Death and the afterlife

[Pamela Hristov]

I am new to the Orthodox faith. I have many publications and articles that I have found on the Net. However, I have yet to find anything that refers to the afterlife after death. Can someone here give me a direction as to where to look for those articles.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear in the Lord, Pamela,

As an initial response to your question, I might point you towards an older thread in the Ascesis and Praxis thread in which was discussion the notion of praying for the dead (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/71/89.html). That discussion brought up a few elements of Orthodox belief regarding the future life; and it also provided a few links to various materials elsewhere on the internet.

In terms of actual online documents on death and the future life, by far the most consolodated collection is on Patrick Barne's Website, the Orthodox Information Centre, in his Death and the Future Life (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/index.html) area (use the drop-down menu towards the upper right-hand corner of that page to access the many sub-sections of the area).

I am sure that this new thread will promote much in the way of interesting discussion.

INXC, Matthew

[Michel Depiesse]

On Friday 23 August 2002 19:36, you wrote: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hieritheos Life after death ISBN 960-7070-34-8

Birth of the Theotokos monastery

http://www.pelagia.org pelagia@pelagia.org

In the light of Christ

Michel Depiesse ROCOR Brussels

[Pamela Hristov]

Many, Many Thanks to both Matthew and Michel for the information. I have checked out the suggested link and found them tremendously helpful. I especially found the Orthodox Information Center especially informative. I hadn't realized what a large amount of information there was to be found in that site!!!

Thanks Again!!
Pamela

[Edmund Ross]

Hi everybody. Somebody mentioned somewhere else in this site the idea of "tollhouses" as something that has to do with the orthodox understanding of the afterlife. I've heard of this idea before, but I don't know anything about it.

Can anyone speak about these "tollhouses," even if they aren't universally accepted?

Thank you

[Mark W. Flory]

Edmund,

Well, it was inevitable that the discussion would go here...

I, for one, would be happy to expound ad infinitum (et nauseam) on the topic, if you or someone else here can tell me WHAT GOOD IT WILL DO YOU OR ME FOR OUR SALVATION?

Ours is not to know the time nor place...

Suffice it to say that there is a debate (if that's what you call the posturing of persons holding two equally dogmatic and uncompromising opinions) about the validity of the "tollhouses" concept. (Admittedly, if you are a party to this debate, on either side, you do not regard it as a debate. You simply regard the other side as uninformed, at best, or even "un-Orthodox.")

My suggestion: ignore the whole topic, and most everything concerning the afterlife, which is 9/10 speculation. Even if we have some reports based on the accounts of the saints, we must still ask: WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO ME FOR MY SALVATION?

Forgive me if I sound short-tempered...I once let myself get embroiled in this discussion, much to my embarassment and spiritual distraction. Believe me, it is not worth the effort to figure out what is what in this regard. My suggestion: go on over to the Jesus Prayer discussions, which are much more fruitful.

And pray for me, a sinner.

[Edmund Ross]

Hello Mr. Flory.

Thank you for your message. I do appreciate what you said about not wanting to focus too much on these sorts of things, and I agree with you that there are better things to spend our time and energies on. But I am not actually interested in debating them or dwelling on them too much. I am simply interested in knowing what the "debate" is all about, since I really don't know anything at all about the whole issue of "tollhouses." It is strange not even to know what the debate is.

Maybe there is a way to address what the idea is about, without focusing too much energy on it?

Ed

[Owen Jones]

Dear Ed,

The late Seraphim Rose, a monastic, wrote about the toll houses extensively and as an advocate of restoring this ancient teaching which he attributed to a number of Patristic sources. This seems to have sparked a lot of discussion among the laity who have read his works, works about him, or works published by his monastic brotherhoold. Books published by the Brotherhood of St. Herman tend to be very popular, especially among converts. It sparked a reaction among some, saying that this was never Orthodox or Patristic doctrine.

To put it overly simply, you might argue it's our version of Purgatory (or that Purgatory is the Roman version of the toll houses). The idea is that when you die you will be accosted by all of your familiar demons one more time as a kind of last test to see how you score.

Some people see this, of course, as reflecting a theology which sees God primarily in terms of his wrath, punishment and judgment. And since Rose was very traditional, and very ascetic, the idea of the Toll Houses might tend to fall into that kind of direction. But there also is a liberalizing tendency in the Church and this is one of those issues in which it is claimed that traditionalists put more credence in the idea of toll houses than those in the Church (call them "progressives" or "liberals") who wish for Orthodoxy not to come off as superstitious (what with saints that come back from the dead and wear out their shoes and that sort of thing).

I'm not well read enough to cite the patristic sources, so I'll leave that up to others.

My own view is that, whatever you call it, toll houses or purgatory, it represents God's inordinate mercy. It's one last chance for those of us who are terrible sinners to demonstrate our obedience and resistance to the demons. In Orthodoxy, we are always given one last chance. As in St. John Chrysostom's Paschal sermon.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

As a preface to this discussion, I might recommend that interested individuals locate a copy of Constantine Cavernos' short text, Death and the Future Life According to Orthodox Teaching, which provides an excellent introduction into the patristic conception of these topics.

The notion of 'toll houses' is not addressed therein as its own issue; but the concepts which give rise to this topic as its own theme will be found in the text, and provide a good background for consideration of the topic.

INXC, Matthew

[sinjin smithe]

This is the first time I have heard anything about toll houses and our version of purgatory. I don't like the idea of purgatory because I see no biblical evidence for it or for this idea of toll houses. I don't like the idea of having all of my familar demons accosting me one last time after death, I struggle enough with them enough already. The problem with this toll house idea is that it says we are not really saved, that when we die we go through trials and if we past them, then we go to heaven. My question here is whatever happen to the belief in Jesus for salvation, i.e. if we believe and follow him then we are saved. What is the purpose of following and worshiping Christ when in the end it is all based on trials after death? Also, what is the purpose then of repenting in this life if after death we still get one more chance? This is where the ideas of purgatory and toll houses lead. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Sinjin,

What if you had lived a life of vanity, even cruelty, in which repentence never even crossed your mind? Are you saying that there is no final opportunity for repentance? No last chance? At what point in our travail do we get that last chance? I think the idea of the toll houses, whether Biblica or not, is motivated by a sense of God's mercy.

And also, what about the vanity of the Christian? Gee, I've lived a good life. I never hurt anyone. Why do I have to be tempted one more time? I want the rewards that are due to me!!!

[sinjin smithe]

Owen, you did not answer my question. If what you said is true, then why repent in this life when we get one more chance? Why be an imitator of Christ?

[Owen Jones]

The answer to your question, Sinjin, is very simple. We are commanded to do so. Otherwise, our good bahavior and our faith is self-serving, cold and calculating. It's us trying to cut a good deal with God, and that's not how it works.

oaj

[Pamela Hristov]

I didn't think that we were good Christians for what is due us in the end. I for one follow the orthodox faith and try and lead a good Christian life because it is the thing that God wants us to do. Of course I don't want to spend my eternity in hell..but at the same time(atleast for me) I don't think my faith stems from fear. Although I am recently new to the Orthodox faith and in no way can my knowlege of it can compare to your alls; I have read a great deal of the information that is out there. There is one theme that seems to run thru most of the readings; the concept that the Lord is just and merciful. I have to say I have not read anything on the tollhouse readings, but plan to. So I can't say how I feel or what I believe in regards to that. I do know that the Lord I have come to know is a just and merciful Lord and I can see where he might be willing to give us mere humans ...just one more chance.

[Richard McBride]

The Altar of God, the very centre of the centre of Orthodoxy, is so far from the ?earth? (that is, the floor of the Nave), and thus, how far it must seem from the world outside. It is truly wonderful to be drawn into its very nexus, so rich with the mundane and celestial passages of holy lives and weeping sinners. By the mere exposure to such a stew, the almost unimaginable promise which the Theotokos keeps repeating to us, directs us, out of it, into the bosom of her Son and Lord.

Yet, that path to her Son is not the promise of a comfy chair. It is no afterlife reserved for couch potatoes. Which is to say, the world outside is not the sweet and nice place we should like to imagine, but rather it is the place where our Saviour was murdered, and it is the place which will do us in as well -- should we fail to realize the stringencies required to climb out of it.

As one of the couch potatoes, I wonder just what it may mean to take up the Cross and follow in His footsteps. I have seen enough to know that in the beginning one simply learns how stringent the Way of God may become -- but this is not yet true travel on the Way. In particular, I am learning to mourn.

Saint John of the Ladder is one of the ikons rising up out of the Altar. He tells me that mourning is a melancholy of the soul, the disposition of an anguished heart that passionately seeks that for which it thirsts. When it fails to attain it, the heart pursues it diligently and follows behind, lamenting bitter tears. This is the seventh rung of the ladder. But the preceding rung is even more stringent.

The sixth rung teaches of thanatos and its remembrance. As the apostles told Jesus, this is a hard saying. Yet, had we not come into Orthodoxy we should never have been faced with the realization of death which John Klimacos warns is essential. Had we not been drawn into this nexus of wonderful paths, we should never know that lacking the fear of judgement will lead to disaster. Even the saints weep for fear of their ignored sins, as the angel leads them toward judgement.

If even the saints weep in fear, should I do less?

[Owen Jones]

Thank you, Pamela, for your very poignant comments. The Bible says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. The BEGINNING! Not the end. The end of all wisdom can be found in Blessed Augustine's dictum: love God and do as you please. That means that if we truly love God then our will will naturally be in accord with His, and we can do what pleases us because it will be true.

A modern man some consider a saint defined Orthodoxy as the most natural way to live. That's another way of looking at the same thing.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Perhaps it would be interesting to move this conversation towards the Orthodox teaching on what is often called the 'middle state', or the state of souls after the physical death of an individual and before the final judgement that will occur at the Second Coming of Christ. While the notion of 'toll houses' is somewhat controversial (primarily because it forces into the mould of a concrete, hard-and-fast dogma the varied teachings of many Fathers who discussed the issue of the future life in a much more encompassing way), the idea of a 'middle state' is well attested to in Orthodox patristic writings. It is in relation to this theme, also, that questions of 'purgatory' or a purgative value to the pre-Judgement afterlife can be more adequately addressed.

For some reading on the 'middle state' in Orthodox teaching, I would again refer readers to the brief work already mentioned in this thread, The Future Life According to Orthodox Teaching by Constantine Cavarnos. This little document (which I have seen published in pamphlet form) contains what is perhaps the best summary of the middle state as it is presented in the Fathers -- recapitulating only what is actually said in the tradition and not entering into the interpretive disputes of the present day.

Additional important texts include various writings by: St Nektarios of Aegina, whose reflections on the matter at hand are presented in the volume Study Concerning the Immortality of the Soul and the Holy Memorial Services (Athens, 1901); St Symeon of Thessalonica, especially in his Collected Works as published in Thessaloniki, 1960; Abba Dorotheus, as in Our Holy Father Dorotheos: Words on Contrition (Volos, 1960; see esp. pp. 89 ff.); Macarius the Great, the Spiritual Homilies.

For an excellent Scriptural reference that has everything to do with the 'middle state' in Orthodox thought, see the Gospel of Luke, 16.19-31 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke%2B16%3A19-31&NKJV_version=yes&language=english). This passage contains much insight into the state of the human person after death and before the Final Judgement -- including the notion that souls are conscious and can recognise one another; that they can both feel pain and experience blessing; that the state of their existence is related in a direct way to the manner in which they lived their life on earth; etc.

As a follow up to the above Scripture reading, one should then proceed to read the texts of the services of burial and panikhida; for these offer important revelation on the Church's understanding of how those yet living in the world can interact with those who are in the 'middle state' - through prayer, alms, etc. The texts of these services will also make clear the Church's belief that the state of the soul in the middle state may be influenced by the prayers of the faithful.

INXC, Matthew

[Gregory Myron]

Can someone comment on how the "middle state" compares with the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory?

---gregory

[Pamela Hristov]

Thank you Owen for your kind thoughts. Maybe in the beginnning I got into "the Orthodox thing" for fear of my own future in the "afterlife". However, I find what I do now and what I follow is because it makes me feel good. Not in a sensual way, but a deep down in my heart way. When I hear the words, or read the readings its like my soul is all a glow. I can't describe the actual feelings...I only know that what I feel is right...it fills me with anticipation..It makes me happy to be alive, yet at the same time I do not fear death...I almost welcome it!! For the first time in my life I have actual hope and little fear of what is to become of me. Perhaps or I suppose I am supposed to be afraid but I am not. I only know I look forward to each day and hope it will be better than the last. A bit of background info here that I hope does not bore other readers. Our business burnt to the ground last November. My husband was lucky to get another job right away..Except he broke his back in a accident at work...last Feburary. Since then he has been without work and I have been unable to get employment.We recently filed for bankruptcy, and have lost our house. Yet almost three months ago I started going to a Serbian Orthodox Church and I feel like I have found a renewed hope in my life. I know that whatever comes my way...with God's Help I will perserve!!

[Pamela Hristov]

To Matthew and others...thanks for the suggestions...I really appreciate the info. I have put them in a list on my desk top for books to buy when I am financially able to afford them...Again, thanks again!!

[Timothy]

Pamela ...... I just thought I'd let you know that a lot of the texts from the fathers that Matthew mentioned are online. You can find many of them at www.ccel.org/fathers2 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2) -- and for those you can't, try Google.com. It's amazing how many texts are online somewhere or other.

[Mark W. Flory]

I don't want to seem like a broken record (for you young folks, a "scratched CD"), but a comment in Owen Jones' recent post enables me to make my previous point more clearly. He states (quite aptly):

"The Bible says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. The BEGINNING! Not the end. The end of all wisdom can be found in Blessed Augustine's dictum: love God and do as you please."

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and love of God the fullness of wisdom. However, due to our (or at least my) Western mind-set, this makes us think that fear and wisdom are dichotomous: as if love simply replaces fear. Such thinking tends to ignore the fact that spiritual life as conceived by the Fathers is a PROCESS. And Mr. Jones' quote therefore begs the questions: what's between the beginning of wisdom and the end? How does one get from one to the other? The answer, in my understanding, is through PRAXIS in synergy with GRACE; i.e., spiritual struggle which cooperates with God's gracious energies.

But this raises a more difficult issue, which is that fear does not disappear when love begins. In the first place, the passage suggested by Mr. Owens is from one of two similar, but interestingly different, passages in Proverbs. The first reads: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (1:7) The second: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." So, our first question is: what is the relationship between instruction, knowledge, understanding, and wisdom? (And I suggest my answer to that question in the hierarchical order in which I list them.) A second, and much more problematic question is: what is Wisdom? (As in: "Wisdom hath builded her house" [Prov. 9:1])

Moreover, in Job we read: "the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom." (28:28) Not the beginning or end; wisdom, per se. And lest this seems to be too nice a reading, see Psalm 19:9: "The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever." In what sense can it be said to endure forever if it is replaced by love?

Proverbs clarifies these issues for us, defining "fear of the Lord" as "to hate evil." (8:13). Obviously, love of God does not eliminate righteous hatred of evil.

I think the answer to these questions lies embedded in another passage on fear of God from Proverbs, namely 15:33: "The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is humility." If we place this passage alongside 2 Corinthians 7:1 ("Having, therefore, these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."), I think it becomes apparent that "fear" here connotes the completing of a first "stage" of spiritual progress, namely the so-called "purgative" or "purificatory" stage (which comprises self-knowledge, detachment from the world, detachment from thoughts, the practice of the virtues [which certainly includes hating evil], and the beginnings of discernment). Therefore, "fear" and "love" are not dichotomous; nor is fear merely the precondition for love. Rather, fear is the "beginning of wisdom," i.e., the preparation for the second "stage," that of contemplation (in which one achieves the perception of created essences; see Aidan Nichols, The Byzantine Gospel, pp. 28-29). Thus, fear is not a beginning in the sense of something afterward superceded, but in the sense of a preparatory development which enables - and is ingredient in - further progress.

I leave it to others to draw the implications of such an understanding of fear and love for the issue of the afterlife. As I said before, the issue of the afterlife is ONLY pertinent to our faith if it directly contributes to our pursuit of theosis. I would suggest that, if we must discuss the afterlife, we keep the issue of fear/love (and the spiritual practices which connect them) central.

[Justin]

I'd add On the Soul and the Resurrection (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-05/Npnf2-05-37.htm) by Gregory of Nyssa for reading.

[Richard McBride]

Saint Peter of Damaskos Laments:

What is this mystery that has befallen us?
How have we been given over to corruption?
How have we been yoked to death?
Truly it is by God's command, as it is written.
Ah, what will I do at the moment of death, when the demons encircle my unhappy soul, bearing the indictment of the sins I have committed, consciously or unconsciously, in word, act and thought, and demanding from me my defence?
But alas, even without any other sin, I am already condemned -- and rightly so -- for not having kept the commandments.

Philokalia; v.III; p.114.

[Justin]

This subject is always a tricky one. "Why would God test us after we die?" "Is there a purging of sin after death?" "Why do we pray for the dead if there isn't a purgatorial like state?" We could ask dozens of questions, but I think that in the end we can't really know, and just have to accept what God has revealed to us, even if we feel like he's only given us a few pieces of the entire puzzle. Definately a subject for those new to Orthodoxy (me included) to stay away from.

[sinjin smithe]

Justin made me think of something. Why do we pray for dead then? Is it because God tests us after we die? Does God give us one last chance? If we do, that means that if someone commits suicide then they still have a chance to go to paradise.

[Kevin Claiborne]

Sinjin:

We pray for the dead because the "particular" or individual judgement at the time of death is not the final judgement. Although the soul can do nothing for itself after death, the prayers of Christians for dead souls can result in an improvement in that souls condition at the time of the the judgement at the second coming, which is final. God is not testing us after death, but in his infinite mercy gives sinners an opportunity to be saved by the love of others.

As far as suicide goes, we are taught that suicide is the sin of despair of the mercy of God, and because of this the suicide forfeits salvation. Of course God's judgements are not man's and we cannot speak for God in individual cases, but I wouldn't count on a "second chance".

Rdr Kevin

[sinjin smithe]

Kevin I disagree with you. There are some people who commit suicide because they are lonely, in pain, etc, in these instances it is hard to see what the church teaches about suicide applying in those cases. Some people may commit suicide because of despair of the mercy of God.

[Robert Mahoney]

Greetings all,

I have a question regarding what happens at the moment of death. I have read that it is orthodox belief that the soul of the person who has died is free to roam for 3 days, and then on the 3rd day it begins its 40 day journey and to be judged and then they either go to hades or paradise to await the resurrection.

What brings this discussion up with me is the fact that I have been helping my girlfriend with hospice patients and we had a patient die last evening and I just couldn't help but think of the orthodox belief.

Can anyone explain what happens in the 3 days after a person dies. I guess I am asking "How do we know?"

Thanks.

Robert Mahoney.

[Rose]

Thank you for asking these questions Robert. I'd also like to know what happens during the 40 day journey in addition to the 3 days.

[Rebecca]

Dear Robert,

Priest of parish I attend (Orthodox) said that the Church doesn't teach that the soul roams 3 days.

I have heard the ideas you're mentioning, and usually just remember the icons of the repose of several saints that show Christ holding the soul of the departed Saint (usually shown as a baby)...the Theotokos is one and I think it's St Ephrem the Syrian is another (or St Isaac the Syrian..not sure which of the two Syrians it is).

[Robert Mahoney]

Thank you for the responses, but below I will paste what I have read with the notes connected with them. This piece I found at Orthodox.net and it was written by St. John Maximovitch

Again, thanks for your input.

In Him,

Robert Mahoney

"But man was created for immortality, and by His resurrection Christ opened the gates of the Heavenly Kingdom, of eternal blessedness for those who have believed in Him and have lived righteously. Our earthly life is a preparation for the future life, and this preparation ends with our death. "It is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb 9:27). Then a man leaves all his earthly cares; the body disintegrates, in order to rise anew at the General Resurrection. Often this spiritual vision begins in the dying even before death, and while still seeing those around them and even speaking with them, they see what others do not see. [1]

But when it leaves the body, the soul finds itself among other spirits, good and bad. Usually it inclines toward those which are more akin to it in spirit, and if while in the body it was under the influence of certain ones, it will remain in dependence upon them when it leaves the body, however unpleasant they may turn out to be upon encountering them. [2]

For the course of two days the soul enjoys relative freedom and can visit places on earth which were dear to it, but on the third day it moves into other spheres. [3] At this time (the third day), it passes through legions of evil spirits which obstruct its path and accuse it of various sins, to which they themselves had tempted it."

Note 1

But his soul continues to live. Not for an instant does it cease to exist. Our external, biological and earthly life ends with death, but the soul continues to live on. The soul is our very existence, the center of all our energies and our thoughts. The soul moves and gives life to the body. After its separation from the body it continues to live, to exist, to have awareness.

St. Theophan the Recluse, in a message to a dying woman, writes: "You will not die. Your body will die, but you will over to a different world, being alive, remembering yourself and recognizing the whole world that surrounds you."

St. Dorotheos (6th century) summarizes the teaching of the early Fathers in this way: "For as the Fathers tell us, the souls of the dead remember everything that happened here -- thoughts, words, desires -- and nothing can be forgotten. But, as it says in the Psalm, 'In that day all their thoughts shall perish' (Psalm 145:5).

The thoughts he speaks of are those of this world, about houses and possessions, parents and children, and business transactions. All these things are destroyed immediately when the soul passes out of the body. But what he did against virtue or against his evil passions, he remembers and none of this is lost. In fact, the soul loses nothing that it did in the world but remembers everything at its exit from this body."

St. John Cassian (5th century) likewise teaches: "Souls after the separation from this body are not idle, do not remain without consciousness; this is proved by the Gospel parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:22-28). The souls of the dead do not lose their consciousness, they do not even lose their dispositions -- that is, hope and fear, joy and grief, and something of that which they expect for themselves at the Universal Judgment they begin already to foretaste."

Note 2

He who departs from this world experiences much consolation when he sees friendly people surrounding his dead body. Such a person discerns in his beloved friends' tears of pain their love and sincere dedication. The greatest earthly joy is undoubtedly the realization that we die honored and appreciated by all who knew us.

But just as at the hour of death the dead body is surrounded by relatives and friends, so also is the soul, which abandons the body and is directed towards its heavenly homeland, accompanied by the spiritual beings related to it.

The virtuous soul is surrounded by bright angels of light, while the sinful soul is surrounded by dark and evil beings, that is, the demons.

St. Basil The Great (4th century) explains it this way: "Let no one deceive you with empty words; for destruction will come suddenly upon you; it will come like a storm. A grim angel (i.e., a demon) will come to take and drag violently the soul that has been tied to sins; and your soul will turn toward here and will suffer silently, having already been excluded from the organ of mourning (the body). O how you will be troubled at the hour of death for yourself! How you will sigh!"

St. Macarius Of Egypt writes of this: "When you hear that there are rivers of dragons and mouths of lions (cf. Heb 11:33, Ps 22:21) and dark powers under the sky and burning fire (Jer 20:9) that crackles in the members of the body, you must know this: unless you receive the earnest of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; 5:5), at the hour when your soul is separated from the body, the evil demons hold fast to your soul and do not suffer you to rise up to heaven."

This same Father also teaches us: "When the soul abandons the body a certain great mystery is enacted. If the deceased has departed unrepentant, a host of demons and rejected angels and dark powers receive that soul and keep it with them. The completely opposite happens with those who have repented: for near the holy servants of God there are now angels and good spirits standing by, surrounding and protecting them, and when they depart from the body, the choir of angels receive their souls to themselves, to the pure aeon."

The champion of Orthodoxy against the Nestorian heresy, St. Cyril Of Alexandria likewise teaches: "When the soul is separated from the body it sees the fearful, wild, merciless and fierce demons standing by. The soul of the righteous is taken by the holy angels, passed through the air and is raised up."

St. Gregory The Dialogist writes: "One must reflect deeply on how frightful the hour of death will be for us, what terror the soul will then experience, what remembrance of all the evils, what forgetfulness of past happiness, what fear, and what apprehension of the Judge. Then the evil spirits will seek out in the departing soul its deeds; then they will present before its view the sins towards which they had disposed it, so as to draw their accomplice to torment. But why do we speak only of the sinful soul, when they come even to the chosen among the dying and seek out their own in them, if they have succeeded with them? Among men there was only One Who before His suffering fearlessly said: 'Hereafter I talk not much with you: For the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me (John 14:30)."

This truth is confirmed by various liturgical services. For example, in Small Compline we ask THE MOTHER OF GOD to "be merciful to me not only in this miserable life, but also at the time of my death; take care of my miserable soul and banish far from it the dark and sinister faces of the evil demons."

In a prayer of the Midnight Service of Saturday (addressed to THE SAVIOUR) we pray: "Master, be merciful to me and let not my soul see the dark and gloomy sight of the evil spirits, but let bright and joyous angels receive it."

Again, in another hymn to THE THEOTOKOS (from the Monday Matins service) we pray: "At the fearful hour of death free us from the horrible decision of the demons seeking to condemn us." Similar prayers, addressed to the Lord and to the Holy Angels, are found throughout the service for the Repose of the Dying.

Note 3

Here, St. John is simply repeating a teaching common to the Church. St. Macarius Of Alexandria (having received the teaching not from men but from an angel) explains: "When an offering (i.e., the Eucharist) is made in Church on the third day, the soul of the departed receives from its guardian angel relief from the sorrow it feels as a result of the separation from the body.

In the course of two days the soul is permitted to roam the earth, wherever it wills, in the company of the angels that are with it. Therefore, the soul loving the body, sometimes wanders about the house in which its body has been laid out, and thus spends two days like a bird seeking its nest.

But the virtuous soul goes about those places in which it was wont to do good deeds.

On the third day, He Who Himself rose from the dead on the third day, commands the Christian soul, in imitation of His Resurrection, to ascend to the Heavens to worship the God of all."

St. John Of Damascus vividly describes the state of the soul, parted from the body but still on earth, helpless to contact the loved ones whom it can see, in the Orthodox Funeral Service: "Woe is me! What manner of ordeal doth the soul endure when it is parted from the body! Alas! How many then are its tears, and there is none to show compassion! It raiseth its eyes to the angels; all unavailing is its prayer. It stretcheth out its hands to men, and findeth none to succor. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, meditating on the brevity of our life, let us beseech of Christ rest for him who hath departed hence, and for our souls great mercy."

St. Theophan, in writing to the brother of a dying woman, says: "Your sister will not die; the body dies, but the personality of the dying one remains. It only goes over to another order of life. It is not she whom they will put in the grave. She is in another place. She will be just as alive as you are now. In the first hours and days she will be around you. Only she will not say anything, and you won't be able to see her; but she will be right here. Have this in mind."

[Warren Bensinger]

Robert:

Could you please post the site address on that last post from Orthodox.net
Thank you.

warren t.s.

[Rose]

Greetings in Christ, Robert

Thank you very much for posting the references on the Afterlife. Our Holy Fathers have instructed us to meditate frequently on our death and the afterlife. I am truly grateful, Robert, as these quotes have opened my heart to the Fathers' meanings.

May the Lord grant you a Most Blessed Christmas.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Robert,

I see that you are an Anglican; could you please explain what the Anglican Church's teaching is on this subject? I await your good answer.

As I mentioned before, Vladika John's proper title is "St. John of San Francisco and Shanghai the Wonderworker," for that is how it was designated at his canonization, at which I was present.

Using his last name comes out of Father Herman's doing as he wished. although he attempted to tell his group the Holy Order of M.A.N.S. that Vladika was their "saint," because they, like him were misunderstood and persecuted, when in fact, they were understood completley, and were simply ignored by us, which for Fr. Herman was even worse.. Now, they no longer exist.

In the Russian Church Abroad, we lovingly call the holy saint "Vladika John," but in Divine Services, we use his full title. It is also proper to call him "St. John of San Francisco." Thank you

Fr. A.

[Robert Mahoney]

"Could you please post the site address on that last post from Orthodox.net
Thank you."

So sorry for the late reply.

I found it at

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/life-after-death-john-maximovitch.html

Robert

[Deiniol Clarke]

Dear Friend in Christ,

That is certainly not a teaching of the Orthodox Church. The truth is, nobody actually knows. You can draw your own conclusions from the Bible, but the traditional view is that you simply come before God at your death - either for judgement or for heaven - depending on the person's view of salvation!!

Yours in Christ,
Deiniol

[Janine]

Also, I have a question about the teaching of the "toll booths." This sounds to me like a form of legalism as encountered in indulgence: does anyone know about these teachings? Does Ephraim teach this?

And about the teachings to married people. If this is true it does not seem true even to Athonite spirituality, as I understand it, nor traditional views on marriage. Procreation is not the sole point of marriage for Orthodoxy -- rather marriage is the lay person's way to self-emptying; it is in "cleaving to one another" that lay-people learn about love, self-emptying, and relationship. Marriage is for this purpose, not solely for the purpose of procreation. And this too has been taught on Athos by respected Elders.

[Janine]

Here is the place to read the statement about "toll houses" and teachings on marriage:

Two troubling teachings reported - April 1, 2000 - By Archbishop Lazar Puhalo (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim11.html)

[Herman Blaydoe]

When you ask about the teaching of the toll booths, you do well to ask which teaching. There is NOT a concensus within the Church. Fr. Seraphim Rose made his teaching famous, but Metropolitan Heirotheos and several other very respected Orthodox theologians put a somewhat different spin on the subject. Therefore I find it very hard to say that the concept is heresy or outside accepted Orthodox Tradition.

As to marriage, the only authentic article I have come across from a source close to Fr. Ephraim was very much in line with what you have posted. Nowhere did it say that marriage was dirty or that sex between a married couple was evil. I'm still trying to find that article again, it was several years ago when I read it.

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Does 1 Peter 3:18-20 teach that the departed have a second chance to repent and declare true faith?

It seems that many of the early Church fathers supported the notion that each and every single soul in hades was released and redeemed by the Risen Lord:

Eusebius of Alexandria: "Christ will descend that in order that all, both on earth and in heaven and in hades, may obtain salvation from Him."

Saint Athanasius: "While the devil thought to kill one he is deprived of all .....cast out of hades, and sitting by the gates, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour."

Basil of Seleucia: "That which happened to the visible tomb (i.e. it was emptied upon His rising), the same happened to Hades the invisible."

M.F. Victorinus: "The Saviour descends into hades by that Passion of the Cross in order that He may set free every soul."

Dydimus (translated by, and therefore endorsed by, Saint Ambrose): "In the liberation of all no one remains a captive; at the time of the Lord's Passion he alone (the devil) was injured, who lost all the captives he was keeping."

St. Gregory of Nazianzus: "...until Christ loosed by His blood all who groan under Tartarean chains."

St. Gregory of Nazianzus: ".....all of whom (the dead) Thou shalt bring forth as Thy spoils from Hades."

St. Gregory of Nazianzus: "I believe Thou wilt bring forth from Hades as many mortals as it has imprisoned."

Ambrosiaster: "Christ snatched from hades all the devil lost, together with Christ, all whom he was keeping."

St. Jerome: "Our Lord descends....and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up."

St. Jerome: "The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man (i.e. the one from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man) in order to liberate the prisoners."

Caesarius of Arles (repeated in St. Jerome's works, and therefore endorsed by him): "The eternal night of hell is illuminated as Christ descends.....the bonds of the damned, torn asunder, fell away.......every cry of the groaing is still. The captive souls loosed from bonds go forth from hell, and the Apostle's words come true, 'In Jesus' Name every knee bends of things in heaven, and earth, and under the earth."

Epiphanius: "Christ, like a swift-winged hawk, snatched away all that He had from the beginning, from the devil and left him (i.e. the devil) deserted."

St. John Chrysostom: "While the devil imagined that he had got hold of Christ, he lost all, in fact, whom he was keeping."

St. John Chrysostom: "The fire of hell is extinguished, the sleepless worm dies.....those who were in hades are set free from the bonds of the devil."

St. Cyril of Alexandria: "(Christ spoiled Hades) and left the devil there solitary and deserted."

St. Cyril of Alexandria: "Christ, wandering down even to Hades, has emptied the dark, hidden, unseen treasuries."

St. Peter Chrysologus: "The rule of hell perishes.....and all obtain pardon."

Proclus of Constantinople: "Today Christ emptied the entire treasury of death."

Proclus of Constantinople: "All the dead, wondering at His Passion, cry for joy, 'We are healed by His stripes!'"

What implications does this have? Were there opposing viewpoints? What position would the Orthodox Church ratify on this subject?

In IC XC
-Athanasius

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Athanasius,

You have an interesting interpretation of 1 Peter 3:18-20. I would however not agree that this meens that there is a second chance at repentance in Hades.

"In Hades who shall give You thanks?" (Psalm 6:5b). St John Chrysostom uses this quote to explain that neither thanksgiving neither repentence will be heard by those that die in sin. However our prayers, the prayers of the living, do have the power to be heard by God.


Let us then not make wailings for the dead simply, but for those who have
died in sins. They deserve wailing; they deserve beating of the breast and
tears. For tell me what hope is there, when our sins accompany us Thither,
where there is no putting off sins? As long as they were here, perchance
there was great expectation that they would change, that they would
become better; but when they are gone to Hades, where nought can be
gained from repentance (for it is written, “In Sheol, who shall give Thee
thanks?”) (Psalm 6:5), are they not worthy of our lamentation? Let us wail
for those who depart hence in such sort; let us wail, I hinder you not; yet
in no unseemly way... (St John Chrysostom commentary on Philippians).

In Revelations St John clearly tells us for who Hades/Sheol is reserved for.


He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelations 21:8-8).

And St John Chrysostom also observes (I can't remember where) this point by stating that Hades was not created by God for humans but is made for Satan and his demons. Obviously Hades did not exist before the fall of the angels. This also means for those who live like demons and Satans. In Hebrew a satan (like the Gk diabolo) is somone who creates scandals and obstacles.

In Peace
KD

[Leandros]

Does 1 Peter 3:18-20 teach that the departed have a second chance to repent and declare true faith?
1 Peter 3:18-20:
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

From the Greek text (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18-20;&version=69;) we can see that the word "once" is the translation for the greek word "apax" which means "one time only/once only/once for all" (http://colet.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/chuck/woodhouse_pages.pl?page_num=573). This can also found in The KJV Bible With Strong's References (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/1_peter_3.shtml) by "clicking" over the word "once" at verses 3:18 & 3:20.

The word "once" has many meanings, as it is presented in this dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=once). In this passage it means the first translation of "one time only/once only/once for all".

This is the translation of the Greek word "apax" which can be found in The University of Chicago Library Woodhouse's English-Greek Dictionary (http://colet.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/chuck/woodhouse_pages.pl?page_num=573) and in Perseus/Tufts Lexicon (http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%28%2Fpac&bytepos=16826279&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057)

So the translation of the passage is:

1 Peter 3:18-20:
"For Christ also hath "once only" suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also (once only) he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when "once only" the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

From this passage, St Peter does not teach "that the departed have a second chance to repent and declare true faith". Not at all.

On the contrary, St Peter's teaching is of "one time only/once only/once for all" opportunity.

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dearest to Christ Kosmas Damianides,

Thank you for your answer. With regards to St John Chrysostom, he also states in relation to Christ's ministry in hades:


"While the devil imagined that he had got hold of Christ, he lost all, in fact, whom he was keeping."

My question is, how does one interpret this? When St John Chrysostom spoke of the inability to repent after death as you have pointed out, was he thus only speaking of us living in the post-Crucifixion age? If not, then how does one understand the fact that *all* from hades were released, with no contrast being made between Jew or gentile, or the righteous and the unrighteous?

The only patristic quotations that I have come across so far which specificy that it was the righteous Old Testament saints who died in hope of the ressurection in addition to the gentiles who were righteous according to their philosophies, who were the object of Christ's redemptive ministry, are those from St Clement of Alexandria, Iraneous, Hippolytus, and Justin Martyr; however in light of the all the quotations I have listed in my first post, they are by no means the majority.

In IC XC
-Athanasius

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dearest to Christ leandros,

Peace and blessings to you:

Thank you for you answer, however, I wish to understand how you would interpret the patristic quotations listed in my first post, which imply that Christ's redemptive ministry was extended to all those who were in hades, and hence implicitly including those, who in living an unrepentant life died in their sins. Were only those who died prior to the Crucifixion given such an opportunity to repent, being confronted by, and given the most blatant testimony from the Risen Lord Himself?

Or does the Church prefer to ratify the interpretation of Clement of Alexandria, Iraneous, Hippolytus, and Justin Martyr on this issue, as I have explained in my response Kosmas?

In IC XC
-Athanasius

[Leandros]

Dear Athanasius and friends,

St Athanasius, the Great Bishop of Alexandria, in his work "On the Incarnation of the Word" (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-16.htm#P1830_678055) says:

"15. Thus the Word Condescended to Man’s Engrossment in Corporeal Things, by Even Taking a Body. All Man’s Superstitions He Met Halfway; Whether Men Were Inclined to Worship Nature, Man, Demons, or the Dead, He Shewed Himself Lord of All These.

For as a kind teacher who cares for His disciples, if some of them cannot profit by higher subjects, comes down to their level, and teaches them at any rate by simpler courses; so also did the Word of God. As Paul also says: “For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the word preached to save them that believe.” For seeing that men, having rejected the contemplation of God, and with their eyes downward, as though sunk in the deep, were seeking about for God in nature and in the world of sense, feigning gods for themselves of mortal men and demons; to this end the loving and general Saviour of all, the Word of God, takes to Himself a body, and as Man walks among men and meets the senses of all men half-way , to the end, I say, that they who think that God is corporeal may from what the Lord effects by His body perceive the truth, and through Him recognize51 the Father. So, men as they were, and human in all their thoughts, on whatever objects they fixed their senses, there they saw themselves met half way, and taught the truth from every side.

For if they looked with awe upon the Creation, yet they saw how she confessed Christ as Lord; or if their mind was swayed toward men, so as to think them gods, yet from the Saviour’s works, supposing they compared them, the Saviour alone among men appeared Son of God; for there were no such works done among the rest as have been done by the Word of God. Or if they were biassed toward evil spirits, even, yet seeing them cast out by the Word, they were to know that He alone, the Word of God, was God, and that the spirits were none. Or if their mind had already sunk even to the dead, so as to worship heroes, and the gods spoken of in the poets, yet, seeing the Saviour’s resurrection, they were to confess them to be false gods, and that the Lord alone is true, the Word of the Father, that was Lord even of death.

For this cause He was both born and appeared as Man, and died, and rose again, dulling and casting into the shade the works of all former men by His own, that in whatever direction the bias of men might be, from thence He might recall them, and teach them of His own true Father, as He Himself says: “I came to save and to find that which was lost.”

16. He Came Then to Attract Man’s Sense Bound Attention to Himself as Man, and So to Lead Him on to Know Him as God.

For men’s mind having finally fallen to things of sense, the Word disguised Himself by appearing in a body, that He might, as Man, transfer men to Himself, and centre their senses on Himself, and, men seeing Him thenceforth as Man, persuade them by the works He did that He is not Man only, but also God, and the Word and Wisdom of the true God. This, too, is what Paul means to point out when he says: “That ye being rooted and grounded in love, may be strong to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length, and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God.” (Eph. iii. 18). For by the Word revealing Himself everywhere, both above and beneath, and in the depth and in the breadth—above, in the creation; beneath, in becoming man; in the depth, in Hades; and in the breadth, in the world—all things have been filled with the knowledge of God. Now for this cause, also, He did not immediately upon His coming accomplish His sacrifice on behalf of all, by offering His body to death and raising it again, for by this means He would have made Himself invisible. But He made Himself visible enough by what He did, abiding in it, and doing such works, and shewing such signs, as made Him known no longer as Man, but as God the Word. For by His becoming Man, the Saviour was to accomplish both works of love; first, in putting away death from us and renewing us again; secondly, being unseen and invisible, in manifesting and making Himself known by His works to be the Word of the Father, and the Ruler and King of the universe.

...

27. The Change Wrought by the Cross in the Relation of Death to Man.

For that death is destroyed, and that the Cross is become the victory over it, and that it has no more power but is verily dead, this is no small proof, or rather an evident warrant, that it is despised by all Christ’s disciples, and that they all take the aggressive against it and no longer fear it; but by the sign of the Cross and by faith in Christ tread it down as dead. For of old, before the divine sojourn of the Saviour took place, even to the saints death was terrible, and all wept for the dead as though they perished. But now that the Saviour has raised His body, death is no longer terrible; for all who believe in Christ tread him under as nought, and choose rather to die than to deny their faith in Christ. For they verily know that when they die they are not destroyed, but actually live, and become incorruptible through the Resurrection. And that devil that once maliciously exulted in death, now that its pains were loosed, remained the only one truly dead. And a proof of this is, that before men believe Christ, they see in death an object of terror, and play the coward before him. But when they are gone over to Christ’s faith and teaching, their contempt for death is so great that they even eagerly rush upon it, and become witnesses for the Resurrection the Saviour has accomplished against it. For while still tender in years they make haste to die, and not men only, but women also, exercise themselves by bodily discipline against it. So weak has he become, that even women who were formerly deceived by him, now mock at him as dead and paralyzed. For as when a tyrant has been defeated by a real king, and bound hand and foot, then all that pass by laugh him to scorn, buffeting and reviling him, no longer fearing his fury and barbarity, because of the king who has conquered him; so also, death having been conquered and exposed by the Saviour on the Cross, and bound hand and foot, all they who are in Christ, as they pass by, trample on him, and witnessing to Christ scoff at death, jesting at him, and saying what has been written against him of old: “O death , where is thy victory? O grave, where is thy sting.”

...

45. Thus Once Again [b]Every Part of Creation Manifests the Glory of God. Nature, the Witness to Her Creator, Yields (by Miracles) a Second Testimony to God Incarnate. The Witness of Nature, Perverted by Man’s Sin, Was Thus Forced Back to Truth. If These Reasons Suffice Not, Let the Greeks Look at Facts.

Consistently, therefore, the Word of God took a body and has made use of a human instrument, in order to quicken the body also, and as He is known in creation by His works so to work in man as well, and to shew Himself everywhere, leaving nothing void of His own divinity, and of the knowledge of Him. For I resume, and repeat what I said before, that the Saviour did this in order that, as He fills all things on all sides by His presence, so also He might fill all things with the knowledge of Him, as the divine Scripture also says: “The whole earth was filled with the knowledge of the Lord.” For if a man will but look up to heaven, he sees its Order, or if he cannot raise his face to heaven, but only to man, he sees His power, beyond comparison with that of men, shewn by His works, and learns that He alone among men is God the Word. Or if a man is gone astray among demons, and is in fear of them, he may see this man drive them out, and make up his mind that He is their Master. Or if a man has sunk to the waters, and thinks that they are God,-as the Egyptians, for instance, reverence the water, —he may see its nature changed by Him,and learn that the Lord is Creator of the waters. But if a man is gone down even to Hades, and stands in awe of the heroes who have descended thither, regarding them as gods, yet he may see the fact of Christ’s Resurrection and victory over death, and infer that among them also Christ alone is true God and Lord. For the Lord touched all parts of creation, and freed and undeceived all of them from every illusion; as Paul says: “Having put off from Himself the principalities and the powers, He triumphed on the Cross :” that no one might by any possibility be any longer deceived, but everywhere might find the true Word of God. For thus man, shut in on every side, and beholding the divinity of the Word unfolded everywhere, that is, in heaven, in Hades, in man, upon earth, is no longer exposed to deceit concerning God, but is to worship Christ alone, and through Him come rightly to know the Father. By these arguments, then, on grounds of reason, the Gentiles in their turn will fairly be put to shame by us. But if they deem the arguments insufficient to shame them, let them be assured of what we are saying at any rate by facts obvious to the sight of all.


This is the answer to your question:

Christ visited Hades for the sake of all humanity, for every human that was alive and died before and after His death: so that "He fills all things on all sides by His presence" and so that even dead people of all times "may see the fact of Christ’s Resurrection and victory over death". It is not a question of saving the pro-Jesus dead humans or a question of opportunity of salvation. It is an ontological deification of "death" as a human way of "being" in non existence (this is an ontological paradox) by the Presence of Christ as Son of God even in the "place" where human existence is dissolved. The presence of the relation of Son with His father into "hades" broke its gates because its kingdom of "no-relations" was conquered by THE RELATION. Christ as absent nature was "present" in "hades" like all dead humans. This "presence" of absence in its inability to participate in relation with beings, who are actually ontological present, is the kingdom of death of ontology that is named "hades". Inside “hades” the absence of Christ as a human “way of being”/hypostasis/person continued to exist in being the Son of the Father. For every other human being that entered "hades" their "way of being"/hypostasis/person no longer existed. They could not "say" 'I am the son of my father'; having their “way of being” dissolved in death they could merely "say": “I was the son of my Father”. But Christ in "hades" being absent and dissolved as a human “way of being” He could say 'I AM THE SON OF MY FATHER', because there was no distinction between His human “way of being” and His Divine “way of being”. The presence of His Divine Sonship was identical with the absence of His human Sonship. Death was defeated by death.

Death as the death of “way of being in relation with otherness” was defeated by Christ’s human death of His “way of being in relation with his Father”. His human death was real. Before His death, on the Cross, He said “Father why have you abandoned Me?” This is what “hades” was before Christ’s resurrection, the destruction of personal Relations, the destruction of otherness. Christ's personal Relation with His Father, His Sonship, was not destroyed in His real human death . Death had no power over His way of being the Son of His Father. Of course He died and He was a dead like every other human dead. But the power of death to destroy Relations had no power over His relation with His Father, because His human Sonship is an uncreated Relation with His Father- in being the Son, the second Person of Holy Trinity. Christ continued to be related as Son of His Father after His death. This was not the relation of a ghost. But it was the same relation that was initiated by Christ’s incarnation in His Virgin Mother's womb. It was the same Relation that was before time in the Life of Holy Trinity and after His human death was ontologically present as a human way of being absent/dead with an uncreated ontological way of Sonship relation with His Father. This is greatest mystery of Christ's Incarnation. As St Athanasius says: "For by His becoming Man, the Saviour was to accomplish both works of love; first, in putting away death from us and renewing us again; secondly, being unseen and invisible, in manifesting and making Himself known by His works to be the Word of the Father, and the Ruler and King of the universe".His resurrection was the realization of His way of being the Son of the Father, beyond human death. His resurrection is not the revitalization of a dead body. His resurrection is the realization of His human way of being Son of God in the last natural status of being human: being dead. As St Athanasius says: Thus,Once Again Every Part of Creation Manifests the Glory of God

Christ - in being SELF-EXISTENCE beyond existence as a Son generated before time from His Father - gave ontological meaning in human death, in being dead as human and in being at the same time in His Sonship Personal relation with His Father in both human and divine way of being (dead according to His human nature and SELF-LIFE according to His divine nature). In this way, the human hypostasis, the human way of being in personal existence, was liberated from the yoke of ontological necessity of "being self" and it went beyond "being self" to conquer the freedom of "being in relation with God" according to his pleasure. This paradox relation of "being in a natural self absence" in a relation with God is the salvation from "not being"/"death of nature"/"death of hypostasis". St Athanasius reminds the words of St Paul:"Having put off from Himself the principalities and the powers, He triumphed on the Cross" (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col%202:15;&version=9;)

Before Christ's death and resurrection, "hades" was "flourishing" and "sweet" and it had an ontological meaning of non-existence, as dead humans were captured in non-existence by its power.

After Christ's death and resurrection, "hades" became "withered" and “embittered”, says St Chrysostom. Hades became powerless, and all dead humans are being restored in Christ, released from non self-existence way of being to ontological way of being in relation with God. This is the restoration of human nature that took place in Christ's death, visit of hades and resurrection. This happened for all humans both before and after Jesus. Christ in His death created the ontology of "non existence" as a way of being in relation with EXISTENCE, as a way of being in relation with the Holy Trinity Life.

St Athanasius says:"For that death is destroyed, and that the Cross is become the victory over it, and that it has no more power but is verily dead, this is no small proof, or rather an evident warrant, that it is despised by all Christ’s disciples, and that they all take the aggressive against it and no longer fear it; but by the sign of the Cross and by faith in Christ tread it down as dead. For of old, before the divine sojourn of the Saviour took place, even to the saints death was terrible, and all wept for the dead as though they perished. But now that the Saviour has raised His body, death is no longer terrible..For they verily know that when they die they are not destroyed, but actually [begin to] live, and become incorruptible through the Resurrection. And that devil that once maliciously exulted in death, now that its pains were loosed, remained the only one truly dead"

“hades” is not hell. The abolition of hades is not the destruction of hell. The destruction of hades is the restoration of our mortal nature to immortality in Christ's resurrected natural humanity.

Salvation is something else. Salvation is our affirmation in being related with Him in a loving, honest, personal relation. Salvation is the "human way of being in an immortal relation with Christ". Salvation is the restoration of our mortal hypostasis/personhood to immortality in Christ's resurrected humanity as a whole, as His hypostasis in both His human/divine natures is united in eternal relation with His Father before His incarnation, after His incarnation, in His death and after His resurrection - before time. This is Heaven. St Athanasius says: "For thus man, shut in on every side, and beholding the divinity of the Word unfolded everywhere, that is, in heaven, in Hades, in man, upon earth, is no longer exposed to deceit concerning God, but is to worship Christ alone, and through Him come rightly to know the Father."

Hell is the human way of being without having relation with Christ. It’s a self isolation of being in the immortal Presence of Christ.

Immortality of nature is the destruction of "hades", as an ontological "non-existence", by the immortal Presence of Christ as His way of being in personal Relation with Father as His Son - even in the non-existence state of human nature (death).

Immortality of hypostasis/personhood is the way of being in an immortal relation with God.

Both of them are our salvation.

The natural salvation is a gift offered by God to everyone and it is ontologically accepted by everyone as a natural occurrence. In the second coming of Christ our bodies will also participate in this gift of incorruption.St Athanasius says: "So weak has he become (the hades), that even women who were formerly deceived by him, now mock at him as dead and paralyzed"

The personal/hypostatical salvation is also a gift offered by God to everyone. But, because this is a Relation with Him, it needs our free participation; it is a mutual generation of a personal immortal relationship – the immortality of relation, as well as our natural immortality, comes from the Immortality of God’s Presence.

In this context, the natural restoration is for everyone a natural self-transcendence, caused by the immortal Presence of Christ as Son of Father. The personal relation, that is called deification, is for those who accept His presence and are pleased by His presence,and it is caused by our presence in the Presence of eternal Glory of God. To be into and to see His Glory is our eternal Relation With Him.

Why then, the relation is offered once only and not twice? The relation with God is actually offered repeatedly at every second of eternity, but our natural restoration of eternally "being self" has the effect on otherness to become needless/useless, even if that otherness is God. Christ/God is of no use, if WE are immortal. Actually we need just His Presence, His love, His Providence and nothing more. All these precondition are found within OUR restored nature for free as His gifts. We think that immortality and eternity is our natural status. Why should we relate with Him in a relation that will add nothing more to our restored natures? This is a question that in the frame of immortality/incorruption gets a clear answer: we do not need to relate with Him, it is up to our pleasure to personally relate with Him or not to relate with Him.

Well, some humans just do not have the pleasure for such a relationship; this is their hell.

Some others are eager for such a relation; this is their paradise.

Difference between hell and paradise is not a difference of “being” in two distinct ways. The difference is that hell is a natural condition of eternal “being” without “way of being”/hypostasis/personhood and paradise is a natural condition of eternal “being” in a “way of being”/hypostasis/personhood that is shared with the way of Being of God. In both cases God is Present and He is the cause of our natural eternal “being” and our personal "way of being".

We can see this difference from our life on Earth: There is the condition of “being” out of Church. And the there is the “way of being” as Church members. To “be” is a common quality in the nature of all humans, but to “be a member of Church” is the result of pleasure of each human being separately.

God bless us, all.

(Message edited by lpap on 04 July, 2005)

[Owen Jones]

There is something odd about this thread, almost Pharisaical. One cannot address the Church's teachings on heaven and hell with a strictly historical/literal interpretation. It turns them into absurdities. No one has been to heaven or hell and returned to tell us about them, and God's revelation of these realities is mediated by our experiences of and in the world. So we must see them as analogical and symoblic of our experience of Christ. One overarching experience is that Christ is not just the Christ of believers only, but of all humanity and all creation. So how do we account for the non-believers or the people who have died prior to the resurrection? One cannot rationally condemn them to a state of total hopelessness. On the other hand, we must account for God's judgement as, in some sense, final. So there is a tension or paradox in-between God's salvation of all creation, and his justice and judgment. There must be room for the free will of humanity, but that is always in tension with God's prevenient Grace.

The only way of dealing with these questions is in and through the theological myth. There is no objective/historical/rationalistic way of dealing with them. When we turn Christ's descent into Hades into a strictly objective historical/literal event, we necessarily reduce our theological vision to a Pharisaical one in which we stand in judgement. Trying to answer the question for ourselves of whether or not people get one chance, or two chances, is an example of that. It's like the question of who sinned, the man or his parents, that he was born blind.

The Fathers saw His descent into Hades and his resurrection typologically, in conformity with Joseph's descent into Egypt, being thrown into prison with common criminals, and his ascent to the right hand of Pharoah where he prepares a place for his people. One cannot deal with theological issues such as heaven and hell apart from what the Fathers referred to as figures and types, or perhaps what a modernist would call myth.

[Theopesta]

I am not read all the messages just I speak about the opinion of repentance after death

heb9:27
"And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment"

those whom saved from hedes are those who dead before christ on hope of his redemeption and on this hope live practically a righteous life.

e.g:
* Soul the king not saved he not take a chance to repent after death or after redemption was acomplished by Jesus.

* in teaching of Jesus about the rich man and lazarus: Jesus not spake about any chance of repentance after death for the rich the chance in life only:

"(AKJV) But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented" luk 16: 25

[Theopesta]

Ps 88: 10- 13

(AKJV) Will you show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise you? Selah.
Shall your loving kindness be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction?
Shall your wonders be known in the dark? and your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Owen,

You have proved yourself to be more Orthodox than us in your thinking. For once I agree with you that we should not take a literalist view of Hell and Heaven. Nor should we be pharisaic in our judgements of who will be saved and who will not since they are subjects of God not ours. "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." Romans 14:4


For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in his Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Anonymous
We see from above that we Orthodox take a Cataphatic approach to Theology in the Orthodox Church even with the Mystery of death, but it seems that striving to understand what exactly happens after death has made us in this day and age a bit Apophatic in our approach to the subject of death.

I would however disagree with the suggestion that all we have is Jesus Christ as our revelation of death and that only Jesus has come back to life after death. Many including Lazarus are witnesses of what it is like to experience death, and I am sure they taught these experiences to those around them.

The first Bishop and Saint of Cyprus was Lazarus by the way.

Since Hell was not a literal "place", how do we account for the descent of Jesus into Hades? How do we account for the salvation of Adam and Eve? Is even Adam and Eve not to be taken literally? Are we perhaps confusing the temporal to the eternal? The Spiritual with the Material?

Obviously, Ghenna or Sheol or Hades or Hell is a very real "place" but should also be taken in a figurative way. Just as the metaphor Kingdom of Heaven is not a material Kingdom but a truly real spiritual Kingdom and a Mystery.

The emptying of Hades by the kerygma of Christ is again to be taken in a figurative sense. We therefore do not cease to be real creations of God after death. Just as the angels of God are creation we too will 'exist' and continue in Heaven as creations, yet as spiritual ones in different spiritual 'bodies'.

The doctrine of 'Apokatastasis' the purification and atonement of all is condemned by the Church as being an Origenist heresy. We firmly believe that those who are 'condemned' by God's Love will be those who refused God's love. However there is in God's Love a great mercy (which we should not misuse or take for granted). Apokatastasis though rejected by the Church is a debateable topic but it is not in our power to make up and accept such a doctrine. This hypothetical 'End' is up to God to decide not us.

Now Dear Athanasius Abdulah: the forgiveness of Sins is the conquest of death and vis a vis. So there is no two schools of thought on this subject as you are suggesting. ALL the fathers of the Church believed in the transforming power of the Resurrection, not only for humanity but for the entire creation. All the universe was transformed and Hades truly was made barren and emptied since the 'metaphysical' state of those who lived in this apostasy called Hades was also mysteriously transformed by the power of selfless Love once and for all by Christ's willing sacrifice of Himself. This material world and the Spiritual world were both transformed and renewed.

Please also read this link:
http://www.monachos.net/pascha/encyclical_archives/1999_serbia.shtml


Hades (ADES Gk. Beyond the West): The ruler of the underworld. or The world of the dead, ruled by Pluto and Persephone, located either underground or in the far west beyond the inhabited regions. It was separated from the land of the living by the rivers Styx [hateful], Lethe [forgetfulness], Acheron [woeful], Phlegethon [fiery], and Cocytus [wailing]. The newly arrived dead were ferried across the Styx by the avaricious old ferryman Charon, whom they paid with the coin that was placed in their mouths when they were buried. Unauthorized spirits who tried to enter or leave Hades were challenged by the fearful dog Cerberus. The honey cake that the Greeks buried with the dead was intended to quiet him. All the dead drank of the river of forgetfulness. The judges of the dead—Minos, Aeacus, and Rhadamanthus—assigned to each soul its appropriate abode. The virtuous and the heroic were rewarded in the Elysian fields; wrongdoers were sent to Tartarus; and most wandered as dull shadows among fields of asphodel.

[Theotokodoulos]

Glory to the Allholy Trinity!!++++

God bless you!! The teaching of the Toll-houses is absolute an orthodox teaching !! It is not only a theolgoumena!!

It belongs to the whole tradition of Holy Orthodoxy!! You can find the teaching: Holy Scripture Holy Fathers(from Origines,St.Athanasios the great,St.Anthonios .......Philokalie, Evergentinos) Prayers, Hymns and so on....

It means not that the Demons are juding us,but they try to catch our soul for the bad deeds we where doing on earth!!

In the Russian Orthodox Church MP,the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, the Serbian Orthodox Church( by St.Father Justin Popovic he added it to the Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, St. Nikolaj Velimirovic-Prolog from Ohrid) Bulgarian Orthodox Church see the Frescoes of Rila, on Mount Athos and so on......

In CHRIST,
Alexander

[Jack R.]

Peace, grace, blessings, and greetings to you in Christ, the Logos of the Father.

I am very perplexed by the teaching of the Rev. Father Thomas Hopko and am wondering if his teachings on immediate life after physical death are Orthodox.

Specifically, he teaches that not only do we not believe in the platonic ideas that the soul preexists the body and that the soul is entrapped in the body, but he denies completely that the soul can survive the death of the body and enter paradise, despite our Lord's teaching that this in fact happens as in the story of the rich man and Lazarus and despite the many sayings of the Fathers that tell of sightings of souls leaving bodies and being crowned with life IMMEDIATELY after death.
He states:

"Those who have been Baptised have died, raised and sealed with the life creating Spirit. They are literally raised from the dead and can not die, and death becomes the transfiguration or the passage of everlasting life in Christ, because Christ is risen. This is important, not because we have an immortal soul; our soul is as dead as our body is, as far as the Bible is concerned. We do not teach immortality of the soul in our Church; we are not Socrates or Plato, but we follow the Bible. Death is the enemy of the body and soul, and Christ raises us up in body and soul. It is because Christ is risen that we have hope over death, not because of any 'natural' teaching."

"We see it all in terms of the end and not some immortal soul that is out there floating around somewhere and we wonder where.

No, we see it all in terms of the final victory of Christ that is already anticipated by us on earth in the Church by our Baptism and Eucharist. Furthermore, when we die we leave the temporal and spatial conditions of the planet earth and enter the very presence of God anticipating already the age to come." http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/afterdeath.htm (http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/afterdeath.htm)

How do we leave the temporal and spatial conditions if we have not soul/spirit that departs the body????

1) THIS IS MIND BOGGLING Fr. Thomas Hopko states duriong his lecture on The Descent Of Jesus Into Hades
on April 30, 2008

"... we do not ever want to imagine the dead as disincarnate souls. Some of the great teachers of Christianity do that, even Metropolitan of Nafpaktos, Hierotheos, he does that. I must say honestly say I do not agree with him when he does that. The dead are simply completely and totally dead. And then when you are alive, you are completely and totally alive. And I believe that when Christ rose from the dead in His glorified body, He gave the glorified body to all those in the tombs immediately, that they enter into eternal life with Him. That is why when we glorify the saints we glorify them as completely and totally alive. When they appear to people they do not appear as disincarnate souls, they appear as people in their glorified bodies, with their risen bodies. They are clothed with the raised body of Jesus Christ. The relic of their physical body might still be in the tombs, and they are in the tombs until the last day when all the tombs will be empty and there will be no more cemeteries and no more death anymore at all. But the dead in Christ are already entering into that splendid glory of the age to come. That is how we relate to them and venerate them within the Orthodox Church."

WHEN in the last 2000 years did ANY of the FATHERS TEACH THIS?

It appears to me that Father Hopko does NOT believe in spirits/souls of the departed being able to servive outside of the body.

At time 1:26 of the video at the following link, Father Thomas claims that "somehow" you are immediately in the age to come, resurrected, supposedly (transported in time). He believes when the saints appear, they are appearing in their resurrected body. At 1:31 he states that it is "absurd" that disincarnate souls are what we are seeing when Saints make apparitions.
http://ancientfaith.com/specials/hopko_lectures/the_death_of_christ_and_our_death_in_him (http://ancientfaith.com/specials/hopko_lectures/the_death_of_christ_and_our_death_in_him)

Does this mean that Saints are going back in time to appear to us? Am I already physically dead and resurrected in the future kingdom?


3) In the following article he appreas to be equating "soul" with life as though when saying that the soul leaves the body, all is meant is that the life leaves the body. He seems to insist that eternal life is eternal biological life.

He says that that idea of saying that you have a soul that leaves your body is not the biblical teaching that it is Platonism: "'You have a spirit in you. You have a soul in you. And when you die, your body rots, but your soul goes off to contemplate eternal realities in some purely spiritually heavenly world.' That’s Platonism, basically, and even in some sense, that’s Hinduism and Buddhism, that the spiritual reality somehow remains and so on. But that’s not the Biblical teaching at all."

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_the_life/print (http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_the_life/print)

While Plato believed that souls are eternal, preexist the body, trapped in the body, then leaves the body to be free, he shares the idea of a soul leaving the body with Christianity which, according to the parabled of the rich man and Lazarus, there IS a soul that leaves the body and goes somewhere. Fr. Hopko seems to deny that there is a soul that leaves the body simply because plato had other wrong ideas about the soul.

I am confused and now confused and somewhat apprehesive of physical death. To my knowledge, all martyrs went bravely to their physical deaths believing that they will continue to be in the love of Christ as their spirit/soul departs the body to live conciously and immediately after death.

Although I am Coptic Orthodox, I often read works by Father Thomas Hopko as he is very precise and knowledgable about Orthodox Church history and Fathers. But on this issue he has confused me completely. It appears that many Eastern Orthodox Christians share similar teachings as he does.

Do we have souls/spirits that are sustained by God and grant us conciousness immediately after physical death or not, according to Orthodoxy?? If not, and what Fr. Thomas Hopko teaches is correct, then what is it in our nature that is created by God that allows us to have a presence in the immediate afterlife after physical death if we do not have conscious minds/souls that leave the body?
Please assist me as I am greatly troubled by this confusion. Do we have immediate coniousness after death according to the Eastern Orthodox understanding or are we immediately transported to the future resurrection?

[Herman Blaydoe]

A couple of things to keep in mind:

Fr. Thomas Hopko is not the end-all or be-all of Orthodox theology.
Chairos is different from chronos.
Herman