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Kosmas Damianides
13-07-2005, 01:56 PM
This was taken from the Encarta online Encyclopedia (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761572657/Orthodox_Church.html) which I think should be edited. As we already know a) using the term Sacrament is Latin not Orthodox. b) the Sacraments of the Orthodox Church have never been limited to 7 c) the actual meaning of the term MYSTERY is different to SACRAMENT. d) Penance denotes punishment (ie penalty or in Greek poinh) and so I feel the term Confession is closer to the greek term exomologhsh which simply means to admit openly. We often wrongly associate confession to punishment which is quite western.

What do you think bretheren?


III Sacramental Practices
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The sacraments, known as mysteries, and the liturgy are at the heart of Orthodox religious practice. Most Orthodox theologians recognize seven sacraments—central rituals of worship—that were introduced or blessed by Jesus Christ. These sacraments are baptism, chrismation (confirmation), the Eucharist, holy orders, matrimony (see marriage), penance (confession), and anointing of the sick. The central Orthodox sacrament is the Eucharist, the ceremony in which the Last Supper of Jesus, known in Orthodoxy as the Mystical Supper, is reenacted. The consecrated bread and wine of the Eucharist are taken by the Orthodox to be the true body and blood of Christ. Communion is received by the Orthodox only after much preparation involving fasting and confession. Because the precise number of mysteries has never been formally defined by an ecumenical council, as it was in Catholicism, some Orthodox theologians have taught that the act of becoming a monk or the service of burial can also be sacraments.

The sacramental practice of the Orthodox differs in many details from Western customs. Baptism is administered by immersing the child or adult three times under the water, each time in the name of one of the persons of the Trinity. It is followed immediately by anointment with chrism, a sacred perfumed oil that represents the gift and grace of the Holy Spirit. This chrismation (known in Western churches as confirmation) is normally given to infants rather than to adolescents. Immediately after chrismation the person receives Eucharistic communion. Adult converts who have been validly baptized in other Christian denominations may be received into the Orthodox Church by the rite of chrismation. Penance or confession in the Orthodox Church is similar to the practice in Catholicism. Orthodoxy teaches the indissolubility of marriage as the ideal, but allows second and even third marriages in church. Clergy are allowed to be married only once, and that marriage must take place before ordination.

The Orthodox Church has three categories of higher clergy: bishops, priests, and deacons. There are also minor orders, most commonly those of reader and subdeacon. Those who have received higher holy orders may not marry afterward, but there are many married priests and deacons in the Orthodox Church. Bishops, however, are required to be celibates. Until the 12th century the Orthodox Church ordained women as deacons, and the ritual still exists in ancient service books. But since that time the office of female deacon has fallen into disuse. The Orthodox Church is opposed to the admission of women to the priesthood or episcopate as something that lacks sanction from the church fathers.

Bishops are consecrated by at least three of their peers and they are seen as occupying the place of Christ at the Eucharistic liturgy. They are considered the guardians and witnesses of a tradition that goes back without interruption to the apostles. The chief aspect of their ministry is presiding over unity, ensuring that their local church remains united in faith and practice with all other local Orthodox churches in the universal community of Orthodox faith.

Fortunately we are allowed to give them our own article for them to decide on if it is better than theirs, but we have to provide sources for our changes to be considered seriously.

Furthermore St John Chrysostom tells us that Baptism is the greatest mystery, whereas St Nicholas Cabasilas tells us that Eucharist is the greatest. I tend to agree with the former, that Baptism (as mentined in the Creed) is one of our greatest beliefs and Mysteries of the Church. Baptism is our rebirth into the Body of Christ, Eucharist is a renewal and purification of our conscience in Christ, which should be accompanied together with repentance and confession, it is like a second baptism. Nevertheless both are of equal importance for our salvation.

Owen Jones
13-07-2005, 02:19 PM
Even the term confession sometimes misses the mark. True confession is a revelation from God through the heart. It is a way that God reveals his true love for mankind. The result of true confession is freedom. There are millions of people who have left Christian churches because they were brought up on a God is who strictly a punishing God. Then they term to some kind of claptrap that defines God in the opposite extreme: as some kind of empathetic therapist. It is a cultural disaster of the first magnitude.

Kosmas Damianides
14-07-2005, 09:19 AM
Although these are only two of many verses in the Bible, they show us the importance of 'admitance of guilt' or 'confession' in the life of the Church.

"Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds." Acts 19:18

"Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." James 5:16

Confessing sins in the early Church was quite natural since it was also Jewish law to offer sacrifices after confessing their sins to the high priest. Now that Jesus is our sacrifice, we no longer need to sacrifice animals all we need to do is confess our sins to God in front of the congregation, (or as it is done these days), in the witness of the bishop or priest.

In Christ

Kosmas

Patrick Walsh
26-07-2005, 08:54 PM
Hello

As a convert (who attended an Orthodox Liturgy one week before being received into the Roman Catholic Church and has yet to return to that Catholic Church) I spent a great deal of effort trying to get a very simple understanding of the Orthodox Mysteries, and spent many hours of my poor spiritual father's time trying to understand the major Mysteries.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There are two parts here. I am certain what St. John Chrysostom was referring to was the two together, Baptism and Chrismation, being the greatest of the Mysteries.

The water baptism is for the remission of sins, the removal of that which is defiled from the person in order that he may safely receive the Holy Spirit in the Mystery of Chrismation.

The Mystery of Confession is the renewal of the water Baptism, and the spirit baptism, called the Mystery of Chrismation, is renewed with the Eucharist. This is logical since one must repent one's sins and receive forgiveness prior to safely receiving the Eucharist which is fire that will consume all that is unholy (See the Canon of Preparation for Holy Communion). The Holy Apostle Paul admonishes us not to receive the Eucharist unworthily.

Indeed the Mystery of Baptism and Chrismation together are the greatest of Mysteries from the salvific point of view. Without them, the Eucharist is meaningless (or worse than meaningless) for we are without the walls of the kingdom of heaven.

But...

The Eucharist is that through the partaking of which we receive the living Word of God! Through Baptism, we are born into the Church. But as an infant born from a womb does not prosper on his own, the newly baptized does not prosper on his own. He soon falls back into his sinful ways again and is lost.

The infant needs the loving care of his mother, and the sustenance and support of his parents and family to thrive. We, with the Image of God restored in us through rebirth into the Body of Christ, are but vulnerable spiritual infants with no expectation to thrive, or even survive. Not even a priest can serve God alone. We need the Church to support and nourish us. And that nourishment is the food of the flesh and blood of Christ, the Eucharist. We need this sustenance in order to work our spiritual podvig which will develop and strengthen our faith, and bring us closer to knowing God.

So from the point of view of life in the kingdom
of heaven, this is the greatest of Mysteries.

The Mystery of Confession and the Eucharist are inextricably tied to the Mystery of Baptism and Chrismation.

Please make any corrections to my statements. I am but a mere intruder into the Orthodox and have received no formal schooling in this. And please forgive the apparent arrogance of my words, but I am told to speak boldly, as we boldly ask the Theotokos to carry our petitions to her son's ear.

feofil

Mina Monir
31-07-2005, 10:53 PM
Hello ,

infact I am wondering if I can find documents on comparative theology answer the protestants , and prove to them how the seven Sacraments are totally biblican teaching and if we can find also historical documents support the fact that the apostles of the first church of the 1st century practised these sacraments , I really need these documents because we must be together one orthodox community to protect our people from the protestant teachings which destroys their salvation and next life , We always know well that without the redemptive sacraments, we cannot be salvated , and wont deserve the Christ's sacrifice . I believe we as oriental or even eastern ( in fact I don't believe in these expressions) orthodox , we must struggle to stop this attack against the apostolic teachings.

thanks in advance .
in christ,
Mina

Olga
01-08-2005, 06:19 AM
There is an excellent site, www.ourlifeinchrist.com (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com), (click the link "audio archive) whose radio programs are also downloadable in mp3 format. The announcers are Orthodox converts (originally evangelical Protestant), and their programs are well-researched and very easy to listen to. They recently did a series on the sacraments.

Leandros Papadopoulos
01-08-2005, 03:08 PM
The Commandments

Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Baptism
20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Chrismation
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Penance (Confession)
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Eucharist
20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The priesthood
20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Marriage
20:14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Unction (anointing of the sick)
20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.

Mina Monir
01-08-2005, 04:49 PM
thanks Olga for this site,

I have a very useful book defends for orthodox teachings against the protestant objects ,
written by HH pope Shenouda III , pope of Alexandria and the see of saint Mark the apostle and evangelist. this book describes the orthodox teaching for the protestants , from the bible only , because we know well that protestants do not believe in tradition . so , I hope it would be useful and I hope we can in this community exchange books and experience to defend for our pure apostolic faith and thanks again .

yours in Christ,
Mina

David Naess
23-10-2007, 08:49 PM
Howdy!

The difficulty with discussing the sacrements with protestants is basicly one of semantics and not one of biblical evidence.

In my old protestant neighborhood, it was not a sacrement unless there was an "external physical vehicle" associated with it i.e.; the spirit enters "in, with and under" the vehicles.

Thus you have baptism since it uses water
and communion since it uses bread and wine.

Given this prerequisite, I have never been able to figure out why anointing with oil, as is done in chrismation or holy unction, never made it into the protestant sacrements.

M.C. Steenberg
23-10-2007, 10:00 PM
Dear Mr Naess, you wrote:


In my old protestant neighborhood, it was not a sacrement unless there was an "external physical vehicle" associated with it i.e.; the spirit enters "in, with and under" the vehicles. [...] Given this prerequisite, I have never been able to figure out why anointing with oil, as is done in chrismation or holy unction, never made it into the protestant sacrements.

There is a consonant understanding in many traditions, that some manner of direct institution by Christ is mandatory - and so baptism and the Eucharist are seen as both having received direct instigation by Jesus: at the 'last supper' before the Passion; and in Christ's own baptism and his charge as the 'great commission'. According to such an understanding, a sacrament such as chrismation or anointing would be seen to lack this direct institution, as there is no evidence in the written Gospels of Christ himself commanding or enacting the same.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Maria Murray
24-10-2007, 03:02 AM
Dave,
I cannot speak for the whole Protestant camp, but when we attended a Four Square church (charismatic), the pastor annointed people with real oil to "receive the Holy Spirit", and the same (I think) was done with the sick. I don't know where this originated, however, and if it was only the pastor's personal invention.

David Naess
24-10-2007, 05:06 AM
Dave,
I cannot speak for the whole Protestant camp, but when we attended a Four Square church (charismatic), the pastor annointed people with real oil to "receive the Holy Spirit", and the same (I think) was done with the sick. I don't know where this originated, however, and if it was only the pastor's personal invention.
Howdy Maria!

It was done at my church too...

but it wasn't called a SACRAMENT, just a BLESSING.

Michael Stickles
24-10-2007, 02:58 PM
Dave,
I cannot speak for the whole Protestant camp, but when we attended a Four Square church (charismatic), the pastor annointed people with real oil to "receive the Holy Spirit", and the same (I think) was done with the sick. I don't know where this originated, however, and if it was only the pastor's personal invention.

At least two Protestant churches I attended (one Church of Christ, and one non-denominational charismatic) occasionally practiced annointing the sick with oil, but it was the elders of the church who did it, not just the pastor. It comes from James 5:14-15


Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Just as in David's experience, the term "sacrament" wasn't used, though I doubt there was any deeper reason for that than not wanting to sound Catholic.

In Christ,
Mike