On communion

[Eugene]

Dear brothers and sisters,

Could you please help me to clarify my confusion? I remember reading long time ago in some paterik that one father (St. Macarios or St. Anthony) when being in Chusch at Liturgy saw a vision that not all communicants actually received the Body of Christ - an Angel replaced the Body of Christt with a simple bread and wine for some of them. Does anyone remember what book it was from? Is this understanding comply with Orthodox teaching on Communion?

More general question related to this - Why is that every Orthodox Christian becomes a member of the Church - the Body of Christ - in this life through the Sacraments, but not everyone gets saved? I guess this is because our synergy - the choice of our will, following commandments, denying ourselves is also required. But does everyone participating in Communion receive the Body of Christ, even those who willfully betray Him? Did Judas actually received the Body of Christ at the Last Supper, and then betrayed Christ? I undrestand the danger of this question - it's bad to look at your neighbours and think "Who is actually receiving the Eucharist, and who is not?". But my curiosity is not about other people, but rather about myself - I often go to Communion when I'm in evil passions and in sinful thoughts. Does Christ enters me through Communion even when I willfully betray Him and break His commandements at the moment of Communion, or when I have sins which I haven't yet confessed?

Thank you,
Evgeny

[Irene]

Evgeny said "I often go to Communion when I'm in evil passions and in sinful thoughts. Does Christ enters me through Communion even when I willfully betray Him and break His commandements at the moment of Communion, or when I have sins which I haven't yet confessed?"}

Evgeny, be careful, if there is any time that the evil one will try to stir up the passions and sinfulness of our nature it is, of course before Holy Communion.

I will paraphrase advice from my Priest because I have asked him similar questions:

Pray Pray Pray before confession that you remember your sins, keep moving to the back of the line if you have to until you are last and and you have prayed your hardest for help. Tell your Priest about your fears, of the thoughts, temptations and passions that overcome you as you are about to go to Communion and be obedient to his advice even if you think he is being too lenient or too hard on you.

As well as doing the Canon before Holy Communion. When you line up for Communion, pray continually for help and forgiveness for your sins. If you feel tears welling up in your eyes before going to communion, even if you feel like sobbing, don't feel ashamed, this is good. If you do not, don't worry either.

I asked about random thoughts that got into my head that appeared to have nothing to do with my personality or my wishes, ever, and Father told me the Demonic ones were trying to put thoughts into my head and when this happens pray even harder.

As for Communion, I am never worthy to partake of it, but I believe that it is the Body and Blood of Christ and I have never heard any different. It is possible that this might be something put around by the evil one to distract us? Maybe not, someone with knowledge hopefully will answer.

Do prayer to the Saints who are particularly helpful in fighting demonic influence. I like praying to Sts Cyprian and Justina, but of course there are so many. Because, it is certainly demonic influence that tries to stir you up and perhaps disuade you from going to Holy Communion. They use our own guilt against us at times. Pray the prayer that you don't depart from this life until you have worthily partaken of the Body and Blood of Christ.

In Christ
irene

[Eugene]

Thanks Irene. You are right. I usually try to do my best to fight evil thougts and temptations during the Liturgy. Jesus prayer helps a lot.

One more thought on the question I asked. It's known that posessed people, when they take Communion, get calmed and releived for a while. Doesn't this mean that thay actually receive the Body of Christ?

I'm still puzzled about the story in paterik about the Communion. May be it's an apocripha or some later inclusion from heretic writings? (Sorry for my poor English)

[Arsenios]

Evgeny wrote:


"...when being in Church at Liturgy saw a vision that not all communicants actually received the Body of Christ - an Angel replaced the Body of Christt with a simple bread and wine for some of them."

That is greatly comforting, Evgeny, at least for me... I tend to want to take communion even when I am not sure I should - Because I tend to take umbrage at the demon's attempts to keep me from the Body and Blood of our Lord... And unless I seriously fall, and willingly, I will not allow some demonic insinuations to keep me from Christ...

Truth be told, if the vision is true, then I am doubtless that blessed angel's "job security", for I am sure that I eat and drink condemnation regularly, and have wondered at how I have not been smashed... I just figured I was being 'covered' somehow due to my 'youth' [in the faith] and ignorance...

Yet the doubling of communion in a week has always been more than a double blessing - Communing daily is something I cannot even imagine...

I simply do not rely on my own opinion to keep me from communion... Demons always seem to have some ploy to get me to think that I should not partake...

Have you asked your spiritual father, Evgeny? What would he say? We have automatikkers, of course, that well should keep us from the cup, but simply an assault of thoughts as we line up to receive should be overcomable by the Jesus Prayer, yes?

And if not, then simply telling the priest that you are being assaulted by bad thoughts might be a good thing... Perhaps you are just being humbled, and should seek some greater repentance...

I don't know...

It is a really good question...

And please forgive the sinfulness of my reply.

Arsenios

[Irene]

Reading Arsenios's post I do understand how Comforting the thought that the Holy Communion could be only bread and wine unless we are worthy of partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ.

However, this thought concerns me deeply. Who amongst us Orthodox would ever believe we are truly worthy of this mystery. How many times have the Saints mentioned how sinful and unworthy they were.

If people started to think that they were safe, that the Angel would not let them partake unworthily then would people become more lax and casual about preparation?

On the other hand those who worry and believe they are unworthy will prepare to the utmost of their abilities to partake in the fear of partaking unworthily. I believe that the closer you get to "getting it right" the more you will be tormented by the evil one and he will try to get you to decide not to partake until you are worthy.

Isn't this one path to despair, never feeling worthy and condeming ourselves?

If we are children or the lambs of Christ, and he has placed us under the care of his representative on earth - our Spiritual Father - do we have any right to judge ourselves too much or should we allow ourselves to trust and have faith in his guidance?

In fact going to Confession, unless your Priest tells us not to go to Communion then perhaps we are being a little too self-willed - non-obedient?
I am talking to myself also because I struggle with all this.

I don't know but I am looking forward to more knowledgeable people posting on this thread.

In Christ
irene

[Alex Haig]

"I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.

Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery of Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom.

May the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body."

(Prayer before Receiving Holy Communion by St John Chrysostom)

[Eugene]

Thank you Alex for reminding me the prayer. It states that "this is truly Thine own most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood" and contains our request to Christ to accept us as communicants. But would the request imply that it is possible that He may not accept this request, in which case the Body and Blood will be invisibly replaced by bread and wine? From the other hand, the request "May the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation" implies a possibility for an unprepared person to actually partalke in the true Body and Blood of Christ for judgement and condemnation.

It's not a secret that, with the practice of every Eucharist participant taking Communion, sometimes even guests and people not prepared for communion and not even aware of the Communion prayer also partake in Communion. Unfortunately I see it happening once in a while in our parish. It' not not that I'm judjing those people, quite the opposite, I worry for them as they take Communion for "judgment and condemnation". The practice of congregational Communion implies that everyone understands the requirements for preparation, but unfortunately not every communicant is sometimes even aware of those requirements. However, this is altogether a different issue.

Anyway, the question remains unanswered yet ...

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

We must never lose sight of the fact that at Communion we receive the True Body & Blood of our Lord God & Saviour Jesus Christ. No matter how unworthy we may be this does not mean that the Body & Blood somehow then become mere bread & wine. Once Incarnate Christ is always Incarnate.

Of course humanly this may be a stumbling block for us. Paradoxically the more we acknowledge our unworthiness through confession & our prayers before Communion- & the more we are of a humble & repentant disposition- then more we are found 'worthy' of receiving the Body & Blood of Christ. Thus when we use the word 'worthy' before receiving communion it does not mean 'sinless'. Rather it means that through the very acknowledgement of our sinful state before Christ He takes us in His all-loving Hands and bestows His eternal Life on us.

This again however is a stumbling block for the human mind. In many things we seeks justice, a 'spiritual equation' rather than mercy, even in regards to ourselves. Once we catch the fact however that Christ desires to show us mercy & not justice through Communion, then we like the good-thief will break down in tears and simply say, "Remember me O Lord in Thy Kingdom."

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eugene]

Thank you Fr. Raphael for you answer. You well explained the moral side of the question, the way we should approach the communion. There is, however, a theological side which I'm confused with: does every communicant actually receives the Body of Christ regardless of what are the person's state of mind and beleifs? For example, would non-Orthodox or non-Christian participating in Communion receive the Body and Blood of Christ? What if a person receives the Communion not as a good thief, but as a bad thief?

Well, I guess, a simple answer may be that it's not my busyness to ask this kind of questions, it would be more useful for me to watch my own sins. Christ will take care of both good thiefs and bad thiefs in a way He finds appropriate.

In Christ
Eugene

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Evgeny,

You ask, "There is, however, a theological side which I'm confused with: does every communicant actually receives the Body of Christ regardless of what are the person's state of mind and beleifs? For example, would non-Orthodox or non-Christian participating in Communion receive the Body and Blood of Christ? What if a person receives the Communion not as a good thief, but as a bad thief?"

The simple answer is, yes all receive the Body & Blood of Christ. But this can be to our salvation or condemnation. When Christ preached among His people some received Him with joy, others did not know what to make of Him after showing initial interest, others rejected Him as a blasphemer against religious common sense. Read the parable of the Sower & the seed.

Receiving Christ, knowing Christ and salvation are inseparable. And none of this takes place fully outside of His Body the Church.

So as your question implies we cannot separate the 'moral' from the theological side of this question.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eugene]

Thank you, Fr. Raphael, you answered my question!

[matt]

Yes, thank you Father. It is too easy to believe in our sins more than the grace and love of God. And the eucharist is "for the remission of sins" after all. And the idea that our bad thoughts or temptations come from us all the time, esp if our will and heart is seeking the mercy of God, is very spiritually paralyzing. And even with all of our mixed motives and uncertainties, we can always be assured that God has overcome the devil and the world and that He is big enough to handle our weaknesses and overcome them by grace. Too much of a fixation on ourselves and our spiritual temperature is perhaps unwelcome. Pray to God in love, repent when you do wrong, try to love everyone adn it all works out. The diagnostic part is for our spiritual fathers.

[Alex Haig]

While reading this thread the sermon of St John came into mind, in particular:

Rejoice today, both you who have fasted
And you who have disregarded the fast.
The table is full-laden; feast ye all sumptuously.
The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.
Enjoy ye all the feast of faith:
Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness.

- Paschal Sermon of St John Chrysostom (http://www.monachos.net/pascha/common/paschal_sermon.shtml)

This does not mean that we should disregard all the rules of the Church, but rather that Christ calls us all in our sinfulness to partake of His Body and Blood "for the remission of [our] sins, and unto life everlasting."

With love in Christ

Alex

[Eugene]

If anyone interested, I found the original source of this story:
Rufin "Life of the Desert Fathers" chapt. 29 (on St. Makarios of Alexandria)

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

I am interested if its not too late,
with love in Christ
pray for me to love God
Charalambos

[Eugene]

Well, I only have it in Russian. I know that there is also an English translation of Rufin, but I don't have it, sorry. I meant - if anyone interested, one can look in the original book. :o)

[Dimis]

I didn’t know where else to put this messaqge so I decided to post it in this thread since it is related with these that I am going to write. However my english isn't very good. I am going to write in short something about the sacrament of Holy Communion and how through our belief in Christ we can be saved. As we know sin entered the human nature because of disobedience of Adam and Eve. And through them it entered us too, because we come from them. But Christ willed to correct our fallen nature in the same way that it has fallen. That is through obedience in His Father and our God. Christ is the only fair that ever existed and is the only man who by low could be saved. And now how we, sinful ones, can be saved? With the Holy Communion. Because Holy Communion is truely blood and flesh of our Saviour Christ. And through Holy Communion we become related to Christ, our God. And as Apostle Paul says when we receive Holy Communion we become bone from His bones and flesh from His flesh, and that is what happens literally. So, as through our relationship with Adam and Eve sin entered our nature, now through our relationship with God-man Christ salvation enters our nature and our sins are forgiven. Comments are accepted!