Music

[Daniel Jeandet]

At what point does music fall short of its purpose?

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Surely, Daniel J, this occurs when a musical composition fails to touch the hearer viscerally (to quote Beethoven). I agree with the comment made previously about Arvo Part, and having sung some of his works (eg Antiphons), find they speak volumes to the desolated modern heart. Ditto the music of Gorecki, eg Totus Tuus. About some other modern composers I have my doubts. It's been perhaps unkindly said, for instance, of Sir John Tavener that he now writes by the yard because that ensures he is paid more. The music profession, as I well know, can be very bitchy about its own.

seeker

[Alex Haig]

From a personal point of view I think that music falls short when the ego of the composer takes over from the actual words. The singing is a medium for the people to hear and learn about the teachings of the Church. For example in Vespers on a feast there is much to do with the Church's understanding of the feast in the verses of the Lord I have Cried and the Apostica - if the melody takes over so that this important teaching cannot be heard and understood by the people, then it is falling short of its purpose.

With love in Christ

Alex

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear MA Jackson-Roberts,

Thank you for those comments about those in the music profession. It helps me navigate in a world I love but am extremely ignorant about. Sometimes when the waves of this life rise high and one wants to be amidst something peaceful, but more than that sane & beautiful- at times I put on a CD of Vaugh-Williams or whoever. It does seem to have its place in our over-all life as Christians seeking to be human.

In Christ- Fr R

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Correction: that should have been Vaughn-Williams (not Vaugh-Williams); I heard that he was very particular how people pronounced his name. So better be careful!
Fr R

[Herman Blaydoe]

When the Liturgy becomes a concert instead of the "work of the people" it is NOT accomplishing what is intended.

If we worship the music we "miss the mark" because the whole purpose of the music is to point to God.

[Fr Averky]

Hello Everyone,

Now that the discussion have taken a more sane turn, I would like to add a few ( thousand) words to this thread. By the way, my operation is not until the 30th of the month, and I am so happy because by the day my sight is less. I am using the text zoom, at 200% in order to see and read what is on the screen.

Our present monastery choir director is from San Francisco where his brother is the choir director for the cathedral. There used to be a wonderful choir master form Russia, and his choir sang with dignity, majesty, and with a deedply moving manner which caused the sacred hymns to deeply touch the hearts of those standing in church. The present conductor rushes everything, and the choir basically screams its way through the services, and it is really quite awful.

When our present conductor arrived at the monastery, he did the same thing, and the services were an agony. Two years ago, a wonderful Basso Profundo came every three or four months from NYC and began working with the choir.

His very first statement was: "The choir represents the angels, and as such, from the very first "Lord have mercy," to the very last "amen," their voices should incline the hearts of those present in the church to heart-felt prayer. The choir should never distract or demand attention, but set the spiritual "mood" of the divine services, putting worshippers at peace, moving them to attentive quietude and desirous of experiencing "heaven on earth."

Happily, our choir director and the members of the choir took to heart his words and worked very hard to learn and employ the professional techniques he had to offer; now, such as during the first week of Great Lent, people even commented on how beautifully the choir had sung such hymns as "My soul, my soul, why are you sleeping?" during the Great Canon. This Christmas, at one point in the Vigil the two choirs came down from the kliros and sang a hymn so sweetly, so calmly and yet with such deep feeling , that every person was visibly moved. As someone mentionjed on this thread, it is during the Vigil that the theology of the Feast is to be heard- by the beautiful verses we are told about the Archangel Gabriel coming tro Bethlehem to announce to the Virgin the good news, and his awe when he sees her Spiritual beauty .- every Feast has its story unfold in the verses- one priest I know once made bold to say, "Salvation can be found in the Srtichera."

Secular music is also a deep expression on the part of the composer, and when well performed, it too can have an effect on the soul. I particularly love the 1st piano concerto of Chopin, the second movement of which is to me sublime. Earlier church music like the compositions of Tomas Luis de Victoria, such as his "O magnum mysterium, are to me much more beautiful than the "busy" works of Palestrina. The human voice is in itself a glorious instrument, capable in its own right of expresing the deepest feelings and the highest aspirations of the human soul.

As regardcs to the human voice along with instruments, I have a 1967 recording of Vivaldi's magnificant "Gloria" sung by Kings College Cambridge and renowned soloists of the time, with, I believe, the London Symphony Orchestra and the chapel organist. The single phrase, "et in terra pax homibus bonae voluntatis" ( on earth, peace to men of good will) is such a thrilling and breath taking blending of orchestra, organ, choir and soloists, that when I heard this recording for the firt time, I sat in absolute awe of the true genius of Vivaldi. I then sat and listrened to just that section five or six tikmes more, and I was worn out when I finally decided to move on! God in His gracious mercy has not only allowed, but has inspired men to produce music which is so much of the soul. Another touchingly beautiful piece of music is Mozart's little known piano concert #23; the second movement is mournfully beautiful, and the interplay of instruments is again nearly heavenly. J.S. Bach's concerto for oboe and violin is an unusual pairing of instruments,, but is is sheer pleasure to the ears! Again, Mozart's piano concerto for three pianos completely bowled me over the first time I heard it. It started to play on my car radio as I ws on my way to the green grocer's, and I was so mesmerized by it that I sat in the car in front of the green grocer's and sat enraptured to the very end.When it was over, I happened to look up, and about six people were standing and looking out the window at me! When I went in the owner said, "Father, are you al lright? We thought yuou had had a stroke or a heqrt attack! Knowing that they would never understand, I said, "Oh, there was an interesting news program, and I wanted to hear all of it." And lastly, Mozart's vilin concdrto is so lovely that when his father heqrd the second movement for the firrt time, he broke into tears because of its sheer beauty. Such music takes our souls beyond this vale of tears and permits us to spend time in a much more beautiful place than the fallen one in which we toil

Of course, music of every kind has its place-for instance, I cannot abide guitars and folk music during religious services or jazz bands or generally noisy and raucous music with the great exception of a Black Baptist congregation who is "having Church," for that is a religious phenomenon all of its own.

From early childhood I have lived surrounded by music, and besides classical music, I love the music of many nagions-that of Greece, Turkey, the Balkans, Mexico and Brazil, East and South Africa and Western Europen folk melodies. I especiall love Klezmer music, which is filled with delightful melodies and the joy expressed by a people rejected and scorned for centuries, but who have managed to preserve their rich and wonderful culture in spite of everything. Music is very much a part of man's existence, for peoplke will make an instrument out of a stick, a hollow log- a shell, a horn, shells strung in a line-anything can be used as an instrument of sorts, and music has always been an important partt of religious services, solemn services, occasions for joy and grief, and man has used made music since his most primitive beginnings.

As refards theOrthodox Chiurch, I peersonally have no recall of having felt that the music was being worshipped; I will say that in the mid-19th century, Russia developed some perfectly awful operatic show pieces which were sung especially in large cathedrals where there were many priests and deacons. During the communion of the clergy, a piece actually called "The Concert" would be sung. Right around the time before the onslaught of the revolution, Russia was experiencing a re-birth in more byzantine music and iconography, doing away with the "classical " style of Western icons and such operatic monsters, all was swept away for
many years.

Well, I certainly have made up for not posting for awhile. I would like to mention that some of the more recent threads were spiritually very disturbing for me. I do not know many of the new people posting, but I found a few of their ideas and comments little disturbing, perhaps having read them out of context, I don't know. I was married, so I can talk about married life-but non-monastics cannot speak about or for monasticism. It is Great Lent, and all kinds of temptqtions abound, so we ought to be careful of what we say. Perhaps it was just the way some ideas were expressed. Forgive me a sinner..

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Father Averky

[Marie-Duquette]

It seems to me that music: "Falls short of its purpose" when the intention of the player is at fault, as well as that of the hearer. Purity of intention makes for purity of the "sound" of music!

I have heard some very terrible "church music" sounded very angry and loud! which made me "shudder" at a deep listening, spiritual level. It just got on my nerves! At other times I have heard renditions that are or seems to be from "Heaven"! soothing my soul and bringing me closer to the Presence of God-Trinity in Praise and Thanksgiving!

"Music is in the ear of the listener" I believe just as "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
In Christ Jesus, Marie Duquette

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Father Raphael,

If I can musically tempt you for a moment to step outside the Orthodox tent I would like to recommend anything, especially at this season anything Lenten, by Tomas Luis da Victoria to set the tired heart and battered soul on a better path for an hour or so. Indeed, any of the Renaissance era Western composers (eg Byrd, Tallis, Lassus, Palestrina, either of the Lobos, Guerrero) will free one for a time from the fetters of everyday trials and tribulations, I find. And then there is always J S Bach. But then, I do seem to spend a lot of my time singing this kind of stuff.

seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

And a short ps to my #110, if I may. That post relates to relatively easy listening. Now for really timeless, contemplative, quality listening, may I recommend the rhythmically complex but tonally superb English polyphonic music from the preceding century, ie Eton Choir book, Lambeth, or Old Hall examples dating from the fifteenth/early sixteenth centuries of our era, just before the so-called Reformation. That represents a glorious musical heaven on earth for me, either as singer or listener.

seeker, for whom music is the very quintessence of life itself.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear M-A Jackson-Roberts,

Thank you for your posts about the beauty of music. You suggest the "tonally superb English polyphonic music from the preceding century...". Could you provide some names of composers? I have only stumbled on William Byrd so far who is very wonderful to listen to.

Also to Fr Averky- thank you for your post also concerning the beauty of music. I recently read an account of Metropolitan Anastasy & Vladydo Sava attending a concert of Handel which was quite moving.

In Christ- Fr R

[Daniel Jeandet]

Thankyou very much everyone who replied to my question.

I like to compose music on my computer with programs that sequence samples of real instruments and software generated synthesyzers. Sometimes I spend hours at a time doing this, just to get a couple of minutes of music. Ive been doing it for about 5 or 6 years, its one of my favorite things and while I am unemployed I have started doing it more again so Im not doing nothing so much of the time. I dont really listen to music except for a one CD by John Tavener - "the protecting veil", and some arvo part mp3s on my computer. Sometimes I still listen to a song or two by a heavy metal band called Cynic, I used to be very much into heavy metal, very extreme forms of it, but this one album that Cynic made really was musical genius and I cant imagine never hearing it again.

I asked the question because in my opinion, the music I make is not really good. I mean, its good in one sense, it doesnt break the rules of music or whatever, Im quite good at layering the sounds and combining the instruments sometimes people have been very positive about it when I played it to them (although they have rarely asked me for more). Its just that when I listen to really good music, music that is clearly fullfilling its purpose, I feel like a child playing with lego compared to great architects who are designing Holy temples to God. I feel that my music, if it moved anyone at all, would be unlikely to move them in the best direction.

Sometimes I wonder if there is any point in making music with drums in it. Im thinking at the moment that drums lowers the music a lot, down to the earthly. I would like to make heavenly music. I wouldnt want to give people anything that would not be for Gods Glory. I feel I am too shallow to be an artist.

Thankyou again my friends. Ive said it before, but I dont have a lot of contact with Orthodox Christians and this site is good for me and helpful and I try to love everyone here as much as I am able. God is so good to me, its painful.

[M. Rallis]

Dear All:

In thinking about music, especially our Byzantine Ecclesiastical Music, I thought it appropriate to share with you some words written by my teacher and mentor in the psaltic art, Harilaos Papapostolou, who was the head chanter and choir director at Saint Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Washington, D.C., up until his passing in 1998.

“ As music used exclusively in worship, the purpose of Byzantine music is prayer, that it might move, in other words, the hearts of the congregant faithful to repentance, supplication, praise, thanksgiving, doxology and so on. Thus, Byzantine music is called “ecclesiastical” for the very reason that by its nature and purpose it differs from secular music.

Byzantine music is not sensual music, despite that it is, of course, comprehended by the senses. It does not stop at merely satisfying the sense of hearing, but through it enters into the place of the heart and then through the heart enters into the heavenly region of eternity. Just as Byzantine iconography, the special architectural shape of our churches, and priestly vestments and sacred sacramental vessels move the heart through the sense of sight to break through the barrier of the visible heavens into the unseen heavenly world of the spirit. Thus, the heart receives a foretaste of eternity.”

[Isaac David]

Beautiful music can definitely move the soul. A couple of years ago, I went through a very bad time, neglecting my prayers and sinning so much I was in danger of shipwrecking my faith altogether.

One of those days I kept hearing a few notes going through my mind. It sounded to me like the kind of plaintive melody you might hear at the end of a film. This little theme kept 'bugging' me the whole day and I was trying to rack my brains to remember the film I'd heard it in.

Then suddenly, almost at the end of the day, I realised it might be on one of my favourite CD's, a recording of Vaughan-Williams' Five Mystical Songs, his setting of some poems by the 17th Century English priest George Herbert. I listened to each of them to try and trace the song and found my little theme at the end of the third song, Love bade me welcome.

Listening to the words (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/820.html) and hearing the plaintive ending, I began to cry. I listened several times, almost seeing Jesus' eyes, filled with sadness at my present state. By then the tears were flowing freely.

I decided then to say prayers for the first time in weeks. Part of this involved reading a psalm. The psalm for that day was Ps 136, with its repeated refrain, 'for His mercy endureth forever'. How I got to the end, I don't recall, as I was crying so much I had to use more than one handkerchief to dry my eyes and nose.

Five Mystical Songs remains an enduring favourite, from, 'Rise heart; thy Lord is risen. Sing His praise without delays.' to 'Let all the world in every corner sing: My God and King.'

Isaac David

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Daniel J,

do you have any like-minded friends with whom you could hold "jam" sessions, ie improvising using voices or whatever instruments you have readily available? It doesn't require any particular skill, just your imagination. And you could create some pretty heavenly sounds (so says one who has been there, done that) and maybe also influence your friends in a heavenly direction.

seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Father R,

In answer to your e mail enquiry, the Eton Choirbook and Fayrfax manuscript composers I had in mind were from the generation (or two) before William Byrd and Thomas Tallis, ie Nicholas Ludford, Robert Wilkinson, William Cornysh, John Browne, and of course Anon. If you are thinking of buying some, the best path to follow is by way of a group such as The Sixteen, directed by Harry Christophers, which has now issuded 6 CD volumes of this glorious music. Even when performed outside a liturgical context it has the power to inspire Godly instincts, especially when performed in a magnificent church building. Then, I believe, it equates to a form of prayer for performer and listener alike, and it certainly has the emotional reach to touch the hearts of this irreligious age.

seeker

[Pan. Tsiros]

There is no answer(Orthodox) to this question (or something like this).
Instead
read this Luke ch 10 : 41
Pan. Tsiros

[Marie-Duquette]

In relation to "Music" I've looked up Avro Part(mentioned on another thread last week sometimes) on the internet. And, was amazed at the wide variety of Music performed and published by this Estonian!
I found this quote which I thought I'd share with all of you:

"Time and timelessness are connected. This instant and eternity are struggling within us. And, this is the cause of all our contradictions."

Haven't yet heard his music; am looking forward to finding a CD of his works!

Thank you, whoever mentioned this music.
in Christ Jesus, Marie Duquette

[Daniel Jeandet]

Thats a good idea about jamming with friends, thankyou.

[Fr Averky]

DearSeeker,

Thank you for your posts, especially for encouraging Daniel. Everyone can make a little music, and it can be such an expression of present thoughts, what we might be going through,or as an expression of sorrow or joy.

Church music, especiialy that of the Orthodox Church , so well images man's longing for God, his worship of God, his sorrow for his sins and his joy at a feast of the Church and is one of his best means of expressing of that relationship with God. I understand and appreciate how much music means to you in your life; may it serve to bring you closer to God.

Love in Christ,
Fr. a.

[Fr Averky]

To Mr. Tsiros,

Could you be so kind as to explain as to why you consider the quote from St. Luke you have given to this forum to be appropriate for the question at hand?

I have heard it used in many a context, but never like this. I am really interested from whence comes your opinion because I would never have thought that it would apply in a situation as this one. As we have discussed on this thread, music is an integral part of our lives, especially in our expressions of worship of God. I cannot see how it would be relative to Martha concerning herself with litle things while Mary chose the one thing needful.

The Old Testament, especially the Psalms, is filled with references to the worship of God with musical instruments and the human voice. At the Mystical Supper the time of the institution of the Divine Mysteries, Jesus Christ and His disciples carried out the usual ritual for the Forefeast of the Passover, and this included the singing of appointed Psalms. The early Christian Agape or Communion Service was based on the Synagogue service of the Jews, which included the singing of Psalms. the Christian Church has never been without musical expressions of worship.These hymns are indeed a part of that which "is needful," for we do not worship God in the silence of a tomb but, especially in Orthodox Divine Services, all the senses are involved, singing, incense, gazing upon and venerating the holy icons, and in culmination, receiving in our unworthiness the Most Pure Body and Precious Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And, as is stated in the Divine Liturgy, the choir represents the cherubim as expressed in the opening words of the Heruvikon; "Let us who represent the cherubim..." So too with the Churches of Rome and the Anglican Church, for they have such a rich traditioin of music giving praise to God. I could not imagine a service without music. We do not worship like the Society of Friends, but we express ourselves in diverse ways. I would truly appreciate what you mean by your words for perhaps I misunderstood them Thank you.

Respectfully yours,

hieromonk Averky

[Effie Ganatsios]

Music is such an integral part of my life that I could never imagine living without it. In the Orthodox sense, in my opinion, it is primarily an expression of joy.... despondency or spiritual sadness was considered to come from the devil according to the earlier Desert Fathers.

Music for the Orthodox is as Father Averky states - an expression of devotion, of praise, of thankfulness. It is even used as an outlet for grief - remember the old women who used to sing dirges at the funerals of loved ones.

Our liturgy is meant to include all our facilities, two of which are our hearing and our speech.I found the following on a Russian Orthodox site :

"the aim of Orthodox church music is to elevate the human soul to the heights of the world of the Holy Spirit. There is no instrumental music in the Orthodox church, though as Fr. Alexander Men wrote: "The use of musical instruments in church does not contradict Orthodox Christianity". The Bible says: " Praise Him with stringed instruments and organs " (Ps. 150: 4). ......Psalm 150 says: "Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord". The Russian Orthodox Church considers that the praise of God has to be connected with breathing, it has to be vivid and inspired. A person that praises God plays the role of a musical instrument with a soul, contrary to ordinary instruments, that can not possess a soul. "


Music can also contibute to a healing of our mental and physical ailments.....

I am in the middle of reading Confessions of an Unorthodox Orthodox Prodigal Son by Calil Samra.

The following is an excerpt from his work :

“For years, I started out the day by turning on the television set and listening to exceedingly depressing network news. For the past couple of years, however, just about every morning, the first thing I listen to is “The Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church,” a spectacularly beautiful cassette by St. Vladimir’s 100-voice Liturgical Chorale, directed by David Drillock and Helen B. Erickson.

Or, I listen to another communion cassette: “The Lord’s Supper” by John Michael Talbot. Two other favorites are: “Troubador of the Great King,” and “Come to the Quiet,” both by Talbot.

Invariably, I find myself singing along with the cassette choirs, in my flat bass. It is a magnificent way to start every morning, and invariably dissipates negative thoughts and depressive or anxious moods.”

Mr. Samra is a former newspaper and magazine reporter who has written extensively on medical and psychiatric topics. He is a former executive director of the Huxley Institute, a psychiatric research foundation in New York City. He is also a member of the Order of St. Luke, an interdenominational ministry of healing.

Although he admits that he doesn’t have a good voice, he joins in with the choir during the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and he also sings along when playing his cassettes. He believes that this practice is partly responsible for the healing he has experienced.

Read what he says : “There are many beautiful liturgies in the Christian world, but none, in my opinion, can match the beauty, poetry and power of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Even after 17 centuries, the golden-mouthed saint’s liturgy is spiritually overwhelming. If I had heard it in English years ago, the chances are that I would have returned to the Church much sooner.

Our ancestors understand what many of us fail to realize, or have forgotten: that the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, including the Eucharist, has a powerful healing influence on both the soul and the body — when a person participates with the whole mind and heart on a Sunday-to-Sunday, month-to-month, year-to-year basis.

More often than not, the healings take time, perhaps even months or years. But the healings do occur. I know the Divine Liturgy helped me to experience an inner healing and also the healing of a physical ailment.”

I think he should know what he’s talking about given his experience.

I don’t have the music Mr. Samra mentions but I do have many cassettes from Mt. Athos and I also have “The 9th hour” Byzantine Church hymns “sung” during Holy Week, with Petros Gaitanos. A truly inspiring work, full of beauty and majesty.

So, back to the original question :

"At what point does music fall short of its purpose?"

My answer has to be :

When such a wonderful, godly gift is directed to man's baser instincts and is used merely as a method to fill someone's pockets.

My name Effie, by the way, is a pet name for my baptismal name of Euterpe who was the Muse of Music in Ancient Greek mythology.

Effie


Kalo Pascha

[Pan. Tsiros]

Thank you Father A.

Actually i have said the same as Mr Herman Blaydoe.
About Martha

Every time we must decide what comes first and what second.Else we "miss the mark".

Respectfully
Pan. Tsiros