Constantine the Great: life and times

[Heather M]

Hi Everybody!!!

I've seen some discussion elsewhere about Emperor Constantine. They talk about previous to Christianity he worshipped a sun-god. THey were talking about this being where the doctrine of the Trinity appeared. Most of the sources they were listing were from encyclopedias....which don't seem to me like the best references that one could use to be making arguments like this.

Most of this stuff I was just brushing off...pretty flimsy. I believe in the Trinity 100%, and would never never never doubt that.

But I do want to know what better references that I could look into to find out the truth of the Constantinian era. There are some who believe this is when the Church fell into mostly apostasy and was scattered.

Please mention any books, websites, articles, or whatever you think might help. I'm not big on encyclopedias though....always makes me think of when I did research papers in grade school.

Thanks
Now one year older......heather

[Fr Averky]

Dear Heather,

What strange books have you reading? I am sure that there are those, perhaps Effie, who can enlighten you much more than I can on this question. it was the Emperor Constantine who summoned 318 Orthodox bishops in Nicea in 325 to address the Arian controversy. As we know, Arius claimed that Jesus Christ was a created individual given divine attributes, that He could not have been God - at best, a demi-god or an Angel, St. Athanasiius of Alexandria, answering for the Orthodox position said that Christ had to be true God, for how could a creature, one who had been created, save mankind? And furthermore, how could he have any idea of humanity if He were not true Man?. Thus Jesus Christ had to be true God and true Man. This is putting it as simply as you can get -others will give you better answers than this, I am sure.

As to the Emperor Constantine's religious views before his reign, he was, after all a Roman, and the pagan Romans believed in a whole pantheon of gods, in many cases deifying the emperors themselves. There has been question as to his orthodoxy, for it has been rumoured that he was baptized when he was near death, and was baptized by an Arian priest. The Arian question was not to be firmly dealt with until the 1st council of Constantinople around the year 389. His place in history is that among his secular accomplishments, he helped to preserve the Christian Church in a most important way, summoning the first of the seven great Ecumenical Councils which interpreted and preserved the teachings of Holy Orthodoxy.

His mother, St. Helen, was converted before him, and is famous for going to Jerusalem and finding the true Cross of Christ - finding three crosses, she wondered which was the True cross. At that moment, a funeral cortege came near the place where the crosses had been found. The empress ordered that the body of the soon to be buried Christian be placed on each of the crosses - when the dead person's body touched the wood of Christ's cross, he was given life, and we now celebrate the feast of the Universal Exaltation of the Life-Giving Wood of the Cross to commemorate that occasion.

I personally have not heard of the conjectures of which you speak, but history has been revised so many times lately, it is hard to keep up with the latest opinions of the educated. Hopefully someone will come up with the answer you seek. Many historians like to trace Christian beliefs to earlier religions - likening the Mother of God to any number of ancient earth-godesses or mother-godesses and so on. Jesus Christ is likened to Hermes, an ancient shepherd god. While these might have historical interest, I have never let them trouble me in regards to the pure teachings and Tradition of the Orthodox church. By asking questions, Heather, may you be made ever more firm in your Faith.

Try first of all to read the life Sts. Constantine and Helen - this will give you a more hagiographic view of his life. He is numbered among the saints in the Orthodox church, and is the founder of the Byzantine Imperia. God help you! Oh, and .. Happy birthday! May you grow in grace and the love of God!

All right, all you esteemed historians, help our little duckling Heather to turn into a spiritually beautiful Swan! God bless her - she wants so much to learn, and there is so much to learn.

Father Averky

[Heather M]

HI Father Averky---

THanks....I haven't really read anything about this....that's why I guess I was confused when I heard someone make the suggestion. I think maybe someone was looking at the similarity of certain aspects of Christianity to pagan religions at that time, and trying to assert that St Constantine turned Chrisitianity into a pagan religion. It all seems like flimsy opinions to me....but felt like I need to get some solid knowledge on the subject, in case anyone felt the need somewhere along the way to question me about it.

The only book I;ve read thus far about the actual history of Orthodoxy is "The Historical Road of Eastern Orthdoxy" by Schmemann. I have to admit it's taking me along time to read it, because it's kind of a dry read. It only briefly went into the time of St Constantine.

Thank you Father
heather

[Priest David Moser]

>>I think maybe someone was looking at the similarity of certain aspects of Christianity to pagan religions at that time, and trying to assert that St Constantine turned Chrisitianity into a pagan religion.<<

There is a tendency among "professional theologians", especially in the western confessions to view the development of religion as whole through evolutionary glasses. The assumption is that our conception and beliefs about God and how to worship Him have evolved over the centuries, becoming ever more refined and complex but always based on something previous. The tendency then is to assume that every doctrine has its precursors in the older belief systems. Some Christians react to this tendency by trying to disprove any connection between the pagan beliefs and Christian doctrine. But that doesn't really work. Orthodoxy, otoh, tends to embrace these similarities but from the perspective that knowledge of God and how to worship Him is revealed, not developed. And so the earlier precursors of similar beliefs are actually the preparation of pagan soil by God Himself for the reception of the the Gospel at the proper time. We rejoice in these similarities because they demonstrate the ominiscience and eternal care and compassion of the One True God. They are not a threat to us, but rather "proof" of the truth of Orthodoxy.

Also a short note on the dogma of the Trinity. The images of the Trinity can be found throughout the Old Testament (which decidedly predates Constantine) with one of the clearest being the "Shema" the defining statement of the Hebrew people - "Hear O Israel, The Lord, Your God, The Lord is One." Note the Trinitarian formula of Three persons and One essences in: 1. The Lord - 2. Your God - 3. The Lord ... is One.

Priest David Moser

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. David,

Thanks for a very good comment. The late philosopher Eric Voegelin argued that there were specific times in history in which occured what he called "leaps in being" in which a revelatory event through a prophet or, in the case of Christ, uniquely in the Incarnate Being of God, led to a higher differentiation of consciousness. This differentation of consciousness does not negate the prior, more compact consciousness, for example, of a consciousness of participation in the cosmos, which is the primary experience of human consciousness. But with the Christian revelation, God is no longer consubstantial with nature. God is transcendent, but in the Parousia of Christ is always present.

So With Christ there is a leap in being that has led to the highest differentiation of consciousness, although as a classical philosopher he "complained" that the pneumatic (spiritual) differentiation that was achieved through faith in Christ was purchased with a certain degree of loss of noetic consciousness (philosophic differentiation if you will -- that is, he believed that the eschatological intensity of Christianity sometimes obscured or overcame the rational -- as with various forms of gnostic cultism). But the point he argued is that no scientist or philosopher can claim that his consciousness somehow is independent of the leap in being that occured in the Christian revelation. There is no post-Christian age. Only an age typified by a deformation of consciousness. This does not negate certain leaps of being in the Chinese or other high cultures, but as a purely scientific/philosophical interpretation I think it is brilliant as well as of practical help concerning the traditional Christian problem of institutionalizing the Holy Spirit. Voegelin argued, as you have done, against any evolutionary theory of nature or history of a progressivist nature. He would say, if anything, that "modernity" or "enlightenment" represents a kind of romantic attempt at a pre-Christian consciousness, which is impossible in principle, and is actually an example of pneumopathology on a mass scale. What Christian theology does is it holds together through faith the tension between poles of being: God, Man, Nature, History without absolutizing one or the other, which is the uniqueness of Christianity, or, shall we say, of the Incarnation.

He argued from a philosophical, not a dogmatic ground, that the trinitarian structure is embedded in nature and in the psyche, and it is even used by gnostics to divide history into trinitarian epochs. It has its comical side as well, when, in order to perfectly represent the Trinity, the Imperial government in Constantinople experimented with a triumverate. It didn't work out too well.

Of course, if we ascribed to the sociology of religion theories of a progressive evolution, we would have to place Islam at the pinnacle, simply because it comes later. But here is a perfect example of a deformation of a revelatory consciousness that attempts to overcome any struggle that is inherent in faith, with a list of guarantees, and a very "monistic" undifferentiated view of reality. Of course, not even Muslims can totally dispense with the experience of a differentiation of consciousness, as witness the later development of Sufism. There are also elements of a more differentiated consciousness in Judaism with the advent of Hassidic Jewry and on the more gnostic side, with Kabbala. A Hassidic Jew would probably be philosophically more in tune with an Orthodox Christian in some ways than with his own legalistic brethren. The idea of Exodus is more of a spiritually differentiated idea than simply an historical event.

I could ramble on....

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

Owens. That is a very sophisticated and eloquent rumble. It would seem to me that God has always worked within history, otherwise, there would be no continued revelation, and knowledge of God. God is outside of time, He has shown His unoriginated Being by the creation, yet He has been in time though the man-god Jesus Christ. The God part of Christ was fully out of time,His humaness was in time. That is why He, Christ was fully man, fully God, fully divine spirited and human willed. The Holy Spirit was also seen within created time, at Pentecost, as well as in evidence by his day - to -day spark within man's mind and being. For thirty-three short years, the most important period in time, within the creation, not only were the energies of God seen, but He put himself into history. I have often wished that I would have been born in that period of time, knowing my fallen anture, I'd probably having been hammering the nails into Christ's hands. Maybe better a late comer with the Holy Spirit helping and devining my life. Is God still within time, yes in part by his Holy Energies though the Holy Spirit, and yes in time with the great promise of the eight day, final judgment and final union in God himself. If I am being heretical in any manner please you knowing scholars correct my humble and myopic errors.

[Heather M]

Hi, and thank you so far for your posts.

THank you John for the articles you sent. I will print them and read them tonight.
Father David thank you so much.

Owen, I have to admit that I think I'll need to purchase a dictionary to understand fully what you posted. I'm a simpleton, and a college drop-out, (a dance major at that!) so please forgive me....

The truth is, that I panicked when I found out that there are people who claim to be Christian but who reject the Trinity, especially because of some "sun-god" thing. I didn't panic because they might pose a threat to the Faith, our Lord promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against our Church, but I panicked because of the danger that these people are putting themselves in. And then I felt guilty because there was nothing I could do about it. I felt so sad and sorry...because if I could be a better and more knowledgeable Christian, then I could help them.
That is a terrible feeling, to see someone falling into a terrible mistake and not be able to help any.

THanks again and please keep the posts coming. I appreciate any suggestions, no matter how small you think it is....sometimes all it takes is a few words...

Please pray for my poor soul.....heather

[Heather M]

Hello again

Here's an account of the vision that St Constantine had---

www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/conv-const.html (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/conv-const.html)

You know, after taking a minute to just read about the life, and ponder what life must have been like back then...when Christianity was unknown....Can you just imagine what is must have been like? I just get chills even now when I learn something new...that moment when I go from not knowing, to knowing---like a flash of lightning. I haven't found anything yet to substantiate this person's claim that St Constantine was trying to turn Christianity into paganism. I see where for a while there were attempts at syncretism....but soon realised that this doesn't work.

It was mentioned in a few places (including the book that I already read...mentioned above, but I had forgotten) that in the centuries leading up to Constantine the Roman Empire was moving more towards monotheism. In the middle of the third century is when Emperor Aurelian made the invincible cult of the sun the imperial religion....which really does seem to point towards these people being prepared to receive Christianity, as Father David pointed out.

My sister and I actually talked about this sort of thing a couple of weeks ago, only on a personal and individual level.

As far as being able to say anything to anybody, I don't know. I feel it's better for me now to just remain silent. I learned very quickly that when I get all excited about something, that my word choice may not be as well thought out as it should be. Unfortunately there is still some tension between my aunt and I because of this...
I am still blown away though, by the notion of Christians rejecting the Holy Trinity. My exposure to other religions and systems of beliefs has been extremely limited...so I was really floored by this. It's a sad phenomenon how one stupid little idea can take wings and spread and become a monster. Maybe one day, I may be found worthy to lead the true Christian life to its fullness, and thus help lead others to that path....but for now, I will pray.

One other thing...while we're talking about the Trinity....there are two phrases that silly me is quite content with...."God is Love, and He never changes."

Okay, I think I've gone on long enough....
heather

P.S. Off the subject...but, my son the other day, (without prompting) looked at me and out of nowhere told me how much he loves our Orthodox Church. He said he loves being there more than going anywhere else, or doing anything else. He said even more than playing his GameBoy. Pray for him...

[George Hawkins]

Hi Heather,

One thing you can do (what we all can do) is pray for those people that they may come to a knowledge of the truth. If they do not accept the Trinity, then they couldn't really be called Christian though, as the Trinity is what we as Christians believe God to be. (Are they Jehovahs Witnesses? I have heard though don't know for sure that they reject the Trinity).

In my prayer book, at the end section of Morning prayers is a series of petitions for the living and the dead, among the prayers for the living is the following:
Illumine with the light of awareness the apostates from the Orthodox Faith and those blinded by pernicious heresies, and number them with Thy Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church.

So sweet what your son says! Truely there is no place other than Church in this world where one would want to be.

with love and prayers for you and your family,
In Christ
George

[Br Paul]

George,

It is a good prayer. I have a different translation used every day,which I like.


"O Lord enlighten by the Light of your Holy Wisdom those who have departed from the Orthodox faith, blinded by destroying heresies and join them to your Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church."

Heather,

I too love the beauty and innocense of your son. Moments like this is prescious, I hope you hold them close to your heart.

Br Paul

[Heather M]

George---

I don't think they were Jehovah's Witnesses, though I did read a while back that the JW reject the Trinity. I found this out after reading about what they believe because I was getting regular (and annoying) visits by them for a while. Their literature gave me the heebie jeebies, but I didn't know why...so I had to find out. After reading about their beliefs I had to ask them not to visit me anymore...There seems to be a similarity between Arianism and the JW.

I honestly think that the comments came from someone who may have been involved in one of those "sacred name cults". I know that they are very concerned with where names and practices evolved from. Some of them are extremely anti-Greek.

It still flabergasts me though, that all these different forms of viewing God exist. Like I said...my exposure has been VERY limited...but it has only been the Orthodox that have offered to me the explanation of HOW we are saved by Christ. This was a lingering question in my head all my life...I never understood before WHY things had to be the way they were...only now am I starting to realise how beautiful and perfect that salvation through Christ really is.

heather

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Heather (and everyone else!),

Let me assure you, the JW's reject the Trinity, no question. They also reject Jesus, not knowing that JHWH (the "J" in JW) is the pre-incarnate Logos. They think they worship the one whom Jesus called "Father" but Jesus said, "If you reject me, you reject the Father also." I had better not forget to mention that they reject the Holy Spirit, not acknowledging him as a person, just a "force." No, it isn't pretty. Anyone who does not see that Jesus is God is not Christian (no matter what they say they are).

You might suggest to them that they read the Gospel (and if the ask "which?" I'd say, "Of course there really is only one, but if you mean 'the One Gospel according to whom?' I'd suggest starting with the shortest, the one according to St. Mark" (I would discourage starting anyone on the gospel according to St. John). You might ask them if they believe that God inspiied the Bible, and if so, encourage them to pray to the God who inspired it to enlighten them as to its meaning, and agree (I mean with yourself) to pray for them in their reading as well. Other than that, I would, without telling them about it, pray those prayers that have been suggested regarding their enlightenment and denunciation of the heresies they're ensnared in.

Our God the Holy Trinity put them in your path (you in theirs) for some reason :-)

Richard

P.s., when they come back to you with questions, send them to your priest. Oh, and btw, if they complain about you haveing a "priest," tell them that your priest is a "presbyter," Gk. for "elder"and that they replace OT priests, so, that's why they're called that. And finally, if they don't like anything Greek, just say, "Oops, too bad, God liked Greek so much he sent St. Paul to them, and wrote the Bible in their language. (JW's have a faulty translation btw, and, even if your friends are not JW's (they might also have a faulty translation, but no matter, and not that you should say anything to them about it, but you could always suggest a translation from Greek by Greeks who know and love what what God loves, the Greek language I mean :-), and I'm talking about the Orthodox New Testament, then again, for details send them to your priest (you might warn him they're be coming!) -----R

[M. Rallis]

The "Edict of Milan " (313 A. D.)

"When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

Moreover, in the case of the Christians especially we esteemed it best to order that if it happens anyone heretofore has bought from our treasury from anyone whatsoever, those places where they were previously accustomed to assemble, concerning which a certain decree had been made and a letter sent to you officially, the same shall be restored to the Christians without payment or any claim of recompense and without any kind of fraud or deception, Those, moreover, who have obtained the same by gift, are likewise to return them at once to the Christians. Besides, both those who have purchased and those who have secured them by gift, are to appeal to the vicar if they seek any recompense from our bounty, that they may be cared for through our clemency,. All this property ought to be delivered at once to the community of the Christians through your intercession, and without delay. And since these Christians are known to have possessed not only those places in which they were accustomed to assemble, but also other property, namely the churches, belonging to them as a corporation and not as individuals, all these things which we have included under the above law, you will order to be restored, without any hesitation or controversy at all, to these Christians, that is to say to the corporations and their conventicles: providing, of course, that the above arrangements be followed so that those who return the same without payment, as we have said, may hope for an indemnity from our bounty. In all these circumstances you ought to tender your most efficacious intervention to the community of the Christians, that our command may be carried into effect as quickly as possible, whereby, moreover, through our clemency, public order may be secured. Let this be done so that, as we have said above, Divine favor towards us, which, under the most important circumstances we have already experienced, may, for all time, preserve and prosper our successes together with the good of the state. Moreover, in order that the statement of this decree of our good will may come to the notice of all, this rescript, published by your decree, shall be announced everywhere and brought to the knowledge of all, so that the decree of this, our benevolence, cannot be concealed"

Sometimes it is nice to read the source material.

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

My secretary was JW before she married and returned to her RC roots. Thank God. JV's are the modern neo-expression of Arainism. AN old heresy revisted on us this last century.

[Daniel Jeandet]

I also found the JW publications to be a bit freaky. Then I found some stuff on the net about all the subliminal images embedded in the artwork.

Here is one link to a book about this:
http://www.bigwig.net/knots/nightmares/occult.htm

Its not the best link, but the best I could find right now.

The JW are very strange. I just avoid them altogether now.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Heather, CHRIST IS RISEN!

May I lovingly suggest that while you are in the process of learning about Holy Orthodoxy, not to let yourself get too emotionally carried away by consideration of the many heresies which have attacked the Church over the centuries. Most of them are still around in one form or another. What is most important for you is that you see these in the light of the Truth -Holy Orthodoxy, which Jesus Christ left us as the Ark of Salvation. Yes, it is sad that there are those who reject the Holy Trinity, or the fact that Jesus Christ has two natures, True God and True Man. If you ever get an opportunity, attend a church which for the First Sunday of Great Lent where the Anathem Service is served. First, the deacon recites in a loud clear voice the Nicean Creed, and from there pronounces solemn anathemas upon those heresies which the Church has condemned over the centuries. The Bishop holds aloft the trikirion and dikirion and at the pronouncement of the words "Anathema!" drops them forward, almost to the ground. the clergy, then the choir sins "Anathema" three times. It is very dramatic - but it must be underestood clearly in that it is more a positve than a negative. The Church affirms to the world what She teaches and stands for, and condemns those who, on their own, have come up with various distortions of the Truth.

If one were to panic every time he heard about some new distortion, he could die of stress. Confirm yourself in your Faith by learning as much as you can every day, by reading the Holy Scriptures, the sayings of the Fathers, and the Lives of the Saints. From these three sources you will learn exactly what the Orthodox teaches, and you will be given examples of thos who lived for Christ and who defended the Truths of Orthodxy, and were even willig to die for them. For the rest of your life you will study, and read, and learn. Of course, it is important to know what the distortions of men are, so that you can arm yourself and defend the truth of the Church. However, do not let this effect you emotionally, for it could in time become quite a temptation in and of itself. Move at a slow but steady pace, being moderate in all things, and all will go well. If you have doubts, of course you can ask, but first, take your question to God in prayer, seeking His wisdom and comfort, and you know, you will be surprised how the question will either be answered in some unexpected way, or will be seen as not being worth the bother. This is where true faith steps in, and the reliance upon God for everything. The Holy Spirit speaks to thos who truly love God, filling their hearts and souls with Divine Knowledge. God bless and help you.

In Christ,

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Daniel,

It's easy to do, even if they come to your door. Just tell them you're Orthodox, which means, among other things, that you are Trinitarian in your faith. They should beat a hasty retreat.

Richard

P.s., my late Aunt and cousins were JW. They would visit us when big JW conferences were happening in the Los Angeles area (we lived in the suburbs, but close enough by their standards. They were from San Francisco) There was one such conference at about the time I converted to Christianity (in a Lutheran church,
the nearest Orthodox church was in L.A.) I convinced my cousin that the JW doctrine on the subject was wrong (I was only going to catechism class weekly at the time, but I was quite the apologist for true Christianity!) My cousin went crying to my aunt "Why did you lie to us?" She probably "straigtened" him out JW wise, except when she died, most of her kids left that "church." I don't know what they are now though...) We pray. ----R.

[Heather M]

Thank you Fr Averky.
I will be the first to admit, but the last to notice that I easily get carried away by things. I have an overactive imagination. While I used to think this was a good thing, it lately has only been quite a nuisance. While I've spent the early part of my life building it up, I feel I will have to spend the rest of my days subduing it.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Heather,

Very good idea, for if you cannot control your imagination, it will be such rich ground for the Evil One to sow all kinds of doubts, fears, and temptations, causing you untold agony and spiritual problems. Put your trust in God, and let Him handle it. I assure you, He will.

Sincerely,

Father Averky

[Chuck S.]

I know this is kind of an older post, but I wanted to comment on something Heather brought up about St. Constantine and the Church.

In Evangelical protestantism, it is a common "belief" that for the first 300 years of Christianity, Christians practiced the "true faith" against the evil pagan romans. But in 313AD St. Constantine became Emperor, and literally over night the Church fell into heresy, as Constantine introduced "pagan rituals" into the Church such as, priests, incense, standing while worshipping, chanting the services etc..(of of course no protestant realizes the Jews actually did all these things all sacntioned by God, at the time of Christ and this is how the Apostles and even Christ would have went to the temple for worship)

From then on, so this heresy goes, the True Church died and wasnn't reborn until the Reformation. The idea is that Satan could not destroy the Church from th outside via persecution, so he infitrated it, via Constantine and did destroy it from within.

As a protestant I believed this theory for most of my protestant days. Later on I took the next step and believed th heresy that the Church actually fell into heresy the day after St. John the Evangelist died. (yes thats a newer theory that the Church didn't survive past the 1st century)

I would suggest that MILLIONS of protestants believe one of these 2 ideas. Most protestants know very little or nothing about Church history outside of what we see in the Bible. And they simply try to reconstruct the "original church" from that...

I'd say the main reason I believed this, is because for me I only had 2 choices, protestantism, or Rome. In my mind it was clear Rome is off the mark, so then protestantism must have been right...I didn't even know Orthodoxy existed...this is true for most protestants, or what they do know is so inaccurate they see us as worse that the catholics because we're all a bunch of "pagans" with incense, chants etc..(again not realizing this is EXACTLY how the jews of the first century temple ra worshipped.)

Anways, I know this is an old post but since I actually believed what Heather was talking about at one time, then I thought maybe this might be useful to someone at some point.

Of course it's all nonsense, as an honest study of the Bible, history etc will show...but again prostestants dont do this so...

In Christ, Thomas

[Richard McBride]

Blessed of the Lord, Thomas:

I am thankful for the insights into the more extreme Protestant rejections of everything after the Resurrection -- or, as you say, even after the beheading of John? Did I read that John part correctly? For this seems extreme in the extreme.

Thanks for taking the trouble to mentions these things. I pray for your growth in humility, for you do seem humble; so don't let praise destroy your humility.

richard mcb

[Photini]

Dear Thomas,

Sorry for my delay, but yes, that was exactly what I was talking about when I started this thread. It's very sad to me. When I think back to my involvement in the "non-denom" church, I cannot recall ever being taught ANYthing about the history of Christianity. Even to the point that it never ocurred to me that there were Christians in other countries. But I was from a very small town (about 500 total pop.) so we all kind of lived in our little bubble...even the idea of a city larger than ours was foreign to us. What's funny is that now that I've lived and known the life of the big city...I much prefer the small town in a way (except the long drive to Wal-Mart).

With love in Christ,
Photini

[Chuck S.]

Dear Richard,

Sorry if I confused you!

I was refering to the belief by many protestants the church fell into heresy (in fact they call it the "apostate church" or "the great apostacy") right after the death St. John the Apostle (the writer of the Gospel of John and Revelation) not St.
John the Baptist.

This still puts the so called 'death of the church' before the end of the first century, but it is gaining wider popularity in belief the last few years. Especially among southern Baptists and non denominational churches.

Most other low church protestants still hold to the Constantine theory Heather was refering too..but the other one, sadly, is gaining wider acceptance I think.

Thanks for your comment Richard, I will pray the Lord helps me grow in humility.

In Christ, Thomas

[Chuck S.]

Greetings Photini!

By your name change, I take it you've now been Baptized, Chrismated and taken your first
Communion.

I hope everything went well for you. Congratulations!

In Christ, Thomas

[Photini]

Dear Thomas,

Thank you, yes my Baptism was last Sunday. Everything was very well. I feel very blessed.

Sometimes I feel like a little girl standing on the sidewalk at the bottom of a skyskraper...looking up in awe, not seeing where the building ends and the sky begins.
Please pray for me.

With love in Christ,
Photini

[Daniel Jeandet]

Congratulations. Glory to God! Good name too, Photini. From life to life...

[Vasilis Kirikos]

I purchased a book titled "The First Christian Emperor The Life and Times of Constatine the Great" by D.G.Kousoulas. It is well written. But I had no idea how bloody a man was Constatnitne. At least according to this book. For a review of the book or it can be purchased from Amazon by going to the URL. fromhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1887750614/104-8546161-4212727?v=glance for about $17.

[Olga]

Constantine isn't the only saint with a bloody history. Look up St Olga's story, e.g. from the Russian Chronicles, when she was Great-Princess Olga of Kiev, and how she dealt with the various neighbouring enemy tribes. Not a woman to be messed with. There are doubtless others in history with similar characteristics.

[Vasilis Kirikos]

I know. It seems many of them have much blood on their hands. Neither is Vladmeir the exception.

[Paul C.]

Hi Everybody!!!

I've seen some discussion elsewhere about Emperor Constantine. They talk about previous to Christianity he worshipped a sun-god. THey were talking about this being where the doctrine of the Trinity appeared. Most of the sources they were listing were from encyclopedias....which don't seem to me like the best references that one could use to be making arguments like this.

Most of this stuff I was just brushing off...pretty flimsy. I believe in the Trinity 100%, and would never never never doubt that.

But I do want to know what better references that I could look into to find out the truth of the Constantinian era. There are some who believe this is when the Church fell into mostly apostasy and was scattered.

Please mention any books, websites, articles, or whatever you think might help. I'm not big on encyclopedias though....always makes me think of when I did research papers in grade school.

Thanks
Now one year older......heatherDear Photini

There were religions before Christianity that were prefigurations of it.


The early centuries A.D. prior to Constantine were intensely religious. Every class of people believed fervently in the influence of supernatural forces upon the lives and deeds of men.

Both the religion and the philosophy of the pre-Constantine period supplied the people with practical moral instruction. The philosophers taught that the soul must be purged of carnal appetites and passions by the practice of virtue in order to attain the purity requisite for contemplating the divine.

The doctrine of Mithraism was that the universe was a battleground of the forces of light and darkness, good and evil, and that worshippers of Mithras must join his fight to attain union with him.

Often identified with the sun, Mithras was champion of justice and truth against the dark powers of evil. The rites, which were celebrated in caves and crypts, included a sacramental meal of bread and wine and the worshippers were washed in the blood of a bull that Mithras had slain for the benefit of man.

The religion of this pre-Constantine period was for the most part, other-worldly. Not expecting peace, justice, prosperity or any great happiness in this world, people contemplated and sought for the confirmation of a better life-after-death.

These religions also had a prefiguration of the Christian resurrection essential to their doctrine. Thus the god Attis was slain and resurrected, and the followers who attained mystic communion with him would achieve a blessed existence after their physical deaths. Osiris was torn to pieces, then brought back to life, and his followers could gain entry into the world beyond.

Christianity, superficially had much in common with the mystery religions. It had a God of salvation Who returned to life. It had a mysterious sacramental meal, in which the intitiates experienced communion with their God.

Like the cults, the members were organized into congregations, supporting its priesthood by subscription. Christianity was attractive to the urban middle and lower classes just as the mystery cults were. It attracted notably, less members from the upper classes than did the mystery cults.

Christianity however possessed one very significant distinction from the cults. Christians absolutely refused to worship the other gods, and even despised them as demons. Thus they isolated themselves from public entertainments and avoided dining out, as most meats were sacrificed to idols.

They even avoided military service to escape the soldier's obligation to pagan worship. They did not worship the emperor as a god.

The worship of emperors as gods however, had no religious foundation. Nobody actually believed that the emperors were gods, and no-one even prayed to them in time of need.

Referring to emperors as gods was merely the popularly accepted method of bestowing respect upon the head-of-state, and a show of loyalty to the empire which he represented.

[The two main philosophy/religions at that time were Neo-Pythagoreanism and Neo-Platonism.] (A.H.M. Jones. Constantine and the Conversion of Europe. N.Y., Collier Books. 1962. page 40.)
I hope this has answered part of the question,
Paul

[Nina]

The place where the Cross appeared to St. Konstantine the Great, is in modern (southern) France, in a crossroad before arriving a village called La-Croix-Valmer. Croix=Cross (named in honor of the event and St. Konstantine). There is a stone cross erected there which commemorates the miracle of St. Konstantine.

[James Scott]

I know St. Constantine did great things for the Church. However, I read he was baptized on his death bed by an Arian priest. Is this true? If it's true, how could he be canonized a saint? Granted, he did some great things for the Church, but to be canonized a saint wouldn't one have to be a dedicated Orthodox Christian until death?
Thanks for any insight.

[Paul Cowan]

Hi James,
This has been covered. Try this thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6116-St-Constantine-revered-as-a-saint-for-political-reasons&highlight=constantine+arian)or this one (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6587-Constantine-and-the-ordering-of-the-Church&highlight=constantine+arian).

Paul the "searching one"