Differences in North American Orthodox jurisdictions

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Christ is Risen!

I am a "cradle Orthodox" who has worshipped at Greek, OCA, ROCOR and Antiochian churches in the U.S. for almost 5 decades.

For a variety of reasons, most of which I hope are spiritually edifying, I am undertaking the writing of a "white paper" on the aforementioned topic.

I know, I know, there aren't any, of course. To borrow a phrase from Bishop Kallistos (I think it was he; forgive me Despota, if I err), Orthodox always agree what we don't believe in, even if we disagree on what we do...

And yet, I'm not so sure of that.

So in how about it, brothers and sisters? Please volunteer any topics that you think would be worth of a chapter or paragraph in such a work. (Also, I am referring to "big T" Tradition, not recipes for baklava.)

I would prefer to limit the scope to SCOBA jurisdictions within the North American continent.

Thank you.

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

I will start by listing one disagreement that all are familiar with.

1. Aerial toll houses:

ROCOR: Accepted
OCA: Considered Heresy
GOA: Considered Heresy
Antiochian: ??
Carpatho-Russian: ??

[Herman Blaydoe]

Carpatho-Russian (ACROD) I would say is agnostic on the subject, I am not aware of a formal position of Metropolitan Nicholas. And I suspect that "considered heresy" is a bit strong for the position of the OCA. I know that Bishop Lazar is certainly against it, but I don't know that he speaks for the entire OCA.

[nurse-aid]

is in it our whole life is a prototype of Toll House...every single moment, event, we passed or not...by our will to gave up to HIM or simply answer on HIS call...in order when someoone beating us, do not answer the same, this IS HIS WILL at that right moment, to be still as before we was hit, if we are not esxept that call, we answer diferently and bu this regets HIM...then we didn't passed that boot...next is next...BUT this is life gave oppotunity to go back or simply passed next toll...untill WHEN it is finished...and i susspect that Toll House after death is a short model of our life, last toll, which as it was stated by author...maybe paid from our own deeds and desires of our heart, that is why angels writing down every our breath...

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Orthodox Pilgrim,

It is more accurate to say that the significance of the toll houses is a subject of discussion & debate. When we write "OCA: considered heresy; GOA: considered heresy" this conveys the idea of a synodal decision. Many with justification make the case that a heresy can only be declared by the entire Orthodox Church in Council- and even this must be in accord with the mind of the Church (several Councils have been declared 'robber councils' afterwards). I can only speak of the OCA which has certainly not done this. Indeed many within the OCA do agree entirely with what Fr Seraphim wrote. Certainly this does not mean that there are heretics hiding within the ranks of the OCA.

Beyond this of course is the fact that many Holy Fathers and modern Church writers including such as Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos have referred to the toll houses or a basic accounting for our spiritual state immediately after death. Again the exact significance of this may be very well open to interpretation- but very few would be so bold as to entirely reject something which is so clearly witnessed to in Tradition.

A final note: ROCOR is not a Church body that walks in mental lock-step. Just as Fr Seraphim's intention was just to prayerfully express in his own way what he had imbibed from Tradition, so the rest of the Church Abroad also are (or at least try to be) faithful to the One Tradition in very personal ways.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Father Raphael, Bless:

Thank you. Your points are clear enough, greatly appreciated and highlight the care I'll need to take in delineating the various jurisdictional positions on these topics. Certainly, what one priest or theologian calls heresy, another might not, and I'll have to do my research properly to ferret out "official" or synodal positions vs. personal opinion or hearsay.

But the goal was not to create a thread on Toll Houses, just develop a list of topics for study and consideration.


Another one would be that of the baptism of converts: my understanding is that the OCA and the GOA have differing positions over who needs to be baptised vs. Chrismated only. Is this true?

In Christ,


O. Pilgrim

[Trudy]

Another one would be frequency of confession and communion.

[Trudy]

And another would be the elements of the Liturgy. For example, in the GOA parish I worshipped in, we did not say the Prayer for the Catechumens. Whereas, in the OCA parish I presenlty worship in, we do say it.

(Sorry I didn't think to add this to my previous post.)

[Herman Blaydoe]

You might find this source of interest:

Differences between Greek and Russian Divine Services (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

[Herman Blaydoe]

If you are looking for the differences between the various jurisdictions, I recommend you go straight to the sources:

OCA http://www.oca.org
GOA http://www.goarch.org
Antiochian http://www.antiochian.org
ACROD http://www.acrod.org
Serbian http://www.westsrbdio.org/index.html

Most of these sites have Q&A sections that may answer many of your questions. I know the OCA and GOA sites have a great deal of information on most of the things you are asking about. Comparing their information side by side should reveal the differences.

[Herman Blaydoe]

On some of the topics you mention, the differences are less from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but from parish to parish and priest to priest. Some parishes in one jurisdiction may discourage frequent communion (often older, more "ethnic" parishes), another in the same jurisdiction will encourage it, (newer or less "ethnic" parishes). The TREND in most SCOBA jurisdictions is for more frequent (weekly) communion, while I have seen both practices in some ROCOR parishes. Some parishioners from the GOA to our ACROD parish are initially taken aback by our practice of weekly communion, but I have been to other GOA parishes where it is the norm. Broad characterizations are going to be a challenge if that is what you are looking for.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Orthodox Pilgrim,

Forgive me for not getting back to you before now.

I have read the above posts in response to your question and I think that Herman's points are very well taken. You have to be on the ground for awhile before you understand both the general character of each jurisdiction & the many different exceptions and varieties within each jurisdiction also. In a way it's also a great hands-on lesson in Orthodox ecclesiology!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

I appreciate the spirit in which everyone has posted in response to my question.

Bear in mind, my stated goal is to only formulate a list of differences in doctrine or Tradition; I will have to differentiate between the actual, official "belief" vs. the "practice" after I begin my research.

Under the objective stated above, significant Liturgical differences would definitely apply.

Sacramental frequency or emphasis, as with all forms of ascesis or praxis may not. I know some monastics, priests and hierarchs who keep a much stricter regimen than others; and I've certainly seen differences in emphasis from parish to parish in this regard regardless of archdiocese.

I am very familiar with the various websites, but typically they are not going to delve too deeply into (especially the more) controversial subjects. That is why I thought I'd ask brothers and sisters in this group, most of whom, I'd imagine, have been exposed to more than one jurisdiction long enough to see the differences.

In the end, I will go directly to the source to request official clarification, regardless as to what I may find posted or published, since the goal is to have an official position, not just the discussion.

Please keep them coming.

How about this one: official position vs. economia with respect to the marriage of first cousins. My initial, limited research would seem to indicate that while all jurisdictions are opposed to it, that it's more frequent in the Arab world, and that the Antiochian archdiocese grants permission for this more than other jurisdictions.

(FYI, I am an American, and I was initially very startled to learn that this practice is legal in both Canada and all European countries, until I remembered that European royalty have been doing this for centuries.)

In Christ,

O Pilgrim

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Herman:

Thank you for listing that article on the liturgical differences. Very nice.

[Anthony]

It is indeed a very nice article. It has also helped me to understand better a comment of Mother Gavriilia's:


I like it when we say "Bless the Lord my soul" and then afterwards the Beatitudes, instead of "Through the intercessions" and "Save us". That is how it used to be in Constantinople.

A couple of other differences I have noticed (though this may not apply to America, I have never been there).

(i) Greek priests tend to say the prayer to the "Father of Lights" in front of the icon of Christ, rather than in front of the Royal Doors.

(ii) They tend to put the sermon immediately before the communion of the people, which I believe is not traditional.

Another thing you might like to consider is how far the different jurisdictions go in identifying Orthodoxy with particular nationalities (not to say nationalisms). Again, the answer to that might be different in America than over here.

[Sunny]

Hello Everyone,

I have not seen the Romanian Orthodox church mentioned. I may be moving to a place where one is nearby. Does anyone know if there are differences between Romanian practices and Greek ones? Are Romanians more traditional-like the Russian churches?

Thanks for your help!
Sunny

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Sunny,

I have not attended a Romanian-only Orthodox Church in North America for almost three decades. I know the present Ruling Archbishop of the Romanian Diocese in North America (under the Orthodox Church in America) Nathaniel. You can find him at: www.oca.org/ (http://www.oca.org/)
They will certainly help you as you require.

The first 'difference' you will notice is the language. It will be a mixture of Romanian/English depending on the parish needs.

Are they more traditional? Well, I am not much help here. As far as Romanians in Romania are concerned all Romanian parishes in the New World leave something to be desired.

As for monasteries, convents and parishes in Romania, it is like being in Heaven. Though after a period of time the effects of 45 years of Communism become obvious everywhere.

They are unique in being the only Orthodox Canonical Church whose Liturgical language is Latin-based.

They are wonderful people and will welcome you with a LARGE heart!

[Alec Lowly]

Father Seraphim writes:


"(The Romanians) are wonderful people and will welcome you with a LARGE heart!"

Amin! That's so!

In XC,
Alec

[Kosta]

To me thats the major differences of varying juridictions, some are more modernist than others. The degrees of modernism may also vary from parish to parish.

[Jeff Johnson]

Here are a few more ideas for comparison--

How many converts v. cradles among the laity and priesthood in each jurisdiction?

How many monastic communities exist under each jurisdiction? How many missionaries?

How do the majority in each jurisdiction view ecumenism?

[Paul Cowan]

Certainly the Antiochians I've visited seem even more culturally American, the music was almost nostalgically Southern Gospel in it's style.



Uhhhhh, no.

[D. W. Dickens]

Hrm. I can only tell you what I experienced. 4 part, southern gospel "old rugged cross" style harmony.

[Paul Cowan]

Hrm. I can only tell you what I experienced. 4 part, southern gospel "old rugged cross" style harmony.

I have heard barber shop quartet type singing in a Russian monastery (St. Panteleimon on Athos), but only Byzantine chant in the Antiochians I have visited. Maybe they were doing a tent revival for hillbillies that Sunday? Maybe it was a transitional service for new PC converts? hummm:rolleyes:

[D. W. Dickens]

I'm told by my priest that what I experienced was associated with Father Gilquist's group and that they do several things slightly different as the Church is allowing them time to implement changes.

He had heard some say that the music was a bit on the "sentimental" side. I've come to learn in the meantime "sentimental" is not a complement in Orthodoxy. But I've been thinking about this, if the Greeks can use Greek music and the Russians, the Russian style, it seems salvific for Americans to at least take some Americana flavor.

I keep hearing how Orthodoxy isn't destructive (in Finland, in Serbia, in Alaska, whatever) it preserves and redirects culture toward God. I wonder why this is more problematic with America? Each jurisdiction certainly takes it's own path on this. My parish priest is very interested in reaching out to the local Hispanic population. He's always talking about how pious the community is, they only need to be properly invited to Church.

I can see the problem. I can't picture what slavo-hispanic culture would look like. :-)

[Father David Moser]

I can see the problem. I can't picture what slavo-hispanic culture would look like. :-)

For a good look at that, visit Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco and visit with Fr Yaroslav who grew up in Argentina. Although he is of Russian extraction, Russian is a second language and culture to him and English/American is third. Although priest at the Russian Cathedral, he maintains many of his hispanic cultural traits (including some wonderful beef bbq's).

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Father, now you are going to get Paul started on BBQ again! :-)

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm told by my priest that what I experienced was associated with Father Gilquist's group and that they do several things slightly different as the Church is allowing them time to implement changes.

He had heard some say that the music was a bit on the "sentimental" side. I've come to learn in the meantime "sentimental" is not a complement in Orthodoxy. But I've been thinking about this, if the Greeks can use Greek music and the Russians, the Russian style, it seems salvific for Americans to at least take some Americana flavor.

I keep hearing how Orthodoxy isn't destructive (in Finland, in Serbia, in Alaska, whatever) it preserves and redirects culture toward God. I wonder why this is more problematic with America? Each jurisdiction certainly takes it's own path on this. My parish priest is very interested in reaching out to the local Hispanic population. He's always talking about how pious the community is, they only need to be properly invited to Church.

I can see the problem. I can't picture what slavo-hispanic culture would look like. :-)

If you want to see and hear some culture-bending and have the bandwidth, check this out on YouTube: Hospo dipo milwi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reB9TxoBgSY).

As for me, I have acquired a taste for Prostopenjie (plain chant), which is already a blend of the many differing cultures that touch the Carpathian mountain regions. It is down home Slavic hillbilly music and could easily adapt a little more (if necessary) to accommodate American modes.

Herman the singing Pooh

[Rick H.]

Herman, you have talked about his kind of music before "Slavic/Hillbilly" . . . I would really love to hear a sample of this, do you have any links to share for this?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Herman, you have talked about his kind of music before "Slavic/Hillbilly" . . . I would really love to hear a sample of this, do you have any links to share for this?

Can't answer for the quality, but it at least gives you a bit of a taste:

Carpatho-Russian Plain Chant (http://www.acrod.org/listen.html)

[Rick H.]

Thanks so much Herman, I had a feeling I would like this. It both sends chills and brings a spiritual warmth. In Let Our Lips Be Filled (http://www.acrod.org/music/letourlipsbefilled.mp3) I can hear the mountain harmony I had hoped would be there, especially in the female voices. I wonder if you have seen/heard the movie "Cold Mountain" and can hear a very similar style/harmony in the congregational singing there?

I seem to never be ceased to be amazed at what a difference it makes to hear Orthodox chanting in English, now to this a familiar and appealing style. Thank you. Very good/touching. Very kind.


PS I wonder if there's any chance you are the lead picker on any of these?

[Theodora E.]

Before I moved to the OCA a year ago, I was in an Antiochian parish for about five years.

Metropolitan Philip allows Antiochian parishes to use the music of anyone they're in communion with. Hence, you will hear a LOT of Russian melodies. My former Antiochian parish did half and half, Byzantine and Russian. Something to note: when you've got a mission just starting up, Russian melodies are MUCH easier to learn/sing that the Byzantine. On the Antiochian website, Department of Sacred Music, the sheet music listed includes a good number of Russian settings. Even the local Antiochian parish that is mostly ethnicly Arab uses a Russian anaphora.

David Drillock, professor emeritus of liturgical music at St. Vlad's gave a talk at the SVS Summer Institute a few years ago on his life in Church music, that also happens to chronicle the development of Orthodox music in English.

http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/David_Drillock_Category/My_Life_in_Church_Music/

Early on, in the late 1930s, the Antiochians (known as the Syrians then) were using Russian melodies, Professor Drillock recounts:

In 1938 Fr. Michael Gelsinger, a priest of the Syrian Orthodox Archdiocese, published a small book, Orthodox Hymns in English, which contained forty-five hymns in English. Included in the collection were the hymns for the Liturgy and selected pieces to “encourage some participation in singing Vespers and Orthros.” These adaptations of Fr. Gelsinger were based on traditional Russian settings of the tones, simple settings by Russian composers such as Bortniansky, Arkhangelsky, Dvoretsky etc, and modifications of the Greek melodies of Sakellarides....

In 1950 the Syrian Antiochian Archdiocese published “Three Divine Liturgies in Music” for use in the churches of that archdiocese. Metropolitan Antony Bashir, who later was to become a very strong advocate for Orthodox unity in America, strongly believed that if his parishes were to exist in America, they would have to adopt the English language as the official language in which services were celebrated. The publication of this book was instrumental in putting into action the metropolitan’s desire. The book is interesting for two reasons. All the music in the book was prepared and arranged for four-voices by an Orthodox friend of the Syrians, Professor Michael Hilko who was the choir director at St. John the Baptist Russian Orthodox Church in Passaic, New Jersey. The first liturgy was in English and contained harmonizations by Professor Hilko. There were settings based on Byzantine melodies and Russian Bakhmetev tonal melodies. The Cherubic Hymn was Bortniasky’s Number 5. For the two Arabic liturgies that followed, Prof. Hilko was given the Arabic text in phoenetics and then someone sang the melodies to him. He reproduced them in western notation and then arranged them for four part harmony. Prof. Hilko’s music can still be heard in Antiochian churches. In fact, Fr. [Paul] Lazor often remarks that he has to go to an Antiochian church to hear his favorite Russian church melodies. (emphasis mine)

So, you will see that there is a long history of Russian melodies being sung in Antiochian parishes. From my limited personal experience, as well as talking with Orthodox email buddies across the country, Mily Balakirev's arrangement of "The Angel Cried" is heard more at Pascha than the Byzantine arrangement.

[Paul Cowan]

Father, now you are going to get Paul started on BBQ again! :-)

Did someone say BBQ?

Now Herman, If you're gonna be singing Russian to Hillbillies, best to have you a pig roasting nearby. Other than the fact they got so many of them, I never did figure out why hillbillies like pork over beef.

Alas father, Rick is right, we have already covered BBQ pretty extensively elsewhere. :(

Paul

[Father David Moser]

Other than the fact they got so many of them, I never did figure out why hillbillies like pork over beef.

I think thats pretty much it - there's more hogs (wild and domestic) in them thar hills than there are buffalo.

Oh and while we're on the subject, I just want to mention that I watched Lil' Abner on the Turner Movie Channel last night. Quite enjoyable - the last time I remember watching it was in Jr High. (now we are realllly off topic)

Fr David Moser

[Theodora E.]

This is REALLY off-topic, but it's appropriate to the off-topic direction.

The BBQ Song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ubTQfr_tyY&feature=related
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnWU7kDlgLQ)

[Ryan]

I've heard recordings of Orthodox in Kenya and Zimbabwe where they introduced some subtle drumming and rhythm into their hymns.

[Isa Almisry]

For a good look at that, visit Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco and visit with Fr Yaroslav who grew up in Argentina. Although he is of Russian extraction, Russian is a second language and culture to him and English/American is third. Although priest at the Russian Cathedral, he maintains many of his hispanic cultural traits (including some wonderful beef bbq's).

Fr David Moser

Fitting that it should be in San Francisco, where Russia and Spain once met. María Concepción Argüello, the daughter of Spain's governor for Upper California of the viceroyalty of New Spain, born at the Presidio of San Francisco almost married Duke Nikolai Rezanov, the founder of the Russian-American company which stretched down to Fort Ross (Rossia, "Russia") in Sonoma county. He died going back with a treaty for the czar's signature and for permission to marry, Maria never married and became a nun.

[Daniel Harrison]

I think Ecumenism would be a great and a VERY important topic to include in the discussion. This has been a hot topic on my mind,
ever since i converted to Orthodoxy. It seems that most Jurisdictions in America, are in some type of support of ecumenism, aside from
ROCOR it seems, which I love. I however stand side by side with the Monks of Esphigmenou on this issue with the Double Headed Eagle and
Orthodoxia E Thanatos tattooed on my chest.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I know especially in the GOA that ecumenism it seems more acceptable, then in others, then again
The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...

I would address this issue of Joint Prayer, Ecumenical "dialog", and Communion between the Orthodox and Heterodox.
When I was in boot camp the Orthodox OCA chaplain that I had Communed a Coptic Monophysite because he did not have
a clergy member of his home at the Recruit depot in San Diego. My two cents...

In Christ
Nektarios

[Ryan]

I think Ecumenism would be a great and a VERY important topic to include in the discussion. This has been a hot topic on my mind,
ever since i converted to Orthodoxy. It seems that most Jurisdictions in America, are in some type of support of ecumenism, aside from
ROCOR it seems, which I love.

Ecumenism is a tough one, in my opinion, because the proponents and opponents have different definitions for the word, and often end up talking past each other. For most anti-ecumenists, the word is virtually synonymous with the "branch theory." Orthodox ecumenists generally reject the branch theory, and usually just see ecumenism as dialogue and a kind of missionary activity.

In my opinion, ecumenism, however it's defined, has problematic aspects. I think the "pan-heresy" rhetoric might at times be overblown. On the other hand, there are always things like the Balamand agreement and the "two lungs" statement that are worrisome and which Orthodox Ecumenists seem to ignore in debates on the subject. Overall, I would say participation in groups like the WCC is not worth the discord it causes within the Church. Even if we are there simply to present an Orthodox witness to other Christians, we should face the simple facts- the average Christian, Orthodox or not, does not follow the proceedings of the WCC. Any "witnessing" done at the WCC is chiefly toward official representatives of other denominations, who are unlikely to be swayed, especially in such a relativistic context. So, from the missionary standpoint, membership in the WCC is at best irrelevant in my opinion. At worst, it gives casual observers the impression that the Orthodox recognize the validity of the other churches.



Please correct me if I am wrong. I know especially in the GOA that ecumenism it seems more acceptable, then in others

I think all of the SCOBA jurisdictions in the States are pretty involved in it. Unfortunately, you won't hear much questioning of it at the higher levels.


The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...

Is this something expressly forbidden? I don't know much about how the position of reader is defined. My parish had a woman read the epistle last Sunday, though I don't think she is actually a reader.

[D. W. Dickens]

>> The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...
> Is this something expressly forbidden?

I know of a female reader in the OCA south as well and have heard of women (nuns, and specifically virgins) going behind the altar as well and assisting the priest while he serves at the monastery.

I'm not sure if "Differences in Jurisdictions" is a good way to look at the way Bishops run their own houses. I doubt you'll find any application of permissiveness that would make for a Jurisdiction-wise consistency. My priest tells me that there are wide differences in certain OCA parishes even in the Diocese of the West under a single Bishop!

[Anthony Stokes]

>> The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...
> Is this something expressly forbidden?

I know of a female reader in the OCA south as well and have heard of women (nuns, and specifically virgins) going behind the altar as well and assisting the priest while he serves at the monastery.


Nuns are a different story when it comes to the altar. Also, there is a difference between a woman being blessed to read, as is the case in many churches, and a woman being tonsured an actual Reader. I don't know of that happening in the OCA DOS, but there are many churches where women have been blessed to read at services.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Antonia Colias]

When I was in the Antiochian jurisdiction, decades ago, I was told that I would be tonsured. Mercifully, the priest forgot, and it never happened ! I never read the Epistle, but I chanted every weekend at Vespers and Orthros. Perhaps the priest meant "a blessing"; however, he specifically used the word "tonsuring." I'm glad that he did not do this.



Nuns are a different story when it comes to the altar. Also, there is a difference between a woman being blessed to read, as is the case in many churches, and a woman being tonsured an actual Reader. I don't know of that happening in the OCA DOS, but there are many churches where women have been blessed to read at services.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Peter G.]

And another would be the elements of the Liturgy. For example, in the GOA parish I worshipped in, we did not say the Prayer for the Catechumens. Whereas, in the OCA parish I presenlty worship in, we do say it.

(Sorry I didn't think to add this to my previous post.)
That depends on the church you go to. I've been to GOA and they say the Catachumen and some don't.

[Kosta]

The greek churches except for monasteries tend to follow a shorter typicon. Revised in the 1800's in Constantinople to shorten the length of the services. In Greece and Instanbul where there is hardly no catechumens, they omitted this prayer, some churches which have many converts have reinstated this prayer