Calculating the number of the beast

[Kosmas Damianides]

In the Year 2000 in a newspaper entitled The Sunday Free Press a leader of the Orthodox Church explained that we as Orthodox should not become paranoid of the number 666 and that it should not be considered in a literal sense as many zealots perceive. "This is a new understanding introduced in the 70's." This was in response to the introduction of bar codes on products in the US.

He also said (remember the date was 9/7/2000) 5 years ago:


"The 666, according to Revelation of Ioannis (Ch. 13, vs. 18), is the number of the antichrist’s name. It is a number, in what it should correspond to the name of the antichrist. The letters of a name when added should give the sum 666. We should not forget that letters of the alphabet in Hebrew and in the Greek were also used as numbers. Eg. The letters in the name Venediktos as numbers (2+5+50+5+4+10+20+300+70+200) give the sum 666. Venediktos (Benedict) therefore may be the antichrist’s name." -- Metropolitan of Nikopolis Meletios. http://www.iospress.gr/ios2000/ios20000709b.htm

I found this very interesting that the Pope's name now is Benedict, and that it was chosen by himself. Not that i believe that he is the Antichrist by the way.

[Jill]

I was under the impression that Orthodoxy regards numerology as unacceptable and incompatible with the faith, along with palm-reading, tarot and other such forms of divination.

[leandros]

There is a huge pseudo-literature regarding the number 666 and barcode and credit cards and the internet (www=666 in Hebrew numbering, 666 is used in internet protocol that is applied in chat rooms all over the world) that was first introduced in some protestant churches in order to justify their marginal theories. These were eschatological protestant churches (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1803.cfm) that were in need of proof that the end of time is at hand. So they used the ignorance of people and their technophobia and they started to make a huge conspiracy theory that at one time has mislead many people to believe them. Unfortunately several orthodox people were also affected.

Now, as for the matter of the number of 666, there is no theological basis that barcodes, credit cards, the internet, civil IDs, are "the seal" that Apostle John refers in Apocalypse.

We must keep in our hearts that there will be images of anti-christ until he actually be in flesh. The "seal" of anti-christ will be his mark on mankind as a sign of power, not as a subconscious use of a hidden symbol.

There only two orthodox Saints that have annotated the book of Apocalypse systematically and they have defined its hidden symbolic meanings.

The first one was St. Andreas, Bishop of Caesarea in Capadocy (5th century). The second one was Arethas, also Bishop of Caesarea (in the end of 6th century). These two interpretations are the basis for any other orthodox translation since then.

According to their interpretation the name "666" means that Apostle John was instructed not to mention the real name of anti-christ by God, because he did not deserved to be mentioned as a creature with a name - being absolutely impersonal/faceless as a human being. So by their interpretation, it is vain to try to resolve its meaning. They say that the true meaning of the anti-christ's name will be literally: "deny". His seal will say: "I deny the maker of the heaven and earth, I deny the baptism, I deny Christian worship, and I believe in you anti-christ".

We should notice that "666" was mentioned as the name/number of anti-christ. In the original text of book of Apocalypse this name/number is calculated to be a human number written as a Greek number: ÷îò'

In the tradition of the Church the meaning of this number is that the anti-crist has a name that deletes the name of Christ. In Greek the name of Christ is ÷ñéóôoò. If we take this word and we cross it of by making a mark of a snake over it, by making the mark of Greek letter î, we take as a result, instead of the Greek word ÷ñéóôoò, the Greek word ÷ î ò that is calculated as the number 666 in Greek arithmetic semantics. It's like anti-christ will make an effort to sponge out entirely everything that reminds of Christ on Earth, and his name will be corresponding to this work of his.

We must have in our hearts that the text of Apocalypse is never used in liturgy. The content of Apocalypse is only pictured in graphic icons on the walls of churches. This is not to be taken in light heart. There is a reason for this omission of vocal reference to Apocalypse in the liturgy. Apocalypse has not only a transcendental meaning but it is also expressed in a transcendental language. There is no way to include this language in everyday normal use, not even at the time of worship.

Nevertheless, Apocalypse is not absent from the Orthodox worship, as the throne of the bishop in the back of the Altar, with the thrones from both sides, the Altar itself, and the Lamp on the altar are also in the Apocalypse (3:2-11,5:6-14,6:9-19). The presence of Holy Relics under the Altar and the candles over the Altar are also to be found in Apocalypse (5:9). The contrapuntal way of chant is also to be found in Apocalypse (4:8-11, 5:9, 6:9).

Let's examine the passage of "666" from the bible :

"Revelation 13:15-20
15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six."

It is clear that "the mark on the right hand or on the forehead" will be "either the name of the beast or the number of his name". So "the number" is "of his name".

By saying "for the number is that of a man", St. John refers both to the "numeric" value of the number of the name but also to the numerology significance that both Greeks and Jews at St. John's time period were giving to "language" and to "words". According to this context, names of people, or words that describe human and divine realities have a numerical significance that is corresponding to the true meaning of the concepts that the language/words represent.

According to Jewish point of view (http://jewishappleseed.org/apple/q-a.htm#what-numbers) : "Seventy in the Bible seems to be a number that symbolizes completeness and totality. When the Torah says that Jacob had seventy children, it seems to be saying that he was extremely prolific! The "seventy elders," is a theme which is repeated many times in the Torah. It seems to stand for the gathering of all the wisest people. The suffering of Tyre for seventy years is followed by its complete redemption; as the suffering is total, so will the redemption be total. When Jews study the Bible, they understand that they can read God's words on many different levels. On the simple level of the written word, numbers are just numbers. However, they are also free to look at numbers as symbols for specific ideas, like "judgement" and "totality." When they do this, it adds to their understanding and appreciation of the Holy words."

In this context St. John implies a specific significance in saying "for the number is that of a man". He implies that the number of the name of anti-christ will reveal his non-divine origin; it will reveal the singularity of his nature as a man's nature, in contrast to Christ's God-man nature. This "revelation" (because anti-christ will deceive even the faithful to bow to him) needs wisdom to be apprehended , not the mere calculation of the number!

[Matthew Panchisin]

We have discussed this subject in the past a bit.

[Vasilis Kirikos]

> I found and have posted the following article from the Net. > Apparently there were many pope Benedicts. I think that Saint John was > referring to the emperor who ruled Rome during his time, rather than > some future dignitary. > Vasilis There were a number of popes who chose the name Benedict. (Benedict X) was definitely an antipope, and one (Benedict V) /may/ be considered an antipope. Most of the popes named Benedict reigned in the Middle Ages. Following is a quick rundown of all the popes and antipopes named Benedict through the centuries, beginning with the undisputedly official popes of the Middle Ages (antipopes and possible antipopes are:

Benedict III - 855-858

There was some trouble with the third Benedict's election. The legates that were sent to Emperor Louis II the Bavarian for imperial confirmation were persuaded -- or coerced -- to throw their support behind Anastasius the Librarian, whom the emperor confirmed as pope. Benedict was thrown in jail, but in time his supporters won the day and his election was ratified. Benedict III may have met the future Alfred the Great when the prince visited Rome with his father, King Ethelwulf.

Benedict IV - 900-903

We know next to nothing about this Benedict , except that he excommunicated Baldwin II of Flanders for having Archbishop Fulk of Reims assassinated.

Benedict VI - 973-974

The pontificate of Benedict VI was unremarkable but for its tragic end, when he was imprisoned by a faction of the Roman nobility headed by Crescentius and, after two months, reportedly strangled.

Benedict VII - 974-983

The Roman faction that had killed Benedict VI had put the antipope Boniface VII on the throne, but Emperor Otto II sent his representative Count Sicco to handle matters. Sicco expelled Boniface and saw to it that an election was held, whereupon Benedict VII was chosen pope.

Benedict VIII - 1012-1024

The first of several popes from the powerful Tusculani family, Benedict VIII was imposed by that family on the papal chair by force. He crowned Henry II of Germany Holy Roman emperor in 1014.

Benedict IX - 1032-1044, 1045, 1047-1048

The last of the popes from the Tusculani family, Benedict IX was imposed on the chair at about age 20 by his father Alberic. His violence and debauchery provoked the Romans to revolt, and he fled for his life. Another pope, Sylvester III, was elected; but Benedict's brothers drove Sylvester out in 1045. Benedict did not remain pope long this time; possibly because he wanted to marry, he sold the papacy to his godfather, a priest, who became Gregory VI.

But then Benedict changed his mind and returned to Rome claiming to be the true pope, at the same time that Sylvester also returned to Rome, also claiming to be the rightful pope. Henry III of Germany stepped in and deposed all three popes, putting Clement II on the papal chair. After Clement's death, Benedict returned one last time and installed himself as pope in November of 1047. He lasted 8 months before he was driven out by order of Henry. He was never seen in Rome again, and is believed to have become a penitent at Grottaferrata until his death in 1055 or 1056.

Benedict XI - 1303-1304

Elected unanimously in October, this Benedict lived only until the following July. Most of his papacy dealt with the aftermath of his predecessor's unlawful arrest by Philip IV of France . He was beatified in the 18th century.

Benedict XII - 1334-1342

The third pope to reside at Avignon, where he built an expensive papal palace, Benedict XII was in the papal chair when the Hundred Years' War began. He attempted to reform the religious orders, but his strict rules were met with hostility, and his reforms were undone by later popes.

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[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I accept the point made many times on this forum about 'vain speculation' concerning this topic. Nevertheless there is a certain tension even within the text of the Apocalypse itself that helps explain why we never as Orthodox Christians completely cease from wanting to understand more fully what these things about the Last Times mean.

Christ tells us that not even the Son of Man knows the time of the End- by this the Holy Fathers inform us that this refers to His human nature since as God He certainly knows all things. So we rightfully take these words of Christ as a warning of sobriety for us all. In this sense the reference above to the possibility that these speculations can become a door to something really unbalanced is proper. Often these speculations are accompanied by obsessions and conspiracy theories that can lead to something very dangerous- delusion.

On the other hand I think that we should also acknowledge that Scripture & Christ Himself asks us to "read the signs" in the sense of understanding the spirit of the times we live in. And as Orthodox Christians we also read the sign of the times in connection with the larger Sign of the Time. In other words we try to connect an interpretation of present time with God's overall providence.

I think the 666 issue is a good example of this. One can easily see how it can lead to useless, harmful & even silly interpretation. But there it is after all openly in Scripture when it could just as well have been expressed in a much more vague or symbolic fashion. Why would the Scripture come so tantalizingly close to revealing something only to finally tell us that to go any further is vain speculation? After all the verse itself says, "18 Here is wisdom Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six." Does this really mean- "let us have no understanding because it is improper for Orthodox Christians to calculate the number of the beast."? I think then we can see that there is a delicate balance here between vain speculation and seeking to read the spirit of the times.

At its deepest level I think that such an understanding will always be craved for by the Christian because even though- yes- Christ does not know in His human nature- we still crave for participation and knowledge of the Divine nature. As an aspect of this participation we seek for a fuller understanding of the mystery of good & evil in human history and of how this will be resolved.

In the most immediate way where this focus becomes most proper is when it arises from the heart of the Christian who cries, "how much longer O Lord?!" This cry goes all through the history of the Church and is also foreshadowed in the groans of the Old Testament Jews in their trials. Many of us feel this especially when we see the distressing things around us. There are the temptations we have referred to on the other thread about the internet- the slightest awareness of what is now commonly being done to children throughout the world (imagine that there is something we now call 'the sex industry')- brings out the spontaneous cry, "how long O Lord, how long?" Who could not understand that this is an Orthodox cry and not wrong? At such times The End looks like an act of mercy on the Lord's part and it is likely there is wisdom in this insight. Likely The End is mostly about God's mercy.

So perhaps that is the secret of the Orthodox understanding about these things. We should know about the warnings about sobriety and trying to read God's mind. But we should also have a concern for our times which should be deeper than that of the world. The worst is when this concern is fuelled by frustration which it often is. (Remember when the Disciples ask Christ to burn up the sinners with fire). But there can be a fervent & at times even impatient desire for God's mercy to act on this earth springing from compassion. "How long O Lord, how long?"

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kosmas Damianides]

I tend to agree with all of you.

Revelations has always been a sensitive issue in the Orthodox Church. The Holy Fathers practiced great caution with the interpretation of this book. I think that's enough for us to know that we should use this book for edification and not scaring ourselves into believing.

With Love
Kosmas

[Antonios Spartan]

Maranatha!!

my two cents,
Antonios

[Kosmas Damianides]

Mar`a`nath´a
n. 1. "Our Lord cometh;" - an expression used by St. Paul at the conclusion of his first Epistle to the Corinthians (xvi. 22).

A combination of the two Hebrew words maran and atha. Maranatha means "Our Lord is coming". It was first used as a greeting between early Christians.

[Effie Ganatsios]

These are the words of Elder Paisios taken from his biography (1994). I got this excerpt from a Russian orthodox site and it’s a translation from the Russian translation of the Greek original. The wording is quite accurate if I remember correctly - without looking up my Greek copy.

“Two thousand years ago it was written in the Book of Revelations that people will be marked with the number '666'. As Holy Scripture says, the ancient Hebrews laid a tax on the peoples they conquered in various wars. The yearly tax was equal to 666 talents of gold. (3 Kings 10:14, 2 Chronicles 9:13.) Today, in order to subjugate the whole world they'll once again introduce the old tax number linked to their glorious past. That is, '666' is the number of mammon.

Everything is going as planned. They put the number a long time ago on credit cards. As a result, he who is not marked with the number '666' will be unable to buy, sell, get a loan, or find work.

Providence tells me that the Antichrist wants to subjugate the world using this system. It will be foisted upon people with the help of the mechanisms which control the world economy, for only those who receive the mark, an image with the number '666', will be able to take part in economic life.

The mark will be an image which will first be placed on all products, and then people will be compelled to wear it on their hand or forehead. Little by little, after the introduction of ID cards with the three sixes, after the creation of a personal dossier, they'll use cunning to introduce the mark.

In Brussels a whole palace with three sixes has been built to house a central computer. This computer can keep track of billions of people. And we Orthodox are resisting this because we don't want the Antichrist and we don't want dictatorship either.
"The most we can suffer is martyrdom."

There will be three and a half hard years. Those who don't agree with the system will have a rough time. They'll constantly be trying to imprison them, using any pretext they can find. They won't torture anyone, but without the mark it will simply be impossible for a person to live. "You're suffering without the mark", they'll say. "And if you had just accepted it you would have had no difficulties."

For this reason, by learning to life a simple, moderate life here and now you'll be able to get through those years. By getting a little bit of land, raising a little wheat and some potatoes, planting some olive trees, and keeping animals of some sort, a goat or chickens, the Christian will be able to feed his family. Stockpiling is of little use: Food doesn't keep for long before spoiling.

But these oppressions will not last for long: three, three and a half years. For the sake of the chosen the days will be hastened. God won't leave a person without help. Tomorrow thunder will strike, and the brief dictatorship of the Antichrist-satan will come. Then Christ will intervene, will give the whole anti-Christian system a good shaking up. He'll trample upon evil and turn everything to good use in the end.

- And if someone receives the mark unknowingly?

It'd be better to say "uncaringly". How can one be unknowing, when everything is crystal clear? And if a person doesn't know, then he should become interested and find out. By accepting the mark, even unknowingly, a person loses Divine Grace and gives himself up to demonic influence. When a priest immerses the infant in the baptismal font, the infant receives the Holy Spirit without knowing it, and Divine Grace begins to abide in him.
Some people say: "What's destined by God to be will be. What business is it of ours?"
They can say whatever they want, but in reality it's not like that! Unfortunately, some modern priests diaper their flock like infants, to keep them from getting upset. "What's going on today isn't important", they say. "Don't be alarmed. All you need is to have faith in your hearts." Or they scold: "Don't speak on that topic, about ID cards or the mark of the beast. It will just upset people." If they were to say instead: "Let's try to live more spiritually, to be nearer to Christ and not to be afraid of anything. You see, the most we can suffer is martyrdom," then they'd at least be preparing their flock for the coming tribulations. “

Elder Paisios was certainly unafraid to speak his mind. He didn't care if the things he said sounded unreal or whether some would think they were the words of a fanatic. He was so close to God that he was unafraid of the world.

Effie

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Sister in Christ Effie,

The blessed Geronda Paisios, who was a hermit on the Holy Mountain (you said) is stating what was on his mind, however what he is saying is not different from what many have been thinking about before. Although his words sound prophetic, he is just re-affirming what many have been worried about for many years.

Most of us all know the evils of the materialistic world which exist in their many different forms. St Antony the Great already warned us of these traps and snares of the devil.

However, if we search the Holy Scripture, we will see that the least of our worries should be the end of the world. The greatest of our worries according to Holy Scripture is living a Christian life. The least of our worries should be trying to figure out - "who is going to be the Antichrist?" or - "when is Jesus going to come?"

But don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that what Geronda Paisios said is true and we should take what he has said for our own spiritual edification.

This is not different from what happened in the not so distant past. During WW2 Hitler used IBM computers to store information of German citizens in order to filter out the Jews and later exterminate them.

Did you know that there were pushes by Sony Corp. to introduce a computer chip which would become part of and function as an extra feature to the human brain, and would also be able to read your brain? This was to be part of a project to automate the world. All you would have to do would be to think something to happen and it would, like opening the fridge or starting your car etc. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4396387.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3488

Fears that this could be grossly misused initially ceased this project, however now it seems it is on again!!! Plus other chips are known to already be placed inside pet animals and also children VIP's (ie the royal family) to keep track of them.

But did you know we are also being "spied on"? Did you know your own mobile phone for instance can be used to track you down and trace your every step, as long as you have your phone with you? Even your use of the computer on the internet?

Your name and details are already on a database as soon as you have a bank account, phone account, water, drivers licence, etc,.?

Having said all this I believe that the Saints of the Church were not naive nor stupid when they refrained from reading too deeply into this very important book of the Bible. The Holy Fathers of the Orthodox Church were not cowards when they refused using this book during the Holy Liturgy and other services. They had their reasons and we should trust that they had our best interests in mind.

The best advice a priest can give us is not "Beware the world is out to get you!" or "Watch out here comes the Antichrist!" These are childish things. The Orthodox Church doesn't use these scare tactics as other denominations have in the past.

Do you know what the best advice a priest can give us is? "Have Christ always before you and follow Him." and when we fall into temptation or sins we should say "Get behind me Satan!" and continue our "journey" -- always repent and confess our sins.

Paisios said that the priest should say that the worst that we could suffer is martyrdom, this is true, but I would also add that if we are true Christians we ought to be constant martyrs, and constant witnesses of Christ. We should die to ourselves each day and be "born again each day" through our repentance.

May the Blessed Geronda Paisios (the great optimist) Rest in Peace,

In ICXC

Kosmas

[Elias Young]

When I visited the Holy Mountain in the Nov/Feb of 1998-99 I came a cross a mimeographed copy of the full text of Geronda Paisios words re: the "666". It was in Greek so I did not understand any of the words. But I gratefully took one of the copies which had been laid out on a table in the guest wing of the Monastery of Xeropotamou.

I later took the mimeograph to St. Anthony's Monastery in AZ for inclusion in their library. While there I was told by someone that Elder Paisios had gotten much of his information from a small, semi-tractarian book written some time in the 1980's by a Protestant evangelist. It suddenly occurred to me that I'd seen this book in a used bookstore just before going to Mt. Athos. I was quietly amazed.

The book is written in semi-technical jargon, chiefly addressing the product bar codes and the "666" inserted in each bar code as it has been applied to most products we buy in our culture. The author also made comments about the possibility of these types of "tattoos" being implemented at some point, placed either on the hands or foreheads of world citizenry.

I think what Kosmos said may be the case here in that Elder Paisios was constantly encouraging Orthodox faithful to "take what he (Elder Paisios) has said for our own spiritual edification." From what I have read by and about him, he was not a sensationalist but sought to use every means by which he could communicate Christ and awaken souls to the urgent reality of knowing Him before we depart this life.

Any one of us could be living in "our last day" in this world. Are we ready to meet Him in the next?

elias

***

Kosmos wrote:

The blessed Geronda Paisios, who was a hermit on the Holy Mountain (you said) is stating what was on his mind, however what he is saying is not different from what many have been thinking about before. Although his words sound prophetic, he is just re-affirming what many have been worried about for many years.

But don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that what Geronda Paisios said is true and we should take what he has said for our spiritual edification.

Paisios said that the priest should say that the worst that we could suffer is martyrdom, this is true...

May the Blessed Geronda Paisios (the great optimist) Rest in Peace...

[leandros]

Dear friends,

I have some books that have been written by spiritual children of St Paisius and a book of an anthology of some of his letters addressed to laymen that asked for his advice.

I also know several people that have met him in person. Actually, a theologian who is the moderator of fortnightly meetings, providing theological tutoring for a men's group in our parish, was a spiritual child of St Paisius since his youth, and he is referring to St Paisius teachings very often.

According to this man, some of the books that have been published of St Paisius failed to express his Spirit. The most authendic books, are the books which are published by the Abbey of Souroti, which has the blessing according to the will of the St Paisius to administer his spiritual legacy.

We must have in our heart that St Paisius was an uneducated man, who received the Christian wisdom of the desert, as an eremite in his hermitage at Mount Athos.

He had no experience of what a computer is, or of technology. He was living an isolated life in Mount Athos and for the last period of his life he stayed in Abbey of Souroti, because he had health problems - cancer - and he had to stay in a place closer to a hospital. He was a man with a simple life and with a simple, almost childish simpleness attitude.

He was forced to leave his hermitage from been taken ill, and he was brought into a hospital where he was treated with chemotherapy after he was diagnosed having cancer. After some treatment has been given to him, he said in all his childish frankness: "I was hearing of chemo-therapy and I was thinking that it would have been a juice-therapy (in Greek the word chemo means juice), I thought that they are giving to cancer patients a medicine of natural juice, how should I know? Now I realize what a discomfort it is."

Such a pure and innocent person he was. He was a genuine saint of Christian Orthodoxy.

So, in order to realize the actual meaning of his teachings we must understand the true context. If we take the teachings out of the context we fail to listen to his spirit.

Elder Paisius counselled once: "We ought always to be careful and be in constant hesitation about whether things are really as we think. For when someone is constantly occupied with his thoughts and trusts in them, the devil will manage things in such a way that he will make the man evil, even if by nature he was good.

"The ancient fathers did not trust their thoughts at all, but even in the smallest things, when they had to give an answer, they addressed the matter in their prayer, joining to it fasting, in order in some way to 'force' Divine Grace to inform them what the right answer according to God was. And when they received the 'information', they gave the answer.

"Today I observe that even with great matters, when someone asks, before he has even had the time to complete his question, we interrupt him and answer him. This shows that not only do we not seek enlightenment from the Grace of God, but we do not even judge with the reason God gave us. On the contrary, whatever our thoughts suggest to us, immediately, without hesitation, we trust it and consent to it, often with disastrous results.

"Almost all of us view thoughts as being something simple and natural, and that is why we naively trust them. However, we should neither trust them nor accept them.

"Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside your head and permit them to land!"

As for his teachings of "666", they are not to understand as prophesies of a saint man, but as wise advices from a saint man who gives answers about realities that have been presented to whim by other people.

St Paisius is responsible for the wise and inspired advices. Someone else is responsible for the truth of the realities in case - those that introduced them in the first place.

St Paisius is not making a prophetic announcement of things of the feature. He is giving an Orthodox answer to realities that has been presented to him by other people. He has no personal knowledge or experiences of these realities, but in case a totalitarian system is presented to him he is responding in the framework of Orthodox tradition for personal and social freedom of rejecting such realities as evil and by presenting that Christ's coming is at hand, as a the testimony that He will never abandon us.

Such was also the case when people presented the reality of the World War II to hermits in the desert of Mount Athos, during the time of war. They had no experience of the Totalitarian war but they responded in the same Spirit of St Paisius: evil will not prevail; it may win for a short time, but it will be defeated, because Christ is with us.

This is also the context of the answer that St Paisius gave over the issue of "666": "God is with us, understand all ye nations and submit yourselves, for God is with us"

Every Orthodox chant this hymn at Christmas time, while remembering the prophecy of Isaiah, who told us that this child is "to be called the Angel of Great Counsel, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Ruler, Prince of Peace. . . and of his peace there will be no end. . . The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light. To those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, a light had risen." Hope has come for us! God Himself is with us.

This is the context of the teaching of St Paisius and not of future-telling.

[leandros]

Elder Paisius is the monk with the white beard at the right side.

PHOTO (http://www.rel.gr/photo/albums/userpics/10001/pais.jpg)

http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/20204.jpg

[Effie Ganatsios]

My biography of Gerontas Paisios is by Ieromonk Isaac and has been published by the Karyes monastery, Mth. Athos. 2004.

The above anecdote concerning his cancer treatment is not included in this book but one very revealing conversation is. The doctor who was treating him - one of the best oncologists in Greece - was greatly troubled about whether what he was doing was right i.e.treating cancer patients with chemicals (because of all the suffering involved). The gerondas was very gentle with him and told him that everything was being done as it should be. That he was earning his salary and not to worry. He also told him that in the future - i.e. after the Gerondas' death - whenever the doctor needed him, he would be there.

It was only after the intervention of the Patriarch of Constantinople that he agreed to have medical tests - and after a period of chemothery he told his doctors that he had decided that it was time that they obeyed (as he had obeyed the Patriarch) and stop the treatment. He told them that the day before he had tried to kneel to pray and couldn't because of the weakness the treatments were causing him. When asked why he didn't pray and heal himself as the faithful had such need of him, he replied " What? And try and fool God? It (the cancer) was what I asked of God"

Something else that I remember is that he said that the spiritual benefits he derived from his illness were much greater than all the ascetic exercises he had done as a monk throughout his life. !!!

Did Gerondas Paisios get the above (concerning 666) from a Protestant pamphlet? It seems very unlikely. If his biography is ever translated into English, please read it. You will see that this man might have been thought to have been "naive" but believing in God and living a simple life - a life that had been pared down to bare essentials - does not mean that he did not know what was happening in the world. He made quite a few statements concerning politics - as I said he wasn't afraid to speak his mind.

We usually associate simplicity with naivety but Christ told us that we should become as young children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And one of the qualities of those that dedicate themselves truly to God is this simplicity of character.

Perhaps people like Gerondas Paisios see things differently from us. We like to think of ourselves as intelligent people of the world and that advice that simple people like the Gerondas give us might be just a little too "quaint" and that we know more than this little monk on Mt. Athos could every know. I know that I found his words concerning 666 to be a little far-fetched. But we should also acknowledge that we have been conditioned by years of media manipulation - TV and newspapers mainly - and have more than a touch of servility and adherence to the ideas that our elected governments want to pass on to us.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Sorry. In my message I sound a little like a conspiracy fanatic. And my words came out harsher than I intended them to.

What I meant was that we needn't believe everything we are told and that we should pray and always go to the source of the information we are receiving. Gerondas Paisios was full of wisdom - is it correct to pick and choose what we want from his sayings. Of course, as we have already mentioned in another thread no man is infallible and this includes the Gerondas.

I wish I had time to go through his biography and find and post all the wonderful and very wise things he has said. As I couldn't even find the 666 reference that I posted from the RCO site (had a quick look through the book this morning) I will just leave things the way they are.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

It is said that when Christ preached about partaking of His Body & Blood (John 6) "many turned away." This was from hardness of heart.

There are other things though which are difficult for us to understand. But this doesn't mean that we have to reject such things. We just let them sit. Who knows- maybe at a future time we will understand more. Isn't this one of the main points about what 666 means? Now we see through a glass darkly perhaps understanding very little. But a time will come when we do see. Maybe in some strange way this is the 'correct interpretaion' of 666 for now. It indicates something real which we do not understand. It has a name but we do not know its significance.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Elias Young]

Dear Effie:

Yes, I have not read your newest biography of Elder Paisios but when in Greece (1999) I did acquire an English version of the perhaps simple biography Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain by Priestmonk Christodoulos written in 1998.

In this book Fr Christodoulos says that the Elder did at one time speak to him re: the 666 and mentions on page 91 of the book that the elder "showed me the book The New Money System 666 written by an American woman, M.S. Relfe." Apparently Dr. Mary Stewart Relfe published this book in 1982 via a book press in Montgomery, Alabama.

Here below may be a link to an interview with the Elder where he mentions the title of this small book by the American fundamentalist evangelical woman.

www2.cytanet.com.cy/gogreek/paisios.htm (http://www.monachos.net/forum/www2.cytanet.com.cy/gogreek/paisios.htm)

There are an abundance of sources on the internet which address her at the time revolutionary theories. But now, over 20 years later, these ideas have found their way into our common language.

Link (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=RNWE%2CRNWE%3A2004-17%2CRNWE%3Aen&q=the+new+money+system+mary+stewart+Relfe&btnG=Search)

elias