Apophaticism and kataphaticism

[John Manutes]

Christ Is Risen!

I have just finished reading Lossky's "In the Image and Likeness of God", Chapters 1 and 2, and "Orthodox Theology: an Introduction", the prologue. I find apophasis and kataphasis, at the level Lossky writes, to be a bit above my understanding but I think I can distill a few basic points. I would appreciate your comments.

First, God is unknowable, He transcends all. If we as created beings think we know or understand God, then it is not God we are really perceiving, but a manifestation, His energy. As creatures we can ascend only so far through knowledge until we reach the divine darkness that is God's superessential essence. This is the limit of the kataphatic way to union with God. It is not possible to be in perfect union with God via the kataphatic approach.

The apophatic approach dispenses with all knowledge of God, all perceptions which are only concepts of our created minds. Like the skin of an onion, we peel away our concepts, our perceptions, our ideas of God until there is nothing left. We must transcend the created and enter into the mystical, the uncreated light of God and still we would not, and could not, communiton with His superessential essence, His divine darkness.

Your comments are desired and welcome. Also, if there are references to this subject which are written less scholarly shall we say, I would appreciate knowing about them.

In Christ,
John

[Moses Anthony]

Dear John M.

I remember once as an undergraduate on the return ride from a field trip, my art professor asked me to, "explain God." My answer took all of about thirty seconds, if it was that long.
The 'fight song' of our pan-orthodox community (one of them), the troparia of the resurrection says, "Thou didst reveal Thy glory to Thy disciples, in proportion as they could bear it..." In other words the truth about the Holy Trinity is always revealed truth, and not academically accquired. Not to mention that what's revealed to us is according to what we're able to bear. This in no way negates what the Apostle Paul says about God in the first chapter of Romans, that in the physical creation the truth about God has been clearly revealed. There is, it seems to me, a clear place for both approaches to knowing our Father, with the greater belonging to apophatic knowledge.

His un-worthy servant
Moses

[Thomas]

John M --

Your description of apophatic knowledge and kataphatic knowledge sounds like a pretty good general description of the two concepts ... perhaps you understood Lossky better than you thought!

The two kinds of knowledge are, in a certain sense, built on each other: one gets to apophatic knowledge through kataphatic knowledge, leaving kataphatic behind once you've moved past it. But they are still always connected in life: a person always 'knows' both kataphatically and apophatically.

Tom

[Vlad Benea]

Christ is risen!

John, I don't know if this has any interest to you, but here is what Pr. Dumitru Staniloae (one of Romania's greatest theologians) underlines: whereas the kataphatic knowledge (through afirmations or negations) is mainly an intellectual one, and the apophatic knowledge is one that is meant for the "more advanced people in the spiritual life" (I can't find the right English word, sorry), the whole of the faithfull people know God through their usual life-events. (I really do hate my translation).

We know God by His taking care of us: giving us gifts, or pedagogically depriving us of them. We know God through the request of our fellow humans, who sometimes put our patience at great test, in the hardships of our lives, in our diseases or in the diseases of our closed ones, in the voice of our conscience as a followup to our sins, but also in the help, the strength we receive in enduring and conquering these hardships. This is a knowledge that touches us more directly, that ties us to God, and helps us in finding our own way in life, in improving and greatening our love for God and for our fellows.

In this guideness God provides to us, we know His kindess, His goodness, His power, His wisdom, His patience, His deep taking care of us and for the plan He has with each one.
In this knowledge I don't know God as the Creator and "Proniator" of all, but I know Him in His special taking care of me.

Also, God reveals Himself to us also in all our sufferings, which make the soul more sensitive to God's presence. (As Saint Leonid of Optina answered, when being asked by someone if the prayer of the heart is meant only for the "advanced" people. He said: if someone will lose a very close person, or have a very big disease, that person will pray with his whole heart, for in great pain both the heart and the mind are united)
We also know God by the needs of our fellows. In each person, it is Christ actually requesting our help. In the stretched hand of the poor guy it is actually Christ's hand; in his voice, we hear Christ's voice, in his suffering, it is actually the suffering of Christ.

The knowledge of God in our usual life-events is therefore an existential knowledge of God and of His direct relationship with us, in which we experience His great love for us, as our Creator, "Proniator" and Saviour.

I'm sorry for writing such a long message, that probably does not have much to do with what you asked, but I hope this will help you. It was this much I could do.

Pray for me,
Vlad

[John Manutes]

Christ Is Risen!

Vlad,

Your message was both of great interest and of great benefit. I will use your message (with your permission) both in my studies and in my life. Thank you for taking the time and God Bless You.

John