Praying to the saints

[Johanna]

Dear Friends,

Could someone tell me if there is a particular way to pray to the saints? Is there a formal way to pray to them? Can you just speak to them as you would perhaps speak to your spiritual father or one of your brothers or sisters in Christ who are still on this earth? Do they hear you each time you pray to them, or are there obstacles that may block these prayers? Do only the saints pray for us or do other Christians who are reposed also pray for us? Forgive me for my ignorance and the multitude of my questions. If anyone can answer any of these questions, it would be of great help and much appreciated.

the ignorant one,

Johanna

[Daniel Jeandet]

Pray to the saints fervently, with bright hope and unwavering faith. Say whatever you like to the Saints, just be sure you speak as if they were present, because they are, and speak simply, as a child would speak to its most trusted and loving friends. Doubt blocks prayer. So does a scattered mind. Try not to pray limply, or with the fervour of the passions. Try to be clean and focused, concentrating on the words you speak without concern about different fears or doubts that may arise in the midst of your prayer. Anytime we stand at prayer the enemy will try to nulify its effectiveness by stirring up negative, restless, doubting or even blasphemous thoughts and images. Just ignore these, do not trust your own opinion on the quality of your own prayer, God knows the state of your soul and the purity of your intentions and it is He who grants us the abilty to pray, as long as we seek this gift, He will teach us how to pray one way or the other.

Prayer is hard work. Remember that the saints know better than we do how hard it can be and what a struggle it is to aquire it. The Fathers say that to pray to the saints is to imitate the saints. I often pray to The Prophet Daniel and St Xenia and of course, The Most Holy Mother of God. My method is to try to let go of every single doubt or feeling or irellevant thought (because the saints also battled these) and just stand up like a small child and speak straight from my heart to the saint as if they were right there with me and waiting to intercede the way a fireman is waiting in the station to quickly rush out and extinguish and flames that may threaten the life of a small child crying for help. His whole job is to just wait for the call and then respond. We may try to get through for some time and only connect intermitently or for one second out of an hour of struggle, but he hears the call and responds.

Sometimes I find myself trying to generate feelings or stir up a kind of emotion to add to the words of my prayer. I have found that if I quickly stop this and just return my attention to the words of the prayer and awareness of the Lord's and saints presence, I learn that this self-made feeling was poluting the prayer. When we begin looking to ourselves we forget God. All we need to seek is repentance and hope, held in tension, and focus on the words of the prayer, watching always for sneaky feelings and thoughts that try to invade and enclose us in the bubble of our opinion of ourselves and our prayer.

Forgive me for this overblown reply. Forgive me if I write like Im giving orders or intructions. Dont be scared or feel stupid to ask about spiritual life. The enemy has gained much groung in the hearts of men by discouraging questions like these. we should be happy and eager to discuss these things, we need to talk more about them. I think a great weakness of the Church is that often people are not taught to pray, they are just told to pray. I try to learn out of books. Life seems to me to be mainly about prayer, always learning what it is and how to do it.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Johanna,

As with all the prayers of the Orthodox Church, we must first say our "official" morning and evening prayers. The Jordanville Prayerbook has a section which enables one to pray to his patron saint specifically.

After we have said our usual prayers, we can then pray to our holy patron asking that he or she intercrede to God for us. In some Russian service books, there can be found appropriate prayers to be said to particular saints on their Feast Day.

One can read or chant the Troparion and Kontakion to his patron every day as well. It is fitting to gaze lovingly at the icon of your holy patron and ask him or her to watch over you and to inspire you to the good.

In our Lord,

Fr. A.

[Janice Chadwick]

Father bless,

Father, is there a specific way to word a prayer to a saint that isn't your patron saint? I've never seen a prayer in any of my prayer books (and I have 3 or 4 different ones), and I would like to do it correctly. Any help you (or anyone else) could give me on this, I would greatly appreciate it.

Kissing your right hand,

Katherine

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord,
Janice

God bless you!

I would say that you can chant the Troparion and Kontakion to the saint, and if there is no specific one, you can use the general ones. After that you can say "O Holy saint of God____, pray for me a sinner." Then you can make your own specific and personal prayer request to the saint.

Jordanvile puts out a small "Book for Commemoration," which contains the Pannikhida and Moleiben in English. A lay person can chant a moleiben leaving out the priest's parts, which basically are the exclamations. There are to be found in this book the prokeimenons, and readings for the sick, for travelling, etc.

This of course is much more specific, but can be used when you wish to pray most fervently to a saint. If course, if you can get a priest to serve for you, it too has its merits.

In Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[Richard McBride]

Blessed of the Lord Janice;
Re: your earlier question on praying to a Saint, I pass on this list of functions for which certain Saints are noted:

Saints for Prayerful Needs:
Copied From The St.John of Kronstadt Press

.................................................. .............................

For spiritual help, consolation and compunction:
St.Ephraim the syrian
St. Alex the Man of God
St. Seraphim of Sarov

For a good end to one's life:
Archannel Michael
St. Niphon, Patriarch of Constantinople

For captives and court cases:
St. Onuphrios the Great & St. Peter of Athos
St. George the Great-Martyr
St. Symeon the God-receiver

For help in distress, poverty, etc.:
St. Nicholas the Wonderworker
St. Martin of Tours, the Merciful
St. John the Almsgiver, of Alexandria
St. John of Kronstadt

Against the plague:
St. Haralampos
St. Marina the Great-Martyr
St. Bessarion of the Savior, Archbishop of Larissa

Against demons and witchdraft:
SS Cyprian & Justina
St, Theodore Sykeote
St. Mitrophan of Voronezh

For finding lost objects:
St. Phanourios the Great-Martyr
St. Menas the Great-Martyr of Egypt
St. Nicholas the New-Martyr

For deliverance from anger:
St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

For women in childbirth:
St. Eleutherius

For finding employment:
St. Xenia of Petersburg

For help in studies:
The Three Great Hierarchs: SS Basil the Great, John Chrysostom & Gregory the Theologian
St. Sergius of Radonezh
St. John of Kronstadt (esp. for difficulties in reading)
St. Nestor the Chronicler of the Kiev Caves
St. Justin the Philosopher


For church singers:
St. Romanus the Melodist
St. Theodosius of Chernigov
St. John Koukouzelis
SS Leonty & Geronty, Canonarchs of the Kiev Caves

For iconographers:
St. Luke the Evangelist
St. Alypius of the Kiev Caves
St. John of Damascus

For protection against thieves:
St. Gregory the Wonderworker of the Kiev Caves

For stone workers:
MM Florus & Laurus

For mariages:
MM Adrian & Natalia
SS Joachim & Anna

For chastity & help in carnal warfare:
St. John the Baptist
St. Demetrius the Great-Martyr
St. Moses the Hungarian
St. John the much-suffering
Martyr Theodore the Byzantine
Martyr Ignatius of Athos
St. Thomais
St. Martinian
St. Basil of Mangazea
St. Mary of Egypt
St. Joseph the All-comely
St. Susanna (of the Old Testament)
St. Anysia the Virgin-Martyr

For mental disorders:
St. Naum of Ochrid
St. Anastasia
St. Gerasimos of Cephalonia (for the possessed)
St. John of Kronstadt (who was noted in his lifetime for delivering the possessed)

For patient endurance of suffering:
St. Job the Much-Suffering
St. Eustathius Placidus & his family
The Holy 40 Martyrs of Sebaste (esp. in freezing weather)
St. Pimen the Much-suffering of the Kiev Caves

For meeting a difficult situation:
St. David the Psalmist

For deliverance from poisoning:
St. Anastasia the Deliverer from Potions

[Daniel Jeandet]

Thankyou Richard for this most excellent post. I am very happy you posted this list, I am going to print it out and use it often.

God bless you.

[irineu]

I would have to say (not because I practice personally..hehe) that one of the best prayers is that of the Athonite one, which Saint Kosmas of Eitolia tought people to say:

with an prayer rope at your left hand (103 knotes he proposed) you say: "Lord Jesus Christ Son and the Word of the Living God, with the Intersession of Holly and Virgin Theotokos Mary and of all your Saints have mercy upon me a sinner anf your unworthy servant", accompanying all these words by making the sign of the cross with the right hand and at the end by doing a metania (bow down) possibly before an icon.
He adivsed people to say that whole 103 kntoes every day.

I also advise that at the Saints part you can mention by name even a special saint you like.

The Jesus prayer has actually replaced with me (as little I pray) many other prayers, has made them "unnecessary"!

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

I said to a mate of mine who was interested in the Jehova witnesses' to try to explain to him about Lord have mercy and the saints, its like i am in a bad state, so when they see me they will pray to God for me to that i will have a form of grace through their prayers, and by their prayers i would be benefited, pray for my friend that he may see how orthodoxy is the true faith and that God may inspire him, he is orthodox, it has been a long time, i should contact him, his name is Antony mine is Harry, if im wrong sorry
In Christ

[Archbishop Constantin]

I am a newcomer and I appreciate your interests. The information of all of you on "praying to the saints" is interesting. The problem is that the last Ecumenical Council FORBIDS praying to the Saints. Therefore, NO ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN prays to anyone other than God in the Holy Trinity. With all others, who are not with us now, whether they are Angels, heroes of our Faith (i.e. Saints) or simply loved ones, who have passed on. With all these people, the only means of communication with them is through prayer, but we do not PRAY TO THEM. We ask them for their INTERCESSION (and also we pray for them) and since many of them have shown themselves to be instruments of God and the power and glory of God is manifest through them, in healings etc., we hope that God will hear them more than us sinners. Besides, even our loved ones, are now without a body and all of the care required for it and, thus, they have more time than us to spend in prayer. Dear Mr. Charalambos, as we are a strictly Missionary group, we are faced with these questions every day. In dealing with our estranged brethren on the subject of asking the intercession of the Saints, you will find the Protestants having a problem more with praying to "dead people", than praying to the Saints and it is very difficult for them to comprehend, even if you explain it in "modern" science fiction example of different warps, they cannot understand where do the souls of the departed dwell. It is due to the Jewish infuelce and their dwelling in the Old Testament so much. The Jews, also, had a very indetermined idea of the hereafter, that undefined Sheol, where "even God did not remember those who were there", to quote the psalmist. As for the Jehova's Witnesses, since they have no valid theology, it is more difficult yet, to make them understand anything. They simply are the American result of reading the Bible (especially the Old Testament) without any help (and especially the controversial book of Revelations). Being a cult, (fitting into the definition: "Reject or minimize the Divinity of Christ; give total and absolute obedience to your leader"), they have to follow their orders. They are neither well educated, nor informed. They are only coached to certain things that will make an impression to those, of weak nature, who are seeking for the "truth", or are simple people, deserted by the Roman Catholic Church, as we find it, day after day, in Latin America. One of the ways that I have found to "work" at times, is to invite them to prayer, instead of shutting the door. Pick a prayer of significance, such as the Trisagion Prayer ("O Hevanely King...", "Most Holy Trinity", the Lord's Prayer) and let them listen; answer any questions afterwards. If they have any sincere interest about their "faith", they will come back to you with questions. I feel that it would be a remiss if I did not make the observation that when it comes to the Virgin Mary, we ask for her intercessions, but we also pray for her, respecting, honoring and confirming her humanity. She is the only person who was spared the future judgment! Remember that after death, the only variable that can change our fate, is THE INFINITE MERCY OF GOD and in what measure he will bestow it upon us.
The blessings of of the Lord, may be upon all of you!
+ Arzobispo Constantino

[irineu]

Father my I ask that probably we pray to saints for intercession but not to adore/worship them. But, however, we pray to them, since many prayers call them by name and even call them personally to interfere personally in certain situations for certain problems!

is that right?


thanx

[Herman Blaydoe]

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. James 5:14-18

We know through testimony and witness that the saints in Heaven hear our prayers. How this happens is not known, perhaps the angels carry our prayers or perhaps they hear us through the Holy Spirit who hears all. At any rate, we do not WORSHIP the saints but we can ask for them to pray for us as righteous people. Asking the saints to intercede for us is no different than asking those around us to pray for us. Not all that we call prayer is "worship." If I am wrong I pray that you correct me....

Pray: to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

Holy Saint Herman, pray for me, a sinner.

Herman the simple

[Archbishop Constantin]

With our Brother in Christ Irineu's posting, we are getting away from the subject "Praying to the Saints" and we talk about prayer in general. The definition of prayer is the communication with God, by ourselves, or through the intercession of a saint, done in a reverend and humble manner. Ther are four reasons that one prays: (1) To praise God, because of being God and He is worthy of all praise, especially since He made a whole rank of Angels only for the purpose of praising Him ceaselessly; (2) To petition something, asking the granting of it, not according to our desire, but to His desire and at His timing; (3) To give thanks for goods received; (4) To complain about tardiness in God's action and His indifference to our sufferings. The last time that I said this, a lady interrupted me and shouted: "How distateful!" King David is doing an excellent job of complaining, and in fair measure, as a matter of fact and yet he was one of God's most beloved people. King David had a formula for his prayer to complain, which never got God upset or angry. His "trick" was: (a) Always, begin the prayer with a glorification and a praise to God, (b) then he proceeded with all of his complaints and poured out his heart and (c) he closed his prayer with another glorification to God. It is interesting that when Christ, our Lord and God and Savior, gave a model for prayer (at the Sermon on the Mount), known as the "Lord's Prayer", He followed precisely the same formula: "Our Father, who art in heaven.... Give us our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses...deliver us evil... For thine is the Kingdom and the power...". The answer is no, it not wrong to complain in prayer... In many Orthodox countries, such as Greece, where I came from forty eight years ago, the peasants ask a saint to intercede and they promise him a present. The present is never given to the saint, unless he earned it, with a fervent and strong intercession... To really appreciate complaining through prayer, look at the psalms. To see some of the presents given because of a Saint's intercession, go to any country chapel in the midst of the fields: you will see a fine rope strung below the saint's icon, with many hands and feet and chests and heads and eyes, offerings to that particular saint, hanging strung up in the rope below his icon, witnessing the saint's love for mankind and his very special and fervent intercession. Those offerings to the saint are proof that He has gained favor with God, who used him as His instrument, to manifest His glory and His power, through that saint...
+ Arzobispo Constantino

[irineu]

If I may continue with few points Father.

Again, as I said in my previous post, in many prayers (supplications) we call directly a certain saint that he might intervene personally in certain situations. I call this a prayer to the saint!

Now, this prayer is not directed to a siant, as to someone who has power in himself, outside of Grace of God, and who can help us beside the God's help, or because the saint is adding us into something that God didnt help us for.

No, this is what the protestnat havent understood, never!

Our prayer to the saint is WITHIN God, is a part of activation of His mercy through different means and ways, but, however, even when we prayer or even when we praise a siant, this is done For God's Glory and within God's grace, not as something in addition to His glory...

there fore we are Body of Christ and take part in His actions, whether alive or dead.


But again, we pray to saints...

for example: "iperaghia theotoke sosoni mas" (most holy mother of god save us); or we have paraclites for Theotokos and for saints where we directly ask their help AND intrecession, OR WE PRAISE THEM PERSONALLY AND DIRECTLY OR WE PRAISE GOD ALSO FOR GRANTING THEM SUCH GRACE.

In both cases are included a prayer, i.e conversation addressed to the saint or to God.

--------------

I am afriad that saying that we do not pray to saints, but for their intercession, it seems like we are saying that we cannot address ourselves directly to them, but only to God as to help us through the saints, which, however, again, is a way how to pray to the saints, but not the only one.

thanx father!

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Archbishop Constantin

Your Eminence, Blessed of the Lord Constantin

You bless us with your interest in the list, and we pray your special blessing upon us -- we who flaunt temerity by speaking as though we knew the meaning of the Word.

We appreciate your wisdom, and receive the admonition that we always recall that every prayer is directed toward the Lord, whether it be through the intercession of another or not.

Your Eminence, you mentioned that you were of the Patriarchy of Alexandria, but you failed to tell us which one.

Would that be under Pope Shenouda the III?

Or would it be under His Beatitude Petros VII?

Or indeed, is there another Patriarch of which I am unaware?

Since you serve a proud Patriarchy, I am sure you are anxious that we be not mistaken in your master, the master under the Master of All.

I pray for your blessing
richard mcbride

[Archbishop Constantin]

Monachos: Mr. Richard McBride

May this communication be for the glory of Christ, our Lord and God and Savior!

First of all, let me congratulate you for the knowledge of all the specializations of the heroes of our faith. Earlier this evening, I was discussing the specializations of certain saints and I was asked a very logical question: "How do you know that St. Nicholas is the protector of the travelers, especially sailors?" The only answer I could give was, that it was so, because my father told me so. I have learnt of the "specializations" of the saints while I was a child and I heard the adults talk. But in every country, the saints do not have the same specializations. One good example is that in Bulgaria, if someone loses something, they ask for the intercessions of St. Menas, while in Greece it is saint Phanourios, that is responsible for finding things, including husbands for old maids (???). In our home Parish, where I was baptized, dedicated to St. Theodore the Military Man, every year on the eve of his feast, after Vespers, all eligible young ladies are fighting to get a small envelope of kólyva, to place them under her pillow and with some luck and intercession from St. Theodore, she could dream of the one who was to sweep her off her feet. Actually St. Theodore was not ever a matchmaker. He merely appeared in a dream to a Bishop and told him of the pagans' plot to deceive the Christians by offering meat to them, that was offered as a sacrifice to an idol god. The saint recommended that the Christians boil wheat and eat it, thus avoiding the deceipt of the pagans.

Mr. McBride, your last name says to me that you did not hear about the specializations of the saints you are listing by listening to the adults talk. I would very much like to find a book that has all the saints and the specialization of each one. It will be a proof that our loved ones are now in the bosom of Abraham, waiting for the second coming. A proof that after death one is conscious and prays to God without ceasing. May God bless you for your zeal and your faith!

I don't know if it would be against the rules and if it is, I invoke ignorance, but I see no reason of not telling you and sharing with you, my experiences in life and my personal acceptance of Christ, many years after my baptism. I come from a family of members of the Judiciary Corps of Greece and I was a disappointment to my parents when I chose to become an engineer. I came to the USA and studied and became an engineer. For the love of a young American lady and the fact that she could not live in a country with a military junta, I gave up my idea of returning back and teaching other Greeks Engineering. Eighteen years after I graduated, I was confronted with the Call of the Lord and neither I, nor my late wife, or my two children, would dare say no to the One Who is above all things. The answer was "Yes!". My idea was to be a perpetual deacon and serve the Lord by serving His people. Three years after my ordination to the diaconate, I, literaly found myself to being ordained a Presbyter and afterwards, I was wandering how it all happened. Two weeks later, my wife was found with hodgkins disease; she fought it for three and a half years and was taken from this world to the heavenly courts, "...to a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness sorrow and sighing have fled away...". With both of my children at university, I asked for a transfer and served first in Wyomming and then in Ohio. Then I took a leave of absence and, finally, joined the clergy of the "former Exarchate of the Patriarchate of Alexandria", which was abolished by Nicholas VI after pressure from Istanbul and threats from Athens. Nicholas VI, of thrice blessed memory, foresaw the coming of problems and he continued to interface with the "former Exarchate". Bishops were ordained at his recommendation and other actions were taken to protect the Exarchate and the clergy. Finally in 1986 and shortly before he fell asleep, he gave autocephaly to this small group. I came into it in 1990 and soon thereafter I was elected and ordained to the Holy Espiscopate as Metropolitan of Florida. In 1991, the Holy Synod made a decision, at my recommendation, that USA and Canada had enough Orthodox Jurisdictions and that it was necessary for our survival, to become Missionaries and go preaching the word of Christ in Latin America and the Caribbean. I feel that it was a decision inspired by the Most Holy Trinity, for we have filled a gap that existed between the immigrants and the local people. Now, after our initial struggle, we have several Parishes and Missions, even though we are working in countries of classical political instability. We humbly thank, praise and glorify the Lord for choosing us to do this important work, however unworthy we may be. Glory be to His Holy Name!

I find Monachos.net to be an oasis of spirituality in a very materialistic world, yet the members are humble and faithful. Please keep up this work, which for us clergy is a hope and a light. Monachos ("monaxos") is a Greek word which means both "alone" and "monk". We may be alone, but we will never be lonely, for we have the Lord with us...

In Christ's Holy Name,

+ Arzobispo Constantino

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Praying to the Saints

Your Eminence, Blessed of the Lord Constantino

It was NOT my intention to presume upon your life's work, but since your work is in answer to the Call of the Lord, I pray that your mission prove to be fertile and provide the Lord with many Chrismated souls.

Unlike you, the Lord has blessed me with trials of humility, to which I may not be responding according to His wishes, but from which I have, at least, become convinced of their need. I thank the Lord for every trial; for my heart is too hard to 'hear' his otherwise quiet soft voice. At one point I thought that He no longer wanted me to serve in the Altar, but He refused to let me off so easily. So, now I cut bread, and pray to be forgiven the mountain of sins I have accumulated.

But dear master Constantino, since you bring it up, I am curious about who ordained you. Was that by the Synod under which you now serve? There are so many of these synods floating around, and in this country some of them have produced strange and unhealthy complications.

I serve under Metropolitan Esaias, appointed by the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartolomeo, at Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas, as a mere sub deacon. [I say 'serve', for it is not by the wish of Metropolitan Esaias that I do so -- having been tonsured by Bishop Antoun of Antioch -- but simply because the Metropolitan has not kicked me out of the Altar, yet.] So, my career is notable only for going in the opposite direction of your worthy efforts.

I beg your blessing, your Eminence

richard mcb

[Irene]

Saints for Prayerful Needs:
Copied From The St.John of Kronstadt Press

For deliverance from poisoning:
St. Anastasia the Deliverer from Potions

We have done a general molieben after Church to St Anastasia for those suffering from Alcoholism and Drug dependancies as well, I guess they are types of poisons....

In Christ
irene

[Scott Pierson]

We have done a general molieben after Church to St Anastasia for those suffering from Alcoholism and Drug dependancies as well, I guess they are types of poisons....

wow, i never knew that about Saint Anastasia. I happend to find a large icon of St Anastasia at a garge sale and I have a few people I know who are struggling with drug adiction and I was praying to her to free them all long without even knowing that. I have the Icon on a table by itself with some candles and bible off to the side of my normal prayer corner and I always go over their and pray for my friends who are suffering from drug adiction.

[Irene]

wow, i never knew that about Saint Anastasia. I happend to find a large icon of St Anastasia at a garge sale and I have a few people I know who are struggling with drug adiction and I was praying to her to free them all long without even knowing that. I have the Icon on a table by itself with some candles and bible off to the side of my normal prayer corner and I always go over their and pray for my friends who are suffering from drug adiction.

Hi Scott, That was pretty lucky picking up the icon at a garage sale. I think perhaps you were meant to find it :) When I stopped going to Church completely for a few years, I was volunteering at a charity shop, one day out of the blue, there was an Icon of the Theotokos in amongst all the donated books. I asked the boss if I could buy it and then I remembered it was the feast day of my Saint. That started me on the chain of events that brought me back to Church.

I did a quick search to see if there were any online akathists or canons to St Anastasia and didn't find any. I did find a couple of sites that here (http://www.odox.net/Orthodox-Piety-Saints.htm) and here (http://www.saintbarbara.org/faith/prayerlife/prayer_saints.cfm) list her also for mental disorders which is interesting, I supposed that would include depression and anxiety? A couple of people that I know of that suffer from alcoholism are definitely suffering from depression and anxiety as well.

You should ask her to pray for you too because when we have friends and relatives who are addicts we need all the strength we can get.

In CHrist
irene

[Scott Pierson]

When I stopped going to Church completely for a few years, I was volunteering at a charity shop, one day out of the blue, there was an Icon of the Theotokos in amongst all the donated books. I asked the boss if I could buy it and then I remembered it was the feast day of my Saint. That started me on the chain of events that brought me back to Church.

Thats awsome. Its always amazing when things seem to just fall into place like that and you know God is watching over you .



You should ask her to pray for you too because when we have friends and relatives who are addicts we need all the strength we can get.


I do.

[Paul Cowan]

Alcoholism = Icon of the Inexhaustible Cup

http://www.antiochian.org/1103412970
http://www.stjohndc.org/russian/Theotokos/e_InexChalice.htm

This icon is also wonderful to pray through for other addictions of all sorts.
Paul

[Athanasios Walter]

Where can I get information regarding praying to the Saints, either from the Holy Scripture or the Early Church Fathers? I can find many references to it today, but have not being able to easily find one with the early Church. I wish I had all the writings where I can do a search.

I did find one or two tho, but they speak against praying to the dead, because there is a great gulf between us, and some other reason I can't remember. I think it was Ireneaus or Justin Martyr, but again, I don't remember which one. But the reference I got this from was from a Protestant book, so it is possible it was taken out of context.

[Paul Cowan]

But the reference I got this from was from a Protestant book, so it is possible it was taken out of context.


Most assuredly.
We don't pray to the Dead. God is the God of the living. They won't be 'dead' until the Final judgement, and then even then they will live in eternity with or without Him.

PC

[Athanasios Walter]

Most assuredly.
We don't pray to the Dead. God is the God of the living.I certainly agree with this, that they're not dead. Jesus made this quite clear.

I was interested in references from the early Church Fathers talking about praying to the Saints. Unfortunately, I don't have an easy way to search this, and was hoping others had references.

And if there are bible passages, that would be great.

When I find the other references I read some time ago, I will post it here. Hopefully the whole context, rather than a snippet of what I read, will be fully explained by someone who has full access to it.

[Athanasios Walter]

They won't be 'dead' until the Final judgement, and then even then they will live in eternity with or without Him.Bold is mine. You mean the 2nd death, and only for those who rejected God?

[Nina]

I was interested in references from the early Church Fathers talking about praying to the Saints. Unfortunately, I don't have an easy way to search this, and was hoping others had references.
And if there are bible passages, that would be great.


Christ is Risen!

Dear walterquez,

This is something that Dr. Prof George Bebis (Professor of Patristics of Holy Cross) wrote:

"THE INTERCESSION OF THE SAINTS


http://www.goarch.org/imagesrx/imgrx018.jpg Mosaic Icon of St. George
The fact that Christians ask the prayers of saints and their intercession is prefigured in the New Testament. St. Paul asks the Christian Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians and Romans to pray for him (Ephes. 6:19, 1 Thesal. 5:25; Colos. 4:3, and Rom. 15:30-31). In every Liturgy, we ask God the Father to accept, on our behalf, "the prayers and the intercession" of all the Saints who now live in heaven. The Fathers of the Church also accept as a matter of course the prayers and the intercession of all the saints.

In one of his letters, St. Basil (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God (Letter 360). Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that "they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers" (Chapter 8). St. Gregory of Nyssa (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) asks St. Theodore the Martyr "to fervently pray to our Common King, our God, for the country and the people" (Encomium to Martyr Theodore). The same language is used by St. Gregory the Theologian in his encomium to St. Cyprian (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html#Cyprian). St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44:2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).
THE VENERATION OF THE SAINTS

In the Orthodox Church the worship (latreia) given to God is completely different from the honor (tim) of love (agape) and respect, or even veneration (proskynesis), "paid to all those endowed with some dignity" (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. III, 40). The Orthodox honor the saints to express their love and gratitude to God, who has "perfected" the saints. As St. Symeon the New Theologian writes, "God is the teacher of the Prophets, the co-traveller with the Apostles, the power of the Martyrs, the inspiration of the Fathers and Teachers, the perfection of all Saints ... " (Catechesis, I).

Throughout early Christianity, Christians customarily met in the places where the martyrs had died, to build churches in their honor, venerate their relics and memory, and present their example for imitation by others. Interesting information on this subject derives from the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (gopher://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:3333/00/Religious/ChurchWriters/ApostolicFathers/Martyrdom_Polycarp) (ch. 17-18), according to which the early Christians reverently collected the remains of the saints and honored them "more than precious stones." They also met on the day of their death to commemorate "their new birthday, the day they entered into their new life, in Heaven." To this day the Orthodox have maintained the liturgical custom of meeting on the day of the saint's death, of building churches honoring their names, and of paying special respect to their relics and icons. The Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.), in summarizing this practice of the Church, declares that "we adore and respect God our Lord; and those who have been genuine servants of our common Lord we honor and venerate because they have the power to make us friends with God the King of all."
The feast days and the celebrations honoring the saints had become a common practice by the fourth century. The twentieth canon of the Council of Gangra in Asia Minor (between the years 325 and 381) anathematizes those who reject the feast days of the saints. So great was the esteem in which the Apostles, prophets, and martyrs were held in the Church, that many writings appeared describing their spiritual achievements, love and devotion to God.
Together with the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (gopher://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:3333/00/Religious/ChurchWriters/ApostolicFathers/Martyrdom_Polycarp) , information on the veneration of the Saints derives from the Martyrdom of the Martyrs of Scilli, a small town in North Africa (end of the second century). The list of sources indudes St. Athanasius' Life of St. Anthony (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/NPNF2-04/c10.1.htm); St. Basil's Homily honoring the "Forty Martyrs"; Gregory of Nyssa's Homily honoring St. Theodore; St. John Chrysostom also delivered a considerable number of sermons dedicated to the Martyrs of the Church.

http://www.goarch.org/imagesrx/imgrx015.jpg RELICS OF VARIOUS SAINTS AND MARTYRS

The Fathers, and all early Christians in general, paid especially great respect to the relics of the martyrs. In addition to the sources already mentioned, Eusebius of Caesarea (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/), the Church historian, says that "those who suffered for the glory of Christ always have fellowship with the living God" (Church History, 5:1). In the Apostolic Constitutions (5:1) the martyrs are called "brothers of the Lord" and "vessels of the Holy Spirit." This helps to explains the special honor and respect which the Church paid to the relics of the martyrs. St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/), and St. John Chrysostom (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) remind us that the relics of the martyrs "are filled with spiritual grace," that even their tombs are filled with a special "blessing." This Patristic practice still continues today, and people from all over the world visit churches that possess the relics of martyrs and saints. Also, according to the ancient tradition, the consecration of new churches takes place with the deposition of holy relics in the Holy Table of the sanctuary."

If you would like to read the entire article please follow this link (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp)

[Paul Cowan]

Bold is mine. You mean the 2nd death, and only for those who rejected God?

I will be the first to back peddle to allow a corrected answer to be offered. It is my understanding when we physically die we are subject to the first or general judgement. We either go to Paradise or Hades.

At the 2nd or Final Judgement we are rewarded to Heaven or condemned to Hell. Our life here on earth is our only allottment for confession and repentence of sins. After we are dead, it's all over except for GRACE God MAY show to us. Prayers to the departed by loved ones may turn His favor towards us. But once dead we have no more say in the matter.

For some to say

only for those who rejected God
I believe is incorrect. When Christ went to Hades to set the captives free he was preceded by St. John who announced His coming. I think that was the only place there was a choice to believe in Him and get out of Jail free card. I cannot imagine any being there who when they heard He was coming did not believe. Though it is possible some did choose to stay. (possibly Pharoah?)

Now that mankind has had the opportunity to know about Christ, we do not have the luxury of sinning all we want here, die and later deciding to accept Him as God. Today is the time to accept Him. Today we must repent and be reconciled.

God will judge the earth and those in it. By His grace alone believers and unbelievers will be saved. Not by their choice during the Judgement.

In Christ
PC

[Mary]

Thank you, to whoever it was who 'resurrected' this thread! I particularly found post #6 to be extremely useful.

We suffer from anger in this household and a few days back, I asked St Tikhon for help, since it says in that list that he is invoked for deliverance from anger. Needless to say, his answer was swift and much deeper than I imagined it would be!

Christ is Risen!

Mary.

[Anthony]

Yes, that is a useful list, and thanks also to Nina for posting the article.

Is there a particular saint who it is appropriate to give thanks to after escaping from some danger? A friend of mine and her little daughter were recently fortunate to escape from a fire in their block of flats.

Anthony

[Athanasios Walter]

Christ is Risen!

This is something that Dr. Prof George Bebis (Professor of Patristics of Holy Cross) wrote:Thank you. I just got back from a trip. I will read what you posted.

[Nina]

Is there a particular saint who it is appropriate to give thanks to after escaping from some danger? A friend of mine and her little daughter were recently fortunate to escape from a fire in their block of flats.
Anthony

Christ is Risen!

Thank God for your friend and her daughter!!!

Maybe someone else does know the answer to your question about a particular Saint. Since I do not, I would assume she should thank God, Panagia, guardian angels, personal Saint and any other Saint the family is fond of.

[Olga]

There are strong traditions, particularly in the Slavic world, invoking Prophet Elijah/Elias in protection and deliverance from fire (as well as drought).

[Anthony]

Thank you, Nina and Olga; these are both very valuable suggestions.

[Antony Solomon]

This is an interesting thread, thanks for the advice and testimonies.

Two questions if I may (feel free to point to an existing thread)

1. Does it matter if you have no idea who the saint is you are asking to help?

2. How does one find out one's patron saint, or such?

[Antony Solomon]

Thank you, to whoever it was who 'resurrected' this thread! I particularly found post #6 to be extremely useful.

We suffer from anger in this household and a few days back, I asked St Tikhon for help, since it says in that list that he is invoked for deliverance from anger. Needless to say, his answer was swift and much deeper than I imagined it would be!

Christ is Risen!

Mary.

I will bear this in mind, since it is one of my troublesome sins.

[Nina]

1. Does it matter if you have no idea who the saint is you are asking to help?

I do not think it does... however it is helpful spiritually to create a relationship with the Saint. In times of distress, or need you know where to run to and whom to call for help. The Theotokos is a very quick hearer and helper.


2. How does one find out one's patron saint, or such?You receive this when baptized and the Godparent is supposed to choose your name, hence the patron Saint. If you are becoming Orthodox as an adult you may choose a Saint that you may be fond of and impressed by his/her spiritual achievements (and receive his/her name); you may choose a Saint that is celebrated on, or around your birthday etc. It is always helpful to read their lives and be inspired. Your patron Saint along with your guardian Angel intercede constantly for your salvation.

P.S Speaking of Bdays; is it your birthday today? If yes: Happy Birthday!!! :)

[Antony Solomon]

I do not think it does... however it is helpful spiritually to create a relationship with the Saint. In times of distress, or need you know where to run to and whom to call for help. The Theotokos is a very quick hearer and helper.
You receive this when baptized and the Godparent is supposed to choose your name, hence the patron Saint. If you are becoming Orthodox as an adult you may choose a Saint that you may be fond of and impressed by his/her spiritual achievements (and receive his/her name); you may choose a Saint that is celebrated on, or around your birthday etc. It is always helpful to read their lives and be inspired. Your patron Saint along with your guardian Angel intercede constantly for your salvation.

P.S Speaking of Bdays; is it your birthday today? If yes: Happy Birthday!!! :)


Thanks for the info, and the wish. ___ <--- assume there is a nice smilie here, as i can't see any of the graphics on this site.

[Mary]

This is an interesting thread, thanks for the advice and testimonies.

Two questions if I may (feel free to point to an existing thread)

1. Does it matter if you have no idea who the saint is you are asking to help?

2. How does one find out one's patron saint, or such?

The world of Saints is indeed wonderful and exciting, and I felt like I had to make up for lost time - all those years when I could've asked them to intercede for me... But I've realized that it takes time to get to know about all of them. And regardless of how many stories you read, some stick with you better than others.

Until you get to know the saints better, you can always pray to the folks in the Bible stories that you were always fond of. When I asked my friend which saint I should pray to regarding my stubborn and rebellious spirit, he suggested the Prophet Jonah! =) I had gotten so carried away with saints that I forgot about the Prophet Jonah. Every thing he did and said, is so exaclty what I would've done and said. I think my favorite verse in the Bible is:

Jonah 4:9 " But God said to Jonah, 'Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?' 'I do,' he said. 'I am angry enough to die.' " Oh, how many times I've said the same thing, believed I have the right to be angry, and been angry enough to die! =) (or kill...)

I used to meet with a bunch of other moms and we prayed for our kids. At one meeting, the mother who was leading, read the story of Daniel and his Friends, and she was impressed with Daniel's wisdom and his resolve not to defile himself with the food of the king. She wanted to pray that our children would be wise like him. This was still while we were catechumens, and I thought - "Hey, just ask Daniel to pray for our children..." I didn't want to freak them out, so I held my tongue. But it did get me thinking about all my favorite folks in the Bible. Inspite of the fact that I knew they were real, they were still just characters in a story, until I became orthodox...

So far, my favorite is St John the Baptist. My little girl was afraid of being baptised - she was 4 - old enough to resist, too young to be in charge of the final decision. And we prayed to St John to prepare her. I was so surprised when I found out that the date for the children's baptism turned out to be the nativity of St John the Baptist! (June 24). My little girl, was not afraid at all. I was sure that St John was in the water with her. =)

In Christ,

Mary.

[Andrew]

I do not think it does... however it is helpful spiritually to create a relationship with the Saint. In times of distress, or need you know where to run to and whom to call for help. The Theotokos is a very quick hearer and helper.
You receive this when baptized and the Godparent is supposed to choose your name, hence the patron Saint. If you are becoming Orthodox as an adult you may choose a Saint that you may be fond of and impressed by his/her spiritual achievements (and receive his/her name); you may choose a Saint that is celebrated on, or around your birthday etc. It is always helpful to read their lives and be inspired. Your patron Saint along with your guardian Angel intercede constantly for your salvation.

P.S Speaking of Bdays; is it your birthday today? If yes: Happy Birthday!!! :)

A person has a patron saint, a family patron saint (slava), and other saints one feels close to. For converts, it's a little more difficult because we sort of have to pick them out; but really, they pick us out! It's a strange dynamic, but a very blessed one. There are some saints that truly feel like family, and you know they look out for you in a very real way. Alongside the officially recognized saints are the modern saints, the reposed righteous and elders, who one can also feel an affinity for, and seek their intercession. This same sort of relationship also seems to come out of the relationship between a person and his spiritual father; when the spiritual father dies, the link is not severed. I am sure our beloved Fr. Seraphim could tell us more about this mystery.

[Nina]

Oh, I found an amazing quote pertaining this thread, that I would love to share with you all!

What Does It Mean To Believe In The Church? Thoughts About the Church and the Orthodox Divine Services

By St. John of Kronstadt

"Acknowledge that all the saints are our elder brothers in the one House of the Heavenly Father, who have departed from earth to heaven, and they are always with us in God, and they constantly teach us and guide us to eternal life by means of the church services, Mysteries, rites, instructions, and church decrees, which they have composed—as for example, those concerning the fasts and feasts—, so to speak, they serve together with us, they sing, they speak, they instruct, they help us in various temptations and sorrows. And call upon them as living with you under a single roof; glorify them, thank them, converse with them as with living people; and you will believe in the Church."

[Paul Cowan]

I have read this thread cover to cover so to speak. I still don't know how to pray or ask intercessions to a saint. I was recently told to pray to St. Xenia of St. Petersburg for intercession. After about 1 sentence, I am done. It just doesn't seem right to be done that quickly. I really want to do as St. Seraphim of Sarov told his nuns when he died; "Come talk to me as if I were standing before you".

He told them to just talk to him. How does one get to that point? Is this done audibly or within ones' own mind? I have tried to talk to God in the car out loud. I don't say too much and what I do say is pretty, dumb. suggestions?

Paul

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have read this thread cover to cover so to speak. I still don't know how to pray or ask intercessions to a saint. I was recently told to pray to St. Xenia of St. Petersburg for intercession. After about 1 sentence, I am done. It just doesn't seem right to be done that quickly. I really want to do as St. Seraphim of Sarov told his nuns when he died; "Come talk to me as if I were standing before you".

He told them to just talk to him. How does one get to that point? Is this done audibly or within ones' own mind? I have tried to talk to God in the car out loud. I don't say too much and what I do say is pretty, dumb. suggestions?

Paul

Short phrases are alright. We can use the verse found in the moleben; for example 'Holy Blessed Xenia pray to God for us'. Using a prayer rope helps to make this into a continuous prayer- it's very common for example to do 100 of such prayers on the rope instead of a service.

Alternatively though you could also say an Akathist to that particular saint or have a moleben to that saint said by your priest.

Often we end up doing everything together- personal prayer, lighting a candle before the saint's icon, asking to have a moleben served.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Christina M.]

I have read this thread cover to cover so to speak. I still don't know how to pray or ask intercessions to a saint. I was recently told to pray to St. Xenia of St. Petersburg for intercession. After about 1 sentence, I am done. It just doesn't seem right to be done that quickly. I really want to do as St. Seraphim of Sarov told his nuns when he died; "Come talk to me as if I were standing before you".

He told them to just talk to him. How does one get to that point? Is this done audibly or within ones' own mind? I have tried to talk to God in the car out loud. I don't say too much and what I do say is pretty, dumb. suggestions?

Paul

Paul, I've had the same problem as you. Personally, for most of my life I have had a lack of zeal to pray to the saints for help. Then I realized that whenever I would read the lives of the saints, I would feel a great fervor to continue asking them for help. For example, after reading the life story of St. Nectarios, I would pray frequently to him, and after reading the life-stories of contemporary holy people, I would pray frequently to them. Especially whenever I'm having a big problem, it's those saints whom I have learned about who I always ask for help.

I would find it difficult, for example, to pray to St. Xenia without first learning her life story. Analogously, I would find it difficult to walk up to someone I didn't know and ask them to pray for me, whereas if I learn beforehand that they have lived a holy life and that they are close to God, even if I had not met them before, I would still be very inclined to get their blessing. I'm not saying that it's wrong to pray to saints who we don't know the life-stories of (since if the Church calls them Saints, we know that they all are close to God). . . I'm just saying that for those of us who are lacking a zeal to ask the saints for help, I think it's very beneficial to study their life-stories. If someone doesn't have time for reading, they could alternatively listen to homilies of their life stories, as I know there are some good ones out there in MP3 format.

Once we have this initial zeal to pray more frequently to the saints, then we realize how much help they give us, and in a mystical way we feel very comforted by their presence, which makes us want to pray more frequently*to them. Whereas if we don't pray enough to them then we are missing out on these blessed experiences, and they would be difficult for us to comprehend. Hence praying to them will teach us better how to pray to them, since God "gives prayer to the one who prays" (I Sam 5:9).

In regards to talking to God in the car and not knowing what words to say, my spiritual father told me that it's best to just say the Jesus Prayer at times like those. If we don't feel like saying the Jesus Prayer, then if we just force ourselves in the beginning to say it, it will soon (with the grace of God) become very easy for us, and we will get to the point where we don't want to stop. I believe that someone who practices the Jesus Prayer frequently ends up preferring that simple prayer over "freestyle" prayer, except in the times when he needs specific help for a specific problem. But of course everybody is different.

[Paul Cowan]

Short phrases are alright. We can use the verse found in the moleben; for example 'Holy Blessed Xenia pray to God for us'. Using a prayer rope helps to make this into a continuous prayer- it's very common for example to do 100 of such prayers on the rope instead of a service.

Alternatively though you could also say an Akathist to that particular saint or have a moleben to that saint said by your priest.

Often we end up doing everything together- personal prayer, lighting a candle before the saint's icon, asking to have a moleben served.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Fr. bless,

I have the Akathist to St. Xenia. 1) What does this service like in church rather than just reading it prayerfully at home? 2) What exactly is a moleben and 3) what does that look like? 4) Do not these two services put more work on the priest if I ask him to perform them and 5) under what circumstances should I ask them to be served? Sorry for all the questions. 6) What chanter support will he need and 7) do I need to get a chanter or two there as well or 8) can he do it himself? I am good with bullet point answers if you prefer. Thanks

Paul

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr. bless,

I have the Akathist to St. Xenia. 1) What does this service like in church rather than just reading it prayerfully at home? 2) What exactly is a moleben and 3) what does that look like? 4) Do not these two services put more work on the priest if I ask him to perform them and 5) under what circumstances should I ask them to be served? Sorry for all the questions. 6) What chanter support will he need and 7) do I need to get a chanter or two there as well or 8) can he do it himself? I am good with bullet point answers if you prefer. Thanks

Paul

1. In church the Akathist can be done with priest(s) chanting the various Ikos & Kondaks and the choir repeating the last line of each. Or the choir can sing the entire Akathist to a special melody.

2. It is a special service of intercession to Christ, the Theotokos or the saints; it can also be for thanksgiving; or many other purposes also (even blessing fields, bees, etc).

3. Impossible to describe- you'd have to see it in action.

4. Yes- but that's what we're here for:).

5. In times of need.

6. Can be done with just the priest; moleben is much easier alone, but the akathist is possible. Ask for a moleben to begin with.

7 & 8- see #6.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

Fr Raphael is pretty complete, however, if I might expand upon a couple of his answers.



2. It is a special service of intercession to Christ, the Theotokos or the saints; it can also be for thanksgiving; or many other purposes also (even blessing fields, bees, etc).

A molieben is literally a "prayer service". It varies widely in form however in its more "complete" (whatever that means) form it is modeled on daily matins with an opening psalm (not 6) and a litany followed by "God is the Lord". Then troparia with theotokia, the 50th psalm and a canon (usually only the refrains are sung) with sedalia after odes 3 & 6. After 6 there may also be a gospel reading. After 9 the trisagion is repeated, the tropar and the triple litany. After the litany a special prayer may be added to the saint or for the particular need from the book of needs. After this the dismissal. It is also customary to sing the "Many Years" for the person on whose behalf the molieben is offered. Of course this structure can be modified and shortened all the way down to the blessing, the trisagion and maybe a tropar, the special prayer the dismissal (not unlike say the theophany house blessing). I have seen all kinds of variations between these two "extremes".


4. Yes- but that's what we're here for:).

This is also why it is customary to offer the priest an extra gift when he does these occasional services - you are asking him to do something "above and beyond" his regular duties and to show your appreciation that he is willing to do this, it is good to offer a gift (usually monetary, but not always - for example last time I did a pannykhida I was given the remainder of the bottle of vodka that was used afterward to toast the memory of the departed)


5. In times of need.

This need not be catastrophic need - but can be a personal need that is more urgent than usual. Also there is a thanksgiving molieben that can be said as an expression of gratitude for an answer to prayer.



6. Can be done with just the priest; moleben is much easier alone, but the akathist is possible. Ask for a moleben to begin with.

For the most part you yourself can assist in chanting or singing the responses. The priest himself may ask the parish reader to be present and help out

Fr David

[John Bundstein]

I am happy to see this thread has already been revived. I noticed several mentions of a Saint Anastasia
in the thread, I am aware of two saints by that name which one is being refered to here? I am interesed for a couple of reasons.

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Frs. Rapheal and David. I will ask my priest about serving these.

Paul

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

If you are present during a house blessing this is a very abbreviated moleben. (that's why my answer was so brief yesterday- I had to leave soon to bless homes).

In Christ- Fr Raphael