought about it until today, and your message was the key that opened the tiny door in my heart, revealing this marvelous memory.

All of you are those bits of the Sun to me, bringing light and happiness into my life. I do not fear death, Richard, my soul longs for my Saviour. I often think of death and dying now, but perhaps it will be God's holy will to keep me here until great old age -whatever He wishes. But when that time comes, may I have the thought and words in my heart and mind, "Now let your servant depart in peace, O Master..." And , I pray, that by God's mercy, I will walk into the Light

Thank you, and God bless you, Richard.

Much love in the Risen Christ,

Hieromonk Averky

[M.C. Steenberg]

I think that the Orthodox view of death coming into the world is that it was not a punishment from God but a natural consequence of sin.

Since we've been discussing St Irenaeus in another thread, a point from him here as well:

For Irenaeus, death is actually a gift given by God to man in the fact of the latter's sin. Should sin go on unabounded to eternity, and should humankind be immortal in its iniquity, then what hope is there for the repentance that leads to life? So, for Irenaeus, God gave death to man, presented him with a limited lifespan, so that the approach of the end might prompt in his heart the change of life that he requires.

INXC, Matthew

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Elisabeth,

As promised:

This is perhaps more than you wanted to know, but I thought it would be valuable to the whole list which has now read your allusion to Bp. Aulen's work, to get a gist of "the rest of the story" on it, as presented by another Lutheran theologian.

So, paraphrasing J. W. Montgomery (hot in conservative Lutheran circles!), Aulen contrasts three views of the atonement, what he calls the "classic" theory, to which he assigns the Fathers and Luther (to the rest of our surprise!), the "Latin doctrine", assigned to Anselm and Lutheran Orthodoxy (in a minute), and finally the "subjective view," to which he assigns Abelard, Schleiermacher, and Ritsch. Lutheran Orthodoxy is what we call the direction Lutheranism took after the death of both of its original leaders, Luther and Melanchthon, and after the final formulation and "canonization" of the confessions under which we are agreed to agree with the God of Scripture (don't ask). We took up the mantle of scholasticism that we had cast off at the original outbread of the reformation. Pieism grew up later as a reaction against this rather cold and clinical expression of the faith. But I digress.

Aulen discusses four areas addressed by ideas of the Atonement: (1) Whether God's operation was continuous or not, meaning whether or not the first two persons of the Trinity were with, or against one another (more later), (2) whether merit and justice were continuous or not, i.e., one was against the other or not, (3) whether the conception of forces of good and evil are dualistic or monistic, and (4) whether or not the tension between divergence of scripture pertaining to the subject is maintained or one or another of them is explained away.

This is how Aulen says they stack up, according to Montgomery:

In the Classic theory there is, (1) continuity in the operation of God: God planned the atonement, God in Christ carried it out, this was an approach of God to Man, the incarnation and atonement are closely related, and atonement, justification, sanctification are seen as different aspects of virtually the same thing. You will notice that Aulen is using "Lutheran" terminology, you will apparently not see anything of "deification." (2) With regard to justice and merit, merit goes to the side of love, thus trumping justice with grace, (3) with regard to the spiritual powers: this theory is dualistic, and the ransom is paid to the devil, freeing the sinner from the power of sin and death as well, and the emphasis is poitive and triumphal. (4) With regard to the tensions between apparently contradictory scriptures, this view maintains them realizing that God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and his ways are above ours, so that we may not be able to understand everything, but can be sure of his ultimate victory for us whatever else is also true.

Later, Montgomery himself will test the truth of these and other assertions in a truly Lutheran fashion: as compared with scripture.

TO BE CONTINUED ----

Richard

[Richard McBride]

CHRISTOS ANESTI
dear Father Averky;

Yes, at one time I knew your home town fairly well. At about the time of your Theosis at the fountain, I was living on Germantown Road with my wife and our new son. Even then the Theotokos was watching over me, edging us toward the one, true and Apostolic Church. But it was a long "edging"; it would be almost another three decades.

I remember you speaking of painting water colours in Oregon. For a short time I tried water colours, but that Western third of the State was so extraordinarily beautiful, it made all my work seem sick. I couldn't improve on that scenery, so I waited for less fortunate places to roll by.

But after the typhoon in the Winter of 61, and the earth quake in 62, we left Portland and went East into the country not far from where you are now. We went to Ithaca for graduate school, where my second son was born -- both boys were university babies. There we learned what the word 'winter' really means.

Our house on Germantown Road was of modern design, with a cantilevered porch overlooking the Willamette River. It was all quite picturesque, until those 80 foot tall fir trees (our house was the last private property, bordering on the state park) began exploding, as 250 mile/hr typhoon winds bent them like pretzels. You should have seen the trees flung this way and that, staked on both sides of our house. Piles of trees on the left, and piles on the right. But not one of those huge trees fell upon our little modern flat roof. We were, even then, under the protection of the Theotokos -- but I was too hard of heart to know that.

I will see if I cannot put a few of those Willamette River slides on my monochos personal ref. page.

ALITHOS ANESTI
richard mcb

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard Christ is Risen!

Small world! The home of which I speak overlooked Laurelhurst Park , which is not far from the Hollywood District. How I love Oregon - the beautiful forests, lakes, streams, and rivers. We had a summer cottage at Canon Beach and another home in Lake Oswego. The happiest memories of my young life are in that city. I attended the one Greek Orthodox church at the time, and the priest was Fr. George Macris. I graduated from Central Catholic High School, which at that time was an all-boy school. Recently , members of my class have started to contact me -we are getting older and are becoming nostalgic.

During Summer, I used to love to go to the Shrine of Our Sorrowful Mother, it is so quiet and peaceful. Yesterday set off a flood of memories, and as I look back, there were more good ones than I thought...or I am finally mature enough to appreciate them?

I will contact you personally when I return -would like to learn of your journey at the time. amazing is it not, that after 40 years, my mind and heart are being filled with wonderful memories. Thank you Richard!

Fr. Averky

[Richard McBride]

CHRISTOS ANESTI

O Lord Jesus Christ our God, the true and living way, be thou, O Master, Father Averky's companion and guide and guardian during his journey; deliver and protect him from all danger, misfortune and temptation; that being so defended by Thy divine power, he may have a peaceful and successful journey and arrive safely at his destination.
For to thee, together with thy Eternl Father and Thy All-holy Spirit, we ascribe all honour, praise and glory: now and ever and unto ages of ages.
Amen.

ALITHOS ANESTI