Committing sin, repentance and confession

[Pavs]

Dear Brothers Sisters,

This is probably not the place to start a repentance but here goes.

Unfortunately I have done somethings which I have always had a weakness for and have a number of times confessed hoping and thinking I would get over it. I have even prayed to get over it.

Unfortunately once in a while (almost yearly) I collapse and re-committ which I guess makes me upset as it does now.

For reasons beyond this post I should no much better. Even people who know me think I am a much better person than I actually am.

I know that there are saints who spent years getting over certain passions however that doesen't help when I consider how bad I feel.

My priest was not too impressed last time (I why should he) however I guess the flip side is God would be even less impressed and most certainly already knows.

I guess this post is about reapproachment with God and myself and working out a way to outlast temptation that draws me into this particular sin.

Sometimes the temptation I can deflect however it gets stronger and stronger until it breaks me.

I know it is written that temptation is allowed by god to test a person. However I cannot understand how am I meant to resist when at a certain point I am just too weak. Its feels almost like standing in the surf and being hit by waves. You handle the first few until a huge one comes along and knocks you over.

I know that it is written that one must always think they are the greatest sinner and sure we sometimes relationalise hey i didn't murder anyone, I don't steal and etc so how can I be the worst. However now I really feel that I am the worst or worst and extreme mercy is needed.

I sometimes wonder (more likely incorrectly) why does God allows such strong temptations when I know myself I can't handle it. Not at the level where it breaks me.

These are all my thoughts that I am trying to come to grips with along with my current extreme sinfulness.

Have Mercy On Me

[Owen Jones]

Dear Pavs,

There are at least two kinds of sins. One kind is an obvious sin of moral, willfull disobedience. Lying, cheating and stealing would be examples. The other kind is more ingrained, the product of a mental obssession. With the first kind, we can come to moral clarity, feel ashamed for our sins, repent, and go forward with a strengthened moral awareness and will. The second kind is more lasting and insidious, of the type St. Paul refers to as his thorn in the flesh. It's sounds like you are referring to something more like the latter. So when all of the obvious work has been done, and we still relapse into this state, I have found great power in meditation using the Jesus Prayer. Sit still and say the prayer five hundred times, slowly, with feeling, quietly. Do that each day for a month and then report back.

Seraphim

(hint -- you probably won't be able to do it at first -- but try to add to it just a little bit each day. Do not allow yourself to be defeated).

[sinjin smithe]

Dear Pavs,
You are not alone. I myself am battling a thorn in my flesh. Sometimes I find the temptations overwhelming to me. My priest tells me to repent and keep getting back up each time that I fall.

I sometimes wonder (more likely incorrectly) why does God allows such strong temptations when I know myself I can't handle it. Not at the level where it breaks me.

I wonder the same question as you do. Why does God do this?

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Pavs & Sinjin

I; before converting to Orthodoxy, had been a Christian for a lot of years. However after converting I asked our liason, "O.k. now that we're Orthodox, what now?" His reply, "It gets harder!"

As a Protestant I cannot tell you how many times I heard "..There is no temptation overtaken you but such is common to man. God will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will make a way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." The story is told of a man who struggled with sexual lusts, so to avoid feeding that appetite, he would not go by the magazine rack when in the grocery store.
Bob Carlisle; a Contemory Christian music artist, did a followup to his immensely popular Butterfly Kisses. Before the song he told the story of a peasant farmer and a monk. The farmer struggling to feed his family through the selling of his vegetables in the town market, had to pass a monastery. After one hard year, unable to comprehend the smiling monk, he stopped. He briefly explained his situation to the monk, and then asked how even when everyone had it tough, the monk was able to smile. The peasant was taken inside the monastery and shown all that was there, and then was told the key to their happiness; "We fall down, we get up, we fall down we get up. A saint is just a sinner, we..."

I have never been as aware of how far short I am of the holiness that God requires
(harmatia-sin-missing the mark), as I have been since converting to Holy Orthodoxy. So I agonize over my sin and implore the Lord to have mercy on me, for the remaining time I have upon the earth. And, I ask my name saint to interceed for me.

Another story: A man was sitting on a bench waiting for his bus, when an angel sat beside him saying that his prayers were heard, and he(the angel )was there to help him. The angel asked the man who he was, and the man responded with his name and company position. The angel shook his head, "No, I asked who are you?" This went on for several minutes until the man broken and in tears confessed, "I don't know who I am." The angel said, "Good, now we can start."

The unworthy servant
moses

[Donald Wescott]

Pavs and All,

While I agree with Owen in that the Jesus prayer can be a tremendously effective help against temptation, my caution is that serious practice of the same should take place under the guidance and direction of one's spiritual father.

Under His Mercy,
Donald eusebios

[Richard McBride]

Concerning Being Sorry for One’s Self:

“When you are lamenting your sins, do not ever admit that cur which suggest that God is soft-hearted toward men.” But then John (Climacus) of the Ladder adds:
“Such a notion may on occasion be of help to you when you see yourself being dragged down into deep despair.”
from Step 6
Thanatos
The Ladder of Divine Ascent

Then, Concerning Despair:

“Even if your are not what you should be, your should not despair. It is bad enough that you have sinned; why in addition do you wrong God by regarding Him in your ignorance [i.e. double mindedness] as powerless?”
Saint Peter of Damaskos; from the section titled:
“That We Should Not Despair Even If We Sin Many Times”
The Philokalia
Vol.3; p.160

As for training one’s self to be shed of their passions, John Climacus agrees with so many desert Fathers who say:
“If your remebrance of death is clear and specific, you will cut down on your eating; and if, in your humility, you reduce the amount you eat, your passions will be correspondingly reduced.”

And this recommendation, to contemplate one’s own death daily, and thus reduce one’s intake of food, is more difficult for us, it would seem, than simply being shed of the passions. Yet, a sinner is unlikely to conquer the passions in any other way -- unless that sinner be lifted up and beyond the miserable pail of passion by the special Grace of the Lord.

richard

[Bob Nicholas]

Pavs,

I sympathize with you. You are not alone, whatever your sins are.

With love,

Bob

[Bob Nicholas]

Pavs,

Correction: I empathize with you.

With love,
Bob

additional words here to make sure I have the minimun nine for a post. Errrrrrrrrrrrr!

[Emily Telner]

And this recommendation, to contemplate one’s own death daily, and thus reduce one’s intake of food, is more difficult for us, it would seem, than simply being shed of the passions. Yet, a sinner is unlikely to conquer the passions in any other way -- unless that sinner be lifted up and beyond the miserable pail of passion by the special Grace of the Lord.

Could someone give some more references about "contemplating your death daily"? I am confused about this issue. I have always been a little bit uncomfortable with it, even though a certain part of me seems to naturally know that it is true.

Thank you. Emily.

[Justin]

Emily,

I know you didn't ask the question of me, so this isn't really a response, but I did want to bring this page (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/memory_death.htm) to your attention which goes over this subject briefly.

[Reader]

Dear Emily: this isn't a quote from the fathers of the church, but a modern quotation that seems to reflect what they say about the remembrance of death (accidentally, I'm sure!!). It was in an old edition of a Minnesota newspaper:

If I had my life over again I should form the habit of nightly composing myself to thoughts of death. I would practice, as it were, the remembrance of death. There is no other practice which so intensifies life. Death, when it approaches, ought not to take one by surprise. It should be part of the full expectancy of life."
-- from "Memento Mori," by Muriel Spark

[Pamela Hristov]

I think that temptation is put before us to build our spiritual strength.

[Jeff_Beranek]

He [Anthony the Great] also said, 'Whoever has not experienced temptation, cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.' He even added, 'Without temptations on-one can be saved.'

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

i have found the my experience of living in sin without exception, leads to spiritual turmoil. i too have tried to follow the trends of the world, by having different girlfreinds from time to time, having sex out of wed lock etc, etc

i can honestly testify that all these experiences, although momentarily pleasant at times, caused me spiritual disruption, anxiety and confusion. if often made me wonder, how people in today's society live their whole life time, in de facto relationships, form partner to partner, in open marriages(whereby they still date others, and have sex with others) can maintain any sanity at all??? it dumbfounds me.

any thoughts...

[Owen Jones]

What has always dumfounded me, Andonis, is that people actually think that sex will make them happy. As for the Church, the desert fathers speak frequently of eros as intense spiritual longing. The erotic drive in us gets confused and disoriented and directed toward the wrong target. But here's the brutal fact: you have to want God more than you want physical stuff. Only you can make that decision.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

Owen, could you elaborate more on how the erotic spiritual longing should be expressed and targeted, so that it is in line with God's will..

[Owen Jones]

Pray and meditate. Become still and quiet inside.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

that sounds easy enough. prayer and meditation have become my favourite passtime. but i wonder if such inactivity, to sit still and contemplate is really what God wants? it feels too easy to do, when we could for instance be helping mankind with more manual labour of some sort. i mean, where would the world be in terms of modern medicine, research etc, etc if it was full of orthodox christians whom like to sit still and meditate all the time. no doubt it would be a more morally healthy world, but one without a lot of modern inventions ie car, plane, computer, which the creation of requires time and dedication. personally i'd give the automobile, the airoplane, and any modern invention away, for a healthier and closer to God community...any thoughts?

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Andonis,

The epistle to the Romans has a well known passage which includes these words: "for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened...and since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done."(Rom.1:21,28) Such people have been blinded by the devil, their minds have become seared, and they just 'don't know any better'.

Summer time is a notorious time for temptations of a sexual nature, since women wear such abbreviated clothing(and sometimes men also). I catch myself more often than should happen for a Christian; and, as Owen posted I pray asking the Theotokos and my name saint(Moses, prophet and God seer of Israel), and Moses of Ethiopia to interceed for me that I would look at women as God made them, not as an object of my sexual lusts, and that I would know victory over the passions.

Apparently this will go for the rest of my life. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner!

the unworthy servant

[Moses Anthony]

Forgive me for not posting this along with the above part tof my post.
The two servants who received talents, had one obligation, DO SOMETHING WITH THEM. In other words, the one who did nothing(sat around and meditated)was condemned by his master. Any gift or ability is from God who expects us do use that ability for the glory of his kingdom. What God wants is for us to be obedient to whatever He says to each of us (that could be sit and contemplate for some).

[Owen Jones]

It is absolutely absurd to equate "sitting around and meditating" with the parable of the talents. The parable is about the Jews having squandered God's spiritual bequest to them. they have turned the commandments into a burden and a curse, not a blessing. It has become a yoke around people's neck, designed to keep them under the thumb of the religious authorities, rather than setting their souls free.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

the most difficult thing is tapping into exactly what God does want you to do? how can one measure to what degree he has become a victim of modernity, how much he should change and sacrifice in order to live a trully ascetic life. these are gigantic questions i stuggle with daily. sometimes i think as long as you live in the world you will struggle with asceticism because it goes against the trend of modern times. maybe seperation from the world, as in monasticism is the only way to acheive true asceticism. without the burden of a corrupt society whom appears to be there only to tempt you and defile you, or take away your dignity. being an orthodox christian is no doubt the narrower path, it can feel extremely lonely at times...

[Owen Jones]

So stop dealing with gigantic questions.

[sinjin smithe]

Andonis you said something that was so true being an orthodox christian is no doubt the narrower path, it can feel extremely lonely at times... Boy it is extremely lonely at times especially as a young person.

[Owen Jones]

A certain amount of alienation is a natural thing. If I am completely comfortable and at home in the world then there is probably something wrong with me. But it seems to me that if faith is worth anything at all, it should conquer loneliness. So if a Christian whines and complains about being lonely, there is something that he simply is not doing that he should be doing in his life. Either his prayer life is infantile and self-centered, or he is engaging in some kind of sin that is alienating him from God and prevents him from feeling His presence.

[Moses Anthony]

The last line of my post read; "What God wants is for of us to be obedient to whatever He says to each of us (for some that could be , sit and meditate)".

The basic idea is to do whatever God says, therefore if God has not said to you "sit and meditate" then you're squandering the talents you've been given if you give your time to that activity.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. It should be evident by now my attitude towards contemplation, which is in no way a slap in the face of monastics. Words, and especially those conveyed over the internet, are often inadequate in conveying the heart of a persons thoughts, as the moderator has so ably wrote.

By the way, there are those who for one reason or another consider 'sitting around and meditating ' as doing nothing.

[Moses Anthony]

Andonis, (Owen too),

When Lot separated from Abraham he looked on the plains of Sodom and Gomorrah, and being a herdsman, he settled there. It later says that while he lived in Sodom his "righteous soul was vexed". You ask Andonis "how one measures the degree to which he has accepted the modernity of the world". How vexed is your soul at abortion, adultery, defamination of godly people, indifference to God, anger, wrath, malice, unkindness, lack of compassion, hospitality, etc., etc., etc. Another way of saying it is, are you greived at what greives the heart of God?

What and how much should you sacrifice, this depends upon what God says to you through your time with Him, or through your priest or spiritual father.

the unworthy servant

[sinjin smithe]

Owen how can you say that faith conquers loneliness? I understand that God is always with us and so we are never alone, but loneliness can result from lack of friends and/or lack of a significant other such as a wife or girlfriend. I think it is natural to desire to have friends and a someone special. To put it bluntly, I know God is always with us but we need people friends too.

[Owen Jones]

Why? ... ...

[sinjin smithe]

I don't quite understand your terse question...so please forgive me I misinterpret your short question. I have had always had a desire to be with people. I guess you are saying that human friendships are meaningless and have little value and to instead place all of our stock in God. Are saying that human friendships will fail us so instead we should have a relationship God..that if we have a relationship with him we will not feel lonely? All that I am saying is that we need human relationships also but I don't think that you will agree with me.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

dear sinjin and Owen,

thank you both for your spirited commentary, which i'm sure is being done in the context of brotherly Christian love. i see validity in both what your saying. Owen, at present i agree with you that my current situation ie, living like i'm married with my girlfreind out of wedlock i feel has alienated me from God. God knows that i partake in this relationship in full awareness that it constitutes a lot of sin. since the beginning of this relationship, i have suffered sadness, anxiety, darkness of spirit and all that is to be without God. i guess, i tried to get away with it in a way, using love (which could be lust, and vainglory disguised as love) to justify my transgressions. prior to this relationship i remember reaching a state of immense comfort and satisfaction in being alone to meditate and contemplate. it was truly a more ascetic existence whereby i worked hard during the day, and read and prayed at night. and i basked in the warmth of God's approval and love, which in comparison does make human freindships seem futile and insignificant.
which brings me to the point that sinjin raised. having experienced a close relationship to God, human freindships do pale into insignificance. this is because human freindships are inevitably tainted by depthless human emotions at some point. i have often found myself thinking that i would sooner be alone with God, than a human being whom lacks righteousness in thought and action. and because this is becoming all the more rare in society, isolation is inevitable. i know people have often commented that they think i'm becoming more and more antisocial. i feel that this is not because i don't love and want what is best for people, its just that idle chat and empty forms of entertainment cease to impress me.

i feel i know what i have to do to restore my relationship to God, but at present i lack the strength. furthermore it amazes me that my girlfreind is able to function with less spiritual turmoil than myself. i am building up the courage, because i am finding it too heavy a burden spiritually to live this way.

may God, and you Christian brothers, continue to have enough patience and insightful replies, for a Christian whom is currently lacking in strength.

[Richard McBride]

All the fun's in the big ones, Serphim. No one expects to solve them.
Where you mess up is dealing only in the stuff at hand. With such myopic vision you're always being blind-sided.
But if the big one's make your head ache, then don't read my stuff -- and I'll say a prayer for your headache.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

broaden my vision, what am i blind too...???

[Owen Jones]

I'm not sure about this relationship with God business. That's pretty much an innovation of 20th Century American protestantism which has psychologized God. What I know is that if one prays and meditates and follows the commandments, there is no need to be lonely. Good human relationships are fortunate to have, but there are many testimonies in Scripture and Tradition about problems with relying too much on this. Do not rely on men or horses.

Christ had his mother with him and one friend, at the hour of his greatest need. WE should all be so lucky.

[Justin]

I think it is only the terminology ("relationship") that is new, not the concept. Orthodoxy has a long history of baptizing words and making them her own; I see no problem with doing that in this case as well. (so long as we understand the unique dynamics of the "relationship")

[Owen Jones]

There is a substantial difference between the contemporary protestant sloganeering regarding "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" and the classical tradition of eucharistic communion and participation in the Godhead. First, the contemporary understanding of the personal is a psychologized and reductionistic view of the classical persona as used in the Chalcedonian definition. It reduces the "relationship" to that between a subject (human person) and object (God) while eclipsing the in-between reality (metaxy). It is a theological version of Newtonian physics. It is also heretical in that it reduces the Church to a Jesus cult. It simply does not know what to do with the Trinity. Which is why Pentacostalism then springs up. But almost no contemporary Christianity recognizes the transcendence of the Father, his unknowability. As Hegel said, the Protestant principle is when the mind of man and the mind of God have become one. It is good to have a friend in Jesus, but contemporary protestantism maintains the bogus assertion that God is like a familiar pal who entertains us from time to time with his magic tricks.

So for these and other reasons best enumerated by someone with better theological training than I have, I think there are strong reasons for an Orthodox Christian to avoid the "personal relationship" business like the plague, and really begin to apply some traditional wisdom.

We've had some recent discussions about the meditative/contemplative tradition, which is totally anathema to modern Christians, including many Orthodox. But this in my mind is surely a better alternative to the personal relationship stuff.

As for loneliness, the problem which has occasioned this discussion, I think every Orthodox Christian needs to learn what it means to be in solitude, in the desert, whatever metaphor you choose, because that is what our Master went through and we are commanded to live as he lived to at least some degree. What we find is that when we force ourselves to experience the terror of solitude it becomes our best friend, and we no longer have an unhealthy dependency on other people. In short, whatever our circumstances, we are never alone. But try telling someone to sit still and quiet for one hour and recite the Jesus Prayer, or the Lord's Prayer, or some other brief passage from Scripture. They would rather have bamboo shoots placed under their fingernails.

Most contemporary Orthodox and converts especially talk a lot about Orthodoxy as a community, a culture, and rant against individualism, whatever that means. But the true meaning of Christ is found in solitude and that is the most powerful dimension of our tradition. It's the essence of Christian freedom. It is the basis of casting out demons. It is the antithesis of the demonic spirit of activism that plagues the world in "modernity." As Blaise Pascal said, "the greatest cause of evil in the world is the inability of a man to sit quietly alone in his own room."

Of course, all of these ideas, it goes without saying, are enunciated by the chief of sinners.

[Justin]

Owen, should the Council of Nicea have avoided the word homoousion as well? Was it not condemned beforehand because of it's usage by heretics? And yet it was baptized and used to define Christian truth... it became a cornerstone of Orthodox theological language. How many other words did the Fathers "borrow" and baptize from other sources, totally changing their meaning? Of course I do not think we should accept the Protestant content, but I do not understand why we cannot adopt their language to better articulate our position. We should say:

"You say you must have relationship with God. It is this relationship I wish to talk to you about..."

Paul didn't say "You dense idiots, you must call God Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!" He led them slowly into the truth, and did not abruptly change language, but instead eased in new content. (Acts 17:22-33)

[Owen Jones]

I was referring to a specific case of specific use of words that I believe really do mean something specific and are important and make a difference. I was not speaking in terms of absolutes. It always strikes me as interesting when a specific point is made and in response it is absolutized as a means of knocking it down. That's pretty poor reasoning. Pretty poor logic. I'll stand by my argument in this particular case, but not refute your general point. I just don't think it applies in this particular case.

We've had the same go around regarding monasticism. When somebody describes monasticism as a higher path toward perfection, someone inevitably comes back and says, "you mean no one but monastics can attain perfection!!!!" Of course not. There is a very specific term for this kind of absolutized religious thinking.

[Moses Anthony]

Owen, Sinjin, Andonis,

When I was in the military I sat on a bus on my way back to base. At the time I was overseas. My prayer went something like this: "God I know that Jesus is all I need, but I'd like someone to share my life with, a wife." God's answer- yes I'm sure it was God- "This day I've prepared a wife for thee." That little prayer session was in 1972, my wife and I were married in 1977.

It was hard enough being a Black pagan, but imagine what it was like to be shunned socially by those who supposedly knew Christ. Unless I've missed something over the years, in reading Scripture, not Jung, Freud, or anyoue but God said, "It is not good that man should be alone, I will make a helpmeet for him." It should be noted that God said this BEFORE the fall of Adam and Eve.

We were created for companionship; first of all, with God our Creator and then with our fellowman. If people are not needed, then we do not live in community either as monastics or otherwise.

God is the husbandman, He is our Father, the friend sticking closer than a brother. But notice, the Orthodox sacrement of marriage began in the Garden of Eden, because God said it was not good for man to be alone!

Scientists and men of medicine have yet to figure out exactly what causes depression, but this I know,an overwhelming sense of lonliness does not help. Yes, human friends are not the panacea to our relationship problems; however, for those who do not have the gift to be as the Apostle Paul-traveling with a close group of confidants, though unmarried- it is better for them than to burn.

Please forgive me if there is an angry tone whatsoever, but since I've struggled with this problem, and am trying to help guide my son through the same thing, it's a little personal.

the unworthy servant

[Justin]

Then I suppose we disagree, Owen, as I think this is an instance when such an allowance is most needed. If I speak of "relationship" and fill it with Orthodox content, it might seem strange to someone, though they might listen. If I try to talk to my (nominal catholic) dad and say "How much do you know about the process and concept of deification?" he's gonna shake his head and say "I'm not going to discuss whatever you're talking about. Whatever deification is, I don't know."

I'm sorry that you got the idea that I was absolutizing, I misled you on that somewhere along the way.

[Owen Jones]

If you are talking about evangelizing and proselytizing then, well, I suppose it would be carping to disagree that you need to start with some common language, as was the case at the Aereopagus.

But non-Orthodox Christians, without communion with God, are stranded on earth and in their physical bodies. That's why alienation has been the primary phenomenon in a "post-Catholic" West. The experience of a personal relationship does not compensate for the loss of communion with God.

Unfortunately for many American Orthodox, we are experientially and philsophically protestant and only superficially, ritualistically are we ORthodox.

I also think the best way to proselytize is to point out not the faults of protestants but the even greater blessings offered to us when we can enter into communion with God's very nature. But they have been so propagandized to view communion with God through the eucharist as so much hocus pocus, that it's a hard sell to be sure.

I'm not sure what kind of shortcut you can take to that without cheapening what Christ has offered us. Although they cannot possibly believe what they say they believe and be consistent with Scripture. And that's really the connection. Christ says that unless we eat of His flesh and drink of His blood we will have no life in us. Obviously he is referring to the imparting of the divine spirit in us.

This problem is partly why it has historically been easier to convert pagans, who intrinsically understand the concept of participation in the divine nature, than it has been to convert people who have a kind of literalistic or pharisaical religious dogma that explicitly denies the possibility of participation in the divine nature. Conservative protestants are viscerally opposed to anything that smacks of such mysticism.

The real way to carry the message to Protestants is to live and order our lives dramatically differently. To take up the cross of Christ, to withdraw from the world, to take on voluntarily the cross of virginity and poverty, so that we stand out as something fundamentally different than the world. Some will be attracted and some will be frightened, but the message is in the messenger, and we are, of course, far from conveying that message to the contemporary world. by and large we only have it in books.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

when i referred to building a relationship with God, i would like to make clear i was using general language, probably to illustrate in a more colloquial way the process of deification and becoming one with the God head. it was certainly not meant as a heretical phrase, a relationship which can be nurtured independantly of the church. i know that deification is best fostered within the spirit of the church, to ensure that no false beleifs take root . i also realise, that sin is alienation from the spirit of truth. it feels almost as is if God has turned his back, and allowed you to wallow in a dark abyss.

when i use the word relationship, it is not my wish to try psychologise God, and see him on human terms. a relationship with him, is of a mystical nature that is above and beyond any human relationship, but it is with human relationships that we begin to learn deification of our thoughts and feelings, so that we can better approach God. the more we are deified, the more that is revealed.

i agree with Owen, that in the modern world, many of us orthodox christians can theoretically state how we differ to other dogmas, but often we cannot reflect that in our way of life, which can be similar or identical to that of a Protestant.

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Can I interject at this point an observation derived from my own religious formation (successively in the Church of England and then the RC church) about the immanence of God in each one of us, since we are made in His image? This should inspire Christians of all traditions to seek out and express the higher self in daily life, whether this is spent following the monastic or the secular pathway. And on the question of loneliness, this is to an extent a function of one's (God-given)temperament and the changes wrought by practical experience. Perhaps the secret is as the old adage has it, "be still and know that I am God". Stillness can be achieved, though with some difficulty, in the most crowded of circumstances, including a troubling relationship (I know; I've been there too, Andonis). All you can do is listen to the internal voice of conscience when deciding how to resolve a personal dilemma, and events will often pan out in such a way as to indicate the right exit point. For me right now it is a work situation; for others the debacle will be a matter of relationships. But the essentials are fundamentally driven by the same inner strength; and meditation does help (being alone in one's own space is most salutary). Of course, inevitability plays a part also; Andonis's girlfriend may decide for herself that her needs may be more suitably met elsewhere. Whoever said that the spiritual life was without pain? More particularly is this the case if one's faith is eroded and the light has dimmed. Then you do indeed feel very alone and very small.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi Margaret,
i guess my dilemma at the moment is certainly not fearing being alone. i have experienced the most spiritual peace in my solitude. right now the dilemma is gaining the strength to confess to my girlfreind that based on my current spiritual turmoil, it may be best to seperate. it feels as though one of us must muster the strength to do this. she often expresses that she fears our relationship cannot withstand the rigours of my incessant spiritual searcing. nevertheless she can't enforce a decision either way. it makes me feel that i have the responsibility to make this decision, however painful it will be to both of us. it is only then that i can seek repentance, cleanse my soul, and embark once more on the path to asceticism. God grant me that strength...

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Hello back, Andonis. If I can serve as soul doctor for a moment, might I suggest going on a good spiritual retreat for a few days to "cleanse the system". If you have a spiritual adviser that would be great. And I personally would recommend taking a step out of your regular routine by choosing a Buddhist setting for the retreat, preferably in a beautiful location. There's plenty on offer, at least in the UK. The benefits could include viewing life from a very different but very wise perspective, and giving yourself a break from agonising by means of an inner spring (well, actually autumn) clean. I personally gain much from reading anything by the Dalai Lama, who seems to exude holiness and joy in equal measure; how the world needs both of these qualities!

Yours in friendship,

Margaret the Seeker

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

i appreciate your advice Margaret. i live in Australia where we have plenty of orthodox monasteries. i should seek one out and go there for a spiritual retreat. i'm sure it would be very re-energising and it would give me peace with God to sort myself out. i will speak to my preist tonight, at bible study...

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi Effie,
nice to hear from an Australian Greek. i think its excellent that you have made the move to Greece, how do you find the change? i would love to know...i am from Preston in Melbourne, i'm sure you know the area well.

Effie, i agree with you completely, that as long as you remain pure God reveals more and more his plan and where you fit in. the problem for me, is even though i love and agree with the Orthodox faith, i am struggling to follow its teachings. it sounds hypocritical, i know, and i am trying to change that. i am lacking in purity at the moment because i know that my relationship with my girlfreind out of wedlock is not endorsed by God. especially the intimate side of the relationship. my girlfreind finds the discussions about God and righteousness a little tiring, and she does not feel the guilt that i feel. i guess her experiences in the past, have hurt her and now its as if she has become emotionally numb. i think she has lost faith in the idea of love and marriage and is settling now for modern day de facto types of relationships. she is very attractive which makes me even weaker. i know what steps i have to take, but i currently lack the courage. i wish she would just get fed up with me, and break up with me, and that would make things easier.

Effie i would like to ask you one more question. do you feel now that you are living in Greece that it is easier to live an Orthodox lifestyle? since you are in fact living in a very orthodox country. do people there strive for spiritual purity? as you know living in melbourne, the lifestyle if very much western, and striving for asceticism is definitely not the norm. i would love to hear your opinion on this...

[Thomas Garland]

Andonis,

I admire your struggles over this issue - when I was an Anglican and had a couple of stable (sexual) relationships, one of which turned into (unsuccessful!) marriage, I rather swept the issue under the carpet, telling myself I truly loved the lady concerned, so that was OK. You can convince yourself of anything for your own convenience!

But for me your posts bring up a more general issue about the Orthodox Church's view of non-Orthodox marriage. Does the Church consider people who were married before they became Orthodox as married or not? (So, for example, is someone who was married and divorced as a non-Orthodox considered ever to have been married in the first place?).

In your case, the prevailing view of (non-Orthodox) society is that stable relationships do constitute some sort of marriage. Having lived in Australia myself, I know that 'de facto' relationships there are recognised as having a status in law.

Surely this is a situation similar to what the early Church faced? Many early converts must have been married to non-Christians - or even in some sort of non-married sexual relationship (I don't know the prevailing mores of the Roman Empire in this respect). The people concerned would have had existing responsibilities towards spouses/partners and, even more importantly, towards children.

Surely these people were not condemned as 'fornicators' simply because they continued their existing commitment? So what did 'fornication', as referred to by St Paul and others, actually consist in? Was it any sexual relations with someone you weren't married to, however stable and committed? - in which case, you need to define what the early Church accepted as 'marriage'. Or was it simply sexual promiscuity without any intention of commitment? - in which case, you accept the possibility of non-married relationships.

My impression - not that I could possibly describe myself as a Patristic scholar! - is that the Fathers would have taken the former view, perhaps because they very largely represent an ascetic point of view, and this has become the opinion of the Church at large. But was this the case in apostolic times and shortly afterwards?

Incidentally, earlier posts have referred to the difficulties of living our Orthodox Christianity in the modern world, as a recommendation for the ascetic life. Can I suggest that the modern world is truly our 'Desert', where we can (and should) be engaged in spiritual warfare as much as a traditional ascetic in the 'real' desert'?

with love,

Thomas Garland

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Andonis,

Just before I read the above post by Thomas, the thought of spiritual warfare came to mind concerning Andonis' situation. Satan as an angel of light (easy on the eyes) is not beneath using a beautiful woman/very handsome man to ensnare tempt, or hold back a servant of God from moving forward in their relationship/communion with God! The admonition to "be not unequally yoked holds within it knowledge of the human condition. For, as you Adnonis have said, (and I paraphrase) its hard to leave someone you've become emotionally and psychologically tied to.

We cannot run from the problems which we face everyday; they follow us, because we take them with us. I cannot tell how many times I've heard Protestants request pryers for a 'difficult boss', a persecutory work enviroment, an antagonistic relative, etc., etc.,etc, as though the absence of any of that would be a guarentee of a spiritual life. IT DOES NOT , for Jesus said in this world (i.e, as long as you're alive) you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer I have overcome the world (This hints at another thread, What The Cross Accomplished, to which I'll quickly say, the cross places us "in Christ").

T.S. Elliot wrote among other poems, The Wasteland, to which I liken the desert and our post-modern era. The nakedness of our affections is exposed rather starkly, and we war with them(the flesh), the world and the devil in becoming what we were intended to be at creation, man in communion relationship with his Creator.

the unworthy servant

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

Dear Thomas Garland and James Anthony,

thank you both for your posts. Thomas you offer interesting insight. i agree that early Christians whom were of the moral fibre that God desires to see in his creation, probably did have out of wedlock sexual and familial relations with eachother. and many would have probably done this honourably, living as husband and wife and as guardians of the family. in which case it would be difficult to condemn either party, man or woman, as fornicators.

in modern day society this presents a paradox. we have people devoid of any spirituality, attempting to have an out of wedlock relationship, stemming out of selfish desires rather than Godly ones. what they convince themselves is love, often is only carnal lust seeking gratification, vainglory, ego and an array of feelings born out of passions. disguised as love, people begin to justify the sexual nature of the relationship, often employing methods of contraception, under the guise that "yes i love her today, and i have every intention of marrying her".

my personal beleif is that to think this way is dangerous. today we have clear instructions in the scriptures, and an abundance of saints and spiritual fathers which have helped us understand them. they are that if you trully love a woman, take her as your wife, love her in sickness and in health, create a family with her, act out your commitment and have it sanctified by God. best intentions in my mind, are not good enough. for me the scripture makes clear, that on commencement of a sexual relationship, this must be done in the context of marriage, whereby procreation is the core motivation, and physical gratification secondary to that.
this leads me to conclude, in order to be righteous in your courting of a potential partner, the focuse should be on developing the relationship on an emotional and spiritual level, and not on a sexual one. then when one matures enough to take that person in marriage, they then are ready to commence sexual relations that are sanctified by and give glory to God.

this is the trap many of the modern era have fallen into, myself included, that is interpreting scripture in a way that suits them and their conscience, in a way modernising Christianity. this of-course goes against the orthodox teachings. i hear many couples today that say, "we live together, want to get married someday, but currently are too busy, into our careers, love our lifestyle, and often don't even get time for eachother". in other words, what they really mean is that we are not ready to commit to a famiy and marriage, love our wordly life, enjoy sleeping together, and maybe one day we'll get married. its no wonder so many of these couples stay together for years, and a year after marriage they often seperate. this is because they were never prepared to live out the realities of marriage both pleasurable and testing.

in saying all this, i recongnise the amount of hypocrisy in my own way of life. and hence i acknowledge my transgressions and search deep for the strength to repent, and strive to live in essance the Christian way.

[sinjin smithe]

James wrote:


Owen, Sinjin, Andonis,

When I was in the military I sat on a bus on my way back to base. At the time I was overseas. My prayer went something like this: "God I know that Jesus is all I need, but I'd like someone to share my life with, a wife." God's answer- yes I'm sure it was God- "This day I've prepared a wife for thee." That little prayer session was in 1972, my wife and I were married in 1977. It was hard enough being a Black pagan, but imagine what it was like to be shunned socially by those who supposedly knew Christ. Unless I've missed something over the years, in reading Scripture, not Jung, Freud, or anyoue but God said, "It is not good that man should be alone, I will make a helpmeet for him." It should be noted that God said this BEFORE the fall of Adam and Eve. We were created for companionship; first of all, with God our Creator and then with our fellowman. If people are not needed, then we do not live in community either as monastics or otherwise.
God is the husbandman, He is our Father, the friend sticking closer than a brother. But notice, the Orthodox sacrement of marriage began in the Garden of Eden, because God said it was not good for man to be alone! Scientists and men of medicine have yet to figure out exactly what causes depression, but this I know,an overwhelming sense of lonliness does not help. Yes, human friends are not the panacea to our relationship problems; however, for those who do not have the gift to be as the Apostle Paul-traveling with a close group of confidants, though unmarried- it is better for them than to burn.
Please forgive me if there is an angry tone whatsoever, but since I've struggled with this problem, and am trying to help guide my son through the same thing, it's a little personal.

I agree with you wholeheartedly here James. You really said it best. This was what I was referring to when I made my comments. I struggle with an acute, sometimes overwheming sense of loneliness in my life. I know we need God first but we need others too.

[Effie Ganatsios]

James Anthony post no.59

"When I was in the military I sat on a bus on my way back to base. At the time I was overseas. My prayer went something like this: "God I know that Jesus is all I need, but I'd like someone to share my life with, a wife." God's answer- yes I'm sure it was God- "This day I've prepared a wife for thee." "

I too believe that there is a plan in our lives - it's up to us to allow it to happen. I have just finished reading a biography of Mother Gabriela, a Greek nun. "Thy Will be Done" was what she lived by.
I am filled with admiration for this woman - she lived for years in India, even living as a hermit in the Himalayas for a number of years where she heard the voice of God telling her to become a nun (at about the age of 60). We are told that the tree is judged by its fruit. This woman had a tremendous influence on people of all ages and of many nationalities before retreating to her island monastery at the age of 90. She depended on God for absolutely everything - she believed that if He wanted something to happen he would provide both the means and the opportunity. She gave Him absolute trust and wasn't disappointed.

What I wanted to say with the above (I have a tendency to not know when to stop when I start writing) is that, if we are true to the voice inside ourselves - our conscience being, in my opinion, the voice of God - things will turn out for the best. Everything else is just theory. Each person has his own path to tread. Some are attracted to a family and friend orientated life and others to a solitary life. Each has its difficulties and rewards. We have to pray, read the bible and various texts, try to live in accordance with our religion and , most importantly, keep still - to allow God's voice to be heard.

The reason I included James Anthony's statement at the beginning of this message is because something similar happened to me. I have been married now for over 30 years and I truly believe that my husband is God's gift to me (although why I deserve a gift I don't really know!). His name should have been Theodore (Theodoros) and not Dimitrios.

Effie

Thy Will be Done - the hardest but most comforting words in my experience.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to sinjin smithe


Post Number: 53


“… I struggle with an acute, sometimes overwheming sense of loneliness in my life. I know we need God first but we need others too. “


Sinjin, at times we all feel lonely. Can I ask if you are married? Forgive me if you have already given this information in a previous message – I haven’t read all the messages on this thread yet.

I wrote a message to James Anthony and I hope you’ll read it as well.

Effie

[Moses Anthony]

Effie,
As Orthodox Christians we are both family and body, which I say to say this: all our experiences are shared experiences, they never happen to just me alone. Therefore, we can comfort others with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. (2 Cor.1:3-4)
Thanks for your note!

the unworthy servant

[sinjin smithe]

Effie,
Thank you for your message. No, I am not married(I am only 23 years old) nor I am in relationship.

Thy Will be Done - the hardest but most comforting words in my experience.

I agree with you totally, those words are the hardest for me at times to utter. I hope it is God's plan that I get meet someone and get married but how does one know? How do you know if God is telling you something in your conscience or if it is just your own desire? I guess my question is how does one discern the will of God in their life? This is something I still don't understand.

I was wondering what the title of the biography of Mother Gabriela is and is it available in English?

[Effie Ganatsios]

Answer to Sinjin's post no. 55

"How do you know if God is telling you something in your conscience or if it is just your own desire? I guess my question is how does one discern the will of God in their life? This is something I still don't understand. "

Hi Sinjin,

In my own experience this means that if something is not meant to be barriers will be put up to prevent it. You can of course storm these barriers and just go ahead and do what you want to but that's not what we are seeking i.e. the will of God.

Deep down inside us we know when something is good or bad - especially if we insist on being honest with ourselves (you might be surprised at the number of people who are incapable of being honest with themselves!).

Again, if you want to do something and aren't sure whether it is correct, you have to ask yourself some questions : is what I want going to hurt anyone else? Is it going against the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus? And if you get past this stage then just wait a while - don't rush into anything.

Something that is important, and that was also stressed in the book I referred to, is the necessity of taking advantage of every opportunity that comes your way.

For example : about a month ago I was recommended for a teaching job with a very good international company and at first I was hesitant, -am I the right person for the job? -are my qualifications adequate? - I 've been enjoying the beauty and the security of my home for the last couple of years so why start a new career at my age? etc. etc. etc. I finally stopped my emotional and insecure thoughts and told myself that I would leave it in God's hands. I would send my CV to the firm's main offices and whatever happens, happens. To my surprise I got the job, I'm finding it easy (I make sure I'm always well-prepared of course), and I'm also enjoying myself!! If I hadn't taken advantage of this opportunity that came my way I would be the loser today.

The title of the book I referred to in my last post is "The ascetic of love - Gerontissa Gabriela". The Greek word "Gerontissa" means "old lady" Geronta / geras is the Greek stem of the English words dealing with old age. E.g. geriatrics, gerontology

This book is now being translated into English but you can find this nun's sayings in English on the Internet. Most of the correspondence during her long life was in English - she was an internationally known figure.

Sorry this has been so long - I really have to learn to edit my messages!!

Effie

[Moses Anthony]

Sinjin,

When I was a young Protestant, I heard and repeated the phrase (it seems Protestants love phrases), "If the desire within, the circumstances without and the Word of God agree, you can be pretty sure that it's the will of God". That is an 'iffy' (not reliable) measuring stick. Since I've used that term/metaphor, in this particular instance-and all others for that matter- Jesus is the standard against which everything in our lives is measured. There's no Mr. or Mrs. Right! Men and women can live monagomously with any number of different people. The rub(hard part) is, to live together as each has been commanded by God. Even on my very best day I've not loved my wife "...as Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself up for her".

For a lot of the 'other stuff' we need not bother our gray matter, trying to discern if this or that is God's will. We are not to be drunkards, gluttons, slanderers, unjust, unloving, we are not to steal, lie, cheat, be malicious gossips, dishonoring to parents, lazy stewards, slothful, brawlers, given to much wine, haters of God or of good, we are not to be stumbling blocks to other believers in the use of our freedoms in Christ. The list of the good things which we are to be and do, is even longer; that is if you're into lists.
God leads me different than He does Matthew, or Owen, or Andonis, Richard Mc, Effie.

The point I long for is to be close enough to God, so that all He has to do is whisper to get my attention. Jesus often slipped away to pray, Moses, prophet and God-seer of Israel talked with God face to face, it was intense prayer which prepared the disciples for Pentecost, for chosing the first deacons, and missionary efforts. In all the phrases, quotes from the Church Fathers, and books to be read, spending time alone with God is the absolute best way to discern God's will! (sorry Owen) Filter all the other stuff through the time you spend with God!

tus

[Effie Ganatsios]

Sinjin, I absolutely agree with James' observations in his above message. Spend time alone with God.

We each have our own path to follow.

Effie

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi all,

it amazes me that although i feel my recent resolution with my girlfreind will now allow to follow a more ascetic path, once again the clutches of temptation compel me. i find one of the most difficult of my apetites which i struggle with is the desire to fornicate. it definitely is my achilles heel, as it is of many men. it feels every time i try to put myself in some sort of spiritual order, a new temptation is born regarding this issue. its as if women can sense your struggle, and become even more flirtatious to make things even harder.
i guess i was wandering whether anybody had any advice regarding how to tackle this. maybe my spirituality is still in too primitive a state, to wrap my mind around how to conquer this passion. i feel this is the greatest hurdle which has kept me stagnant for too long in my life. i know God has kept from me the richness that can be attained through celibacy, because i have never attempted to live this way. and this ties in to the fact that i feel my life is at such a standstill. its almost as if, if he doesn't see me reach the level of ascetisicm he beleives i am capable of, then he refuses to reveal his plan for me. i am blocked of from the illuminating light. i know that faith precedes revelation of truth, but knowing this and putting into practise are often two different things....

[Owen Jones]

Andonis,

Waving all of this stuff in front of us seems a bit unseemly. Try taking it to your priest.

[sinjin smithe]

its as if women can sense your struggle, and become even more flirtatious to make things even harder.

I wish that was the case in my situation!! I agree with Owen, take it to your priest.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

you might be right Owen, hope i haven't offended anybody. just felt i could be a little more open amongst Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters. i will take it up with a preist when i find the appropriate one. i would find it hard to approach the parish preist at this point, because i guess i have approached him more as a freind and i it would seem very strange to confess such things to him. on the other hand, he may deem totally appropriate. don't know...?

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Adonis'post no. 32

Andoni, you haven't offended anyone. I agree with Owen and Sinjin. It would be best if you spoke to someone who knows you and is close to you. Even if, up to now, you have thought of your priest as just your friend, he's a priest first and he's there to help his congregation. He'll be more than happy to help.

You might be going through some sort of withdrawal phase. You've just broken off a relationship and even though you said that you were feeling OK, it takes a while to recover. At the moment you need someone close to you who is willing to listen - a good friend or, again, your priest.

Effie

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

Hi Effie,

thank you for your encouraging words. although i feel the opportunity has once again arrived, for me to once again venture on an ascetic climb, the demons that took hold of me for so long, are still lurking. their hold over me is not as great, but nevertheless healing cannot begin unless i do approach my preist. what i need most is spiritual conselling and not some shrink telling me about how insecure i am based on childhood experiences, nor a quack doctor shoveling prozac. i need to cleanse myself of the numerous transgressions i committed, and furthermore to come to terms with the bitterness i feel now. i don't want to harbour all this confusion and ill filling which seems is always part of the left over baggage after a relationship.

what confuses me is how is it the modern world portrays it as being so easy. you watch a show like "sex in the city", and your are given the impression that living as a single lady or man, well into your forties, having multiple sexual partners without committments is trendy, the way to live. addedd to that is the latest mobile phone, and lip gloss, how can God possibly compete with that? i feel a deep sense of greif for the way i have been living, i feel spiritual darkness and turmoil, i certainly don't feel anything like these actors on TV. at the same time i sense joy in sorrow, as i am given once more an opportunity to grow in the knowledge of God. his mercy is infinite...

[Moses Anthony]

Andonis,

I believe the reason that immorality, and the easy resolutions to such as portrayed on television, apppear easy is because Satan/the devil/Lucifer has the vast majority of the world fooled. We seem to have a penchant for whatever seems to be the less painful remedy to whatever ails us. When we try the easy t.v. appproach and it doesn't work, we're discouraged and the task of the "prince of the power of the air" is all the more easy,but consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart

I once told a lie to one of my supervisors, about another one, for no other reason than that I might go home earlier. The lie was easy, but only netted me 1/2 an hour. How interesting -in retrospect- that the easy lie never gets us what we thought it would.

E-mail is like tel-evangelists, no substitutes for the real thing. Speak with your father confessor.

the unworthy servant

[Owen Jones]

Dear James,

Whatever the theory behind sin, the Church has well established practices for resisting sin. Or, more accurately, going beyond the need to resist sin, by changing our nature by instilling pious habits into our material fabric, so to speak, so that sinning becomes the unnatural thing to do. This goes well beyond just showing up for Church, as important as that is. The problem is that these practices are rarely discussed in the modern church. Confession before communion is not the complete answer, especially when we find ourselves confessing the same thing over and over again. More likely we are apt to find a five or ten minute sermon with a very pious interpretation of the Gospel reading for the day, or the life of a saint -- again, good as far as it goes -- but not far enough. The question is not what I should do but how can I do it. Such practical wisdom seems to be very scarce these days.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

Dear Owen,

i fully agree with the idea of changing our nature so that we cannot sin. but i wonder how many people actually reach that level of piety. i know myself that the sin that i was commiting did feel like it was stangling my life, a kind of premature spiritual death occurs. this makes it very difficult to continue to sin because it does trully feel that is against one's nature. i guess it must begin with faith that resisting sin initially, will reveal the truths why purity is more in accordance with one's nature. for by realising this, entering into a divine nature allows you to see how meagre your fallen human nature is in comparison.

Dear James
i fully agree that Satan has got the majority of the world foolled. it really astounds me, that evil has managed to weave its way into all areas of life to the degree that it now controls the lives of the majority. some to a large and others to a lesser degree, nevertheless it does reign on the earth. where can people possibly turn too for truth, now that even the name of Christ has been utilised to mislead rather than enlighten. such is the darkness of our times...

[sinjin smithe]

That is a very good point Owen. I find myself repeating the same sin over and over, but I find that no one can tell how exactly can I stop repeating these sins. I wish someone would tell me.

[Owen Jones]

They are usually outward manifestations of other things we don't notice. That's why trying to stop doesn't work until we get at the underlying cause. This usually involves some difficult changes that we usually do not wish to make.

[Owen Jones]

I see people undergo profound changes in their nature all the time. It takes hard work, that's all. And willingness. We would rather lament, or blame the world, or blame Satan, rather than do the hard work. We'll work hard for a buck, or other things we enjoy, but we just refuse to do the hard work necessary to change. There's nothing mysterious about self-will.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

been having funny conversations with people at work lately, ones that claim they are ofcourse devoutly Christian. my boss for example, whom trully is a brilliant women, kind, smart, giving and whom i have a great deal of respect for. yet we really come at odds when discussing certain issues. we had a hot debate about same sex couples and they're attempts to adopt or have children using technology. she of-course took the modernist approach to the issue, and said that as long as people acted with love, all was okay. yet she said she was completely opposed to open marriages, swingers parties etc whereby infedility is accepted. the hypocrisy astounded me. she said also that her parish preist was as liberal as her, and that the church should move with the times.

my work environment is basically goverened by people with similar beleifs to my boss's. there isn't a hint of truth in half their beleifs, and yet they stand at the top of the food chain in our organisation. it astounds me, how can such intelligent people be so blind, blind, blind???

basically what she is telling me is that i take from the bible, what suits me, alter bits of it to suit the times, and disregard what i don't consider valid. why doesn't she just re write it and update it annually, like the organisations policy manual? she obviously beleives she would be justified in doing so.

this is the kind of world we are trying to bring children into today. what chance do we have when the odds are so stacked against us? God have mercy on us in these darkest of times...

[Moses Anthony]

Now there's a thought which probably could have fit in the discusson about birth control; why bring children into a world filled with corrupt morals? Another angle to that same line of thought I actually had a couple of times with Protestant friends, concerned large families and the world foood supply.

In the question, "...what chance do we have when the odds are so stacked against us?", I detect more than a hint of despondency, or hopelessness. Remember Peter, what chance did he have of walking on water. And ask yourself; How did Peter get back to the boat? Therefore , since we have so a great a cloud of witnessses surrounding us, let us lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Heb.13:1-3; 1Jn.3:7&8

That is the chance we have! Remember the words of our Lord to His chosen Apostles,"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me you might have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world".I know, I know, those are very familiar verses of Holy Scripture, so familiar that we've become innoculated to the fact that they're true.

If we as Orthodox have the 'true faith', and engage in the 'right worship', then that is all the "chance" our children need. For surely they will see us living what we profess, Forgiveness Vespers, Confession & Repentance, and the love of God which covers a multitude of sins.

Please forgive me for being so wordy!

the unworthy servant

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

another thing i am closely discovering now is how much a slave to vice i have become. with the new Christian changes that i am trying to infiltrate every area of my life with,i am finding it a real struggle. years of bad habits have become so ingrained. i pray for God to give me strength because i realise how difficult a road i have embarked on, i cannot do it on my own...

[sinjin smithe]

Does anyone know of any good Patristic resources for those struggling with addictions of the flesh such as sexual sins?

[Adam]

Commiting sin and confesion
I have received the topic Sinjin has begane with hope and joy. As you all know already I am from RC background. In this Church the distinction between so called mortal and venial sin is very important. As a single, I have ad problems with sexual things and struggling with my flesh at all. I would gratefuly accept your opinions how to behave with such temptations.

[Richard McBride]

Beloved of the Lord, Sinjin:

Have you tried living according to the Ladder, one rung at a time?
The problem with treating the flesh as a single problem is that it comes attached to so many other parts. Perhaps, you need a more wholistic approach. Saint John's Ladder is one of them.

richard mcb

[sinjin smithe]

Have you tried living according to the Ladder, one rung at a time?
The problem with treating the flesh as a single problem is that it comes attached to so many other parts. Perhaps, you need a more wholistic approach. Saint John's Ladder is one of them.

richard mcb

No, I haven't as I do not know much about the Ladder. What is a good book about it for a layman like myself to read?

[Richard McBride]

John Climacus
"The Ladder of Divine Ascent"
Series: The Classics of Western Spirituality
Paulist Press
1982
Sold at "Borders Book Stores" $22.95 pb

[wb thompson]

A kind of preface and reader's guide to The Ladder is Fr. John Mack's "Ascending the Heights"-- I just started it and highly recommend it. (Though I do wish Orthodox writers would begin to describe our fallen-ness without reference to the myth of Eden, which causes lots of needless problems).

[John Vrablic]

Myth of eden??

Can you explain what you mean by the myth of eden??

Thank you

John

[wb thompson]

By "myth of Eden" I simply mean that the story is not history. More specifically, I had in mind the fact that human sin did not, historically speaking, bring death into the world. In other words, plants and animals were dying long before our species even appeared on the planet. So, I'd rather talk about human "fallen-ness"--our failings, our shortcomings, etc, which DO happen in history--than The Fall, which did not happen in history.

[Owen Jones]

Boy, are you going to get a lot of flack on this one, WB.

In fact, Christianity makes no sense without a "myth" of the fall from a state of perfection to a state of corruption. The Christian view is that all things were made to coexist in perfect harmony and that we should live for ever in harmony with nature. The only other logical alternative explanation for our current malevolent disposition (as well as our agonizing awareness that we are indeed fallen and in need of salvation) is that God has somehow fallen, in which case this discussion, and virtually any other intelligent discussion for that matter, is pointless.

Human "fallen-ness" as you are using it is a contemporary term that psychologizes our sinful condition. It's part of the human potential movement. It's something that we overcome ourselves by living up to our potential.

In Christian thought, there are two histories, what we might call secular history, and what some moderns call salvation history, but which classically is called the metaxy or intermediate realm of reality in between. In salvation history, there is less emphasis on some factual, documentable event. In fact, the event does not take place in secular history at all, but in a realm in between. But when most people today are confronted with this classical Christian concept, they just get confused and assume that means it didn't happen.

The fall may or may not have happened factually as stated in Scripture and some classical theologians differ on that, but the reality of it is what counts. It is a true "myth" even if it didn't happen exactly that way, or in seven of our days. If one wishes to use "myth" to describe that, it may fit some patristic theology, but I'm afraid most modern usages of the term myth merely refer to something that has been contrived for propaganda purposes. That's what people assume today when you use the term myth.

This would presume, of course, all of the modern liberal resentments against Christian teaching on creation, the fall, the incarnation, resurrection, etc. All myths, therefore to be discarded. And so what's left?

The underlying proof of the Christian doctrine of the fall is that human beings all have a desire for immortality. All of us. It is expressed differently. But we all have it. Where does that come from? We all know intuitively that there is something unnatural about death and we seek to strive beyond the grave. This has always been true. NEanderthals buried their dead in an East-West axis. they would not do this without a primordial confidence in their immortality.


Christians believe that God has revealed himself more fully to us, first through the prophets and then through Christ, so that we have a better understanding of our true nature and destiny and the path that we must take. That is probably the thing that disturbs moderns the most -- egalitarians that we are. Why would God reveal himself to one small group and not everyone? Isn't he a good modern liberal who believes in diversity? Why would he single out some people specially for His revelation? And that is what myth is, in the traditional sense -- it is the way God reveals his way with us, in a concrete way, (not as an abstract theory) in and through a particular people and culture.

[wb thompson]

Owen,

Let me respond point by point, and without trying to be controversial or disagreeable.

I’d rather see the “state of perfection” as something that God wants us to arrive at,
and not in some mythical sense, but in reality, body and soul.

As for explaining “our current malevolent disposition”—when has it ever been explained in a believable way? Why can’t we simply acknowledge that we have fallen short of the perfection of God and move on without an explanation? Maybe God hasn’t seen fit to reveal this point. I’d rather be without an explanation than force myself to believe in something that is literally unbelievable, as the Creationists would have us do.

“Human ‘fallen-ness’ as you are using it is a contemporary term that psychologizes our sinful condition. It's part of the human potential movement.”: Not at all. Well, it is contemporary because it’s my own. But I’m not trying to “psychologize” anything, and I have no faith whatsoever in “human potential” apart from God.

I’ve never before seen the term “metaxy”; it makes no sense to me.

”The fall may or may not have happened factually as stated in Scripture and some classical theologians differ on that, but the reality of it is what counts.” I don’t understand how one can make a dichotomy between fact and reality. Fact: Eden never existed; there was no Fall. Fact: I’m not what God wants me to be; I am a sinner. Both are real, both are facts. A Fall? no. Fallen-ness? Who can deny it?

“All myths, therefore to be discarded. And so what's left?” Truth, presumably. The resurrection is a historical fact as far as I’m concerned (and, much more importantly, as far as the Church is concerned).

I’m not trying to be controversial here at all. I hope my tone is as friendly as I want it to be.

[John Wilson]

wb, as far as I can tell, the early fathers believed in the Genesis accounts of creation. Something that may help you bend your mind around the apparent paradox of a provably very old earth and universe with the young earth and universe of Genesis is that When God created Adam, he did not create a single cell within an artificial womb which then divided and so on until a baby was produced, which then proceded to grow into an adult. When God created Adam, he created in an instant, an adult, body and soul, who to an outside observer would have appeared in every way to have been many years old, despite being aged merely seconds. When God created the trees, in an instant there were fully mature trees that a later observer would swear were hundreds of years old. When God created the stars, not only did they suddenly exist where before there had been nothing, but also their entire "light histories". Thus we can see s Carinae which is 11736 light years away despite the fact that its light should not have even reached the earth yet according to the biblical age determined for the earth and universe.

If you want to have a better understanding of this topic, I recommend you read the following:

For a popular modern view, The Six Dawns by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros. It should be at this address (http://www.magnet.gr/stjohn/sixdawn1.htm) but the web site for the parish of St. John the Theologian, Thessaloniki, which hosts the article, appears to be down. However if you google for six dawns kalomiros (http://www.google.com/search?q=six%2Bdawns%2Bkalomiros&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=el&lr=) you will find that google has generously kept copies of the web pages in its cache. Note, though Dr Kalomiros is very well grounded in Patristics, his understanding of certain Fathers puts them at odds with others.Thus the response below.

For a patristic response to Dr. Kalomiros' view by Fr. Seraphim Rose, pop on over to OrthodoxInfo (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/evolution_frseraphim_kalomiros.htm) so you can get an understanding of how our church fathers interpret Genesis. Fathers like St Basil the Great, St. John Damascene, St. Ephraim the Syrian, St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Gregory Palamas.

Be sure to read both articles :D (I hope you've got some time to spare)

[Justin]

By "myth of Eden" I simply mean that the story is not history. More specifically, I had in mind the fact that human sin did not, historically speaking, bring death into the world. In other words, plants and animals were dying long before our species even appeared on the planet. So, I'd rather talk about human "fallen-ness"--our failings, our shortcomings, etc, which DO happen in history--than The Fall, which did not happen in history.

Yeah, but it doesn't say "sin, or at least death entered the world over billions of years, therefore Christ will restore the earth over billions of years," does it? Sin and death entered by a specific set of transgressions (identified almost universally with Adam), and it went even further downhill from there in terms of corruption (as Saint Athanasius and others taught). Likewise, the cure entered into reality in one specific set of events, and afterwards recovery was possible, or rather, restoration and even surpassing the spiritually childlike level of Adam.


Maybe God hasn’t seen fit to reveal this point.

But he has! Just about all christocentric anthropology in the Orthodox perspective take the Genesis account as fact (whether literal or figurative) and moves on from there.

[wb thompson]

The bones say otherwise.

I wish the creation story _were_ history; it would make life much easier for me.

But truth is truth. I guess I'm done with this conversation.

[Hermit]

Oh, wait. Let me point out some possibilities before you go.

Timescale, 6 days vs 12-18 billion years: one possibility is that Moses received a vision of the Creation over a period of six days, greatly speeded up, and thought that was how long it took.

Another possibility is that the 6 days are from God's point of view, shifting to man's on the seventh. Since God has a universal point of view, which accelerates as the universe did from the Big Bang, many billions of years to us would be a few days to Him, using relativistic mechanics.

Now take a look at the NIV creation text:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

How is that not a description of the Big Bang?

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas."
The formation of one supercontinent?

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12
Vegetation before animals.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.
Now we see something that seems a bit out of step, the land vegetation before the sea creatures ... but which creature? Dr Gerald Schroeder has made a convincing case that "great creatures of the sea", taneenim, should be translated as great REPTILES (dinosaurs), due to passages where Nahash (snake) is used in tandem with taneenim.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
Mammals created after dinosaurs.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Man created after mammals.

But isn't this remarkable? It's not PERFECT according our modern interpretation, but this is WAY beyond the world on a turtle or other primitive mythologies!

Big Bang, an earth with one continent, a progression from plants to dinosaurs to mammals to man, with only a few items inexplicable or out of the order we know - which one might expect given the difficulties of translating ancient Hebrew to English.

[Owen Jones]

Dear WB,

I love how you bring up a topic, then you say you are done with it. So be it. But please defend your proposition that sin is a fact. Sin is not a fact. There are many beliefs and interpretations of why people are what they are and do what they do and sin is one of them. If you believe that sin is the cause of our falln state, then there are certain other obvious, logical premises and conclusions that go along with that.

But tHere is no fact of sin, just as there is no fact of Christ, nor is there, even a fact of existence. I exist as something, for something, because of something that is beyond me. My thingness may be a fact, but not my existence. What do I mean, after all, when I use the term "my?" or "I?"

So please do not take the infantile position that if something is not a "fact" you are not interested in discussing it. Likewise, it makes no sense to reduce history to facts. History is a story, not a compendium of facts on a time line. And what some theologians call salvation history does not occur in time per se. So there is no historical fact of the incarnation or resurection or ascension. We know all of these things to be TRUE, however, by virtue of faith.

[Justin]

wb thompson


The bones say otherwise. I wish the creation story _were_ history; it would make life much easier for me. But truth is truth. I guess I'm done with this conversation

Pilate asked "What is truth?" (Jn. 18:38) But the truth is not contained in a "what" (philosophy, science, etc.), it's contained in a "who" (ie. God). Only through that specific "who" can we ask a more particular question as to "what?" The answer to the "what" of that specific "who" is: the theanthropic body, the Orthodox Church, of which Christ is the head.

Who is truth? Christ. What is truth? Orthodoxy. Who is not truth? Antichrist (And there are even now many antichrists among us). What is not truth? Pseudo-science (that which cuts itself off from the source of all truth in order to falsely and pathetically appear "objective") and pseudo-religion (that which lies outside Orthodoxy).

Justin

PS. It's good in a way that the creation story doesn't appear, to you, to be easily believed. Life isn't suppose to be evil. The road to salvation is a steep and rugged ascent indeed.

[Justin]

I meant that life isn't suppose to be "easy," not "evil" ;)

Some intersting posts on this thread (excepting my own)...

[wb thompson]

I do not appreciate being called "infantile," Mr. Jones.

My only point was that plants and animals were dying before humans appeared on the planet and that therefore death was here before human sin.
That is the truth, and if it makes your theology less tidy than you'd wish, I'm sorry.

I'm now done with the topic and Monachos as well.

Thanks for the hospitality.

[sinjin smithe]

Richard,
Thank you for your post. Do you have source where I can find more about St. Symeon the New Theologian, such as books possibly?

3. Abandon all recourse to self-will;

4. Strive for simplicity in personal relationships;

6. Obedience to the Will of God is essential; (thus, one becomes more conscious of those souls whose duty it is to represent God).

What do you mean by simplicity in personal relationships? What is meant by avoid all recourse to self-will? How does one determine the will of God in their life? These are the questions that I have. It would be nice for some clarification on all of this.

[Justin]

WB,

If you're leaving because you realise that posting at this forum is causing YOU to go astray--your passions to rise up--then go in peace, I will pray for you, please pray for me.

If you're leaving because your pride got hurt and you think you're talking to a wall or that we're idiots, then go in peace, and please do some introspection. I will certainly be praying for you http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif (I assume you're reading this; I've participated on boards long enough to know that when people say they're leaving, it usually means they're changing their status to "lurker;" at least until they see how other people react to their leaving)

[M.C. Steenberg]

Earlier in this thread, the following was noted:


I’ve never before seen the term “metaxy”; it makes no sense to me.

A good discussion on the notion of metaxy was had in this community some time ago now. It can be read through (and continued, if desired).

INXC, Matthew

[Hermit]

I'm also interested in St Symeon, thanks for the reference Richard. Here's a place where you can order one book about him (this site also puts out a good weekly email newsletter), scroll about halfway down: http://www.innerlightproductions.com/librarym.htm

[sinjin smithe]

Hermit, thank you for the link. I look forward to receiving the newsletter.

[Richard McBride]

Beloved of the Lord Sinjin:

Hermet’s kind reference to “Inner Light Productions” looks like a good place to start, as you have already said.

I am glad you asked about Saint Symeon, because the little extractions I offered look so vapid now. I am ashamed. You must read Saint Symeon’s words in their context.

This is said because you suffer what every person suffers at the start of their pilgrimage. That is really what The Pilgrim was about. It was the lesson over and over, not to stop praying. Never stop questioning (as you are doing). Suffer all the plights that will befall you, and maybe even questioning God’s love for you. But even when you sin, immediately beat your breast for the crimes you have committed, and take them to God. That is the most difficult time to pray: When you are full of the terrible crime you have committed, and are so chagrined that you may hardly face our Lord. Do it, and you will weep and receive repentance. (But, forgive me; I rant on about what you already know.)

The important point, corny as it sounds, is that one simply learns by being curious, and constantly seeking the direction where the Lord, or His Mother, is leading. The problem is that being of hard heart, we scarcely know the voice of God from that of the enemy. But that is why it is so important to learn to discern that which is evil. One learns by doing. Such experience is precisely what Saint Symeon preached.

“Self-Will” & “Simplicity in personal relationships”
I am still not certain of what this may mean. But I think about it quite a lot. And I am confident that as I contemplate the simplicity of a relationship, I will learn more. For one thing, what does lying do for you? It complicates your relationship with anyone. There are all those false statements one must remember. In similar fashion, a simple life is made of simple attachments with people; it is uncluttered. Your relationships become cluttered, complex and “unmanageable” when you intrude your own will into the mix. Remove your own wilful desires, and immediately life is made simpler by thinking only of the other’s requirements.

Only the saints understand something (not everything) of God’s will. So, the point is not to understand His will, so much as it is to prepare your heart and intellect to be able to respond to his wishes. Then, you will have no question about what He wants.

In all these things, it seems at first that one goes through a long dry spell in learning and making contact, but NEVER give in to depressive thoughts that God is ignoring you. If you did insisted upon contact, you probably would not like it -- that is, until you have prepared yourself to receive Him.

That is probably the greatest lesson Saint Symeon has to offer. He shows that by developing the sensitivity of the conscience and following it, without fail, how much more quickly you can move toward God. And this is the movement of a sinner, not a saint. It is the way for all of us who live in cities.

I pray for your discernment, Sinjin

richard mcb

[Owen Jones]

Dear Sinjin,

simplicity can refer to lack of personal, material possessions that inevitably complicate one's life. but it can also refer to mental simplicity, which means that I am not cold and calculating in my affairs with others. I am not always thinking about how I can turn a relationship to my advantage. Nor am I always analysing or intellectualizing the person -- turning the person into some object of critical analysis. Simplicity of relationships means not trying to gain advantage or power over the other person. This, of course, is virtually impossible in politics and business and the military, and, unfortunately, in the institutional Church. But it is still a standard with striving for by Christians in all our affairs and, presumably, if we are in a situation that prevents the virtue of simplicity, and this undermines our virtue, then we must remove ourselves from that situation. Please don't assume my vain attempt to explain simplicity is exhaustive.

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

My first post here on these boards. With some trepidation therefore ....!

Are we all aware here that there are TWO families of patristic theodicy ... that provided by Blessed Augustine and his "take" on original sin and that of St. Irenaeus largely followed in the east?

If this has been raised before, I apologise. As a newbie I don't have the time to read all the previous posts. I will take this further if anyone is interested.

[Hermit]

Fr. Gregory Hallam, nice to see you here. Did you jump ship?

I suppose as a Catholic I should be on the side of St Augustine, but I'd certainly like to see a brief summary of St Irenaus's take on original sin. The idea of Adam's sin ruining everyone afterward doesn't make much sense to me.

[Richard Leigh]

There is that distintion on the fall of our first parents "Original" ve. "Ancestral Sin." The real problem Orthodoxy has with Augustine's approach is his take on "original GUILT". O-dx will not agree that anyone inherits someone else's guilt.

I think we all recognize a tendency to committ sin as a consequence of being humans afterh the Fall, though.

R. Leigh

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

Dear Hermit

I am still on Ship-of-Fools but I am coming here for a more in-house technical exchange! This is an article on the Belief page of my parish web site. There are other connected articles there but this is about the Fall and Irenaean theodicy ...

St. Aidan's Orthodox Church Belief Page (http://www.orthodox.clara.net/belief.htm)

Ancestral Sin and Salvation

(Note: Orthodox use the word "ancestral sin" in relation to the disobedience of Adam and Eve. The Orthodox understanding on this matter is quite different from the "west" in its doctrine of "original sin." This article will also explain why).

There are two major issues presented by these three texts:- Genesis 3:1-24, Roman 6:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 51-58 when seen in conjunction:-

(1) The relationship between sin and death. Here we can identify:-

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
1Corinthians 15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


(2) The Orthodox doctrine of salvation as it pertains to the cross and the resurrection of Christ.

We start with the Garden of Eden. Since in the Greek this is paradeisoz (Paradise) we may rightly understand the Garden and indeed Heaven as a real place in space-time but removed from the fallen domain of this world. In this dimension, our first Parents communed with the world, each other and God. The Fathers, (Sts. Theophilus of Antioch, Ephraim the Syrian, Hilary of Poitiers, Maximus the Confessor), insist that our first parents were created neither mortal nor immortal. Until the point of his disobedience Adam was sinless but not perfect and able to sin. He was not immortal but capable of achieving immortality through obedience. This is most important for what comes after and especially as we compare the biblical doctrine of our original state with what later emerged in the post-Orthodox west.

We learn from this starting point that Adam was like a child, fully capable of growing up in obedience to his Heavenly Father and achieving immortality. We know that he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in disobedience to God’s Word and suffered death as a result. We are not dealing here with the Promethean myth of Greek paganism in which Prometheus stole fire from the gods and paid the price for his audacity. The fruit itself was not placed in Eden with a permanent exclusion zone around it leaving humanity in state of infantile innocence. God’s intention was that Adam should grow up through obedience until he received the necessary spiritual maturity to handle such things. Like a child he had to be taught. But like many children and adults he would not be taught. He wanted to be autonomous; to be God-like without God and he thereby brought death down upon his head.

Listen to St. Irenaeus:-

"Man was a little one, and his discretion still undeveloped, wherefore also he was easily misled by the deceiver."

St. Irenaeus and the Fathers generally, therefore, do not see death as a divine punishment for the disobedience of our first parents. This distortion arose later in the west under the influence of Augustine. They interpret the Fall as something we brought on ourselves when we distanced ourselves from God. God still walks in the Garden. It is we who hide and shamefully cover our nakedness. Likewise, the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Paradise and the angel standing guard with the flaming sword is not an act of divine retribution but a compassionate and merciful provision lest we eat of the second tree, the Tree of Life, and die eternally. The fruit of this tree, if we had eaten it, would have condemned us forever.

Listen to St. John Chrysostom:-

"Partaking of the tree, the man and woman became liable to death and subject to the future needs of the body. Adam was no longer permitted to remain in the Garden, and was bidden to leave, a move by which God showed His love for him … he had become mortal, and lest he presume to eat further from the tree which promised an endless life of continuous sinning, he was expelled from the Garden as a mark of divine solicitude, not of necessity."

[Hom. in Gen XVIII, 3 PG 53 151]

The sin of Adam and Eve was one of disobedience born out of a demonically induced pride and we know from St. Paul that wages of such sin is death [Romans 6:23]. Cast out of Eden and barred from re-entry for their own good, Adam and Eve, in their mortality are now subject to the corruption of death. Corruption here does not merely mean physical decay, it describes the fallout from the Fall as death spawns yet new evils. As St. Paul taught in the context of the resurrection as the remedy for sin and death, ("O death where is thy sting …?"), "the sting of death is sin." [1 Corinthians 15:55-56]

Listen to St. Cyril of Alexandria :-

"Adam had heard: ‘Earth thou art and to the earth shalt thou return,’ and from being incorruptible he became corruptible and was made subject to the bonds of death. But since he produced children after falling into this state, we his descendents are corruptible coming from a corruptible source. Thus it is that we are heirs of Adam’s curse."

[Doctrinal Questions and Answers, IX, 6 in Cyril of Alexandria, Selected Letters]

Notice that there is huge difference between this belief that we share in Adam’s curse through the corruption of death and the view common in the west since Augustine that we are punished by death for an original sin in Eden. The west came to believe that this original sin was transmitted to subsequent generations through sexual reproduction and that we inherit thereby not only the sin of Adam but the guilt as well. This view is first found in Augustine.

" … now when this (the Fall) happened, the whole human race was ‘in his loins’ (Adam). Hence in accordance with the mysterious and powerful natural laws of heredity it followed that those who were in his loins and were to come into this world through the concupiscence (lustful desires) of the flesh were condemned with him." [Treatise against Julian the Pelagian]

Aquinas and later the Reformers for whom Augustine was all felt constrained to repeat :-

" … the commingling of the sexes which, after the sin of our first parent, cannot take place without lust, transmits original sin to the offspring." [Aquinas: Comp. Theol., 224]

This is not Orthodox. We are responsible for the sins that we commit, not the sins of our forefathers and not the sins of our first parents. Moreover, the Fall is not a taint in our character transmitted by sex, nor is sex itself necessarily tainted by lust. Orthodox refer instead to "ancestral sin," by which we mean our participation in the disobedience of the first Adam as inherited through death, not sex. It is a curse that the Law exposed in the inability of humans to fulfil the Mosaic Covenant. It is a curse which has been redeemed by Christ. [Galatians 3:13].

This, then, is the characteristic understanding of the Fall in the Orthodox Church: sin generated by the corruption of death. In the post-Orthodox, post Christian west however, many people see death as both the natural created state of man and an unacceptable reality. This mental bind is also not Orthodox. Death, being the curse of Eden, is an unnatural enemy, neither designed into Creation by God nor desired by Him. Death, as the ultimate threat causes people to flee from their brothers, their sisters and their God in a selfish pursuit of earthly things as if these will put off the evil day. "Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die," as the saying goes. This is the real death, the death of the spirit from whence death itself has cast a longer and longer shadow over the God-less secularism of western materialism.

We must remember that this terrible fallout was self induced and not inflicted upon us by a malign wrathful deity. Even the murderer Cain was given his mark as a protection. God did not cease to love and care for us in our fallen state. He desired that the self-inflicted curse hanging over humanity should be lifted and that humans should resume their role as God’s priests in creation by growing back into spiritual maturity. This of course, He achieved through the New and Final Adam, Christ. Characteristically the Fathers speak of God saving us by recapitulating or regathering the whole creation in Himself and redeeming it, [Ephesians 1:10]. The beginning of this process was in the Incarnation, its climax, the death and resurrection of Christ, its fruition in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, the Body of Christ glorified. As St. Irenaeus proclaimed :-

"God the Son became Man in order to regather in Himself the ancient creation, so that He might slay sin and destroy the power of death, and give life to all men."

[Against the Heresies, III, xix 6 ANF]

We should not be surprised then if death, itself the wages of sin, in bringing yet more sin upon the generations of humankind, must needs be destroyed in order that the gates of Paradise might be opened once more to the whole of Creation.. This is precisely what we believe about the resurrection. Death has been destroyed by death and Christ our God has emerged victorious by contesting that ancient serpent on his own ground: death and hell. The voluntary obedience of a Virgin-Mother bruised the serpent’s head in the Incarnation, [Genesis 3:15] and the voluntary obedience of her Son unto death on a cross finally granted unto us the victory in the resurrection. In this manner Christ is revealed as the New Adam and the Mother of God the New Eve. It is Christ our God who in the icon of Pascha storms into hell and liberates the captives from the grip of death and sin. A new way has thereby been opened up for us to regain Paradise, Christ the first fruits of all those who have fallen asleep.

In conclusion we should note that this state of Paradise is more fruitful for us than the first. At the point when Adam lost Paradise both he and Eve had not the opportunity to enter into their full inheritance as children of God. Their disobedience put paid to that. It is different for us. In Christ we now have that opportunity, not only to be saved from death and hell, but also to be glorified by His life in us, the Holy Spirit. By the love poured into our hearts by that same Spirit we are now able to eat both from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. The tree of the cross has not only become our cure, the resurrection has also become our portal into the very life of God himself, our deification. Not just Paradise regained therefore but a whole Cosmos made new according to God’s plan and purpose.

Let the last word be with St. Macarius the Great s he picks up a theme of St. Paul, [2 Corinthians 3:18] :–

"the inner being of believers who through perfect faith are born of the Spirit shall reflect as in a mirror the Glory of the Lord, and are transfigured into the same image from Glory to Glory."

[wb thompson]

I'm writing to offer an apology to Owen. Our last exchange angered me very much. I don't know if it angered you or not, but I'm sorry that I let a conversation on a message board get to me the way it did, and that I let that anger show. It's not good to have bad feelings toward other Christians. Again, apologies to Owen and all others at Monachos.
--WB Thompson

[Owen Jones]

No need for an apology at all. I tend to be blunt and it brings out the worst in people. I'm still trying to figure out free will.

[sinjin smithe]

My priest today told us that it is our lack of repentance of our sins that causes us to be condemned.

[Fr Averky]

Dear sinjin,
Having heard confessions for twenty years, I often find myself telling people that an important aspect of repenting for one's sins is to make every effort to not repeat the offense. I of course understand that we fall again and again, and by God's mercy, we get up; however, all too often I have the sense that the person recounting his sins numbers them off like a shopping list and many times does not even seem to be aware how serious some sins are. I agree with your priest, and Î can tell you that I also know many people who have turned around from very serious sins. A few years ago I had occasion to go for physical therapy for about two months. After three weeks I was told that I need not go any further because I had done the prescribed exercises so well at home that I was finished. The therapist said that nine out of ten people do little or no therapy at home, thus having to keep on going for therapy sessions. The priest is the therapist, and he can help while the patient is in the church, but the progress to healing also depends on the patient's willing to see to himself.The Church gives Her help, but salvation in the end is up to the individual.

[M.C. Steenberg]

My priest today told us that it is our lack of repentance of our sins that causes us to be condemned.

Evidently, you have a very good priest. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

"David once joined sin to sin, for he mixed adultery with murder, yet he immediately offered double repentance.* But you my soul, have done things more wicked without repenting to God." (From Ode 7 of the Great Canon - Monday (http://www.monachos.net/monasticism/andrew_of_crete/great_canon_mon.shtml))

"Have you heard, my soul, of the Ninevites, who repented before God in sackcloth and ashes?* You have not imitated them, but appear to be more crooked than all who have sinned before and after the law." (From Ode 8 of the Great Canon - Tuesday (http://www.monachos.net/monasticism/andrew_of_crete/great_canon_tues.shtml))

INXC, Matthew

[Katherine Clark]

Orthodoxy is new to me. Confession is relatively new. Can someone one share about preparing for confession. I pray and sit down with a pen and paper and write what comes to mind. Today in the light of the Beatitudes. It occurred to me that I'm not a good judge of this list...good, thorough, irrelevant, right wrong or indifferent. How do you all prepare for confession?

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

Dear Katherine

There is one key question .. how have I offended against Love? Most things flow from that.

List-ism can become mechanical, impersonal. Confession is the therapy of repentance and our reconciliation with the Author and Giver of Life.

Repentance is born as the fruit of prayer and faith ... to know ourselves truly and to cast ourselves on the mercy of God.

[leandros]

Dear Katherine,

Other members of the forum, who are qualified, will provide direct answer to your question.

Let me give you an advice, not on the issue, but on the process. The priest-confessor is not “on the other side”; He is “on our side”. “On the other side” is Christ, healing our weakness into strength.

It is like being admitted into a hospital for treatment. How am I going to be prepared? As I know relative nothing about medicine and at the time I will be presented to the doctor I would have no time for preparation, because this is time of treatment, how can I arrive prepared. Do not worry. There is the paramedical stuff which assists in our preparation prior to treatment itself. The paramedical stuff is “on our side”. Of course, paramedics follow orders from Doctor.

In Church, we are admitted for spiritual treatment. How are we to be prepared for such treatment? Church provides paramedical services, just like a real hospital does, which are being provided from a priest/nun/monk, which is called “spiritual father” or “spiritual mother” in case of a nun. So, a spiritual father/mother is the qualified person to provide information over preparation issues.

Most Fathers of our Christian orthodox faith have used this analogy of Church/hospital to make clear that if we “prepare” ourselves, by ourselves, then the confession/treatment will fail.

In the Church I am never alone “me and Christ”. It is always “us and Christ”. Before my confession, during the preparation, there is another person present: my spiritual father/mother. In my actual confession of my sins there is another person present, my priest-confessor. After my confession, every member of the church is present.

In the life of Church there is not loneliness, there is always brotherhood/sisterhood in Christ.

So, sister in Christ, Katherine let me advise you to seek for a spiritual father/mother that will guide you for a proper preparation.

This person is not the person (god-father/god-mother) that guides us in baptism. I say this because someone may confuse one ministry with the other.

Of course, readings from books and getting advices from other Christians will help us to understand the preparation methodology. But there is a huge distance between knowledge and practise. St. Chrysostom says: If I read an athletic guide for high speed running and therefore I have the knowledge of athletics I am in no means a runner. Practice makes all the difference. For becoming a runner I need a trainer who owns the knowledge of running as practicing experience. It is me that sweats as I run and I expect the reward to be awarded to me at the finish line, but without having the trainer in my side at my every step, I would have harmed myself and I would have never arrived at the finish line.

Let me finally say that, your quest for genuine confession is a gift given by the Holy Spirit. Keep this gift in your heart, as the dearest off all virtues. For me, it is a heart moving experience to meet you, a newborn in Christ like the ones St Paul presented in his letter to Romans 8:15-16: “For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children”

May god bless us, all.

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Katherine:

As Fr. Gregory mentioned, 'list-ism' can become very mechanical or impersonal. On the other hand, it can be very beneficial if we make the list in a spirit of humble confession and repentance.

In other words, when we make lists, we do so to bring to light all of the ways that we have sinned and also use this list as a way to remember how we are weak and how to correct ourselves before we sin in the future. In other words, the list should be used by us as a tool to examine our conscience very deeply.

In my own experience of confession, I would be lost without a list. If I were to go to confession without first making a list, I would not confess many sins that I have committed and would forget that I even committed them. Consequently, I try to sit down the day of or day before confession and examine my conscience. I first examine my conscience without using any guide but my own conscience. After I have finished that, I use a list in a prayer book I have that uses the Ten Commandments as a basis. These questions probe me deeper.

Again, I speak from my own experience, but I have found that as I confess more frequently and more times, I start to remember my sins more quickly, sometimes quickly enough to stop the sin before it happens. Sometimes I remember one of the questions on the list and can make a conscious decision to stop myself before sinning. Other times it is too late, but I can still repent more quickly and clear my conscience sooner because I remember the list of questions and realize I have sinned. As I use the list of questions over and over, these questions become part of my conscience, so to speak.

Once again, I am not trying to undermine Fr. Gregory's point, but I am trying to show that just because we use a list as a tool does not mean we have to fall into list-ism. As with so many things, it is the spirit in which we use such tools that determines whether the tool will be useful or detrimental.

Forgive.

Aaron

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

I agree with that 100% Aaron. Lists are very useful as an aid to recollection and memory. As I think you have inferred I was rather thinking of lists intended to stimulate the examination of our consciences. If they are too prescriptive then they can hinder honesty. We need the help of the Holy Spirit and our confessor every step of the way to get to true repentance. I know the value of lists as you have described them though. I am a very forgetful person. It's doubtful whether I could function at all without lists! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/uhoh.gif

[Katherine Clark]

Dearest Fr. Gregory and all Friends in Christ,

Thank you all so much for sharing. May I summarize? 1)Repentence and confession are a priceless gift from God (Thank you)2) Repentence and confession are a fruit of prayer (sends me back to St. Silouan), so prayer is essential in preparation 3)a list and questions can be helpful in keeping us on track, but are not to be soley relied on mechanically in the process of this "examin of conscience", 4)making a list as part of the presentation can be helpful for those of us whose memory may falter. 5)a spiritual father/mother who will help us prepare for the "treatment" is important and highly desirable.As scary as it is it is our good God's treatment for our "sin - disease" and to be highly desired.

Is there anything else I have not gotten yet? God is Good! Have a blessed Peter and Paul fast!
Katherine

[Owen Jones]

It's not so much a question of our memory faltering that we right down our sins, but that we are all liars, and if we write it down and look at it, it is a little harder to lie.

[leandros]

Dear Owen Jones,

For a liar, his list of "truths" is just a list of lies.

What makes confession is to be presented in front of Christ and being as genuine liar as possible to say all our "lies" in many and frequent sessions.

What makes the difference is not to talk much and to say all the "truth". ALL the difference is in our meeting in the reality of "Christ meets ‘liar’ – ‘liar’ meets Christ".

Blessed are those who dare to present their genuine self of "weakness" before God, in the hope of His Mercy.

Heaven is a place full of genuine humans-"liars". Be afraid of becoming one of those who recollect ALL of their sins.

"In your light we see light".

St Gregory Palamas after many years of hard and honest and genuine ascetic life of repentance while being inside the “light”, he was praying to Theotokos: "Most Holy Virgin illume my darkness".

PS:I believe that I write this message in continuing your line of though.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

This is in regards to a question Byron raised a few weeks ago. I can't find the thread his question was actually part of but the theme seemed to fit here in any case.


We will not be punished or condemned in the age to be because we have sinned, since we were given a mutable & unstable nature. But we will be punished if, after sinning, we did not repent and turn from our evil ways to the Lord; for we have been given the power to repent, as well as the time in which to do so. Only through repentance shall we receive God's mercy, and not its opposite, His passionate anger. Not that God is angry with us: He is angry with evil. Indeed, the Divine is beyond passion and vengefulness, though we speak of its reflecting, like a mirror, our actions and dispositions, giving to each of us whatever we deserve.
St. Theognost. Philokalia

This actually is a footnote in a book by St. Nektarios of Aegina called Repentance & Confession (in English).

I bring this up because there are a number of terms the saint uses such as "offended Divine righteousness is compensated", "a true change of mind & expresses sorrow for the transgression of God's commandments, Whom one is seeking to propitiate", and "to seek to satisfy the Divine Righteousness and to propitiate God, so that he may cure his soul and achieve salvation."

I bring this up mainly in connection with the cultural/moral attitudes of society and how this affects the psychological/spiritual well-being (or not) of the individual person.
I remember a few years ago having a conversation with a mother about the behavioral problems of her son. She was a single mother and was describing the family situation in which her son found himself. While we were talking like a flash of revelation suddenly both of us realised how much a hierarchical society of the past contributed to the inner stability of children. And with this of course went a realisation of at least one of the reasons why children are often so unstable now.

The connection between St. Nektarios and now is more a question than an assertion. Here he is using language about our relationship with God that is very much out of favour and often described as "Roman Catholic". As with the writings of St. Tikhon of Zadonsk this is often ascribed to 'western influence'. I wonder though whether we are missing something essential here, an aspect of our relationship with God that brings an inner stability to the person that we are scarcely aware of nowadays. We dwell on the destructive aspect of dwelling on guilt in ones' relationship with God- but what of the positive corollary to this- the incredible stability & peace that comes from not being in an adversarial relationship to God.

I know that nowadays we tend to stress that "God is with us" - there is nothing wrong with this on one level. But the fact remains that we all sin and are all sinning continuously. And it is this which preoccupies us especially in terms of our relationship with God. This is not just a question of some 'guilt trip' but rather gets to the very heart of our relationship with God as a loving Father and if not dealt with properly leads to a constant underlying restlessness of soul.

Of course "God is with us". But modern man in fact usually feels just the contrary. Just as in his family relationships he senses that in his relationship with God something essential is missing- something which leads to instability, lack of peace & anxiety.

It could be then that the way that saints such as St Nektarios looked at our relationship with God bears consideration. That as in other things we must not throw the baby out with the bath-water. That our effort as Orthodox Christians is as much a kind of psychological attitude as a spiritual one.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

PS: Please keep me in your prayers as I am away for awhile.

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

I have been recommended by a holy monk that if one reads prayerfully the sermon on the mount it is very good preparation for confession.