Suffering, hope and prayer

[erich von abele]

I've always been interested in the balance that the Christian must maintain between

1) hoping with joy in one's heart that the pains of life will be lifted through prayer by the grace of God

2) accepting pains of life (ranging from manageable pains to tragic, horrible pains) that in fact never are lifted in this life for some people.

It seems to me that a Christian catechism that over-emphasizes #1 while ignoring or even denying the reality of #2 does a disservice to those who are in the grips of #2.

Such a catechism also sets up the person in the grips of #2 to an extraordinary psychic dissonance when even after praying for years and years their suffering is not lifted, although they are repeatedly counselled that prayers will alleviate their sufferings. One logical answer to this is that the prayers of a #2 sufferer are not as pure as the prayers of a #1 sufferer (whose suffering is lifted soon, or at least in this life).

The question becomes, is it logical, and is it even compassionate and loving to so blatantly infer of a #2 sufferer that, by mere virtue of the fact that their sufferings have not been lifted for 50 years, or all their wretched life, that ipso facto their prayers were sufficiently impure as to be inefficacious (for surely God would not be inflicting a long life of terrible suffering on a good and pious person while they and good people around them prayed for them)?

[Owen Jones]

I think our spiritual traditions handle this quite well. It's largely a Western problem, RC and Protestant. In Orthodoxy, suffering is seen largely as an opportunity for us to become like Christ. Whereas in the WEst, suffering has to have a kind of quid pro quo aspect to it. Of course, the story of the man born blind shows that suffering should not be seen simplistically or literally (a la the Pharisees), as a punishment for sin. i.e. who sinned, the man or his parents, that he was born blind. In fact, this is the essence of Phariseeism, turning religion into a curse rather than a blessing.

Most Protestants and RC's I have known are deeply troubled when they suffer since it defies their theological logic.

And of course American society is organized around the principle that all suffering is evil. So you have one of two alternatives -- either God is evil. Or God has nothing to do with it.

See George Bush on this: There is no problem Americans can't solve.

So we should pray to ask God to relieve us of this burden, yet, at the same time, we pray for his will for us, and if it is for us to suffer, then the spiritual grace to suffer without bitterness, and to allow us to become more compassionate toward others. If you have never suffered, it's hard if not impossible to have compassion toward others who are suffering. I think this is the true meaning of unity of faith, and not outward similarities of observances. A Faith in which there are no inner contradictions.

The same way one can look at Scripture. Either it contradicts itself all the time, or there is an inner unity. That inner unity is, more often than not, appreciated only when we suffer. Yet we see the evidence of His miraculous healing all the time. That is for a higher purpose we cannot understand. It doesn't necessarily signal that he is favoring the ones He has healed. He may have greater works and miracles in mind for the persons who continue to suffer.

[Owen Jones]

I would add to the above, ERich, quite cynically I suppose some would say, that I have never heard a sermon on this topic that I found to be compelling. Yet it is the very essence of our faith. The pastor's job these days is to get people to come to Church. I'm not convinced they know what to do with them once they're there.

[Owen Jones]

I once asked an extremely intelligent, scholarly Christian the following question: if you saw a drug addict lying dirty and half clothed on the sidwalk, what would be your first thought? He said the following: he's not living the way he is supposed to live. Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. That's a modern, middle class morality version of the situation.

[sinjin smithe]

I agree with what you said Owen about suffering and how it is viewed in America. Many Protestants do not have a context for suffering like the Orthodox do, which brings up such ideas that God is favoring others while he does not favor others.


I once asked an extremely intelligent, scholarly Christian the following question: if you saw a drug addict lying dirty and half clothed on the sidwalk, what would be your first thought? He said the following: he's not living the way he is supposed to live. Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. That's a modern, middle class morality version of the situation.

Are you knocking middle class morality here? What is wrong with that? To me, middle class morality is a lot better compared to Hollywood and Clinton-type morality? Please forgive me if I misunderstood something here.

[Owen Jones]

I forgive you.

[Moses Anthony]

Middle-class morality, if it 's a sham of the real deal, at least appears to be an attempt to hold onto, or recapture what is known to be lacking admist a fear and rejection of what is so prevalent.
While I understand your resonse to the learned man statement, there's truth in what he said. What is Christianity if it's not living as we're supposed to live, a redemption for our original purpose!
Your question seems to set up a "good Samaritan" type situation.

tus

[A Sinner]

Forgive me if I put words into your mouth, Sinjin, but the point is not to knock "middle class morality" (to quote a certain dustman by the name of Doolittle). The point is that if my first thought of the drug addict is judgment, I make my lack of compassion quite evident. And it is love, and not merely following the "rules," which will save me. Forgive me.

[Moses Anthony]

There are three women whom I know personally, two were healed of cervical cancer(the second one was anointed with the oil which came from a weeping icon). The other lady - whom I've known longer, and whose family are close friends- has been in a wheelchair the majority of her life. The only one of these women that I've prayed for to be healed, is the one anointed with the oil from the icon, and that was only when The Supplicatory Canon to The Theotokos was said in my living room.

I think that the majority of those who have no theology of suffering, are mainly found within the ranks of 'Charismatic Protestants', while there are those who see their 'ordeal' more along the lines of the Apostle Paul, and his thorn in the flesh. Among that second group is the family personal friend, who among other things, was a hospital chaplain for several years.

Sometimes rather flipantly, I will tell someone who says they're hurting, "pain is good, it lets us know we're alive". The exception to the rule which applies in all painful situations, is , The grace of God is sufficient. Therefore being alive, in pain and in the grace of God at the same moment, the pain is irrevalent, even though my physical mobility is hampered; ie, Paul's statement, "...when I'm weak, then I am strong". But then, I'm sure you all know this.

the unworthy servant

[Chad Duskin]

Erich,
You bring up an interesting topic. My father strugled with this after he had talked to some Charismatic Protestants on the subjest then read the book of Job. He had a hard time reconciling the two. If the story of Job shows us anything it is that ultimately pain and suffering bring glory to God for those that love Him. I had heard someone describe it using scientific terms. All living things have carbon in common. We are cabon based life forms. Under intense heat and pressure carbon is either weakened and crushed or is strengthened and eventually becomes a hard diamond. The only difference is whether or not there were any impurities in the carbon during the process. I think it is a good metaphor for the Christian life. Keeping myself pure will allow the pressures and pains of life to make me stronger. Impurities will cause me to crumble under the same circumstances. Two people can be put in the same circumstance and each will have a different reaction. God will never put us through more than He knows we are able to endure. What we put ourselves through is an entirely different matter.

Chad

[Confused]

But when is suffering "good suffering" that makes us holy... and when is it demonic suffering that makes us despair? How do we know to keep the two apart?

[sinjin smithe]

Both Chad and confused brought up an interesting question. How can we tell if it is good suffering or demonic suffering? Or suffering that we bring onto ourselves like what Chad was raising when he said, "What we put ourselves through is an entirely different matter?"

[Rebecca]

Link to St Macarius the Great's comments on affliction:

http://www.roca.org/OA/118/118c.htm

[Moses Anthony]

Suffering is like a pencil/keyboard, in and of itself it holds no intrinsic evil or good. It is what is produced by the one who weilds it, and how we respond, which determines sufferings value!

If for some reason we suffer an injustice, and bear it patiently, not railing against our oppressor, it is good. If perchance I fall to temptation or sin blatantly, but upon conviction confess and repent humbly, again, it is good. In the example of Job, he was afflicted and tormented by the devil; however, God was angry with the three friends,"...because you have not spoken of me what is right as my servant Job has".

Suffering happens to both good people and bad people, "in the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer I have overcome the world", "...these things I have spoken to you that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full".

Confused, I believe answered his own question, in that "suffering...make us holy, and suffering that makes us despair", happens if, or when, our eyes are focused on the author and perfector of our faith. As it was said in the civil rights struggle, "Keep your eyes on the prize".

the unworthy servant

[John Curtis Dunn]

"Keep your eyes on the prize".

The relevant passage being: "Therefore we also, having so great a cloud of witnesses which is set around us, and having laid aside every weight and sin that is easily circumvented, let us by means of patience be running the course which is set before us, looking to Jesus, the originator (author) and accomplisher (finisher)of our faith, Who, in exchange for the joy set before Him, endured a cross, having despised the shame, and hath sat down on the right (hand) of the throne of God. For consider the One who hath endured contradiction by sinners against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your souls." Hebrews 12 1-3

John {http://hometown.aol.com/goldenoniondome/myhomepage/business.html , Heaven's Cupola

[John Wehling]

“Do not therefore be cast down. For there is only one thing, Olympias, which is really terrible, only one real trial, and that is sin; and I have never ceased continually harping upon this theme; but as for all other things, plots, enmities, frauds, calumnies, insults, accusations, confiscation, exile, the keen sword of the enemy, the peril of the deep, warfare of the whole world, or anything else you like to name, they are but idle tales. For whatever the nature of these things may be they are transitory and perishable, and operate in a mortal body without doing any injury to the vigilant soul.”
--St John Chrysostom, Letter “To My Lady” (Olympias; from his exile)

“Thus in no case will any one be able to injure a man who does not choose to injure himself: but if a man is not willing to be temperate, and to aid himself from his own resources no one will ever be able to profit him....For it is not stress of circumstances, nor variation of seasons, nor insults of men in power, nor intrigues besetting thee like snow storms, nor a crowd of calamities, nor a promiscuous collection of all the ills to which mankind is subject, which can disturb even slightly the man who is brave, and temperate, and watchful; just as on the contrary the indolent and supine man who is his own betrayer cannot be made better, even with the aid of innumerable ministrations..."
--St John Chrysostom, A Treatise to Prove that No One Can Harm the Man Who Does Not Injure Himself, 12

[John Curtis Dunn]

Owen Jones wrote:


I once asked an extremely intelligent, scholarly Christian the following question: if you saw a drug addict lying dirty and half clothed on the sidwalk, what would be your first thought? He said the following: he's not living the way he is supposed to live. Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. That's a modern, middle class morality version of the situation.

Nothing!? Then why is there so much instruction between the covers in Holy Scripture on how to live, how to avoid evil circumstances caused by our foolish, ignorant, willful, choices to break the commandments of God?

There certainly are many different thoughts that could pass through several different persons. These thoughts would most likely arise out of there own personal experience and upbringing. The parable about the Good Samaritan gives four different examples, but that is probably not meant to be exhaustive of all possible thoughts. Some might say, "There, but for the Grace of God I am, and then go their way, and then others might think the same thing and embrace the opportunity to serve his fellow man.

Sometimes we can't help our thoughts. They are often colored or patterned according to the fabric of which our lives are made; however, once we have thought, it is what we do that matters. Remember the parable about the two sons? One said, "Yes I will do," and then did nothing, the other said, "NO I will not," but then repented and went and did what his father asked of him.

Perhaps the individual was of the mind , "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime." Which response offers healing to the man's situation?

John http://hometown.aol.com/goldenoniondome/myhomepage/business.html , Heaven's Cupola

[Owen Jones]

Dear John,

I would love to see the Church today embrace this wisdom from the FAthers. It would be the most important pastoral development we could possibly hope for. As an aside, it sums up the AA approach quite well. There is hardly an AA meeting in which this point is not made.

[Rebecca]

Dear Owen,

The Church today is filled with embracing this wisdom from the Fathers. To cite a few examples: Great Lent. The hymns sung at each Church service are also filled with this wisdom. Prayers read during the Church services are also filled with this wisdom. Gospel readings. Epistle readings....

[Owen Jones]

You are stating the obvious, REbecca. I'm simply talking about the ethos of the Church beyond the words of the services. The preaching, the teaching, the life by example among our church leaders and among ourselves. We have a lot to do to restore that ethos.

[Rebecca]

Owen, it was not obvious to me from your post that you were speaking about The preaching, the teaching, the life by example among our church leaders and among ourselves.

best regards...