Virginity and desire in the saints

[Daniel Jeandet]

I dont know where he said it, I read it in someones post on another message board.


Once I had a dream about Father Seraphim. He was before me, sitting in a dark hut and working by candlelight, binding a book. He turned to me and said: "No one can comprehend the Holiness of the Mother of God". As he turned back to his work I awoke. Then I probably did about a hundred sins throughout that day and agonised over them and hated myself as I struggled to erase the guilt by reinforcing the memories (doh). I might have cried in bed that night because I cant live with my wife and son (the punchline to my monastic fantasies), especially if I had skipped my evening prayer. I dont remember if any of those other things happened, I cant remember how I felt a few seconds ago when I started writing this post, still wondering if I should consider myself dangerous to its readers. I changed as I wrote it. And who cares about changing things, or as my son Jude says "what matters"?

What matters and what doesnt change is that "No one can comprehend the Holiness of the Mother of God".

[Olympiada]

Daniel, I got a radical question for you. Did the Mother of God experience sexual desire? Did any of the woman saints ? In fact does Orthodoxy deal with sexual desire in women *at all* or all hol y women virgins? Olympiada

[Trudy]

St. Mary of Egypt was not a virgin. But look at her story. She struggled in the desert for 40 years or something like that, to over come her passions. I love her for her story gives me great encouragement.

There are many other female saints who were married and/or had children, thus were not virgins.

Does it matter whether the Theotokos experienced sexual desire? Probably not. It is true to me that "No one can comprehend the Holiness of the Mother of God." That is a wonderful quote. How in the world could we comprehend that? I can barely get my heart and mind around the fact that she carried the ineffable and uncontainable God the Son, Jesus Christ in her womb.

Glory to God for all things! Christ IS Born! Glorify Him!

~Athanasia~

[Olympiada]

Anathasia, I know Saint Mary of Egypt was not a virgin. That is why I mentioned her. I t does matter if the Theotokos experienced sexual desire. Did she fully possess human nature or did she not? For that matter did Jesus experience sexual desire? Did he *fully* possess our human nature. Dogma said he does. So was he given to virginity like her ? And if so is this fully possessing human nature because most human beings are not virginal, especially not passionate intense or artistic ones which is what prophets and theologians are. Yes I am greatly disturbed by this veneration of virginity. Where does it account for human passion? I think this is a scholastic *heresy* to say the least and a gnostic one at that. Sacrophobia. And I am fired up about this. Christ is Born! Glorify Him! Olympiada Kane

And by the way this does tie into self worth because for women the highest thing to aspire to in the Orthodox Church is the *virgin* Mary. Well, what if you ain't a virgin? Then what? You see the despair? Ah, now the truth comes out behind this thread. Thank God. Praise the Lord! Is the image and likeness of God defiled by fornication, or is the person still the image and likeness of God? And let us go back to the Old Testament to look at this subject with the first fornicators. Who were they?

[Fr. George Morelli]

Christ is born! I am saddened by the direction of some of the threads on this topic ... even sinners, the greatest of them are made in God's image and called to be like him. He calls all to salvation. There is a tradition in the church about the sanctity of the celibate life...but only for those called to it. It one is called by God to be married then that is His will for him or her and the path to holiness, illumination and theosis. Holy marriage is a beautiful state in which the spouses participate in God's creation ... I have made reference and elaborated on this in an article I wrote "Sex is Holy" on the www.orthodoxytoday.org (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org) website ...... St John Chrysostom wrote: "For our married people have everything in common with the monks except marriage." All people should adapt themselves to Christ's commandments." ...in the healing Christ's name who calls us all to salvation ....FrGeorge

[Monachos.net]

Dear all,

The emerging discussion on virginity and desire in the saints has been moved from the &#39;Self Worth&#39; discussion to a new thread, the location of which is indicated by the present message. Let us keep this new thread focussed on the question of virginity, chastity, desire and related issues <u>in the lives of the saints</u>; questions of praxis that don&#39;t directly relate to this can take place in the appropriate sections elsewhere.

Monachos.net

[M.C. Steenberg]

There is an abiding desire in the human condition to separate and divide the diversity of way of life in to categories that can neatly and comfortably be described as &#39;right&#39; and &#39;wrong&#39;, &#39;good&#39; and &#39;bad&#39;. There are some contexts in which such division and classification is helpful and proper; but also many, a great many, when it is revelatory of a desire to simplify life in order to make it more palatable to our tastes and preferences.

The Church teaches us nothing at all about sexuality and relationality, if it does not teach us that we are wrong ever to classify and dismiss either that marriage is sacred, or that virginity is sacred. Both are to be venerated, as exemplified in the virginal Christ blessing the marriage feast in his first &#39;public miracle&#39;. To think one or the other unworthy of veneration seems to me either to denigrate Christ&#39;s action or his person.

Learning to venerate both is difficult, largely because one of the easiest ways to promote a kind of personal security with our own situation -- however good or bad, right or wrong, healthy or destructive it might actually be -- is to discount other ways, especially ways that seem opposite or counter &#40;whether or not this is really the case&#41;. A simplistic means of affirming one&#39;s choice of a virginal life is to discount or discredit marriage as lowly. A simplistic means of affirming one&#39;s married state is to discount virginity.

Christianity demands the veneration of both; and more than this, the vision of each in the other. It is for this reason that traditionally the veneration of virgin-saints is always so strong in cultures of married life, and exhortations on the value of marital union are constant in celibate/monastic climates.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Matthew, Married or virgin are only two choices. If those are the only two paths to sainthood not many people are going to become saints. Saint Maria Skobstova was divorced twice. I would encourage you to be a bit more inclusive of 21s t century reality in your next post. I am having a hard time relating to this one. In Christ Olympiada

[M.C. Steenberg]

Married or virgin are only two choices. If those are the only two paths to sainthood not many people are going to become saints. Saint Maria Skobstova was divorced twice.

I was careful in my earlier post to speak of these categories, marital and virginal ways, rather than marital and monastic, or some other specific path of virginal life. It is true that there are other contexts of life than simply marriage or monasticism (e.g. widows, unmarried or divorced persons), but the Church only blesses these two broad contexts of living: virginal, or marital. It should be remembered, with regard to the first term, that the Church's focus in its regard is not biological, but in reference to a mode of existence -- virginal is a way one lives one's life, not necessarily a biological circumstance of never in one's life having had sexual relations.

That in mind, virginal or marital really are the only two options blessed by the Church; the only other would be a non-marital sexual mode of life, which is not blessed and in fact explicitly prohibited. Divorce is a kind of new virginity, as is widowhood.

This being the twenty-first century has no bearing on this situation; we are speaking here of the means Christ has offered for the living of his life in the world. It is Christ who sets these parameters, not the world.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

It should be remembered, with regard to the first term, that the Church's focus in its regard is not biological, but in reference to a mode of existence -- virginal is a way one lives one's life, not necessarily a biological circumstance of never in one's life having had sexual relations. That in mind, virginal or marital really are the only two options blessed by the Church; the only other would be a non-marital sexual mode of life, which is not blessed and in fact explicitly prohibited. Divorce is a kind of new virginity, as is widowhood.

Matthew, Ok I can accept what you are saying now. I know full well that a non-marita l sexual mode of life is unacceptable. But you had to enumerate the non-biological virginity for me before I could accept it, that is all. So can you describe this virginal mode of life? In Christ Olympiada

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear All,

It seems to me that Matthew is both compassionate and correct in pointing out that


It should be remembered, with regard to the first term, that the Church's focus in its regard is not biological, but in reference to a mode of existence -- virginal is a way one lives one's life, not necessarily a biological circumstance of never in one's life having had sexual relations.

Married Christians know well that the struggle for a pure, virginal condition of body and soul does not cease by participation in the sacrament of holy matrimony - for those of us called to this way of life in fact, the journey towards mutual purity together with one's spouse begins there. Some saints married, then lived together as brother and sister for the rest of their lives; others bore children, but were no less saints for that! We know that in heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage, yet we also hold that marriage is eternal, divorce a compassionate concession to human weakness and fragility. Surely St Paul's comparison between marriage and the love of Christ for the Church is a telling measure of the dignity of Christian marriage. We don't know in detail what the condition of each soul in the next life will be: yet surely we may be permitted to speculate that married persons will continue to experience a special affinity even there, even then, to the person with whom they became one flesh in Christ?

Similarly the condition of virginity in the monastic or celibate life (whether this be pre-marriage or post-divorce) is a state of soul first, and only then a biological reality. St Basil himself said


I have never known a woman, and yet I am not a virgin.

If a sainted (and what a saint!) biological virgin can feel he is "not a virgin", then perhaps one may speculate again that it is legitimate for someone who is not a biological virgin , for reasons of divorce or even past sins for which there has been genuine repentance and change of lifestyle, to hope that there may be reason to continue the pious pursuit of inner virginity? Life can deal our soul many scars, but we firmly hold that the image of God can be restored to full clarity even in the very worst of sinners. Isn't this Orthodox teaching?

In Christ
Byron

[Olympiada]

Dear Byron, Why did Saint Basil feel he was not a virgin? I do not understand this &#42;at all&#42;. In Christ Olympiada

[Antonios]

Olympiada,

I&#39;m not sure anyone can truly know why St. Basil felt he was not a virgin aside from St. Basil himself. I guess it was from his own awareness of his sinfulness and the transgressions he committed while still on the earth. When I read Byron&#39;s quote, the first Scriptural passage that popped up in my head was Matthew 5:28 : But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I hope this helps,
Antonios

[Alec Lowly]

Olympiada asked Daniel:

&#34;Daniel, I got a radical question for you. Did the Mother of God experience sexual desire? Did any of the woman saints ? In fact does Orthodoxy deal with sexual desire in women &#42;at all&#42; or all holy women virgins?&#34;

I wouldn&#39;t presume to speak about the Theotokos, in whom there is a great mystery, but it seems to me that sexual desire would not have been unknown to saintly women. In and of itself, sexual desire is not sin.

If I&#39;m wrong in saying this, I ask for the comnunity to correct me. I will listen with humility.

In XC,
Alec Lowly, sinner

[M.C. Steenberg]

Why did Saint Basil feel he was not a virgin?

From John Cassian, The Institutes, book 6: 'On the Spirit of Fornication'. Chapter 19:

What the holy bishop Basil said about the quality of his own virginity.

The holy bishop Basil of Caesarea made this rather tentative statement: 'I have never known a woman', he said, 'and yet I am not a virgin'. For he understood the incorruption of the flesh to consist not in abstaining from women but in purity of heart, where the fear of God and love of chastity without interruption uphold unblemished holiness of body.

[Olympiada]

Matthew, Can we see a saint in this day and age of nihilism be pure in heart? That i s what I want to see. Can we not discuss someone like this? In Christ Olympiada

[M.C. Steenberg]

Can we see a saint in this day and age of nihilism be pure in heart?

Yes, such people are all around us. I am somewhat loathe to point out specific name modern-day saints, since that tends to distract somewhat (in this particular context) from the reality that the 'ordinary people' around us may also live such lives.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Matthew, Pardon but you felt free to point out ancient saints so why not modern ones ? They might help this cynical nihilistic post-modern convert a little more. In Christ Olympiada

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Pardon but you felt free to point out ancient saints so why not modern ones ? They might help this cynical nihilistic post-modern convert a little more. In Christ Olympiada

A lot of the saints become saints through their struggle and suffering. You could become one of these modern saints Olympiada.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

I really have to agree with Matthew in that it is not profitable to &#34;name names&#34; of people that we think might be &#34;living saints&#34; because there is no way to know how they will finish their lives from this point and if they become &#34;popular&#34; this temptation can be used by the evil one to derail a holy life - saints in this life usually live quietly and are revealed by God Himself only to those who have need.

That being said, I think I can easily name someone who recently did complete this life and whom I &#40;in my ignorance and spiritual blindness&#41; consider to have been a saint and that would be Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco. Vladyka Anthony, during his life, was a prime example of saintliness and is regarded by many of his flock already as a saint &#40;although there is no great &#34;movement&#34; towards public veneration at this time&#41;. Also, I do believe that Archimandrite Sophrony &#40;Sakharov&#41; is held in reverence by many who knew him as well &#40;but our brethren in Great Britain might be more able to elaborate there&#41;. These men are no longer with us in body - but because of those who knew them, their spirit is still &#34;fresh&#34; in the world through our memories and their influence on our souls. Time will tell if this &#34;first blush&#34; will mature into a generally recognized veneration - but for now we can take the example of those recently departed who have lived near to us both in time and place.

Fr David Moser

[Olympiada]

Fr David I did not ask for the names of living saints, only modern saints and thank you for those two. I was given a couple of books by Archimandrite Sophrony and have a friend who attends his monastery. I think it is &#42;very&#42; important that we are tied to modern sanctity considering the utter despair of this present age. We need to know who lived through the modern wars, the modern despair, the modern zeitgeist to feel inspiration. I know I do. In Christ Olympiada Kane

[M.C. Steenberg]

The question over the place of virginity as a way of life, in the context of sexual desire which is not an unnatural or base element in humanity, needs also to be placed into the context that more broadly defines Christian life, namely asceticism.

The ascetical life that we see embraced and exemplified in the saints, and which we are called ourselves to embrace, is a life of sacrifice modelled on that of Christ. Asceticism does not function solely on terms of what is &#39;natural&#39; &#40;e.g. desires, wishes, abilities&#41;, but on terms of offering. The paradigm seen in the saints is not &#39;it is natural, so it is mine, so I will do it&#39;, but &#39;it is natural, so it is a gift, so I will offer it to God&#39;. This is exemplified in the words and actions of St Nonnus, raised earlier in this thread. On seeing the beautiful woman &#40;St Pelagia before her conversion&#41;, he does not deny her beauty, nor shun his own awareness and appreciation of it; but he sacrifices what might be a natural attention to these things, presenting them to God as an offering of his own instruction and humility.

Virginity, part of the title and topic of this thread, is seen in the saints as a particular kind, or context, of asceticism. Like all asceticism, it is not of itself a rejection of other contexts of living, certainly not a denigration of them, but primarily a way in which one responds to certain kinds of desires. Some of these desires are natural, some not. Part of the ascetical endeavour is to learn to distinguish the difference. But knowing the difference does not mean that one then follows on the natural desires: these may still be offered to God, sacrificed in love and in the desire for personal transformation.

The saints are certainly not without desires; but the fruit of discernment that comes through asceticism means that perhaps many do not experience desire as I experience it, for the ability to see authentic, natural desire as distinct from passionate, deformed desire, is an advanced spiritual state. Yet the clear witness of the saints is that the way to gain discernment is to live ascetically, which is first and foremost a manner of responding to desire -- all desire.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Matthew, So if I am reading this correctly, are you suggesting we offer our sexual desire as a gift to God to do with as He wills? In Christ Olympiada

[Alec Lowly]

Re so-called &#34;living saints&#34;:

Also venerable is the memory of Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh, 1914-2005, a leader of the Russian Orthodox Church &#40;MP&#41; in Great Britain. Memory eternal.

Alec

[Tim Grass]

Offering our desires and natures to God shouldn&#39;t be because we want Him to &#39;do something&#39; with them..... it should be because we love Him and meet His love with our love... offering &#34;what He has first given us.&#34;

--tim

[Aleksandar Zatezalo]

Just to contribute to the saints list
Link to the audio lectures
http://www.pigizois.gr/arxodariki/I n_English.htm (http://www.pigizois.gr/arxodariki/In_English.htm)
Listen to the incredible testimony about these contemporary saints

Elders of Our Days by Gerasimos Eymenios
Elder Iakovos Tsalikis
Elder Porfyrios

[Daniel Jeandet]

Olympiada, sorry I didnt answer your question, I didnt know you had asked a question of me until a few moments ago. I havent read the whole thread that followed, Im lazy. I trust the others helped you out with your question. I only know about men anyway...

Aleksander, thankyou forever for the link.

Please forgive me everyone for having been such an idiot with my recent posts &#40;I say this every Lent&#41;. Glory to God for you tolerent and kind ones. Be tough for the fast and rejoice. Please pray for me.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Olympiada,

Ask these important questions to our Lord.

Be PATIENT for a response.