State of a man in gehenna

[Eugene]

Dear friends,

This question came up from a discussion with my friends. The question is - what is a spiritual state of a man in gehenna after the Dread Judgement? We had two different opinions (in fact there may be other possibilities):

1. A soul gets stuck in an unrepented state of pride for eternity. The reason he got in gehenna is because he rejected the Love of God. The fire and suffering is probably caused by pride itself - it's self-poisining and self-siffering. Or, may be, it is caused by God's Love, because God will be "all in all".
2. God destroys all evil, self-love and pride in all people and demons, but those in gehenna will suffer of eternal regret that they haven't acquired Holy Spirit and ability to love.

The argument agiainst #1 it was that God will destroy all evel, evil can't exist forever, so those in gehenna can no longer have pride and self-love. The argument against #2 was that if God is Love, why would he torment people forever even though they regret for what they have done?

Another important question:
St. Isaak of Syria wrote "those in gejenna are burnt by the fire of God's Love". If the answer is #1, does it mean the God burns them by His fire, or does it mean that they ARE burnt - burn themselves - because they hate God and His Love. Basically the question is - is it God who torment those in gehenna and make them suffer, even though this is the fire of His Love, or God toesn't torment anyone, and they are tormented by their own unsatisfied pride and self-love. Or, in case of #2, they are tormented by they regret.

I realize that we can't really understand and know how and what will exactly happen during and after Dread Judgement, and I understand that my questions are probably stated in a very primitive way. Even Holy Fathers speculated on this issue in a very vague and careful manner, because we can not fully understand spiritual reality with our human mind. But if a definite answers exist in the Orthodox theology and writings of Holy Fathers, I would be very grateful if anyone would share it with me. Please forgive me my ignorance.

In Crist
Evgeny

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Evgeny,

The following is from St Symeon the New Theologian- 10th Ethical Discourse: "The Day of the Lord, in effect, is not going to be revealed suddenly to those who are ever illumined by the divine light, but for those who are in the darkness of the passions and spend their lives in the world hungering for the things of the world, for them it will be fearful and they will experience it as unbearable fire. However, this fire which is God will not appear in an entirely spiritual manner but, one might say, as bodilessly embodied, in the same as ...Christ of old was seen by the Apostles after having risen from the dead... Unless this were the case, how could the sinners, the unbelievers, the heretics & deniers of the Spirit see Him, who are blind and the eyes of whose souls are stopped up by the mire of unbelief & sin?"

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have thought about your question,"The argument agiainst #1 it was that God will destroy all evel, evil can't exist forever, so those in gehenna can no longer have pride and self-love."(by the way it's a very good question). God will not destroy evil in the sense that one destroys a thing. Evil is a distortion of the good which God created. So the destruction of sin really means the restoration of Life in Christ its fullness. But what of those who as St Symeon says are "hungering for the things of the world" after death and thus are in gehenna? I suppose it is a bit like any type of addict who craves something he can no longer attain. Except that the only thing to fill this craving is Life (Christ) the very thing the sinner tries to turn away from & cannot. What a definition of torment this would be!

Then you ask, "The argument against #2 was that if God is Love, why would he torment people forever even though they regret for what they have done?" It is not God Who is tormenting. What is tormenting to the sinner is his receiving God's Light as fire because of his own sinful hunger. The sinner regrets not his sin but his inability to satisfy his sinful cravings. His lack of repentance carries on.

A very important point however: those who though still sinful hungered for what was good can be delivered from this especially by repentance before death & the prayers of the living for them. I think all of the above means that the will still plays a major role in the person's life after death (if I can put it this way!).

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eugene]

Thank you, Fr. Raphael. This makes perfect sense!

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Father Raphael:

I've not had time to visit Monachos for many months, but as I glanced at it tonight I saw your message. Thank you so much. The analogy with addiction adds an additional dimension to the Orthodox understanding of postmortem suffering, one which had never been suggested to me before. It makes perfect sense and strikingly illuminates some of the subtleties of the Church's wisdom on this difficult matter. Thank you again.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta Heckscher

[Christopher Encapera]

Fr. Raphael,

If I may put it this way, what you seem to be saying is that a person is still a person after death - a will being an essential aspect of a person. Having re-read Job recently, I am struck with the objective reality of evil, and the Evil One however. This seems opposed to

"God will not destroy evil in the sense that one destroys a thing. Evil is a distortion of the good which God created."

In the sense that a "distortion", to my mind at least, does not seem to approach the enormity and depth of evil. Of course, this is an old "problem" (termed the "Problem of evil" by philosophers and academic theologians). Christianity has always been careful to avoid a dualism of Good and Evil, with evil being co-commitment with the Good or God. Still, I sometimes wonder if we are too quick to rush to God's aid, and start reducing evil (indeed, by this very post I am defending evil! ;)). I think the reality of evil is really laid bare by the suffering of the innocent. What I mean is there is on the one hand evil that we are responsible for by our incorrect use of our will, and that needs repenting of. Also (and this is a huge BUT ;)) there is evil that we suffer, through no fault of our own. "In sins did my mother conceive me.." we pray everyday yes, but to what extant can I repent of those sins, being as they are my mother's? Christ has come to save us of these burdens yes, but not yet - in the sense that we still live in fallen time and suffer underserved evil.

Perhaps this is why the Church has always been careful to keep Heaven and Hell divided - because they are not the same thing, and Evil is real, and un-repentant...

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Christopher,

You wrote:


"If I may put it this way, what you seem to be saying is that a person is still a person after death - a will being an essential aspect of a person."

Yes- for example an icon depicts a reposed saint very much as a distinct person. The icon in a sense is even the image of how the person is even more fulfilled in Christ's glory after their repose. So image & likeness is connected to person which death cannot destroy but only distort.

You also wrote:


"Perhaps this is why the Church has always been careful to keep Heaven and Hell divided - because they are not the same thing, and Evil is real, and un-repentant..."

If I understand where you are coming from I would agree that there is a different emphasis between how past & present talk of evil (and also person) in the Church. Sometimes one wonders if influences from existentialism & psychology have crept in. But it could as easily be that this difference arises from modern mans' preoccupation with being & identity in an age of nihilism & chaos. Is this still talked about in society? Up until the 1960s this was talked about in public- there was an awareness of 'loss of identity' & of how this seemed to be connected to the massive growth in material comfort in the 20th century. Naturally those coming to the Church brought these preoccupations with them- it often was one of the main motivations in their conversion.

I think there is something similiar here to our discussion about philosophy on the other thread. These preoccupations of modern man may arise from an evil situation but they are not evil in themselves. Also it is only natural that we would bring something of the way in which society thinks about these issues with us into the Church. In one sense there will be baggage to get rid of- but in another sense the proccupation can express a longing for Paradise.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Christopher Encapera]

Fr. Ralphael,

You ask "Is this still talked about in society". I would not say talked about. Rather, a mix of moral nihilism, Epicurean metaphysics, and an angst ridden existential/physco babble psychology is assumed. The problem of evil is a stumbling block for many an intellectual who actually examines these assumptions and looks for alternatives. For example, read this somewhat typical example: http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/

I am interested in anything the Fathers have to say about the nature and meaning of suffering and Evil, rather eschatological or in the present age. ...

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Christopher,

Thank you for the link. I will read this article.

I see that on the other thread there is a good discussion going on about suffering & its meaning. There is also a book called: The Meaning of Suffering by Archimandrtie Seraphim Aleksiev. This was printed by either St Herman of Alaska Press or by the nuns associated with them- St Xenia of Petersburg Press.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

To all who are either celebrating St Nicholas tomorrow or are beginning the Forefeast of the Nativity on Monday- God's blessing upon all & may you all reap the spiritual fruits of the Advent Fast as we move ever closer to glorifying the Birth of the Incarnate Christ.