The Trinity as sun with essence, rays, heat

[Theopesta]

DEAR all:

I need to know to what extent the interpretation of trinity as the sun that:
1- the essence of light is GOd the father
2- the rays:GOD the SON
3- the heat:GOD the HOLY SPIRIT

many thanks, in one christ
theopesta

[Father David Moser]

This is an analogy used by the fathers to try and give a limited picture of the unknowable nature of the Trinity in an image that is accessible to our human reason and understanding. As with any analogy it is limited in scope, has many "flaws" and cannot be "pushed" or it will break down rather rapidly. It is certainly not something upon which to base a theological rationale.

Archpr. David Moser

[Vasilis Kirikos]

I have never head that analogy before. I like Theopesta's analogy. I'm uncertain if it is because I have learned to love the sweet nature of Theopesta or if it is the actual analogy. But I see this analogy in her sweet, kind nature.

I recall another analogy said by my priest. It is the analogy of the three natures of water; and this analogy appeals to my science background. Water can be liquid, vapor or solid. Yet they are still one and the same..all three are water.

But as Father Moser said, what can compare to God? Certainly there is nothing. And, therefore, there can be no true analogy. However, I do like Theopesta's analogy.

[Theopesta]

thanks a lot our father Moser for your obliging clarification

our venerable father Vasilis, I can hardly express my feelings towards your gracious words and intelligent mind, the water's anaology is new for me and very expressive

I hope you all enjoy with holy moments in the litergy
theopesta

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Theopesta, Vasilis, Fr David and others,

The light / ray of light / heat from light analogy was extremely popular in the second century, as an early attempt at articulating the manner in which the three persons of the Trinity could be conceived as distinct, yet also one. As Fr David said, it is an analogy with limitations; but it is interesting to see how early members in the Church were working to articulate the mystery of God as three-yet-one.

INXC, Matthew

[Patrick Walsh]

There is another analogy which calls to mind that the word "logos" is a participle of the Greek verb "I speak,"

The Father is the Speaker.
The Son is the sound of the Words.
The Spirit is the breath of the sound.

Again, this is just an analogy.

Patrick

[Trudy]

In my 5th & 6th grade Sunday School class we just discussed this very topic. I used both analogies listed; water and logos. It was a good thing too because one 6th grade boy said, "Oooooooh, there aren't two gods? just one?" We launched an excellent discussion on those two questions, I assure you! Glory to God!

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Athanasia,

Very interesting to hear your account of a sixth-grader's reaction to the kinds of analogies that have been mentioned here -- particularly inasmuch as it serves as a good reminder that even 'flawed' or 'deficient' analogies, when taken in some kind of global perspective, still are potent and powerful in certain contexts. (And not simply with young children!)

I should probably clarify that I don't regard either the light or word analogies as 'flawed' per se. With reference to what they seek to relate, they work markedly well.

INXC, Matthew

[Owen Jones]

Dear Matthew,

I am trying to recall of we have had a thread on Beauty? Is there a particular Patristic text that comes to mind regarding the Trinity as Beauty? What Greek term or terms are used?

Thanks.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Owen, you wrote:


I am trying to recall of we have had a thread on Beauty?

Yes, there have been a few that touched on it.

A. A thread from 2003 called Aesthetics (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/870.html) started on other matters, but eventually migrated into a discussion on beauty (though largely with an eye towards morality/ethics).

B. Perhaps more pertinently, a discussion from 2002 called Question on Salvation (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/5341.html#POST1991), addressed beauty specifically in the realm of God drawing creation to himself (to see the whole thread in order, read Archive to 14 Oct 2002 (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/6557.html?1034620762), then archive to 16 Oct 2002 (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/6561.html?1034784333), then the final/current page (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/5341.html#POST1991)).

C. If you're really keen to dig through some of the past discussions, spend some time in the truly immense Intellect, Question and Orthodoxy (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/7070.html) thread (600+ messages). The conversation there has covered four years and hit on all sorts of topics, but several have been very good assessments of beauty: e.g. Richard McBride's post and following discussion (http://www.monachos.net/cgi-bin/mb/show.cgi?tpc=4225&post=4502#POST4502).

There are dozens of other threads and messages that relate in one way or another to beauty. The discussion community search engine (http://www.monachos.net/cgi-bin/mb/search.cgi) is the quickest way to scan for them.

INXC, Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

I found this thread after thinking, how could I explain the Trinity to someone who insisted it meant we had three gods, and looking for a thread that dealt with this. Analogies don't seem to work entirely satisfactorily -they tend to fail to keep the sense that the Persons are entirely and completely God. I didn't realise/think until recently that the 'begetting' of the Son and the 'procession' of the Holy Spirit are not 'past perfect' but infinitely 'present continuous': the Son is eternally being begotten, and was not 'begotten'. (Have I got that right?) It's hard to get the idea that the Father is the Godhead, the Source, and yet the Son and Holy Spirit are in no sense less than the Father. The nearest I can get is that the Father 'eternally makes Himself Three within the same essence'. Has anyone found/come up with a persuasive description of the Holy Trinity that doesn't involve a lot of stuff about hypostases? I realise there must be a sense in which this is a mystery which one either accepts or rejects. Also, does it make any difference to which Person we pray? When I pray 'to God', I sometimes stop and wonder, to Whom am I praying?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Has anyone found/come up with a persuasive description of the Holy Trinity that doesn't involve a lot of stuff about hypostases?

No, I don't think so. Hypostasis for the Fathers refers to the substantial reality of each of the three Persons of the Holy Trinity so that the Word and Holy Spirit are not just modalist projections of the Father.

Each comes from the Father in distinctly Personal ways which is what 'begotten of' for the Word and 'proceeds from' for the Holy Spirit refers to. At the same time it is the personal aspects of the Hypostases that are the ground of unity for the Holy Trinity since each Person is within the Others in an inscrutable way.

It is the Hypostatic reality of the Holy Trinity which is the basis of its unity is so that when we pray to God we are actually praying to the Holy Trinity.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

Thank you, Father. As has often been said, if God could be understood, He would not be God.