Paraclesis service

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Hi

Lately a friend has been arguing me about the Paraclesis Service. He states (as a Protestant) that you don't need the Virgin Mary to intercede to Christ for our health, but that we should ask Christ directly, implying that the Service should be one focused on and requesting physical and spiritual healing from Christ Himself.

How do I respond?

[Olga]

You might find this analogy useful: In ancient times, the king or emperor, of course, was the final judge of the people, or the final source of appeal for those convicted of a crime. If the ruler's mother was alive, she would occupy an exalted position, often co-enthroned, due to her being the king's mother, though not ruling in her own right. It was common practice for appeals to be made to the dowager queen or empress, as she was regarded as having "the ear" of the king, and could well influence him in his decisions.

It can be said that the Orthodox regard the Mother of God in such a way: she is not divine, she is not one of the Holy Trinity, but, as she is the mother of Christ, she has the "maternal boldness", a phrase so often heard in the hymnody referring to her, to petition to her Son and God on humanity's behalf. Think of the miracle at the wedding in Cana. Christ at first asserts His authority over His mother, by saying to her: "My time is not yet here", in effect, overriding her suggestion to do something about the lack of wine. Later, after considering His mother's request, He duly performs the miracle, likely as much out of respect for His mother. After all, it's hard NOT to do what your mother tells you to do, even though you might not want to do it at first!
http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
There is also a series of eirmi sung during feasts of the Mother of God which follow a pattern, where they begin with: "I will open my mouth, and and it will be filled with the Spirit, and I will utter a word to the Queen and Mother...."

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Following along with Olga's example:

Don't we as Christians also turn to our own mothers for their help in our times of need? Would a Christian say, "I no longer need my mother- I turn my back on my mother- I have Christ?" Obviously not.

The Protestant attitude towards the Mother of God & saints comes from a misunderstanding about the Church as corporate mystical Body with Christ as Head & Body of the saints & believers. In effect Protestantism replaces the Church with the individual; it replaces being a member of the Body with Christ as Head with emotionalism & intellectualism which it directs at Christ.

To be a member of the Body takes increasing dying to oneself while on the contrary individualist Christianity leads to increasing preoccupation with oneself. And this perhaps is its greatest trap. It claims that in reaction to Roman Catholicism it regards Christ as King. But since in reality it makes the individual the criterion as to what the relationship with Christ really means then the 'king' is really oneself & not Christ. This is why western Christianity will always be renovationist in its essence even if it is 'conservative'- its whole basis is replacing the Church with an individualism which is prone to passion & instability.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Patrick Walsh]

As a former Lutheran, you could remind him that Martin Luther--a Roman Catholic priest and Augustinian Eremitic Monk before he became a reformer--never failed to do the Rosary every single day of his life until his death.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

feofil

[nurse-aid]

yes...i remember that old man Gehard...son of the Luteran priest...he trusted women and learn from her how to do sign of the cross in the name of Trinity....he belived that women...since he saw her first time...and never stop pushing attempts to meet and talk to her...

and that women never stop parying for that departed servant of the Lord.

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Anestis:

Your friend seems to have a misconception that is common among Protestants. When we ask the Mother of God to pray for us, we ask her to pray to Her Son and our God, very similarly to how we ask one of our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth to pray for us. I'm sure your friend would not be opposed to you asking him to pray for you, would he? Or would he instead refuse to pray for you and tell you to pray directly to Christ?

I think it is also important that your friend understands that Mary is not seen as a co-redemptrix as she is by some in the Roman Catholic Church. Moreover, it's important to understand that love is not limited or quantitative. In other words, loving and praying to the Mother of God does not mean that we love God less.

Aaron

[theotokodoulos]

Thrue the intercessions of the Theotokos ,Savier save us!!!

Please do not listen to him, he does not know Holy Scripture and holy Tradition!!!
God loves to save us and help us thrue the Theotokos!!

We sinners pray to her and she The ALLSINNLESS prays for us to God!!
Her prayers are very mighty ( perhaps allmighty)!!
Because God loves her sooo much, more than the whole universe and all saints togehter!!
God honers her because she honored him with her whole life and whole beeing!
God gloryfies her because she gloryfied him!!

And also Protestans prays one for another.
You hear them often say pray for me... I will pray for you..thrue your prayer and so on.
Do you see how blind they are!!
Sinners pray for sinners?
But it would not be allowed to ask Christs Allholy Mother to pray for us???
What a spiritual delusion!!
Do you not think that God will hear her prayers more than ours..She who is choosen bevor the ages to be his mother???
She who gave her life absolute him from her early age!!
By endless prayer, endless fasting, endless prostrations !!!!!
She who bore God!!
Dear AAron it is right we do not call her Co- Redemprtix, this is an roman -catholik terme but
in the Orthodox church we also say:

Allholy Theotokos save us!!(a person who saves is a Savier)
Open the doors of mercy...........because you are the Salvation of the christian race!!
the wonderworking icon (PSYCHOSOSTRIA)-Savier of Souls!!!

Akatist:

Rejoice, thou through hom the curse shall be bloted out!!
Rejoie, thou Resoration of fallen Adam!!
Rejoice,thou Redemption of th tears of Eve!!
Rejoice, thou through whom the creation os renewed!!
Rejoice, for thou preparest a haven four souls!!
Rejoice Oblation for all the world!
Rejoice, Favour of god to mortls!!
Rejoce, Opener of the gates of Heaven!!
Rejoice, thou throu whom Hades was laid bare!!
Rejoice, thou who redeemest from th credds of barbarism!!!
Rejoice, thou who dost rescue from the works of mire!!
Rejoice Uplifting of men!!
Rejoice, thou through whom transgression is annulled!!
Rejoice, Gate of Salvation!!
REJOICE, SALVATION OF MY FLESH !!

S. Anthimos said that the Theotokos is the Salvation of the world !!

We should not fall into wrong teachins because of the herodox !!
It is not wrong to call her Redemptrix in the right interpretion.
She is not a Redemptrix because she suffered under the cross!!
She saved and saves us thrue her prayers intercessions, guidings, enlightnings and so on..

In Christ
Alexander

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

In fact, the Church does understand the Mother of God as 'co-redemptrix', an idea evinced in one of the most common refrains issued to her: 'Most holy Mother of God, save us'. The Church also refers to her as 'Mediatrix [mesitis] with the Saviour'.

We have in this notion another instance of words, terms and ideas being 'heard' through other climates of interpretation. We mustn't say that the Church does not call Mary 'co-redemptrix' on grounds that such a title used in other bodies discords with Orthodox teaching; rather, we must come to understand what the term means in our own language and expression.

INXC, Matthew

[Marie-Duquette]

Where would each of us be if it were not for a "mother" who not only is birth-giver but nurturer, teacher, nurse, care-giver, guide and all else for her child. How much more the Theotokos, mother of Jesus, the Christ, and ours too, given to us from the Cross. "Woman, behold your son; son behold your Mother."

How can a person live without a mother? in the spiritual life, as well as the natural life; in the Christian Life, as well as into eternal life?

Honor, Respect, Reverence, Love and Remembrance to our Mother always.

marie_duquette

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Matthew:

While I would not argue with the substance of what you are saying--I know we agree on this--I would like to question your exact wording. Where in the hymnography of the Church or in any of the Patristic texts is the Mother of God referred to as "co-redemptrix"?

It is evident that she is frequently referred to as Mediatrix and we make many references to her asking her to save us or calling her the salvation of Christians. Nonetheless, I have not come across anything that explicitly calls her co-redemptrix although, if properly defined, I believe this term could be used. In any case, if our hymns do not use this term and our Fathers do not use this term, what is the point of using it in the modern theological situation we find ourselves in?

Forgive.

Aaron

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Aaron,

I am not aware off hand of any passage in the patristic corpus that uses the title 'co-redemptrix' of the Mother of God (or a Greek equivalent, as the term itself is a late Latin adjective). The linguistic habit of 'co-' prefixes is really a Latin phenomenon, never a strong habit in Greek. Should there be interest in locating something equivalent, it would likely be wise to start around the person of Germanos of Constantinople (8th century), though ‘of such there may not be’.

It is not my desire to argue that the Church should take up the language of 'co-redemptrix'; the point in my above message was that the concept of such a term is not foreign to the Church's teaching. One cannot be any more direct in asserting the Mother of God's co-operation in salvation than to cry 'save us' to her person.

What is more particularly needed is a widespread education of the Church's people as to what is meant by the realities of intercession and 'co-redemption'. Very regularly do we see explanations of the intercession of the saints, and the Church's prayers to the same, as 'not equivalent to their being saviours like Christ’, or ‘We ask them to intercede for us, not redeem us’. The latter statement is patently false; the former misleading. The Church teaches that all humankind is involved in the salvation of man. Christ is the one Saviour, he who enables and effects the transformation of death into life—but the ‘saving’ of the individual person is met up in the whole body of the Church. That which unites us to Christ who transforms, is that which ‘saves’. To petition a saint to ‘intercede’ for us is to petition salvation: to ask that this holy life advance our salvation by further drawing us to God.

In reality, all human persons are ‘co-redeemers’ of one another in the advance and growth of the Christian life, else there is little purpose to prayer for one another, for the dead, to spiritual insight. Salvation is a reality into which Christ, through his incarnation, has drawn the whole human reality and human family—in which that family takes not merely a passive, but also potentially an active part.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Theophesta:

In the Chalcedonian Orthodox tradition, we begin the Dormition Fast on August 1st and it continues until the feast day of the Dormition, August 15th.

Aaron

[Theopesta]

many thanks father of brother/ Aaron D. Warwick
and apologizies for not write in the suitable thread, I hope I am not be heavy gust

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

Where in the hymnography of the Church or in any of the Patristic texts is the Mother of God referred to as "co-redemptrix"?

Let me start in an unusual way, I am not changing the subject!

In ancient Greece there was implemented an ancient long distance messaging system: On top of the hills and of mountains there were installed 24 hours posts guards that used fire to transform coded light signals to communicate with another long distance corresponded post, which in turn repeated the signal to another one and so on. This signalling system was called “friktoria”.

After the increase of Christianity, the posts in the high places that were the messaging stations were replaced by monasteries. And guess what? The monasteries were devoted to the mother of Christ with the name “the Most Holy Saviour” (in greek “Panagia Sotira”) and they were called monasteries of “Panagia Sotira”. These monasteries were founded before the 9th century. Later on, the monasteries changed their names to Monasteries of Transfiguration of Saviour Christ (because they were located in high places).

In Greece one of the common names of the Mother of God is “Saviour”, among others.

So there is an (greek) Orthodox tradition to use the name of “Saviour” ascribed to the Mother of God, but this is done within an Orthodox Theological framework as both Dr. Steenberg and Aaron D. Warwick have already analyzed.

[Theotokodoulos]

God bless you all!!!

Thank you very much Leandros for this information, I did not know this!!
I only know that in Macedonia and grecee there are many old icons called Panhagia Psychosostria( Allholy Savier of Souls), and I think there are still some monasteries wich are dedicated to them!!

In Christ
Alexander

[Marie-Duquette]

"Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

[Vasilis Kirikos]

I add my voice to that of the prayer Marie Duquette

"Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

In Christ,

Vasilis Kirikos

[Vasilis Kirikos]

Re the remark that "in Macedonia and grecee there are many old icon" Let's not start another war...MACEDONIA IS PART OF GREECE . IT ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS SHALL BE. JUST AS VIRGINIA IS PART OF THE USA. When the Turks were forced out of Greece, they had to surrender the northern region last; this came about after WW I But Slavic people had migrated into that region and so Greece was able to only get back 60% of the original state of Macedonia. 40% of what was once originally part of the Greek state of Macedonia was kept by Bulgaria and Yugoslavia..the region in Yugoslavia had a name change to Vardarska. Later, with the clear intent of an excuse for invading Greece the Communist changed the name Vardarska to Macedonia..but that caused such a wave of action on the part of Greece they Tito was forced to change the name again (by the way, Macedonia is a Greek word) . Thessaloniki is the capitol now as it was in ancient times. The Slavic people did not arrive into that area of the world until long AFTER the state of Macedonia existed..about 1000 years after Alexander the Great. Some who live in the occupied regions of Macedonia claim they speak ancient Macedonian..but in reality they merely speak a dialect of Bulgarian..a not so old language to that region. The Greek names are older than the Slavic ones and most of them have their roots in ancient Greece. The Greek names of the towns in Macedonia are also mentioned in the Bible. A characteristic example is Thessaloniki. This city was founded in 315 bc by the Macedonian king Kasssandros and it was named after Alexanders' half sister - Thessaloniki. How could the Greeks change the name from Solun (as the Slavs claim) to Thessaloniki in 1912 if that was the original name? The name Thessaloniki is even mentioned in the bible by St Paul. Why did he address his letters (epistles) to the people of Thessaloniki and not the to the people of Solun? What about the Greek names of towns inside FYROM used during the Ottoman times? Did Greece change them as well? NO! Macedonia is and always was a part of Greece..Indeed, Macedonia is a state in Greece; just as New York is a state in the USA. Vasilis

[Owen Jones]

Free Macedonia Now! Who wants to enlist?

[Theopesta]

blessed celebration with the Dormation of the theotokos to all bezantine eastern orthodox family

I want to know why this celebration on the name of Dormation in the bezantine family.

http://www.homoecumenicus.com/ioannidis_pure_virgin.htm

in the coptic calender this is the feast in which the deciples fast to see her assumption as they not find her in the Tomb.

1- Tomas while returning from India in a cloud to see her before Dormation he see her assumption,

2- when he reatched Jursalim he knew with her dormation,

3- the desciples take him to the tomb, they not find her body, they not know if the jew came and took her body or what happened to her body,

4- Tomas said to them what he had saw,

5- they descided that they will fast till CHRIST reveal to them what happen,

6- after 15 they saw her assumped with her body to they Heaven (not heaven of heavens)

can I know why the difference?

I hope to you all blessed feast and holy litergy