Why does the devil exist?

[Olympiada]

Dear Friends,

God created the devil by casting him out of heaven. God is in control. Why did God create the devil? Why does he allow him to exist? Why did God not destroy Lucifer when he disobeyed God. Why did he allow him and his minions to be cast into hell and stay there forever? Why does God allow hell to exist?

These are big questions and I need big answers. Patristic references please.

In Christ
Olympiada

[Trudy]

God created the devil by casting him out of heaven.

Really? I've never heard this before! I thought Lucifer cast himself out of heaven by his rebellion against God. Would that be similar to how Adam and Even were cast out of the Garden by their rebellion against God?

These are not patristic references, but it would seem that God didn't destroy Lucifer when he disobeyed God for the same reason God doesn't destroy us when we disobey Him...Love.

And isn't hell not a location but being in God's Presence but unable to experience/receive His Love?

Sorry to add more questions than answers. Looking forward to reading responses from those better read than I.

Warmly, Athanasia

[M.C. Steenberg]

From the messages above:


God created the devil by casting him out of heaven. God is in control. Why did God create the devil? Why does he allow him to exist? Why did God not destroy Lucifer when he disobeyed God. Why did he allow him and his minions to be cast into hell and stay there forever? Why does God allow hell to exist?

The fathers are quite clear that God did not create the devil as devil, but as angel; i.e., as good creature, for all the God creates (and God creates all) is good. That this angel rebelled (and many fathers -- e.g. Irenaeus -- point out that 'Satan' means 'adversary' and 'rebel') was not the act or will of God, for God desires no evil. Freedom of act is precisely that: freedom.

The urge is to claim that since 'God is in control', he must have in some sense willed or wanted that this angel should rebel. But the fathers are firm: God does not will evil, nor does God's providence equate to a simple belief that God wants to happen all that does happen in the cosmos. Sin is always that which God does not desire for his creation. It is redemption that remains always in his control and power -- no sin is able to remove from God the power to redeem his handiwork.

Starting points in the fathers for reflections on these questions are strong in the early period: Justin's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Irenaeus' Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, Theophilus of Antioch's To Autolycus. All are available via links in the patristics master list (http://www.monachos.net/patristics/sources.shtml).

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Good morning Dr. Steenberg

It is obvious we are having a miscommunication again. Perhaps you are just too educated for me? Or is it a male intellect/female intellect thing? I don't know. There is a book called "You Just Don't Understand" about men and women in communication...

I know that God did not want Lucifer to rebel. What I mean is why did God continue to allow Satan to exist to torment humanity? That is my question. Will your links answer this question?
I will check them as I am able. Thank you.

INXC
Ms. Kane

[Aestro]

God took a risk. I for one am glad.

Its our forgetful nature, Such a blessing in this world!, Thats misused. The God of the Christians is not an angry father or a worried mother. Ever youthful courage, fearless love. Could all risk be secure? We know already.

[Olympiada]

Aestro,
Are you a star?
God took a risk, eh? Never heard that before. Where did you get that idea?

[Paul Cowan]

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”[c]
29 But when she saw him,[d] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

God took a chance. Mary could have said NO. Where would we be then with no savior? It s not as the protestants believe that He could have just gone to the next house and picked another virgin. It had to be this particular virgin as all of time was focusing in on her specifically. She from all the women from all time was the only one that could be asked. Luckily for us, she said yes. Yes, God took a chance.

Paul

[David Hawthorne]

Lucifer exists because God loves him; the devil exists because he made himself so.

[Mikhail Kolitwenzew]

Really? I've never heard this before! I thought Lucifer cast himself out of heaven by his rebellion against God. Would that be similar to how Adam and Even were cast out of the Garden by their rebellion against God?


Warmly, Athanasia


I have read from one of the Church Fathers (I don't have the book at the time), that Lucifer was actually cast out by the will of Michael the Archangel... Michael and his angels could not stand the pride of the devil.

Interpreting the verse:
Revelation 12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



Maybe God wanted there to be a struggle, to see who loves Him the most. In this book, the saint basically tells us this: http://www.amazon.com/Little-Russian-Philokalia-Theodore-Sanaxar/dp/0938635344

But listen to what the Divine Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 9:24-25:

9:24: Do you not know that all the ones running in the stadium, all indeed run, but one receives the prize? Thus you run that you should overtake!
25: But everyone struggling, in all things controls himself; that indeed then that a corruptible crown they should receive, but we an incorruptible crown.
26: I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so I box, as not flaying the air.
27: But I bruise my body, and bring it into slavery, lest to others having proclaimed, I myself should be debased.

This verse of the Bible was taken from the Septuagint version, the codex vaticanus (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Codex_Vaticanus). Its called the Apostolic Bible (http://apostolicbible.com/) - By Charles VanderPool




So the Apostle is telling us that its a race, or a competition.





The Bible has the answers, we just have to ask God to help us understand it.


I think it would be wise to listen to what St David says:
Psalm 131

1Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
2Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.
3Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.


Truly, pondering on these sort of high things can be very dangerous. People can fall into heresy, and end up losing their faith altogether.

Thomas Hopko has some talks online about these sorts of questions which can be quite helpful.

Here (http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/theological_reflections_on_calamity) is one of them.



Listen to this priest on the fear of God (http://www.pantocrator.net/en/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=244):

The priest has the blessing of Bishop Maximos (http://www.saintnicodemos.org/articles/blessingsofmaximos.php) to teach.


I think God created hell because people has free will and a conscience. The conscience is, as the Fathers say, the natural law, it is the law written on our hearts by God. I've heard the conscience also be called a 'prophet' as well.

God doesn't want people to be evil, or do evil and wicked deeds. So I guess that's why He made hell. Because its a very unnatural thing.

I call it a horrible mistake. The devil made a huge mistake. Adam and Eve made a huge mistake.
The Fall of God-created beings is a tragedy... Pride is a horrible thing.

All because they had free-will.

The devil had a free-will.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God. God said, 'Don't you dare' But they wanted to obey a stinking serpent, because they thought they would, 'be as God's, knowing good from evil'



In Christ


Dear Friends,

God created the devil by casting him out of heaven. God is in control. Why did God create the devil? Why does he allow him to exist? Why did God not destroy Lucifer when he disobeyed God. Why did he allow him and his minions to be cast into hell and stay there forever? Why does God allow hell to exist?

These are big questions and I need big answers. Patristic references please.

In Christ
Olympiada


Read Romans and Isaiah:

Rom. 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom. 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom. 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom. 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom. 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom. 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom. 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom. 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom. 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom. 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom. 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom. 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom. 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Isaiah. 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Is. 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

[Jan Sunqvist]

I'm sure this is considered heretical, but I would very much be helped if I can be shown if and how holding the following views of the devil is dangerous.

I"m copying the next 2 paragraphs from the from wikipedia article on Satan (hence the unreliability of the sources), but I have come across such ideas before...

"In the book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan ("the accuser") is the title of an angel submitted to God. In Judaism ha-satan does not make evil, rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind. In essence ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things. After God places a wager with Satan about Job's piety, God gives "ha-satan" permission to test the faith of Job. The righteous man is afflicted with loss of family, property, and later, health, but he still stays faithful to God. At the conclusion of this book God appears in a whirlwind, explaining to all that divine justice is inscrutable. In the epilogue Job's possessions are restored and he has a second family to replace the one that died."

"In Kabbalistic literature and its derivative, Hasidic literature, the Satan is seen as an agent of God whose job is to tempt one into sin, and then turn around and accuse the sinner on high. An additional understanding of Satan is from a parable to a prostitute who is hired by the King (God) to tempt his son (a Jew). The prostitute has to do the best she can to tempt the son; but deep down she hopes the son will pass the test. Similarly, Kabbalistic/Hasidic thought sees the Satan in the same situation. His job is to tempt us as best he can; turn around and accuse us; but deep down his wish is that we would resist his blandishments."