Organ donation

[Antonios Spartan]

My fellow Christians,

I recently had to renew my driving license, and on the back there is a section regarding whether or not I would be an organ donor in the event of an accident. In the past, I have always answered 'yes' and always believed that would be the right Christian thing to do. However, on recent readings regarding the sanctity of the human body, I feel a little confused. Does anyone know the stance of the Church in this issue? I'm guessing since organ donation is new to this past century, there probably isn't much in the way of Patristic thought to this issue.

with love,
Antonios

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Antonios:

Christ is risen!

I have not heard of any official position on this by any Orthodox church. With that in mind, it is always best to speak about this with your spiritual father/parish priest or your bishop. From what I have heard, there is generally not a problem with organ donation inasmuch as if we offer these to someone else, we are generally doing it out of brotherly love.

Aaron

[Kosmas Damianides]

That is true Aaron,

The Archbishop of the Church in Greece in fact was on the news recently trying to get Orthodox People to consider donating their organs for medical purposes in the even of death.

Donating your organs for science however in different countries could mean different things. Your body organs could end up in a science lab somewhere being disected by students of Human Biology. or your brain could end up being sliced up like bacon by scientists interested in the different layers of your brain.

Be careful for what you sign for. I have read that donating to science is not allowed by the Orthodox Church. But donating to save lives is.

In Christ
Kosmas

[Antonios Spartan]

Thank you very much Aaron and Kosmas. It always made sense to me that donating organs to help another whose life will be improved, if not saved, is the right thing to do. I'm glad to hear that the Archbishop of Greece has recommended it. Thanks again.

with love,
Antonios

[Antonios]

ATHENS, July 1 (RIA Novosti, Alexei Bogdanovsky) -- The head of the Greek Orthodox Church, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece Christodolous said Friday on state television that he and the members of the Holy Synod had signed organ donor forms.

If any of them were to die suddenly, their organs could be given to patients in need of a transplant.

The church also asked clerics and parishioners to display solidarity in the cause, and forms will now be given out in churches across the country for anyone who wants to become a donor to fill in.

The Greek Orthodox Church has supported organ donation since 1999. The decision was then prompted by the death of a 12-year-old boy from Rhodes, who had waited 14 months for a heart transplant
-----

Have a blessed weekend and pray for all those who have made their voices heard today for our brothers and sisters in Africa who suffer day in and day out.


in humility and love,
Antonios

[Paul Cowan]

I am jumping into a 2 year old thread here, but...


Donating your organs for science however in different countries could mean different things. Your body organs could end up in a science lab somewhere being disected by students of Human Biology. or your brain could end up being sliced up like bacon by scientists interested in the different layers of your brain.


My priest also agrees with the idea of donating organs to save lives. My question then comes from the above.

If our doctoral students don't have organs to practise on, when will they practise? When I am on the operating table. I pray God not. I don't believe in animal cruelty, but if it is between man and beast, beast first and then man to perfect technique.

I am sure there are organ blackmarkets out there, but I am not sure there are too many Frankenstein universities teaching poor medical practices on cadavers. Yes, I am sure the occasional pancreas hits the floor from over exhausted students, but better there than on a living patient under sedation.

Or are we saying cadavers are only to be from the dead homeless & transcient non-orthodox ho-bos?

Paul

[Andrew]

I am sure there are organ blackmarkets out there, but I am not sure there are too many Frankenstein universities teaching poor medical practices on cadavers. Yes, I am sure the occasional pancreas hits the floor from over exhausted students, but better there than on a living patient under sedation.


Paul

There is a billion dollar black market for human organs... very recently some hospitals and funeral homes have come under investigation over this. Supposedly, one human body can go for about $50,000, or so I heard if I remember correctly. Anyways, this is very sick.

I do not want any of my organs taken out of my body. And if one of my organs failed, I would accept what Our Lord had given me. I don't think organ transplants usually work out too well, and most of the time it seems that the person who got the new organ ends up dying not too long afterwards (I'm not sure about this though, I'm not any expert on medical science).

I think the rush to hold onto "life" through artificial means oftentimes is a symptom of the modern fear of dealing face to face with death.

I am not judging anyone for using these techniques, though. I can understand why others would think differently on these matters.

[Andrew]

If I'm wrong about my statement of organ transplants not normally working out too well, please correct me. I honestly don't know much on this topic.

[Xenia Rose]

I also used to say "yes" to all of the options for organ donations. But, I have developed a different perspective since coming into the Orthodox Church. I think maybe giving one of my kidneys to someone is something I could still do.

But, upon my death, I do not think I want anything removed. I fear that my nonOrthodox family will not respect my wishes as it is about my not being embalmed and I simply want my dead body moved ASAP to the church for a funeral within 24 hours of my death.

I have read that sometimes to harvest organs the body is artifically kept "working" (blood moving, oxygen being put in through a resperator, etc.) for a day or so to get the organs. This is why I no longer have organ donations on my driver's license.

About the use of the body for medical students. If the medical school believes that strongly in the need for cadavars, then I think they could make an agreement that all medical students donate their body upon thier death. If I were a medical student and that was required of me to go into a field I felt God had called me to go into, I would see that as the price I had to pay.

In the meantime, yes, most cadavars are homeless or in a situation where there is no money to pay for their funerals. It is a very sad thing indeed. (This is my understanding).

About organ donations working, my limited layperson's understanding is that the success rate is drastically improving with the new medications that have been developed. I was reading about it in a woman's magazine about a woman who donated a kidney to her foster child and they were not even related and it was successful.

[Olga]

About the use of the body for medical students. If the medical school believes that strongly in the need for cadavars, then I think they could make an agreement that all medical students donate their body upon thier death. If I were a medical student and that was required of me to go into a field I felt God had called me to go into, I would see that as the price I had to pay.

In the meantime, yes, most cadavars are homeless or in a situation where there is no money to pay for their funerals. It is a very sad thing indeed. (This is my understanding).


On the contrary, Xenia, cadavers used in medical schools in Australia are all derived from donors who have stipulated clearly that they wish to donate their bodies (or organs, or other tissues) to medical science. There is no truth in the idea that the bodies of homeless people, vagrants or paupers are used in this way.

As for a "belief" that a medical school "needs" cadavers, it would be impossible to adequately train doctors, surgeons, pathologists and other health professionals (such as dentists and physiotherapists) without a thorough grounding in anatomy and histology (study of body tissues). The structure of the human body cannot be adequately studied purely from books and pictures. Dissection of cadavers, and the availability of preserved tissue and organ samples and sections are essential components of any medical or paramedical student's training. Three-dimensional medical models are useful, but inadequate when compared to the "real" thing.

[Trudy]

This has been a topic of recent thought for me because one of my Sunday school students experienced liver failure due to a very rare disease which no one knew she had. Literally overnight, she went from healthy to dying bit by bit on a daily basis. A liver was found for her and received it via transplant. Again literally within minutes of the transplant she went from sickly yellow and dying to a healthy, glowing and vital young lady of 15 y.o.

Her younger sister has recently be diagnosed with the same rare disease. However, due to the early diagnosis 3 vitamins and 1 medication take care of the problem and her liver is remaining healthy.

I have thought: "What would I do if this were my child?" "What would I do if this were me?" Those are very, very difficult answers to determine when not in the throws of stressful decision-making.

One conclusion I have come to though; I strongly doubt I would allow myself to be a heart transplant recipient. I believe the soul resides there, who I am is in residence there. God is in my heart. To remove it and put someone else's there, is to put them there. That I could not abide.

I've not a clue what the Holy Mother Church teachs. This is only my own thought.

FWIW. YMMV.

Athanasia (Trudy)

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Trudy,

Yes, God resides in the heart and we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. BUT, the heart is just another organ of the body. The "heart" we speak of is a metaphysical (did I use that word right?) that is not real to the flesh. It is real "within" us, but is not a body part.

Just as children will draw and cut out a heart shaped piece of paper, This does not look like the physical organ but more a representation of the "heart" God lives in.

As in, "here is my heart for Valentine's Day" and I give my wife a cut out piece of paper with frill around the edge.

The Jesus Prayer is supposed to be said while imagining the "heart" above the left ******. As you breath in and out saying the prayer, you imagine it (the prayer) living within the "heart".

PC

[Xenia Rose]

The Jesus Prayer is supposed to be said while imagining the "heart" above the left ******. As you breath in and out saying the prayer, you imagine it (the prayer) living within the "heart".

PC

Greetings Paul,

I am very concerned about your post. I do not believe that noetic prayer should be done in this fashion until one has received the blessings of one's Spiritual Father. Yet, here you say it is "supposed to be said while imagining....".

No, the prayer should be said as instructed by our Spiritual Father ONLY.

I think you could say that the Jesus Prayer could be said this way if one is given the blessing to do so.

I strongly encourage you to speak to your Spiritual Father about the use of this "imagining" to make sure you have his blessing and that you no longer inform others of how to engage in a practice they may not be prepared to do.

The danger of prelest is signficant in this situation if someone not prepared starts to do this. Perhaps you are prepared but this is a public board with lurkers some of which have never set foot in an Orthdox Church and some who are Orthodox but not advanced enough for this practice.

[Paul Cowan]

Greetings Paul,

I am very concerned about your post. I do not believe that noetic prayer should be done in this fashion until one has received the blessings of one's Spiritual Father. Yet, here you say it is "supposed to be said while imagining....".

No, the prayer should be said as instructed by our Spiritual Father ONLY.

I think you could say that the Jesus Prayer could be said this way if one is given the blessing to do so.

I strongly encourage you to speak to your Spiritual Father about the use of this "imagining" to make sure you have his blessing and that you no longer inform others of how to engage in a practice they may not be prepared to do.

The danger of prelest is signficant in this situation if someone not prepared starts to do this. Perhaps you are prepared but this is a public board with lurkers some of which have never set foot in an Orthdox Church and some who are Orthodox but not advanced enough for this practice.

Dear Xeniarose:
I thank you for your post. I would not dare to offer such advise on my own nor to actually do this prayer properly without guidance.

Most have read The Way of the Pilgrim. I was just speaking from page 9 and 10...


He opened the book, found the instructions by St. Simeon the New Theologian and read," Sit down alone and in silence. Lower your head, shut your eyes, breathe out gently and imagine yourself looking into your own heart. Carry your mind, that is, your thoughts, from your head to your heart. As you breathe out, say 'Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me.' say it moving your lips gently, or simply say it in your mind. Try to pull all other thoughts aside. Be calm, be patient and repeat the prcoess very frequently." (Bold mine)

And again in The Unseen Warfare pages 214-218 specifically pg 217 section (7)


Note also, that attention should be in the heart, or inside the breast, as some fathers say, namely, a little above the left nipple, -and there the Jesus prayer should be repeated.

And this from Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos


Even if you cannot do exactly what they do, still you can achieve many things. It must be made clear, however, that noetic prayer is one thing and praying the Jesus prayer another. Noetic prayer, as some hesychasts practise it, requires a life without distraction. It requires quietness and many other things, as we have already described. If you cannot practise noetic prayer in the world –and this is very difficult– you must pray with the Jesus prayer at set times or say it whenever you can. It will do you great good.

So you see there is a difference between Noetic prayer and the Jesus prayer. I do not advocate any prayers which your spiritual Father does not assign nor gives you permission to do. I was simply describing a prayer that most everyone should already know about.

I guard against saying anything on my own without looking for the source first. Please view all the texts on the Prayer of the Heart from our very own Monachos library.

http://www.monachos.net/library/The_Jesus_Prayer_-_The_Prayer_of_the_Heart

In Christ

PC

[Kusanagi]

Apparently in discussion with other people donating the heart is not ok as that is what leads us to the inner man and listening to God speaking to us.

[Paul Cowan]

Apparently in discussion with other people donating the heart is not ok as that is what leads us to the inner man and listening to God speaking to us.

But if you are dead, you don't need this physical organ anymore to "hear God". Why not give it away to someone else who will live a while longer to allow them more time to listen to God in their inner man?

[Kusanagi]

But if you are dead, you don't need this physical organ anymore to "hear God". Why not give it away to someone else who will live a while longer to allow them more time to listen to God in their inner man?

In the end it will lead not to that person's centre of being as the heart is not originally their's get it?

[Paul Cowan]

In the end it will lead not to that person's centre of being as the heart is not originally their's get it?

No, I am sorry, I don't. Regardless of whether the physical organ of the heart was originally theirs to begin with, the purpose of centering on the heart is a location within, not necessarily the physical organ. It is a location within the body that is centered to the body. The heart just happensd to be in the same place of this centering. It very well could have been a lung.

Paul

[Kusanagi]

Because the Holy Fathers say the heart leads to a particular person's inner man and soul donating the heart means it will lead to the donator's soul.
There was a documentry in UK to say that people have memories from the donator after lots of research.

[Paul Cowan]

Because the Holy Fathers say the heart leads to a particular person's inner man and soul donating the heart means it will lead to the donator's soul.
There was a documentry in UK to say that people have memories from the donator after lots of research.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one Sigfrid.

[Effie Ganatsios]

This subject is one that my husband and I have been discussing ever since learning that Archbishop Christodoulos was going to have a liver transplant in the US. I think he left a couple of days ago for Miami or somewhere. Limousine, use of the Greek President's jet to travel to the US, and probably luxury accommodation all the time he is there........... did Christ live like this? I prayed for him to be well when we first learnt about his illness, and I suppose a liver transplant might be God's way of healing him, but talking about humility and simplicity etc. and then living the life these priests live just does not add up.

There is something about the fact that he is having this transplant that does not seem right to me. I am not in a position to judge but I can't help wondering if the liver that is being given couldn't have been used by a young person, one who is not as rich as Christodoulos or as pampered. I hope God will forgive me for my harshness but for an Archbishop who believes in God's will being done, it doesn't seem that that is what he is doing.

Does anyone have any comments on this?

Effie

[Herman Blaydoe]

I cannot speak for bishops or other people, but for my part, I think my own reaction these days as a grandfather might have been different back when I was a young father of three, were I facing an imminent but possibly preventable death. Not having the well-being of many people not linked directly to my continued earthly existance makes leaving it behind quite a bit easier, in my mind. Perhaps this bishop feels the needs of his flock are better met by his getting this transplant than leaving them?

I guess I just do not feel the need to judge him on his decision or begrudge him his shot at continued life and service in the Lord. I am content to let his motives be between him and the Lord he serves. You asked for comments, this is mine.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I cannot speak for bishops or other people, but for my part, I think my own reaction these days as a grandfather might have been different back when I was a young father of three, were I facing an imminent but possibly preventable death. Not having the well-being of many people not linked directly to my continued earthly existance makes leaving it behind quite a bit easier, in my mind. Perhaps this bishop feels the needs of his flock are better met by his getting this transplant than leaving them?

I guess I just do not feel the need to judge him on his decision or begrudge him his shot at continued life and service in the Lord. I am content to let his motives be between him and the Lord he serves. You asked for comments, this is mine.

Thank you, Herman. Organ transplants are one of the miracles of the modern world and they have saved many lives. I am completely in agreement with both being a donor and with accepting an organ for a child or a grandchild.

I am trying not to judge Christodoulos and, as you so rightly say, his decision is between him and his Lord. I just can't help feeling uneasy about the whole situation.

Thank you for your opinion. It has helped me think a little deeper.

Effie

[Vasileios Kouroumalis]

I am not very happy for this to be my first post in this wonderful community, since it will involve a bit of criticizing but I think this point of view should be heard.

As far as I know the signing of the donor forms by most hierarchs in the Churh of Greece is more of a symbolic thing, since organs from people above 60 years old are unacceptable. Meaning that in effect none of these hierarchs will actually be donors. I think that generally since organs do not grow on trees either, they tend to give them to people younger than 60 as well. I'll finish this by saying this is just one more thing that the Archbishop of Athens makes me feel uncomfortable with.

Secondly, and most importantly, we have the clear teaching of three contemporary elders, the elder Porphyrios, the elder Paisios and the elder Sophrony of Essex, who said that organ donation is acceptable *only* for double organs, i.e. kidneys and eyes.

It should be noted as well, that the Church of Greece organizationally, does not represent the whole of Greece geographically. There is also the Church of Crete, whose synod recently took a position similar to the teachings of the elders.

There are a few issues that are more complex than what the popular media let on, such as when a person is declared officially dead, the Glasgow scale, the uncertainty behind many things...

Having said all this, I of course admit that I have been blessed never to be in the difficult position of either me or someone I love dearly to need an organ transplant to live, so I dare not pass judgement to anyone who has different ideas than me.

From the strictly safe distance I cannot ignore what three holy men have made quite clear. It is a serious consideration I believe.

[Mina Soliman]

I am a medical school student, and I have worked with cadavers, plastinations, cross sections, etc. of human bodies. If indeed this was wrong, I would suppose going to a medical school was wrong as well. In medical school however, we are taught to "venerate" (using Orthodox language here) our own cadavers, like they were not just our first patients, but our best teachers as well. I think that's quite a deal of respect that we are taught when dealing ethically with these cadavers. We as Orthodox do no differently when we cut out arms, legs, fingers, bones, etc, and wrap around with clothe, spices, and a covering, put it in our Church for veneration, equal to that of venerating an icon, perhaps more so since this is a real body part of some saint.

Now, the idea of which organs to give and which not to give assumes that the these physical parts of your body are what the Bible and the Fathers talk about. Now, I have to agree with Paul Cowan who earlier said that the heart the Bible talks about should not be understood as the real physical heart we have. Nevertheless, I do agree that the ancient fathers did believe it was the same heart. Should we dogmatically then believe what these fathers believed? Well, the science the Fathers had back then is not as advanced as the science we have today. St. Paul and many ancient Christians believed that compassion came from your bowels. We know today this is not the case, that all emotions really come from the brain, and that includes where ancient Christians believed where the heart was.

Finally, we also have to understand we will be decomposed. The heart will not exist anymore. Is it really that worth keeping the heart if it's going to be eaten up by the worms? If the heart was that important as many here have said, then surely in every dead skeleton we dig up, we should find the heart preserved. But do we?

Keep in mind, I understand the importance of the General Resurrection on Judgment Day, that we will be raised body and soul. But notice, these bodies we have are but seeds for the more glorious physical bodies we will possess, as St. Paul teaches. We will not actually walk around with our skeletons like movies may portray, unless I'm mistaken.

In the end, I think we have to be careful making judgments on things if we do not understand the science behind it. In this manner, I would hope we do not receive the same ridicule from the scientific community as the Protestants do.

God bless.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I am not very happy for this to be my first post in this wonderful community, since it will involve a bit of criticizing but I think this point of view should be heard.

As far as I know the signing of the donor forms by most hierarchs in the Churh of Greece is more of a symbolic thing, since organs from people above 60 years old are unacceptable. Meaning that in effect none of these hierarchs will actually be donors. I think that generally since organs do not grow on trees either, they tend to give them to people younger than 60 as well. I'll finish this by saying this is just one more thing that the Archbishop of Athens makes me feel uncomfortable with.

Secondly, and most importantly, we have the clear teaching of three contemporary elders, the elder Porphyrios, the elder Paisios and the elder Sophrony of Essex, who said that organ donation is acceptable *only* for double organs, i.e. kidneys and eyes.

It should be noted as well, that the Church of Greece organizationally, does not represent the whole of Greece geographically. There is also the Church of Crete, whose synod recently took a position similar to the teachings of the elders.

There are a few issues that are more complex than what the popular media let on, such as when a person is declared officially dead, the Glasgow scale, the uncertainty behind many things...

Having said all this, I of course admit that I have been blessed never to be in the difficult position of either me or someone I love dearly to need an organ transplant to live, so I dare not pass judgement to anyone who has different ideas than me.

From the strictly safe distance I cannot ignore what three holy men have made quite clear. It is a serious consideration I believe.

Welcome, Basili to our forum. I think the subject of Christodoulos and his transplant has made quite a few Greeks uneasy. If he were just an ordinary man I don't suppose I would have any problems with his decision, but I can't help comparing him to Elder Paisios who needed a direct order from the Patriach to visit a doctor and have tests done. And I also remember his actions and words when he was suffering, how thoughtful of others - a friend told me that when he visited him in hospital the Father was mindful and considerate of my friend and his troubles (he had recently lost his wife to cancer) and how much of an impression this made on him.

I hope you are OK and are far from the tragic fires that are ravaging our country today.

Effie

[Nina]

I have no idea how to deal with this ethical issue (of organ donation) because I am in no way the person to judge about those cases. But I have a story.

There is someone who works with neonates and he said that there is a baby in the NICU, who has kidney and liver failure. If the baby does not receive transplant he will pass away. The father will donate one kidney to the baby and the grandmother will donate a part of her liver. But there is always a possibility of rejection because everyone has a different cell structure.

I think and believe that the last word is still that of God, whatever we do. His will will be done always, even when we think we accomplish something. Christ said:
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31#fen-NIV-23447d)]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. Matthew 10:29-31

[Andreas Moran]

I've got a Yamaha I could donate.