Origen and Tertullian

[Richard David Hawthorn]

Christ is Among Us!
I have read a lot of the early Christian writings and have always wondered about Origen and Tertullian. I know one had some pretty unorthodox doctrines while the other ended up as a Montanist outside of the Church- yet they have the greatest body of preserved writings among the pre-Nicene writers. Any ideas as to why that might be? They must have continued to be admired in spite of their errors if their works were copied and preserved through the centuries but, given the later judgement of the Church concerning these men it still seems disproportionate.....

In Christ,
Rd. David

[Olympiada]

To add to this I would be interested in hearing more about Origen's idea of salvation for all, the universalist hope, and how that is a heresy. Any patristic references would be appreciated and I will dig around in my library to see if I have something to contribute.

In Christ
Olympiada

[Richard David Hawthorn]

Hello, Olympiada-

There is actually a debate on this topic at orthodoxchristianity.net going on right now.

In Christ,
Rd. David

[Antonios]

Dear Olympiada,

This link (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/18581.html?1109228694) leads to a previous discussion about "Universal Salvation", one of the theories which led Origen to heresy.

[Olympiada]

Rd David,

Can you link me to that discussion? There is *alot* going on that board and I would rather just be sent directly to it.

The other question is, how important is this topic? Is it a distraction?

[Richard David Hawthorn]

Here you are Olympia-

[LINK] (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7675.0)

The discussion on that thread is a pretty lively one though I personally believe it to be a distraction. One can find a couple of Fathers or early Christian writers who can be construed to believe in Universal Reconciliation, Origen chief among them. However it seems to be quite settled in the consciousness of the Church that this doctrine has never been accepted "everywhere, always, and by all." I believe the Church's position historically has been that salvation is only in Christ and only in the Church. Our mission as Orthodox Christians is to preach the fullness of the Gospel (including Holy Tradition) to all calling all to repentance. Those who don't accept the message we leave to the mercy and undislosed judgement of God. We know generally that those who reject this message after having heard it are lost. Particularly, we don't know what God does with each individual- this hasn't been revealed to us and is none of our business. As for someone like Gandhi- insofar as he was a Hindu and knew of Christianity and yet rejected it: he was lost. Whatever mitigating circumstances God takes into account whether his goodness, his self-sacrifice, his love and virtue, the bad example of Christians he met vs. good Hindus, etc..........this is God's business to take into account and whatever He decides we can trust will be both loving and just. More than this is not revealed to us. What IS revealed to us is that we must offer others the fullness of the Faith in both word and deed.

In Christ,
Rd. David

(Message edited by admin on 16 December, 2005)

[Alec Lowly]

Reader David writes:


"Particularly, we don't know what God does with each individual- this hasn't been revealed to us and is none of our business. As for someone like Gandhi- insofar as he was a Hindu and knew of Christianity and yet rejected it: he was lost."

Aren't you contradicting yourself here, my brother? I wonder whether the reasons ~why~ a given individual rejected the Gospel might not be an important factor in their eternal destiny. Gandhi equated Christianity with the worldly imperial power that he set out to liberate his people from. This identification was mistaken -- but if it was a sincere mistake, the Judge would know this, far better than any of us, and judge accordingly.

In XC,
Alec, sinner

[Richard David Hawthorn]

Dear Alec-

The sentence you quoted was the objective Truth. Objectively, salvation is ONLY through Christ and His Church. The sentence following the one you quoted was the subjective Truth and took into account mitigating circumstances for individuals.

In this life we must act according to the objective reality that all are lost without coming to Christ. That is why out of love we do missionary work. We leave those who reject the message of the Gospel to God's mercy and judgement in the next life.

I would not be surprised if one day we do meet Gandhi in heaven; however, as believers we need to do all we can to win everyone- even the best of the pagans- to the fullness of Christ and the Church.

In Christ,
Rd. David