Why 'All-Holy and Most Pure'?

[Elizabeth Maria]

An inquirer wants to know why we refer to the Virgin Theotokos as "All holy and Most Pure".

Please help me to explain this. He is from a protestant background where he was taught that Catholics and Orthodox worship Mary. This is a real stumbling block for him.

Thanks.

[Owen Jones]

Didn't you love your mother? Didn't you even have a certain reverence for the sacrifices she made on your behalf? You did not worship her as a god did you? So what is the problem? The Theotokos is our spiritual mother.

[Elizabeth Maria]

I guess I can ask him if it was mentioned in the Bible that the Archangel Gabriel had ever called anyone else "full of grace."

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

Dear Elizabeth Maria,

A protestant is used to process almost everything with his/her intellect.

Let us make a logical proposition:

Christ was the only Man (He is a God-man) who had the privilege to “choose” His mother. Why did He choose the Virgin Mary among all women? What was it that made her the appropriate mother for the Son of God?

The Orthodox answer is that she is the most worthy person of all humanity. And then after the conception of Christ she even surpassed her previous worthiness because she mediated in His incarnation and she was blessed by the Spirit beyond human measurement when “The Holy Ghost came upon her, and the power of the Highest overshadowed her” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:35;&version=9;).

If we say that she was not the most “something” from everyone else is against logic, even protestant logic. She had to be distinguished among other human beings.

The angel said: “Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:28;&version=9;)

Then when the Virgin visited her cousin Elizabeth “And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:40-42;&version=9;).

The Virgin answered behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed… (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:48;&version=9;%20“…For%20he%20hath%20regarded%20th e%20low%20estate%20of%20his%20handmaiden:%20for)

There were many blessed saints before the Virgin and there were many blessed saints after her, but who was chosen by God for a higher service than hers. The saints of the Old Testament and the saints of the New Testament are all depended from her mediation in the incarnation. It is a logical conclusion that the Virgin is the most holy of all of them because she served the highest cause of all.

Moses delivered the commandments, but she delivered the Son of God. The Apostles have spread the word of the Gospel, but she gave birth to the Word Himself. Whose ministry can be compared with hers ?

Of course we do not worship the Mother of Christ. We worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, ONE Triad of the same nature (homo-nature) and inseparable.

At the same time we honor and bless the Virgin, following the example of the Archangel and St Elizabeth’s when she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

[Marie-Duquette]

Leandros,
Most holy Theotokos save us!

As I read these posts, a question comes to mind with regards to your two opening sentences in post # 214 --

"A protestant is used to processing almost everything with his/her intellect.

and ...

"Let us make a logical proposition ..."

What is the difference between "processing with the intellect" and "making a logical proposition"

Isn't the intellect part of the mind as an organ of understanding? how does one make a logical proposition without using intelligence in a process of understanding?

Please forgive my short-sighttedness. When I pray, think, or ponder a text from Holy Scripture or from the Patericon, I believe that the Holy Spirit guides me to further or deeper understanding. Isn't this done or accomplished through a mind-in-heart process.

Where or how does FAITH come into play during this process of Understanding? or is this just simply knowing without understanding, accepting without further probing for the Truth?

I personally have no doubt that the Theotokos is "most pure" -- "immaculate Virgin-Mother of Jesus," but I do wonder about the difference that I mention above.

Thank you and God continue to bless us all through the prayers of the Theotokos.

marie_duquette

[Andrey Vershinin]

The Theotokos, is the link between God and man, because she gave birth to the only-begotten

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

What is the difference between "processing with the intellect" and "making a logical proposition"

There is no difference!

What I meant was: "A protestant is used to processing almost everything with his/her intellect. (so) Let us make a logical proposition ... (to communicate on the same level with him/her)"

My post was proposed in contrast to the rightful proposition of Owen Jones that, I think, is not understood by a protestant, as it is addressing the heart and not the logic. A protestant believes on the basis of a personal "relation" with God. Every other person must serve a "logical" function from outside of the relation. She/He can not accept a "mediator" (this is due to protestant anti-Vatican theology). So the first encounter with Orthodox theology must be considered on the basis of provided logical proves.

As for the faith-process of understanding issue, it is a big issue that needs a thread on its own.

God bless us, all.

[Marie-Duquette]

Thank you Leandros for clarifying my question.

as to the other question: the Faith-process of understanding, needing a thread of its own, I'm not sure of how to start such a thread.

A blessed Feast of Dormition of the Virgin Mary to you; and to all forum members.

Most Holy Theotokos intercede with God for us and save us!

[Kosmas Damianides]

An inquirer wants to know why we refer to the Virgin Theotokos as "All Holy and Most Pure".

Please help me to explain this. He is from a protestant background where he was taught that Catholics and Orthodox worship Mary. This is a real stumbling block for him.

Thanks.

Dearest Elizabeth,

I can understand why your friend would be quite repulsed by such terms, which by reason should technically be reserved for God alone, (ie. the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity) - who is THE Most Holy (Panagios or Hyper-Agios) and THE Most Pure (Panagnos or Hyper-agathos) par excellence.

These are all adjectives, epithets which the hymns and writings of the fathers of the Church use in reference to Panagia (Virgin Mary), but also to God. So why do we do this?
Obviously this is not intended to make the Virgin Mary equal to God, but to highlight the status of Mary in comparison,
not to God, but to all the other saints of the Church.

So Mary is believed to be the most holy of all the Saints, the most pure of all the Saints.

But the Adjectives 'Panagia' and 'Panagni' can also (perhaps more accurately) be translated as All-Holy and All-pure. This denotes the personal qualities of Mary and is not as compartive as the term "most".

Nevertheless, how do we make a Protestant see this? How do we explain that we do not believe that Mary is more Holy and more Pure than God? How do we explain that we are not Mario-latrous (ie. Mary worshippers)?

And on the other hand ; How do we convinvce a Protestant that Mary is very special and beyond coparison to any Saint who has lived, since she is the Theotokos, the God-bearer? She is the one who brought the Life into the World? She is the One who like the Mountain in Sinai was both purified and sanctified by the presence of God (Emmanuel).

In the scholastic mind, one may validly ask how can mere flesh and blood, or worldly substance be made All Holy, All Pure? "Take off thy sandals from thy feet for the ground you walk upon is Holy Ground!" (Exodus 3:5) God announced to Moses.

If mere ground, desert sand is treated with such reverence and fear, how much more the one who had God inside her for 9 months? How much more the one who was cleansed, purified and made holy by the Spirit of God?

Yes it is very hard to help your frind if they believe in a 'semi-Deistic' God. This requires a lot of prayer.

[Gilbert Gandenberger]

Care must be taken to make clear to any Protestant that a distinction is made between "adoration" worship which is reserved only for God, and "veneration" respect which is given to all people. We venerate the Blessed Virgin as most holy of all people. We worship God as the only source of all holiness, the only true God.

Unfortunately it is my experience that too many days I only venerate God, so to venerate a person does put them on the same plane as I where I have put God. The problem is not too much veneration to Mary, but too little adoration of God. May I be saved from this!