Leaving Orthodoxy

[OrthodoxLearner]

Christ is Born!

I was wondering, because I come across alot of Uniates, on some of the other Internet Orthodox/ByzCath message boards, trying to get me to stay in the Byzantine Catholic Church, a few of them I believe 3 are Byzantine Catholics who became Orthodox and then went back to the Uniates.

What would Orthodoxy says happen's to there soul once they come to the True Church of Christ and then leave it?


Poor Sinner In Christ
Daniel

[Justin]

Such a person could possibly be described as someone who had seen the light, but left it for darkness. If that were said, John 3:16-21 comes to mind. (I'm purposely being vague here since I have no right to condemn anyone, whatever they might do or say)

[Herman Blaydoe]

St. Theophan the Recluse said:


"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

I can add no better words to those of this man of God.

Herman

[OrthodoxLearner]

Thank you very very much for that quote.
That answered my question very directly.

In Christ
Daniel

[Marie-Duquette]

The above post makes me shudder! Even though the quote comes from a Saint of the Orthodox Church, when it is taken out of context it seems to reek of un-truth! at least to me. losing one's soul for ever is certainly something to consider in any choice one makes in the Christian Life. . . and even Saints have made mistakes in what they said --- no one is infallible; and, no one can know the mind of God fully. Otherwise one would be very prideful and judgmental of others. And, this is non-Scriptural in my estimation.

Looking to Jesus, the scriptures, and the works of the Fathers and Mothers of Christianity are all to be taken into consideration in a trustful and faith-filled love . . . as well as a life in harmony with that of the Will of God in one's state of life! No one knows in truth was becomes of an individual soul! Forgive my bluntness, Marie Duquette.

pray for me a sinner! God is the All-merciful One!

[Demetrios Galanidis]

Greetings OrthodoxLearner,

I am very glad that the two responses above were so well worded and chosen. It is indeed confusing when one is seeking the Truth to have others, who have seen and experienced Holy Orthodoxy to a degree and then have been tempted perhaps back into error, challenge you. But that is, in itself, not all bad. It will temper your Faith as fire tempers steel.

I do believe I have been following these instances directed at you on these other boards. One user in particular (we'll call him "c-r") states he converted to Orthodoxy for all of 4 months and then renounced the Truth. Hardly a conversion in this sinner's opinion. I have faith that the Lord will guide you with Love.

Demetri

[Marie-Duquette]

Often I read the posts on this message board. I often wonder about "THE FULLNESS of the TRUTH" Seeker and Learner, I always am on my Spiritual Path. am often perplexed about the emphasis that the Orthodox Church possess the Fullness of Truth. I thought the FULLNESS of TRUTH is to be found in the whole of Scripture, the Christian Faith, and Tradition, from Alpha to Omega. And, that the Pleroma comes as an end point of the Spiritual growth process; just as in the seed planted needs to be nurtured day by day, through all of its process to bearing fruit, to benefit the whole. God-Trinity is in the midst of the growth of the whole of Creation at all times. . . no one and nothing is left out in this process towards the Pleroma.

I just get more perplexed when someone seems to speak of the Fullness of Truth as if it is "owned" by the Orthodox Church. sorry, for simplistic input.

Marie Duquette

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mrs Marie Duquette,

Thank you for your posts. I wonder if you could elaborate on what, in particular, you find objectionable about the quotation from St Theophan? Could you identify for us what specifically it is that makes you shudder as you read it?

INXC, Matthew

[Melissa]

Marie - My understanding is that "the fullness of the truth" refers to the fact that the Orthodox Church has retained the teachings of the men and women who got them from Christ, and then through revelation. Many other churches have kept parts of the tradition, eliminating other parts, but only Orhtodoxy has intentionally retained that which was handed down by the early Church and the Church Fathers.

It's not a claim to superiority, just to completeness. Of course, Orthodox do believe that being Christian means living the fullness of the faith - therefore, to leave the Orthodox Church means, among several other things, settling for a less complete expression of the faith - why would one do that? Perhaps out of fear.

Melissa

[richard]

What the father above said was going good til he put in the leaving the Orthodox thing will result in loosing one soul forever. How can he be so certain to make that claim? Scripture says, 'who is he that condemns, it is Christ who died, yea, rather is risen again.

[Lawrence]

I don't believe that St. Theophan is condemning he is alerting. As he is in The Spiritual Life

At the Divine Judgement, those who have received grace and who have not allowed it to act within themselves will first of all have the gift of grace taken away, and they will be plunged into hell. This was revealed by the Savior in the parable of the talent (Luke 19: 11-27)...

then he continues on p. 135

It is expected that we 1) acknowledge the presence of the gift of grace within us; 2) comprehend that the value of the grace for us is so great, that it is more precious than life itself, so that without it life is not even life; 3) p. 133 desire with all of our strength to adapt this grace to ourselves, and adapt ourselves to it, or, to put it another way, desire to imbue our entire nature with it, and to become enlightened and sanctified; 4) resolve to acheive this through the matter itself, and then 5) carry this decision into reality, putting everything else aside, or, having removed one's heart from everything, give it over to the full action of Divine grace...

and then concluding on p. 136

How is it to be for you and me? Will we make excuses and keep putting things off day after day?! May the Lord bestow His enlightening blessing upon you.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Richard,

In short, what St. Theophan the Recluse said was from the perspective of an Orthodox Saint, as such a person who is not Orthodox Christian or struggling to be an Orthodox Christian would understand his words from that perspective.

I hope that makes some sense.

In Christ,

Matthew P.

[Daniel Jeandet]

I can say from my experience that to become Orthodox and then at some point cease wishing to be Orthodox, even if the person still wants to think that he wishes to, results in the loss of the life of the soul. Without a second conversion (or maybe a first) why wouldnt this decision be respected throughout eternity?

The trouble, in my opinion, is the need for the word Orthodox. Fullness of Truth is another one. Thank God many of us no longer need to hold opinions about what either of these terms mean, we know now that they have always meant Christian, Christianity, following the Way, following Christ, following the apostles that followed Him. Evil days demmand too many words.

If I had the tiniest grain of wisdom,
I should walk in the great way,
And my only fear would be to stray from it.
Lao Tzu.

[richard]

L.D., Matthew, Daniel..

Thanks for your responses. There is much said I can agree with. I will attempt a different approach..one from scripture itself..as it pertains to the eternal purpose of the church..the Apostlic way and so forth. I'll post it under my present thread..'as the wind wishes'..and reason together in where you might think I'm missing it, or what. ok? later.

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Mr. Steenberg,

Why I seem to "shudder" when I read that taken-out-of-context quote from St. Theophane the Recluse, is the "dogmatic" "absolute" way it sounds to me . . . Whethere a person is Orthodox, RC, Jewish, or other isn't God the Almighty always in pursuit of the soul of an erring person -- and that is in a sense ALL OF US -- That is the reason, as I can see it, that God in all of Scripture, as well as in History and in the Church is seeking me, us, the erring one, as a God of LOVE and MERCY, as the GOOD SHEPHERD, who leaves the 99 sheep to seek the one that is lost; pick it up, puts it upon His shoulders, etc as the Scripture says.

Grace, a Gift of God, brings me to see this at this time. Marie Duquette (not MRS)

[OrthodoxLearner]

I think the quote is fine, if you come to The True Church then turn your back on it wouldnt you be turning your back on Christ? Thats what comes to mind when I read it...

In Christ
OL

[M.C. Steenberg]

Marie (apologies for having to rush to a first-name basis, but I don't know now whether Ms/Miss is appropriate [depends on one's culture!] and cannot e-mail you to find out),

Thank you for your response. I wonder, what do you assume the proper context of St Theophan's remark to be, and would that context alter its meaning in the regard we are discussing?

INXC, Matthew

[Marie-Duquette]

Matthew,

Thank you for your response. Just Marie is fine! I truly don't know what the proper context of the quote is or where it came from in his writings.

It is the dynamic of moving from Uniate, to Orthodox back to Uniate in the above post#5 by OL and that of Justin Kissel, then HermanB all put together, that brought me to "shudder" at the words: "the losing of one's soul forever!"

while there is still life, and breath, and possibility of REPENTENCE" seems more "THE TRUTH" of God's Word. Who knows how "the Holy Spirit who is everywhere and filleth all things" will pursue the persons involved. . . God is infinitely beyond us in His workings in the midst of His People and in the Mystical Body of Christ. So, as St. Theophane said, this is not our concern, Look at our own sins, and repent, but let the Merciful, all-Loving God deal with the individual souls. Marie

[OrthodoxLearner]

I think St. Theophan saying cant ge more direct then that.

[OrthodoxLearner]

Just to make every thing clear, I am not the one thinking of going back to Byzantine Catholicism!

In Christ
Daniel

[OrthodoxLearner]

St. Theophan said if you come to Orthodoxy and leave your going to hell. Period. Nothing more to, his saying doesnt need to be analyzed, its very simple, and straight forward. Coming to the True Church and leaving it is turning your back on Christ.

In Christ
Daniel

[Rose]

Greetings to all in Christ,

I've been following this discussion with some interest and a thought occurred to me that I would like to share, if I may.

Orthodoxy says that it is the true church and that if you leave it, according to St. Theophan, you'll be going to hell. The Latin church teaches the same thing about itself. They also say (and I'm sure one of their saints has also said) that you are in grave error if you do not accept their teachings and leave their church. They also say they are the true church.

I'm not avocating one church over the other, just making a statement regarding their respective teachings.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear OrthodoxLearner,

In fairness, context is important. If we KNOW that Orthodoxy teaches Truth and we reject it because it is "inconvenient" then we are certainly turning our back on Christ. When we turn our backs to Christ, we are indeed headed in the wrong direction, but individual spiritual paths can have many twists and turns. Ultimate destinations are between each individual and a Just and Loving God who desires that all be saved. Do we know the minds and spiritual state of anyone except ourselves? We should be aware that St. Theophan is giving direction to a specific individual in a specific situation. He tells someone directly that specific actions, if not repented, will have dire consequences and we all do well to consider those consequences for ourselves, but we should NOT seek to impose those consequences on others. That is God's decision ultimately, not ours. All we can do is pray for them and be patient and trust in God, concentrating on our own repentence and transformation so that we can provide a good witness to Christ in our lives, that others will want Him in theirs.

Or so it seems to this simple mind.

Herman

[Owen Jones]

Another couple of points on this track. It is clear from the Fathers, but especially the desert fathers, and from our prayers in the liturgy, that there is no guarantee of salvation, even for those who are Orthodox in a formal sense. Thankfully, I have never heard an Orthodox sermon that guaranteed me a place in heaven, just because I was Orthodox in the formal sense, i.e. showing up for Church and receiving communion.

The other angle is a more troubling predicament. What happens if someone is outside the faith, or leaves the faith, in a formal sense? Or is part of an excommunicated part of the faith? Or is deemed non-canonical?

Biblically, it seems to me hard to make the case that the institutional Church has any monopoly on salvation. Christ's ministry existed almost totally outside the institutional "church."

My favorite line on this is from a priest friend of mine who said that you can drive to Atlanta from here in a Volkswagen or a Rolls Royce. Both will get you there. But why not take the Rolls Royce?

I think that line of argument is very troubling to most clerics, who must maintain some degree of institutional authority and control, and would worry that people would adopt a kind of relativist theology. But if we preach the fullness of the Gospel, and if we live the fullness of the Gospel, we should not need such arguments. The Gospel, afterall, must be attractive to people, not as a theory of anything, but something that they can see in peoples' lives.

Finally, a saint does not have to be right about everything in order to be a saint.

[R.J.G.]

Recall the lives of saints who renounced their faith during persecutions, then repented and became martyrs. Seems that where someone ends up is more important than how they got there.

[Ender Wiggin]

I agree with Mr. Herman,

"I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

How can you be certain that being Orthodox you posses "the Truth". I don't mean to say that the Orthodox way is not the True way. What I mean is what level of understanding as an Orthodox do you have? A new convert to Orthodoxy will not have the same insight into its Truths as someone who lived his whole life as an Orthodox Christian.

"...being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness"

Being an Orthodox does not give you the full Truth by the default. So the statement may only apply to those who really got the fullness of the truth, and who leave it as Mr. Herman says because of "inconvenience".

However, I must explain myself first, I'm no great scholar of the Bible or the Orthodox Church, and I’m probably the least educated on the matters of the Church on this site. So forgive me if I'm in error. I'm an Orthodox Christian, I was born into it, was baptized as a young child. Only recently have I however really become "religious" if you will, as I picked up the Bible and started reading it. So naturally I became interested in the Orthodox Church, because all my family is Orthodox and most of them are practicing Orthodox Christians. I have been visiting this site for a number of months now, almost a year, I have found it very useful but on many topics, it is way too advanced for me.

So I hope that I made some sense out of my comments above.

Being an Orthodox I don't consider myself to be anywhere near the Truth in its fullness, because there is really a lot more that I have to learn in order to gain a deeper understanding of the Truth.

[Owen Jones]

No one can say with certainty whether another will lose his soul forever. One might arguably say that you might risk losing it. But that is all. And I don't believe anyone "possesses" the truth, unless the meaning of that term is qualified. If someone can be sanctified by marriage, our Orthodox worship can sanctify the whole world -- in some mysterious way that cannot be measured.

[John Curtis Dunn]

No one can say with certainty whether another will lose his soul forever. One might arguably say that you might risk losing it. But that is all. And I don't believe anyone "possesses" the truth, unless the meaning of that term is qualified. If someone can be sanctified by marriage, our Orthodox worship can sanctify the whole world -- in some mysterious way that cannot be measured.

Suggested reading: http://www.stjohndc.org/prayers/prayorth.htm

[extract from same]

But seeing the feeble impulses of many, fervently we pray Thee, O all-good Lord: look upon Thy Church and see, that although we have received Thy saving Gospel with gladness, nevertheless the tares of vanity and passions have made it bear little fruit in some, and in others no fruit, and through the multiplication of iniquities some by heresies, others by schism, in opposing the truth of Thy Gospel, apostatize from Thine inheritance, reject Thy grace, and subject themselves to the judgement of Thy most-holy Word. O Most compassionate and all-powerful, be not angry to the end, O Lord! Be merciful, Thy Church prayeth Thee, setting before Thee the author and finisher of our salvation, Jesus Christ, be merciful to us, strengthen us in Thy right faith by Thy might, and unto those that are deceived do Thou enlighten the eyes of their reason by Thy divine light, that they may understand Thy truth: soften their bitterness and open their hearing, that they may know Thy voice and turn to Thee our Saviour.

Correct, O Lord, the corruptions of others and the life not in accordance with Christian piety: make us all to live holy and undefiled, and so let the saving faith take root in our hearts and remain ever fruitful. Turn not Thy face away from us, O Lord, give us the joy of Thy salvation: and grant, O Lord, to the pastors of Thy Church holy zeal, and dissolve their cares for the salvation and conversion of them that are deceived, with the spirit of Thy Gospel: That all being thus guided may, we attain to where there is the perfection of faith, the fulfilment of hope, and true love: and there with the choirs of the most pure heavenly hosts may we glorify Thee our Lord, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, unto the ages of ages.

Choir: Amen.

[Fr Averky]

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Greetings in the Lord Beloved Brothers and Sisters!


On Christmas Eve (January 6), my internet suddenly went completely awry, and it took untitl now, Tuesday morning- to get it up and running, although, there are some glitches- I cannot access the original file of this thread so, I have to start off cold.

I think it very important that we look at the context in which the words of St. Theophan the Recluse; A person ask the saint "Is there salvation for Catholics and Lutherans? St. Theophan responded, "Why do you concern yourself about them? They have a Saviour who watches over them, but if you, as an Orthodox Christian ever leave and join another faith, you will most certainly lose your soul." I certainly accept these words of a saint and not those of any pious layman, and I believe that they mst be heeded..

The point taken is that Orthodoxy does not judge the souls of those not in Her flock, for God, who created every person knows their hearts, intentions, lives, and how much they love Him as they know Him.Thus, his answer is a strict admonition to Orthodox Christians to not even countenance giving up the True Church, for in so doing they will have turned their back on Christ and will have become His enemy.

However, putting this into the context of converts, and particularly American converts, the question is not quite so simple. St Theophan was speaking to a fellow Russian during the early 19th century, and both lived in an Orthodox country and atmosphere. While his answer remains the same, the context has changed a great deal, even in Russia.

In our racially, culturally and religiously mixed society, we are witnessing how children can no longer mention God in public prayers due to the great influx of non-Christians in the last 40 years. When I was a boy, America was basically a White, Protestant and conservative nation. Although Spanish by background and a Roman Catholic, given the particular circumstances of our family, I was raised in that same society..

As those of us who are older remember, with the 1960s, the whole world we knew vanished. The polite, comfortable life in which we had lived for so many decades was swept away by the Viet Nam War. Vatican II, The Free Speech Movement, and even the Hippies, Free Love, the Drug Culture and Rock music. Our traditional values vanished.

All of these converging elements dissolved forever what earlier was expected of a person-that he be a Chritian, faithful to the government, part of the "Establishment," politically and morally conservative, and secure in all of that. "Casual"
was a word unknown to us, and we had set standards of dress and behaviour for any given social situation.

Coming back to the subject, in light of those amazing events, the view of religion has changed drastically, for Americans have the possibility of experiencing a large range of religious experiences and forms. A person can practise Yoga, use crystals and aroma therapy, be sure that he is watched over by his "Angel," a sort of demi-god having nothing to do with Christianity. He can be a Shintoist or Buddhist, a Mormon, or a Muslim, or...any combination of the above, or more frequently, going from church to religion and any number of any other churches as he chooses. Of course, he can always be an Episcoplalia in the U.S. which encompasses a wide range of conflicting beliefs..Thus, sometimes being Orthodox is but a stop in the "faith journey" that people imagine themselves to be on. The problem in all of thiss is that they actually have no faith.

Given all of this, Americans become Orthodox along the way without having the deep sense of committment that is need to sustain one's Orthodox Christianity. Impressed by the beauty of the services, candles, incense, beautiful vestments and the music of the Church, they become "enthralled" with the "Mysticism" of the Church, and want to sign up right away. They read five books and are ready to "teach."

There are many difficulties for the average convert in the U.S Many of the Orthodox Churches are still very "ethnic," either in the use of language in Divine Services, or in the national and cultural make-up of a given parish. Yet, if a person is willing to humbly submit himself to the rich treasurey of a given Church, be it Greek, Russian Serbian, and so on, he will be able in time to understand Orthodoxy from that stand point, not as from the American "Salad Bar" menatality, picking or rejecting those aspects of Christian life that they might "prefere," buit from the understanding that Orthodoxy is a complete way of, a world view, a mattere of the heart, knowledge that comes only after many years.

I have seen time and time again that in parishes made up entirely of converts, including the priest, getting a realistic grasp on the meaning of Christian struggle and the desire to reach Theosis is very difficult, almost impossible. Visiting such parishes, I found that the people were either smug or quite silly, and sometikjes bothj, often making light of some of the aspect of the Church they could not accept. The Matushka at one such parish told me that the "Church needs to get serious, have different Gospel readings, do away with Fasts, to allow clergy to marry more than once and not to expect so much from busy 'modern' peopl. Here fellow converts all nodded eagerly-who did they have to teach them? No one, only their pride and imagined knowledge.

I was once sent to be the temporary choir director at a small Midwestern parish, and there were only two Russian parishioners, a woman and her aged mother. The converts deeply revered "Babushka," because being in her mid-eighties, she was the anchor of the parish, the true link for them to see and better understand what the FAith should mean to them. She was not a learned peerson, or a theologian-but she lived a life completely imbued with Orthodoxy. She knew so many pious traditions, fasted strictly, prayed fervently, and would come up with a bit of motherly advice or a sharp reproach that pierced the soul. She knew so many things to be done in an around church-she was a class room and spiritual mother to the entire parish. Many years ago, Fr. Herman told me that for an American to come to any understanding of Orthodoxy, he has to fully immerse himself in the culture of the people whose Church he has joined. Too many converts desire to view Orthodoxy from the cozy chair of the intellect, losing out on the joys of struggling.

The vast majority of all American, all convert parishes are devoid of any knowledge other than what they have read and all the baggage of past false religious beliefs they have brought with them. A perfect example is the "Evangelical Orthodox," started by the founders of the "College Cuisade for Christ," in the 60's. The leaders of this group "read" themselves into believing that the Early Church, the Orthodox Church is the true Chuirch. Being pioneering Americans, they founded their own orthodox church, a strange admixture of Orthodoxy and Fundamentalist Protestism. They had married bishops and practises with whith they had grown up with as Evangelicals

They developed their own liturgics, vestments, "theology," and singing, and combined it with what little they knew about True Orthodoxy. And they were very proud of what they had done.

Having applied to the Great Church and having been soundly rejected, they turned to mthe Metropolitan of one of major jurisdictions in the U.S. Out of great love and mercy, that hierarch was enthuseed by their fervour, and sadly, ordained 27 of them at a single liturgy, which is not a cananoical act. (recently, the Ecumenical Throne declared them to be null and void).

Sonn this group had built some very impressive churches, opened a thriving printing business, and their leaders went around the country speaking about their conversion and rejpoiced in their new Faith. But the hater of Souls stepped in, and in but a few years, but problems began to surface. I attended a talk given by Rev. Sparks, who in the course of hios presentation spoke of the appelation of the Motheer of God, "Higher than the Angles," then he said something which caused an audible gasp from the audience: "Just think, when we die, we too will be higher than the angels, for we are sons of God and inheritors of the kingdom." Later, I asked to speak tom him privatly, and asked him iof he noticed the reqdtion to his remark.He said that he had, and it hat "puzzled" him. "Father," I said, can you really imagine that you, who like any of us has spent a life mired in sin and denying
Christ and at times being un-godly, could ever presume that we could be higher than the angels in contrast to the most perfect, humble, obedient, and sinless life of the Mother of God?" He thanked me, and said he accepted my words and would never utter such words again. But where did he get such an idea in the first place? Not from Orthodox teching but his own prideful thoughts and those of his fellow " American Orthodox experts."

Having been granted a certain amount of autonomy under the auspices of their Metropolitan, their "American" idea of Orthodoxy emerged more and more into the public eye. They continued to have their own liturgical forms, but worse, it was soon seen thzt they had not really accepted Orthodoxy at all. Members of the main part of the church, visiting the "EO" parishes soon noted irregularities, the worst of which was the refusal of some of them to call the Most Holy Mother of God, "Theotokos." If you look at the prayers to be found at the back of the so-called "Orthodox Study Bible," you will find a selection of prayers and "Not a Single Prayer to ther Mother of God! If you look at the notes in the same publication, you will that they are given with an entirely Protestant slant, which is dangerous for the innocent.

In the end, almost all of these clergy were formally defrocked after they refused to come in line with the thinking of the Church. I have mentioned this before, but one of their high ranking clergy was heard to remark, "We will just have to teach these simple ethnics what Orthodoxy is really all about." You see, they never realy understood or could have understood, for they had no cradle Orthodox to anchor them. Their Orthodoxy was created in their image and ws watered with the sewer water of pride.

I do not know the original point of this thread, but I want to share with all my fellow converts the idea that we did not come to Orthodoxy to "feel good." Orthodoxy does not offer the lie that one is "saved" by a few words. At the same time, She does not claim that just being Orthodox is sufficient for salvation. The requirement is the same for all of us-to take up our CROSS and follow Him. We have to expect the things which St. Paul speaks of in his Epistles-cold, hunger, imprisonment, rejection, being cast out, to suffer patiently as our Lord suffered for us. Thus must we approach joyfully the fasts, feasts and prayers and laws of the Church, for they are the path markers, the helps, the guideposts, and the consolations of the Orthodox life. If a person only comes to Orthodoxy for the apparent exterior beauties of the Church, all too soon he will face the reality of what he must do. Like the seed cast by the sower, some fell on rock, some among weeds, and only a few fell on good soil. And that "Good soil" must be our willingness to love God enough thatm it hurts. Better to feel not so good and to suffer in this dark world, and be joyful forever in the next, rather than those who like the hireling, run away in fear, who will have their brief "reward in this life, joining a group which will bring them the benefits of this world but will have no reward waiting for them in the next, but a eternity without God. The choice is clear, so anyone who is thinking about abandoning the Good Race, better think and pray, and be patient. The main aspect that Orthodoxy possesses that no ther christian group does is that She is "therapeutic," as Met. Philotheos describes. Only in Orthodoxy do we understand the meaning of spiritual struggle and the acquiring of virtues. The other Christian churches are of this world with all of its values, they give false assurances, but cannot heal, for they themselves are in spiritual delusion and darkness. God will save His own, but to any Orthodox who want tro leave-you will find out soon enough what darkness you have cast yourself into-this I can tell you with surety, for I could tell ypou sad stries of what happened to those who gave up the fight, and in the end, perished..

In Christ,

Fr. A..

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Fr. A:

Glory to God! Glory to Jesus Christ! How good it is to see you back at it and that the only problem was the computer. You're the 3rd person this week to mention a computer crash. Wonder if it's catching? Hope not.

Per this post #641, I am so grateful that my spiritual father is cradle Orthodox because I thought to myself the best place to learn about Orthodoxy was from those who have lived it all their lives. Thus I feel the "ethnic" church I attend is rich and I especially love that the Liturgy is said in Greek and English. But I do not say this to be disparaging to those who are having different experiences than I.

As you had warned me a while ago to brace myself for what may come, I tried and it did. My biggest struggle is trying to accept the fact that this is from God, or at least allowed by Him, for the heart ache's mightily. Thus I struggle and try to keep my eyes to God, trusting Him in all, and recognizing that it is better to struggle now on earth so that I might taste heaven later.

With love in Christ, Trudy (sinner)

[Daniel Jeandet]

Thumbs up to Ender, Owen and Father A. (I hope "thumbs up" means something good in your countries as well http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[OrthodoxLearner]

Father Bless.

Dear: Father A,

Slava Isusu Christu!

Thank you for that extremley long but very good and informational post. Thouse Evangelical "Orthodox" were supposed to be Antiochian Orthodox Correct?

My Antiochian Priest, was a convert from Episcopalianism (American-Anglicanism) good thing he is not like that, he ended up to be more of a Traditionalist then any thing eles (Thank God).

Thank you for the commentary, on St. Theophan, being only 18 and born in 85 I dont really know all about the "hippie" days but I can see that our world is going to Hell in a Hand basket. Being in a public school I see so many bad things, there is a girl in my pyschology class who is my age and already pregnant who is getting an abortain some time soon, very very sad.

Getting back to St. Theophan.
The people I know who have became Orthodox but then went back to the Unia, would that not be what St. Theophan is talking about in a sense?
I know one individual who was Unia became Orthodox and left to the eastern Catholics again because of the "disorginization" of Orthodoxy, and because specific beliefs were not Dogmatized. Specifically Abortion and Contraception. I believe in my oinion St. Theophans teaching would apply in this case.

Talking to some of the Uniates they have used
Orthodoxy as a stop in their "Faith Journey".
Leaving Eastern Catholics because their parish was not in appearance "eastern" enough. Simply sad what religious america has come to.

In Christ
Daniel

Sorry for the mindless rambling.

[Richard Leigh]

But where did he get such an idea in the first place? Not from Orthodox teching but his own prideful thoughts and those of his fellow " American Orthodox experts."

Dear Father Averky,

Rev. Sparks got the idea that like the Lord God's human mother, when we are risen and with him we will be higher than the angels from St. Paul's statement to the Corinthians: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" [1Cor.6:3]. He no doubt expected that Orthodox believers would believe (if not exactly be familiar with) the Apostle's writing.

Your statement to Sparks taught him manners in public speaking, especially to Orthodox, but did not change the Orthodox teaching of the scripture.

Of coures, keeping a humble mind about it is very important.

Yours,
Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Trudy,


Keep struggling, beg Gof for patience, humility and the grace to accept God's will. Hold on, for the roller coaster ride has not yet even started.

Daniel,
Thank you for your kind words.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

For general interest, and as a step in the other direction (ie towards Orthodoxy) : there is to be a celebration of Russian Orthodox Great Vespers by Bishop Basil of Sergievo, the acting diocesan bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church in Britain, at 3 pm this coming Saturday, 17/1, in Westminster Cathedral. He will be preaching on the theme of the Feast of Theophany. This is the first such celebration of its kind, and will be an historic moment. The head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in Britain, Archbishop Gregorios of Thyateira, will also be preaching at Mass in the cathedral on the following Sunday, 18/1.

This seeker hopes to be at one or both of the services.

[OrthodoxLearner]

"Mass" ?? I didnt know we used the Roman Catholic Liturgy?

In Christ
Confused

[Herman Blaydoe]

Non-Orthodox (particularly news services) often refer to Liturgy as "Mass" (we're just eastern or Greek Catholics right? :-). I have even heard more than one Carpatho-Russian Orthodox use "Mass" instead of "Liturgy." I wince and move on...

Be aware that M A Jackson-Roberts is not Orthodox, not American nor Russian nor Greek, and not aware of Orthodox "pet-peeves."

Herman

[Arsenios]

Richard Leigh writes:


Rev. Sparks got the idea that like the Lord God's human mother, when we are risen and with him we will be higher than the angels from St. Paul's statement to the Corinthians: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" [1Cor.6:3]. He no doubt expected that Orthodox believers would believe (if not exactly be familiar with) the Apostle's writing.

I believe the Orthodox understanding to be that Paul is referring to the fallen angels, Dear Richard... In common parlance, the demons...

Those things are in a bigger fix that we are!

Arsenios

[M.C. Steenberg]

Marie Duquette wrote, regarding the original topic of this thread (the 'losing of one's soul') and the quotation from St Theophan, and in response to my question:


It is the dynamic of moving from Uniate, to Orthodox back to Uniate in the above post [...] then HermanB all put together, that brought me to "shudder" at the words: "the losing of one's soul forever!" while there is still life, and breath, and possibility of REPENTENCE" seems more "THE TRUTH" of God's Word. Who knows how "the Holy Spirit who is everywhere and filleth all things" will pursue the persons involved [...] God is infinitely beyond us in His workings in the midst of His People and in the Mystical Body of Christ. So, as St. Theophane said, this is not our concern, Look at our own sins, and repent, but let the Merciful, all-Loving God deal with the individual souls.

The notion that we are called to be concerned with the state of our own souls, and not that of others' (unless such be our duty and call, as in the case of a spiritual father, parish priest, etc.), is of coure quite right. Fr Averkii has shown how this was, in some sense, St Theophan's intention in his comment.

Yet the original context of the question that began this thread was to some degree one of personal concern, and a fair question. What is the Orthodox teaching on the state of a person --be it an anonymous 'other' or my own self-- who, having embraced the Faith, then rejects it? We are not meant to write off this question as if it speaks of another and thus lies outside the realm of such thoughts and knowledge that God desires of the individual. Phrase it in the first-person if such is more helpful: "What would my state be, were I, having been brought up in / converted to / more fervently embraced the Faith, then rejected it?"

INXC, Matthew

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Herman: re your #147: I am not sure why you felt motivated to address my avowed interest in Orthodoxy in a set of negatives; what does it avail that I am not Orthodox, nor American, Russian, or Greek, when precisely the same can be said of other contibutors? Are these perhaps a protected category of "saved" people? As to "pet peeves", reading this website makes many of those as plain as day.

a (mildly cross) seeker

[Photini]

Dear Mr. Steenberg,

After asking myself that question about 2 and a half years ago, I, in a sense, hung that "Orthodoxy or Death" banner around my heart. For I know, were I to turn my back on the Orthodox Faith, I would be betraying Christ and would die forever.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Matthew & community,

I only obtained a computer which the parish purchased for me about a month ago. So I am a real beginner to this electronic world. But I must say that Monachos impressed me from the beginning & especially the tone of the discussions ongoing- full of sobriety, insight & also (crucially) charity.

What I wished to convey was the following to Matthew's question: "What is the Orthodox teaching concerning someone who having once embraced the Faith then rejected it?" (rough quote)

Obviously this is harmful to someone's salvation;the teaching of Christ, the saints, the witness of the Church is clear on this. However as to a particual person's ultimate loss of their soul, 'going to Hell'; this is more difficult for us who are not saints to know. But in a real sense to walk away from the Light of Christ's Church nessarily implies falling into darkness.We should not fool ourselves about this; to plead ignorance concerning a person's final fate should not allow us an ignorance concerning what is of Christ and His Church and what not.

As a priest let me offer the following observation: when people come to Christ's Church there is often an initial joy: my spiritual father called this the 'honeymoon' period. But then God allows trials to come; this is allowed thru God's love so that we may grow in Christ. Here for the beginner there can be a fiery trial of accepting what God allows. This can be called 'the fiery bridge';all who want to continue as Orthodox Christians must cross this bridge; for it is at this point that Christ gives each of us our cross, our means to salvation, To turn back at this point is disaster & tragedy; but each must freely choose. Forwards or backwards?

It is in this pastoral sense that I would like to respond to Matthew's question. To the extent that our leaving Christ's path (His Church) was an act of self-will (ie not some 'blind ignorance'-if such really does exist) to this extent we fall and that fall is like a weight that henceforth closes the door towards Christ unless & until we repent of this. To put it positively- it is thru such repentance that many 'return to Christ'. And for those who fall we must of course pray for.

Forgive my wordiness. In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear Seeker,

I can assure you I meant no offense. Someone made comment about the use of the word Mass to describe the Orthodox Liturgy. Some Orthodox are sensitive to using it that way. I was trying to explain that since you are not Orthodox, you should not be expected to know that. A non-American might not be aware of the distinction we make between Mass and Liturgy, and a non-Orthodox might not understand why some would be sensitive to it. That is all I meant, not that anybody is "better" than anyone else.

Please forgive my obviously poor and crude manner of expression.

Herman, least among the brethren and first among sinners

[Fr Averky]

Dear Seeker,

Calm down, and do not be like that Troll Averky: Herman was simply informing young Daniel that since you are not Orthodox, or the Orthodox peoples he mentioned, you might not know many of our liturgical terms.

If the bishop is going to serve just the Great Vespers, there will be communion service at all, for Vespers is a late aternoon or early evening service, but does not have either a Mass or Liturgy included.

Daniel is young, and is moving towards Orthodoxy, so I hope both of you will learn more.

Love
Fr. Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard Leigh,

Thank you foryour kind clarification. I am hoping some other Orthodox priests will give voice and tell us what they have learned or know.


All I can say Richard is that Orthodox Tradition, hymnology hagiography consistently gives that title only to the Mother of God, and this where I got my information. I have never heard of any saint who was given that title.

At any rate, what I am stumbling to say is Jack Spark's thoughts on the subject were not in keeping with Orthodox teaching concerning the Mother of God. As a Lutheran you might find this offensive. It also ruffled some people not because it was said, but how it was said.

Thank you Richard,
ever-your well - wisher,

Fr. A.

[Moses Anthony]

Father Bless!

Father Averky,

Many years ago as an undergraduate, along with a dear friend of mine I sat in the chapel of a church related university, to hear a Christian singer, who some years later -that is, after surrendering to Christ- joined Roman Catholicism. My friend and I were there because we both knew him to be a very good musician; however, when he mentioned that we should especially honor Mary the Mother of God, our Protestant "righteous indignation" was offended. We both got up and left the concert.

I mention that to say this: Before my former priest led us in leaving Methodism, I rode with him to Love Field (an airport) to pick up the V. Rev. Fr. Gordon Walker, one of the men who formed the EOC. During the ride back here, I asked him what the diffrence between archmandrite and archpriest, which you very well know. He also said that he would never be a Bishop, because of the fact of being married. In the living room of the parsonage of my former priest, Fr. Walker spoke to those who would eventually form the necleus of the Orthodox Study Group. One of the things he said that they all had to accept, coming from Protestantism, was the Orthodox teaching about Mary the Theotokos. I knew what he was talking about!

Metropolitian Philip, Primate of the AOA, when he received the EOC into Holy Orthodoxy gave them some requirements to follow. The problems you mention were a result of a West Coast parish attempt to so things as they wished, and to put themselves under the spiritual suthority of another jurisdiction. Fr. Walker left as our liazon with the AOA, and his parish in Tennessee as a result of our Primate sending him to helpstraighten the situation out.
Before our Orthodox Study Group became Holy Transfiguration, I met and spoke briefly with another of the founders of the EOC,( the V. Rev. Fr. Peter Guillquist), at a public seminar held at a local bookstore. (Pray for him, as the last I knew he struggled with prostate cancer, which may be in remission).

When I and my family decided to convert to Orthodoxy, my oldest daughter stunned me when she said what I felt, "This is a lifetime decision"!

I will not leave Orthodoxy, as it is what I and so many others searched for; and spoke about, for many years, first century Christianity.

Fr. Sparks, as Matthew well knows, is directing the efforts in producing the Orthodox Study Bible Project, and if he or any other member of the AOA clergy, (who're formerly of the EOC) were to say something not in line with Orthodox thought, do you not think that our Primate would correct him. Which brings up another point, the Ecumenical Patriarch: The defrocking of all the former members of the EOC would mean something, if they were under his spiritual authority, and not that of His Holiness, Patriarch Ignatius IV, of Antioch. (HMMM)

One of the problems I see for the future of Orthodoxy in America, is that to many outsiders, Holy Orthodoxy is seen as ethnic, as people/foreigners coming to America, and bringing their religion with them. For, there was no division for many cradle orthodox coming to America, between their nationality and their religion. But, we know that the truth of Orthodoxy, is not defined by any nationality, not even by any one jurisdiction. However, for the Church to survive, she (Holy Orthodoxy) must transform the culture in which her people reside. And from where I sit, that's going to take a while, and it's going to take people staying the sourse, regardless fo whether or not the parish offers this or that "ministry"

As long as there are people on this earth, there will be problems in the Church. But then, I didn't come to Orthodoxy because of the people, I came because of the Truth. To be intellectually honest, I had to convert, and now, well as my daughter said "....."

the unworthy servant

[Marie-Duquette]

A question in regards to this thread about "losing one's soul" as stated in the quote by St. Theophane the Recluse:

Does "losing one's soul" and "going to hell" mean the same thing?

I still "shudder" when I hear or read such absolute terms . . . It sounds too fundamentalist to me! I prefer to read the Gospel and to see Christ Jesus as a Person in a personal relationship, through PRAYER. Rather than trying to understand the words put out by mere humans, and thus interpreted by them.

Marie Duquette

[Rebecca]

Marie,


Does "losing one's soul" and "going to hell" mean the same thing?

I ask: what is the Orthodox teaching about what hell is?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Marie,

The words refer to a real state that comes about if we persistantly reject the love Christ offers us; we should shudder when we hear such things but sadly we often are indifferent. The words come from Christ; the saints 'interpret' ie open up to us their deeper significance. Please I beg you, I have met a real saint (Fr Paisios of Karyes) and there is nothing 'mere' about the saints like Theophan the Recluse although obviously they are human!

Dear Marie- the saints are saints because they live so fully in Christ- and from this living in Christ they see God's purpose in a way we are blind to due to our sin. So there is nothing extreme in what we hear from these holy ones- they see Truth. There is nothing to fear. But here is a question for all of us: do we trust the words of those who see more clearly than us, or do I follow my own poor vision? The answer is obvious: Lord help me to see!

In Christ- Fr R

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Just as a minor clarification (primarily to Fr Raphael): the question on the state of one's soul on leaving the Church was not mine, as was presented in a previous post -- I was, rather, re-stating the question posed by someone else.

INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Regarding the sub-thread on the relationship of humans to angels, vis-a-vis the Mother of God, etc.; a few quotations from the above:


Richard Leigh wrote: [He] got the idea that like the Lord God's human mother, when we are risen and with him we will be higher than the angels from St. Paul's statement to the Corinthians: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" [1Cor.6:3]. He no doubt expected that Orthodox believers would believe (if not exactly be familiar with) the Apostle's writing.

Fr Averky replied: All I can say Richard is that Orthodox Tradition, hymnology hagiography consistently gives that title only to the Mother of God, and this where I got my information. I have never heard of any saint who was given that title.

While not a specific title given to a saint, the words of Irenaeus describing the initial state of man in the cosmos are interesting here:

"Therefore, having made the man lord (kyrios) of the earth and of everything that is in it, God secretly appointed him as lord over those [angels] who were servants (douloi) in it. They, however, were in their full development, while the lord, that is, the man, was very little, for he was an infant (nipios), and it was necessary for him to reach full development by growing" (Irenaeus of Lyons, Epideixis 12).

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Averky]

Marie,

Welcome! I do not know if you are Orthodox or not, but from the Orthodox point of view, Jesus Christ indeed is a person, and He shares in our humanity, allowing us to share in His divintiyu. At the same time, He is a Person-second Person of the Holy Trinity the Son of God, so our relationship with Him is both-as our Brother, who lived on earth, who comforted and healed so many, who suffered rejection, even by His own, and in the end, He was cruelly killed by those who could not see that He was the one they had been longing for
But now, more importantly, He is God, the Person who by the will of His Father created all things, and who on the Last Day will come in Glory to judge all men that ever were. Because of this, He is to be worshipped and praised and glorified and worshipped as our Saviour, so He is not a big brother with whom we can be familiar.My family for centuries served the Crown of Spain, and once my grandfather said, "Monarch are very gracious and kind, bu if one crosses the line into familiarity, he will gently be reminded of his place." So too with God, we must always show Him respect and keep our place. One sad thing about today's society-no ojne knows his place, or how to keep it.

As regards to saints to being "mere humans," well, that is very true, but it also known that these men and women knew and loved God in a most amazing way, and their thoughts and writing have been preserved over the centuries of the Church to be guide posts and places to rest on our difficult journey to salvation.

They are known for the true miracles they worked in the Name of Christ: healing the sick, raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, and healing the lame and halt.These men and women were inspired by the Holy Spirit; for example, a recenty canonized Russian Saint, Ignatii Briachanininov appeared to a monk not long after his death and proclaimed, "Read and follow what i have written, for my words were inspired by God." I do not know about you, but no one who I know has ever said that to me.

If your are a Protestant, or a convert from Protestantism, I could well understand your looking at the words of St.
Theophan in a legalistic or black and white understanding. So muich of the truth of Orthodoxy is Mystery, and only if we are humble and obedient, will we be given to see these spiritual treasures.

If you will read my rather long post on St.
theophan's words, you will find that I did attempt to put it in a more broad understanding, rather as an "Absoluite." On the other hand, I am sure that I most certainly trust St. Theophan and heed his words. It is not so important who said them, but that they were said by a person who was loved by God. *I find that any negative reaction seems not so much to their being "absolute," but that one has to heed them. I would not take the risk not to. Anything that even approaches a great deal of struggle, is seen as to "legalistic." Well, there are Laws, and we need to obey them.

If you are non-Orthodox, or recently became Orthodox, you are facing the same struggle that so many of us have had. We have had quite a discussion about the higher value of oberdience as to that of love, and it has caused quite a stir among some members.

As Americans, who from childhood were taught that all monarchs are evil despots, whose authority must be taken from him, or if we were raised in Protestantism we know of the fear and dread we feel in our hearts when the "Soverignity" of God is mentioned.

To Orthodox Christian, Our Lord is the Prince of Peace, and He is meek and tender of heart, He is the desired Bridegroom of our souls, and we long for unity with Him. Througout the Bible , OT and NT, we see so very many indications how very important obedience to God and His Law is: yet it is an obedience born out of love, and watered with tears, and is not seen as some terrible oppression. it is the painful, but willful giving up our will, our life, our entire being to Christ. St. Paul's letters speak a great deal about obedienmce, Our Saviour spoke of it as well, in the Old Testament, obedience was a matter of life and death(see King Saul).

I do not how to truly answer you, but in Orthodoxy, we do not speak of "rights," "opinions," or "our way" of doing things when it comes to matters of Salvation. The Orthodox Church is the True Ark of Salvation, and all who wish to stay on its salvific decks we must make the constant effort to be of one heart and of one mind with others in matters of the Faith. If we begin to accept what we consider to be "our" priorities, and have our own "opinions," not listening to the Wisdom of the Fathers, in time, we will fall overboard and be lost at sea. I always find itamazing when the idea of "obediencde" is brought up: people begin to react, to object, to fijnd all kind of reason why their view is more comfortable. Perhaps it is, but I have livced in monastic obredience almost half of my life, and it is ohe of my life's great comforts. This not because I a am a monk, but because I am doing my best to licve a Christian life.

Fr. A.

[Arsenios]

Fr. Raphael writes:

"...I have met a real saint (Fr Paisios of Karyes) and there is nothing 'mere' about the saints..."

I was a difficult child in my entry into the Church, and got myself into some real hot water, spiritually, and was brought to one of our Bishops [as a miscreant catechumen], who told me I needed to gather courage for true repentance...

And you are right, there is absolutely nothing 'ordinary' about these God-bearing Fathers, except that they are utterly ordinary in being so fully human, while at the same time doing things spiritually that are nothing short of miraculous...

Because all my wounds, and they were grievous, spiritual, and mortal, were healed in that encounter of less than one minute... I would not have believed it had it not been me... Five minutes later there was not a trace of them left...

They are flat out no ordinary souls, these...

And even with that part of my entry into the Church, I still do not have a solid sense of the fear of the Lord operating in me, and I am still floundering at the gates of repentance, seeking the gift of tears... Having only an occassional sniffle...

But I was only baptized last March 5th, so I am just struggling along and trusting the process... I will cross the bridge, as you call it, in due time, I pray...

Arsenios

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Fr Averky;

thanks to you, as always. I did not allow my blood pressure to be unduly elevated by this incident, nor did I take offence where (I am sure) none was meant. Though I was mildly alarmed by the tone of Herman's post regarding me, this was really rooted in a fear lest I had unwittingly caused him or others in this community some displeasure as a result of one of my heretical disclosures.

a mollified seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Herman (re your #149);

thank you, and I am sorry that I responded in such a grumpy manner; it had not been a particularly good working week for me and I was thoroughly out of sorts when I read your post (and please accept the further explanation contained in my #98 in response to Fr Averky's good advice). I really am seeking the truth, you know.

a humble seeker

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear George,
Christ is in our midst.

I wish that I could tell the whole world about Fr Paisios- it was 1986 I was fresh from North America and wandering in more ways than one. He was clearly waiting for me and I was in such turmoil! But he answered me before I could ask the question; actually by this point I wasn't too sure what the question was anymore- just a jumble of pain. 'Go back to North America' came the words; he had seen me 3 months before in a large crowd at his kelli near Karyes, we spoke for a few minutes', nothing 'dramatic'. Now how could he even remember who I was?

What was amazing was his spiritual 'space'. This time it was like you were here but not not here, there was a peace you could almost touch. Turmoil melted away. I arrived at his kelli on the edge of an abyss I left joyful like a little boy.

I have heard some say that the saints have died out. Physically perhaps but I wonder if rather they have just followed God's will to fulfill His Holy purposes in other ways which we do not recognise yet. Last summer someone said to me referring to the new book of Fr Paisios' Epistles, "how wonderful that so many different Orthodox people can now read this". Yes to heal and bring together that which was once so grievously divided in Christ's Holy Church.

The struggle is there dear George but you have such an incredible blessing- these saints of our time standing before the throne Of God praying for us- and their words in those books in a language we can understand- when I began in 1978 I think we had only about 5 Orthodox books available in English on the shelf! But God gives who and what we need.

In Christ- Fr R

[George Hawkins]

Dear Seeker,

Look no further! The Truth is the Church. Christ said "I AM the Way, and the Truth and the Life..."

May God's blessings be with you,

George

[Melissa]

Father Raphael,
Could you please give the full title of the book of Father Paisios' Epistles? I'd like to try to find it.
Thank you,
Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Melissa,

The full title is: Elder Paisios of Mount Athos: Epistles. Published by Holy Monastery Evangelist John the Theologian, Souroti, Greece.

This and other books that the elder wrote can be obtained thru St Herman of Alaska Press: sthermanpress.com.

In Christ Fr R

"The two extremes always weary Mother Church, as well as those who hold to them, because the two extremes as a rule stab one another...In other words, it is as if the one extreme is held by a possessed man who is spiritually insolent(and feels contempt for everything), and the other extreme is held by a madman who is childishly zealous with narrow-mindedness. God forbid- these two ends could strike at one another continually and 'an end to it all' no one will find.

Those who will be able to bend these two extremes and make them unite, will be crowned by Christ with two imperishable crowns," Epistles p.135

[Arsenios]

Fr. Raphael Bless!

> Dear George,
> Christ is in our midst.

And ever shall be!

>>> I wish that I could tell the whole world about Fr Paisios- it was 1986 I was fresh from North America and wandering in more ways than one. He was clearly waiting for me and I was in such turmoil! But he answered me before I could ask the question; actually by this point I wasn't too sure what the question was anymore- just a jumble of pain. 'Go back to North America' came the words; he had seen me 3 months before in a large crowd at his kelli near Karyes, we spoke for a few minutes', nothing 'dramatic'. Now how could he even remember who I was?<<<

According to the Bishop, who talked with our parish after liturgy, he says that it really is not him, but Christ within him, the he himself is just an old man who likes sweets and can be pretty demanding, but that this man is not the functionary in his role as bishop...

>>> What was amazing was his spiritual 'space'. This time it was like you were here but not not here, there was a peace you could almost touch. Turmoil melted away. I arrived at his kelli on the edge of an abyss I left joyful like a little boy.

That's it! I arrived WITHIN the abyss, and emerged whole... And I watched the skin on his face as he spoke so briefly with me, and it fairly bristled with an almost dancing light, as if it were highly charged with living static electricity... I've never seen anything like it, and I have seen a fair amount...<<<

>>> I have heard some say that the saints have died out. Physically perhaps but I wonder if rather they have just followed God's will to fulfill His Holy purposes in other ways which we do not recognise yet.<<<

The affluent, spoiled, and self-centered west is the last frontier for Orthodoxy, I should think... When it has run its course here, [and who knows how long that run can last?], I think the end times will be upon us all... Glad it's not my call! Lord knows we need saints badly, but who will hear them?

>>> Last summer someone said to me referring to the new book of Fr Paisios' Epistles, "how wonderful that so many different Orthodox people can now read this". Yes to heal and bring together that which was once so grievously divided in Christ's Holy Church.<<<

The Orthodoxy of the internet and B. Dalton's... Yet the books help...

>>> The struggle is there dear George but you have such an incredible blessing- these saints of our time standing before the throne Of God praying for us- and their words in those books in a language we can understand- when I began in 1978 I think we had only about 5 Orthodox books available in English on the shelf! But God gives who and what we need.<<<

Well, it sure was MY final exam of the reality and truth of Orthodoxy... I am too faithless to not test, and the test turned out to be life and death, and I failed it, and Orthodoxy passed...

Glory to God!

And one of the somewhat strange things that has ensued has been my sense of this holy man watching over me, almost as a spiritual father with whom I need no words... Lord knows that whenever I have encountered major temptations, and responded with alarm, I have had spiritual back-up that has gotten me through... For the first week after the meeting, all I had to do, in temptations, was remember his face... I stopped doing that because it made things too easy to face down... But even now, if I start getting into trouble, I call on him, and come out of it...

Such is the nature of this ex-catechumen's struggle! [It took me 4 years from my decision to become Orthodox to get baptized - Two just to be made a catechumen... Every kept asking me when I was getting baptized, and I had to tell them that I needed to be catechized first...

This is WAY too long a post...

[geo] Arsenios

[Fr Averky]

Would all the lay people please refrain from greeting each other with "Christ is in our midst!" I was actually mentioning this privately to Father Rafael, and it is soething that in my humility I would like to teach you about, or at least tell you, if I may.

Just as "Writing" icons became popular about twenty years ago among neophyte American icon painters- Americans love innovations -so did it become popular for priests ordained around that tike to give that greeting at the beginning of a sermon, or more often, when giving the cross after Divine Liturgy. A few famous Elders, like Elder John of Valaamo did, but he was an Elder.

As nice as this all sounds, it is not proper. Just as it is not proper to tell new converts not to take a saint's name, but to keep theirs, "Because youi will become a saint, and people will take your holy name! Now that is a lesson in humility!

Summarizing what I just mentioned to Fr.
Raphel in a private kmessage. An aged and very learned Archimandrite of our monastery who was an expert on liturgics, said to a un-canonical priest who had had come up and smilingly shouted "Hi
Father,Christ is in our midst!" (think really LOUD!)


Father said, "The words "Christ is in our midsts is not a personal or friendly greeting,because it denotes sacramental unity in the serving of Divine Services by priests at the same altar,and thus its words are of great spiritual significance. These words are patricularly uttered during the Divine Liturgy at the time of the communion of clergy,when there be there several concelebrating. The presiding celebrant, as he gives his co-celebrant a part of the Lamb, gives him the three holy kisses on the shoulders, and says, "Christ is in our midst." At that point, the co-celebrant says solemnly, "He is and ever will bed," confirming that they are "in communion" with each other. If there are two or more deacons present, they go up to each other and exchange the greeting. If there is oee priest and one deacon serving, they exchange the greeting as the priest gives part of the Lamb to him.

At NO time during the Divine Services are these words uttered to non clergy, not to lesser clergy like sub-deacons,not to altar servers and at no time, to the laity."Instead they say, "The servant of God"----" receives.."

As I have pointed out on several threads, it usually us converts who come up with these innovations, because we wish to be a little more "democratic" in our Divine Services and Church community. In many parishes, it has become more common to shake the priests hand, making the layperson "equal" to the priest in a free and democratic society. The hande shake dates back to ancient Rome, and was not a sign of greeting, but of distrust, for each man at that time firmly clasped the wrist of the other, checking for secret weapons

And, as with my biggest gripe, changing centuries old terms for sacred art is just being faddish, and had not in a change made for a vdry good reason. The changes seem so small, but look around you how many people do you come across who have any manners, or even more, teach them to their children? I am often shocked by the manner in which youg people speak to their parents, or even strangers.

This all comes to bear, if Matthew will allow me or even permit this post to go through, to point out how it is important, even in little things, to be obedient to all that the Church teaches and does, never having the "need" or the personal "feeling" that somehow we need to participate more in sacradotal functions. If we wish to be counted among Christ's sheep, we cannot permit ourselves to believe or think as "we prefer,"and we cannot decide for ourselves what is more important in things as love as opposed to obedience, for in so doing we put ourselves in danger. We have to accept Christ and His Church those who have been put over us and not react with emotions or feeling, or what we would like it to be. So too with the greetings I have spoken about.

Recently, a very good person expressed the idea that since society has moved away from the notion of obedidnce to set rules, that many good things have come from it. For me, I could not see any real good in the utter collapse in world-wide law, morals, integrity and a sense of honesty and decency. If one looks at history, that when situation in a society became lawless and dishonest, so in time did order and civilization.

I know you all mean only the best, but sad to say, most hew converts are not told these things, or are in parishes where the American view of the Church prevails. Also, to be frank, seminaries are failing to pass these traditions along, so many priests do not know either, and I can tell you, the general state of Orthodoxy is decidedly down from it was thirty years ago. One last word, it might seem strange, but it is also not proper for a layperson to bless his priest. A long -time friend, Orrthodox all of herlife, joined a new parishj and as people go ujp, the priest says, "God bless you----" which is the thing to do. She called me the other day, and said, "Father, I think I am doing something wrong, for when I kiss the cross after Liturgy, sometimes I forget and say"God bless you Father," before he does to me, and he always give me this puzzled look." And I said,"That is because you should not bless him." When a priest meets a bishop, then he asks the bishops blessing-when a layhman sees apriest, then he asks his blessing.

However, laypeople can, under many circumstances, give a "layman"s blessing." This done by say,a Father or Mother: Forming their fingers as if they were going to make the sign of the Cross they then bless their children before they go to school, or a day trip-Mother can come into the room where her children are sleeping, and bless each one of her precious ones. A person who is going to bake, especially prosphora can bless the dough, a cook, his meat and vegetables, and Orthodox students can bless each other before a tough exam. Whenever a blessing is called for,and there is no priest present, then such blessings are not only appropriate, but very good indeed!


All blessings are from God: when you ask a blessing from a priest, it is not he who blesses, but as Christ's priestly servant, he invokes God's blessing on you. When you call a priest on the phone, ask a blessing, and his blessing invokes God's holy blessing on your words, so that they will be peaceful and spiritually productive.

We take so many sinful opportunities each day, cursing our work and others or our situation. How much better to ask God's blessing on our most menial task and even singing "O Heavenly King.." before starting work or a task with others,. If we constantly reminc ourselkves of the presence of God in our lives, we will be more apt to "watch ourselves," and in time will find that tasks go by quickly and in peace.

This was a chapeter in a Book! And if Matthew does not let it through, I will re-release it as a four -part mini-series (smile) Forgive me, but I wanted to give you sober lesson, and do not wihto offend anyone who has been taught differently.


I muist make clear one important point: I am chiefly referring to this forum, for I am not telling you to walk up to your priest and startle him by asking for his blessing if that is not the custom in your Church. And I am not crticicing anyone if they do. I just think that since this forum in part is to each each other., then i wanted to inform you of the older cusrtoms of the Church, especially should you encounter a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church, either from the Motherland or Abroad, which might be sooner than later...

[Melissa]

Dear father Averky,

Thank you for your post re: the traditions of the Church. It meant a lot to me that you were willing to state the issue so clearly.

Re: especially your reference to set rules vs obedience - I wonder if Chistian obedience is an obedience of personal accountability to God, via the traditions of the Church; whereas obedience to rules is or becomes accountability to the rules? I wonder about this because I believe personal accountabililty is on the wane in the U.S., and think that's one reason we try to legislate everything, and argue about it. So we get used to doing that, and when we come to the Church, we treat the issue of obedience the same way, as if it has been legislated and can be questioned and is subject to change.

That's not to present any excuses for myself or anyone else concerning obedience, but to help me understand more about the ways in which I'm tempted to struggle with it.

Melissa

[Melissa]

One more question please, Father Averky - I notice on Monachos and in letters, priests often sign "In Christ" with or without a little cross -and I also notice lay people doing the same. I think I've done it myself. Your points above (post 653) made me wonder if this practice is OK or not. Thank you - Melissa

[Dewi Poole]

Dear Friends,

I am new to Monachos and have been recieving mail for the last few weeks and I am overwhelmed by the quanity and interesting and informative correspondence. It has been a particular pleasure to read the contributions of Father Averky and more recently Father Raphael. I was particulary interested on finding more about the wrtings of Father Paisios and i would be grateful for any information regarding his writings/books. I was also touched by Thomas notes regarding friendships and can and can empathise with him but I'm sure that he already knows that by expressing his concerns that already he has made friends on Monachos. I will not probably be a frequent poster but I shall be following the discusions and from time to time making a small contribution.

yr Eiddoch yng Ngrist Iesu (Yours in Christ Jesus)
Dewi

[Fr John Wehling]

Dewi,

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

You can view a nice collection of sayings, etc. from Elder Paisios here (http://www.balamandmonastery.org.lb/fathers/indexpaisios.htm). I know there is a volume of his letters available in English and another book whose title I don't recall. His life and teachings are beautiful.

In Christ,
Fr John

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Melissa;

Go to the link Fr. John posted for Elder Paisios. On the homepage of the monastery, click on the link for "spirituality." Then click on the link for Gerontissa Gabriella. She has touched my heart.

She says, "Not a knowledge that you learn, but a knowledge that you suffer. That is Orthodox spirituality."

I think this speaks to obedience and rules. There is a deep message in such a simple sentence.

Love, Trudy

[Melissa]

Trudy - I was at the page, read enough to know I wanted to bookmark it, and returned to my email. There was your post to me. I dodn't believe in coincidences. In my haste, which I often fail to keep under control, I had not noticed the other links on the Elder Paisios page, so I returned on your direction. I can readily see why Gerontissa Gabriella has touched you; much resonated with me, too.

"Not a knowledge that you learn, but a knowledge that you suffer. That is Orthodox spirituality."
Yes.
Thank you.
Melissa

ps - can you or someone else help me so I know how to pronounce Paisios? I never was good at languages, but I'm guessing at paheeseeos...

[Daniel Jeandet]

My technique is to pronounce difficult names differently every time I say them. That way I sound stupid part of the time on each word, instead of totaly stupid all the time with some words and really cultured and clever all the time with the other words that I accidently got right.

I say - pay-ee-see-os

or

pie-ee-see-os

I have the book of his epistles and I have read it about five times. When I first got it I was so happy because I read the life of the elder and his teachings and it was a real turning point for me when I was very deppressed. Also Mother Gavrilia helped me very much. They are my heroes. Mother Gavrilia says -

Love is only on the cross

[Melissa]

Daniel J., I just love your posts. You have a delightful way of combining humor with a message .. like pointing me towards Mother Gavrilla. Thank you.
Melissa

[Dewi Poole]

Dear father John,

Many thanks for your assistance - I have also found a large number of references in other members correspondence - thanks to them also.
Thank you all.

Dewi

[Dewi Poole]

Dear Father John,

Many thanks for your assistance - I have also found a large number of references in other members correspondence - thanks to them also.
Thank you all.

Dewi

[Arsenios]

Melissa writes: "Can you or someone else help me so I know how to pronounce Paisios?'

Three syllables:

Pie, as in apple...
see, as in vision
ose, as in verbose

Accent is on vision...

Pie-see'-ose

Unless, of course, you prefer the Greek pronounciation - In which case, find a Greek, and ask her, and listen carefully... That pie, for instance, might come out more as pah-yee, and might be two syllables, rather than one...

I often get the ac-cent' on the wrong syl-la'-ble... But I have heard his name pronounced

Pah-yee'-see-ose...

And this is much more lyrical and gracious to my Americaneezer ears...

And even the Pah-yee can be stretched to

Pah-high-yee...

But the Pah-high is pronounced as one syllable... so that it just stetches a little the Pie of Pie-yee' see-ose... But only just a little..

'nuff!

Arsenios

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

just something small, maybe i got this confused with another thread, any how it will be nice to share, someone told "bappou" Sophronis St Siluan's spiritual child, i have just become orthodox, and Fr Sophronis looked at him and said how can you just have become orthodox if i have been trying to do that for the past 70 years and have not reached that yet. this is not exact and probably not literal but it draws from my memory of someone saying so and it was sparked when i read certain things, also at a talk about miricals, someone was giving a talk when Fr Sophronis was there and a lady asked i pray to God to show me miricals, and Fr Sophroni listening with his head down looked up and said i pray to God to stop showing me miricals every day, again i do not quote directly, its just nice to hear this from a holy monk whom God sent to us and allowed many to be inspired on to Salvation through him,

with Love in Christ
Charalambos

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

May i just add, when someone asked me if i wanted to go to their church, a friend of mine, i said to him i will think about it and do not want to make promises, part of me thinks if i do not make sacrifice i cannot expect them to - my thought process at the time, this is dangerous, like a child swimming with the sharks, maybe, then cannot remember specifically when but realised, no disrespect to anyone not orthodox- why would i want to go anywhere else, it is hard to express but it was like there is no other church or life i would want to struggle in. And other times looking back to meetings and talks with priests helps me to realise this, I have family who are and are not orthodox and sometimes i might meet them and go to youth events but try not to get involved with the other stuff that would go on spiritually, in general if one sais the Our Father prayer and other orthodox prayers, is it bad to do it with those not orthodox because i think there may be such a thing but i am not too sure, it has not been for a while, also i went to 1 meeting at uni for Christian Union and explained to some people how i am orthodox, i felt from 1 person that he said the sort of things that about tradition and this and other stuff, how can one explain that the "Tradition" is not the "Tradition" that they think. I feel many people including myself at times do not fully understand the tradition of the church for it is so Great, but the other things reffered to as tradition- are the traditions that we all do not want to be involved with. sorry for my rambling

Pray for me, i can not concentrate on my studies and get distracted in good and bad ways, good being checking posts on this web site!!

anyway
In Christ
Charalambos

[Fr Averky]

Dear All,

I want to publicly thank Charalambos for sending to me from the UK a wonderful spiritual gift-the book about the truly clairvoyant servant of God, Father Porphyrios. I read the book with awe and trembling, and maybe one day I will tell you about the meeting my own archbishop had with him in 1987. Now, the Metropolitan, ( head of the Church) he told me the story with awe, emotion and deep reverence for the Holy Elder.

May God richly bless you, Charalambos

Fr. A.

[alex Kinnet]

L.S.

I'm not intruding too much when I do express my sometimes bewilderment reading comment and questions which do give me the feeling that we are still in the midst of the Great Church times and still think, act and particularly must act accordingly the then prevailing concepts and institutions. The negative approach in theological discours though seems to have been forgotten by most of the participants.
A living Tradition, thus changing Tradition, seems mostly not the critical issue and the Orthodox reply to the world to day, in a meaningful way, making Jezus Message lifegiving again lesser important than following old forms, rites, concepts in other words the package seems to be more important than the real core of Jezus Message and Gospel. One seems to have more belief than faith in the promessed H.Spirit.

Yours
in Christ

alex

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Alex,

Why does it bewilder you that we are still faithful to Christ's Holy Church which is 'yesterday, today & always'? It is not negative to recognise that Christ & His Church represent eternally His never-changing Truth. The only negative we refer to in theological discourse is sin and its fruit which is death.

Only what is from and within the Church & from Christ is living, for Christ is True Life; that is why Tradition which is the life of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit is always alive. On the other hand what is in of the world and seperate from Christ lacks this, it is always at risk of falling into death; it is literally the world which has invented the museum for each of its fads & philosophies today is finished tomorrow.

What message do we want besides that of Christ?; the Holy Spirit reveals this Christ and makes us fully Orthodox Christians within the Church. Read the life of St Anthony the Great or the Conversation of St Seraphim of Sarov with Motovilov. The Holy Spirit is not the spirit of this world.

In Christ- Fr R

[Melissa]

Dear Alex,

Welcome - I like seeing new people join the forum, and look forward to 'hearing' more about you. From your post #1 -


"...living Tradition, thus changing Tradition, seems mostly not the critical issue and the Orthodox reply to the world to day, in a meaningful way, making Jezus Message lifegiving again lesser important than following old forms, rites, concepts in other words the package seems to be more important than the real core of Jezus Message and Gospel. One seems to have more belief than faith in the promessed H.Spirit."

I've been thinking about this -- From outside the Church (even if one is Orthodox, one can be viewing Orthodoxy 'from the outside') the focus on the original obedience, tradition, forms, rites, and concepts may seem outdated or not relevant to today's world and issues. I was once in the position of thinking that myself. However, once one submits to the power of the Gospel, and accepts with humility that the Early Church - people who knew Christ or were in the generations soon after His life and sacrifice - guided in history by the Holy Spirit, would know best what He decreed and how to interpret His message, formed those same 'forms, rites, and concepts," etc, it becomes easier to accept them with an open heart, accepting both the mystery and the majesty, and the relevance of them to our lives.

For context, this is being said by a woman who tired of churches that were always changing to 'respond' to the current trends/ideas/issues of the world; re-inventing the wheel was no longer for me. As I delved into the Gospels, especially, and into the writings of St. Ephraim the Syrian, I had to see that facing my own demons was going to be a life's work, requiring more dedication and strength than I possessed. How grateful I am for the many saints and ordinary people who have lived and died for the preservation of Orthodoxy, because there I find my only earthly help; and there I discovered to my chagrin, that the Gospel is all too relevant, that I'd better get on the job if I wanted to work out my salvation (definitely in fear and trembling...am I paraphrasing St. Paul?).

That the Holy Spirit is working still in the world seems evident in history, if we look with the eyes of faith. So many people have lost the ability to see with faithful eyes, though, wanting more to see justifications for their worldliness. I am still somewhat in that camp, much as I would like to say I'm not. Now, though, I know where to go for discernment.

What is life-giving about Jesus' message is, after all, our accpetance of it, not any effort to make it "more relevant".

And I have a question - what do you mean by "The negative approach in theological discours though seems to have been forgotten by most of the participants" ? Do you mean playing up the 'other side' to promote discussion (the old 'playing the devil's advocate' -a frightening phrase)? If we do that, especially here where we're not face to face, how would we ever know what we each are talking about, or stand for? (At least, if we do it without stating that's what we're doing) -

Sorry, I'm getting off track.
Melissa

[Photini]

When you mentioned the word Tradition...it made me call to mind an article that I stumbled across just recently....

"Holy Tradition? It is the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man Himself, with all the riches of His divine Hypostasis and, through Him and for His sake, those of the Holy Trinity. That is most fully given and articulated in the Holy Eucharist, wherein, for our sake and for our salvation, the Savior's entire theanthropic economy of salvation is performed and repeated. Therein wholly resides the God-man with all His wondrous and miraculous gifts. Through all this, the Savior's philanthropic proclamation ceaselessly resounds: "And, Lo, I am with you always even unto the end of the world" (Mt. 28:20): He is with the apostles and, through the apostles, with all the faithful, world without end. This is the whole of the holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church of the apostles: Life in Christ = Life in the Holy Trinity, growth in Christ = growth in the Holy Trinity.

Of extraordinary importance is the following: in Christ's Orthodox Church, the Holy Tradition, ever living and life-giving, comprises: the holy Liturgy, all the divine services, all the Holy Mysteries, all the holy virtues, the totality of eternal truth and eternal righteousness, all love, all eternal life, the whole of the God-man, the Lord Christ, the entire Holy Trinity, and the entire theanthropic life of the Church in its theanthropic fullness, with the All-holy Theotokos and all the saints.

The personality of the Lord Christ the God-man, transfigured within the Church, immersed in the prayerful, liturgical, and boundless sea of grace, wholly contained in the Eucharist, and wholly in the Church--this is Holy Tradition. This authentic good news is confessed by the holy fathers and the holy ecumenical councils. By prayer and piety, Holy Tradition is preserved from all human demonism and devilish humanism, and in it is preserved the entire Lord Christ, He Who is the eternal Tradition of the Church."

~~by St. Justin (Popovich), Attributes of the Church

[alex Kinnet]

L.S. Sorry that I have upsetted a few people.

I didn't know what "type" of Orthodox people were participating though I already got the point that the traditionalist / conservative thinking seem to be very popular.

I myself, Orthodox in Belgium, ( Constantinople) do wrestle my lifetime and humbly try( at least I try hard) to live my life in an Orthodox way and simultaniously trying to share this faith.

A lifetime long study in christian liturgies ( comparative), theology and particularly exegesis do not make me more competent but, perhaps, hélas, put me before many challenges.
One liners discussions like we have now isn't a proper way as one has to make things sound to simple. What other way do we have but to listen carefull to the others, respecting diversity and keeping unity in the practice of our Orthodox Faith. So this isn't a discussion to get a point, it is more an invitation to ponder upon the problem and listen, as individuals and as church first of all to the real questions and problems of this world to day. i hope i can attribute to that be it that the main participants are U.S. citizens.

just to make a point clear: the negative approach i was referring is the well known apophatic approach as practised by the early patrisitic fathers. Being hellenistic in thinking and translating the original and mainly out of the Jewish faith developed christian faith/communities into Hellenistic concepts they corrected always by stating that in the end we have to speak in "negative terms" to correct a too positive formulated concept about the methaphysical elements.

To Photini: The language you use I understand perfectly ( otherwise my lifetime studywork would have been in vain) but even to me this language is far from my daily life. People to day look at you in wonder when you use this language, even in very traditional countries like Greece. This is my concern as the Lords Message must be transmitted and find hearers. We as the body of Christ, we all have this job to do and do it effectively and efficiently.
Travelling heavely around the Orthodox world and seeing the present day loosening grip of the christian communities i think we must find the way to create a platform to think about the challenges of to day and to find , from our traditional Sources, a proper reply and invitation for the people of to day.

i hope to be able to get a bit deeper into this problem later on.

All the best
In Christ.

Alex

[Melissa]

Dear Alex,

You're way ahead of me...I'm interested in learning, though. I read your paper, and will have to think a bit about it. In my ingorance it felt confusing to me, as if you were saying one thing which I didn't expect, and then another that seemed familiar and expected.

Could you give a little background as to how you came to write that paper, and who the audience was? That would help me as I think about it, I believe. Thanks.

Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Alex,

What you term Traditional/conservative thinking is actually Orthodox thoinking.

I could not access your paper, but suffice it to say that when you state that it seems like "we are still in the midst of the Great Church times, and still think and particularly must act according to the then prevailing institutions." it can be seen that your view is indeed not the same of those of us who wish to uphold the verity of Orthodoxy and not to succumb to the deadly spirit of the times.

While Orthodoxy is not exclusive, it is inclusive, made up of those who beliieve Her to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. We have had similar threads on this subject, and your words only say to me that more and more Orthodox Christians are being tempted by the heresy of Ecumenism. I have never been able to understand why great bishops and leaders of the world Orthodoxy are so anxious to join in prayer with the Latins and heterodox, while at the same time they do litlle to seek unity of all Orthodox Churches by returning to the Church that existed before the 20's of the last century. Changing the Church calender was to be in conformity with the Western churches, and served to divide the Churches, while not destroying its "oneness," it has created a big difference, certainly not in the Fath but the view of the Church's mission between "calendarists." But thank God, all the local Churches the greatest majority of clergy and faithful are of one heart and mind.

Of course it is good and a blessed thing to witness our pure Orthodoxy to the heterodox, with the sincere hope that they will see the errors in their beliefs, and and embace the True Faith, but it seems to be going the opposite direction, especially with the Latins who have won important concession from the Orthodox while not giving an inch on their side. The Great Church does exist, although at times some of the Patriarchs could be a little stronger in their witness for our beloved Church, yet it is still important to world Orthodoxy and must be preserved in the Phanar.

I would say that the spiritual impact of the involvement of Orthodox with heterodox has been basically nil. With the fall of Communism, the Orthodox Church of Russia is again coming into Her own, with Her rich Church life now visible to the whole world.
She was forced to join the WCC by the Soviet government, only in the 1960's and while many high level hierarchs are still committed to Ecumenism, the vast majority of Russian bishops and faithful are dead set against it.

As to other concepts and institutions, the true teaching and dogma of the Orthodoxy is unchanging; our views on what constitutes the Church, How the Holy Scriptures are interpreted, the authority of the Church, how the Church is ruled, how one is a member of it, its Dogmas and Theological teachings, the writings of the Fathers, the understanding of the Mysteries, monasticism, and the life and practises of any good Orthodox Christians is of course ancient, and even predates the Great Church in time and Tradition. In order to be Orthodxy, we must believe and defend these Traditions, beliefs and practises.

Altering or modernizing any of this rich treasury can only lead to disaster. Consider the Roman Catholic Church. Ålthough they glibly state that their "reforms" have been only to the benefit of their Church, the results of Vatiican II have been devasting. Feeling that the "ancient concepts and institution: no lobnger were in step with the "times," a large number of liberal cardinals, taking advantage of a weak and unsure Pope, promulgated, mostlyafrter the Council was over, changes which completely overturned the Tradition, teaching, practise and liturgical practice to the point that the "new improved" Catholic Church is almost unrecognizable to those of us who grew up Catholic before Vatican. And the result, in Western Europe the churches are near empty-just yesterday the Pope of Rome, mentioned his grief at the lack of priests in France. The US, shaken by scandals, will soon will have fewer priests, and presently that number is one priest for nearly 7,000 people. I have a Dominican priest friend of more than 30 years who was only recently transferred out from a parish in Las Angeles where two priests serve 4,000 families, approximately 17,000 souls! When I asked him how many he knew, he said about 100.

Alex, Orthodox lives bdcause of the preservation of her concepts , as St.Cyril of Alexandria says, "We do not worship the times, we worship God." I came fo Holy Orthodoxy because of the fact that She has not made foolish and unecessary changes in order to become "relevant" to the age, as we Catholics were told.

The place of Christ's Church is to raise man above this world and it confusion and its evils; not to come down to the level of the fallen and evil world, wallowing in the same prideful New Age of these last times.


The Holy Fathers tell us that those who do not adhere to the tachings of Christ and His Holy Church, are ENEMIES OF CHRIST, and sin against the Holy Spirit. And if we think we are doing a good an blessed thing by compromjising our True Faith to acomodate the heterodox, we will surely aner for it on the Day of Judgement., for God will not know us, and will spit us out of his mouth.
Alex, if you sincerely wish to rake that risk, that is your busines, as for me, a Traditional, Conservative Orthodox Christian to remain with the Christ that I know, not the christ to whom prideful men who have created their own "churches" believe.. Forgive me, and may God bless you, and in the end, may find salvation. I will be praying for you. These are my last words on this thread.

In our true God,

Fr. A.

[alex Kinnet]

Dear Melissa.

i'm 64 years old and the steady exposure to all different Orthodox concepts and the reality of the Orthodox lived faith and religion, in traditional as well as mixed countries-(I refer to the Orthodox faith of course), have forced me to think about a few essential issues that seem to be extremely critical to me. My lifetime study of f.e. the historical development in theology, liturgy( christian in general) brought some other fuel to the awareness that we, also to day, have to be critical and that we too have to deal mainly with the core business and not with the historical packing, wrapping; Too many, mainly culturally orthodox motivated, do take a specific presentation of Orthodxy as the only True and valid. Either they prefer a past historical situation or consider what they were told as the final development willed by God himself.

It is amazing to learn from the past how drastically changed views and expressions were part of the christian faith. In fact f.e; the byzantine liturgy was the one that has ondergone the most drastic changes( next to the Latin one and this because of the tabula raza in the 60 ties.) The patristic fathers were cursed as modernists by the more conservative part of the church and by their dogmatic opponents. In fact one can not deny that they translated the mainly Jewish based faith of early christianity into pure Hellenistic concepts which were speaking in quite different concepts and images ( métaphores) And rightfully did they do so. A more close exposure to the Scriptures and my exegeses studies ( at a catholic academical level) have brought me to understand that one of the reason in O. churches the Scriptures are not very popular is that Christ condems strict adherence to the law(rules) and that the fruits we bear in life are much more important than the struggle for orthodox ( general meaning) concepts and organisations. We tend not to scrutenize our live and behaviour on the Scriptures because this does ask a too strong involvement in the real practice of the Good Tiding.

I must confess that many times in classical orthodox countries i have to wonder why the old heathren religion and practices do seem to be more obvious than the Words and Deeds of our Lord. In fact as christians we must, also to day, confess that our witnness even in words, are many times not corroborating our teaching; on the contrary. That is why we need metanoia, a complete change, a taking serious of the Gospel and the words of Jesus that we will be judged upon the fruits we bear and not on our dogmatic stances.

I must confess that generally speaking one enters Orthodoxy because of the splendour of the liturgy and that the next important service of the "Brother" ( St. Chrysostomos) is very often forgotten or neglected. A nice service a week seems to be much easier than a laberous denying of oneself all the week through. Particularly in the greek and russian hiërarchy there is a very strong oposition against all modernism and a strong attitude to keep thing as they were. A Rumenian church on the contrary is a very bright light in Orthodoxy be it also rather conservative.

I have no particular platform , also because there is a more defensive attitude of the official church leaders for considerations like mine's. As is generally the rule in the O.C; " that what concerns everybody must be discussed by everybody ", this old post apostolic, early patristic concept that was common practice at that time has lost all practical application.( with exception to U.S. were at least with a sobornost concept one remains on speaking terms which each other) All my papers are written basically to force myself to bring some logic in my exposure and conclusion. the papers are sometimes used as discussionpapers by students though on a limited scale as i didn't push for it. To be frank I think that those issues need to be first of all to be discussed on academical level before bringing a pastoral concpet to the " faithful".

All yours In Christ.

Alex

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Alex,

I have just read your latest post which is quite interesting and thought provoking. You seem to feel that in Orthodoxy there is too much of the 'past', of perhaps 'false' tradion, and that our own Orthodox history should be a warning to us. You yourself my dear brother in Christ speak of 'essential issues'; so from the perspective of the Church what is the essential issue? It is sin & sinful attatchments, the things of men rather than God. Since man is fallen and even Christ's incarnation does not yet completely annul this, so this struggle in fact has been in the Church from the beginning, is there now and more than likely will be there in the future also. So is not the 'essential issue' our own struggle against sin to see what and to see this in a balanced way; eg this past Sunday of the Publican & Pharisee is an excellent way to proceed.

In this light it is perhaps useful to re-read your statement that, "it is amazing to learn from the past how drastically changed views and expressions were part of the christian faith." Again , forgive me; it is wonderful to see the variety of expression between the different parts of the Orthodox Church, yesterday & today; but in no way did this alter the 'view' of the faith. As said in my last post to you, 'Christ is the same yesterday, today & tomorrow' and thus also is His Church at its core. To say that the 'patristic fathers were cursed as modernists...' does not mean that the Holy Frs themselves held to a relative view of the Church; if the accusation is wrong why should we then follow it? By the end of this paragraph you seem to be saying that the Holy Frs DID change the Faith (Hellenism) and that the reason Scripture is not read in the Church is due to an over adherence to 'the law'. Again I do not follow; if the Frs essentially changed the church why should we now worry that it is too bound up with 'adherence to the law'? Just go ahead with the same spirit which is already present for almost 2000 years and keep changing the Faith itself!?

But I am being silly; none of the Holy Frs changed the Faith despite adopting certain cultural turns of phrase; as now, culture is to be illumined thru the constant Light of the Church; not the Church become worldly. Also in this sense I do not agree with your comment that "the old heathen religion & practises do seem to be more obvious than the Words & Deeds of our Lord." In my two visit to Greece & Mt Athos I saw much of great faith and much that was vibrant. Of course the temptation of secularism & worliness is present and of concern. But I would say that struggling aginst those temptations thru that very 'ancient ' faith, is what provides for the vibrancy itself. But again,it almost seems as if you were saying that because of sin the Faith should be changed. No- the Church as the ultimate & sober realist knows that sin & death can only be defeated thru faithfulness. Otherwise what happens is that unknown to our selves we use worldly methods to judge worldly things. Spiritually this leads us into a passge with no door.

What can we say my brother; hierarchs (and I have lived beside and with two) have their own unique personalities & tendencies; really it is difficult to put them all into a category or two. What I will say is that their motivations are not usually some desire to preserve a lifeless past. Right or wrong in their interpretations their efforts are usually one that springs from a desire to be faithful to Christ and His Holy Church. And that goes for most priests, monks & faithful I have met also.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Melissa]

Dear Alex,

I read your post #2 with interest and some dismay. Your experience of Orthodoxy is so different from mine. I've done some religious studying myself and some experiencing and trying to live as an Orthodox woman (a convert who did not come because of the beautiful liturgies), and feel like I'm in a different world from yours. I say this not to be critical of you or argumentative, but in puzzlement. I know well the temptation to treat Christianity with logic, and know that belies the whole thing. The scandal of Christianity is precisely that it's not logical, except through the eyes, ears and heart of faith - faith in Christ, as fully divine and fully human, with no confusion. Faith in the Trinity. The hope that I can ever live eternally with Him is only possilbe through Him.

And I must confess that I don't see the protectors of Orthodoxy as defensive - but as appropriately guarded and protective. I want them to stand firm for the faith which they - and I - treasure.

Have you had a chance to read any of the Monachos discussions about obedience, and love, and humility? I've found them illuminating, and perhaps they touch on areas that you have thought lifeless, yet might experience as alive and vital to those of us who participated in them. I believe you would find this community full of life and vibrancy, whatever our viewpoints on particular points.

These are just some thoughts from Melissa, a not too obedient, not too humble, trying to be faithful Orthodox woman...

[Marty Zyph]

James Likoudis a former Orthodox, author of Ending the Byzantine Greek Schism.
Now converted to Roman Catholicism. A link to a real player audio file:

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=jh_73.ra

Perhaps I am in the wrong to post this here, forgive me if so. It is not an attempt to cause trouble. In listening to this man, I feel a bit torn. Is he misinformed regarding the issues surrounding the schism between east and west and the view as he has garnered it from study of Church history concerning the chair of Peter?

[Daniel Jeandet]

To avoid torn feelings, just dont listen to the man.

[Melissa]

Marty-

I'm interested in following your link, but couldn't get realplayer to work this morning so haven't done so yet. I know you will always find "naysayers" re: Orthodoxy, just as with anything. Others will be able to answer you specifically in ways I can't.

I wonder if you would consider posting all your questions on one thread, so the people who have in kindness offered their support, can know where your thoughts are leading? Otherwise I'm afraid you may end up more confused than not as you try to understand how to put the various responses together, and people won't really know the context of your questions, to help them respond.

In Christ,
Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Marty,

I listened to the first 10 minutes or so of this talk. It is filled with fundamental misinterpretations & misunderstandings both about Church history & theology. To take only one example from St Gregory the Great Pope of Rome whom he mentions as a souce for the idea that Papal Supremacy is an ancient concept within the Church.

This is what Pope Gregory writes to Eulogius Patriarch of Alexandria:


"For I said that neither to me nor to anyone else must you write in such terms; and see, in the preface to your letter to me, who have forbidden this, you have thought fit to include the title of pride, calling me 'universal pope.' Please, I implore your holiness not to do this again; for what is bestowed on one beyond what is reasonable, is taken from yourself...I am rightly honoured when each is not denied the honour due to him. For if you call me 'universal pope', you deny that you are what you call me [a bishop] universally."

It is best not to listen to these things at this stage Marty. At a later stage as we have sunk our roots into the Faith the time will come when we are able to objectively discern what is positive & negative that comes from outside of the Faith. Faith illuminates discernment.

In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael

[Douglas Barber]

In his post #2 above Alex Kinnet wrote that "generally speaking one enters Orthodoxy because of the splendour of the liturgy and that the next important service of the "Brother" ( St. Chrysostomos) is very often forgotten or neglected." I would like to suggest a different way of seeing this relation between what, at least to an outsider like myself, appears distinctive in Orthodox liturgy, and service to others.

It seems to me that the more powerfully we experience reverence and awe in our encounter with God in prayer - and surely the Divine Liturgy is the pinnacle of prayer - the more we are moved to regard our God-prescribed duty to respect our neighbor's good with that same reverence and awe. I don't see this happening in the same way when prayer and liturgy are stripped down to what people think of as "functional" - limited to petitions, intercessions, and so on, as seems to have happened in many non-Orthodox settings.

Respectfully - Doug

[Irene]

Marty, in case you are interested in some reading material see: http://www.holytrinitymission.org/section.php?04_e#1

In Christ
irene