Who is this Jesus?

[Warren Bensinger]

Father's Bless and other's of the community

I meet with a older (78 years) man once a week for conversation at a local coffee shop. He has been going to a Free Methodist church for about 35 years. He has sung in many quartets and choires and even been President of the Gospel quartet group in the mid-west. He is very well read, on a varity of topics but especialy Christianity. (from of course the protistant view point)

We have discussed without discontent our faith's and I have tried to present Orthodoxy to him as best as I can. He has read all of the books I've given him to study on Orthodoxy and likes what he reads.

What's the problum then you ask?

The problum is he dosen't believe in Jesus as the Christ. He is a monotheist and sees the Old testiment from the Jewish stand point. All of the referances to Jesus or the Word or Logos in the O.T. relate to past events that have happened or are just stories to teach a moral ending.

He thinks that the N.T.'s referances to Jesus or the Word are mis-statements or changes to the text adding Jesus where it should just say GOD.

He dosen't beleave in a Holy Spirit eather and every mention to that is just God's Spirit.

I have thought many times that I should just walk away because we have no point of origin to talk about but I don't want to. I have read in the Fathers and the early history of the church where there was a lot of discussion about Jesus and how much of him is human and how much is God but in all the cases I see most everyone agrees on the virgin birth and that He is at least at some point in His life partly God.

My question is, do any of you have any books that deal with this in the early church? I have looked at some protestant books that even I can see he would blow away because he has studied this topic most of his life. His Grandfather was a Curcit Riding Preacher accutually on horse back. His Dad was a died in the wool fundimentalist. He couldn't talk to his father so I wrote him.

I've babbled too long.
If any of you have any suggestions please help.

Thanks
Learning to attend.
warren

[Melissa]

Dear Warren,

Forgive me if I've misread your post #22, but are you beginning to doubt - or are you just looking for more information for your friend? If the latter - well, if his heart is hardened against Christ, more books probably won't help if he's read so much already. Your continued friendship and clarity about your beliefs might eventually help, though, as long as being with him isn't causing you to doubt.

Again, forgive me if I've misunderstood.
Melissa

[Warren Bensinger]

Melissa, bless you.


I'm sorry I didn't make that very clear did I?

No!!! I'm not doughting at all! Even though I'm a new convert, (2&1/2 years old) I know in my heart there is no other home for me than Holy Orthodoxy.

I am constantly praying for understanding because there is so much I thought I knew that I didn' know and then some things that I need to understand in a new light or completely change my way of thinking on other things.

My question is - I see, hear and read a lot about Jesus but it's alway from the view point that we know He is God. I would like to see where some of the Fathers might have discussed this with some of the Jew's or Pagans. Maybe someone later or even today has written something on this topic.

Thanks again Melissa for keeping me on track.

Learning to forgive.
warren

[Gilbert Gandenberger]

Warren, the best Patristic work I've seen on the Manhood & Divinity of Jesus Christ is the Tome of Pope Leo. It was read at the first Council of Chalcedon, and was instrumental in the overthrow of Nestorius. It is available on line, only about four or so pages, and expresses our faith beautifully.

In the history of the church, there are fairly clear definitions of who is a heretic and how that should be viewed. This man holds heretical views, so is at least what is termed a "material" heretic - he holds views in opposition to the clear beliefs of the church that are contained within the Nicene creed. A "formal" heretic is one who holds these beliefs, knows clearly that they are in opposition to the Church's explicit teaching on the creedal issues, and teaches others these errant beliefs. A material heretic may be someone who is confused, misled, mis-informed. A formal heretic has none of these extenuating circumstances.

I did a quick Google search, found the tome here:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-12/Npnf2-12-33.htm#P1063_247402

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Gilbert and Warren,

The text of St Leo's Tome is also found in a slightly updated version on this web site, at:

http://www.monachos.net/patristics/christology/leo_tome.shtml

INXC, Matthew

[Christopher]

I used to argue ad infinitum against Orthodoxy (both from a Protestant and later an atheist perspective) and looking back at my own arguments (wrong, of course) and the responses I get from others who are like I was then, is that one cannot "convince" somebody intellectually of the Truth, if 1) they do not accept the NT as the word of God (despite St Paul saying that it is) and 2) one does not have faith in God (rather than faith in one's own arguments).

St Barsanuphius of Optina said that when people who did not have faith came to him in order to be "enlightened", he found that God did not reveal anything about them and hence he could not give them the same consolation that he was able to give those who came to him with faith.

And so it was with me too before I started to have faith and then bit by bit things fell into place and suddenly the Truth stares you in the face and you think how was it possible for me NOT to believe.

For me personally, what really gave me the push to have faith, is the lives of the Saints. Unlike any other religion (I think), Orthodoxy has an unbroken tradition of saints going back from the OT through the Apostles, the Church Fathers and up to the modern age. Here there are innumerable examples of little "proofs" that God exists and that His Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Whenever I come across a theological concept that I cannot grasp or explain to myself (e.g. how can Jesus Christ have existed eternally...), I say to myself, if it was good enough for St Seraphim, then it is certainly good enough for me!

I would suggest giving him books on modern saints (that avoids the usual response that they are just "myths") where they have clearly worked miracles and believed in the teachings of the Orthodox Church.

May God bless.

Christopher.

[Owen Jones]

The only way to truly "know" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, is to follow in his footsteps, to practice what he practiced. That is the challenge. One might be inspired by reading the lives of the saints, ancient and contemporary, but do we (I) have the courage to begin practicing just one of their virtues, just for today? For example, in all of our relationships, try giving up power over them, just for one day. Do not argue with anyone, mentally or out loud, just for one day. Do not lie, either out loud, or mentally, about anyone or anything, just for one day. That means, don't even try twisting something to one's own advantage. Do not say anything to anyone that is the least bit manipulative. Try it just for one day. When the urge strikes to speak passionately about something, keep it zipped. Just for one day. And pray. It does not have to have great passion or zeal. It could be out of a book, or just repeat the Trisagion, without any vain expectations for answers, just for today. Commit a legitimate act of charity for another, anonymously, without any expectation of reward, just for today. Now, to be sure, anyone can do this and not be a Christian. A buddhist or an atheist could do any of these things. But what happens inside when one practices these virtues? And do we pay close attention? Pay close attention, just for one day, to all of your inner thoughts. What are they? Are they good? Or are they evil? Or muddled and confused and intemperate.

This is the way of Christ, and unfortunately I think that we all too often wish to substitute dogmatic assertions, as important as they are, for the real truth, which is the transformation that takes place when we follow in Christ's footsteps, when we actually practice His virtues. When he says, I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, this can be inverted to provide more clarity for us, by putting "the Way" in front. By following His Way, we become Christ. This is the scandal of Christianity, the thing which makes it sound so vainly boastful to people who would rather settle for just good sound morality, or some good rules and regulations, or maybe some certitude that they lack in a confusing world and are searching for cut and dried answers. It involves great risk to surrender one's body and mind to a way of life that runs counter to everyday expectations in the world, the esteem of others, the desire for self-esteem and self-preservation, advancement, etc. One needs to first become very uncertain about one's self in order to surrender the self, to bury the self and to replace this self, which really has no solid existence in the first place, with the Way of Christ. The proof that Jesus is the Christ, therefore, is a process of opening of the soul that is heretofore closed, too self-reliant, too self-assured. That must first be cracked like an egg shell. But it comes differently for different people. It might be an intellectual whole in their arugments. It may be something in their lives that they have no control over and won't admit that they don't. There is no rule book or recipe. Christ dealt with people "where the were" so to speak, not with a formula, but because he could look clean through their souls and know what they needed to hear. We all have that potential capacity.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Christopher,

Concerning being able to accept the word of Christ through Holy Orthodoxy, you say, "one does not have faith in God (rather than faith in one's arguments)." Often we are searching (or at least I am) for why there is such a massive falling away from Christ nowadays; why in our churches indifference is so prevalent. In this one sentence you sum it up- we have and are only taught to have faith in ourselves; that we can safely build a world on the foundation of 'self'. Of course with the eyes of True Faith we can see that this faith in ourselves is a delusion; that alone without Christ I have nothing to offer except selfishness and instability. But until then...

Then Owen you say, "the proof that Jesus is the Christ, therefore, is a process of opening the soul that is heretofore closed, too self-reliant, too self-assured. That must first be cracked like an egg shell." But how can this be done when selfishness is so self-inebriating, when we have surrounded ourselves with so many 'idols' (interesting how our society uses the word so much- a pop 'idol', a movie 'idol')that are like spiritual crack that feeds selfishness? What breaks the egg-shell? The two of you said it SO WELL (for which many thanks); we must lose faith in selfishness.

Many of those who come to the Church do so because they have 'fallen through the cracks'- my first spiritual father used to say that the best converts are the ones who fell off the ship.

That's how their 'shells' first cracked. But what of the rest of the world? There is a thread that runs half-hidden through Great Lent every year which I notice and then forget right after. On weekdays at the 6th Hour the Prophecy of Isaiah is read: its message is straight-forward but deep: the people of God have fallen away from Him massively (apostasy); to turn the people back God will raise up a 'foreign' people who will strike with the sword to humble the people, to try to bring the people to their senses; then there will be a remnant that will make up the Final Restored Kingdom with Christ as True King. Does any of this resonate today?

Lent & Pascha are not just 'personal matters'; exotic activites in an exotic church; each Lent and Pascha are images of the cosmic drama that we are already part of and that our world is moving towards. The egg shell of the world will be broken.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Before Thy Cross We Bow Down in Worship

[Melissa]

Dear Christopher, Owen, and Father Raphael,

Well said.

Father - it does resonate. People don't want to hear it, though, because they'd have to change too much and they don't really believe it matters. It breaks my heart to see this in people I know and love, let alone in the rest of the world. And in myself, because I don't try hard enough. I thank God that He gave us prayer, and a church of community, so I/we have somewhere to go with our sorrow-that-will-become-joy, by the grace of God.

Melissa

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Christopher,

Thank you for your recent post. In it, you wrote:


One cannot "convince" somebody intellectually of the Truth, if 1) they do not accept the NT as the word of God (despite St Paul saying that it is) and 2) one does not have faith in God (rather than faith in one's own arguments).

Just so that we don't let important tangents slide by, St Paul never says this. It is one of the most common mis-readings of his words. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

INXC, Matthew

[Christopher]

Dear Matthew,

I tried to find the passage I thought referred to the Bible being the word of God, but could not find the passage that I had thought I had read. It sounds like you may know which one it is; I would be grateful if you could let me know and also provide the correct interpretation.

As for the teaching of the Church, do we believe that the Bible is the word of God, or can there be "human errors" in the text (errors in the spiritual/theological sense)?

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr., Melissa, et al,

This is not intended as a criticism of you, heaven forbid, but a general observation, that as Christians we should not wring our hands about how terrible a world it is, or pass judgment against people en masse, because we seem to live in an age of un-faith. There is something Providential about all things, good and bad, and we should have confidence that God is firmly in control. Living in a secular age carries with it certain burdens and temptations, to be sure, but I think God is perhaps allowing, perhaps even causing the world to go through an extended desert experience, for the same reasons that he caused the ancient Hebrews to wander in the desert for 40 years. And of course it is a Bible demand not to fret about the evil other men do. We should instead strive to obey His commandments, and perhaps find some niche in which we can serve him faithfully by serving others. Jeremiah really has a monopoly on the jeremiad, and we should probably not attempt one upmanship in that regard.

I am fond of a particular philosopher who, in the early 70's predicted the end of the Soviet Union by the end of that decade. He was off by 9 years. But all of the supposed experts were saying that the Soviets were extremely strong in 1989 when their empire collapsed. He also said that secular societies will inevitably undergo a spiritual revival, because it is not in man's constitution to live without God. To live so unnaturally can only last so long. The question is what form that spiritual revival will take, but surely one form will be an attraction to the monastic life, by people today who are the arch hedonists and skeptics. The problem is really with the educated and wealthy elites, the opinion leaders, the artists and scientists and beautiful people. These are the people who set the tone for the society as a whole. In ancient Rome, many of them gave up their wealth and entered monasteries, when people lost their faith in the Roman state and the state religion. The same thing will happen in "modern" secular societies.

[Melissa]

Owen, re: your post #775 - I couldn't figure out what prompted it...

I looked for hw. and j. throughout this thread and do not see them. I do see a discussion of the age we live in, and it appears to me to be a wonderful, complex, sad and frantic age, but I don't see the judgment in that. I agree with you that there is something Providential in everything, so if I sounded somewhere like I was "handwringing" or passing judgment, I regret that. I believe it's faithful to care, have compassion and show it, and even to discuss the nature of the age we live in. It seems to me we must do that, in order to do what you suggested so well and cearly - We should instead strive to obey His commandments, and perhaps find some niche in which we can serve him faithfully by serving others. Any time we discuss various types of people, en masse or individually, we could sound like we are, and may be, making judgements. We may also be (hopefully) making distinctions in order to understand ourselves and our relationship to God more clearly. I imagine that's what your philosopher was doing at the end of your paraphrase about him. Making distinctions, not judgments, I mean.

That said, I'm taking your post to heart because I was a little sensitive to it http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif, so there is a lesson from God in it that I should heed. Thank you for being the bearer of the message; I so often grow in faith from your posts.

Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Owen,

Thank you for your post. Yes certainly we must be careful about the 'hand-wringing' & being too 'doom and gloom' about the world. It is all too easy to feel sorry for oneself and to end up simply bitter and angry in regards to the world.

But the Lord Himself prophetically said that the 'love of many will grow cold'(Mt.24:12)and St Paul & the other Apostles faithfully witnessed to this. The Lord has told us that the state of the world will become worse, less faithful, not better. And the cause of this is not God but us for which we should weep much. Sadly I do not agree Owen that many people in our society will 'return to monasteries.' This is not borne out by what we see occurring before us. Forgive me- but I think that the opinion of this Russian philosopher is not scriptural- that "society will inevitably undergo a spiritual revival" perhaps temporarily but St Seraphim of Sarov spoke of a brief spiritual revival and then a falling away.

Certainly we must rejoice at those who do turn to Christ and His Church but most Orthodox priests feel that we are going through a deep spiritual crisis within the Church which reflects our society; I believe that objectively our society is in a virtual state of apostasy.

But what to do? A few days ago we received through our clergy list an article about St Silouan of the Holy Mt. This great & humble saint struggled for 15 years in agonised seperation from God; as he prayed demons would jump in front of the icons to torment him; finally the saint cried out to Christ imploring Him what to do, to which Christ replied "keep your mind in hell and despair not."

This I believe Owen is the path that Christ has asked us to embark on; this desert of sin with all of its tragic consequences is not of His making. In this hell, by growing in true compunction and humility, because we recognise our condition, Christ is saying, "do not be afraid. I have not abandoned you. Simply repent and I am with you."

You see Owen- this is different from the 'optomistic view'. I am guessing that as we enter that path we will lose our bitterness and it will be replaced by 'weeping for humanity'. We are not free yet of the sin of bitterness nor of frustration because our pain over sin is not yet completely pure. We must help each other to endure that fire of pain over the seperation of man from God; everytime our brother or sister falls from the weight we must help them back up to take their cross again.

In the love of Christ- Fr R

[Owen Jones]

Everything is temporary, Father. The physical world is temporary. Until the end, there will always be cycles of birth, growth and decay in societies, just as there are in individual lives. And we live today in the degenerative phase of what was once optimistic liberalism. Unfortunately, I think, there is a tendency among some belivers today to claim that they see some particularly unique signs of apocalyptic portent that enables them to predict an imminent end of the world, or some cataclysm. And what I fear most is when certain Christians act as if that would be preferable to the current environment of spiritual annui. When this type of thing is preached today, it typically has the opposite of the desired impact on listeners, leading to a kind of spiritual torpor, rather than sincere repentence and the desire to live a more holy life. And there just seems to be something wrong with the tone of it.

I personally do not see any unique signs of the apocalypse as an immanent reality, (I'm not implying that that is your argument), just the same old stuff (there is nothing new under the Sun). And I think it's a fundamentally negative attitude about life and people to suggest that Christian asceticism is not going to attract more and more people as the decadent phase of our society becomes more obviously a dead end. Which is why we should pray for our monastics and do what we can to encourage our children to become monastics.

As for the cause and effect issue, I often marvel, given the totality of the Biblical witness, when people today are aghast at the prospect that God would put people or societies to the test. We should look at hard times as an opportunity for God to demonstrate His Grace, while avoiding the feeling that the world is some kind of hell. that's a gnostic inversion of the Orthodox understanding of Creation.

I'm sure you have had plenty of experience with terminally ill people, especially the elderly. And there are notable differences in how people deal with it, one negative and one, alas for lack of a better sounding word, positive. The negative approach is bitter, or complaining, always focused on self, overly demanding of others. The other is calm and serene and a blessing for others. So how we respond to a society in its decadent phase is no different. We cannot step outside of it, and pretend that we are not part of it or superior to it. At the same time, we can practice the ancient principle of detachment and exemplify a spiritually joyful attitude. Of course, this admonition applies to myself more than anyone else.

[Christopher]

In response to Owen's post:

I would have the following questions for anybody who argues against believing that we may well see the end of the world approaching.

1) Does the Church not teach that we should consider ourselves close to the end of the world always and live our lives accordingly?

2) Have not many elders and saints given us indications that we are living in the "latter days" (e.g. St Seraphim of Sarov, Elder Paisius the New)?

[Owen Jones]

What I said has nothing to do with 1) above. Regarding #2), I suppose it begs the question of what one means, or intends to mean, by "latter days." In a sense, every moment post Pentacost is in the "latter days." Although it's a Jewish concept.

Every Christian in history who has predicted an immiment end of the world, according to one scenario or another, has been wrong. Even saints can be wrong about some things, especially when it comes to predicting the future. So I think it best to leave apocalyptic visions to the visionaries, and avoid morbid expectations. Certainly the world will end someday. It had a beginning and it will have an end. I just see no particular signs that the end is near, distinct from any other period of history in which fear and doubt were the rule. In any case, one ought not to require a vision of the Apocalypse to practice Christian virtue today. These teachings stand on their own, and do not require apocalyptic expectations as a motivation. In fact, historically, Orthodoxy has tended to put the damper on apocalyptic preaching, since it tends to confusion among the laity and outright heresy among certain prophetic types, such as chiliasm and millenarianism. One reason why apocalyptic passages of Scripture are not typically part of the Lexicon.

Millenarianism is decidedly on the rise among Christians, orthodox and non-Orthodox. In fact, recent surveys show that the overwhelming majority of "evangelicals" in the U.S. expect the apocalypse to come soon, followed by an earthly rule by Christ for 1,000 years, which is a sign of mass psychosis more than anything. By all means, be ready, but Christ admonishes us not to try to guess the day or the hour.

Apocalypse as a true theological concept is not really about history in any case. It's about seeing what is really there underlying what can be seen on the surface of reality. By the way, periods in which apocalyptic scenarios abound usually go hand in hand with conspiracy theories and anti-Semitism.

[Christopher]

Dear Owen,

I have to admit that I often get dismayed at your posts; even though there are elements that I agree with, often the overall tone and conclusion of what you write seem to come from the head, rather than the heart. Maybe like me you prefer to teach, rather than to learn from others?

I agree with what you wrote:


"Do not argue with anyone, mentally or out loud, just for one day. (...) When the urge strikes to speak passionately about something, keep it zipped."

I pray that God may "teach me to see my own faults and not condemn my brother". In this regard I constantly fail. I ask you to forgive me for judging you.

May God bless you.

Christopher

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Monachos Community,

I feel I was the one who began the negative tone of this thread. Please let us mutually stop any more postings that are critical or especially hurtful on this particular topic. This is Great Lent and even amidst our common struggle we must preserve love and compassion. Again forgive me.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Warren Bensinger]

Fathers and Others:

Maybe this mornings Monachos "word from the Fathers" would go good here.

Therefore be eager for more frequent gatherings for the thanksgiving [eucharist] to God and for His glory. For when you meet frequently the forces of Satan are annulled and his destructive power is cancelled in the concord of your faith. There is nothing better than peace, in which all hostility is abolished, whether it comes from the powers of heaven or the powers of earth.
--St Ignatius of Antioch

Back to the reason I started this thread, my friend that dosen't beleave in Jesus...

Thanks to Mathew and Gilbert I looked up the Tome of St. Leo and copied it and took it to my friend last Wed.. I'm interested to see what he thinks and will try to post a reply as to his thoughts after I find out.

As to the direction that this thread took over the past few post's, could it be that the Church is doing her job of being a hospital to us or the lack of it that is causing a problum?

If we (the body of Christ or the Church) are being cured from the passions of our hearts and socity problums are being affected by it, wouldn't that bring the masses to the hospital to find out whether they can be cured to?

We have a couple from our chruch in Greece that tell of Muslums that come to Orthodox services to get anoited with oil in hopes of cure for there problums. They do that because they know something real is there.

Gone on too long again.

Still learning to love.
warren

[Melissa]

Warren - Your words are like cool water, from which we all benefit. God bless you.

I've recently discovered that one meaning of my name is "the seeking one" after bees who search for sustenance, flower to flower. Monachos is one place where I seek the Truth, and I appreciate all of you who help me find it by your faith, examples and generous sharing of what is important to you.

I pray you all are having a blessed Lent, filled with discovery.
In Christ's love,
Melissa

[Herman Blaydoe]

End times don't matter, THIS is the only time YOU and I have, regardless. It is OUR END TIME. We WILL stand before Christ one way or another. Our "end time" might be tonight in a car accident on the way to Vespers, or 20 years from now. Or Christ may come in Glory.

The "End Times" have been predicted since the 1st century. The days of persecution were certainly the end times for many martyrs, but not for the Church. It will come like a thief in the night, or just like we sing during the Matins services of Holy Week: "The bridgegroom comes in the middle of the night and blessed is he whom He shall find watching!"

I'm with Owen on this one.

Herman

[Owen Jones]

It's interesting that in an orthodox forum one cannot really talk about Christ without talking about everything else: Creation, history, the Church, etc. Whereas in the West, in Roman Catholicism, one gets the impression some times that there is no Christ apart from the institution, and in Protestantism, there is no Christ, apart from one's personal devotion. Maybe a little more head knowledge is precisely what we need to restore some balance to the meaning of Christ.

Regarding History, I don't think there is an objective reality called history, only what Ecclesiastes says about it: The Sun riseth and the Sun seteth and there is nothing new under the Sun.

The fact that Christian civiliation changed the calender to divide history into a before Christ and an after Christ, says less about history as such, and more about the transformation of consciousness that is brought about by the Parousia. But dividing history into periods is not a Christian innovation. It has frequently been done in order to establish divine authority in the present political regime. The fact that many Christians today seem to find evidence of the end times in current events is simply the flip side of that. The idea that history will continue on for at least another 2,000 years I see as a humbling thought, that what I say and do, or how I FEEL, during my brief time alloted is relatively insignificant. By insisting that one finds proof of the end times is really a psychological tool that many people use to find meaning in their lives that perhaps they otherwise would lack. Which I think gets us back to the basic ascetic virtues of patient endurance and detachment and sobriety. Transfiguration is not something that is easily forced onto the historical plane without tending toward certain heretical tendencies. I think it best that Christians cultivate a kind of joyful insousiance in regards to historical circumstances, good and bad. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Community Members:

While reading and re-reading the posts on this thread, I cannot help but wonder what wise words Fr. Averky would give us.

I appreciate what Herman wrote in post #162, ***It will come like a thief in the night, or just like we sing during the Matins services of Holy Week: "The bridgegroom comes in the middle of the night and blessed is he whom He shall find watching!"*** Coming from an evangelical background and the end times being the major focus of many a conversation, I think it has the tendency to make a person feel comfortable with the fact that they "are saved" and won't be "left behind" and a goodly number of those around them will not be saved. Per Owen's first paragraph in post #776, I agree, and would say it can make a person arrogant and prideful. Not focusing on their own salvation and need for the Healing Physician and His medicine. Warren's posted words of St. Ignatius in #24 are poignant reminder for me and where my focus should be....to be more eager for more frequent gatherings of the eucharist. That is so beautiful to contemplate!

A young friend and I are sharing a verse or two from the bible to ponder daily through Lent. Today's verse and desert father's words seem most timely to this topic (at least to me). Perhaps they will be a blessing to another? Abba Xanthios said, "A dog is better than I am, for he has love and he does not judge." James 4:12 "There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?" Glory to God that we are to love one another and not judge come the end of time! Loving one another is hard enough! :-)

Warren, you are in my unworthy prayers, as is your friend. May God give you His wisdom and words as you share who Jesus is with him. May God grant him ears to hear and eyes to see and when that day comes, we will all rejoice in the good news that you will share with us. I hope I can be as faithful a friend as you, and be courageous to share the love of Christ with others.

Please let us remember Fr. Averky as he has his cataract surgery this coming Monday (I think he said). And let us remember his oft repeated words: just love God and trust Him.

If I have offended anyone, please forgive me. Much on this thread has given me good food for thought and all I desire to do is think outloud.
Humbly yours,
Trudy (unworthy sinner)

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Monachos community,

During the Orthodox Liturgy most of us attended this morning we heard in the creed the words, "and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end." Hopefully none of us walked out at that point and said, 'we're only supposed to be focused on the now'.

What caused certain among us to mis-read the meaning of other's words even after an attempted explanation that this interpretation was not their intent? Why this focus on the 'end times' when the actual comments were about the apostasy of our times? The two are different though interconnected things.

None of us (except perhaps for some of the greatest saints; will some of us call them deluded also-shame on us!) know when THE End Time is. But we are certainly commanded by Christ to discern the spirit of the times; in fact this commandment is intimately connected to Great Lent & especially in the first three days of Holy Week.

When the holy experience of St Silouan of Mt Athos was offered we immediately returned to our 'End Times' theme- why did we not listen? I have a suggestion for you- it is because the saints' advice was "keep your mind in hell and despair not." As was already openly explained this means to keep ourselves in that terribly painful space of our & others' seperation from God. That I believe is what we are running from- let's tell the truth- we don't want to love others because it's simply too painful.

What those of us who were talking about apostasy were trying to share with you dear bros & srs was something we personally live through every day. A son or daughter who will not listen and goes off and destroys themselves; a parishioner who does not take that soul-saving advice of his priest and likewise causes great harm to themselves.. and the examples are many. Are you like 'Job's friends': 'just love', 'it'll get better'...? Again it is interesting that the example of two ways to react to suffering are given us precisely in Holy Week in the Book of Job.

This is a time of apostasy; in my old, tattered Oxford dictionary under the word "apostasy" it says "abandonment of religious faith, vows, principles...". No matter how many replies you make to this I will not cease the common-sense observation that this definition applies to our times.

To love God and trust in Him does not mean to retreat inside ourselves to some place we feel the Lord will not reach "with His outstretched arm." Our brothers & sisters all over the world are already suffering in a way we do not understand yet. Will we force our comfortable sense of salvation bred on shopping malls and 'everything's alright' on them? Shame on us!

Only one thing is coming and we had better prepare ourselves in sobriety and love for God.
"The Lord sends a message against Jacob, and it falls on Israel. And all the people know it, Ephraim & the inhabitants of Samaria, asserting in pride & arrogance of heart, 'the bricks have fallen down , but we will rebulid with smooth stones; the sycamores have been cut down, but we will replace them with cedars.' Therefore the Lord raises against them adversaries from Rezin, and spurs their enemies on...and they devour Israel with gaping jaws. In spite of all this His anger does not turn away, and His hand is still stretched out." (Isaiah 9:8-12).

To the next posters- please come down into the tornado of our suffering and share it with us; do not be 'Job's friends' who burn him with their words.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

I guess the apostacy of the last five hundred years or so in Western societies is new news to some people, or some new concept. It's old news to me, and I guess what I am looking for from preaching is more than just another sermon on apostacy, or an appeal to share in other peoples' suffering but rather practical instruction on how to actually benefit from suffering, that we should actually be grateful when we suffer, and that there are practical teachings in the Church's tradition for acquiring joy in suffering and peace in suffering.

Instead, my distinct impression from encountering many Christians who are focused on the apostacy issue, or the end times, or final judgment, is that some of them have just as much, if not more resentment than the average person, because they cannot tolerate living in an apostate age, and they want God to bring it to an end, to rescue them in effect from a world that they experience as a prison. I'm not convinced that's the right spirit. It has a gnostic tinge to it, as well as just being depressing, a la Oswald Spengler. These observations are not directed to anyone personally on this forum since I don't know anyone personally and in any case it would be none of my business. So I hope no one implies that somehow I am taking on anyone here personally.

The key ingredient of the apostacy is the view that suffering of any type is evil and wrong and that the forces of secular society must be arrayed in order to eliminate suffering through social programs. The Church, even in the minds of many Christians, is then relegated to the realm of personal opinion or belief, because the Church has obviously failed to improve the world. Then there are those, among them the Founders of the American government, who see "religion" as a kind of utilitarian force to keep the common peasants from becoming too immoral. And all too many Chrisstians have reduced faith to a moral system.

As a practical strategy, what the Church could use is a stronger, more observable monastic witness, comprising people who voluntarily take on suffering, through self-denial, voluntary poverty and celibacy and strict fasting and prayer. That, by demonstration, puts the lie to the apostacy of the age that in order to be happy one must eliminate suffering. And do you know what that requires? It requires priests and bishops who are willing to encourage young people to consider monasticism as a vocation, and to encourage parents to encourage their children. In other words, it takes a lot of courage. Monasticism is not an escape from life's problems, but is the natural way of living. The apocalypse is made manifest in the life of a monastic community, not in an historical time sense.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Owen,

That's good; I think we're almost on the same track now. Perhaps we can see that there are two extremes to avoid; an obsession about the apostasy & end-times & a worldly 'optimism': both lack sobriety & can be merely a cover for selfishness.

I want Owen to go through your second paragraph point by point- you have asked for 'practical preaching'- I will to the best of my ability as a priest tell what I think the Church would accept or question in what you posted-here goes:

1) about resentment- yes this is a sin by any standards. 2)cannot tolerate living in an apostate age- we need to be more careful about this one. As I said, often our sense of the apostasy is only temporary and is provoked by some personally painful episode involving someone else. So the 'cannot tolerate', at times is really a deep pain, a frustration, which if not dealt with can become a deep bitterness. 3)rescue from the prison- to simply escape from the pain is wrong. But the tragedy of sin, well yes we need to want to be rescued from that prison. And in some deeper sense the Second Coming of Christ will be a mercy; an ending of what IS a real crushing weight on humanity ie death. So the matter is not black & white; and often it is not an abstract issue but one rather of real people made of flesh & blood.

Finally I want Owen (and the rest of us) to leave you with a 'spiritual exercise': we want 'the Church' to give a practical stategy. But you are a member of the Church, like the rest of us. I want to give the following actual incident for which you (we) as Orthodox Christians should think "what is the proper thing to do, to say?" There was a young man who came from a non-Orthodox family; like many youth he was troubled and as he entered young manhood and married and then had a family many familiar tragedies followed him; family breakdown, depression, etc. Now this young man had once visited an Orthodox monastery; at first he responded well to his environment but finally he could not bring himself to control his sense of self-will and finally ended up fighting with the spiritual father and leaving the monastery. Filled with hatred for the Church he then entered his marriage. Sadly as we have said the threads of his life began to seperate and eventually after seperating from his wife & children the resolve was taken to do the most horrific thing; to take his life, which he did by throwing himself into the ocean. Now the mother comes to you- (this happened to me you see)- what do you say & do?. This my dear Owen (and other posters ) is the apostasy I am concerned with, it is the one I deal with day to day.

I do not say this except with love- I would like all of us to think about how we approach the world's suffering, without coaching but rather drawing on our Faith in Christ and our Church.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Melissa]

Dear Owen,


I guess what I am looking for from preaching is more than just another sermon on apostacy, or an appeal to share in other peoples' suffering but rather practical instruction on how to actually benefit from suffering, that we should actually be grateful when we suffer, and that there are practical teachings in the Church's tradition for acquiring joy in suffering and peace in suffering.

Owen, what I hear in that post and the passage I quoted from it, is a genuine longing to change the world for the better; to bring the suffering and joy that is life in Christ to more people, so they will know that their earthly suffering has hope and meaning.

We can get books and pamphlets that tell us the right attitude toward suffering, ours and others', and many saints seem to have addressed this issue. My priest preaches about this often - I think I remember you're not close to an Orthodox Church, so perhaps a special meeting with your priest just to talk this over would bring you some peace. Christ said to love others as He loved us - and that involves responsiblity. And He told us that the smallest thing we do for another is valued by Him as much as if we had done it to Him. Few of us are called to formal mission work, but we all are called to do that which comes across our path each day. For when we have "eyes to see and ears to hear" we're responsible for what we see and hear and also what we do about it.

I used to long for the Orthodox Church leaders to give me more direction - like take a more visible stand on world events so I would have no doubt how to respond - but I've had to live with the Church doing what it does according to a tradition that's much larger, older and wiser than I. And I'm learning that a quieter approach to the world is no less active, no less helpful -in the long run we Orthodox are focused on.

As others, maybe even you, have counseled - just live your faith, day by day, being watchful and keeping your lamp lit, not even worrying about how you can help, because what you can do will be put before you. (I have a hard time with that one; I hoped I'd be called to "more", and be capable of responding in perfect faith...ah, my sin of pride rears its ugly head again.)

In Christ's love,
Melissa

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Well, referring back to Owen's, I am currently more nervous of impending Armageddon than of any sort of Apocalypse. And, speaking as an affirmed non-breeder, would a mass exodus to monasticism by Christians not ultimately lead to extinction as a result of being out-bred by opponents of the whole Western way of life, including its religious practices? That would seem to me to be monstrously self-defeating and could amount to capitulation to the enemy in the time of our greatest test and trial as a civilisation.

Shades of the end of the Roman Empire, both Eastern and Western, methinks.

seeker

[Alex Haig]

Monasticism, while important to the Church, is not the only way to serve God as some people may think. One can serve God in marriage or in the single life by feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked and visiting those in prison (see Matt 25:33-40) - these tasks are not only for the monastics and priests, but for all.

With love in Christ

Alex