Exorcism in the Orthodox Church

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear All,

Last night I watched the very scary (but not trashy) film "The Exorcism of Emily Rose". As in the "Exorcist" movies, the RC priest is shown reading from The Roman Ritual to exorcise the demons which possess the lead character, Emily Rose. Apparently it's all based on a true story.

I wonder what our Church's view on exorcism is? Do we have an equivalent text to "The Roman Ritual"? I've read that we do not have a special order of priest known as an exorcist; who performs exorcisms in our Church? Can a layman (if he has enough faith and guts!)?

A more pastoral issue particularly for our monachosnet Frs: should I be watching films like this? I am not interested in gory, sensationalist horror blockbusters, (which as I say, this film was not) but in the few movies that seem to have any theological content at all in our dreary days of action and lifestyles of the rich and famous...

In Christ
Byron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

In the Book of Needs (Trebnik, I don't know what this is called in Greek) there is a service for deliverance from unclean spirits; there are other individual prayers for this along with a prayer for an 'unclean' dwelling.

In general one would approach a priest about this especially if things were serious enough that one needed to do an actual service or exorcism. But for us since there is no clear line between possession and sin in general 'exorcism' includes not only a specific service but also prayer for the person, involvement in the sacraments & an ascetic/spiritual life. Thus not only priests but also family, friends and the Church in general are all exorcists in a way.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Thank you for that clarification, Fr Raphael. After a brief internet search, I also found an article on Orthodox exorcism (Exorcism in the Orthodox Church (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7079.asp)), as well as information on the Wikipedia about who the real "Emily Rose" was (Anneliese Michel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rose)). The story is quite intriguing, which is probably why it got made into a film.

Films like this remind me that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."(Eph 6:12).


In Christ
Byron

[Edward Henderson]

I also recently saw that film and found it interesting. Like the Exorcist (which is probably the scariest film ever made), it is interesting that the Priest, in the end, cannot exorcise the Demon from the possessed. The Exorcist is more fictional. Still, the ethos of the whole experience is far removed from the Orthodox tradition and is rather illogical. The Devil and the demons wish to destroy our souls and their best tactic is temptation. We also know that the Devil is very cunning in his devices, which means I doubt he would go to the trouble of possessing someone if, according to the film, it would lead others and the possessed to salvation.

When we read the lives of the saints, the devils usually try to drive monks from their struggles through temptations and only when they were steadfast did they use fear. But, when we are Baptised, the devil is driven from us, as prayers of exorcism are read over the catechumen before the baptism takes place.

Seeing Emily Rose, a devout Catholic, possessed by a demon would only confirm my belief of the lack of grace in the Sacraments of the Latin Church. In Orthodoxy, the demons can only possess a believer is he or she allows them to. A pious, practicing, Orthodox Christmas will be tempted by the demons, even oppressed, but never possessed. Emily Rose just gets possessed against her will and only accepts it, when she has a 'vision' from the Mother of God telling her how allowing this will bring others to faith. Again, we do not see this in Orthodoxy, which indicates an overall state of spiritual deception (prelest) in Emily Rose. This is sad but understandible given the victim is outside the Church.
The only other issue of exorcism in the Orthodox Church is that a Priest generally will not do one to one possessed unless their is a commitment to their spiritual lives because should He read the prayers and the demon is exorcises, but their is no change in the person, more demons could return, making the whole situation worse.

This is why reading prayers of exorcism over those outside the Church, who are not seeking to enter the Church, is dangerous.

I think as Orthodox Christians, we need to be aware that demons are not so stupid to use sensationalist tricks to destroy our souls (as we see in the movies), but are much more cunning, they look for our weaknesses and vices and tempt us to fall into them. That is why they are truely dangerous.

Edward

[Tim Grass]

The things that gets me most about movies dealing with exorcism is what always comes across as a total authority and power to the devil... the invocation of Christ is treated like a joke, and only has power when combined with all sorts of special tricks, elaborite rites, etc, etc, etc. But in the sayings of the Desert Fathers, just making the sign of the cross in silence destroys the presence of demons..... Saying the name of Jesus dispels demonic visions.

--tim

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Edward and Tim,

I find all the points you make about the film quite pertinent. I also found much that made me question what was being shown, although at least this was a movie that engaged with theological issues (and legal ones) on a deeper than surface level. Apparently a more historically accurate depiction of what really went on during the exorcism of Anneliese Michel is being currently made in a German movie about the same story.

Edward, you wrote:


Emily Rose just gets possessed against her will and only accepts it, when she has a 'vision' from the Mother of God telling her how allowing this will bring others to faith. Again, we do not see this in Orthodoxy, which indicates an overall state of spiritual deception (prelest) in Emily Rose. This is sad but understandible given the victim is outside the Church.

Can you say more about how Emily Rose's unwilling possession indicates a state of prelest? I thought the encounter with the Mother of God (tastefully not depicted) was a reasonably orthodox (small"o") one, at least in the sense that it suggested the power of the Devil was once again preempted by God, Who permitted this terrible thing to happen as a martyrdom for Emily Rose and witness for others. Mmhm...come to think of it, does anyone know any similar stories in the lives of Orthodox saints, where possession is part of martyrdom? Also, is it heretical or non-orthodox to suggest that God may use the terror of the reality of evil in order to bring people to faith?

Interesting points, Edward; I'd like to hear more. And Tim, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right - that whole business of priests sweating and spraying holy water around could make it look as if Christ is in some way challenged by the power of the devil. If I understand things correctly, it is the devil who is terrified by the power of Christ, but we humans are understandably frightened by this cunning deceiver - though we shouldn't be, if we trust in the power of the Lord.

In Christ
Byron

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Edward,

Following on Byron's last point in this thread (his no. 245, above), I would also be interested to know more on what you meant by commenting that possession indicates a state of prelest. This seems an interesting comment - would like to hear it fleshed out.

INXC, Matthew

[Edward Henderson]

In the film, the Mother of God supposedly appears to Emily Rose and tells her she can end this possession now or continue in it and by doing so will lead others to faith. Emily accepts to remain possessed and eventually dies.

This, in my view, indicates an overall condition of spiritual deception. First all this is true, because she, although a good and believing person, is outside the Church. Now, assume she were Orthodox and the same thing had happened. It would still indicate spritual deception. Why? When we read the lives of the saints, we never see holy people possessed by demons while they are activily living a Christian spiritual life. Once we are baptised, the devil is driven from our heart and can no longer enter there unless we allow it. This is why prayers of exorcism are read over the catechumen, even if they are infants, before baptism. Now, we do see demonic oppression in the lives of the saints. First through temptations and then through fear and intimidation. We can read many lives where the demons appear as a beautiful women, an advocate for their return to the world, even as angels, a saint, the Theotokos or Christ Himself to excite any spiritual pride. This is why the Church teaches that it is no sin to reject a holy vision. And this has occurred where angels, saints, the Mother of God, or Christ Himself appeared to a righteous person, but the vision was rejected out of humility. This is not counted as a sin.

When appealing to a struggler's pride or passions, if that fails, the demons usually then will try fear. So, we see cases of them appearing as animals, dragons, or as their fallen form to frighten the saint from his/her place of struggle. Finally, when that fails, then we see intimidation, demons violently and physically assaulting the struggler.

However, we do not see possession. This is outside the genuine experience of the Christian life, as the Orthodox Church teaches.

Not wanting to offend anybody, I still must point out that the Roman Catholic Church is not Christ's Church, meaning the fullness of divine grace is absent there and in their sacraments. As devout a Christian as Emily Rose was, she was still outside the Church and much more vulnerable, as all outside the Church are, to spiritual deception (prelest)and even demonic possession, as the baptismal and eucharistic mysteries of the Latin Church lack the grace found the in Orthodox Church's baptismal and eucharistic mysteries.
In the end, the Priest was unable to drive the devil from Emily Rose. In the end also, Emily Rose was deluded to believe that she had found herself worthy to receive an appearence from the Mother of God and to believe that the Mother of God would encourage her to remain in a state of demonic possession for the sake of her salvation. If that were possible, then the Church ought never to read prayers of exorcism over anyone. The whole purpose of exorcism is the drive the demons out of a living soul, because by remaining there, they destroy the soul. God gave us the passion of hatred not to hate one another, but to hate the demons and the devil. Again, this is why we spit upon the devil during the baptismal ceremony. The saints always struggled to drive the demons away (by prayer, fasting, asceticism, etc.). We know that we can do this by the sign of the cross. That is part of the reason, the Church teaches us to make the sign of the cross and say the Jesus Prayer when we feel tempted.

Edward

[George K.]

Here's an interesting story from the Desert Fathers:

(Source: [Link] (http://goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8135.asp))

Once a demonized youth went to the skete of some Fathers in order to be cured by their prayers. Out of humility, however, they fled. For much time, the unfortunate man suffered thus, until a certain elder took pity on him, crossed him with a wooden cross he had on his belt, and cast out the evil spirit.

"Since you evict me from my abode," the spirit said, "I will enter you."

"Come," the elder courageously answered him.

So it is that the demon entered into him and tortured him for a full twelve years. The holy one endured the struggle with fortitude, but fought against his enemy with superhuman fasting and unceasing prayer. All of those years he never even once put food in his mouth, chewing rather a few date pits every evening and swallowing only the juice from them.

Finally, conquered by the incessant struggle of the elder, the demon freed him.

"Why are you leaving?" the elder asker him. "No one is casting you out."

"Your fasting destroyed me," answered the demon, becoming invisible.

(Message edited by admin on 02 January, 2006)

[Alec Lowly]

Edward writes:

"In the film, the Mother of God supposedly appears to Emily Rose and tells her she can end this possession now or continue in it and by doing so will lead others to faith. Emily accepts to remain possessed and eventually dies."

At the risk of sounding like a real kill-joy, I have to say that I've counseled young people not to watch horror flicks, read horror novels or play "Dungeons and Dragons." In the old days, good always triumphed over evil, the horror films and literature were much less explicit re sex, violence, etc., and role-playing games were really tame.

I really don't understand what a Christian would get out of horror entertainment, but hey, adults may do as they wish. The last horror film I saw that I found at all frightening was "The Others," precisely because the horror was left to one's imagination.

In XC,
Alec, sinner

[Alec Lowly]

"Since you evict me from my abode," the spirit said, "I will enter you."

"Come," the elder courageously answered him."

This would be ~ruinous~ advice for the overwhelming majority of us. Even if this story is literally true, the spirit was mistaken. It was not cast out by fasting, as such, but the total commitment of the elder to the will of God that won him the grace to fast so strenuously.

No?

In XC,
Alec, sinner

[Edward Henderson]

That is an interesting story. Still, notice, this monk is a great ascetic and even though the demon enters him, he is not possessed. The monk still led a holy, ascetic, life.

[Klod]

As an example of demonic possession I would mention the case of Motovilov in Saint Seraphim's life?


If I remember exactly, he experienced in detail what possession is, which he was to endure it up to the end of his life, foretold to him by Saint Seraphim

[Guest]

Dear Edward,

You are wrong. In the book 'A Saint for our Times' by Sotos Hondropoulos, the biographical narrative on the life of St. Nektarios, an otherwise innocent girl in Piraeus, Greece is possessed by a powerful demon because her father curses her by wishing evil upon her...(such type of curses upon another, unfortunately exist in the Greek language).

A priest was called to the house to do an exorcism, and he went there a few times, but each time, the demon came back at him with his unrepented sins. Infact, the demon claimed to be one of the three most evil on earth at the time..the other two being in Russia and China. (This was the early twentieth century, so this is very interesting). Finally, the priest was giving up, when the demon exclaimed that the only one who could exorcise him was the 'one with the nails'. It took some figuring out, but it turned out that the 'one with the nails' was the intact body of Saint Nektarios whose nails were still growing!

The girl was taken to the island of Aegina, to the tomb of the Saint, and indeed, she was finally liberated. Apparently, in such cases, only one who is very, very holy can succeed in exorcising the demon.

[Jorgo Ristevski]

http://paranormal.about.com/od/demonsandexorcism/a/aa031405.htm

What do you think about this? Orthodox exorcism? Fake or true?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

It's hard to tell if this is authentic. When I played the clip there was no visual only audio. But it sounds dreadful enough.

Yes- such things do occur whether this particular event was authentic or not.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

Bishop Eirenaios performed exorcisms when he was younger and physically stronger. He said it is extremely dangerous work which needs much prior fasting and prayer. It is only a few who can undertake this. He had the blessing and prayers of his spiritual father to do this. (Yes, even he had a spiritual father.) He usually cast the expelled demon into water, he said. It seems objects can be possessed. I was in the bishop's house one evening when his computer switched itself on and started printing out very rapidly the number given in Revelation (which I don't want to type). The bishop gathered up all the sheets of paper, drew crosses all round the edges and passed the whole bundle to Elder Sophrony. I don't know what the Elder did with the bundle.

A priest I was lunching with yesterday told us that he once baptised a nine-year-old girl who, before the baptism, in church, was shouting, 'don't bring that f - - - - g water near me!' He immediately called on the parents to renounce Satan and all his works, and the girl became calm and the sacrament proceeded without further disturbance.

[Jorgo Ristevski]

Bishop Eirenaios performed exorcisms when he was younger and physically stronger. He said it is extremely dangerous work which needs much prior fasting and prayer. It is only a few who can undertake this. He had the blessing and prayers of his spiritual father to do this. (Yes, even he had a spiritual father.) He usually cast the expelled demon into water, he said. It seems objects can be possessed. I was in the bishop's house one evening when his computer switched itself on and started printing out very rapidly the number given in Revelation (which I don't want to type). The bishop gathered up all the sheets of paper, drew crosses all round the edges and passed the whole bundle to Elder Sophrony. I don't know what the Elder did with the bundle.

A priest I was lunching with yesterday told us that he once baptised a nine-year-old girl who, before the baptism, in church, was shouting, 'don't bring that f - - - - g water near me!' He immediately called on the parents to renounce Satan and all his works, and the girl became calm and the sacrament proceeded without further disturbance.

Interesting.

By the way, Father Raphael as far as I know there is a video clip of an Orthodox Exorcism.

http://paranormal.about.com/library/bl_exorcism_video.htm

Here is the video. If you want watch it.

[Fr. Deacon Elias]

In the Book of Needs (Trebnik, I don't know what this is called in Greek) there is a service for deliverance from unclean spirits; there are other individual prayers for this along with a prayer for an 'unclean' dwelling.

In general one would approach a priest about this especially if things were serious enough that one needed to do an actual service or exorcism. But for us since there is no clear line between possession and sin in general 'exorcism' includes not only a specific service but also prayer for the person, involvement in the sacraments & an ascetic/spiritual life. Thus not only priests but also family, friends and the Church in general are all exorcists in a way.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Dear Fr. Raphael

Christ is in our Midst!

I am familiar with the book of needs and its special prayers of deliverance, however we as Orthodox seem to be lacking in the ministry of exorcism with regards to our sister church of the west... namely the Roman Catholic Church. They have re-ignited and re-instituted the specialized department of Exorcism. We as Orthodox seem to very passive about this special need...more so now than ever.

We are seeing many more cases of moral decay in our young people whether they be Orthodox or not. It is our duty to our Savior to war against diobolic possesion. Do we as Orthodox have any trained Exorcist Priests?..and if so who are they and where are they located?

In Christ+
Fr. Deacon Elias

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr Dn Elias wrote:


We are seeing many more cases of moral decay in our young people whether they be Orthodox or not. It is our duty to our Savior to war against diobolic possesion. Do we as Orthodox have any trained Exorcist Priests?..and if so who are they and where are they located?

No, we do not train specific priests in exorcism; although the exorcism services are usually referred to in seminary Liturgics or Pastoral Theology courses.

The reason for this I think is because every priest is called to be an exorcist in a sense. This refers not only to the service of exorcism but also to the rest of the sacraments such as confession especially which always opens the penitent to that grace which protects them from evil.

As for specific exorcists I think these also exist but in the sense just described. In other words the real trained exorcists within the Church are the saints and elders trained in the ascetic life.

This also perhaps brings us back to why we do not have 'trained exorcists': one could never plan who is to receive such a grace in regards to evil but rather this is the result of man's desire for God which resides in the heart and God's own mysterious purposes. In effect the person who has most died to themselves is an exorcist in the way God intends this which isn't necessarily as obvious as we would think an exorcist would be.

in Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eric Peterson]

As an example of demonic possession I would mention the case of Motovilov in Saint Seraphim's life? If I remember exactly, he experienced in detail what possession is, which he was to endure it up to the end of his life, foretold to him by Saint Seraphim

Dear Mr. Klod,

I don't have my Life of St. Seraphim on hand, but, from what I remember, it doesn't seem that Motovilov was possessed, but rather oppressed by demon(s). This is an important distinction to make.

In the Lives of the Saints and in the Gospels, possessed people have certain peculiarities of behavior which demonically oppressed people do not have. These include superhuman strength (as in the demoniac possessed by Legion in the Gospels), the making of animal noises (as in the movie "Osrov," and, most significantly, an aversion to all holy things--often including running away, swearing, fighting, cursing, etc. (as in the above mentioned incident of the baptism of the nine year old girl).

Motovilov, who was a pious man living the life of the Church, appears to be oppressed by demons. He is depressed, has a feeling of darkness and heaviness. A change in the soul's feeling, but not, it appears, in behavior. (Citations of the relevant texts will tell whether I'm wrong on this.) He continues to live a Christian life. He doesn't lose control of his faculties. (These are important signs.) He does not die in that state, however. As St. Seraphim had prophesied to him both his oppression and deliverance. Motovilov was freed from this oppression at the glorification of St. Mitrophan of Voronezh (if I recall correctly).

Eric

[Eric Peterson]

Dear Edward,

You are wrong. In the book 'A Saint for our Times' by Sotos Hondropoulos, the biographical narrative on the life of St. Nektarios, an otherwise innocent girl in Piraeus, Greece is possessed by a powerful demon because her father curses her by wishing evil upon her...(such type of curses upon another, unfortunately exist in the Greek language).

A priest was called to the house to do an exorcism, and he went there a few times, but each time, the demon came back at him with his unrepented sins. Infact, the demon claimed to be one of the three most evil on earth at the time..the other two being in Russia and China. (This was the early twentieth century, so this is very interesting). Finally, the priest was giving up, when the demon exclaimed that the only one who could exorcise him was the 'one with the nails'. It took some figuring out, but it turned out that the 'one with the nails' was the intact body of Saint Nektarios whose nails were still growing!

The girl was taken to the island of Aegina, to the tomb of the Saint, and indeed, she was finally liberated. Apparently, in such cases, only one who is very, very holy can succeed in exorcising the demon.

Dear Guest,

You are right that a holy person is required for exorcism, particularly in the hard cases. The priest you mentioned could not exorcise the demon because he had unconfessed sins. He was, to put it another way, not taken seriously.

But, regarding curses, Father Paisios of the Holy Mountain says a lot in the relevant chapter of his book "With Pain and Love for Contemporary Man." He says that one must never curse, for cursing is a demonic activity. The curser, unless he or she repent, will have to answer for it to God. A curse is made, and if it find no "resting place" in the one who is cursed, it returns to the one who cursed, and the evil falls on him or her.

If, however, the one who is cursed is somehow deserving of a curse--he or she has done some evil and not repented--then the curse "sticks" and the evil falls on that person. All this is the work of the demons. And, the curser still has to answer for a curse given, even to one "deserving."

So, in the case of the father cursing his daughter and the curse "sticking," one has to wonder if there was some reason the curse stuck. If she was innocent, maybe it stuck to punish her father and bring him to repentance.

But, the question of whether the girl was, in fact, possessed can only, I think, be answered by an examination of the symptoms she displayed--since there is a pretty well established differentiation between demonic possession (where the demon has control of a person) and demonic oppression (where the demon greatly tries and tempts a person).

I've made this post and the last using logic, given the information provided in this thread and what I've read. I am not qualified, however, to speak on this with authority because I lack spiritual experience. Perhaps Fr. Paisios writes about possession and oppression in his books. Unfortunately, they are not all translated into English.

On another note, I would ask a question about Mr. Sotos Hondropoulos' book "A Saint for our Times." I've read the book a couple times, and I enjoy reading it--it is spiritually comforting and edifying. However, it appears to be more of a novel than a Vita of St. Nektarios. That is, I'm not sure what is fact and what is embellishment. There's a lot in the book which Mr. Hondropoulos could not, as a regular author, no matter how well informed, know about St. Nektarios' inner thought, emotions, etc. So, to me, the book, while good, is not quite authoritative. Perhaps others have more expertise and could speak more on the subject.

Eric

[Andreas Moran]

Chapter IX, entitled 'Are the Torments of Hell a Reality?', of Archimandrite Lazarus Moore's book deals with this. Motovilov said to St Seraphim (in his usual impetuous way), 'Father, how I should like to have a bout with the devils!'. St Seraphim was greatly alarmed and described the devils. Motovilov's challenge, though, was accepted. He wondered how a devout Orthodox Christian who frequently took Holy Communion could yet be possessed by the devil. Then, Motovilov experienced terrible cold and a foul smell. He was tortured by cold and then hot and then by the Worm. St Seraphim appeared to him and told him he would know by these things that the torments of hell are real but he would be released from them at the exposition of the relics of St Tikhon Zadonsky. Motovilov was helped by Archbishop Antony of Voronezh who gave him Holy Communion. It was not until more than thirty years later, in 1865, that Motovilov was healed. In church one day the relics of the saint were exposed, Motovilov had a vision of St Tikhon seated on the bishop's throne, and the torments immediately left him.

[Father David Moser]

Dear Mr. Klod,


Dear Guest,

Dear Eric,

I would like to point out to you that you are responding to posts that are nearly 2 years old and the accounts of those who posted are no longer active on the forum. Your comments are interesting in themselves, however, I would not expect people who are no longer present to defend comments they made nearly 2 years ago.

I would like to take this chance to remind everyone that when you are reading back in the archives and on inactive threads to keep in mind the time stamp on the posts and to notice whether or not the poster is currently active. If, as was noted above, the posts are old and the posters no longer around, then I would suggest that you tailor your comments to reignite discussion on the topic, but don't address people who are no longer with us.

Fr David Moser

[Eric Peterson]

I'm sorry Father. I didn't see the time stamp. I will pay better attention to that next time.

[Father David Moser]

I'm sorry Father. I didn't see the time stamp. I will pay better attention to that next time.

You aren't the first - and probably won't be the last - to do this so don't worry about it. I like to point that out once in a while just as a reminder for us all (since everyone seems to forget at one time or another...)

Fr David

[Effie Ganatsios]

On another note, I would ask a question about Mr. Sotos Hondropoulos' book "A Saint for our Times." I've read the book a couple times, and I enjoy reading it--it is spiritually comforting and edifying. However, it appears to be more of a novel than a Vita of St. Nektarios. That is, I'm not sure what is fact and what is embellishment. There's a lot in the book which Mr. Hondropoulos could not, as a regular author, no matter how well informed, know about St. Nektarios' inner thought, emotions, etc. So, to me, the book, while good, is not quite authoritative. Perhaps others have more expertise and could speak more on the subject.

Eric

Eric, I am rereading this book now, and I have to admit that sometimes I have wondered the same thing. The author has included some of St. Nektarios' correspondence but not enough I feel. His letters to the nuns were full of sound advice and very practical. Not at all flowery and otherworldy as the author of this book makes St. Nektarios out to be.

Yesterday I went to the Metropolitican's bookshop in our town and tried to find a book with the saint's writings. They had quite a lot but the Greek was too difficult for me. The English book I have I found at a monastery in the Peloponesse. There are some texts that you can download from the Internet so I am going to download and read his writings (whatever I can find) from there. Despite the flaws in this book, what does come through to us is the goodness of St. Nektarios. He wrote a lot of books and I need to read things that he wrote himself.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

How does one determine whether someone whom we think is possessed is not just mentally ill?

This has always puzzled me. Praying over someone can only do them good, but I once watched a documentary on TV concerning exorcism and it looked as if the person were being tortured. If a person is mentally ill, wouldn't such a procedure do them more harm than good.

Effie

[Andreas Moran]

I can never forget one visit to the Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra. One day, outside the eastern end of the Holy Trinity church (which contains the relics of St Sergius), there stood a woman facing east, bowing and trying to cross herself. She could touch her forehead, her middle and her right shoulder but could not complete the cross by moving her hand to her left shoulder. She was there all day like that. Ill or possessed?

[Effie Ganatsios]

I can never forget one visit to the Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra. One day, outside the eastern end of the Holy Trinity church (which contains the relics of St Sergius), there stood a woman facing east, bowing and trying to cross herself. She could touch her forehead, her middle and her right shoulder but could not complete the cross by moving her hand to her left shoulder. She was there all day like that. Ill or possessed?

Perhaps she had a physical disability and was waiting for a miracle.
This is the first thing that came to mind when I read your description of her actions.

Effie

[Angela V.]

Effie,

Can you email this site on St Nectarios writings?

+Angela

[Effie Ganatsios]

Angela, I found this but I am still looking. The book I have has only a few of his letters to the nuns in the monastery he established. As I said in a previous post I asked at the bookshop but what they had was in Greek and the parts I read were a little too difficult for me.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/nektarios/

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

I finished the book yesterday and near the end read the segment already referred to concerning the girl who was possessed. Her father was an uncouth man and frequently blasphemed against the Lord. In one of his rages he cursed his daughter. This is completely opposite to what normal Greek families are like, because if there is one thing they go overboard about, it is their children.

Even St. Nektarios, while alive, could not cure this girl and it was only after his death that a miracle occurred. She became a nun in 1926 and joined the monastery at Aegina.

It seems strange in this day and age to believe in possession by the devil or demons, but if we look around us, we see so much evil that only a fool would believe that these things belong to the past.

[Andreas Moran]

It seems strange in this day and age to believe in possession by the devil or demons
Just what the devil wants - if he doesn't exist it can't be his fault! Then people will accept Antichrist when he comes. Who will believe all that stuff in Revelation?


but if we look around us, we see so much evil that only a fool would believe that these things belong to the past.

But remember the prophecy of St Anthony about the last times: most people will be mad and only the Christians will be sane; but the mad majority will scoff at the Christians and say they are insane. Most people in the world must think we are fools for believing all that we do believe, including what I heard described not long ago as 'medieval bone worship'.

So much evil? St Seraphim of Sarov said to Motovilov that the least of the demons could turn the world upside down with its claw. We do not know how much evil God prevents.

[Father David Moser]

Just what the devil wants - if he doesn't exist it can't be his fault! Then people will accept Antichrist when he comes. Who will believe all that stuff in Revelation?

Actually, I think "all that stuff in Revelation" will be at the heart of the evil one's deception in the last days. I believe that before the Antichrist appears, there will be a 'false antichrist' who is obviously 'evil' and that this "false antichrist" will be generally identified with the Antichrist of the prophecy. The real Antichrist will then appear and defeat the false antichrist and will thus appear to fulfill the expectations of the real Christ. In this manner, by defeating the false antichrist, the real Antichrist can appear in the world and be hailed as Christ himself.

How can this be? we may think - but remember that the deception of the devil will become so strong that even the elect may be deceived. It is, I think, a process of deception that has been developing since the defeat of the devil by Christ which also involves the events of the history of the Church and the general animosity of the powerful of the world (the west) towards the Orthodox Christian nations. I suppose I could go on for a long time describing various indications of this long laid plan which is coming closer to fruition as we live in this century - but when you begin to look at world events with the assumption that it is all designed to lead up to the antichrist, well so many things become obvious. (so I'll leave it all to your own fevered paranoid conspiracy theory prone imaginations) Just remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you! (OK that last bit was not serious)

Fr David MOser

[Andreas Moran]

Fr David, your blessing!
Is there a source for this? There have been passing references to conspiracy theories occasionally in this forum. It's not easy to talk about 'conspiracies': people dismiss them out of hand, take a middle way, or indeed see them in everything and become unhealthily preoccupied with them. I know of only one proven (to me) matter which would come within the scope of a conspiracy (the deposing of Patriarch Maximos). I think we have to accept, as you indicate, that Antichrist will appear and will wield enormous power and influence. We understand that he will be a man, not divine in any sense, but with the support of the devil. Antichrist will only be able to deceive if people have already been subjected to such a long and sustained process of deception (the incremental progress as I have called it) that the final deception(s) will be easy. People will have lost all sense of the real existence of evil. To attain such power, Antichrist must have allies, people who have prepared the way for him by this incremental progress (Antijohn, if you will). There are very rich and powerful men in the world. It would be surprising if they did not use their wealth and power to steer events in the world to their advantage. Are these men benign? Given the nature of events as they happen in the world, one would think not. So far so good, I presume. Are these men conspiring to create the conditions for the advent of Antichrist? Some may just be very greedy or power-drunk. Others? This the point at which people differ, I guess. I think the middle way seems right - Christ Himself tells us to watch out but at the same time we should attend to ourselves and our salvation daily.


the general animosity of the powerful of the world (the west) towards the Orthodox Christian nations.

One thinks of the illegal bombing of Serbia by America and Britain in Spring 1999. On 11 April, Pascha, American aircrews chalked on their bombs, 'Happy Easter'. My friends in Belgrade were unable to go to church that Pascha because of the bombing. The Allies dropped 20,000 bombs including some with depleted uranium and cluster bombs. This in support of KLA Islamic separatists. Blair said, 'war can be necessary sometimes to uphold civilisation, and this one was'.

[Father David Moser]

Fr David, your blessing!
Is there a source for this? ... I think we have to accept, as you indicate, that Antichrist will appear and will wield enormous power and influence. We understand that he will be a man, not divine in any sense, but with the support of the devil. Antichrist will only be able to deceive if people have already been subjected to such a long and sustained process of deception (the incremental progress as I have called it) that the final deception(s) will be easy. People will have lost all sense of the real existence of evil. To attain such power, Antichrist must have allies, people who have prepared the way for him by this incremental progress (Antijohn, if you will). There are very rich and powerful men in the world. It would be surprising if they did not use their wealth and power to steer events in the world to their advantage. ... Are these men conspiring to create the conditions for the advent of Antichrist?

The only source that I know of is my own fevered paranoid conspiracy theory besotted imagination. Having been in an evangelical protestant church growing up that was heavily into the interpretation of prophecy and all the end times stuff, I think that this is the only way the antichrist will be able to maintain the deception and ascend to power.

I do not think that there is anyone who is consciously, purposefully "preparing the way" for the antichrist. Most of these men you mention think they are doing good and think that they are preventing evil in the world - its just that the deception is so prevalent today. Its not for nothing that the rise of this attitude came as the result of two world wars and the rise of the US as the "world superpower" - that is after the last obstacle, the "one who restrains" (the last ruling Orthodox emperor) was removed.

But then I'm just a feverish paranoid conspiracy theorist...

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

I do not think that there is anyone who is consciously, purposefully "preparing the way" for the antichrist.

Probably not.


Most of these men you mention think they are doing good and think that they are preventing evil in the world

I can't attribute such benevolence to them. They make money out of war and chaos, both of which they contrive. They also make money by creating an ever-more frenzied consumerism.

[Paul Cowan]

Antichrist will only be able to deceive if people have already been subjected to such a long and sustained process of deception (the incremental progress as I have called it) that the final deception(s) will be easy. People will have lost all sense of the real existence of evil. To attain such power, Antichrist must have allies, people who have prepared the way for him by this incremental progress (Antijohn, if you will).

Yes, you are quite right Andreas. It is called the media. Namely Hollywood, but ALL media. How decensitized we have become to the pain of others from all the sensationalism we are subjected to.

Paul

[Nina]

It is called the media. Namely Hollywood, but ALL media.
Paul


A word needs to be said about films, which also compose the atmosphere surrounding children's play. The top money-making films today focus on the preternatural manifestations of the kingdom of darkness. Designed for adults were such films as Rosemary's Baby, The Exorcist, Omen, and Poltergeist: for children, the Star Wars Trilogy (http://www.new-ostrog.org/starwars.html), E.T., Ghostbusters, and Gremlins. The Star Wars Trilogy, since it first appeared in 1977, has generated sales from Star Wars licensed products (i.e. primarily toys) of $3 billion! [5] George Lucas, the producer of Star Wars, admits being strongly influenced by Carlos Castaneda's Tales of Power—a cult book of the 1960's and 70's which chronicles the (what many thought to be true) story of Don Juan, a Mexican Indian sorcerer. Furthermore, Star Wars introduced many viewers to Zen Buddhism through the characters of Yoda, known as "Zen Master." Yoda taught Luke Skywalker, a type of Buddhist monk, about the "everpresent Force"—a term used in witchcraft down through the ages to describe the power witches receive from Satan! Lucas himself has said, "People in the film industry don't want to accept their responsibility that they had a hand in a way the world is loused up. But for better or for worse, the influence of the Church, which used to be all-powerful, has been usurped by film. Films and T.V. tell us the way we conduct our lives, what is right and wrong."

Offend not these little ones: On toys and children (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/toys.aspx)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Fr David, your blessing!
Is there a source for this? There have been passing references to conspiracy theories occasionally in this forum. It's not easy to talk about 'conspiracies': people dismiss them out of hand, take a middle way, or indeed see them in everything and become unhealthily preoccupied with them. I know of only one proven (to me) matter which would come within the scope of a conspiracy (the deposing of Patriarch Maximos). I think we have to accept, as you indicate, that Antichrist will appear and will wield enormous power and influence. We understand that he will be a man, not divine in any sense, but with the support of the devil. Antichrist will only be able to deceive if people have already been subjected to such a long and sustained process of deception (the incremental progress as I have called it) that the final deception(s) will be easy. People will have lost all sense of the real existence of evil. To attain such power, Antichrist must have allies, people who have prepared the way for him by this incremental progress (Antijohn, if you will). There are very rich and powerful men in the world. It would be surprising if they did not use their wealth and power to steer events in the world to their advantage. Are these men benign? Given the nature of events as they happen in the world, one would think not. So far so good, I presume. Are these men conspiring to create the conditions for the advent of Antichrist? Some may just be very greedy or power-drunk. Others? This the point at which people differ, I guess. I think the middle way seems right - Christ Himself tells us to watch out but at the same time we should attend to ourselves and our salvation daily.



One thinks of the illegal bombing of Serbia by America and Britain in Spring 1999. On 11 April, Pascha, American aircrews chalked on their bombs, 'Happy Easter'. My friends in Belgrade were unable to go to church that Pascha because of the bombing. The Allies dropped 20,000 bombs including some with depleted uranium and cluster bombs. This in support of KLA Islamic separatists. Blair said, 'war can be necessary sometimes to uphold civilisation, and this one was'.

Andreas, could you post a link to the prophecy you mentioned by St. Anthony?


As I have already mentioned two or three times already (please forgive me) I have just finished the biography of St. Nektarios. In it he says something that I found very true : He wanted to start a school for girls that would give them a solid base of belief in Orthodoxy. Only in this way, he said, could we overcome the disbelief that was rampant in the early 20th century in Greece.
People, especially university students (the leaders of tomorrow) were enthused about the new century and all the scientific breakthroughs that were starting. Their new god was science.
St. Nektarios believed that these girls, on becoming mothers would educate a new generation of children on Orthodoxy and its beauty. As generation followed generation this intimate knowledge would spread throughout our society. This could only be good for our country, because even back then St. Nektarios believed that Orthodoxy was being attacked. He was incidentally a very highly educated man and wrote in several languages.

If anyone is interested I can find the specific passage and post it.

Effie

[Andreas Moran]

Andreas, could you post a link to the prophecy you mentioned by St. Anthony?

I mis-remembered it but the sense is the same. Abba Anthony said, 'a time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.' Saying 25, Sayings of the Desert Fathers. I think this is generally thought to refer to Christians and the rest in the last times.