What do you assent to?

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear All:

I am not at all sure this is the right topic for this question as I reviewed the topic definitions. I trust the Moderator will move it to where it belongs.

The last several days I've been thinking about what it means to be received into Orthodoxy. When one is baptized and chrismated into Orthodoxy what does that person assent to?

For example, when I became a member of my old Baptist church, I basically (and unknowingly) agreed to all that being a Baptist was: priesthood of all believers, autonomy of the local church, Baptist polity, communion and baptism are symbolical statements of faith and remembrance, the 1000 year reign of Christ after the rapture of believers...stuff like that. Though many people don't even think about what they are "agreeing" too when joining a church.

So what does a person agree to when they unite with the Orthodox Church? I hope I've worded this question in such a way as it is understandable. If not, I trust you all to help me sort out my thoughts to get to the right question!

Thank you in advance for your help,
Trudy

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Trudy,

I think the answer to your question would be as unique as the person answering.

The Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth." (1Tim. 3:15). I experienced how the Church was real in a world that is false. As real as life & death, joy & suffering so is the Church. Given the basics to read about what Orthodoxy is in doctrine & piety I hardly retained anything at the time before my reception into the Church except to feel that, 'this was the real thing'.

Then God blessed me with my first spiritual father whose main vocabulary consisted of words like "true", "false". He was (and is) a very real person showing the power of Christ in the strength of his belief and life.

So for myself theology and knowledge about the Faith came after what I assented to. And also a knowledge of how the Church is the Body of Christ.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Lillian Grunzweig]

Trudy,

I understand what you are going through and it's not easy to wade through. The best place to start is the Nicene Creed. Read it and find out what each phrase means.

Different non orthodox groups at different times have reinterpreted different statements but to the Orthodox each statement still basically means the same thing.

The seven ecumenical councils is also very important to understand.

Mostly what will happen is you will start out with a couple of questions and instead of getting a satisfactory answer you'll end up with more questions. Eventually though some of the questions themselves will become answers and others will remain a mystery, and the rest will have pretty concrete answers about what the Church does not believe.

That was sort of the process my conversion took. I had to read a lot to make sense of anything. At some point you will need a spiritual Father to go through this with you. It just isn't possible to do it alone for most people.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Trudy,

What you will be assenting to in reality is a new reality that is less worldly. Something which all of our creeds and dogmas point to but which we have to live. And we can only do that through a very painful process in which we stop clinging to worldly things (including ideas and concepts that divert our attention). It does not mean that we must make a vow of poverty, or work the rest of our lives serving the poor. But it does mean that we must struggle to undergo an inner conversion away from our dream that this world can satisfy us, or that we can control our own destiny.

[Anastasia Theodoridis]

Dear Trudy,

As has been mentioned, it is more a way of life you commit to than a series of docrines; specifically, an Orthodox Christian life. The doctrines, after all, are always expressions of that. Hence, they really only make the most sense within that context.

When I became Orthodox, I knew I believed in all the defined dogmas, the items in the "Creed", for example, and the great trinitarian and christological dogmas defined in the Councils. I wasn't so sure about some things regarding the Theotokos, for example. But I decided EVEN IF they weren't right, I could see that Orthodox Christianity was healing and sanctifying people and helping me, too, so I would still accept the Orthodox faith even with its cracks and warts, as I at first supposed they were. Only later, gradually, did I see the wisdom where I had once perceived nonsense.

My first spiritual father never tried to indoctrinate me at all. He tried very hard to get me to pray and to fast, to observe the feasts, to attend as many services as possible, to struggle with my sins and to have some trust in God -- in short, to adopt an Orthodox life. He knew the rest would follow.

Anastasia

[Daniel Jeandet]

If we assent to the painful circumstances of our lives, seeing them as an opportunity to work with God's grace against our impassioned selves, and blaming only ourselves for the pain we endure as a result of the passions we have created to support our egos, we learn that everything the saints taught about the faith, they learned in this way, and they aquired as a form of knowledge that is able to be taught only in part through words and instructions, and that God can teach us in full through experience.

If we experience some doubt or difficulty concerning the Orthodox Faith or the teachings of the Church and the Fathers, it is best to accept such difficulties in this way, giving our assent to the pain that results from letting go of the need to understand or make sense of everything, or the desire to reconcile what we learn in Church with the opinions we feel we need to formulate and hold as our own.

Its okay to not know stuff while we believe that we only know as much as God wants us to for the moment. We can trust Him to teach us what we need, as long as we really want to learn it from Him, in service to Him.

[Trudy Ellmore]

This is a difficult concept to grasp. So what you are all saying is that Orthodoxy, while it has its doctrine, canons, Creed, and prayers, is more a way of living and breathing. It is simpler than what I formerly did as a Protestant, which was to seek God by reading more "about" Him rather than "experiencing" Him. And one experiences Him through Liturgy and prayer.

So it is to believe in God and that He exists, and believe that He loves me. Period. The rest doesn't matter?

It seems like there should be more. But I guess not so since I've been gathering by reading posts and saints lives that it takes a lifetime to just get the "simple" part! I don't have to have the Creed down pat or know the decisions of the Councils or have other prayers memorized in order to "become" Orthodox. It's like being kid and learning to read. First you start with the shapes of the letters and then you eventually get to a point where you can read St. Gregory of Nyssa and understand him (well maybe :-) The shapes of the letters are believing in God and believing that He loves me. The rest comes in time.

[Lillian Grunzweig]

You have the general meaning of the process but to say the rest simply doesn't matter is definitely and over simplification.

There is a process one goes through when you decided you want to become Orthodox. I go to a church that is almost entirely converts. For some of them this process took years and for others less than one year.

To start the process all of these details don't matter. Attend Liturgy, pray, fast... do whatever you think you can. The important thing and this can not be overstated.... is to start working with a spiritual father. Not to indoctrinate you... just to help you understand the process and your experiences. When you would be Christmated and what you personally need to ascribe to before that happens is really up to your spiritual father.

In my church, my priest won't Chrismate someone until he is sure they are ready... but what makes someone ready is different for each person. There is no set of legalistic rules about it or a contract to sign or anything like that. In fact I thought I was ready before my spiritual Father did so I had to wait a few more months.

Submission to a spiritual father is definitely the first thing you will need to ascribe to. That does not mean you check your brain at the door in a Jim Jones fashion. It just means that you recieve his guidence in a spirit of humility because of the grace that is bestowed upon him.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Trudy,

What Lillian is saying is correct. The rest does matter. But commitment comes before knowledge, like Abraham who leaves for the Land of Faith before he reaches it.

This aspect of sacrifice of oneself is essential but sometimes overlooked. As Christ said in the parable about the pearl hidden in the field, the person had first to give up everything to purchase it (Mt. 13:45-46). After all the doctrine and teachings of the Church (which again are important) really refer to knowledge of a Person- Christ- and of those who surround Him- the Theotokos & saints- and of His way of life- so that we become like Him. This is an essential law of the spiritual life Trudy- like attracts like- and we seek to be like Christ. As Christ says, "he who seeks to be like Me let him take up his cross and follow Me."

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

Dear Trudy,

I fear that becoming Orthodox by trying to master "concepts" may lead to disappointment and frustration, or at the very least may divert attention from the one thing needful. (Not that I am personally in a position to represent myself as somehow a good example of what it means to be Orthodox). But let's not forget what we are talking about. We are talking simply about being Christian. And even that, in our deformed cultural environment, has been largely reduced to a slogan.

A friend of mine put it this way. If I want to travel from Augusta, Georgia (that's where he was living at the time) to Atlanta, I can drive a VW or a Rolls Royce. Protestantism is represented by the VW. Orthodoxy is represented by the Rolls Royce. Both will get me there. Which one do you want to carry you.

The Protestant will choose the VW, partly out of personal spite -- a kind of prideful false humility, and partly out of a misguided definition of simplicity, arguing that everything beyond what is utilitarian is vile - that all of the "trappings" of Orthodoxy lead us away from the purity of Scrupture. The Orthodox will choose the Rolls Royce because it is a finely tuned, complex, and beautiful conveyance that represents the fullness and beauty of God's economy. The risk, of course, is that as Orthodox we confuse the conveyance with the reality itself, and become prideful of this beautiful machine that we think we possess. But there is something to be said for the ride being as important as the destination. Or, to put it more radically, the ride is the destination. Being on the way to Atlanta in a Rolls Royce is, well, already perfection! Enjoy the ride!

[Father Anthony]

*A friend of mine put it this way. If I want to travel from Augusta, Georgia *(that's where he was living at the time) to Atlanta, I can drive a VW or a *Rolls Royce. Protestantism is represented by the VW. Orthodoxy is= represented *by the Rolls Royce. Both will get me there. Which one do you want to carry= =20 you.

Another and more classic example is that the Church is the Ark of Salvation= =20 which carries us across the troubled sea of life to the heavenly shores on= =20 the other side. Within the Ark is the certainty of safe arrival if one=20 remains on board.

Now it's *possible* that one can traverse the sea in a rowboat (anything=20 other than the Church), but the likelihood of success is somewhat limited.

[Trudy Ellmore]

Naturally Owen, I would want the best to carry me. Just like I want the best doctor who has the best medicine available in the universe to cure me of whatever disease I had, be it cancer or whatever. Thus, the best doctor and medicine is found in Orthodoxy. Correct? The trappings, as you put it, are helpful in the context of the medicine?

What you wrote, Fr. Raphael, This aspect of sacrifice of oneself is essential but sometimes overlooked. As Christ said in the parable about the pearl hidden in the field, the person had first to give up everything to purchase it (Mt. 13:45-46). is where the rubber meets the road for me. And in the society in which I am surrounded, as we all are, the idea of sacrificing oneself is so foreign. For so long it's been "all about me" and what I can gain, learn, get from God. Is Orthodoxy the reverse? It is not all about me, but all about God and what can I give up, unlearn (so to speak), and give to God?

Orthodoxy is not about pouring knowledge into one's head, but having God fill the empty vessel of one's heart? This is really hard to grasp having a Protestant mindset for so long. I have a feeling I'm gonna be fighting this battle for the rest of my days.

Thank you all for your patient explanations. They truly have been helpful and have given me much to ponder on...oops...there I go again!

[Daniel Jeandet]

Before we can be filled with knowledge that is inexpressable, we need to be purged of the deception we have willingly made ourselves subject to. I hope its not wrong to say that Orthodox life is primarily about a constant awareness of the unreality that builds up inside a person and that cuts them off from the light of God's grace, always present and unchanging. We repent of this false being that we drag around like a shell to justify and defend ourselves, the truth being that we do not need to justify or defend anything, it is God's goodness that takes care of that. I think that we see God as being like the kind of God we would be. The less we judge (both people and circumstances) and the more we love, the more we percieve the true God. St Maximus talks about how God seems imperfect to the imperfect person, that makes our knowledge imperfect also, even if it is completely correct and Orthodox. We recieve it imperfectly until we repent deeply and truly give thanks for all things, then God teaches us himself, or maybe angels, I dont know. There is no anxiety or doubt concerning this knowledge, called by Saint Isaac, simple cognition.

[Photini]

Confessing the Orthodox faith is to be crucified.
I like what Fr. Raphael said about the Church being true in a world that is false. I believe that.

[Anastasia Theodoridis]

Dear Trudy,

Well, it's MORE about Christ filling the empty vessel of your heart, first. And THEN, however, the knowledge does also spill over into your brain, but that's as a secondary effect. It's not so much knowledge of facts or grasping of concepts as it is developing an intimate acquaintance, relationship, with a Person (Three Persons)., but then the more you get to know HIM, the more the teachings about Him do make sense. In short, it's a different, heavenly sort of knowledge, but you don't have to check your brain at the door or anything like that.

(Well, in my case I sort of had to leave my brain outside the church door for a WHILE and come back for it later...)

Anastasia

[John Curtis Dunn]

Forgive me if I express a minor distinction between assent and confess. The former often expresses a movement of the mind, the latter a movement of the lips. Quite often, assent in our contemporary culture requires no formal action to identify itself. I have met numerous people who would give assent to this or that doctrine or practice, but they were unable to confess Orthodoxy.

When we only give assent, we also hold back and reserve to ourselves a right of dissent. I know of some cases of persons who have seemingly embraced Orthodoxy wholeheartedly, but whom within a year of their baptism were asserting their right to dissent. Of course, in doing so they claimed to be following their conscience and they probably were, but that is where our assent and confession of Orthodoxy must reside. It must become the heart and soul of our conscience, so that when we veer from it, our conscience cries out against us.

This is very much the first matter after becoming a catechumen and subsequently a baptized Orthodox Christian [rememember, a catechumen can make his or her assent to Orthodoxy, but this does not make them to be an Orthodox Christian]. We come to the Church to have our conscience transformed through the "renewing of our mind" [Rom. 12:2]. In the cases I have in mind, each of these persons came to the Church to assess and evaluate its worth and value in their lives. That in itself is not horrible, but it should have happened prior to their vows of fidelity to the Orthodox Church.

Please note that last point: "vows of fidelity to the Orthodox Church." When a person becomes Orthodox, they will not simply be giving their assent to a system of ideas, but rather they are pledging fidelity to the Orthodox Church even if if cost that person his or her life. To fulfill that vow means that we must daily choose to live that day fulfilling that promise of fidelity.

This fidelity means conforming our life to the life of the Church and this we do through whatever parish we have chosen to learn Christ. This is also why it is important that we choose our parishes wisely, for our conscience will be transformed to some degree in conformity to the faithfulness of the particuliar parish in which we become members.

The Priest who baptized me, instructed me to not participate on the internet, or engage in arguments about Orthodoxy for at least five years. I do not mean to convey that he was giving his permission to do either of these after five years, for that would be to miss the point of his instruction. What was that point? It was that having my senses experienced in living the life of the Church was to be my primary priority.

Of course, this is itself a continually ongoing process and is never completed until we repose in faith and hope of the promise of Christ. Even then the process is incomplete, but our part, which requires us to exercise our will, is completed.

In the cases of which I write, these individuals failed to keep their promise, all becoming distracted by thoughts and questions which had little or nothing to do with living the life of the Church. Their minds became clouded with doubts and confusions as they began to attempt to comprehend matters which belong to more experienced Orthodox Christians. When I say experienced, I mean experienced in living the life of the Church.

For example, a person may give their assent to a belief in the intercession of the Saints, but living the experience of the intercession of the Saints comes through regular frequent attentive prayer in the Services of the Church [our individual or family prayers are an extention of the Services of the Church]. Without this participation the knowledge of the intercession of the Saints remains only in a stage of mental assent, no matter how much we may strive to expound, explain or defend it as an Orthodox Doctrine. Certainly it is an Orthodox Doctrine, but more importantly it is an Orthodox practice.

I apologize for having written so many words, especially when others have expressed their own replies more succinctly. Perhaps if I had only written, "A person agrees to be obedient and faithful to the Orthodox Church, as manifest through the Bishop(s) to which one is received in the Church under his care." I would have said enough. For it is in being obedient and faithful to the Church that our assent becomes a confession of our Faith.

john dunn

[Alex Haig]

To be an Orthodox Christian is to hold God in your heart at all times. You find that all the Traditions of the Church guide you towards this goal.

With love in Christ

Alex

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

First, a welcome to Miss Lillian Grunzweig, Mrs Anastasia Theodoridis, and Fr Anthony -- some new 'faces' among us. We are happy to have you here as part of the community.

Second, I have found this an enjoyable thread thus far. Special thanks to John for his most recent post.

I would like to hear more people's thoughts on the relationship of 'assent' and 'confess' -- this is a matter on which I've had many discussion recently, and would enjoy hearing others' thoughts.

INXC, Matthew

[Trudy Ellmore]

Matthew:

Since I'm the one who posted the "assent" question in the first place, which btw, I deeply appreciate the thought provoking answers...I'll toss in my .02 worth on the relationship of "assent" and "confess."

The dictionary defines assent as: (noun) agreement with a statement or proposal to do something or (verb) to agree or express agreement. Confess is defined as: (1) to tell or make known (as something wrong or damaging to oneself), (2) to acknowledge (sin) to God or to a priest, (3) to declare faith in or adherence to. Thus, in my mind, one must "assent" before they can "confess." Meaning that one must agree to what they believe before they declare adherence to it with their mouths.

This being said, assent can happen and a split second later one can confess it. There doesn't necessarily have to be a long time between the two. Unless you are like me, who mulls things over for often too long before assenting or confessing. :-)

In Christ, Trudy

[Owen Jones]

I confess to being a contrarian, but I would suggest that perhaps it is not so neat and tidy. Perhaps confession, as fully understood, really precedes assent. Confession is metanoia that encompasses more than just a secular definition of a verbal acknowledgment. One confesses God as Creator in and through the experience of awe and wonder at the cosmos. One confesses God as Good, by becoming painfully aware, inwardly, of one's faults, long before one knows what to assent to. In fact, it's the assent part that seems to be so difficult and troubling and takes so long. Throughout most of the first millenium, the dominant factions in Eastern Orthodoxy were heretical. Many heretics were profoundly pious people who confessed God but were fools intellectually and conceptually, something which is a constant in history and in all of ourindividual natures which we always have to account for. In fact, were it not for the prevalence of fools, the Church would not need much in the way of formal doctrines, dogmas or confessions to assent to. Prior to doctrines, there were confessing souls.

[Owen Jones]

Back to the original question, I can't remember all of my chrismation ceremony, but the greatest emphasis is on the exorcism of demons and assent to the Nicene Crede, which is explicated during the ceremony. But it gets complicated. I remember a person in a mission I was involved in wore a Masonic pin to church after he was chrismated and the deacon tried to talk him into renouncing his affiliation with that bizarre cult which he then refused to do, which, of course, is a rather hubristic example of disobedience. We are really assenting to a life of obedience, properly understood.

[Lillian Grunzweig]

The understanding of words and semantics is always an enigma. My own conversion to Orthodoxy taught me that often times people are not aware of the dictionary definition of a word or the philosophical uses of various terms.

Often times words are used to mean more than just the official definition. Popular uses for terms often supercede the dictionary definition in the common understanding of people within an evolving culture. Language is not static.

If there is one thing my own conversion taught me it is that people often use the same words but mean very different things by them and often use different words but mean the same thing.

I used to get very hung up on the literal words people use. I have recently found it more helpful to figure out through listening and asking questions what a person really means regardless of thier choice of words which can be as varied as the individual.

Personally I understood very clearly what Trudy meant by her question.

That being said there must be a connection between what we say we believe and what we actually do or else our faith is nothing.

[M. Rallis]

At the beginning of this discussion, Trudy asked:

“So what does a person agree to when they unite with the Orthodox Church? I hope I've worded this question in such a way as it is understandable. If not, I trust you all to help me sort out my thoughts to get to the right question!”

In response, Father Raphael stated:

“The Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth." (1Tim. 3:15). I experienced how the Church was real in a world that is false. As real as life & death, joy & suffering so is the Church.”

Anastasia added:

“But I decided EVEN IF they weren't right, I could see that Orthodox Christianity was healing and sanctifying people and helping me, too, so I would still accept the Orthodox faith even with its cracks and warts, as I at first supposed they were. Only later, gradually, did I see the wisdom where I had once perceived nonsense.”

And then Owen stated:

“I fear that becoming Orthodox by trying to master "concepts" may lead to disappointment and frustration, or at the very least may divert attention from the one thing needful.”

Daniel J. confesses that:

“Before we can be filled with knowledge that is inexpressible, we need to be purged of the deception we have willingly made ourselves subject to. I hope it’s not wrong to say that Orthodox life is primarily about a constant awareness of the unreality that builds up inside a person and that cuts them off from the light of God's grace, always present and unchanging.”

From Alex we hear:

“To be an Orthodox Christian is to hold God in your heart at all times. You find that all the Traditions of the Church guide you towards this goal.”

What can I add to the communal eloquence provided by our fellow strugglers, here on Monachos? Probably nothing more than what has already been stated above:

If we seek Truth, we will find Him in Orthodoxy, as members of his mystical Body. If we seek our own salvation, we will encounter Him who desires it for us even more than we do for ourselves, and embark on the life in Christ, where we will struggle to be purified of our sinfulness and passions, receive illumination, the inexpressible knowledge of His Uncreated Grace, and proceed toward Theosis, God dwelling in our hearts at all times. In becoming Orthodox, I assent that God Incarnate, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, established His Church, her Creed, her sacramental life, for our healing and salvation, and confess my own imperfection, sinfulness, lowliness, and utter unworthiness of this great mercy.

[Trudy Ellmore]

Ah Owen, I would agree with you that this discussion is not neat and tidy. Thus the reason it is a discussion! Is there anything in life that is neat and tidy? Doubtful.

Owen wrote, One confesses God as Creator in and through the experience of awe and wonder at the cosmos. How can someone confess this if they haven't assented to the belief that God is Creator in the first place. Wouldn't someone have to agree to the statement that He is Creator before they are able to confess it? It would seem so to me.

Also it's the assent part that seems to be so difficult and troubling and takes so long. Now it's my turn to be contrarian Owen, because I think that it is confession part that takes long. One can assent that God is good, yet not come to a point of recognizing their faults and sins and confess God is good for a long time.

Lillian, I agree with you that most people don't know dictionary definition of terms. I'm one of those people, thus the reason I went to the dictionary to look up the accurate meaning of the words, to gain a better understanding.

Part of the problem with this world is people use words in so many different ways, as you pointed out Lillian, that it is often difficult to understand what a person is talking about! I totally *assent* :-) about listening and asking questions and *confess* :-) that I don't do a great job of it.

This is a great discussion!

~Trudy~

[Katherine Clark]

If I have this discussion straight, it is a matter of "talk" (assent) and "walk" (confess). If that is what it boils down to, then, is not the gap between our " talk" and "walk" the reason to pray for and to practice repentance?

Katherine

[Owen Jones]

on the other hand....Trudy,

Billions around the world confess God, and many millions confess Christ as LOrd, but do not agree one iota as to what they assent to. Although I confess I am using a somewhat more mystical way of utilizing the term confession than most people would assent to.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Isn't it that we assent and confess within the context of the Church of Christ? Thus to enter the Church, humility, self-denial and seeking are required, completely anchored within the objective mystical reality of the Church. "The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found & hid; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all all that he had, and bought it."(Mt. 13:44-46).

Isn't this what catechesis primarily is? Thus the way we enter the Church is Orthodox (ie properly corresponding and reflecting Who & what Christ and His Body the Church really are), otherwise it will always be arbitrary confession (ie as Owen says) and not true.

Gradually from false confession and assent Christ brings us to true confession & assent. True confession & assent is to be like Christ. And only within His Body the Church is this possible.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

Dear All,

I've been away for a while, and probably will be again, off and on for some time. We're still having tecchnical difficulties. But as to the matter of assent to, and believed in....

borrowing a phrase from Herman; this simple mind understands assent to mean that I'm acknowledging that which is being discussed. I''m giving the nod of my head, as to the point being valid. (I'll assent to the point that Owen is a philosopher)

The things which I believe as a Christian are a "whole different ball of wax." Somewhere in the Gospels is a statement by Jesus that,"...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he..." I understand this to mean that what is thought of in one's heart, is what the person believes; i.e.; what the person lives by.

We each come to this historic faith from diverse points, and at each one our Lord deals with us according to what type of soil our hearts may be. In other words, the truth about Mary being our "only hope of salvation" may not be something which I need to deal with at this particular time. Nor the finer points about deification.

When my first priest suggested to me about being a deacon, in a historic jurisdiction of an ancient faith, my first prayer to God was, "What are you getting me into?" My concern was that Orthodoxy may not be biblical.

The finer points of what is assented to can be hashed out with ones spiritual father, later on down the road in you journey, it's the basic points of the "symbol of faith" (the Nicene Creed)which must be received as what you actually believe.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[John Curtis Dunn]

Somewhere in the Gospels is a statement by Jesus that,"...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he..." I understand this to mean that what is thought of in one's heart, is what the person believes;

But it could also mean that if a man thinks about lying in his heart he is a liar. If he thinks about killing someone, he is a murderer. If he thinks about adultery, he is an adulterer. You think?

john dunn

[Mary Stavroula]

I have done some searches in the gospels for, "...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he..." and the only thing I can come up with is Mark 7:1-23. I quote only 15-23 because of the length, but the entire section should be read for full comprehension:

Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile." When he got home away from the crowd his disciples questioned him about the parable. He said to them, "Are even you likewise without understanding? Do you not realize that everything that goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters not the heart but the stomach and passes out into the latrine?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) "But what comes out of a person, that is what defiles. From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile."

Jesus' purpose in these words is to counter the criticism of certain Pharisees and scribes regarding the disciples not observing the purifications laws of washing before eating, dietary laws of what to eat and gathering food on the sabbath. Jesus wasn't so much saying that your thoughts make you what you are, but that the source of evil thoughts and behavior come from within our hearts and not from what we eat or what comes from without. This is a caution against legalism which sets the law above doing good for others.

Maybe someone else has found a quote that's a better match. I would just caution that speculation on even an accurate quote extrapolated from scripture for purposes of determining a fundamental theological truth or ethical value can lead to erroneous conclusions. It's amazing what I have learned from reading gospels, letters, etc., in their entirety. ;o)

[John Curtis Dunn]

The verse refered to by James is not found in the Gospels, but is found in Provers 23:7; "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he" [KJV]

However, Jesus did say, "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the hear the mouth speaketh, a god man out of the good treasure of he heart bringeth forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things...[Matt. 12:34, 35]

[Mary Stavroula]

Those two verses support the one I mentioned in that they all say that evil or good comes out of the heart. As you probably are aware, the semitic world view did not perceive the mind separate from the heart, e.g., "for as he thinketh in his heart."

[Douglas Barber]

This thread of discussion is interesting with regard to the use of the term "heart" in "prayer of the heart." In seeking to practice this kind of prayer over the years I've found it useful to think of the "place" I want to pray from as being neither mind nor body exclusively, but the "seat of volition", the place from which I act, a "place" where the philosophically baffling mind/body distinction is irrelevant. I now see, based on the Proverbs reference provided by John Curtis Dunn, that the roots of this understanding of what "heart" means in the writings of many of the Fathers, as I understand them, goes back farther than I had thought. Thank you all for your thought-provoking posts which have made enjoyable and, God willing, beneficial reading.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear J.C.D.

(Forgive my abbreviation, my time is very short) As to your July 22nd post, NO! I cannot begin to tell you the number of times I've tried to screw up my thinking, so as to understand the minds of the incarcerated, and those who still roam free. By your hypothesis, am I now a criminal? Got to leave for now.

the unworthy servant