Honour upon the feeble

[richard]

Hi everyone. Just as it is known that man..both Catholics and Orthodox christians could not abide together in all matters pertaining to scripture, is just as assuredly that man has put his complexion upon these traditions.

I respect both traditions and all ways man has come to believe. But a true succession whereby a tradition believes it has to defend itself..for the claim of having a monopoly on all that Christianity encompasses, well, to my believing, Christ is well able to defend himself. As Paul said, 'We cannot do anything against the truth, only for the truth'. The truth is an irremoveable Rock..in whatever form or guise it may come. For us humans, even from the stand-point of having the spirit of truth abiding in us..as becomes Christ..the truth is still only in measure. Paul, who bore in his body the marks of our Lord Jesus..spoke of 'pressing on toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus' to 'apprehend that which he himself was apprehended by' (my paraphrase).

There is so much I can agree with..but I feel I'm still looking for a people that measures up to the words recorded in the Bible..regardless of the back-lash which is inevitable..to a people who believe no person can rightly discern the scriptures for themselves..of which I agree but only to the point that the revealer of scripture is the one who makes the scriptures of no private interpretation. That is, the Holy Spirit..not a set tradition of the ways of man.

The succession of the Rock, Peter, was called such, because Jesus was revealed to him as the Christ..not by flesh and blood, but by the Father. It wasn't Peter's private interpretation or confession. He was 'Rock' because of the immoveable truth disclosed by the Spirit of truth, such truth to him.

It reminds me of something Carl Jung said (although I do not endorse his postulations) 'Nothing is so jealous as a truth'

Yet it is here, in many, many respects, that I'm drawn to the understanding of the Eastern Orthodox veiws. There is so much I can relish..but for certain beliefs of man.

Don't worry, maybe I'll go away soon..I do not mean to upset anyone or anything like that. If it sounds like I'm prideful, I'll respect your opinion. But you guys or so close to the way I veiw it to be. It would be nice to find someone with like-mind.

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Richard:

I am fairly new here to Monachos, as I see you are. Welcome! (If I may be so bold as to offer the welcome!)

I've re-read your post several times and am having a hard time getting the gist of your point. I am sorry...I can be a little slow on the uptake with things.

You wrote, "The truth is an irremoveable Rock..in whatever form or guise it may come." Well, the Truth comes through only one person that I know of and that is Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the Logos. Therefore there is no "whatever form." There is only ONE form.

As to the traditions, they have been handed down to the Apostles and on to the priests through Holy Tradition by God. God preserves His Truth. But He chooses to work through that which He wants, mankind.

I doubt this will be helpful to you. There are those far wiser than I on this discussion board and will not doubt pick up the ball and run with it. But here are my unworthy thoughts, for what they are worth.

In Christ, Trudy (sinner)

[Arsenios]

Richard proffers:

"It would be nice to find someone with like-mind."

The apostle Paul wrote "But we have the mind [nous] of Christ."

Like-mindedness requires that we change our mind to the mind of Christ... In Orthodoxy, it is called repentance - metanoia - meta [change] noia [mind]...

And the more we succeed, the more we rejoice in like-mindedness with all our new-found and like-minded brethren in the family of Christ...

To look for someone who agrees with me is to affirm me, and thereby does not "deny (my)self", which Christ calls us to do... If we are to follow Him...

For in Him, we are of one mind, because we change our minds... From self to God...

Hoping you might change your mind!

Arsenios

[richard]

thank you Trudy for your input and welcome.

But in my understanding, before Christ became a man, he was the Word of God. Scripture tells us that 'all things were made by him' and 'by him all things consist'. Another scripture is..'all things are upheld by the Word of his power'. And much more concerning Christ. So this is my veiw..Christ is the truth laden in all things. Everything consists or is sustained by him.

Just a side note..I wonder if he is the inversion or turning inside-out of the atoms themselves? ha. It's ok to speculate a little ain't it? Imagine if science never hypothesized or set up postulations. As science attests to what is true, so also do souls test the spirits, whether or not they are of G-d.

The 'guise' of Christ is the living language written throughout all of creation..perhaps even in other religions..as so far as their truth and meaning should extend. For instance, in the chinese bible the word 'Word' as 'In the beginning was the Word..is translated 'Tao'..it carries the same meaning in their language. The whole difference then becomes one of geographical locale and the context of time..historically.

Paul, on Mars hill, when in dialogue with the philosophers there..told them of 'their' Unknown God'..of who also was described later as 'a mystery hid in God from all ages'. (paraphrased) and went so far as quoting one of their poets..who said, 'in him we live and move and have our being'.

[richard]

George, nice to meet your aquaintence. I hear what your saying, but I was simplying referring to same-belief identity..of which there is alot of that that I see in eastern orthodoxy..perhaps even as you might veiw the Catholic perspective. I am nothing, we understand that, it's a non-issue in that respect. It is the subjectivity and emmersion in Christ to many respects, that I'm drawn here. The Apostlic Holy tradition, while carrying in its wake much good..in my opinion, is holding itself to..I don't want to call it backward thinking..because history is definite essential to where we have come and going for that matter..but for the ways of man, in 'winning' his doctrinal freedom..even as the history of eastern orthodox has come about. Its really rash of me to make that statement in all fairness..but from the holy Spirit's leading in my life..and understanding from scripture..it really doesn't have to do with man, other then it did have to pass down through human history by some means. then through having to defend it, kind of became hardened through those battles and so a rigidity of a certain standard set on claims as having received it through 'only those who could truly know' took effect. My goodness, even Paul couldn't keep all his followers in 'the true way'. The spiritual world of Holy trinity and mans claims is easily skewed by human thought.

[Rebecca]

Dear Richard,

but there is a peace, calmness, stability and quiet joy that descends on every Orthodox Church service that I've ever attended...

Best Regards...

[richard]

Hi Rebecca, I am glad to hear that. I have never attended an eastern Orthodox service..only Catholic (although I cannot say I was ever a catholic). My 'truth' sticker..if I could say it that way..stems primarily from the Bible itself, and prayerfulness and attempting by faith, to actualize its content.

What you had written instantly draws to mind some passages from Isaiah though..such as..'wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times' and ''they shall rest in quiet and peaceable habitations'. God bless you abundantly.

[richard]

In communicating about scriptural understanding, is in itself, a kind of Oxymoron..because the spiritual world laden in the scriptures themselves, is primarily a subjective or submissive experience in and of itself. Also, to try to premise 'truth' in a sound-bite, well, as the italians would say..forget about it. heh.

So I'm just going to move along 'off the cuff' as it were, and let the chips fall where they may.

Hebrews 1:1 ..'God,..in these last days, has spoken unto us by his son'. I first begin with some words from Jesus (the divine Oracle) on matters of 'church leadership'.

He said, 'there is One shepherd, and One sheepfold' (jn 10) he also said, 'The kings of the earth exercise authority over them, and they that doso are called benefactors, but it shall not be so among you (Apostles) He said, 'which is greater, he that sits down to eat, or he that serves?, is it not he that sits to eat? but I am among you as he that waits on you' and also, 'the elder shall be as the younger, and he that is chief among you shall be servant of all'.

I gotta go, get back to it later.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Richard,

Perhaps you could post a specific question regarding Orthodoxy vis. patristics, monastics, liturgics or ecclesiology.

INXC, Matthew

[richard]

M.C. Steenburg, ok, here's one. In 1 Corinth. 12:22&23 Paul says, (in light of the whole context it is given) "Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness".

In the course of your church service..how does your church bestow more abundant honour upon those members that you would think more feeble? (weak in the faith) ..realising they are much more necessary.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Richard,

It's not "our" Church. It's your Church too, even though you are not formally a member. The Church's theology is that the liturgy (not "our" liturgy) is saving the whole world.

[Arsenios]

Richard writes:

>I was simplying referring to same-belief identity

I know...

> ...of which there is alot of that that I see in eastern orthodoxy

Yes...

> ..perhaps even as you might view the Catholic perspective. I am nothing, we understand that, it's a non-issue in that respect.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I heard was a kind of whimsical longing for like-minded brethren, and lurking beneath that, a similarity of experience of spiritual awakening, that comes to someone outside the baptismal paddock of the Church... I am one of these... So maybe I was just projecting onto you what is actually only me...

I too longed for others who had been similarly awakened outside of any Church whatsoever, for their companionship, so as to affirm the divinity my own awakening, and in larger terms, to just not feel like I am the only one - I remember meeting a guy in the Safeway parking lot who was just like me, travelling through town, and we knew each other on sight, and were greatly comforted having encountered each other - He was a Christian, and I was not [to my knowlege]...

And when God so wills, you will meet others as yourself, but the point I was making is the road to like-mindedness... It is found in Christ's Church [Orthodoxy], and comes by repentence from one's own self-asserted understanding of either the Bible or one's own spiritual experience... My biggest problem as a "born-again athiest" [so to speak] was the endless difficulty and effort required to bring it all to account - Virtually re-inventing the wheel of the understanding of spiritual awakening, and studying the writings of other "spiritual" traditions in hopes of finding some who understood and experienced as I had.

And I remained pretty well isolated, even though some seemed close, for the close ones, when encountered, show up crackers...

Until Orthodoxy, and chapter 1 of volume 1 of the Philokalia, and reading that I knew I was "home", for I was in effect sitting across a Starbuck's table over a cup of joe talking with a long lost and new found and very best friend, and when I checked the intro, the guy was writing in Greek some 1600 years ago...

> It is the subjectivity and immersion in Christ to many respects, that I'm drawn here.

Inner and outer, subjective and objective, tend to lose their distinctions in a lot of ways, for the kingdom of God is within, and yet is not subjective, but is in Truth, and in Spirit...

And is accessed in prayer, turned away from the cares of the world, in which cares we are so enmeshed, hence the need for long repentance...

Christianity 101...

> The Apostlic Holy tradition... is holding itself to... I don't want to call it backward thinking...

It is called spiritual thinking, and is accessed by repentance, in a language of which the world does not know the alphabet... Purification of the heart is the epistemological pre-requisite for the "backward thinking" [as you don't want to call it] of the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy - For we but receive the faith given once for all to the apostles - Not that there is no creativity in it, but that the creativity to which we allie ourselves is the creation of God, of which we are a part, in the communion of Love that is in God...

> ...from the holy Spirit's leading in my life..and understanding from scripture..it really doesn't have to do with man, other then it did have to pass down through human history by some means.

It was given to very specific and particular men, just as specific and particular as are you and I, except that these were discipled in the Holy Spirit, which Life is the Holy Tradition of the theanthropic Orthodox Church... It had everything to do with these men and women... And nothing to do with those outside this Tradition - It is from persons in this Tradition that the faith is received, and it's acquisition taught, by those who have acquired it, to those [like me] who have not...

> then through having to defend it, kind of became hardened through those battles and so a rigidity of a certain standard set on claims as having received it through 'only those who could truly know' took effect. My goodness, even Paul couldn't keep all his followers in 'the true way'. The spiritual world of Holy trinity and mans claims is easily skewed by human thought.

Well, you are right, it is easy for people who are Orthodox to fall into error, and become strident and rigid in pharisitic thinking - That is the way of the world, which always presents its temptations to all of us... Yet to understand Orthodox thinking, you must enter Her as a zygote [enquirer], then an embryo [a catechumen], then are birthed in baptism, are raised as a baby in the faith, and finally come to the acquisition of maturity, which has no upper limit in Christ...

Any help?

geo

[M. Rallis]

Dear Richard:

Here is a link to a patristic explanation of 1st Corinthians, chapter 12, verses 22-23. When I read what our Holy Father, St. John Chrysostom, says about these particular verses, and about the relationship of the “lesser and greater” members of the body of Christ, in general (you should probably read the Homily which precedes the one on the link as well), I am struck with how your question to Mr. Steenberg really seems to miss the spirit of what St. Paul is talking about.

Anyway, if you were to attend the Divine Liturgy, you would witness people worshiping together, receiving together from the same chalice, Holy Communion. Some would be praying, some standing at the candle stand, some chanting, some carrying votive candles to the iconostasis, some preaching, and some in the kitchen, getting things ready for after church coffee-hour. To the extent that those immersed in spiritual things don’t look down on those responsible for the more mundane, and likewise, those responsible for the practical aren’t envious of those more involved with the spiritual, then to that extent you witness a practical application of St. Paul’s message to the Corinthians, in my opinion. But then, the bond of Christian love isn't really visible to one looking on from the outside, but can only be experienced by living on the inside. And, as has been stated elsewhere, the starting points for this experience are obedience and then humility.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-36.htm#TopOfPage

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Richard, for various examples of honour bestowed upon the most feeble and humble holders of the faith in the Orthodox tradition, see the multiple and various examples of the lives of the Saints to this effect. INXC, Matthew

[Richard Leigh]

Dear All,

Well, another Richard has arrived, (and welcome to you, Richard!), a new fish in the pond, and the wake of his arrival, it seems, might be taken as a troubling. Maybe so, maybe not, we shall see.

Dear Richard,

Again, welcome. We appreciate you. Most of us are Orthodox, some of us are (I am...)not, but are interested, as you seem to be.

Correct me, please, if I am wrong. I hear you saying that you are of Roman Catholic background, if only by attendance at mass, perhaps not confirmed? Or perhaps you mean philosophically speaking, no one can really be what one says one is, one announces what one is not? [Don't worry, folks, there will be no need to explain that if it is not understood].

And I hear you saying that from what you have heard, read, what have you, you find Orthodoxy of at least possible interest and you'd like to find what of it you really resonate to? And are inspired by? It seems to have a draw on your life, and you'd like to learn more about it?

I find myself in that boat. Let me just say that the usage of terms, RC & OC are more often than not the same, but their content is different, so, it takes what I call "hard listening" on the part of us "western thinking" outsiders to grasp what the O people just said. I find reading helpful, but then, one always wants to check with the populace about the authors (not all who sound like ducks are, you know).

but let me start (and end, for now) with "tradition" as a term in common use between RC and OC. "Traditions of Men" is definitely not what "tradition" is about in OC. It is the ongoing activity of the Holy Spirit in the Church in His "enlightening office" (my term). And it really is about the experience of the living God in Christ. And learning from those who continue in such experience, especially in how they do it is participation in it. Not that I'm anyone's teacher. As I admitted, I am not OC [you can look me up for what I am -- old timers here know and love me anyway].

Yours,

Richard (Leigh)

P.s. re. the Tao, you might be interested in reading the Orthodox Christ the Eternal Tao by Hieromonk Damascene, Platina CA, Valaam Books, 1991. It is very good. --RL

[Lawrence]

In the course of your church service..how does your church bestow more abundant honour upon those members that you would think more feeble? (weak in the faith) ..realising they are much more necessary.

Richard, during the Divine Liturgy we do sing the Beatitudes.

[Rebecca]

. I have never attended an eastern Orthodox service..only Catholic (although I cannot say I was ever a catholic).

Dear Richard,

In the other thread, I was telling Owen about fall semester of my senior year in college when I took all the cool logic related classes. The other class I took that semseter was Russian history. I remember the professor teaching about how Vladimir sent his emissaries to the different churches of the day (including Rome), seeking which faith he would embrace. These Russian emissaries attended Liturgy at the Orthodox Church in Constantinople and reported back that 'they knew not whether they were in Heaven or on Earth.'

Best Regards...

[Arsenios]

[Richard wrote]:
>>>In 1 Corinth. 12:22&23 Paul says, (in light of the whole context it is given) "Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness".

In the course of your church service..how does your church bestow more abundant honour upon those members that you would think more feeble? (weak in the faith) ..realising they are much more necessary.<<<

Dear Richard:
For a good, Orthodox, and on line commentary on this passage, see John Chrysostom:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-36.htm#TopOfPage

Arsenios

[Fr Averky]

New Richard,

you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can know a great deal about any organization, religious or otherwise, but until you become a part of it, experience it with all its glories and failings, you will never be a part of it. Orthodoxy is not just sokmthing to be "known" or studied-it is a mindset, a world view, and a way of life which is lived in preparation for the next.

With the exception of a few, the people you are speaking to are indeed like-minded in that we have arrived at the Truth. Your hyperboole about Christ being foud in different "guises" over the centuries is not something we hold to be true, although He does appear many times in history before the Incarnation, He is always known.He is the Existing, and He is seen in many ways throughout the history of salvation as recorded in Holy Scripture.

As to Orthodoxy being your Church as well as ours, this is a broad rather speculative remark on the part of one person-howeveer, he certainly is right when he says that it can be yours, but it can only be a reality if you come to embrace the truth of its teachings. I am sure that if we had a long open discussion, we could find many things we share in common, but those are of this world and of this time. However, if not sharing the same concept as to what constitutes salvation and how it is to be attained, in the end, we could not be of one mind with you. yet each of us rather stumbled upon or read ourselves into becoming Orthodox, so a healthy exchange of ideas is heartily welcomed.

Pray, do not leave, for there are many good people who can teach you much if you are willing to open your heart. Christianity for us is not a democratic institution in which each person can interpret Holy Writ, accept or reject any Dogam, or have an individual opinion of what the Churchs teaches, At the same time, the Orthodox Church os not an insensitive Monolith, demanding that everyone march to the same drummer. At best, we all straggle along as best we can, and when we trip and fall, others rush to our aid. We are but children, and the Church is our Mother who loves us,teaches us, protects us, scolds us and is ever-watchful over us.

Orthodoxy is not esoteric or exotic, it is neither a secret society, nor is it Gnostic in nature or appearance. It is, as Owen rightly puts it, open to all. It is the most ancient form of Christianity, able to clearly prove its existernce from the time of Christ, who founded it. Others may try to make such a claim, but their claims will hold no water in the face of history.

What I suggest you do is to purchase a very nice little book entitled "Introducing the Orthodox Church," which is used by many Orthodox Churches for Cateechetics. Simply written, it explains some rather deep mysteries in an every day understandable way. It is to no credit for anyone to approach the Church through her higher spiritual aspects, for it will be far beyond the reader's comprehension, although he won't think so. I have repeatedly warned against the initial reading of the very popular "Way of the Pilgrim," for it has been the cause of many starting off on the wrong foot and suffering for it later.Go to the website POMOG, and there you will find much useful information, and I believe you can long on to "The Prologue of Ochrid," a compendium of Scripture readings, lives of saints, and the spiritual considerations of the author, only recently canonized as a great sasint by the Orthodox Church of Serbia. Any sensible catechist will tell you that by reading the Lives of the Saints, the enquireris given the best view of the kmind and life of the Orthodox Church. Yet, it has great writers and theologians, but it is best to start out simply.

By all means, keep in contact with us, but take the tike to learn what Orthodoxy is about, what it teaches, and basically where it is coming from, lest you unwittingly involve yourself and us in conversations which could become uncomfortable if they stems from a basic lack of mutual understanding. You will find that the good people of this community will help you all they can with not only their knowledge, but their rich expereiences as Orthodox Christians.

It is by God's will that you found Monachos, and as such, it should be regarded as an avenue to learn of the spiritual riches of the Orthodox Church, rather than to become mired in philosophical and intellectual speculation which is but a temptation to all. You are most welcome to Monachos, but come with open heart and the willingness to learn. I myself look forward to learn from your life's experiences and those clear consideration which God has given to yo, and which you will share with us.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[OrthodoxLearner]

Father Bless

This is so very true, I remember you saying that to me about my "Byzantine Spirituality" I now know what you were talking about ever since I started to attend my Orthodox Parish.

In Christ
OL

[Moses Anthony]

Richard,

You have asked,


"...how does your church service bestow more abundant honor upon those members that you would think more feble?"

As a Protestant the mentality of each church member is individualistic, however in Holy Orthodoxy - should you stay around long enough- you'll find that the mindset is communal. Think of your question, i.e; you're asking about an entity, the body. It is one body. We are a community of people who by divine grace, have been joined to, become a member of the Body of Christ. By way of anthrophomorphic analogy, every part of the body has a purpose.
In the Divine Liturgy in the various "Litanies", the priest offers prayers for those who are sick, those in the military, traveling, for both world and spiritual leaders, and those in government. And then, near the beginning of The Anaphora (prayers just before Communion), he says, "Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee, in behalf of all and for all." This is without regard as to whether someone is strong, weak, or somewhere in between.

What more honor can there possibly be bestowed upon anyone than to say regarding the Body and Blood of the Lord, "Come, eat!", for he who partakes of the Body and Blood of the Lord is in truth, of one flesh with Him.

This is the unspeakable honor we receive which itself compels us to be kind, compassionate, loving, bearing each others burdens, sharing the comfort we receive from the Lord whenever we are troubled or in need. As Matthew has said in answer to your question, read the lives of the saints.

Forgive me for being so verbose.

the unworthy servant