Temptation and salvation

[Timothy Rukal]

I've heard that one of the desert fathers said that "without temptations there is no salvation." Is this true? If it is, I'm a little confused about what it means. Do we have to sin to be saved? What did the father mean?

Thanks

[Owen Jones]

I'm sure there are many ways to approach this question, Timothy, but I always like to ask people the following question: what took place immediately after Christ's baptism? I have yet to have anyone give me the correct answer -- He was tempted. And he was tempted with the ultimate temptation, to use his divine power for Good without giving his flock the free will to choose. He was offered political power over the world, if you will, to rule it -- in order to make it better. This is the best method of seduction that Satan can use against us, and is the cause of the one unforgivable sin -- to exercise religous power over another in a way that deprives him of his freedom. So the Father you cite makes sense when we realize that Christ was tempted far more than you or I, and yet was victorious by His obedience to His Father -- so we can be too.

But we can go back to Creation if we like and arrive at the same answer -- What kind of God would create a world that He knew He would have to save? The answer is a mystery to us, but in asking the question, it at least puts the problem of temptation in its proper perspective, as necessary to our salvation.

I'm sure there are others who approach this question differently, and probably have more convincing answers.

[Radu Tarcau]

Dear Timothy

"Without temptations there is no salvation" means that if there were no temptations, we would not fall and we would develop a false image and unsjutified claims about ourselves. So, God leaves us into tempations sometimes, so we can open our eyes to our weaknes and fall into His hands.

[Moses Anthony]

Timothy asked the question: Do we have to sin to be saved? and in answering Owen stated,


"What kind of God would create a world He knew He woud have to save. The answer is a mystery to us, but in asking the question it at least puts the problem of temptatin in its proper perspective, as necessary to our salvation."

Let's see if I can answer this in the way that I"m thinking.

This world was created as a place of habitation for the jewel of creation, man. Man was created to have fellowship with and comunion in the love of Almighty God. For this type of fellowship to be viable, man was given freedom to choose, or to disobey God. We know that man disobeyed and as a consequence, blood was shed to cover the nakedness
of mans rebellion against God(don't you just love the picture there). The nature of Humans was thus marred, and subsequently children were conceived in the image/nature of the parents, which was now fallen. Throughout all of this God remained the same God, the best picture of which we have in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. The best human explanation we have is in the words of St. John the Theologian, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth", and , "God is love". The bone of contention in all of this is: What God has revealed about himself to suffice the inquisitiveness of His creation, His creation has now said is insufficient. There's a deep profundity (to use an archaic word), and satisfaction to the simplicity of God. But as to the question of temptations necessity for salvation.

The reason we need to be "saved", is that without salvation we cannot have union with Almighty God. The necessary component for which is, the grace and mercy of a loving Creator. God existed without mankind, but in no way can mankind exist without God. God tempts no man, but every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lusts. One might ask then, "are my lusts necessary for my salvation?" The Holy Apostle Paul wrote it this way: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!" Temptation is the tool of Lucifer(the devil) to draw man away from God. The will of God is that all be saved, even those who have not sinned(been tempted) in the same manner as I have.

The candidate for salvation is the person who has inherited the nature of one who was "begotten" in the nature of Adam. Forgiveness is for the one who recognizes that they have fallen short of the requirement of God. That individual can then share the grace and mercy of God, in the perfect nature and righteousness of His son, Jesus Christ.

So then, what kind of God is God? God is the same kind of God as he was to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, Josiah, John, Ignatius, ....! And how should we understand temptation? To say that it is necessary for our salvation, is to imply that we could not be "saved" without first being tempted. NOT!!! There 's nothing more that can be added to what scripture and the Church have taught over the centuries.

I probably have written far beyond my knowledge, intentions and the necessity of the question.

An unworthy servant,
Moses

[Justin]

Tim, perhaps a clearer translation for us in modern English would be "without trials there is no salvation" (using the word temptation just confuses things, especially when we deal with whether God "tempts" us). I would agree with the idea that there is indeed no salvation without trials (with few exceptions), and in fact, that is my basic understanding of James 1:2-4 (My understanding can be found here (http://www.geocities.com/stainlesskings888/epistlejames.html) -- I try to follow only what the Church has taught, and teaches, as I work my way through the epistle of James, studying it. If you disagree with my conclusions, perhaps at least the references I give--biblical and patristic--will be of some value.)

God Bless

[Timothy Rukal]

Do I take it from some of the above posts, that people here don't think God tempts them? I don't mean this question to sound argumentative ..... I'm really curious to know what people think of the 'god temps' / 'god doesn't tempt' debate.

Thanks

[Justin]

IMO, God does not tempt with and by crating an evil option, but God does test us, and within the test evil options will exist. If you want to call a test that God uses a "temptation" (e.g., Gen. 22:1 in the KJV) then that's ok, it just has to be remembered that God does not give an evil option as part of a temptation (James 1:13-17), but only that he tests us and allows evil options(ie. God doesn't present or create the evil option, but also does not interfere with a force outside of God presenting the evil option).

When we pray that God "lead us not into temptation," then, we are asking God to preserve us and keep us safe, so that we have a good defense before the dread judgment seat of Christ. My 2 cents anyway (from what I've understood..)

[Gregory Myron]

I think there are plenty of examples in Scripture (Old Testament and New Testament) of God testing people. But, like Justin said, God's tests don't involve him giving evil options as one of the choices. But since there is evil in the world, and sometimes we need to build up our own loyalty and faith, God provides us with 'tests' so that we can learn to follow him.

Gregory

[Owen Jones]

I've always been skeptical of arguments designed to get God off the hook. While evil is a choice we make, God often challenges us in stark terms to make those choices, speaking through his prophets and apostles. Moses said we have a choice: life or death, blessings or curses. Christ was tempted more than any human being ever, by Satan of course, not by God himself, but it's important to note that it was right after His baptism, so God did not innoculate him against Satan's temptations. And what was the temptation? To do good.

Also, let's not forget that God knew in advance that Adam would defy His will. Yet He created the world anyway. Which, I think, means that the matters we are discussing are somewhat above our pay grade.

[Jeff Beranek]

Timothy:

As regards your original question, the father you have in mind is the ur-monk, Anthony the Great. The saying, as given in Sr. Bendedicta's collection, is

He [Anthony] also said, 'Whoever has not experienced temptation, cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.' He even added, 'Without temptations on-one can be saved.'

[Richard Domina]

There are a lot of things being said in this quote about temptation. First of all I can't really be tempted if I don't see the sin of it. So being tempted is already a step above the grey matter of worldliness. Second, to be in the place of temptation is to be alive and aware. This is the place where the soul vibrates. If I succumb to temptation and know i've sinned then the soul is still vibrating with remorse and acts accordingly. If I'm victorious I'm vibrating even more. This process will lead to an even greater temptation down the road which take me even deeper into the hallowed place of conscience. There is a new and finer quality of life in the place where the soul struggles. If there were no reason to be engaged there (temptation) then it would not have to move or vibrate. I hope this was of use. God bless. Rick