Veneration of the saints

[Andrew Latz]

Wondered if people could explain veneration of the Saints a bit more, especially Mary and her place in the scheme of things.

Also: is it true that praying and lighting candles before ikons transmits grace to the pray-er from the ikon?

Thanks

[A Desert Aspirant]

Andrew,

You ask about praying and lighting candles before icons -- if that transmits any grace to the person praying.

Often grace descends (or wells up in our spirits noticeably) according to the degree of focused devotion we have at the moment. What is in your heart when you rever can make a difference. A person's sincerity and humility of soul is seen by God, and He responds.

Note I say "often" because God can, if He wishes, pour out abundant grace upon us anytime He wants, in order to get our attention and lead us to Him. But usually our attentive, heartfelt devotion is what helps.

Sometimes the graces can be felt immediately. Sometimes a fulfilled prayer later will let us know of the grace transmitted.

These are things we grow more sensitive to with time. Mostly we learn it through experience, and those experiences are confirmed through our reading or through consulting another who is learned spiritually.

Jesus advised us to rid our hearts of pent-up unforgiveness and even the slightest drop of malice or envy. When we have "cleaned the inside of the cup" we become more aware of God's grace, and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

There are many wonderful writings on this in Orthodoxy.

Signed,
A Desert Aspirant

[A Desert Aspirant]

Andrew,

It is probably more the spirit and essense inherit in the icon's image, that "place" where the image of the saint directs your soul, that calls down God's graces; not the material itself.

Some icons are very blessed, and have more ability to call forth a saint's blessing, or have more spiritual "power" behind them than others.

An icon is representative of a saint, and lifts our minds and hearts to them, but the icon is not the saint himself/herself.

Holy relics, however, are said to be imbued with actual spiritual or divine energies of that saint, with the graces transmitted from the actual physical substance.

There may be others here with more insight for you on this.

A Desert Aspirant

[Herman Blaydoe]

Also: is it true that praying and lighting candles before ikons transmits grace to the pray-er from the ikon?

Actually, not exactly. All Grace comes from God, and no Orthodox will say otherwise. We teach that if we pay respect to an icon, that respect passes through the icon to that which it represents. If a soldier on a far away battlefield takes out a picture of a loved one and kisses it, what is he doing? Is he simply kissing a piece of paper? An icon is a picture of a loved one who is not otherwise tangibly with us at the moment. It is a reminder, an opportunity to focus, a chance to contemplate and to pray. We honor our heros, the saints who have gone before. They are the ones that God, through the Church, has chosen to serve as examples worthy of emulation and as teachers, as righteous people. We honor their memory and we remember the teaching of the Apostle James that we should ask others to pray for us and that the prayers of the righteous are of great effect. (James 10:16). How much more so the prayers of the righteous saints who stand in God's presence.

By the way, a candle is an icon of prayer.

Icon: An image; a representation.
An important and enduring symbol.
American Heritage Dictionary

[A Desert Aspirant]

"Inherit" is a misspelling of inherent.

"It is probably more the spirit and essense inherent in the icon's image, that "place" where the image of the saint directs your soul, that calls down God's graces; not the material itself."

[Rachel]

Dear A Desert Aspirant,

What religion are you? You should tell people this before you start commenting in an Orthodox forum on the meaning of saints and veneration and icons.

--r

[Herman Blaydoe]

An interesting article (non-Orthodox) about icons here: Facing the Russian Icons (http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/2003/07/16/)

[Donald Wescott]

Herman and all,
The author of the article you mentioned in your most recent post, Terry Mattingly, is indeed an Orthodox Christian. He writes a syndicated column that is widely distributed in Christian as well as secular outlets.

[Fr Averky]

Aspirant,

Several people have asked you what religion you are. You sent me a private e-mail with a fake address, asked me all kinds of questions in a way I thought to be a little strange, so I refused to have contact with you. Now you have entered this community and you have set yourself up as an expert, instructing others, and being quite combative, and you hide behind not being registered and not letting anyone know anything about you. I for one do not like it and will not engage in any thread with you. I have been guilty of not always being patient with my fellow members of this community, but you have come in "Blockbusters," and like a shotgun, shooting off at any moving target. I think we all would be more comfortable if we knew who this "Aspirant" might be. Please forgive me if f I seem rude or offensive, but this all leaves me feeling bewildered and uncomfortable.

I can sharply disagree with Owen and Richard Leigh, but I know who they are insofar as I have had contact with them for a while now, and I know generally what they believe. Young Andrew has given us many good threads and desires to learn more about Orthodoxy, even though he is a Protestant, and he doesn't instruct us as to what the Orthodox Church teaches. He might have his opinions and will take a position, but I can respect that, because he has told us why he posts. About you, we know nothing. Those of us who are Orthodox sense that you are not, and we would respect your opinions more if we knew what the person behind the name believes, so we can respond in an appropriate manner. Now, it is like being shot at by a sniper.

Fr. A.

[Serafim robberstad]

Kristus er i vE5r midte!

Dear Father A! Hm... why did we not know your name???

Pray for me a sinner.

Serafim

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Father Serafim,

Lots of people know my name. I have only recently started to use "Fr. A" out of convenience, and Owen started to call me that, and I decided to use it. And, Father Serafim, you did not tell me that you are a hieromonk in the Orthodox Church of Sweden -Welcome!

Fr. A.

[A Desert Aspirant]

"Rachel," (or Fr. A.),

I cannot be on the computer all day long or everyday to immediately address a question. So, "Rachel," sorry a reply to you is a day later than your post.

You first inquired, "Tell us something about yourself." I didn't tune in here to talk about myself. I tuned in here to talk about God and the spiritual life. I tuned in here to talk about the faith. Not to discuss little me and bore people to death.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Father A, You were not given any fake address. If you received a response how could it have been "fake?"

Perhaps if people have asked YOU any questions it is because they want to verify that you are really a priest. Archbishop Averky lived at the monastery you claim to reside at a few decades ago. How would anyone know you are really another Father Averky living at the same Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville?

[Justin]

Aspirant,

If it means anything to you, I'm pretty sure Fr. A. is who he says he is. There is a Fr. Averky listed as residing at Holy Trinity Monastery on the ROCOR Parish listings (http://directory.sjkp.org/parishes.php?PHPSESSID=2e8ec973f9708c2ebb03ceb9c78 dfd4d&state=NY&submitButtonName=Go) website. Also, when I first returned to posting here, I asked the matushka of my spiritual father whether she knew a Fr. A at Jordanville, and she does know him (or to be more accurate, she can confirm that there is a Fr. Averky at Jordanville). She dropped by this forum and seemed to accept that it was the same man (though she had no reasons to doubt).

Please understand that we (or at least I) are not looking for information so that we can "put you in a box" or have a reason to ignore you. It's just helpful to know where someone is coming from. A Baptist, a Catholic, an Orthodox, and a Mormon can all say the word "salvation" but mean very different things by that. We (or at least I) are not asking you to stop posting, but rather, to give us something of a context in which to understand your words. If Fr. A. talks about prayer, for instance, I know that he is probably speaking differently (at least in some ways) than when my Wesleyan friend speaks about prayer. I wouldn't ignore either or automatically dismiss either out of hand, but understanding something about them helps me to understand the words and concepts they use.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Perhaps if people have asked YOU any questions it is because they want to verify that you are really a priest. Archbishop Averky lived at the monastery you claim to reside at a few decades ago. How would anyone know you are really another Father Averky living at the same Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville?

Dear friends,

Okay, this is probably the sign that the moderator should do some moderating.

'Desert Aspirant', your unwillingness to register for an account and inform others of the background that feeds your perspective will naturally raise the curiosities and suspicions of others. Please do not react to this reasonable doubt by trying to raise false suspicions against those who do share about themselves. It is time for you to register for a full account, rather than remain anonymous.

INXC, Matthew

[A Desert Aspirant]

Justin,

Thank you. The posts I've made should be indicative of my awareness and love of Orthodox spirituality. No matter what a seeker's church "membership," people who are serious aspirants can all relate!

God bless you.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Matthew,

Those "suspicions," were not false, but a genuine, justified wanting to verify. You should not force a person to "register" for your site before they feel comfortable with doing so.

That is intimidation, not free will.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Fr A has a registered profile. We can easily see who he says he is, and thanks to further comment from Justin, we have independent confirmation. From "Aspirant" we have nothing of the sort, merely extremely vague comments and a need for verification of someone else's information that she (I assume) is unwilling to provide for herself.

If this were a medical forum and someone was posting medical opinions, it would be worthwhile to know if that person was a doctor or not. Many fora REQUIRE participants to register. This one does not, but that does not guarantee that other participants will see attempts at obfuscation and misdirection as detrimental to an individual's credibility. If someone is presenting a viewpoint as "Orthodox" but that someone is not Orthodox, this is a relevent datapoint worth considering. There are many who "admire" aspects of Orthodoxy "from afar." Some of them are not very "orthodox" at all. It is certainly good to know how we look to those "outside", but it is also good to know the vantage point of the commenter, inside or outside.

[M. Rallis]

Dear Herman:

I'm not sure that having a "registered profile" on this website is any guarantee of who, or what, we are. Matthew could clarify, but I doubt he does any verification of the data that we enter into the profile when we register for Monachos.net. I suppose that it is possible that someone could even register multple times and have different persona to interact in the threads. This, I am told, by those who earn a living by being very good at computers and soft ware and security issues, is just the nature of online communications of this type.

I, by the way, have no doubts at all that Father Averky is who he presents himself to be in his profile and through his posts! I also believe that my profile is accurate, but that is of relatively little meaning to you all who don't know me as a person but only know me as electronic text that sometimes sounds off and less of the time makes any sense!

[Theresa]

Herman,

From Desert Aspirant we have much more than what you call "extremely vague comments." A Desert Aspirant's posts are very clear, and I believe that person has sound spiritual insight.

Theresa

[Theresa]

Matthew,

I've been an onlooker for sometime now. By so limiting a non-registered person's input, you could be missing out on some wise contribution.

Who a person really is shouldn't matter so much. The message is more vital than the messenger.

Theresa

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Theresa and others,

Regarding interaction with these forums by unregistered / anonymous users, I have posted our policies on this matter here. Please take a moment to read that text in order to understand how this Community is made available to unregistered users.

With any questions, please use the Contact the Moderator function to interact with me via e-mail. We shall reserve these discussion threads for the subjects at hand.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Averky]

Aspirant,

Your boldness amazes everyone. You have twice now questioned who I am and your first e-mail address was, as you yourself told me, designed in such a way that I would have no clue as to who you are, while you questioned me as to who I am. I have been at my monastery since September of 1975, and Archbishop Averky died in April of 1976. Why does it matter to you if I am a priest or not- you show no respect to anyone. Your entire approach has been very unpleasant, and I can sense that my feeling uncomfortable about you is shared by many. You might have an "awareness" or even a "love" for Orthodoxy, but your desire to teach rather than to ask a question or simply participate is sufficient to show that you are not a member of the Church. You argue with the moderator of this community that some one should not be forced to register until they feel "comfortable" to do so, but you put everybody off with your "ex cathedra" statements and will chastize someone and then say summarily, well, I better get off the computer -I have other things to do.

I do not think that you have approached anyone, especially Justin, who, bared his heart to you, with love and mercy. Again, I say, there is something very wrong here.

Theresa, forgive me, but I do not believe that any of us think ourselves "wise" when we post, yet it is true that we have given each other much. This is a discussion board, and it is made up of many good people, but we have come to know one another in that one aspect that we do on this board, and it is disconcerting when people jump in, make a bold statement, and jump back out again.

I have come to know several people in this community by private messages and we know each other beyond this community. We might have our differences, but they are open, and Honest.

I do not have to prove my existence to anyone, and it is insulting on the part of the so-called Aspirant to demand proof of anything while he or she chooses to remain in the shadows. As you can see, We don't know if this person is even a Christian, if it is a man, or a woman, or what.The Moderator has clearly pointed out that people need to put down their releigion, but the person Aspiring to teach all of us about Orthodoxy does so in a dishonest manner- why, I do not know. I find your attitude and your posts at times to be simply out of line.

Fr. A.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear Herman:


I'm not sure that having a "registered profile" on this website is any guarantee of who, or what, we are.

I think I realize that and I was not implying otherwise, that is why I thought it worth mentioning the "independent verification" from Justin. At least he and you and I provide the information requested in the policy and we do not hide behind half answers. I contend that evasive answers do more harm to someone's credibility than forthright ones (at least in this simple mind). When discussing what Orthodoxy teaches, I don't think it too much to ask if a person is Orthodox, investigating Orthodoxy, or proselytizing for some other faith. I have been in many fora where non-Orthodox have postured as Orthodox or were willing to speak for the Orthodox with their own preconceived notions. Background, credentials and motives matter to some of us. Your mileage may vary.

[Serafim robberstad]

Dear Father A.. and all others! First, I hope you get my privat = letter, father. I am sorry, I did'nt mean to be hash or annything like = that. I was to quick, so when I read older messager I understand bether. = Thank you for your welcome! And Mea culpa.... =20

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky and A Desert Aspirant (et al.)

I think ADA's grilling of you, Father, was only intended to show his resentment at being grilled. And originally (unless I'm mistaken) it was Rachel, another unregistered guest, who asked him his religion, though I recognize others have jumped on that bandwagon. Unfortunately, one is waiting to hear what Othodoxy teaches regarding the veneration of Icons.

Dear "one of other" Desert Aspirants,

I have found it is important to become sensitive to what others are saying and try prayerfully to discern what their context might be. For the sake of clarity, on the giving end, it is always good, in my experience to relieve anyone of any suspicions that might bias their response. Thus, while I understand someone on an Orthodox forum not stating "where they're coming from" initially, I don't understand not answering a direct question as to where that might be, and a flat out refusal shows that one believes he has reason to hide something. Not the optimum way to enhance communication.

I myself am interested in this forum generally because much of what I find in Orthodoxy accords what I have learened in my own Lutheranism, though in different words and different emphases, yet there are areas in which I am examining whether of not Lutheranism might not be wrong after all.

Anyway, I think far too much energy is spent in taking umbrage. "Agree quickly with your adversary," Jesus said, "lest he take you to court..."

Sincerely

Richard

[Owen Jones]

Dear Richard,

It's not so much a question of being right or wrong. It's how you want to get there. I can take a VW or a Rolls Royce from my house to Atlanta. Both will get me there, but which one should I take?

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Owen,

Last I heard there's only one way to get there.

Richard

[Fr Averky]

I am sorry if you were offended for Aspirant's sake, who told us she is a woman. I was put of because, while you try to make it clear that you are not Orthodox, and you want to learn about it, this person refused to let us know where sher is coming from. Since we all know who you are in the sense of what you stand for, we can deal with it accordingly. Aspirant's refusal to tell us anything put everyone at an uncomfortable disadvantage, and while I felt that he/she had some interesting things to say, there was no way I or others could clearly relate or react to them, not knowing if the person who said these things is Orthdodox, or a Roman Catholic, or some sort of Protestant. That's all. Each Christian group is going to have its view of the veneration of the saints, and that view will be colored by what each individual has been taught. You have a great deal of knowledge of Orthodoxy, but perhaps the Orthodox veneration of the Mother of God might trouble you -I would know this if you told me, or if I knew that you were a strict Calvinist, for I do not know any Calvinists who venerate the Virgin Mary.

Fr. A.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Father Averky,

You infer I have a desire to "teach." But I have only the desire to discuss things of God. Internet "safety"(cautiousness) was my reason for asking you those intitial questions.That's it. And that's wise.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Fr. A.,


"Aspirant's refusal to tell us anything put everyone at an uncomfortable disadvantage,...."

With all I've said you should have been able to comprehend: I'm married,interested in spiritual life,have no children,etc.. Much was implicit in things I wrote.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Fr. Averky,

I "chastised" noone. Disagreeing isn't chastisement. And to whoever stated that people want to know a poster's "credentials": What were the credentials of Saul/Paul and a few of the others? FAITH. One must have faith to speak ad lib about the spiritual.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Fr. A,

You shouldn't be insulted by internet verifications. I wondered why you told others not to read the Philokalia, and why you spoke negatively about two great Carmelite mystics. No, they weren't Orthodox. They were born where and when God had them be. God was in Europe, too.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Dear Fr. Averky,

One last answer. No, I cannot sit at the computer for hours as you might be able to. I must sign off at some point. Sorry if you interpreted this as avoidance. Excuse me if you found it annoying. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Fr Averky]

Aspirant,

You took an awful lot of time justifying yourself -it is pointless to to try to have a discusssion with you, for you always come back with a know-it-all answer. I for one will no longer even read your posts.

[A Desert Aspirant]

P.S. to Fr. A.,

As I have not registered for this forum yet, my posts are limited to a few sentences. (Thus the several separate replies.) The Lord is teaching me to say more in fewer words. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Elizabeth]

"Hell hath no wrath like a woman spurned."

Shakespeare

[A Desert Aspirant]

"Whatsoever you do unto the least of these, you have done unto me." JESUS
"Judge not lest ye be judged." JESUS http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
"Pray for those who accuse you...." JESUS

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Desert Aspirant,

Forum postings; as has been stated here, can be easily misunderstood. Therefore; to avoid misunderstanding, unless that is your aim, plain speaking is a must. Politicians term it "full disclosure".

Indications as to who, and what you are and what it is that you believe may well have been hidden in your posts as an unregistered guest, however your combative style overpowered your hints, even more than the fact thatno one on the forum was familiar with your style, especially since you refused to speak of yourself.

I realize that Monachos is not the Church, but being humbly submissive to the rules of whatever enity we may be involved with, or to the testimony of those who have gone before us is a part of life as a believer.

The last time I took a psychological evaluation test, I registered as smarter than what was average; however, reading some of the posts in the thread about "intellectual questioning and Orthodoxy" I found more than tedious and not to my interest.

Try as we may to be te greatest spiritual people around, people still get on our nerves, either from something perceived or something real. Regardless of the reality of the cause of the infraction, the infraction is still real.

The reference you made to judging, the majority of people outside the Church also use wrongly. They use it as a club to bully Christians to not call sin for what it is, sin. The passage really is talking about how we judge, "for with the measure that you judge, it will be measured unto you. Therefore, judge with righteous judgement.

"Pray for those who persecute you", no problem with that in any way. The question is however, Why are you being persecuted? As Paul said, eating meat sacrificed to idols is nothing, but if my eating will cause my brother for whom Christ died to sin, I will no longer eat meat. FREEDOM COMES WITH ITS BUILT-IN RESTRAINTS,i.e., who are you....?

The least of these refers to those who are on the bottom rung of the societal ladder. Discusson has alredy taken place about the role of women within Holy Orthodoxy, and the idea of equality, just in case you're having thoughts about women being the least of today's society, a notion which I believe will not fit in this instance.

Here's a thought: If you truly aspire to the type of life experienced by the 'desert fathers and mothers', and the honest questions of some here has caused you to say FINE WITH ME, how do you think you would fare in a monastery with all those heavenly pieces of sandpaper around?

I do believe that it's a teaching of the Fathers of the Church that "how can I say I love God whom I cannot see, if I do not love my brother (or my brother Fr. A's postings) whom I do see.

It is aleady a shame for you for brother goes to court against brother, why not rather be defamed, why not rather be wronged. Why indeed, well, because of PRIDE.

the unworthy servant

[A Desert Aspirant]

James,

"The last time I took a psychological evaluation test, I registered as smarter than what was average.... I'm impressed with your humility! I've spent much time in spiritual environments. Monasteries included. I know the grind.

[Loretta]

Now, now children!

Let us love one another, so that with one mind we may profess ...

Please take a look at what y'all are saying to each other!

Please do not take offense, but it may help to say a prayer before posting your responses.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Richard,

You say


"though I recognize others have jumped on that bandwagon."

Yes, they have. From the beginning, I've merely been responding to insult -- except for you & Justin -- all because one man didn't like me disagreeing with him. This subject is wearing thin.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Right, Loretta. Another good quote: "Many human activities, good in themselves, are not good because of the motive for which they are done...." & "In everything we do God searches out our purpose....," St. Maximos. He left great instructional writings.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Loretta,

I think you for ever being humble, concerned and kind and your thoughtful and useful posts. I will contact you soon. You use the intelligence and gifts that God has given you to always try to keep the peace, and you do it in such a loving manner-you are an inspiration to me!

Love in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Aspirant,

Ah then, there is no force we can exert on our antagonists to bring them into our favor other, I think, than pray for them and not respond to them.

Getting caught up in one's own self defense is not really a good thing.

Yours,

Richard

[A Desert Aspirant]

Richard,

You are right about force and antagonists. Turning the other cheek is most effective in certain situations. But in some interactions speaking up in clarifying self-defense is the wisest choice. Few things in life are always and everywhere the case.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear A,

Yes, I agree with you and engage in it myself, so long as I am convinced that the problem was only misunderstanding. But I must watch myself lest I fall into attack mode (where I become the antagoniser my antagonists are --not, for the record, that I am antagonized so often).

For the rest on this thread I think I will take a leaf from Father Averky's book and wonder wouldn't it be better to be venerating saints right now than posting each other about doing so :-) (if only we were at least doing that!

Loving you A, and the rest as well!

Richard

[A Desert Aspirant]

RL: So right about the venerating of, instead of ventilating about, the icons & saints! Are you speaking of a book by the late Archbishop Averky or Father Averky who posts here? http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

I thank you for your kindness and temperance. You are a good man, and I have learned much from you, and even when we might have disagreed, I have always been aware of your intrinsic goodness, which you share with the other Richard, the venerable Professor McBride.

In the Lord,

Fr. A.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear A,

Sorry to have left you out of "the loope' on that one! My oversight. As you see by response of our dear Father Averky himself (who indeed exists!), I meant him.

RL

P.s., as you will learn by reading his posts, most of the time, he clearly states the true praxis of the hieromonk he is (an example, BTW to all Christians) that our "religion," if you will, is not about word, but deed. He gets after me about it sometimes, but not to worry, he's all right ---R

[Moses Anthony]

Dear All;

In my last post a comment was made which in retrospect, throws some doubt as to my own state of spiritual affairs, i.e., humility. The thread postings mentioned by myself as tedious, were so because much of what was being said I've not had the time or interest read/learn. I've never liked reading anything technical!

If there's any humility in me, it's there as a result of me blowing up where I work (a penal institution} either at inmates of fellow correctional officers. It is entirely appropriate therefore that I was chosen by Moses, prophet and God seer of Israel and Moses (The Black) of Ethiopia (before I chose the name Moses), who themselves were refined much in their "backsides of the desert". The prison is mine, where people are remanded to our custody who embody the words violence, and evil or vile speech. It is the monastery where I, during inactivity steal time to say the Jesus prayer, or chant a kathisma, or remind myself that the war is "...not against flesh and blood, where I realize how severe the mercy is I show others when I violate my own standard of righteousness-not God's.

Pride disguises itself so ingeniously and insidiously in our lives! Please for me, a sinful and unworthy servant of God. He must increase ...!

[Elizabeth]

My dearest James:

I will remember you in my prayers as you have a very difficult job. It would be wonderful if somehow prisons could be places where people could be rehabilitated spiritually, as that is the prisoners most urgent need.

Are you working with the prison ministry of the Antiochian Orthodox Church under the patronage of St. Silas? I have their Icons of St. Moses of Ethiopia and St. Michael the Archangel. On the back of St. Michael's icon is a powerful prayer against the devil.

O Holy Angel, guardian of my soul, and Michael the Archangel, be my helpers. Do not be offended at me, a sinner, do not leave me alone; guard me day and night until with true repentance, I give my soul into the hands of God my Maker. Save me from all enemies, seen and unseen, that I many not keep repeating my sins. I pray that upon my death I may be found worthy of seeing you, and that you will be standing around me to bring my soul to heaven, so I may worship before the face of God. Amen.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Moses,

May our Saviour and His angels guide and protect you in the real podvig that you live. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have to deal with that kind of suffering humanity-men created in God's image, who by any number of circumstances have been brought to the place of punishment. When I serve proskomedia, I always pray for the sick and the imprisoned, for the sick are imprisoned, and often, the imprisoned are sick

I also remember the beautiful words of the Elder Zosima, from Dostoevsky's "Brothers Karamazov." While talking to a young man while on a boat on the river, the Eldeer tells him, "When you wake up each morning, make the sign of the cross and say "O Lord, have mercy on those souls who will come before Thy dread judgement throne this day!" And perhaps, somewhere far away, a person, all alone, unloved an uncared for, dies, and finds himself standing before our Saviour in Judgement; and at that moment, your prayer comes through, and God shows him mercy. If you do this, when you die, those souls will draw near to Him and say, "Here is he who helped us, show him mercy, O Lord." This is a general paraphrase, for I read the book almost thirty years ago. The thought, however, so stuck in my mind, that it has become a part of me, a loving duty for those who are alone and lonely. Let us pray for all the poor souls of this world, asking our Christ to show them mercy before the end.

[Moses Anthony]

E.Hanson; Fr.A,

My work is entirely as an employee of the state. For a time I was involved with the ministry of the United Methodist Church called Walk to Emmaus. Their ministry to prisoners Kairos, I had the possibility of being involved in, but not where, or in the system I work in (it has to do with the business of compromising positions). It's an interesting note that many of the smaller icons I have, I possess as a result of the Catholic chaplain who used to be at the unit where I work. Who himself, got them from the Antiochian Orthodox Prison Ministry.

Your comments have put the thought in my mind that: Now is the time I should re-read Fr. Arseny, Prisoner Priest! I come nowhere close to that holy man's depth of spiritual living.

The work of the chaplain and other religious volunteers is often poo-pooed, because of the crimes committed by those the public has remanded to our safekeeping. I know that Charles Colson; founder of Angel Tree Ministries, a few years ago received the equivalent of a Nobel Prize for his ministry to prisoners. The fact of the decreased recidivism among inmates who are genuinely 'converted' cannot be denied, whatever may be the belief held about religious workers , or faith in Jesus Christ.

When my son was overseas I asked Daniel to interceed for him, because Daniel knew what it was like to be in a foreign land where faith is challenged. When I remember to (i.e., discipline myself to) say my morning prayers I'll often ask Holy Apostle Silas to pray for me.

Ther's nothing new under the sun. There's nothing new which can be experienced, which hasn't been experienced before, which makes it perfectly understandable to venerate those in the cloud of witnesses, and to ask for their intercessions. Yes, as the two of you have noted the work enviroment is difficult, hard, challenging, demeaning, unfair, boring, etc., however; I was brought up short when one day I thought of how Paul and Silas miistered in prison, they did not complain about their unfair treatment at the hands of pagans, but they sang songs and hymns to God, and God provided an earthquake to free them and subsequently save an entire family. But again, how willing am I to bear the mantle of the one whose name I bear, or whose icon I venerate.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRAYERS, and please forgive my wordiness.

an unworthy servant

[dianne marie debs]

In His Name,

In my long and difficult struggle toward salvation, there is one very important thing that I have learned. This of course being that it isn't enough to study the scriptures and become a high scholar in any topic that maybe be brought up... it is using this knowledge for the benifit of others.

Next week is the holiday of Our Lord's tranfiguration. Reading Mark 8 and 9, I regenerated the idea of giving. Jesus told his disciples that they would have to forget themselves for Him.

We have to become One With God. Therefore we have to become the very person that Jesus was when He was present on earth in His Body. What does this truely MEAN????????

All the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit meantioned in any Orthodox Prayer book are things that that all of us works at and prayer for everyday; but in our prayer books the chief corporal works of Mercy are also mentioned.

These works are really what we have to concentrate on.

MERCY ...this little but power word should make any humble Christian shiver. These are the works of LOVE. Jesus spent his life helping others. His mission on earth was for mankind ... to save. So let us put in our mind to help someone every day. Just one person.. maybe say good morning to a neighbor that you don't really know or help the little old lady in the supermarket. Just start with some one and have MERCY. Then, only can the Lord have Mercy upon you.

May God give James strength to any visit to any prison. I have been to the prisons in Lebanon. God have Mercy!!!!!!!

Lately the members and the guests on this forum have had little patience with each other . I'm sure each feel justifiable, but we are here to learn so that we can then spread Our Lord's work.

I humbly ask for tolerance of each other. Each of us are different and I believe important. My parish priest, who is a very humble man, can make me laugh one minute, angry the next and then cry another.

From the depth of my heart I am praying for all of you as we enter the Holy Fast for the Mother of Our God and as we approach this important holiday on Aug. 6th.

May the Lord have mercy upon you all,
A humble servant,
Dianne

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Dianne,

in a rather oblique manner, your post is answered by the quote from another thread on head covering for women given by Michael Rallis.

Thank you for you Christian love and concern for all of us. may God richly bless you.

Fr. A.