'Knowing' we are saved

[Russell Tisdale]

I have a dear baptist friend (or rather many Baptists friends) who isn't necessarily Calvinist, but who does believe in what is commonly referred to down here in the deep South as "Once Saved Always Saved." It is his explanation that once we are adopted into the family of God, God will not disown His own. We are forever His children. Thus, sin, although sinful, is not damaging to our salvation - perhaps only our rewards in heaven, etc. It sounds lovely, but not altogether different thant the Calvinist understanding of the perseverance of the saints.

Other than the obvious problems with this teaching, I find its presumptuousness offputting. Is there any understanding of this doctrine in Orthodoxy, or am I correct in understanding that Salvation is not a 'meet me at the altar after the service and let's pray The Sinner's Prayer' type of event?

thanks,

rusty

[Herman Blaydoe]

God will not disown us, but He still allows us, in our free will, to disavow Him.

The gift of salvation ceases to be a gift if we are not allowed to "return" it.

[Kevin Teo]

Would it be appropriate to say that we are saved as Christian believers by grace, and that not of works(as stated in Ephesians), but on the other hand, that we could be damned by our sins?

[Matt Keyes]

i think you're spot on. Salvation is not a one time event - salvation is a *process*. If salvation were simply a ticket, then your friend would be right.

i think there is a subtle but important paradigm difference here. To the modern Western Protestant, salvation is often simply about avoiding hell. i have serious problems with this line of thought.

Yours,
Matt

[Janine]

There's a wonderful little book by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "How are we Saved?" I highly recommend it in answer to these questions.

[Justin]

Tell them that Orthodoxy is like marriage: you start at a particular moment in time, but the concept is about a life long process and not just that single moment at the beginning. Reducing marriage to an event that happened on a single day defeats the whole point of marriage; so to with salvation. Generally it's a bad idea to feed into sola scriptura, but in this case I'd say just give them lots of Scriptures, like saying that we Orthodox think it important to be "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world" (2 Pet. 1:4), that we are told to "work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12), that we engage in a "work of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thes. 1:3), this being a "work of faith with power" (2 Thes. 1:11). If all else fails, take them to First Timothy, where Paul says: "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Tim. 4:16) This verse clearly shows salvation as a process, and one that involves both doctrine and praxis.

Just stick with Paul and don't get into James, because most who affirm OSAS have already been taught how to side-step what James says. You could also easily build a case from the words of our Lord, since many of our Lord's parables show that a beginning (single moment in time) confession of faith, that doesn't grow or help you be healed, is worthless (deserving to be trampled underfoot, thrown in the fire, etc.). It's also good to stress that we acknowledge that all good comes from God, even our good intentions, and we acknoweldge that we could never boast about our good deeds, because whatever we do that is good is only possible through the grace of God.

[Ronnie Shakespeare]

There is a scripture that seems to point to that you know you are saved. {1 Jonn 5:13} I write these things to you that you believe on the name of the Son of God that you may ''Know'' that you ''have'' eternal life.

So aslong as your Faith is faith in Action into doing the Things of Jesus Christ you can Know you have eternal life. As soon as you have no faith in Jesus christ your Fath in Action will Oppose Jesus christ you will have no eternal life.

Now I understand that eternal life in the Kingdom of God is a free Gift given by God. A reward is Given for works that we do in the Kingdom of God.

Do Orthodox christians believe that the will all be rewarded at different levels of Reward According to the works they did while on earth?

How can by doing Good works be regarded as a Free Gift for eternal life?

[Daniel R.]

I far as I understand it -but I would happly be corrected- the Orthodox Church does not in any way divide between faith and works [i.e. no need to try to balance the Epistles of Saint Paul with that of Saint James].
Faith saves and we are accepted by faith as the Holy Apostles says in his epistles
"And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness"
and
Saint James says "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself."

So faith and works done by faith is faith.

So if faith is viewed in this way it is a free gift from God but man needs to respond to that, to take faith (works and all). Also the Lord said "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing."

I think is the main think in Orthodoxy is theosis, God offers himself to man, man seeks for God and they drawer near together man becomes enlightened by the Light of God, the Light of Tabor, the very Energies of God, he participates in the life of the Holy Trinity by being united to Christ thus is the state of the saints and what we try to work to.

So yes it is a free gift, the gift of God, even unto eternal life.

Yours Daniel,

[Herman Blaydoe]

We do not earn salvation, but accepting it is inherent in every decision we make, every action we take. There are two paths, says the Didache, and we can choose either path at any time. Consistency in staying on the right path, on completing the race (as the Holy Apostle Paul says) is WORK, it takes effort on our part, and God meets us and "honors" our effort, even as the father honored his prodigal son.

Are there different levels? Well, how do YOU interpret the parable of the talents?

Herman the prodigal Pooh

[John Konstantin]

On the way back to my car in York today with and old friend, we got to chatting generally about life. He suddenly announced, knowing my involvement in the Orthodox Church: "Well, you have booked your place in Heaven". I laughed out loud. I looked at him and replied: "Robert, it doesn't quite work like that."

[Sacha]

We do not earn salvation, but accepting it is inherent in every decision we make, every action we take. There are two paths, says the Didache, and we can choose either path at any time. Consistency in staying on the right path, on completing the race (as the Holy Apostle Paul says) is WORK, it takes effort on our part, and God meets us and "honors" our effort, even as the father honored his prodigal son.

Are there different levels? Well, how do YOU interpret the parable of the talents?

Herman the prodigal Pooh

Herman,

It's interesting you mentioned the parable of the talents. It is perhaps one of the most misunderstood parables, I believe. Countless times in various denominational churches I have heard the priest/pastor speaks of our 'gifts' and how we are to use our 'talents' for God, or even worse, through the lens of capitalism. What a tragedy.

But the Eastern teaching brings an amazing sense of awe at God's grace, and as importantly, awe at the responsibility He has entrusted us with. The master says in the parable, 'Engage in trade until I return'. So there cannot be any doubt that we are to be actively engaging with the grace, love and hope of God, all freely gifted to us, to produce a return for him. Could this return be the oil in the lamps, that we are also expected to have when the BrideGroom returns? Could it also be the work which we consider our mere duty as servants?

[Ronnie Shakespeare]

Herman,

It's interesting you mentioned the parable of the talents. It is perhaps one of the most misunderstood parables, I believe. Countless times in various denominational churches I have heard the priest/pastor speaks of our 'gifts' and how we are to use our 'talents' for God, or even worse, through the lens of capitalism. What a tragedy.

But the Eastern teaching brings an amazing sense of awe at God's grace, and as importantly, awe at the responsibility He has entrusted us with. The master says in the parable, 'Engage in trade until I return'. So there cannot be any doubt that we are to be actively engaging with the grace, love and hope of God, all freely gifted to us, to produce a return for him. Could this return be the oil in the lamps, that we are also expected to have when the BrideGroom returns? Could it also be the work which we consider our mere duty as servants?

I understand in a way what your saying. But what i am trying to understand. Say you have got 3 Orthodox christians starting about the same time. all living righteously. The first One decides to get married, brings up 3 children, works hard in his well paid business, Buying a house, a nice car, and wants to give the best to his wife and family. He Finds time to attend church most of his life and also at times he witnesses to others about Jesus christ and his Church. He has not been Perfect because at times he has had to go to confession like we all do.

The second One looses his way a bit hardly goes to church but some times in his early part of his life. Has ended up taking drugs and drinking to much at times. Also been Involved in a few relationships where he is not married. But later on in life around 35 he settles down gets married, holds a Good Job, brings up a couple of children. Goes to Church more often and even starts telling others about Jesus Chris and his church.

The Third one decides not to get married and that to live a more monastic life. Wants to do as much as he can to help people working hard for the Kingdom Of God in prayer and bringing others to Jesus Christ and his Church.

Allthough they all have eternal Life. Should they Be rewarded differently in the Kingdom of God for the Life they Lived while on earth?

[Ronnie Shakespeare]

I understand in a way what your saying. But what i am trying to understand. Say you have got 3 Orthodox christians starting about the same time. all living righteously. The first One decides to get married, brings up 3 children, works hard in his well paid business, Buying a house, a nice car, and wants to give the best to his wife and family. He Finds time to attend church most of his life and also at times he witnesses to others about Jesus christ and his Church. He has not been Perfect because at times he has had to go to confession like we all do.

The second One looses his way a bit hardly goes to church but some times in his early part of his life. Has ended up taking drugs and drinking to much at times. Also been Involved in a few relationships where he is not married. But later on in life around 35 he settles down gets married, holds a Good Job, brings up a couple of children. Goes to Church more often and even starts telling others about Jesus Chris and his church.

The Third one decides not to get married and that to live a more monastic life. Wants to do as much as he can to help people working hard for the Kingdom Of God in prayer and bringing others to Jesus Christ and his Church.

Allthough they all have eternal Life. Should they Be rewarded differently in the Kingdom of God for the Life they Lived while on earth?


On meditating what i wrote here i have come to understand that the First two should be rewarded equally going by the prodigal Son returning to his father after he went a bit wayward.

But i still have not come to a understanding between the First and the third christian. both have not Gone exactly wayward. Just one working hard and living a more worldly life to please his wife and children and Grandchildren.
The other living a more Ascetic life to please the Lord working hard for his kingdom.

[Ronnie Shakespeare]

We do not earn salvation, but accepting it is inherent in every decision we make, every action we take. There are two paths, says the Didache, and we can choose either path at any time. Consistency in staying on the right path, on completing the race (as the Holy Apostle Paul says) is WORK, it takes effort on our part, and God meets us and "honors" our effort, even as the father honored his prodigal son.

Are there different levels? Well, how do YOU interpret the parable of the talents?

Herman the prodigal Pooh


Ah Herman

I have had a Good meditate on the parable of the Talents. Thanks it has helped me understand things better. we are all going to be rewarded the same. Even if we have been given the grace to do a lot for the kingdom or less for the kingdom.

[Aidan Kimel]

Perhaps C. S. Lewis's homily "The Weight of Glory (www.verber.com/mark/xian/weight-of-glory.pdf)" might be helpful here.

God, who is our supreme and ultimate Good, is our reward; but our capacity to enjoy Him varies from individual to individual. The saints enjoy a greater reward precisely because they have opened their hearts to God to a greater degree than the rest of us. The lover does not seek a reward external to his beloved; communion with his beloved is his reward.

[Ronnie Shakespeare]

Can Orthodox Christians Know that they are ''Truly Saved'' while they Are walking there Spiritual path with Christ and his Church on this Earth. Or do the have to wait for the Final Judgement To find out it they are Truly saved?

[Daniel R.]

My priest told us at one Catechism Class that if we be asked "Are you saved ?" we should answer, "I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved."

[Herman Blaydoe]

How do you finish the race before getting to the finish? We must persevere to the end, but we are always free to stop "running" or to "reject" our gift at any time up until we die. We are NOT saved against our will.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Owen Jones]

St. Paul's will was overpowered by God on the road to Damascus. God is not beyond using coercion when it suits Him.

[Nina]

Wow, are you guys serious? This is not Orthodox thinking. Herman is right. We have no idea if we are saved until Christ tells us to stay on His right. Every Christian (Orthodox, or not) should know that, because it is written in the Bible. Read the Gerontikon, lives of Saints etc. and you will see how the coryphaei of Orthodox spirituality treated the matter. We are nothing until we receive the crown from the Lord in Heaven. Yes, we know that salvation is in the Church and we are part of the Church, however we must not give in the deception of the evil one thinking we are saved and sleep on laurels.

One monastic was tempted by the devil who told him "You are saved, you are saved. Stop now your war (spiritual) it is enough. You will enter Heaven." However the monk was not giving in to this temptation saying: "No. I am nothing and a great sinner." This temptation followed him even to the deathbed and also in the other world. But the monk would not give in. Only when he arrived at the Gates of Heaven he said: "Yes, by the grace of Christ now I am saved."

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm not sure that getting someone's attention is the same thing as overcoming someone's will, unless it is in the limited sense of overcoming one's will to ignore...

Herman the Pooh who often ignores much

[Nina]

I'm not sure that getting someone's attention is the same thing as overcoming someone's will, unless it is in the limited sense of overcoming one's will to ignore...


This is true. God knows the inclination of our hearts and His telling certain people to come to Him it is more like an invitation to get to Him in the right way. Many Saints were invited more or less the same way St. Paul was. Take St. Eustathios for instance. Wonderful pagan who did good wherever he could and God rewarded him greatly because He said 'it is not right for this good soul not to know Me'.

[Father David Moser]

I cannot say that I am saved - in fact I can say that I am not yet saved. I can, however, say that I am confident that I will be saved as long as I follow Jesus Christ. I don't have what some protestant groups call "assurance" of my salvation - its not guaranteed because I am a sinner and can change at a whim. I do have confidence in my salvation because I believe that God will not abandon me and that He will save me in accordance with His promise. The uncertainty does not rest with God - for He is good and unchangeable and loves mankind and desires that no one perish but that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. The uncertainty rests with me for I am weak and the chief among sinners. Even so, the uncertainty is not about my deeds or lack thereof (for all my righteousness is like filthy rags) but rather about my will. As long as I choose to follow Christ, I will be saved - but if I choose to abandon Christ, then ... well then there is no hope.

So I do not know I am saved, I do know that I am am not yet saved, however do know that as long as I choose Christ, I will be saved.

Fr David

[Daniel R.]

I would say that one could say one is saved through baptism, dyeing and being buried with Christ, the putting off old man and the putting on of the new, being united to the Church which is his body. This does not mean that I shall be saved in the end for I can still sin and reject this, but if I am saved this is how I am saved by God.

One could say one is being saved by drawing or being drawn nearer to God throug obeying his comanndements theosis.

One could say I shall be saved, by Christ in the end, at the last judgement, if by his great mercy he spares me as sinner.

Yours Daniel,

[Matthew]

I like what I learned as a catechumen:
I was saved by Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection .
I am being saved by trying to obey God.
And I will be saved in the glorious second coming.

[Christina M.]

And I will be saved in the glorious second coming.

Doesn't the above line sound too assertive? I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable using it for myself, and I doubt St Silouan the Athonite would have agreed with it much.

[Herman Blaydoe]

… IF I don't change my mind and reject the Gift freely given
… IF I suddenly don't figure I already finished the race and simply stop running
… IF I do not practice nepsis and become deceived by the enemy
… IF I keep my eyes on Christ even through the stormy seas and not sink because I become distracted by fear and uncertainty
… IF I practice my faith and keep the commandments of Christ and tend to the least of these His children
… IF I hold fast to the one thing needful and like the good seed not be choked out by shallow faith or the cares of this world
Then perhaps I will hear at the last Judgement, Welcome good and faithful servant … enter into the joy of your Lord."

As others have said, God's promise will not be taken away, but we are free at any time to throw it away, like Judas.

Herman the "what if" Pooh

[Paul Cowan]

I have to agree with Nina. We will not know we are saved until we get there and He says so.

Fr. David you wrote:

So I do not know I am saved, I do know that I am am not yet saved, however do know that as long as I choose Christ, I will be saved.

Herman wrote:

As others have said, God's promise will not be taken away, but we are free at any time to throw it away, like Judas.

We work out or salvation through fear and trembling. I trust in God to keep His word that if I choose Life I will be saved. Everything St. Paul taught on salvation was future tense. I am the variable that changes.

How will I know? How can I KNOW the life I lead is pleasing to God and that He will not turn His back on me as he said to those "I don't know you" even though they prophesied in His name and worked miracles in His name? What kind of life is expected of ME, not you (plural) for ME to get into heaven? We all turn our back on God. Me more than most. The Holy Spirit withdraws after too many small indiscretions (as Fr. Patrick Reardon said). How many is too many? I don't want to be given over to a reprobate mind and miss out getting in by the skin of my teeth.

This seems to consume me lately.

Paul who has alot of temptations thrown at him this first week of Lent.

[Nina]

It is another thing not to despair and have faith Christ will do the best for us and for our salvation. This yes, it is true. However we must cooperate with Him. We are responsible for our actions, and what God does is God's business. In Orthodoxy we are taught to shed tears for our sins. The stories of holy people crying non stop for their sins (even when they so holy!) are innumerable in our Tradition. It is difficult for me to shed tears of repentance like it is, imagine if I believed that I am saved.

[Owen Jones]

Go out into the highways and byways and "compel them to come in." Just saying...

[Aidan Kimel]

I cannot say that I am saved - in fact I can say that I am not yet saved. I can, however, say that I am confident that I will be saved as long as I follow Jesus Christ. I don't have what some protestant groups call "assurance" of my salvation - its not guaranteed because I am a sinner and can change at a whim. I do have confidence in my salvation because I believe that God will not abandon me and that He will save me in accordance with His promise. The uncertainty does not rest with God - for He is good and unchangeable and loves mankind and desires that no one perish but that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. The uncertainty rests with me for I am weak and the chief among sinners. Even so, the uncertainty is not about my deeds or lack thereof (for all my righteousness is like filthy rags) but rather about my will. As long as I choose to follow Christ, I will be saved - but if I choose to abandon Christ, then ... well then there is no hope.

So I do not know I am saved, I do know that I am am not yet saved, however do know that as long as I choose Christ, I will be saved.

This is precisely the approach I take when asked "Are you saved?" When I look at myself, all I see is a sinner whose faith is weak, erratic, unreliable; but when I look at God, I see One whose love and mercy is infinite, abundant, unconquerable, who is always faithful to his promises. I need to look to God and keep my gaze fixed on him.

[Vasiliki D.]

From St. Isaiah the Solitary (The Philokalia Vol. 1; Faber and Faber pg. 26):
"Be attentive to your heart and watch your enemies, for they are cunning in their malice. In your heart be persuaded of this: it is impossible for a man to achieve good through evil means. That is why our Savior told us to be watchful, saying: 'Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there are that find it' (Mt. 7:14)."

[Nina]

From St. Isaiah the Solitary (The Philokalia Vol. 1; Faber and Faber pg. 26):
"Be attentive to your heart and watch your enemies, for they are cunning in their malice. In your heart be persuaded of this: it is impossible for a man to achieve good through evil means. That is why our Savior told us to be watchful, saying: 'Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there are that find it' (Mt. 7:14)."

And do not sleep on laurels. :)

Just because we are Christians it does not mean we are saved. That only means we will be judged much more than the rest of the world.