Remembering the departed: Prayers for the dead [Archive]

Fr Raphael Vereshack

03-03-2004, 04:03 AM

Dear John,

Praying for the departed arose as a natural practice within the Church because; 1)we know that the souls of the departed still exist; 2)the souls of the departed only find their life in Christ; 3)because of the love of Christians for each other prayer is a natural aspect of this love and death is not a barrier to this love.

Love cannot exist without prayer just as prayer cannot exist without love. It is the same for the living; prayer is intricately & inseparably tied to our love. And just as our prayer for the living does not preclude that it will be God Who saves, so it is for the departed.

Let me quote a holy Father who recently lived in Romania (1912-1998); the Elder Cleopa: "We know that God asks that we love our fellow man and looks on this love with joy. When we are truly praying for others, there is nothing greater than love. God hears the prayer of the Church very clearly, especially when the prayers of Christians on earth are united with the suppliant voices of angels in the heavens, and that of the Lady Theotokos. The Church carries out incessant intercession for Her members. The angels and apostles, martyrs and patriarchs and most especially our Lady the Theotokos, pray for us all. And this union is the life of the Church. The Saviour Himself assures us that our prayers will not pass unnoticed- above all those that we make from love for our neighbour. He tells us:'Therefore I say unto you, what things soever ye desire when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.'(Mk.11:24) Consequently, prayer for the reposed is not only a sign and strengthening of the love we share between us, but also a proof of our faith. Thus the Saviour says, 'If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth' (Mk.9:23)".

To go back to your first statement John that you yearn to, "believe and confess the gospel once for all proclaimed and 'traditioned' to the apostolic churches." Scripture comes from within the Church and is its Holy Fruit; Scripture is proclaimed BY (and is only comprehended from within) the Church not TO the Church as if Scripture is seperate from or preceeds the Church. It is from within the Tradition of the Church that we understand Scripture; thus for example although we do not read the literally exact words in the Gospels, 'pray for your grandmother', the literal message of the Gospel is exactly that we should pray for our whole family; and so it is for the departed.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Matthew Panchisin

03-03-2004, 01:45 PM

Dear John,

Lazarus Saturday comes to my mind, 21 March / 3 April. Surely, Christ our God heard the 'tears of Mary and Martha'

John:

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Here is some information from the OCA website: The week following the Sunday of St Mary of Egypt is called Palm or Branch Week. At the Tuesday services of this week the Church recalls that Jesus' friend Lazarus has died and that the Lord is going to raise him from the dead (Jn 11). As the days continue toward Saturday, the Church, in its hymns and verses, continues to follow Christ towards Bethany to the tomb of Lazarus. On Friday evening, the eve of the celebration of the Resurrection of Lazarus, the "great and saving forty days" of Great Lent are formally brought to an end:

Having accomplished the forty days for the benefit of our souls, we pray to Thee, O Lover of Man, that we may see the holy week of Thy passion, that in it we may glorify Thy greatness and Thine unspeakable plan of salvation for our sake. ... (Vesper Hymn)
Lazarus Saturday is a paschal celebration. It is the only time in the entire Church Year that the resurrectional service of Sunday is celebrated on another day. At the liturgy of Lazarus Saturday, the Church glorifies Christ as "the Resurrection and the Life" who, by raising Lazarus, has confirmed the universal resurrection of mankind even before his own suffering and death.

By raising Lazarus from the dead before Thy passion, Thou didst confirm the universal resurrection, 0 Christ God! Like the children with the branches of victory, we cry out to Thee, O Vanquisher of Death: Hosanna in the highest! Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord! (Troparion).
Christ --the Joy, the Truth and the Light of All, the Life of the world and its Resurrection -- has appeared in his goodness to those on earth. He has become the Image of our Resurrection, granting divine forgiveness to all (Kontakion).

At the Divine Liturgy of Lazarus Saturday the baptismal verse from Galatians: As many as have been baptizedl into Christ have put on Christ (Gal 3:27) replaces the Thrice-holy Hymn thus indicating the resurrectional character of the celebration, and the fact that Lazarus Saturday was once among the few great baptismal days in the Orthodox Church Year. Because of the resurrection of Lazarus from the dead, Christ was hailed by the masses as the long-expected Messiah-King of Israel. Thus, in fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament, he entered Jenrsalem, the City of the King, riding on the colt of an as s (Zech 9:9; Jn 12:12). The crowds greeted him with brancfies in their hands and called out to him with shouts of praise: Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! The Son of David! The King of Israel! Because of this glorification by the people, the priests and scribes were finally driven "to destroy him, to put him to death" (Lk 19:47; Jn 11:53, 12:10).

You could check in the Monachos.net Resources for Great Lent link http://www.monachos.net/great_lent/index.shtml and find (The great Hymn of St Romanos the Melodist on the raising of Lazarus - one of the most moving reflections upon Christ's gift of new life to His friend and to all the faithful, by tending to the 'tears of Mary and Martha'.)

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Gilbert Gandenberger

04-03-2004, 02:29 AM

I have a few thoughts on this, that I wish to share, but please understand that these are more personal opinion than anything.

1) An underlying presupposition in the conclusion that we have no reason to pray for the dead, is that they have achieved fullness in their walk in Christ, and there is no benefit for our prayers for them. That would not agree with the general Patristic view that man in his very nature was made by God to be mutable, and that this does not end at our death (see eg Life of Moses, Gregory of Nyssa). We believe that people after death will eternally continue to grow to become more like God. One reason to pray for those who have died is that God bless them in this growth in virtue.

2) Another presupposition is that prayers offered today are only efficacious for the present and future. But since God is not bound by time, there is no reason to believe that a prayer offered today cannot be helpful for events that occurred yesterday, a year ago, a century ago.

3) I do not believe the Eastern Orthodox communions would posit prayers for the dead as being a "doctrine" as such. It is more a practice, that is understandable within the context of Eastern Orthodox doctrine. It does not violate doctrine, esp. the core doctrines as confessed in the Nicene creed.

4) Prayers "for" the dead is not all that is going on, we also prayer "to" the dead, in the sense that we ask them to pray for us. This of course is understandable in the sense that we ask one another in the church for their prayers, and since the dead are very much in the church with us, and we with them, this is a natural extension of asking one another for prayers. "Prayer" in this context should be understood in the broader meaning of "beseech", "implore", "request". Prayer in Protestant theology and church understanding usually carries with it that it is "talking to God", and any use of the term outside that meaning is a violation of the semantic load on the word itself.

5) We also pray "with" the dead. We are all members together in the one church, including those who are at rest. We therefor believe that as we participate in the Holy Eucharist we are participating with the holy angels and all the saints that are gathered before the throne of God. My perspective on this is that they are actually being kind enough to allow us join them in the "real" celebration of the Holy Liturgy in the Holy of Holies, as long as we promise to not be disruptive! I see myself while worshipping as being the somewhat naughty two year old in the back of the church whose parents are trying their best not to make a ruckus keeping me quiet & out of trouble! We are seeing thru a glass darkly, they see face to face. The Apostle John's vision of the worship in the heavenlies described in Revelation, and Isaiah's experience in the Temple, is what I am referring to. We have the same experience, just our eyes are blind to the reality we are participating in on Sundays. The really alive Church is those who we think of as "dead"!

6) So the last presupposition in a lot of Protestant thought that I find myself a bit perplexed over is the conception of the dead. Fr. John Kronstadt said it is best to think of the dead in Christ as being in the building with us, just in the next room. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Hope this helps!

Fr Averky

06-03-2004, 02:42 AM

Dear in Christ
Gilbert,

Thank you for your very good post. Since our friend John is a Lutheran, his views would necessarily be different from those of us who are Orthodox, and I pray he has come to a better understnding of the Church which was founded by Christ Himself, and which did not grow out of protesting about the ills and diversions of a body which itself had already broken away from the salvific fold of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church-Holy Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church prays for the salvation of those who have gone on before us in repose. We know that no one will be fully judged until the Second coming of Christ, who will judge both the living and the dead unto eternity. Trusting in God mercy, we ask Him to receive as one of His sheep those for whom we pray. This is done by prayer and the giving of alms, for as it is said in the Book of Tobias ( A Book recognized as canonical by Orthodox and Roman Catholics, later expunged by Protestants ):

"Give alms, out of your wealth, and do not turn your face away from any poor person: for so shall it come to pass that the face of the Lord will not be turned away from you. Be merciful according to your ability. If you have much, then give abundantly; if you have little, be sure to give willing of what little you do have, for in so doing, you will store up for yourself a good reward for the day when you will have need. Alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will keep the soul from going into darkness. Alms shall be a great confidence before the most high God, to all those who give them." Tobias 4: 7-12

Because of this, Orthodox faitfhul offer up their alms of prayer through the Memorial Service, prayers offered by the priest during the Divine Liturgy, and by the giving of alms in the form of gifts such as ecclesiastical items- Gospels, chalices, and so on. In pre-revolutionary Russia, people built entire churches or monasteries in honor of their deceased relatives. Since we believe that we are saved by our Faith, which is shown by good works, we show our faith and belief in the resurrection of the dead to life eternal in Christ by our prayers and giving of alms, for we believe that the giving of alms covers many sins. Filled with confidence, we ask God to show mercy on the souls of our relatives and friends, cleansing their souls in preparation for the coming Judgement of the Saviour of mankind. Dear John, I welcome you to our forum, and I hope to learn from you!

God bless!

With respect,

hieromonk Averky

Trudy Ellmore

08-03-2004, 02:57 PM

This topic continues to confuse me.

It has always been taught to me what is written in 2 Cor 5:8-10 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

It has always been my understanding that when a person of faith dies, they are immediately present with the Lord and that they are immediately made perfect in Christ. Then what else is there to pray for?

Isn't it at the final judgment that the faithful Christian will receive jewels in their crown? But prior to that they are already present and perfected in the Lord? At least this is another thing I've been taught.

My summer reading list is growing by leaps and bounds. Thanks to all posters for all their good suggestions.

Pray for me a sinner.

~Trudy~

Fr Raphael Vereshack

08-03-2004, 10:46 PM

Dear Trudy,

Yes there is a judgement after we die but this is not the Final Judgement. Until the Final Judgement when Christ returns in all of His glory all things await their restoration and deliverance from the force of sin & death. After our death we will be in a state relative to our behaviour while here but this will not be the final state that awaits us and for which 'creation groans.' In fact after death we can change according to whether we desired the things of God while here or not; that is why we can go from 'glory to glory' after death, why we commemorate the departed at Liturgies and at Memorial services. Also it works in reverse order: the departed are aware (even more so than us)of the brokeness of creation that still remains and so they also intercede for us (notice how the last phrase of almost all stichera-verses at Vespers about saints is "intercede for us..."). Yes even after death the departed also like us await the final restoration of all things for they are also aware of the brokenness of creation and pray for its restoration. So maybe this is the best answer to your question: in Christ we are all united living & departed and we pray for each other.

In Christ- Fr R

Daniel Jeandet

10-03-2004, 03:57 PM

A serbian man died and was buried not far from where I live. On his gravestone it just says his name and then:

PRAY FOR ME

Arsenios

11-03-2004, 04:56 PM

Daniel wrote:

"A serbian man died and was buried not far from where I live. On his gravestone it just says his name and then:

PRAY FOR ME"

Please give us this Serb's name, that we should pray for him...

Arsenios

Daniel Jeandet

12-03-2004, 06:24 PM

Im sorry, I dont have his name. I will try to get it, then you can pray for him.

Trudy, you wrote - "It has always been my understanding that when a person of faith dies, they are immediately present with the Lord and that they are immediately made perfect in Christ. Then what else is there to pray for?".

I hope this isnt bad of me to ask this but here goes - What if the person doesnt want to be made perfect? Or only sometimes wanted to be perfect and other times wanted to be imperfect or only appear to be perfect? Maybe that is why we pray for them.

Trudy Ellmore

13-03-2004, 01:01 PM

Dear Daniel J:

The question you pose confuses me and doesn't make any sense. How can the person not want to be made perfect if they, by faith, love the Lord and recognize Him as their Savior? By virtue of that faith and their prayers, they've repented of their sins and upon death are present with the Lord. No? How can they want (underscore _want_) to remain imperfect?

Couldn't your question be true of us all then? Perhaps that is your purpose in posing it? In a conversation with a friend the other day, he said that when we sin it disproves our love for God. So are you saying the same thing Daniel? By our actions and sin, we are making the choice to be imperfect? If that is the case, how then can someone elses prayers make us perfect? Only God can make us perfect by His forgiveness and mercy. And especially after we've passed from this world.

I'm sorry I continue to pick at this issue. Now I am even more confused than before. So is it that, perfection in Christ is not available at all? Doesn't that perfection come only from God and not of anything we do?

Thank you all, for your continued patience with me and my ignorant questions. Please forgive me if I offend anyone with them. May God in His mercy grant me understanding and have the knowledge fall from my thick head to my stubborn heart.

In Christ, Trudy (sinner)

Trudy Ellmore

14-03-2004, 03:26 AM

Dear Fr. Raphael & Daniel J. (and all):

During coffee hour after Liturgy, I had a chance to speak to my priest about why we pray for the dead. I asked him the same question I posed here, "That when a person of faith dies, they are immediately present with the Lord and that they are immediately made perfect in Christ. Then what else is there to pray for?" I also was able to say that in Protestantism it was always my understanding that when a person dies and goes to heaven, they know all there is to know about God, that He completely reveals Himself to the person. (I realized in talking to Father today, that I had been asking the wrong question here on Monachos.)

Father asked me, "If God is infinite, then how can one know all there is to know about Him? That would be putting limits on God. Then He would not be God." Aha!!! Now it makes sense to me! Father went on to explain that we pray for those who have reposed, that they will continue to grow in grace...to continue to learn about God, because God is infinite. We will never learn or know Him completely, even after death. Aha..again!

Unfortunately, we didn't get to finish the conversation as he had others to visit. But I just wanted to let you know what God taught me through this wise priest. God has truly blessed me with him as a spiritual father.

Please continue to pray for me, a sinner, as my struggle and journey continues. And if anyone has more to add to what Father started explaining today, I would be most grateful to hear it.

Sincerely in Christ,
Trudy

Daniel Jeandet

14-03-2004, 04:06 PM

No Trudy, please do not be sorry for what you posted. I also am confused, and I want to continue discussing this because I want to understand as much as I can and the more I contemplate this question the more interesting it becomes.

I didnt ask the question to refute anything you said, after I posted it I realised I didnt get it at all and my mind really locked up trying to think about it.

I remember a saint saying, when we feel real sorrow for another person whose soul we pray for, our hearts bleed inside. I cant remember exactly what the saints words were or who said it. It made me think about how Christ suffered for us. If we truly suffer for others, when we sacrifice our own will, our comfort, the peace of our soul, to pray for the living and the dead, maybe we share in this work of Christ. Through us, but by His grace, He does for the dead what they cannot or did not, or didnt know they could do while alive. For the living, we pray that they would begin this work, or that God would strengthen them in it, or that he would give us the grace to help them in other ways. Praying for others is as important for us as it is for those we pray for.

I believe we can pray a soul out of the torments of hell because it has been done by the saints and is recorded in thier lives, for that reason and I believe in it but mostly I believe in it because if God is what we believe Him to be, and the Church is His body, then when the Church prays for the dead we must accept that The Holy Spirit who guides the Church is behind it and not just a logical arguement or pagan ritualism. (not that I think anyone around here thinks that, Im just trying to think of another reason why we would pray for the dead other than that it is a practice instituted by the Holy Spirit through the saints and that God will listen to our prayers)

Melissa

14-03-2004, 06:59 PM

Dear Trudy,

I have been taught that when we sin, we prove how sinful we are, not that we don't love God. However, if we aren't committed to confession, asking for forgiveness, and repentance (in the sense of metanoia, which I understand means, loosely translated, 'change of heart'), then, perhaps we are showing we don't really love God, because we have no intention of trying to grow in faith. "Many are called..." and then the path gets narrow and it's easy to say it's just too hard...or to despair.

We love God as we are able, and the more obedient we are to His Word, the more we are able to love Him. We see more clearly His love and mercy, and sorrow more deeply when we fail Him by our sinfulness.

Only God can make us perfect, and yet the prayers of the faithful - both reposed and alive in this earthly existence - do matter. This is what I've been taught, and even though I don't pretend to understand it well, I follow it to the best of my ability.

Trudy, just let your priest guide you, go to him with your questions, and of course take your questions to God in your prayers. If you let yourself live into the faith, not trying for all the answers at once, they will begin to fall into place; this I trust God will happen for you. I don't know if this is how it is with you, but I've discovered that when I get confused, it's often because I'm trying for too much too soon, or am collecting too many ideas. So please don't be distracted from your own path, because we're each at a bit of a different place.

I am quick to give suggestions that I can just barely even begin to fulfill myself, so please pray for me that I do these things, also.

In Christ's love,
Melissa

Gilbert Gandenberger

15-03-2004, 04:29 AM

Dear Trudy, I think there are two issues that can get intertwined when speaking about perfection in Christ, that may be underlying your sense of confusion.

First, there is the sense of perfection as sinlessness. Adam & Eve had this prior to the Fall, in the sense that they had never sinned nor experienced any form of "falling short of the glory of God". We have this innocence restored to us (in a sense) in our baptism, and renewed in the Eucharist and other experiences of the grace of God, in the sense that we are cleansed from the stain of our sins. This is completed, as I understand it, as we breathe our last breath, and enter into the joy of our Lord's Kingdom. To use an ancient illustration, sin is like an apple with a bruise.

The second meaning of perfection is that we reach full maturity in Christ. Adam & Eve did not have this in the Garden, but were intended by God to grow up into this. He has continued to will this for us all, including Adam & Eve, and provides this growth in virtue day by day, as we move from glory to glory. In this respect we will never complete the growth in glory. This, I believe, is what your priest was referring to. Again, to continue an ancient illustration, this type of perfection is similar to an immature green apple ripening into a beautiful delicious red apple.

St. Gregory of Nyssa in his Life of Moses explains that humans are by nature finite, and will ever be so; God is of course infinite by nature. We as humans are made to be mutable in our very nature, and so we can approach the infinite, but never attain it. God is love, and we can grow in love, but never equal God in His love.

We can as humans become more like God as He shares His energies with us, but we will always be limited by our finitude. I find this view of perfection is very exciting when you think of the joy you experience as you see spiritual growth in yourself & your brothers & sisters in the Lord, and realize that we can eternally enjoy this growth together. Makes Heaven to me seem much more real than if it were a static state of existence.

Hope that helps!

M A Jackson-Roberts

15-03-2004, 11:24 AM

Regarding the theme of praying for the dead, could I please ask your prayers for Cardinal Franz Konig of Vienna, with whom I was acquainted, and who died on Saturday March 13th, aged 98 years? He was a bridge to several other faith traditions, most notably Orthodoxy, and was a very fine human being.

your seeker

Arsenios

15-03-2004, 05:08 PM

Melissa advised:

Trudy, just let your priest guide you, go to him with your questions, and of course take your questions to God in your prayers. If you let yourself live into the faith, not trying for all the answers at once, they will begin to fall into place; this I trust God will happen for you."

That's pretty good advice... Especially the "If you let yourself live into the faith, not trying for all the answers at once..." part...

Orthodoxy is not wome magical and mysterious agglomeration of systematic theology that must be all sorted out before one can "be saved" [etc. ad naseum] In fact, in very systematic terms, it can be stated with remarkable accurracy that Orthodoxy is much more anecdotal than systematic, and that many of the greatest saints were anything but well versed in having been taught answers to all imaginable [and hence 'systematic'] questions...

Each of us will have a particular worldly personna that we bring to the cross in Orthodoxy, and the concerns of this personna will present themselves with urgency as time goes by and one's life in Christ develops in discipleship. The blessing of Christ's Church is this discipleship in which issues can come forth under the healing aegis of the cross and under the supervision of those who have themselves developed under this aegis, as did the apostles, discipled by Christ Himself, and those whom they in turn discipled, right on down to those elders in your parish who are veterans of their own domestic wars, and know the exercise of no small amount of generalship therein...

But they are so careful to remain in humility that you can end up not 'getting' their message in your desire for a more forceful presentation - We are so used to preachers yelling at us, and threatening and cajoling, and telling us what things mean... And we come to Orthodoxy and think that we are now going to get all our doubting questions answered that we generated in our being preached at by others...

Yet all we need to do, as Melissa so simply and elegantly put forth, is to live our way into the faith... The questions that are pressing will come forth to the top in the course of discipleship, and they will not usually be all that theoretical, but will normally be very practical and urgent, and bringing them to your priest will ofter result in a 'suggestion' for action... Take it as a command from Christ Himself, thundering forth from the clouds with rain, hail and lightnings! And DO it... And set the matter from your mind and its dubious reasonings...

In this case, just pray for the dead, and especially the ones you have known, and if God has a problem with you for what you are doing, that will then at least have a platform in the arena of action, the action of discipleship, eg the doing of the prayers for the dead, from which to make the correction... This is the vital and living [and should I say hard?] core of the faith, and not in wondering about what the arguments may or may not be... Or who said what and when, and what therefore should I think, and then maybe do... And all that blah-blah... Wishy-washy wondering won't work, because it is grounded in lack of faith... By its very nature...

Not that I am accusing you of wishy-washy, but unless there is a pressing need, there are just too many possible distractive questions that can so easily keep us side-tracked from the discipleship we so consistently need to practice...

At least that is my tuppence, not adjusted for inflation... [of ego!]

And please forgive me my shortcomings in this post, which are many and grievous...

Arsenios

Fr Raphael Vereshack

15-03-2004, 06:07 PM

The Church teaches that we can no longer repent after death, we (I at least) die sinful, the Church prays for us. I could never resolve this until I read in Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos that we will grow in glory after death according to what we desired when here. So yes it is according to how we pursued our life in Christ here; and somehow this also addresses the question of those who die outside the Faith: it depends on what they want (or reject). The last terrible part of this is woe to us who are indifferent about Christ and His Truth.
Fr R

Trudy Ellmore

16-03-2004, 04:08 AM

Thank you each and every one for your answers. The length and breadth of each, and obvious time and love that went into each explanation is deeply appreciated. And has been very helpful.

Long ago did I realize all the questions would not be answered before deciding whether to enter Orthodoxy or not. It is clear that Orthodoxy is a way of life, not just another 'denomination', that it is so much more...the fullness of the Truth. And that takes a lifetime to inhale and exhale, to learn and live.

Journeying on....step by step...breath by breath,
Trudy (sinner)

Michelle Mosca

21-09-2005, 07:40 PM

According to the Orthodox church we don't go straight to heaven or Hell until the second coming of Christ when all dead and alive will be judged at the same time, right? So does that mean that while we are waiting, you can still have time to accept Christ? Or do you have to do that while in your Physical Body? In otherwords, can you only reach for salvation while alive?

Leandros Papadopoulos

21-09-2005, 10:52 PM

According to the Orthodox church we don't go straight to heaven or Hell until the second coming of Christ when all dead and alive will be judged at the same time, right?

Dear Friends,

The Orthodox answer to the above question is "NO, that is not right."

Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos, in his book "LIFE AFTER DEATH" (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.00.htm) presents the answer of the Orthodox Fathers:

What is said about the judgement of the people which will follow the coming of Christ is "difficult to explain”because, according to St. Symeon the New Theologian, it is not about events present and visible, but about future and invisible ones. Hence the need for much prayer, much zeal, much purity of spirit on the part of those who speak and those who hear. This is essential so that the speakers may know well and the hearers may be able to listen intelligently2.

This message from St. Symeon the New Theologian - whom we shall recall later as well when we refer to the judgement to be established at the coming of Christ - is of considerable interest, because it is the object of many errors. There are people who speak about the eschatological events quite anthropocentrically, in many ways falsifying the passages in Scripture and the Fathers, thus leading people into errors and discouragement. Likewise there are others who understand the words of Scripture and the Fathers according to their conceptions. Hence the need for spiritual prudence and much discrimination in order that the message may be understood and lead to repentance. For what leads to psychological fear and human despair is not orthodox. By contrast, what is genuine and orthodox leads man, through spiritual fear, to hope in God, to repentance and prayer.

Second. St. Symeon the New Theologian says that the day of Christ's coming is called the day of the Lord not because it is the last of the earthly days nor because Christ is expected to come on that day, nor yet because men will be judged on that day, "but because the very God and Lord of the universe will shine at this time in the glory of His godhead". And again this day is called the day of the Lord because of the shining of the light of the godhead and not because of a simple appearing. Just as during the day all the stars are extinguished by the light of the sun, the same also will happen on that day. All visible things will give way and make room for the Maker of heaven and earth. And he who now is invisible to all eyes will then uniquely be both "day and God". And thus for the saints it will be a day of eternal joy. For the sinners who have not seen this light in their life through being purified, Christ will be inaccessible in the future3.

Third. In Holy Scripture, when it speaks of the coming of Christ, lightning, clouds, trumpets, thrones and other images are mentioned. St. Gregory Palamas says that the message of the Second Coming of Christ is condescending. All these happenings indeed are beyond the human nous, human reason and sense. Christ knows precisely all the things that are to happen, but "He descends to the level of the capacity of those being taught". Human nature is accustomed to these human and sensible facts, and so it can understand eschatological events in this way. This is why Christ by condescension uses such images and representations.

There will indeed be a judgement, there will be rejoicing of the righteous and pain of the sinners, there will be Hell and Paradise, but these are not things of the senses, since we know very well from the patristic tradition that it is not a question of created things. Yet even the fire of Hell is not created and sensory, but uncreated. The reader must be patient until he studies the relevant chapter of this book entitled "Paradise and Hell", in order to be convinced of how all these things are understood.

Thus we should not stop at the sensory examples and lose the essence of what is said. Nor indeed should we simply look at the essence of these things, scorning the examples. For since Christ used them, we should keep them and explain their deeper meaning, leading people to repentance and not to fearlessness.

Fourth. The Second Coming of Christ is compared with His coming. When we speak of the First Coming, we mean Christ's becoming man and when we speak of the Second Coming, we mean the coming of Christ to judge men. There is a clear difference between the First and the Second Coming.

St. Gregory Palamas presents the difference between these two Comings. He says that at the first Coming the glory of His divinity was hidden beneath the flesh, which he assumed from us and for our salvation. And still now the glory of His divinity is hidden in the Father with His flesh that is identically God. But then at His Second Coming "His whole glory will be revealed". Then there will appear a brightness shining round the ends of the world with the rays of His divinity. And interpreting Christ's words "when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him", he says that at His first coming He brought the angels and was surrounded by the angelic ranks, but invisibly, and He restrained their zeal against the heretics. But at the Second Coming He will come openly with His angels, in all His glory and majesty.

Fifth. In the works of St. Symeon the New Theologian we can find another truth also in relation to the Second Coming of Christ, and likewise in relation to the judgement of men. St. Symeon makes an extensive analysis, saying that the Second Coming of Christ and the judgement to come will be chiefly for the sinners, who are living in passions and sin, but not for the saints, who are already experiencing the Paradise of Christ. As many as are children of that light and are sons of the coming day, "on them the day of the Lord will never come". To be sure, Christ will come to judge men, but these have been judged in this life and the tribunal will not follow. The presence of Christ will be a promise of joy and delight. When the Christian in fear and trembling keeps the commandments of Christ and lives in repentance, he becomes united with that light, and so in reality in this life he passes through the judgement. He who is deified is baptised by the divine fire and the Holy Spirit "and becomes all pure, all undefiled, a son of light and day, and no longer of mortal man".

I shall quote an astonishing passage from St. Symeon the New Theologian, because I cannot leave it behind without comment, but also it is not possible to say it in my own words. "Such a man is not judged by the judgement and justice to come, for he has been judged beforehand, and he is not censured by that light, for he has been enlightened beforehand, nor is he tested or burned on entering that fire, for he has been tested beforehand, it is not then, in his opinion, that the day of the Lord appears, for it has became altogether one bright and shining day, thanks to the conversation and company of God.

What St. Symeon says is astonishing. I would like to comment on the fact that the judgement takes place essentially in this life. The person who sees the light is baptised with the Holy Spirit and does not take into account the day of the Lord, because by his association with God he is wholly a bright and shining day. We must note the word `association', which refers to the man's communion with God. Actually, since the man is wholly bright and shining day, since he is wholly light, he cannot distinguish the coming of day. This day is his own existential fact.

So in this way the Second Coming will appear mainly to the sinners, who have lived with passions during their present life and not kept the commandments of God. For the saints it is a natural state, which they are experiencing now. Certainly the saints are awaiting the Second Coming of Christ, in order that their bodies which are now living in corruption may also rise again, so that the whole man may taste the rich gifts of the great day and of the appearance in glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore the Second Coming of Christ is an indisputable fact, since it is witnessed by the apocalyptical word of God, by the assurance of the Apostles and by the experiences of the saints, who are already living the Kingdom of God.</font>

The second and third paragraph of the Fifth point, is a direct answer to your question.

So does that mean that while we are waiting, you can still have time to accept Christ? Or do you have to do that while in your Physical Body? In otherwords, can you only reach for salvation while alive?

The Orthodox answer to the above question is: "YES, that is right, humans can only reach for salvation while alive". The answer is not that simple, but I think that this simple answer is the most appropriate straightforward answer, for such a straightforward question.

May God bless us, all.

Michelle Mosca

21-09-2005, 11:35 PM

Wait, i don't understand why you said we don't go straight to heaven or hell... I specifically had a conversation with my priest about this because what was being said at my Bible study went against what was said in a book explaining the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. It was explaining why there isn't purgatory, but it said that no one can inherit the Kingdom of God, heaven, until our bodies rise to be judged, which comes with Judgement day. My priest said that all who have passed are in the same place waiting for that judgement, but are experiencing "tastes" of heaven and "tastes" of hell, whichever they are to go to. Put aside the debate of what hell actually is for this.

M.C. Steenberg

21-09-2005, 11:37 PM

Dear Leandros,

It is important to be careful with interpreting the passages you quoted. The admission of judgement in the present life, of the mystical reality of truly immanent, present judgement, does not negate the full and equally-'present' reality of a final judgement at the eschaton, the 'end of time' and fulfilment of the kingdom. As for the question, 'According to the Orthodox church we don't go straight to heaven or Hell until the second coming of Christ when all dead and alive will be judged at the same time, right?, there is a long, long patristic and liturgical tradition of responding precisely, 'Yes, this is right'.

INXC, Matthew

Baroness

22-09-2005, 04:17 AM

To help answer your questions, we really need to "accept Christ" and live as Christians while here on earth - because once we die, it's too late. Everything, our judgement etc., all depends on how we have lived for God, served and loved Him in this life.

I also think, we pray for the dead, that their journey - once their souls leave their body - may not be too difficult to wherever they're going, and that God may have mercy on their souls.

I thought when we die we have a personal judgement (ie. toll houses teaching), then we'll either go to heaven or hell to wait until the 2nd Coming of Christ. Once Christ returns, our souls will be joined with our bodies, we will be resurrected and transformed, and that's when we - everyone / everything - will face final judgement. Upon that final judgement we then are given a place in heaven or hell for eternity.

Here's an interesting article about this subject:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/life_after_death.htm

Read also for interest the other post on this site, below yours titled “Death and the After-Life”.

Please forgive and correct me if I my information isn't right.

Leandros Papadopoulos

22-09-2005, 04:20 AM

Forum friends,

Let us resolve a misunderstanding. The original question asked by Michelle Mosca was: “According to the Orthodox church we don't go straight to heaven or Hell until the second coming of Christ when all dead and alive will be judged at the same time, right?”, which has three clauses:

According to the Orthodox church we don't go straight to heaven or Hell
until the second coming of Christ
when all dead and alive will be judged at the same time
These three propositions when they are combined in one question, according to this specific syntax, it is very difficult to be answered in an affirmative way. Actually the problem is in one word: the word “until”. Let’s examine how one single word can make such a difference.

(Luke 23:43) : “And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

In the above passage Christ said to one of the two criminals that were crucified with Him: “today you shall be with Me in Paradise”. So, If we were to accept that “we don't go straight to heaven or Hell until the second coming of Christ when all dead and alive will be judged at the same time”, then Christ should have said “you shall be with Me in Paradise” without the designation of “today”. But Christ said “today” and He meant it. The criminal was judged and was promised Paradise for that same day, at the moment of his death, by Christ Himself. Actually Christ defined the time as “today”. The Greek word that Luke uses in the respective passage is the word “shmeron” which means “today”, during this day, during this day before the coming of the night. And actually the criminal and Christ were both dead before that same evening on the day that they were crucified and then Christ kept his promise before sunrise, as He accepted the criminal in Paradise.

So, as Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos writes in his book: “So in this way the Second Coming will appear mainly to the sinners, who have lived with passions during their present life and not kept the commandments of God. For the saints it is a natural state, which they are experiencing now. Certainly the saints are awaiting the Second Coming of Christ, in order that their bodies which are now living in corruption may also rise again, so that the whole man may taste the rich gifts of the great day and of the appearance in glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Let me present some instances from the Orthodox Worship:

September 14, At the Matins, After the 1st Stichologia, the Cathisma -Tone a
“We submit to the tree of Your Holy Cross, benevolent Christ, because in It You were hanged upon, being the Life of everyone. Saviour as You opened Paradise for the thief, who came in faith to You and he was granted blessedness by confessing “Lord, remember me”, likewise accept everyone according to Your Mercy, as You did accept him, as we cry “we have sin, do not overlook us”.

HOLY AND GREAT THURSDAY, HOURS AND TYPIKA, NINTH HOUR
Prayer of Saint Basil the Great

Master, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, who have long endured our transgressions, and brought us to this hour in which hanging on the life-giving tree you showed the good Thief the way into Paradise and destroyed death by death, have mercy also on us sinners and your unworthy servants. For we have sinned and trespassed and are not worthy to raise our eyes and look on the height of heaven; because we have abandoned the way of your justice and walked in the will of our hearts. But we implore your unbounded goodness: spare us, O Lord, according to the multitude of your mercy, and save us for your holy name’s sake, for our days have been wasted in vanity. Rescue us from the hand of our opponent, forgive us our sins, slay our carnal will, that we, having put off the old man, may put on the new, and live for you, our Master and benefactor; and that thus following your precepts we may reach eternal rest, where those who rejoice have their dwelling. For you are the true joy and gladness of those who love you, Christ our God, and to you we give glory, together with your Father who has no beginning, and your all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and always and to ages of ages. Amen.

ON HOLY AND GREAT FRIDAY, AT MATINS, after the THIRD GOSPEL,
Antiphon 14. Tone 8

Lord, you took the Thief, whose hands were defiled with blood, as a companion for the journey. Number us too with him, as you are good and love humankind.

Same Tone
The Thief on the cross uttered few words, but found great faith. He was saved in one instant, and having opened the gates of Paradise was the first to enter. Lord, who accepted his repentance, glory to you!

After the SIXTH GOSPEL,
Beatitudes with 8 [10] verses, in Tone 4

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Through a tree Adam became an exile from Paradise; but through the tree of the Cross the Thief made Paradise his home: for the former through tasting set aside his Maker’s commandment, while the latter, crucified with him, confessed the hidden God, as he cried, ‘Remember me in your kingdom’.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after justice, for they shall be filled.

The lawless bought the Maker of the Law from a disciple, and as a lawbreaker stood him before Pilate’s judgement seat, crying, ‘Crucify’ the one who gave them manna in the desert. While we, imitating the just Thief, cry with faith, ‘Remember us also, O Saviour, in your kingdom’.

The Exapostilarion sung slowly and solemnly:
Tone 3

O Lord, who on that very day made the Thief worthy of Paradise, so by the tree of the Cross enlighten and save me.

It becomes evident that according to the Orthodox Church we DO “go” straight to heaven or hell, BEFORE the second coming of Christ, when all dead (after being resurrected) and alive impenitents will be judged at the same time when those who died in repentance will be resurrected and with the alive who are in repentance both will continue to ask for the Mercy of God and will glorify Him For His Goodness. So, as in this world there are those who repent and ask for the Mercy of God and those who do not repent and they do not ask for the mercy of God, likewise at the second coming of Christ,the same persons, resurrected and alive, will retain their personal attitude regarding God. Life is a continuum.

Of course,as we repented for our sins before our baptism and changed in our baptism, but we remained the same persons although we were born again and our after baptism life is the continuity of our pre-baptism life, likewise the NEW life after the second coming of Christ is the continuity of our previous life. What remains in continuity -being or missing- from our life is our relation with the Father, through Christ in Spirit.

The second coming of Christ will bring the restoration of our fallen nature, but it will preserve intact each person. A impenitent person as well as a person in repentance both will be given immortal and imperishable and incorrupt natures. Both the impenitent and the repent person will be given the freedom to "change", to reverse their attitudes, but because the new World after the second coming of Christ will provide to humans full restoration of their nature, the continuity of their personalities will remain unchanged for ever, not because they will not be able to change but because they will be themselves. Today we live in a world of changes and we are in constant "search" of our self. Actually this search is a search for our perfection regardless of our subjective understanding of "perfection". After the second coming of Christ the "perfection" will be offered to everyone as perfect natural restoration and as participation to the Uncreated life of God. So we will reach the end of our personal "journey" towards perfection. Then, why the impenitents persons would not chance their hearts and repent at this stage? For two reasons, first because they would have nothing more to earn regarding their natural condition (they would have immortality and perfection for free, like everyone else) and second for the same reason that the devil does not repent: pride/arrogance. They would think: "being myself immortal and in perfect human nature what is the difference between me and God?" and they would answer:"None". And God will provide the same Goods both for the "just" as well as for the "unjust" - just like He does the same here on Earth for both.

The final judgement is indeed both "final" and "judgement" but it will not interrupt the continuity of "being", it will provide to us the reality of Uncreated Life of Trinity and because this reality is not a "stage of being" but a relation with the Father, through Christ, in Spirit, it is needed for human beings to acquire a personhood/uypostasis with which to participate in The Relation. Just like the criminal/thief did and entered Paradise (Paradise is the name of this Uncreated Relation) in the same day he died with Christ. And as the Orthodox Church chants in her hymns: "He was saved in one instant, and having opened the gates of Paradise was the first to enter. Lord, who accepted his repentance, glory to you!".

May God bless us, all.

Michelle Mosca

22-09-2005, 04:35 AM

Fr Raphael Vereshack

22-09-2005, 04:09 PM

Just as you would reach out a helping hand to another and this in no way denies the grace of Christ- so we also pray in love for those who are departed. This reflects an essential part of God's providence as revealed especially through Christ's Incarnation that God works through others or other events. Conversely it is by avoiding this way in which God works that we deny ourselves His grace. For 'obtaining grace' (a very modernistic notion if there ever was one!) is not a matter of getting something- rather it is a matter of finding Life through a renewal of our lives in Christ.

Of course it is valid to point out that this is accomplished by the active aquiescence of our free will & not against our will. If someone had an active resistance or indifference to the things of God when alive then our prayers may be of no help or at times even blasphemous. So prayer for the departed is offered so that souls who already desired at least in some even hidden sense the things of God may begin to attain the resurrection of their will even now. In this sense prayer for the departed is the grace of Christ offered to the souls of the departed through us so that they may begin to attain their resurrection even now before the final & Second Coming.

This brings up the point that we often incorrectly speak as if the departed no longer have will. Since the soul of the departed refers to the soul of the departed person (the person once created will always remain) then they also have will since it is absurd to refer to a person without will. If anything the souls of the departed may aquire more of a will directed towards the things of God. And this is accomplished through the efforts of the Body of Christ- the Church- actively accomplishing its own resurrection. It is always in this context that prayer operates and this is what prayer actually is.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Kosmas Damianides

22-09-2005, 04:35 PM

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the one hand, it's good and important to know our Orthodox faith, but on the other hand I think we should not worry too much about what will happen after we die. We should concentrate and worry more about our sins and how we have offended God since this leads us to repentance.

If we go to heaven or hell straight away or have to wait is not very important. In fact we don't realy know for sure what exactly happens after we die except that, (as God reveals to us), there is a hell and there is a heaven.

I read somwhere that a Saint would still try to be a devout Christian and do their best even after knowing (hypothetically speaking) that heaven was filled up and that there was no place left for him there.

It's a very frightening thought...Nevertheless, I think that the most important thing that should concern us as Christians is not to seek to know where we are going to end up, but moreover to seek daily to know and do the will of God.

Peace to you all and lots of Love.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Kosmas

Patrick Walsh

22-09-2005, 04:57 PM

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

First of all, we must correctly define what is life and what is death from an eschatological point of view.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Adam lived at least 900 years after the fall, so what did God mean by "on the day...thereof thou shalt surely die." What Adam suffered on that very day was separation from God. He was cast out of Paradise that very day, and no longer communed with God.

John 3:2-5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Christ came to restore the possibility that Man could commune with God once again. He established conditions whereof that we regain communion with God, the substance of eternal life. I say "substance of eternal life" because as yet we do not have eternal life. We are still mired in sin, and each time we sin, we damage that substance. Through confession and repentance, and throught the sacrament of Holy Communion, we regenerate that substance and allow it to grow within us.

Hopefully, with a better idea of the eschatological understanding of life and death, we can proceed more clearly to answer your concerns.

1. Can we strive for salvation after our repose?

The answer to that is no. We must learn to love God with all our body, mind and spirit. When we are in repose, our bodies are not able to engage in worship or learning to love God. So it is important to strive always, thanking God each morning for a new day, a new opportunity to strive for salvation.

2. Can we pray for the dead.

The answer to this is no. We cannot pray for the dead, but we need to keep the eschatological meaning in mind when we consider this. We cannot pray for the salvation of those who are not baptized in the Holy Orthodox Church, since they are separated from God. We can pray only for their conversion to the Orthodox Church, and that only while the opportunity for them to begin to struggle in their body is still present. This is the instruction of the Optina Elders, and they have created a special prayer for just this purpose.

3. Can we pray for the reposed, that is, those in the church who have "fallen asleep?"

The answer is yes. Just as we ask the Theotokos to pray for us, to take our petitions to her Son on our behalf, we can pray for the reposed. None of us are perfect, but we can ask that God show them mercy on the day of judgement for the sins that remained on their souls when they reposed.

I pray that my words are clear and free from error.

Patrick

M.C. Steenberg

22-09-2005, 05:48 PM

Dear all,

It is extremely dangerous to speak too emphatically about a universal application to specific remarks about death and the afterlife given by specific fathers or others in this life. The tendency to globalise spiritual counsel is always a risk.

The Church's teaching is that all will stand before the tribunal at the last judgement, which will come at the eschaton, the fulfilment of time and the present cosmic economy. That means everyone, including all the saints. The question that drives St Symeon's remarks, of which we've had some posted above, is what 'judgement' means in the context of different types of people: those who are repentant faithful, the unrepentant, the saints, etc. All shall stand at the tribunal before the great judge, all shall be judged; but the eschatological judgement of the Lord will, for one who has struggled ascetically to make that judgement immanent in the present life, be no new phenomenon. The judgement of eternity is met in the ascetic life -- the final judgement is brought into the heart in the here and now. This emphatically does not mean that such saints do not stand before the tribunal, or are not judged there: but that final judgement reveals little or nothing new, since the judgement was already lived.

The witness of the Church is also clear that there is an intermittent period between personal death and the final resurrection. About it we know relatively little -- the witness of important saints and glimpses in the scriptures -- but a few things are clear. Firstly, that it is not the fulness of heaven or hell into which man enters on death. Heaven and hell in their fulness are eschatological realities that begin with the final judgement. Secondly, despite the fact that it is not the fulness of heaven or hell that is experienced immediately after death, nonetheless the experience of what is sometimes called the 'middle period' is directly related to one's sojourn in this life. Thus we have the gospel witness of the rich man and poor Lazarus, the one suffering and the one in blessedness based on their manner of life. Thirdly, the Church also teaches that the personal freedom to ammend/change one's life and state does not exist in this period, and this for anthropological reasons indicated by Patrick above: namely that we are not fully our complete selves, but our souls are separated from our bodies. The person is body and soul -- a 'disembodied soul' is not the free person who chooses to repent, who resists temptation. Our freedom is hindered by this strange mystery of deathly separation. This is why, fourthly, the Church so strictly enjoins that we must pray for the departed, precisely because they are no longer fully capable of the choices and movements possible in this earthly life, and rely on the mercy of God and the prayers of his people.

INXC, Matthew

Leandros Papadopoulos

22-09-2005, 08:25 PM

so then praying for the dead is kind of pointless. i never really saw why people do that, just to make themselves feel better, their ignorance? doesn't it say someone in the Bible about not crying for those brothers and sisters who have passed? not to dwell because we know that they are at peace with the Lord?

Dear Sister Michelle Mosca,

I think you refer to (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) :

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

St Paul is saying here to the Church of Thessaloniki to have hope and faith in the future resurrection "lest you sorrow as others who have no hope". He does not say not to sorrow at all, but not to sorrow as others who have no hope. Our hope and faith in Christ, does not destroy our human sorrow for the departure of the fallen asleep, but it saves us from despair. In The Creed we say in the end: "...I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sin. I look for the Resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

As Orthodox Christians we are "looking for" the Ressurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, but at the same time we pray for ourselves and for the whole world. But, our salvation is not an absolute “event”, because we have the ability to hide our true self even from our own eyes. Only in the uncreated Light of Christ, after His second coming we will acknowledge/see the Truth about our genuine relation with Him. According to the passage of Judgement, (Matthew 25:31-46) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&version=50;), when the Son of Man will come in His glory a very peculiar thing will happen: When the Son of Man will present the mercy of the “righteous” and the cruelty of the “cursed” against Him they will both present their ignorance of their True relation with Him. Both, they will reply to Him: “when did we do these things to You?” This is something that Church teaches to Her members: only God knows us, who we are for real. And from Him we expect to know us. So, we look for our common Resurrection in humbleness and in faith and hope for His Mercy.

In your message, sister Michelle Mosca, you wrote: “then praying for the dead is kind of pointless, i never really saw why people do that, just to make themselves feel better, their ignorance?”. Well, St Paul in (Romans 10:1) is also praying from his heart:"Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.". This is the most welcomed prayer by God. The prayer is not a duty, or a methodology in practise, it is the expression of the heart. St Paul is praying for his fellow co-patriots, for whom he cares and love so much!

Does love end in death? Does personal and loving and honest relation end in death? No! Without a living love for the dead person the prayer for him/her remains a mystery. Asking “why to pray” for a dead person is like asking “why to love” a dead person, but such a question does not have an answer because love is a relation and likewise prayer is also a relation. Love and prayer do not serve a purpose; they “materialize” a relation between persons. If the relation exists, so love and prayer exist also. They both come from within the heart.

Sister Michelle Mosca, your question is substantially a question about “what prayer is” and not a question about “prayer for dead”.

The saints of the Church, being glorified by the Holy Spirit and having in their hearts the burning Love of Christ, they pray to God for every human being, dead or alive, for every other creature on earth (animals, trees, nature)and for the whole universe and even for devil. This prayer is the fruit of Love for others that is "burning" in their hearts, because in everyone and in everything they see God.

May God bless us, all.

Michelle Mosca

22-09-2005, 10:25 PM

i understand what your saying. i guess my question was coming from seeing my mom praying for the dead trying to help them. i understand that prayer like that can only help those who are still living, those who are doing the praying. memorial services seem to only be there for those who are still alive, a time to remember those we loved, and continue to love who have passed on....onto what awaits us, whereever that is. however i don't think everybody understands that, i just wanted to make sure i really did have the right idea, my heart says i do, my head says i do... so i guess i do. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

M.C. Steenberg

22-09-2005, 11:51 PM

Dear Michelle,

It would be good for you to be able to be in some kind of personal contact with someone about this - a priest, or another person who might have more personal a venue than an open forum. Advice on prayer is often far more personal in need than public discussions allow. It seems like it would be especially important here, because the notion that 'prayer [...] can only help those who are still living, those who are doing the praying [...] memorial services seem to only be there for those who are still alive, a time to remember those we loved, and continue to love who have passed on' is definitively not the Church's teaching, and I fear that the flow of this thread may not be helping to reinforce that. If you e-mail or Private Message me, I would be more than happy to point you in the direction of some good individuals for personal correspondence.

INXC, Matthew

Owen Jones

23-09-2005, 12:21 AM

We may be most familiar with the idea of salvation as personal forgiveness, or justification. In Orthodox Christianity, this is not salvation as such, but rather our introduction to salvation. In Orthodoxy, salvation is unity and harmony, not only of purpose, but of function and of place. This is why we can say that it is Beauty that saves, God's Beauty applied, not only to us but to all of His Creation. Our understanding of salvation must always be grounded in our understanding of Creation. The natural state of Creation is one of unity and harmony, not one of enmity and strife, or even competition. Historically, this desire for unity is often compromised by supposedly well meaning people who then believe that unity and harmony must be imposed by human force. That is a somewhat different issue of course, but only points to the universal feeling that unity and harmony is the essence of salvation, not simply forgiveness of sins. If salvation is reduced to forgiveness of sins, then it is only logical that we think of salvation as limited to a reward in heaven. But that is not the Orthodox understanding. So there is a unity of souls in God's Kingdom, and while prayer is not the same as communication, we continue the unity of the liturgy through our prayers for the dead, and for the non-Orthodox.

Michelle Mosca

23-09-2005, 01:47 AM

well that's odd because that's what our priest told me. memorial services are mostly for the people left behind. and it's odd to say that you have to earn your salvation, or live Godly and once your soul leaves your body that's it, but then say pray for the dead they need it? doesn't make one bit of sense to me.

Michelle Mosca

23-09-2005, 01:49 AM

and i'm not being cold about it if that's how it seems. i care about people who have passed on, and i certainly hope that they were "saved", but i have enough sense to know that they HAVE passed, and why would God have me use my time praying for somebody already gone, instead of praying for those in need around me, praising him, or praying for myself. there are much more productive things to be done then....pray for the dead who don't really need it.

nurse-aid

23-09-2005, 02:17 AM

i guess and that what i know that soul never die...so no meter in body or not...so we are here praying for them, the same as for the alive...and they are, as i know praying for us THERE...at list Saints...so we are by this keep in touch...or simply never separates in spirit...and many knew how departed one is near and let alive ones sometimes to clearly know this...so even if our close ones far away in different country and we do not hear from them or communicate with them it means WHAT we are simply stop love them, or pray for them...becuse to LOVE is the PRAYER....or if we are know that who we love is fine and all set..we are what stop love them againg, becuse they ARE ALL SET?...so were is no diffrence alive or dead...it is only body which die...so OUR Community is much wider then only alive who we able to see by physical eyes...

M.C. Steenberg

23-09-2005, 10:22 AM

Dear Michelle, you wrote:

but i have enough sense to know that they HAVE passed, and why would God have me use my time praying for somebody already gone, instead of praying for those in need around me, praising him, or praying for myself.

This is precisely the realm in which there is a confusion of beliefs. The teaching of the Church is that such people are not 'gone', but in a different state. This present life has ended, but the person still exists - though with soul separated from body, this is a mysterious existence. Yet death is not the defeat of life: this the great hope and reality of Pascha. Nonetheless, in that mysterious period between death and the resurrection to judgement and eternity, the Church understands life to be hindered by death; full freedom is not fully present, in the same way that a person in this life, if injured and thrust into a coma, is not fully able to care for himself. The person is not 'gone', and others do not pray for him simply to remind themselves of his plight; prayers are for his genuine and real healing. The same is true, by analogy, with prayers for the departed. We are little able to do else for them than pray, but this we are enjoined to do, for them and not merely for ourselves.

INXC, Matthew

M.C. Steenberg

23-09-2005, 10:23 AM

Owen wrote:

So there is a unity of souls in God's Kingdom, and while prayer is not the same as communication, we continue the unity of the liturgy through our prayers for the dead, and for the non-Orthodox.

Good point; and good post overall. Thank you.

INXC, Matthew

Mariamni

23-09-2005, 11:06 AM

Dear friends,

Thank you Owen for your post about harmony and unity. Remembering the departed is more than simply not forgetting them. I recall a friend saying that the opposite of remembering is not forgetting, but dismembering. In the liturgy we the living come together to re-member ourselves as the body of the Church, and by our prayers for the departed they too are re-membered with us. We pray for the living and departed alike that the Lord will 'wash away the sins of all those here remembered'. And yes, for the Orthodox salvation begins at this point, we glimpse the harmony.

In XC, Mariamni

Matthew Panchisin

23-09-2005, 03:10 PM

That was a very good post Owen. While I was reading it I thought of Proskomedia (the Liturgy of Oblation) when the Priest takes pieces of the bread placing them on the diskos while praying for the living and departed is a wonderful presentation of that unity which really symbolises Love. During the Divine Liturgy it is placed into the Chalice, there is always unity in the Chalice of Christ's Mystical Body and Blood of the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. There are so many mystical realities in the Orthodox Church i.e. the Priest lifting the diskos and Chalice saying (Thine own of thine own we offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all) the Priest who holds the Lamb of God in his hand, listening we can hear with the ears of faith the love of God. During the Liturgy before we may receive the Eucharist thanks be to God, we pray thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth at it is in heaven. It seems to me that the Lords prayer and the Divine liturgy are eschatological as there is a relationship between the Eucharist and the Kingdom of God and the continuity of the 8th day.

St Maximus mentions;

As we believe that we have participated in the gifts of the Holy Spirit here, in the present life, through the grace which is by faith, so we believe that we shall take possession of these gifts in the age to come in truth, really and in actual fact, according to the unfailing hope of
our faith and the sure and inviolable promise of him who gave us this promise. Having kept the commandments according to our ability, [we shall receive these gifts,] moving from the grace which is by faith to grace by sight, as our God and Saviour Jesus Christ transforms us to be like himself, by taking away the characteristics of
corruption which are in us and bestowing on us the
archetypal mysteries which have been shown to us in some measure here through sensible symbols"

It is Gods' will that the Orthodox Church prays for those that have departed this life. There is a rather long 2000 year old tradition of praying for the dead. In the Holy land the dead sea area has many old Orthodox Churches and the Saints often prayed for the dead on earth in the desert and in the Church, certainly their disposition have not changed in heaven, correctly neither has the Orthodox Church. Praying for the dead is a gift that is given.

Christ prayed for the dead.

John 11

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Michelle Mosca

23-09-2005, 03:39 PM

death is just the beginning of eternal life. my point is we are here on THIS earth and THIS world, when they die they leave THIS earth and THIS world, as we know it. God doesn't just leave them floundering about somewhere, He takes care of us here, as sinners. So when we leave our flesh, our sinning bodies, what makes you think He's not taking very good care of them where ever they are? We should not have to continually pray for their saftey and well being, there is nothing left to be done, they are still in the hands of the Lord. Eventually we will all meet up in Heaven, all will be revealed to us, and for all of eternity we will be at peace living with our Lord. i still haven't heard one good reason to pray for the dead. praying for the dead is just taking our minds off the Lord, off our faith in the Lord. and praying TO the dead is just a whole nother story, which i hope no one considers.

In John 11 how is that praying for the dead? or is that not the example you were using?

You can use tradition as a reason, but there has to be Biblical reasoning that is behind this tradition that i have yet to see.

M.C. Steenberg

23-09-2005, 03:52 PM

i still haven't heard one good reason to pray for the dead.

Nor I, in this, one good reason for praying for the living.

INXC, Matthew

nurse-aid

23-09-2005, 04:04 PM

you do not understand because in you wive...prayer is ASKING...in my wive it is LOVE itsef...

Owen Jones

23-09-2005, 04:29 PM

Protestantism, in an extreme reaction to certain mainfestations in the Roman Church which Orthodoxy never practiced, has eliminated every vestige of teachings that point to a mystical union between God and His Creation as vain superstition. It has eliminated the reality of communion with God entirely, and those protestant denominations that do still practice communion view it as a memorial service, and even then, a very reductionistic view of memorial. (In the Greek, memorial and memory signify a union). In Protestantism, everything has been reduced to individual relationships. So, it is understandable that a Protestant is not only not going to understand the theology or reality of mystical union, but is going to be openly hostile to this, as a legacy of anti-Roman feeling. Protestantism, originally, is, in fact, a re-Judaising of Christianity, and the union of God and man was and is still a scandal to Jews.

If, however, a Protestant is sincerely searching for a deeper understanding, and seeking something more than Protestant teaching that, in effect, cuts us off from our Savior, then Orthodox worship is a good place to start. Attend an Orthodox liturgy for six months or a year on a regular basis, and then take a fresh look at your theological assumptions. The Greeks in the U.S. are noted for fairly terrible liturgy, the Russians for what is arguably more inspiring and moving, but in either case, the theology and practice is the same. The Antiochians have more of a tradition in the U.S. of lay participation in the ligurgical hymns and chants, and most of it will be in English. Avoid tiny congregations of just a few families or priests who belong to non-canonical splinter groups.

Michelle Mosca

23-09-2005, 10:29 PM

i went to an Orthodox church for 17 years. i knew nothing about God, and only started to learn when I was looking at other churches for a school project. i'm not being hostle, i'm asking for answers, with Biblical scriptures to back up the tradition, if you can't give that to me, i'll just have to look elsewhere.

Owen Jones

23-09-2005, 10:46 PM

When one lists their affiliation as Protestant, one makes certain assumptions. First among them is that the person is a Protestant.

With apologies in advance, the Pharisees asked Jesus many questions. He never gave them an answer that pleased them. He often answered questions with a question, or with a parable (sermon). Often they demanded an exact answer based on Scriptures. Typically, he had a somewhat different interpretation than they.

We seem to be stuck at that point.

Michelle Mosca

24-09-2005, 12:19 AM

i don' t think so. first off you aren't Jesus, we have more to go off of, we have Jesus' teaching, which essencially what they also had. They asked questions and He answered them. They learned from those teachings. I'm just asking to be pointed in the direction of which of those teachings would help me out here. I'll just go to the preist at my parent's church if no one here can help me. Also I do consider myself a Protestant, because I came to know Jesus in that way. Also, the protestant churches i went to, and the Bible study i attend give me answers. The Lord feeds me more there than He ever did at the Orthodox church. I'm trying to find a church in my life and i am exploring all the options.

Leandros Papadopoulos

24-09-2005, 02:57 AM

Sister in Christ Michelle Mosca,

I admire your genuine personal “mistrust” in traditions and customs. You ask for hard documented evidence. In a way, you remind me of St Thomas who did exactly the same thing, it is a blessed mistrust.

Your argument, as I understand it, is that after death each person is “taken very good care by God, whatever they are. We should not have to continually pray for their safety and well being, there is nothing left to be done, they are still in the hands of the Lord. Eventually we will all meet up in Heaven, all will be revealed to us, and for all of eternity we will be at peace living with our Lord”.

I have to admit that you present a very logical argument. After all, each person is responsible and has the freedom to relate personally with God or not to do that while living. Neither I nor you, nor anybody else for that matter, can substitute another in his/her life. We live a personal life; we assume responsibility for our personal way of living and for our faith or unbelief towards God.

Some of us will die young while others at old age, others suddenly and others after long illness, others while being faithful to God and others unfaithful, but everybody nevertheless will certainly die and then “God will take care for him/her”. Praying for a dead person is like wanting to “re-write” a completed life.

Let us accept this logical assumption as a fact and let’s examine the following passages from the scriptures, to see how this logic is applied in the Bible:

At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did. But it happened in those days that she became sick and died. When they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. And since Lydda was near Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent two men to him, imploring him not to delay in coming to them. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them. But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive. And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed on the Lord. (Acts 9:36-42) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=act%209:36-42;&version=50;)

And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, “Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him.” Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed. And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted. (Acts 20:9-12) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2020:9-12;&version=50;)

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith…women received their dead raised to life again... (Hebrews 11:1-3, 11:35) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews11:35;&version=50;)

In the first biblical passage St Peter prayed for the dead Dorcas and she returned to life.

In the second passage St Paul revitalize the dead Eutychus in the same way.

In the third passage St Paul explains to Hebrews that “women received their dead raised to life again, by faith” in God, and he talks here about specific cases in the Old Testament. The first case was of prophet Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2017:17-24;&version=50;) who prayed for the dead son of a widow and the second case is the case of prophet Elisha (2 Kings 4:31-37) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%204:31-37;&version=50;) who prayed for the dead son of a Shunammite woman.

Now, how is the logical assumption that "dead people are beyond our prayers and that only themselves alone are responsible and personally accountable before God" applied in the above passages?

In the above examples an alive person prayed for a dead person, and God heard and accepted the request, while the dead person was being in His mighty “hand”.

Sister in Christ Michelle Mosca, I think that these passages from the bible, both from the Old and from the New Testament, show that the prayer has enormous “power” and that it has the power to be heard and accepted by God even when it concerns dead persons.

Maybe, this is the answer that you are looking in your honest and unfeigned seek for the Truth. Let me repeat something that is already said: your quest is for “the right way to pray”. And you already said that you are afraid that “praying for the dead is just taking our minds off the Lord, off our faith in the Lord”. But it is the Lord, towards Whom our prayers for the dead are directed. In God we pray, following the examples of St Peter, St Paul, St prophet Elisha, and St prophet Elijah.

And what is it more proper: to pray to God for a dead person to be received in Heaven, or to ask for his resurrection right now and right here, in order to have an "extension" of life? Which of the two prayers are more Orthodox? And is it that we can not pray for the dead at all, or that we can only pray for certain matters and not for some others? What is the meaning of these passages from the bible, regarding God and prayer and alive and dead persons? The answer is to be found in our heart coming from the Spirit.

Maybe we are not like these saints and our faith does not have the power to move mountains, or bring up a dead, but nevertheless we do not have to become saints and then to start praying. We may pray for the dead in same sense in which we pray for everything else: as “unworthy servants” of the Lord.

May God bless us, all.

Antonios

24-09-2005, 04:42 AM

Reminds me of a story regarding St. Makarios (circa late 300's):

Once, St. Makarios was walking and saw a skull lying upon the ground. He asked, "Who are you?" The skull answered, "I was a chief priest of the pagans. When you, Abba, pray for those in hell, we receive some mitigation."

The monk asked, "What are these torments?" "We are sitting in a great fire," replied the skull, "and we do not see one another. When you pray, we begin to see each other somewhat, and this affords us some comfort." Having heard such words, the saint began to weep and asked, "Are there still more fiercesome torments?" The skull answered, "Down below us are those who knew the Name of God, but spurned Him and did not keep His commandments. They endure even more grievous torments."

I know I don't know what happens at the moment of death. I have seen friends and loved ones leave this world to face the next chapter of life. I do know one thing, however. I would rather spend the rest of my life praying to God to have mercy on there souls not knowing if it will change a thing, than to give up hope that my love for them counts for nothing when they are gone. Our Lord is a merciful God. I cant imagine our prayers to the deceased fall on deaf ears.

in humilty and love,
Antonios

Michelle Mosca

24-09-2005, 05:12 AM

I guess you have to make the decision yourself. There are right and wrong ways to pray, and mostly we are lead by what is inside ourselves. We each have different gifts, different strengths, and it is our choice, our God given free will, as to how to use those gifts.

In my heart I still don't feel compelled to pray for those I love who have passed. I guess in my heart I feel at peace, i don't feel like praying for them will do any good, they are where they are because of the choices they made while they were living. I will admit i am going to look into those passages, they are interesting stories that I have not read yet. I've got enough trust in the Lord for Him to handle things, He is fair.

There was something else i wanted to add, but i forget...hmm, maybe next time ;)

M.C. Steenberg

24-09-2005, 11:38 AM

Dear Michelle and others,

My brief remarks above (in reaction to 'I still haven't heard one good reason to pray for the dead', I wrote 'Nor I, in this, one good reason for praying for the living') were an attempt to show that there are two questions 'at stake' in this discussion: the more specific question of prayer for the dead, but also the more broad question of prayer in general. They must go the other way round: without an accurate conception of what prayer is itself, the question of prayer for the dead hinges on differing and often opposed interpretations of why 'that' prayer is or is not good/useful.

The common (and wrong) starting point is the idea of prayer as simple petition and request for another. The Orthodox understand this as a valid type of prayer, but an entirely minimalist (therefore insufficient) understanding of prayer overall. Still, even by its own standards, the very arguments used from this context against prayer for the dead (e.g. God is looking out for them, they made their own choices) in fact speak against prayer for the living as well (God is also looking out for them, they still make their own choices). To demand that prayer for the dead is improper on these kinds of grounds is either to take a view that intercessory prayer really has no value even in the present life -- it's just something we do to make ourselves feel better --; or to deny the reality of the resurrection, that 'even the dead are made alive in Christ'.

INXC, Matthew

M.C. Steenberg

24-09-2005, 11:49 AM

To put things in the form of an analogy given to me, on intercession for the dead:

In this life a young man was approached by his mother who suffered from extreme anxiety. 'Pray for me', she would ask him, and he did. His prayer offered to God was for her peace and the closer union with Christ that it might bring. The mother saw her son each month for a year, and always made the same request, 'Pray for me', and always he did. At the year's end, the mother died. That night, the young man stood and prayed the same prayer he had for the past months -- for her peace, and for the union with Christ it would bring. His mother had been taken from this life, but not from life itself. Still she lived in Christ, and still did love compel him to pray for the living one he loved, separated from him by death but still a human soul in the communion of love with others.

Prayer for the dead is not about appeasing God on another's behalf, any more than that is the focus of prayer for the living in this life. Prayer is the act of loving communion with God, which draws all others into that same love and communion. Fundamentally, the 'state' of the other -- good, evil, repentant, intransigent, and even living or dead -- does not matter: prayer is offered in love for union and love. To deny this prayer to and for any, especially the dead, is to cease to believe in the intimate relation of all the human family, the living and the departed, in the one body, life and kingdom of God -- and the power of God, through the resurrection, to defeat and transcend what otherwise would be barriers to this life of loving communion: most potently death. It is only in this context that the Church is able to proclaim through her scriptures 'O hell, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'

INXC, Matthew

Fr Aaron Warwick

24-09-2005, 01:53 PM

Dear Michelle:

May God bless you in your journey! I sincerely respect you as a sister who is seeking the Lord with her whole heart!

From an Orthodox perspective, there are several problems with your conclusions, not the least of which Dr. Steenberg has already noted. I will not repeat what he has said, but will give you opportunity to respond to him.

In addition to Dr. Steenberg's critique, I think that there is another issue we need to discuss. We will make little, if any, progress regarding this or any other subject until we deal with your demand to "prove" something from the Bible and to ignore our traditions, which are essentially our interpretations and expansions upon the teachings of Scripture, none of which are non-Scriptural (i.e. Scripture does not forbid such a belief or interpretation). I recommend that you start another thread to discuss this subject as I believe this is key to our understanding of many topics.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

24-09-2005, 02:22 PM

To my poor addled mind & heart it seems that we are called by Christ to be co-redeemers with Him of the world's sin & death. This is central to what our prayer for both the living and dead are all about. As Matthew says our prayers are not simple petitions or about appeasing God- rather they are a participation in God's work of healing the world of sin and death.

Who could turn away from such an incredible gift? Only due to our short-sightedness and mainly selfishness do we not see or take up what is offered. For we sense correctly that what Christ offers in terms of healing the world is a cross- and this scares us. In a way our life in Christ then is learning how to die to ourselves so that we can pray for others.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

A humble guest

05-03-2006, 08:12 PM

Beloved brethren in Christ,

Father Averky, may the Lord have mercy on his soul, put it beautifully. We pray for God's mercy on the soul until the final judgement. Our prayers of love are efficacious. This is Orthodoxy. This is why we have Saturday of the Souls. This is why we have memorial services. This is why, in Orthodox countries, after mentioning the name of the deceased,traditionally, one says 'may God have mercy on his soul'. I loved some of my family members. I know that some were not really devout or gave much thought in their lives to their faith. I pray for God's loving mercy on their souls for their eternal life.

May the memory of all our deceased loved ones be eternal in the kingdom of our God.

Humbly,
A Guest

M.C. Steenberg

05-03-2006, 09:13 PM

Dear all,

Following on the post above, there are several hymns for the Saturdays of the Dead (celebrated especially during Great Lent), on-line here (http://www.monachos.net/great_lent/saturday_of_the_dead.shtml).

INXC, Matthew

Kusanagi

14-08-2007, 09:21 PM

old thread but i feel like adding in the life of St John the Romanian he recalls there was a priest who was always drunk but he always did his duty of praying for the dead.
One time a bishop wanted to dispose of this drunk priest but before he could sign the declaration he could hear many invisible voices telling him to stop what he was about to do.
The bishop kept wondering what was happening and each time he tried to sign the letter the voices instructed him to stop.
in the end the bishop asked for the priest and asked him what does he do. He told the bishop that he always prayed for the dead.

So an example that Orthodox people do pray for the dead and that it brings some benefit to them.
Also in the life of St Macarius the Great when he was talking to the pagan skull the skull told him that prayers for them in hades they receive some sort of relieve.

Prayers for the dead through the Divine Liturgy can save people from hades.

Archbishop Lazar

26-02-2008, 06:48 AM

Among other things, prayers for the dead is a confession of faith. To offer prayers for the departed confesses our belief in the victory of Christ over the power of death. Since we believe in the Resurrection of the departed --- that is, in the resurrection of the body and its reunion with the soul ---- our prayers for the departed confesses our faith in the resurrection. Secondly, our prayers for the dead is an act of love. Since the soul of a departed person is not "comatose," but has some awareness by God's grace, it is clear that the departed person is able to feel the love when our prayers for them are offered in love. God is love, and no act of sincere love will ever go unfulfilled. So prayers for the departed are testimonies of faith in Christ's victory, faith in the promise of the resurrection of the dead, faith in the gift of life by grace, and testimonies to the oneness of the Church and to the power of love. More could be said, but the above is really what motivates our prayers.
+Archbishop Lazar.

I am asking a question here which will probably sound very ignorant and silly of me, but it has been sitting on my mind for some time. I personally know that Roman Catholics pray for the dead because they believe that their prayers as Christians can intercede for the souls who are in purgatory, and liberate them into heaven. With regards to Orthodoxy, mainly from what little I have read in evangelical-Orthodox exchanges on their differences or similarities in relation to Roman Catholicism, I am aware that Orthodoxy does not endorse the idea of a purgatory because of its relative lateness after the 6 Councils up to Chalcedon. But do Orthodox Christians pray for the dead still, and what is the Biblical or patristic justification for it if it is indeed a practice in Orthodoxy?

Kevin