Grace

[Beryl Wells Hamilton]

Dear Father Averky,

I wrote in the thread about the Philokalia:

"isn't that why they were given so much grace? Not for their own sakes, but for the worlds', that through their 'double portion' of grace, their prayers might effect salvation for the world?"

But now I think the part about grace is not quite right. I wonder now whether it has a "Protestant" feel to it.

Wouldn't it be more right to say that the Saints acquired more grace, which is freely given to all who will receive it, because as they struggled toward the goal, they became more able to bear it?


Yours in Christ,

Beryl

[Fr Averky]

Deasr Beryl,

Forgive me forgive me for being so remiss in posting an answer. The second part of you enquiry is the answer; the saints, by living the life in Christ to its fullness aqcuired a fullness of grace, each according to his love and understanding. Many times we will send congratulations to someone and express to them the hopes that they will receive "grace upon grace." Each person in the various stages of his life receives grace according to that state -for instance, a novice is given the grace he needs to struggle as a novice, a riassophore gets more grace, then as a monk. The priesthood has a particular grace, and the episcopacy has the fullness of grace in that the bishop can ordain, tonsure, as well as perform all the other Mysteries of the Church. A mother is given the grace she needs to raise her children in a Christian manner and so on. The Christian ruler receives grace to rule over his nation. God always sends us His grace, and it is up to us to accept or reject it. The more we turn to God, the more we love Him and our neighbor, the more grace we will receive. How sad it is to think that because of our daily pride and sinfulness and judgement of our brother, we deprive ourselves of all that grace we could receive. Thank you for your good question Beryl, for it jostled my own memory. Let us all pray for one another that we all may receive grace upon grace.

Father Averky

[Beryl Wells Hamilton]

Dear Father Averky,

Christ is in our midst!

Yes, thank you for your response!

So the statement I made that the Saints received a "double portion" of grace is right, or even better, "grace upon grace," or, "from glory to glory." But I was not careful enough to watch how my mind was working as I wrote it. I was thinking more of a portion of grace meted out, as though God limits the grace given according to some sort of "predestined" plan(horrible doctrine!), but I know better.

It is that in our sinfulness and rebellion, we limit the unlimited flow of grace given to all who desire it with all their hearts, "according to the individual need of each." Could we say that grace, as we find in our prayer to the Holy Spirit, "is everywhere present and fills all things," since grace is part of the uncreated energies of the Godhead and of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in creation? We will experience this on Pentecost Sunday, this Sunday! The green is everywhere as I look out on the Wisconsin countryside. Springtime points so clearly to the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks again for your response, Father!

[Heather M]

Dear Beryl and Father Averky,

(I haven't cut myself off yet Father, but I'm doing much better.)
This may not be relevant to the original question, but I want to share this anyway. Last weekend when I visited the Holy Theotokos Monastery and talked to Father John, he showed me his glass full of tea. He said that if the glass wasn't full of tea, then it would be full of air. He then said that the same is true with us, that when we aren't full of grace, then we are full of something else.
He gave me plenty of other things to think about until my next visit. I only hope I didn't forget to hit the save button in my mind.

With much love
the sinful heather

[Fr Averky]

Owen,

A second thought. Years ago, we published a very fine book entitled "Journey to Heaven," a series of essays by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk. Several years ago, a section of that book was published as a small book and it was entitled "Raising Them Right," which concerns the responsibilities of good Chrsitian parents, I will look up that section, and see what St. Tikhon has to say on this subjest.

Father Averky

[Priest David Moser]

Dear Father,

If I may interject briefly. "Journey to Heaven" is indeed a fine book by St Tikhon of Zadonsk and I recommend it highly. OTOH, "Raising Them Right" is an excerpt from the larger work "Path To Salvation" by St Theophan the Recluse.

In "Journey to Heaven" there is indeed a section on the Duties of Parents and Children which would be profitable to read. "Path To Salvation" is essentially a treatise on the spiritual development of the person from childhood through maturity and as such the whole first section (reprinted as "Raising them Right") talks about the spiritual development of the child and the parent's responsibilities in shaping that development.

Priest David Moser

[irineu]

I dont know if I could fit this question into this topic, but, however, I am going for it, since we have few priests in here and I would like to hear their opinions, if possible, on this issue.
As christians we all believe that Grace is at the foundation of each human activity, so, as you, Father Averky, said already, even those called to be Mothers are given a special grace for that etc...

But also we know a sacramental grace, a grace which is flown upon those who are part of the Body (Church) of Christ according to the duties they have as priests, bishops, saints etc

Sainthood is something that can be developed only as a part of the Body of Christ, in communion with His mysteries, and outside of this body (the church)sainthood cannot become ful.

This appears to be usually the teaching of most orthodox teachers, sometime going to the point that outside of the Body of Christ there cannot even be salvation.


As you can imagine now my question is regarding exactly these parts who are considered to be not part of the Body of Christ, like Roman Catholics are, as schismatics.
Then, how is it possible that we encounter throughout the centuries, but even recently, man (and woman) of an obvious grace and saintly life.

One of the best examples is Padre Pio of Pietrelcina whose life example and testimony has strucked many christians..
I have had a friend, a guy from Napoli who personally gave me the testimony how he was saved from death few years ago from the intercession of padre pio, and to be noted is that that guy wasnt a religious person at all and hardly had read something about religion at all, but the way he described how he was saved from certain death was very very similar with many other stories I have read in books about padre Pio, and also very similar to those of orthodox modern saints like with Pater Paisio of Mount Athos.

You see the videos of Padre Pio celebrating what would be for the orthodox a invalid mass as he is so different than anyone else, captured from something else from above.

His body is with stigmata, something I have never heard to have been experienced among eastern saints...


I dont know how the fathers in here see this case?
Moreover when saints of both sides confirm their own truths and doctrines...?


thanks!

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Irineu,

The late Fr. Geroges Florovsky in his Ways of Russian Theology vol. 1 states that Christians of the East who reach theosis shine with light but those in the west bleed the wounds of Christ. He relates this to the distinct focal points between the two: the Crucifixion for the Westernsers and the Transfiguration (and I might point out, resurrection) for the Easterners.

Richard

[irineu]

Hi Richard!

Actually all I am trying to say is about the possibility of sainthood, which is connected to grace.
Personally I cannot make theological comments on the type of sainthood gifts to those who have them, nor do I think that this issue should be seen as a psychological issue of concentrations.

The thing is that if Christ is in those wounds, they are then as beautiful and radiant as any uncreated light surrounding other eastern saints.

But I do think as well ,and I said already that he radiated as well. One hardly encounters that kind of face he had when celebrating mass or before the crucifix..
I have to be honest and say that I really have been impressed by that capuchin. I had heard people who knew him, how he confessed people all their sins without them even talking at all etc, but when I get to know with that guy from Napoli, who somehow might have seen that I carried little icons or other religious things, and then one day he told me how he personally just before coming to England was saved miraculosly by padre Pio being in coma and with doctors who warned his parents to prepare soon for the worst, I really got impressed because I had read before such testimonies by other people about him.

And that guy's family hasnt even bother to report what happened to them, although they pay now annual respect to the place of padre Pio.


And the thing is not simply about healings, then about sanctity, which I am questioning in here as how it is possible at a time when these matters seen "humanly" theology will be judged by all sort of judgements?

However, thanks Richard!

[Fr Averky]

Dear Irineu,

If you are Orthodox, then you know that the Orthodox Church has never really accepted the idea of the "Stigmata," and some have gone so far as to say that the Stigmata is but an extreme manifestation of Prelest.

One must wonder when reading the life of St. Francis opf Asissi ( amazingly, he has been compared to St. Seraphim of Sarov), in which two heavenly lights appear before him - one representing him, and the other, representing Jesus Christ. The narrative continues by saying that even God the Father faced a terrible dilemna; who did He love more -His Divine Son, or St,. Francis? No one in Orthodoxy, no matter how holy, ever dared to utter such words.

I remember as a child that in Germany or Austria there was a simple woman by the name of Theresa Neumann. Every year, journalists would gather at her home to witness and record her "Stigmata," which she experienced during Holy Week.

I pass no judgerment on the phenomenon, but as an Orthodox Christian, it is hard for me to harbor good thoughts concerning such a manifestation coming from persons whose Church broke away from the True Church so many centuries ago.

It is also very curious that the Stigmata, or anything like it, has never been reported in the Orthodox world. Only the Church of
Rome seems to have this, except for some similar occurences in India, and Asia.

Therefore for me, Irineu, this is not a topic which is appropriate to be viewed with Orthodox eyes, for God Himself has never willed it to happen to any Orthodox saint. God manifests Himself as He wishes, but it is very noticeable that we have nothing like the Stigmata or the notion of the "Sacred Heart" in the East.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[irineu]

I have read Fioreti but I do not remember to have come across of any such type of conversation when Francis of Asisi received stigmata.

However, probably, you got misunderstood because Richard was stationed more on stigmata part of my first posting. In reality my question is of another nature rather then simply trying to get an opinion on stigmata.
I made it clear that I was concetrating on the type of life and fruits of lives such as of padre Pio and how is it to be explained within the Grace context of part of Body of Christ and not part of it.

As orthodox i know that stigmata hasnt been experienced in east; but I dont think that stigmata will be rejected from east as a possibility of a spiritual experience! There is neither reason nor boundary to confine the nature of sainthood, and moreover stigmata of padre pio differed from many of those others who have claimed to have had them. He didnt make them any object of adoration, veneration nor did he pride himself on them, except being seen suspicious from coreligionists. He held them has the most intimate sign of his personal love towards christ...

But again let us remain within Grace and sainthood question!

thanx pater!

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Irineu and Father Averky,

My most humble appologies for throwing the discussion off and changing its focus. Irineu, your question was how is it that the heterodox can yet receive and live according to God's grace, and your example was the heterodox Padre Pio in his intercession for the life of your friend from Napoli?

This might be the same question Father A: does Orthodoxy limit God's grace to The Church alone?
With Luther, I would too but our definition of what that is would not be the same as O's,unless I'm mistaken, but about which I will say no more without your permission Father (as I care not to arouse hostillities or endanger souls).

Richard
who would exchange protestation for prostration.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Although I am not Fr. Averky, I think I can say with confidence the following: The Church knows that Grace flows through the Church. We know where the Holy Spirit is. However, we know that Holy Scripture tells us: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) Simply speaking, I do not believe that the Orthodox Church takes a stance on whether or not the Spirit is in the heart of an individual.

Herman the simple

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

Thank you, as usual, for your good remarks. Your are correct when you say that perhaps I did not understand Irineu's point.

Over twenty five years ago, while visiting another Orthodox monastery, the reading during the meal concerned Truth and heterodox. I do not know the author, but the person used a fully armed ancient soldier to make his comparison of Orthodoxy to other non-Orthodox Christians.

He said that one soldier might have a sword, but no sheild; another mught have a helmet, but no weapon; another a javelin, but no armor, while the True Christian soldier has put on the true "armor of light," being fully equipped for spiritual warfare.

My remarks were indeed limited to Padre Pio's Stigmata, and my reason for mentioning it it there is an inherent danger for Orthodox Christians to become enamored of the "works" of the Latins and other non-Orthodox.

I do not question as to whether or not God works miracles through others-there is indeed ample proof of this. Yet I am concerned when Orthodox acquaintences of mine glowingly talk about the spirituality and sanctity of St.Francis. Fr. George Macris wrote an excellent article in which he compare the spirituality of St. Seraphim of Sarov with that of St. Francis. There is no comparison

All too often, Orthodox people do not see the subtle dangers that lie in the willingness to glorify the actions of those outside the Fold of Christ. I do not question as to whether or not God worked miracles through Padre Pio - I just questioned the phenomena of the Stigmata. But I do question as to whether or not it is good for an Orthodox Christian to involve himself in the cultus of that saint or any Catholic saint, for that matter.

Herman, it is very easy to see others as beeing "good," or "nice," or even "holy.' The present Pope of Rome is acclaimed a living saint by millions, while it is not clearly seen that he has had the Catholic Church in a virtual choke-hold during his entire pontificate. After Vatican II, it was widely proclaimed that the bishops would enjoy more "collegiality," and that the Pope would listen to their advise. This has never come about, and this Pope IS the Church. Look how he has set up artificial dioceses -twelve of them in Russia, for a mere 600.000 people.

If we look at others with worldly eyes rather than spiritual eyes, then we will always be lacking in discernment and will see nothing. With such a manner of thinking, millions and millions will be seduced by all the "good" that the Anti-Christ will be doing for the world. Hd too will work wonders and mireacles, he will seemgly cure the ills and solve the problems of the world - then he will reveal himself fof the true Evil that he is. My spiritual Father has taught me, as did his spiritual father before him to be "spiritually suspicious" of situations and of people. How many people have been taken in by false prophets.

Perhaps Padre Pio was a saint and found righteousness in God's eyes. For myself, I would rather look to someone like St. John of San Francisco and Shanghai, or St. Jonah of Manchuria, or St. Nektarios of Pentapolis, for they all had the fragrance of the True Church about them, and I do not wish to put my faith in or pray to someone, no was not in the Church founded by our Savior.

I well realize that people will call me "reactionary," or "narrow-minded," or as some more modernist Orthodox might say, "fundamentalist." I do not mind, for I do not wish to be counted in the number of people like the Patriarch of Rumania who actively seeks union with Rome. When I became Orthodox, I dusted from my shoes all of my Roman Catholic beliefs and considerations.

In 1999, by a fluke I went to Rome. I met a woman in St. Peter's basilica who gave me tickets for me and my host to attend a canonization of nine Spaniards. As the Pope entered the geat Basilica, a choir sang "Thou art the ruler of the entire universe, and all the princes of the world bow before Thee." (from the service of enthronization of a Pope) This sent aa shudder through my entire body, and I crossed myself and thanked God that He had lead me out of this place.

Irineu, please forgive me, but you are making statements and attempting to teach others while at the same time you state on another thread that you pray very little. (at which you post a he-he) It is better for your soul's sake to heartfully say all of your Orthodox prayers-no priest, no monk will ever tell you that just to say the Jesus Prayer is sufficient. By not living a full Orthodox life, you are exposing yourself to many dangers. My loving words to you are the same as I say to others: Say your morning and evening prayers faithfully, go to confession and communion, keep the Fasts of the Church, and try to repent of your sins. I lovingly suggest that you read many lives of Orthodox saints, especially those from the beginning of the nineteenth century-St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Ignatius Briachaninov, the Optina Elders, St. John of Kronstadt and St. Nektarios. These saints are closer to us in time, and you will see how marvelous were their holy lives and miracles.

God bless and keep you, dear Irineu. Thanks again, Richard. Richard, the Orthodox Church teaches that she has the Fullness of Grace and the Fullness of Truth, yet she also states that she does not judge non-Orthodox, for God who created all of Mankind in His image knows the hearts and actions of all people. Being fully armed like that ancient soldier, our responsibility to live the Truth is greater, but many of us will be lost, while many others will be found to be righteous.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Moses Anthony]

Fr.Averky

Forgive me for imposing my thoughts into your convrsation with Irineu and Richard. I am humbled by your response.In that vein I offer my thoughts!

If we as Christians are of finite nature, how is it that we can then say to the one whom we call God, indivisible and incomprehensible, that His grace cannot be given to anyone outside "our" little group. To say that it seems a little presumptuous of us to make such statements, is the epitome of understatements.

From the perspective of history; and from the pages of Holy Scripture, we see that wherever God has led anyone, He's provided everything needed to fulfill all that which He has commanded. We say, in such instances God has provided gifts in His people.

I am reminded of the cartoon Gasoline Alley, which appeared in the Sunday paper years ago. I cut it out, laminated it and put it on our refrigerator for a while. The female character was in a church (with stained glass windows) with her little daughter. Along with the priest they were discussing the figures represented in the windows, when the mother asked her little girl if she knew who saints were. The little girl answered "Saints are people who God's light shines through."

I personally see it as being dangerous, not just focusing on the occurrance of "stigmata", but also the "light of Tabor". As it appears to me -unschooled as I am in the finer points of Orthodoxy -being so preoccupied draws attention away from where it should be focused, obedience to the light (direction) which we currently have. For whether we are speaking of "grace" as gifts for the performance of a task, or "grace" as unmerited favor/mercy, we are speaking of that which is entirely an action of Almighty God! As the Apostle Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, "...but we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness may be of God and not of us."

It appears to me that our concern should be not with whether or not miracles are wrought by our hands. Or whether, centuries later we're canonized as saint, but that at the final judgement we hear, "Well done, thy good and faithful servant." One servant planted another watered, and still another reaped, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor maybe in this world, but certainly in the next!

the unworthy servant

[irineu]

Dear All

I am sorry to say but I got what I feared that will cause such a discussion. My question was simple and it is not new in the history of the church. Moreover it was a honest question with a precise point, that of grace and sainthood outside of visible boundaries of the church.

I do not see any reason Fr. Averky for us to discuss a range of problematic issues between the two churches, moreover seemingly as if that's what I wanted from my question.

We come in forums as discutants without knowing each other.
Sometime I notice that fear and disturbance of comfortable live within a controlled enviroment expresses itself with not a genuine love about the those who live not a fully orthodox life, as it is usually judged.


Yes, I do pray a little

why should this be evaluated in here, forgetting that this "little" might be much more then all the prayers of someone else compared to possibilities and the gospels clearly says that.

Still, always I will say I pray a little, because this is the best evaluation i can give to myself.

I am not Rumanian, but also I do respect that church and I trust the efforts of its Patriarch, unless heresy will be widely confirmed.
Why Rumanian? You pater are Russian! Believe me, ?I have seen among russian primates strange behaviours as well. Annexing; creating your onw circle and power; absorbing; assimilating...This is human nature., from which even church members coouldnt be saved.

The worst situation I feel reading church history is that many times the orthodox party seems like it is very eager to declare heretics, to damp someone rather then be a integrating force, creating more difficult situations then they actually are, and this doesnt come from love.

I thought that it would have been enough to answer only the point raised without creating other issues (moreover I didnt even say padre Pio is a saint! Questioning sainthood doesnt mean thaty you declare someone to be a saint!)

But still, thank you

and again all respects!

see you again

[Fr Averky]

Dear Irineu and James,

I thank you for your good words and I have given them some thought, since right after I read your posts, the electricity went out for two hours. What I am going to say is not aimed at either of you, but is my long-standing feeling about certain issues, so please do not take my words personally.

I simply do not understand why so many Orthodox Christians feel uncomfortable with the fac that the Orthodox Church says openly and factually that she is the True Church of Christ, proclaimed by the Apostles, shown by the writings of the fathers, and declared by the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

I find it distressing that so many converts for some strange reason feel that they have to give some validity to their former Church in order to give themselves some sort of credulity of ever having been a Christian. And that really is not the point at all. All of us who have embraced Orthodoxy had to have some spark, some inclination, some grace from God to leave the faith of our fathers and enter an entirely new culture, new languages, an entirely different ethos.Yes,we were Catholics or Episcopalians or Baptists, or whatever, but now, "We have seen the Light, we have found the True Faith, worshipping the Holy Trinity, which has saved us!" We have to put or hands to the plow and never look back. I observe too many people looking back, and then they begin to falter. If one looks at the well-known Hapgood translation of the late nineteenth century Book of Needs, one will see that at that time great econony was ganted by the Russian Orthodox Church to those who wished to embrace Orthodoxy. In the service designated for Catholics or Lutherans or even Muslims, one of the acts of the newly-received Orthodox Christian is to public renounce his former beliefs.

Irineu, read again wha I wrote to you - I did not say whether or not I believe Padre Pio is a saint, and I did not question as to whether or not he might have worked any miracles. What I did say was that I personally do not think it a good thing for Orthodox Christians to become too enamored of non-Orthodox saints.

As a child, I was taught that the Catholic Church is the Mother Church, and that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Many years later after becoming Orthodox, I had a conversation with the older brother of one of our monks who is a Roman Catholic priest. When I mentioned to him what we once all had been taught, he said to me "We used to think that we were the true Church, but now we have come to realize that the Holy Spirit is just "too big" for any one Church. Metropolitan Philaret of blessed memory clearly and firmly stated that the ecumenical movement is the greatest heresy to ever attack the Church is the ecumenical movement because itsadherents try to say that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH can be present and act in a dizzying number of organizations calling themselves Churches, and whose grand plan is to unite all groups calling themselves "Christian." no matter how diverse or ioncongruent their beliefs might be, into to one large group, which they bodly wish to call the "Church." The Holy Spirit acts where there is Truth.

Each one of us is a recipient of God's grace-the grace to be a parent, a husband, a wife; the grace to be a child - the grace to be a priest, a monk, a nun, or a bishop. It is for us to accept that grace and to let it shine in our lives and out of our lives to others.

Ireneu, I mentioned your praying, much or little, because you seemed to make rather light of it, and as you point out, since we do not know each other, it did make me wonder. I was quite taken aback when you stated that because you say the Jesus Prayer, all other prayers are "unecessary." I have never heard another Orthodox Christian say such a thing. I am not judging you-I am telling you the impression you made on me by your own words. I am content with the inspiration that you received from your friend, but I simply have stated what I feel in this matter, and others will confirm that rarely do I give my own "opinion."

To me, the bottom line is that we are either Orthodox or we are not. Far to many people convert, yet in the end have but a veneer of Orthodoxy, holding on to far too many of their old beliefs. In saying this, I am in no wise speaking about you or anyone on this forum. I have been a priest for over twenty years and in this life for twenty eight. In that time, I have seen so many people come and be "Super Orthodox," knowledgeable about canons, jurisdictions, who does and who does not have grace, who is holy and who is a heretic. And now where are they? They are long gone, and long ago gave up their Orthodoxy. Once we gave a ride from our monastery to New York to a deacon who was a conveert. His job was that of bewing a cook for a prominent monsignor in Manhattan. During the entire trip he could only speak about how "similar" the two Churches really and that he felt the presence of God in the Blessed Sacrament. This made us very uncomfortable, so we hardly responded at all. A few months after that journey, the deacon left the Orthodox Church and was received into the Catholic Church. This was over twenty five years ago, and I still pray for that man, for he had "the one thing needful" within his grasp, but let it go.

James, in making my earlier remarks, it was my intention, but alas not clearly so, to say that we really have to decide for ourselves as Orthodox Christian where the Truth lies. The Orthodox Church is not exclusive, but inclusive. We have to firmly know and believe in our hearts that our precious Orthodoxy is that which Christ founded. As to non-Orthodox, a person once wrote a letter to St. Theophan the Recluse, asking if the Roman Catholics and Lutherans could be saved. The saint answered in the following manner: "Why do you concdrn yourselfs with them? They have a Saviour who look after them; but if you ever give up your Orthodox Fatih, you assuredly will lose your soul!" This Ireneu, is why I am very concerned for the Patrarch of Rumania, who has openly declared his desire to unite with Rome. I pray that he will remain firm in his Orthodoxy, and not be lost. I am not condemning him or being a mindless reactionary. I try to be careful before I make certain statements. An Old Calendar Rumanian bishop who had spent eight years in prison for adhering to the Julian Calendar, went to see Patriarch Theoctist not long after his release. When the bishop asked the patriarch his opinion about ecemenism, the patriarch replied that at Holy Cross seminary in Boston there is a famous statue of Patriarch Athenagoras, and that Athenagoras is holding a chalice in his hand. "It is my heart's desire to one day commune from one cup with our Roman Catholic brothers." To this, the Old Calendarist replied that he would be willing to spend an additional eight years in prison, or even the rest of his life rather than to compromise his Orthodoxy. I know that this story is true, because the bishop told me himself. His name is Demostet.

Irineu, my concerns for you are pastoral and not academic. I have no intention of arguing with you or anyone else for that matter as to who has grace-as I stated above-each of us is given God's grace-it is what we do with it that is important. As to your prayers, when you pray, please remember me, as I now will you in my own poor prayers.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[irineu]

Thanks pater Averky!

But if we want to discuss why converted people continue to look back, then ok we can do that.
The thing is that when we answer completely another issue from the one at hand then that makes one feel being misunderstood and misjudged.

Personally I dont think I do not give much thought on orthodoxy. On the contrary in my case I think we have to do with the total opposite side, and when it comes to this point you would see me "outraged" about orthodoxy....

Therefore I felt free to ask, hoping that the question would not give rise to suspicions.
Asking someone straightforward to the point, without thinking about backgrounds it means trust and evaluation, at least for me. It is a matter of Freedom. I am happy that a convert still has the freedom of looking back. I am happy that a convert might have the freedom to doubt. I am also happy that a converts as free persons hasvethe responsibility for their own freedom and actions.

Therefore I do not get sadened when I see him shakened in his faith.

Pater, I see often a certain Fear among clergy from those who are suspicios, who seemingly support something not of the church. It is like a fear of loosing numbers or loosing interest, at a time when actually the case might be simply because sometime these converts feel being under a strict isolation on behalf of being part of body of Christ, whereas those outside are heretics, dangerous...


within the orthodoxy there is a great risk of falling into phariseism, i.e getting cmoforted with the idea that you are right, and exluding everything you see out of your circle.
But this might be possible in a monastery, not in the society we live in.

I personally know Catholic priests who have been 27 years in the communists prisons under enormous tortures; I know how they died in misery but with their faces shining like sun; I got to know, shared the same building, with the guy I mentioned was from Napoli, and all these people I cannot simply ignore because they are out of my own circle, because even if I do this, that would solve nothing out, if not will demage. I also knew a catholic mother, whose son that had died was apparently very much alike of mine, and she loved me much. One day she told me that during the last moments before her sons death, he said to her "Mum, I see The mother of God coming next to me"....On which canon shall I ignore this mother?

Do you see?

Imagine the same goes for catholics who experience orthodox spiritual live, although they might strongly believe they are the true church!

Personally

I could refute everyone from converts of protestant world who might still want to justify some of his old practicies, but I feel in difficulty to refute sometime some "heretics" who pray Trinity with the same dedication as we do; who pray Holy Virgin in the same way; Who believe in real presence of Body and Blood on the Holy Communion; Who venerate the church fathers; who share almost 1000 of common history; who venerate saints; who practice sacraments.


STILL I AM NOT TRYING TO GO OUTSIDE OF MY AUTHORITY IN UNITING SOMETHING THAT HASNT BEEN BLESSED FROM THE PROPER PERSONS, AND I THINK I HAVE SO MUCH HUMILITY AS TO KEPP MYSELF INTO THE FAITH SIMPLY EVEN BECAUSE OUT AT LEAST OF HOLY OBIDIENCE, but also I admit the difficulties of every day live we come across.

Apart of that pater I havent said that people should replace the canon of the prayers with the Jesus prayer, but that for me, for personal reasons, Jesus prayer in the form of Saint Kosmas of Etolia, not only it has been the most blessed one, but also it has replaced many other ones, not because I ignore them.
Remember the russian pelgrin, he had only a prayer rope with him.


Always your student and servant, pater Averky, please accept our little rebellions.


Irineu!

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Fr. Averky,

Father bless,


"Your are correct when you say that perhaps I did not understand Irineu's point."

Yes, but it was my fault that caused the misunderstanding as it was I who drew the focus away from Irineu's question to the issue of the Stigmata, as Irineu graciously pointed out, and for which I again apologize.

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

Thank you again for your concern. Not to worry, for Irineu choses to be combative rather than to at least allow me to make a point, whether it is about his original question or not. I have attempted to explain myself, but will no further. I will no longer look at this particular thread.

Richard, my respect for you has grown greatly because of your sincerety and honesty and patience in all matters. I am sure that God has given you the Grace to be as courteous and thoughtful as you always are, and by it you are gaining salvation

Fr. A.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Matthew P. and others,

I have deleted the post containing the Life of St Mary of Egypt, as this text is published in formatted form on the website and can be read here (http://monachos.net/monasticism/mary_of_egypt/life.shtml). There are also other materials on St Mary (http://monachos.net/monasticism/mary_of_egypt/index.shtml).

As the text of the Life is quite long, it is better not to duplicate it here in the boards.

With thanks, INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Ireneu,

What is your own belief regarding grace and sainthood outside of the Church?

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Matthew,

Irineu reminds me chillingly of " A Desert Aspirant," so I will not include myself on any of his threads.

With much respect,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Members,

To get a good perspective on the "Stigmata," go to:

orthodoxcanada.org/062002/articles.html

The author, the late Fr. George Macris compares the spirituality of St. Seraphim of Sarov with that of St. Francis of Assisi.

Of course we should have respect for seperated Christians, but we need not go so far as to decide for ourselves as Orthodox Christians regarding grace or sanctity in regards to them. As James Anthony pointed out, on the Day of Judgement each of us will stand alone before God and all of our works, good or evil will be accounted for. As I have suggested to so many before, it is of the greatest importance that each of us individually prepare ourselves for eternal life.


Although in my most recent post I said that I would not enter this thread again, I remembered Fr. George's article, and felt compelled to bring it to your attention. There are very sound reasons why unity between Rome and the Orthodox Church has not taken place, and it is for us Orthodox to maintain as pure our own Orthodox beliefs. God knows the hearts of Roman Catholics and all other non-Orthodox. It is for Him, and Him alone to judge the souls of those who are not part of the Orthodox Church. Let us heartfully pray that all with the name of Christian will not experience spiritual death, but will be converted and live.

Prayer is our clearest and most sure conduit for God's grace to us in our daily lives. Without prayer there is no Life. We do not be need to be among the very well educated, or "sophisticated." rather we should be "meek and humble of heart" as our Lord gave Himself as an example to do. Jesus Christ, the Creator of all, Who is All Wisdom, All Power, All Glory, came into this world as a small, poor Child. He did not use His powers to destroy His enemies, and He told Pilate that He could if He wished. He came with mercy and the desire to save fallen Mankind. And at the end, He founded One Church, not 27,000.

Let us not confuse ourselves with the beliefs of others. We can all study to the very end of our days and we will never even begin to comprehend the vast treasury and the deep spiritual knowledge found in Holy Orthodoxy. It is not necessary for us to be urbane and broad-minded in regards to what constitutes the Church. We are part of it, and we have a great task before us.

I grow in my respect for Richard Leigh, for he is honest and up front about his Lutheran view of Christianity, yet he has great respect for the Orthodox Church and its teachings without compromising his Protestantism.

Dear Friends, I have gone on, as usual, too long. I am just very concerned for the salvation of each and every one of you, whether you are Orthodox or not. As long as a man lives his Truth and loves God and his neighbor, God will judge his life accordingly.

We as Orthodox Christians have the Fullness of the Truth, so our responsibility is great. It is very dangerous to mix Orthodox ideas with that of other Churches, for eventually we can become too willing to compromise our Truth in the name of "Universal Love." Forgive me for going on so.

With love and respect,

Fr. A.

[Daniel Jeandet]

True Christianity is vanishing from the face of the earth.

We all see this and we all know how we ourselves contribute to this apostasy.

How much time do we have left? Enough time to waste on some elses beliefs?

I know a priest who has pictures of Francis of Asisi and Mother Theresa next to his real Icons. I dont care, it has nothing to do with me. Only God knows this mans heart and only God knows THE FUTURE OF THIS MAN. The problem as I see it, is that some people who see the pictures in his house are scandalised and ask questions. The priest, for some reason, refuses to remove the pictures even for the sake of these weak people who cannot just accept his strangeness or simply have nothing to do with him again, if they are really concerned. He stands by the practice and then the problem gets worse. He has a RIGHT i suppose, to pray to venerate whatever he wants.

The point is, why get involved in all this rubbish? The enemy benefits from division and suspicion and endless questions and argueing, much more than he benefits from someones wierd practice or non-Orthodox thinking that might, for all we know, be only temporary or just imature.

So we need to be carefull. If we have doubts about our faith, lets share them with doubters and athiests or ecumenists, since they are the experts on doubt.

And if we are confronted by doubters and athiests and others, let us defend our faith without being insulting or posting pointless personal arrows at these poor, lost souls. Let us just pray for them and ignore as much as we can there errors and endless spiraling mind trips and "chewing gum for the brain".

We are running out of time.

[Richard Leigh]

Thank you Father Averky for both of your kind compliments.

I would also like to say, to the whol community on this thread that freely speaking with the outsider can be good for both. One might take the example of Jesus who spoke to a Samaritan woman about the superiority of His Jewish religion to her Samaritan one (only after being asked), and of course the utmost superiority of Himself as source for the True water of life! And he also spoke to the Syro-phoenician woman, who like the Samaritan has Orthodox faith!

My point here is that we non-Orthodox gain tremendously from your talking to us, or from overhearing your talking to one another.

In the mean time, don't you find your own faith strengthened when challenged to make a case for it to the rest of us? I do. I think it is a good idea for the mature to understand the differences and the firm ground on which they're own difference stands.

Respectfully yours,

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Richard,

I understand what you are saying, and I can agree with you. I do not wish to censor the thoughts or ideas of others. I did feel a bit beleagured when I wanted to make a statement, even if it was not exactly to the point, while elements of what I had to say were in fact very much to the point.

When I gave what is the usual Orthodox point of view, I was dismissed as if I had no idea what I was talking about. All of us have learned a great deal from you and others, and hope to learn more. Perhaps my feeble excse might be that I am still rather ill, and cannot shake my malaise.

As a Lutheran, you know that even among Lutherans, there are sharp divisions, some Synods having views which would absolutely shock Martin Luther. The Missouri and especially the Wisconsin Synods are quite different than the larger Synods in this country, and quite different yet from the Lutheran Churches in Germany and Sweden. I belong to a conservative part of the Orthodox Church, one whose bishops have struggled, almost alone at times, to preservd the pure Faith given to them.

As you know, I was raised a Roman Catholic and I have good Roman Catholic priest friends who tell me that the vast majority of contemporary Catholics do not even believe in the True Presence! Also, they tell me that ninety percent of their parishioners never go to confession, but commune every Sunday. Prominent Catholic Theologians have said that the bodily resurrection of Christ was really symbolic, while others have put doubt on the existence of both the devil and angels. I point this out because pre-Vatican II Catholicism was a very different than the Church which has replaced it.

I have said repeatedly that I do not know about the sanctity of those outside Orthodoxy, and have given clear examples of how grace can work in all people. Yet I am basically being told by others that I am being unkind and intolerant. If Daniel is correct in saying that True Christianity is leaving the world, then it might be because Orthodox people seem at times ashamed to confess and proclaim the truth which is the Orthodox Church. Generally all Christians with the exception of Pentecostals, want to keep religion out of their daily conversation. Most people would never know that lots of people with whom they are acquainted are Orthodox Christians.

How often do we hear the words, "We all worship the same God, right?" No, we do not. The differences are vast, and it does no one any good to pretend that they do not exist. If I stand alone in this, then I do, but as have said before, it is not a matter of personalities. The Fathers who were champions of the Faith did not worry about what others thought: St. Mark of Ephesus stood alone, but in the end, Orthodoxy triumphed.

Forgive me Richard, Daniel, and Irineu if I offend, but out of love for Christ and my Church, and out of my sincere love for all of you, I can be only be true and honest to myself and to you. I cannot be forced to change my views because of the opinions of others.

It seems to me that no one has really taken the time to read what I have to say very carefully at all, and have reacted to what they think I have said, or that I have not said what people wanted to hear. It is my duty as an Orthodox Christian, a monk and a priest, to stand up that which I have been taught. I say this with love for all of you and the sincere desire for your salvation. God bless you!

Fr. A.

[Arsenios]

Richard writes:


My point here is that we non-Orthodox gain tremendously from your talking to us, or from overhearing your talking to one another.

I went over to Theology Web and dropped in on the usual run of [heterodox] discussions going on there - it is a large and active board, whose by-line is "We debate theology seriously" - And if I were a Protestant, I would much rather hang out here, or on other Orthodox boards, than on that one - And I should hasten to add that they are a really good and great bunch over there at T-Web... It is just that when a really enlightening post is made there, it is usually enlightening only for scholars...


In the mean time, don't you find your own faith strengthened when challenged to make a case for it to the rest of us?

My faith is not all that challenged by words about faith - It is challenged by the actions of an impure heart, and the grace of God Who arranges matters in such a way that I have an opportunity to empty out the foulness that so abundantly seeks to assert itself from me...

For awhile lately I was wondering if I was being strengthened in the Faith at all, so little progress could I discern in myself, actually seeing only back-sliding and vascillation... Until I turned on the radio in my car two days ago, went through 5 stations, two of them Christian radio, and could not stand to keep listening to what I was hearing, so abrasive and offensive was it to my ears, and I thanked God for showing me that unseen progress is still progress, thereby increasing my faith in what I cannot see even in myself... For the last time I had listened to the radio some months ago, I had listened avidly, and with interest... Glory to God that is gone now, or at least it was two days ago...


I do.

Protestants do indeed seem to enjoy and find strength in exchanges of ideas with those with whom they disagree... Kind of along the idea that an idea is no good until it is tested and refined in the fires of debate... For the Orthodox, the testing is less verbal and more ontological - Indeed non-verbal... For with us, the struggle is within, and it is to the death, and in overcoming our adversaries in this arena with God's help, we find strengthening of our faith...


I think it is a good idea for the mature to understand the differences and the firm ground on which they're own difference stands.

You could be right -

I am not mature, so I do not know, for I am filled with passions and desires and lustings of the eyes and the pallate and of the comforts of the flesh and the avoidances of pain and even discomforts... I have no maturity at all... Not to mention arrogance and sloth...

geo

[Richard Leigh]

Dear George,

Thank you for your excellent and enlightening respones to my post!

Richard

[irineu]

Hi Mathew!

First of all, congratulations for this forum and website as it is really helpful.

Secondly, you are making a realy difficult question to me, because:

1. I prefer to keep quite in my own statements, and pay a lot of attention in what the elders of the church say.

2. I, probably, lack the necessarily length of time and experience, be that spiritual one, to come to a sort of definitive personal opinion.

It is therefore that I asked the clergy in here. But, unfortunately, it has happened loads of times, instead of an simple striaghtforward answer, one gets a lot of criticism and worries about even Salvation of the questioner's soul!

But also, as it is humanly, going far deep into myself, I, of course, hide a personal opinion, WHICH I ALWAYS AM READY TO SUBDUE TO THE ONE OF THE CHURCH, if that will come to be a against it.


So, speaking of that inner opinion which I can allow myself, I have to say that:

1. I do believe that outside of the visible Body of Christ there is grace at various measures, but I dont believe, that outside of It can be saints.
It is the same as in Old Testament, where Prophethood could not have been received unless one was the jewish nation or even teachings/promisses.
Still righteosness was widely recognised even among non-jews!

If someone has that sort of sainthood as it is only for those who were saints, then this person is a saint, not simply a partaker in Grace of God, and as such he is part of Body of Christ.

The live examples as seen among few or many orthodox and catholic saints are not to be found in other branches of christianity, not even Coptic (as far as I know), let alone protestants.

There are too many examples we can mention, apart of the orthodox ones, like Antonio di Padova, Francis of Assisi, Thomas Becket...to come to the last ones like Mother Theresa and Padre Pio, who are officially outside of the church.
Let me mention that in my country, which is Albania, there is a sanctuary of Antonio di Padova, where since years miracles dont cease to take place, witnessed many times by many people of all faiths, as it is probably one of the most visited sanctuaries in Europe.


2. Interessingly, I have noticed few times in the history of the church, how two primates will excommunicate each other, only to be known afterwards both as saints of the church, which means they have been righteous even at the time they were in division; or how sometime one will be condemned from the church, only to be found righteous or even a saint later on.
One example is saint John Chrysostomos.

3. What was the historical context and validity of the schisma in 1054?

I come to hear, that in order to be a real and ful valid Union, the western Church has to become fully orthodox (i.e byzantian), at a time when Latin liturgy, monastic costume and their own ecclesiastical tradition was present of the pre-schisma time, when east and west were one church.


4. The position of orthodox church towards cathlics is not unike, which means that Father Averkie's opinion might be of a part of the orthodox church, but not of the whole one, not even of a common orthodox concil one...

there are orthodox churches which would recognise a certain grace of catholic sacraments; for example they would chrismate instead of rebaptize the catholic converts; or they wouldnt reordain a catholic priest into a orthodox one; or that they would accept catholic sacraments provided there is no orthodox church around.

I have heard once a orthodox priest saying that catholics are held among general orthodox opinion compared as of a "sick, ill person" who although ALIVE, does not have the fulness of health.

He also said that orthodox position is merely as, we know for sure that orthodoxy saves, and we cannot judge about the others.


5. I do not know. This is my ultimate answer, Mathew, and probably the best one. Nor is it my serious concern, somehow, as it may seem to Father Averky.

But also, let us remember:

- it is very easy, including all those rules of stricktly orthodox persons, keeping strongly on orthodox laws, rules, who is outside of what we see as church and who isnt, we would have somehow excluded even Jesus Christ, the same as Pharises did once, keeping their strick Sabath by accusing Jesus, the Lord of Sabath, for braking it, according to their rules and laws...

and actually, sometime, if you watch the way zealos orthodox people act, one would have thought even pharises were right to accuse Jesus for heretic.

In the same way, as controversial it might seem to be, also ordinary people come to see real presence of God, saints, events that they, like the ordinary jews in case of Jesus, accept as they are without being able to recall canons in order to judge.
None of the jews found Jesus to be Son of God because he was exactly fulfiling canons of Pharises, which werent wrong, but by what He was doing, which many times led scholars to suspicions, and not all of them had an evil heart, as it is portrayed many times.

for example, I am amazed how many times jews accepted that they could not respond to Jesus, as it was the case with Saint Magdalene, where Jesus told them to throw the stone the first who has never sinned, so that they couldnt act.
If it were for modern pharises, they would have responded easely, well, that is not how the law judges adultery, and so they would have stoned her.

thanx, and always student!


__________________

6. I AM NOT TEACHING ANYONE...

[Arsenios]

Georgewrote:


I am not mature

I was reading Luke this morning, where Christ asked the Jews about John, and the roughness of his diet and clothing... And John was mature in the faith - Very mature... And he was physically mature in the faith... Meaning that he did not profess faith with his mouth, having only his spoken words turned away from the world and toward God, but indeed his whole body. Listen to Luke 7:24-5:

24 And when the messengers of John had departed, He began to speak unto the people concerning John: "What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25 But what went ye out to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they that are gorgeously appareled and live luxuriously are in kings' courts.

"A reed shaken in the wind?" indeed!!

It is we who are clothed in the soft raiment of the gorgeously appareled, living luxuriously in the courts of the king - Who sit forth in sumptuous comfort at the banquet of the feastings of the rich, with Prime Rib au Jus, and hundred dollar bottles of wine... That is us - And even if we have but a fifteen dollar bottle of wine, and a steak on the grill from Safeway, we are fatted... Even if we have but a Big Mack and fries and a soda... And cars, and nice clothes...

Camel hair robe... The most uncomfortable thing you can imagine...

And have you ever found a jar of honey-roasted locusts at Safeway?

We are but weeds shaken in the wind!

The evidence of maturity of faith is normally well within the range of normal visual discernment, however well hidden those who have it tend to conceal themselves... As they should...

The keeping of one's eyes upon God will of necessity keep them from being turned upon the concerns of the world, and indeed in the denial of these concerns, as maturity deepens...

And the wonderful thing I see in Orthodoxy is a parish of sinners in differing degrees of progress upon this path, which leads forth from and within the arena of the heart... And each of us confessing to be the chief of sinners... Which each of us in truth are...

So Richard, is this how you understand maturity of faith?

Arsenios... [sinner]

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky,

Thank you as well for your kind response to me.

Let me make a few comments. Yes, there are divisions among the Lutherans, I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran. We were once in pulpit and altar fellowship (= communion) with the Wisconsin Synod but there was disunity between us regarding prayer with Other professed Christians, we believe there is no offense to God for us to do so, they consider all others heretical enough to make it odious to God to do so. We are also in disagreement about ecclesiology, but that is not considered in Lutheranism to be a communion breaking difference on its own. The Evenagelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in the Ukrain is I think a memeber of the Lutheran World Federation (we are not, for unionistic reasons). It is also in pulpit and altar fellowship with the Wisconsin Synod. We are in such fellowhisp with the Ingria (Russian) Lutheran Church. Some division continues over the ordination of women to the "called and Ordained ministry of Word and Sacrament" (tantamount to the presbyterial or priestly) ministry. Other Readers be warned, I do not bring this up because I want it discussed at all on this thread, I only intend to acknowledge the truth of your words, Fr. A. regarding division and diversity in our church.

I will break ranks from the others you mentioned for whom I cannot speak, but I certainly have not misuderstood you, I take no offense at your words either. I hear loudly and clearly your responsibility to speak accurately for Orthodoxy, and you do this well. It certainly needs to be heard. I think it is supposed to be clear to all hearers (expecially the Orthodox) that the priest must needs be speaking for the church, thus not offering private opinion, otherwise, what use would it be to ask the priest the question regarding teaching? So, I hope it is safe to say, having heard (read) your statements, that the Orthodox church recognizes that God's Grace cannot be humanly bound or delimited (God make's His own decisions without asking our counsel), and that no individual in the church can make a judgment regarding where God has shed His grace outside the limits observable to Orthodoxy. As well, that one can form a private opinion (which will, I hope always remain tentative, at least in this life) regarding grace which may seem quite readily to be the true variety when experienced with another struggler along the way. So dear Father Averky, let this be an encouraging word to you (I know that in Orthodoxy "blessings" do not "flow uphill", so let me just encourage you). You are both read and understood; your word is both accepted and lived by.

One thing that I have learned along the Way is that we are all here for each other's good.

May God be praised!

Richard

P.s., to all and sundry, I will take questions regarding Lutheran matters as private posts from any who might have them. I don't mean to sound antagonistic or defensive at all. I will be more than glad to correct any forum wide misstatements about what my church teaches on the forum, but I do not intend to be polemical in the least. --RL

P.p.s., again for all and sundry, be aware that it was originally the intention of the Lutheran Reformation to "be Orthodox", but please be aware that for them that meant as Orthodoxy was understood in the Latin west, complete with filioque in particuar and Augustine's trinitarian doctrine in general. I would, BTW welcome a discussion on the forum of the relatively new "unity statement" made between the Orthodox and the Lutherans regarding this very issue of the filioque (do we really worship the same trinity, as it says? Can that even be true?) If of course we can discuss it without being polemical, and practice "dispassion" a great Ortrhodox concept, to my mind! ---R

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear in the Lord, Irineu,

I am happy to see your response. I will try to address your points as indicated. Firstly, you wrote:


I prefer to keep quite in my own statements, and pay a lot of attention in what the elders of the church say.

This is certainly fair enough (and wise). However, since you have asked for the beliefs of others (most specifically the clergy of the forum), it is appropriate for you also to say a word -- be it only a brief word -- as to your own 'approach' or 'stance' on the question you have posed. You will understand, I am certain, that in public fora such as this, an almost 'unusual' level of openness is helpful to avoid the confusions and traps of misinterpretation to which the electronic medium naturally gives rise.


[...] It is therefore that I asked the clergy in here. But, unfortunately, it has happened loads of times, instead of an simple striaghtforward answer, one gets a lot of criticism and worries about even Salvation of the questioner's soul!

Please do not be offended, but I think that perhaps you have been too swift to misjudge the responses you have received. It is helpful to remember that Orthodox theology is 'holistic' and 'practical' (which term I draw from praxis, meaning 'practice' or 'activity'; not to imply the connotation of 'useful' in what can easily be an unhealthy approach): as such, there are very few questions of 'theology' which can be rent from considerations of the life of faith lived by the practicing believer. All questions are ultimately questions about one's salvation -- so do not be too surprised in the receipt of responses to 'academic' questions, which throw the weight of the discussion back to the 'practical', to the life of faith. Take heart. The fact that one or another reader and responder will relate a question on the stigmata or grace outside the Church to the notion of your own salvation is a sign of love, not chastisement. And it is a healthy reminder that absolutely no question has value for 'theology' unless it relates, in one way or another, to the approach to salvation.

As to the question of grace and the embrace of the Church...

If I might presume to summarise some of what has been posted here before, the 'general response' to the question can be reduced to the following: the Church knows and is certain of the specific activity of God's grace within the embrace of the Church which He founded and which He guides, and to which He has committed the continuance of this grace. The Church does not know, does not presume to know, and cannot claim certainty regarding the specific activities of God's grace outside of this embrace. This is not a denial of God's grace 'outside' the Church, but it is a humble confession of conviction that only within the context and culture of the Church can the certainty of promises made to the Church be upheld.

INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Moderator's note: I have moved the posts on 'homoousios' vs. 'homoiousios' to the Miaphysis (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1581) thread, where they are more topical. We shall reserve the present thread for discussion on grace vis. the Church, and closely related themes.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr John Wehling]

I enter this conversation with a great amount of trepidation, for reasons already well articulated by Fr Averky, Matthew, and others.

I read a while back -- where, though, I cannot recall -- that prior to the incarnation the saints and prophets and holy men and women of the OT experienced grace externally, rather than from within, as the deifying of our nature in Christ had not taken place. I wonder -- AND I EMPHASIZE THAT THIS IS NOT A SET TEACHING OR DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH, SO FAR AS I AM AWARE -- if in some respect we can say the same of those outside of the Church today? Do they, perhaps, receive grace but in a sort of exterior way, as the holy people of old did? I do not mean this as a sort of unbridled speculation, or even as my opinion, but only as a groping after truth.

If any of you can point me to patristic references for this I would be greatly obliged. I know that Fr Sophrony speaks of Moses in a way similar to this, but I don't recall if he ever uses this manner of speaking of grace as exterior/interior.

Peace,
Fr John

[Owen Jones]

I don't know if this will help or impede the discussion, but my understanding of true vs. false theology is that it is really a proper prescription and diagnosis of what ails us. Therefore, right or true theology is just as important to the health (salvation) of the soul as is a true doctor's diagnosis to the health of the body. And that is how we in Orthodoxy should look at salvation -- as a right ordering of the proper functions of the mind/body/soul organism -- in their inner functioning. And the test of that right inner functioning is the evidence of how one lives and in some sense radiates this health (light) outwardly. So just as you don't want to rely on quack doctors to diagnose and treat you, you also want to be very careful about the theological assumptions behind what people are telling you about the true nature of your physical/spiritual condition.

A quack doctor is going to look at the same symptoms, but come up with a totally different interpretation of them, along with a different prescription that is either not going to do any good at all, or might kill you.

And the religious universe is no different than the medical universe as a practical matter. There are any number of quack practitioners out there and it is a multi-billion dollar annual business that preys on peoples' fears mostly. The fear of illness and death being perhaps our primary or primal fears.

Now, false religion it seems to me, Biblically and patristically, is that kind of religion that exploits and builds on this fear of death, rather than on restoring the patient to a condition of health (salvation). And so they make all kinds of absolutist type claims on the person that are very enticing in order to claim your absolute allegiance (or, product loyalty). example: "If you just buy coral calcium and take 5,000 miligrams per day you will reverse the aging process -- with a money back guarantee." religious example: "If you just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are guaranteed salvation." Or, "if you recite the right prayers daily to Allah you will be guaranteed a place in heaven along with 70 virgins." This is quackery, but how do we know that? There are many competing opinions. So one observes and asks questions which, if in the right spirit, can hopefully lead one to sorting this stuff out -- the difference between quacks and the real deal. And then even if you have found the real deal, there are gradations of qualifications out there. So for a serious illness, for example, even if you have discounted the quacks, you still want to get a second or third opinion, and ask around to find out who has the best reputation. Then you go to that person with a feeling of greater confidence that you have done the best you possibly can to avoid quackery, but also find the best exemplar of the medical approach there is. This happened to my family recently, when one doctor -- well respected -- misdiagnosed my daughter as having a tumor. We did some more research, and ended up going to the best doctor in the region -- that is, the one with the best reputation among both patients and peers. And, lo and behold, she has no tumor! We avoided needless surgery and cost and anxiety.

I think it is exactly the same type of thing with theology. The theology in and of itself is not the central issue. You cannot test the theology on your own. What one needs to find is a wise holy person who exemplifies that theology, for you to have confidence in its validity as a prescription for what ails you. You have to see it working in a man's life. And that seems to me to be the tradition which Orthodoxy teaches. Now, when such people are very few and far between, as it seems to be today, what does one do? One can take a very minimalist approach, satisfied with a modicum of health, and stay away from doctors as much as you can, and this is what most of us do. Or you can go searching diligently, which is very disruptive, which is almost impossible to do when you have a wife and family to support, but hopefully there are some people willing to do that -- enough so that they can come back with enough wisdom and knowledge from their search that they can be helpful to others.

So, I think there is no problem necessarily with searching and questioning and comparing, but any search is frought with cul de sacs and dead ends and sometimes very grave perils. If someone tells us -- don't go in this direction, go in that direction -- how do we know if he is not giving us a bum stear? Without continuing on a taking the risk?

But I think the Church in its wisdom has always taught that this search is worthwile, even if and when we make mistakes, and sometimes big mistakes. I think God rewards those who seek after Him, and he deliberately makes it difficult, and makes Himself hard to find. There is no web site to look to like bestdoctors.com. And that is how it should be. And so we should not be content with facile answers, as long as the questioning and searching is done in the right spirit, and not simply as a way of certifying or validating our own opinions. We must be "open" to use the existential language these days. Or always repentant, in the traditional language.

And if we have found the right cure, that does not absolve us of the personal responsibility to then maintain our own health, and that means, paradoxically, to continue on the search, to ascend the ladder so to speak, or else we will likely return to our former state of bad health or worse.

Only God can know our true inner motive, so I think it is incumbent on religious leaders to respond to questions openly without judgment as much as possible, unless and until it becomes clear that the questioner really is not interested in hearing about painful treatments.

I know of a particular case in which a hieromonk basically released (fired) a person from his pastoral care, because he was abusing the privelege in a number of ways. But that was only after many years of patience with the person.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Arsenios,

The answer to your question to me is "Yes."

Richard

[Photini]

Dear All, This is a little story I remembered after reading the recent posts regarding St Seraphim of Sarov and Francis of Assisi. It is from the biography of St Seraphim of Sarov, by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore..New Sarov Press. I hope you enjoy it, even though it may be off topic a bit.

pg. 241-243


"A friend of mine," writes Mr. K,"forwarded to me a letter written in French in which an Alsatian lady asks him to send her something about the Russian Orthodox Church--a prayer book or something of the kind. If I am not mistaken, it was in the year 1925.
"Something was sent to her in answer to her letter, and there the matter rested for some time.
"In 1927 I was in that place and tried to make her acquaintance, but she was away for the summer holidays, and I only made the acquaintance of her mother-in-law, an old lady of great Christian charity and purity of heart.
"She told me that their family belonged to an ancient and noble line in Alsace, the N.N.s and that they were Protestants. It must be said that in this district of Alsace the villagers are of mixed faith, one-half being Roman Catholic and the other half Protestants. They share a common church, in which they perform their services in turns. At the end of the church there is a Roman altar with statues and all appurtenances. When the Protestants hold a service, they pull a curtain in front of the Catholic altar, roll their table out into the middle and pray. Recently there has been a movement in Alsace among the Protestants in favour of the veneration of the Saints. This occurred after the appearance of Sabatier's book on Francis of Assisi. Though a Protestant he was captivated by this Saint's way of life after a visit to Assisi. The family of my friends also fell under the spell of this book. Though they remained in Protestantism, they nevertheless felt dissatisfied with it and in particular they strove for a restoration of the Sacraments and the veneration of the Saints. Moreover, it was typical of them that when the pastor performed the marriage ceremony, they asked him not to pull the curtain over the Catholic altar so that they might see at least the statues of the Saints. Their heart was seeking the True Church.
"Once the young wife was ill and was sitting in the garden, reading a life of Francis of Assisi. The garden was in full bloom. The quiet of the countryside enfolded her. While reading the book, she fell into a light sleep.
"'I don't know myself how it was,' she told me afterwards. 'Suddenly I saw Francis himself coming towards me, and with him a little old man like a patriarch, bent but radiant,' she said indicating thereby his old age and venerable appearance. He was all in white. She felt frightened, but they came quite near her and Francis said, 'My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, and does not require support from anyone.'
"The white elder remained silent and only smiled approvingly at the words of Francis. The vision ended. She came to herself, as it were. And somehow the thought came to her: 'This is connected with the Russian Church.' And peace descended upon her soul."
"After this vision, the letter was written which I mentioned at the beginning.
"Two months later I was again at her house, and this time I learned from the visionary herself one more detail. They had hired a Russian workman. When she visited his room to see whether he was comfortably settled, she saw there a small Icon and recognized the Elder whom she had seen, in her light sleep, with Francis. Astonished and alarmed she asked; 'Who is he, that little old man?'
"St. Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint.' answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of Francis about the truth being in the Orthodox Church."

[Matthew Panchisin]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

I posted the life of Saint Mary of Egypt because it seems to me that within the Orthodox Church the relationship of Grace and Humility is always apparent as written of her by Saint Saphronius. Humility of life and thought. Since the salvation of our very souls are at stake it would no doubt be most wise to listen to and follow the absolutley correct doctrines of the True Church of Christ, the Orthodox Church.


In Christ,

Matthew

[John Wilson]

And have you ever found a jar of honey-roasted locusts at Safeway?
Dear Arsenios,

you may be interested to know that while pretty much every version of the bible in pretty much every language translates the greek word akrides as locusts, the word actually has two meanings, the second being "shoots". It is this that Greeks understand to have been the food of John the Baptist, "shoots and wild honey".

Unfortunately, when you read english translations of the Fathers, they are also translated as "locusts", however you will find reference to John the Baptist eating the same food as the sons of the prophets, the monks and hermits of the Old Testament, who are described as eating herbs and pottage.

Liddell, Scott and Jones Greek English Lexicon, the mainstay of scholars of ancient greek, only lists the "locusts" definition http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/lame.gif

Anyway, I thought you might appreciate this bit of information.

unworthy John.

[irineu]

Richard,

some years ago I had read the book of Richard Wumbrand, whom you mention somehwere above, "Persecuted for/because of Christ" and I was impressed by the "tragic" stories told in there. If I remember exactly, I gave that book, or I talked about that Richard to a friend of mine, if I may call him so, despite the age difference, who is a catholic priest and has been himself for 27 years jailed because of been catholic. Sometime later, it happened that I met Richard Wumbrand as he came in my country, and at the second day of his meetings I took the catholic priest with me, for him to be able to speak with Richard.

Actually as I learned later on, they got on well with each other, and they had told many stories from personal live.

To your surprise probably he told the catholic priest few stories from his personal live, which probably you might have not heard, or probably they might even not be published, therefore I wont say them, however, I can say, that he was apparently long away from official protestantism...., closer to what traditional teachings about sacraments, saint Mary and what church in general is.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Irineu,

You delight my heart! Indeed, you are correct, or, somewhat so. I know quite well of what you speak, he and his wife are personal "saints" of mine.

At his conversion to Christ from "Godless Judaism" meaning in the sense that Freud used the term of himself, i.e., a Jew by birth but not belief, Wurmbrand converted to Christianity first, then went searching for a "denomination." This was in Rumania around the period of the second World War. He fastened on Lutheranism because he liked Luther on his "good" side, and understood him on his "bad" anti-semitic side.

Coming out of prison he said "they drove me mad, you cannot expect a madman to keep his theology pure" and asked his readership to take of what he wrote what they could for their benifit.

He had a low view of the office of the ministry, so he would not have been opposed to ordination of women. He had many spiritual experiences in Prison, but even in Lutheranism what happens in one's private spiritual life is for oneself, we are just not to teach as from God what is not clear in scripture. That is not to say it isn't true (e.g., the earth is round, and it does move, and not the sun around the earth, as some [such as Luther himself] believe scripture teaches, likewise scripture teaches that all who die in Christ really live, yet it of itself gives no warrant for speaking with them, as we see it anyway, but that would not theoretically prevent one from either seeing a saint or speaking to one, it would only prevent one from publically teaching others to do the same). Please, anyone, don't let this throw you off, it is only a glimps of us Lutherans.

You might be interested to know that Wurmbrand mentions Father George Calciu (author of Christ is Calling You in one of his books of sermons preached in solitary confinement. He is the one in chains who danced...

When Wurmbrand was in the Nursing Home in California, Fr. George visited him on a regular basis. Wurmbrand told him that he thought the Mother of God would like to hear the Ave Maria in her own language and so translated it into Hebrew and sang it to her. There is actually a recording of this, I am told.

Operating his own mission, he had no concern to be politically involved in "Lutheran ministry" but he belonged to a Lutheran church which invited him to preach every Christmas. This was where I first met him.

There is website devoted to his funeral.

Good books of his to read would be Jesus on the Jewish Road, and Victorious Faith published in Great Britain as Little Notes That Like Each Other. Forgive him where he says "I would never be Orthodox" He is now (aren't we all, in Heaven?)

His doctrine on the sacraments, Holy Communion and Baptism, the only two we really have got, are expressly Lutheran though, I witnessed him baptize one of his grandchildren and heard him preach the sermon. ANd he was quite devoted to the sacrament of Holy Communion.

I think his greatest desire was to see fellow Jews won to Christ, and secondarily to see the West support those under the communist torture in the east. Politiaclly he was very conservative.

Lastly, I encourage you all to read Fr. Calciu's book, FYI, it has an endorsement of Mircea Eliade on the back --- what a small world!

Richard

[Richard McBride]

Excerpts from the first message of George Blaisdell :

My faith ... is challenged by the actions of an impure heart, and the grace of God Who arranges matters in such a way that I have an opportunity to empty out the foulness that so abundantly seeks to assert itself from me...

...For with us, the struggle is within, and it is to the death, and in overcoming our adversaries in this arena with God's help, we find strengthening of our faith...

It is just that when a really enlightening post is made there, it is usually enlightening only for scholars...

...the fires of debate...


I think it is a good idea for the mature to understand the differences and the firm ground on which they're own difference stands.

You could be right - I am not mature, so I do not know, for I am filled with passions and desires and lustings of the eyes and the pallate and of the comforts of the flesh and the avoidances of pain and even discomforts... I have no maturity at all... Not to mention arrogance and sloth...


Beloved of the Lord George

How beautifully you express the whole cosmos of Orthodoxy. I hope you don't mind me attacking it with the razor this way. But I can't help marveling over these words.
Oh, if only I could have understood as much when I was an immature kid at your age. I had the "youth", but an overwhelming stupidity.

Thank you, George.
richard mcb

[Arsenios]

Richard mcb writes:


Oh, if only I could have understood as much when I was an immature kid at your age. I had the "youth", but an overwhelming stupidity.

Dear, dear Richard -

Thinkest thou that I am young in years? I would venture to guess that you are far my junior...

But in the faith, only since Mar 5th of this year, when I was baptized - I am utterly immature... And my creaky and old body is far too accustomed to its previous level of comfort and attention... Aches and pains keep me turned from God all too easily, as I feel sorrow for my suffering, rather than joy in the Lord... I struggle to acquire the turning toward God that agonies can bring to those who are not such newbies as I am...

And I forgive you your kind words of praise... I know you meant no harm...

Arsenios

[Arsenios]

I wrote:

"And I forgive you your kind words of praise... I know you meant no harm..."

I meant to add a smiley after that sentence!

It sounds kinda harsh without one...

So how about if I give you this one:

[+8-)>>> *

Recognize him?

Arsenios


*[bemused bespectacled & bearded be-hieromonk]

:-) [geo]

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Grace

Beloved of the Lord Arsenios

The youth of which I was thinking deals with the other type you mentioned: It is not chronological age which seems to matter (to me) now, but how far I have drifted from the beautiful candor which children posses.

I think surely one of the greatest Graces offered to me has been the chance to learn from my grandchildren. Their candor is amazing. It bowls me over. And then, how long they retain it is even more wonderful. Of course, the world roughs them up and they pull back that lovely curiosity and frank appraisal of situations -- but each according to his own. I think this is truly my great lesson in life. Thanks be to God.

As for the chronological thing, now that you tell me of your recent entry into the One Apostolic and Catholic Church (which surprises me, for judging by your excellent catechism, I thought you had entered at an earlier age), I realize that I came into Orthodoxy only a couple of years younger than you. But that was over a decade ago, and I may only admire how nicely you phrase these simple issues of The Way, compared with how I struggle with the same sentiments, even now.

I pray that the Lord preserve you in your path, and give you many years.

richard mcb

[Arsenios]

John writes:


Akrides... actually has two meanings, the second being "shoots". It is this that Greeks understand to have been the food of John the Baptist, "shoots and wild honey".

Well so much for my great religious business idea of peddling jars of honey roasted locusts to unsuspecting penitents!


Anyway, I thought you might appreciate this bit of information.

Without question - And I will pass it along to my business advisor's lawyer, to see what we're gonna have to do with the jar labels to steer clear of liabilities!

Lord have Mercy!!

Thank-you, John - I had never seen it as pottage... And it makes a lot of sense. I mean, there are times when you can't find a locust period in the desert... For months!

But my question for you is, how do you happen to know the modern Greek? Or better, how did you come to find out this tid-bit? You speaka da Greeka??

And am I still on track with the uncomfortability of the camel hair tunic? [My business manager wants to know!!] :-)

No, where's that camel?!?!?

[8-)>>>

geo [Arsenios]

[John Wilson]

Dear Arsenios,

I am blessed to be living in Thessaloniki, Greece, which I suspect has the highest density of orthodox churches and monasteries in the world, so I am struggling to learn Modern Greek and hope to one day become competent in Ancient Greek.

That particular titbit came from a monk on Mt. Athos and I have since confirmed it via a couple of GOOD Greek dictionaries (there are plenty that omit it). I was bemoaning the fact that there are precious few patristic texts that are translated from the Greek into English by Orthodox (eg. most if not all of the early church Fathers are translated from the Latin translation by Catholics or Protestants), and Father Palladio pointed out that the situation was even worse than I thought http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/uhoh.gif http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/lol.gif

Regarding the camel hair, to the best of my knowledge it is pretty uncomfortable but you can always enhance it by neglecting to comb out the burrs.

Don't give up on the honey roasted locusts. When my brother was studying agriculture at university, he came home one day with a recipe book titled "Entertaining with Insects", so there may be a market out there (even if it isn't unsuspecting penitents). Mind you, we never let him enter the kitchen after that for fear of what might end up on the dining table.

In Christ,
John

[Arsenios]

John writes:


I am blessed to be living in Thessaloniki, Greece, which I suspect has the highest density of orthodox churches and monasteries in the world, so I am struggling to learn Modern Greek and hope to one day become competent in Ancient Greek.

Well color me green! How wonderful! I should imagine that you have by now learned to hear Greek, so that you hear the words, and not just the sounds of it... Have you heard the Greeks pronounce the ancient language? Or any who speak it? I know it is read liturgically in services - Does it sound like modern Greek in pronounciation? I have heard that there are enclaves in Greece that pronounce Greek in the old ways - Some Attic, some Doric, etc... Have you ran across any of these?

A few weeks back, Mother Efpraxia, Abbess of St. John the Forerunner Orthodox Women's Monastery, attended a baptism at Holy Cross [my parish] and recited the Symbol and the Lord's Prayer for it in Greek. I could not follow the words... But the sound of her praying these words made it hard for me to keep my feet on the ground! I had never had that happen before...


That particular titbit [locusts = pottage] came from a monk on Mt. Athos and I have since confirmed it via a couple of GOOD Greek dictionaries (there are plenty that omit it).

So we can't really bemoan Liddel and Scott... I mean, I really have never had a chance to eat a locust, but that brown liquid that comes out of the mouths of grass-hoppers, which I imagine are their tastier cousins, was enough to put me in permanent culinary awe of John the Baptist.


I was bemoaning the fact that there are precious few patristic texts that are translated from the Greek into English by Orthodox (eg. most if not all of the early church Fathers are translated from the Latin translation by Catholics or Protestants), and Father Palladio pointed out that the situation was even worse than I thought.

I read somewhere that the west never needs to write another religious text, that there is enough untranslated Greek books to fill our minds for the next couple of centuries, and that all they need is good translations into English.

Wait a minute! - Is THAT what you are up to? You gonna get good enough in Greek to translate some of those texts? Do you know of anyone who is doing any? Are you a U of T student??


Regarding the camel hair

Oh Good!!


to the best of my knowledge it is pretty uncomfortable but you can always enhance it by neglecting to comb out the burrs.

Glad I wasn't sipping coffee reading THAT!


Don't give up on the honey roasted locusts.

I was afraid you might say that...


When my brother was studying agriculture at university, he came home one day with a recipe book titled "Entertaining with Insects"

Isn't that the story of the flea circus? About the young boy who got shrunk by accident and found himself with a bunch of fleas in a side show and was taken in by the barker's nice daughter, and...???


so there may be a market out there (even if it isn't unsuspecting penitents).

I should imagine that anyone who bites into the dead corpse of a locust is by definition a penitent, and that suspicion will shortly follow the first burst of flavor terrorizing his penitent palate!


Mind you, we never let him enter the kitchen after that for fear of what might end up on the dining table.

Good choice! There is a new TV program on in the states called Fear Factor, where contestants do things they are afraid of to win a bunch of money, and each program, they are required to eat something disgusting, or be eliminated, and insects are a common one - often live, often worms and other disgustings... You keep that guy outta MY kitchen too!

I LOVE Greek theological and religious writing - Currently Zizioulas - Though that one is slow going... And I do not know Greek... We need translators...

Should this conversation be on another board? I mean, the topic of eating living worms and grace seem pretty distal...

I wish you utterly well in whatever endeavors you are involved in there in Thessalonika, John. Are you looking at a monastic calling?

Please pray for me...
Arsenios

[Richard Leigh]

Dear John,

I need the references to those "Good Greek dictionaries." Also, was your Athonite monk native to Greece?

Richard

[Richard McBride]

And, Blessed of the Lord John

While you're processing these requests for the font of knowledge, do you have a contact there through whom I could order a wide range of Classical Greek books, to be sent to the US?

richard mcb

[John Wilson]

Dear George,

even if I did have leanings towards monasticism (I would be the very worst of monks) I suspect that my wife and children would object to my being tonsured http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif. I think I have a different, though not necessarily easier, calling.


Dear Richard Leigh,

I'll have to do some digging again as it's been a while since I looked at this. I suspect though, that my criteria for being a "good" dictionary is whether it has the definition I happen to be looking for http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/biggrin.gif.

Father Palladios is Greek, a former chef before wearing the rasso (very important information to know when staying in a skete http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif)


Dear Professor McBride,

The impression I got from our librarian is that the best sources of Classical Greek books are the University publishing houses in Britain and North America, however I will ask a few others involved in Classical Greek for their opinions.

John.