John Paul II

[Rose]

After reading your threads on prayers for "non-Orthodox" and today being two days since the passing of Pope John Paul II, I am quite surprised that no mention has been made with regards to prayers for his departure.

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

May God rest the soul of the Pope, through the prayer of all the saints, St John the Theologian and Peter and His most blessed mother.

[Irene]

Dear Rose, There would hardly be a person on earth who does not know of the Pope's repose. A lot of people are in need of prayers. There is no need for mention of specific non-Orthodox to pray for if their repose is very well known. It is those who die alone with few or no family and friends to pray for them that do need specific mentioning.

Did you read when Father Averky posted <font color="800088 &#34;In Dostoyesky&#39;s &#34;Brothers Karamasov">&#34; an Elder tells a young man that every morning when we rise from sleep, we should cross ourselves and say, &#34;O Lord, have mercy on all those souls who will stand before Thee today. And perhaps, thousands of miles away, alone, unloved, and uncared for, a person reposes, and finds himself before the throne of God. At that moment your prayer is heard, and the soul if granted salvation.&#34; Can you imagine ..., that if we do this faithfully, when we ourselves stand before God, those who by our poor prayers were saved will remember us?&#34; Father Averky &#34; </font>

In Christ
irene

A helicopter load of young men and women (http://www.ocmc.org/news.php?sub=news&action=topic&id=174) doing humanitarian work in the earthquake devastated regions of Indonesia died this weekend too, along with the many many victims of natural disaster, wars, accidents ... So many people to pray for.

[George Geo]

I would agree with Irene, and would add that it is not the &#34;Christian thing to do&#34; to make a public display of piety before men- we pray to God in our secret chamber, not to men.

By the way, Irene, I like the multi-coloured &#34;Ken Done -ish&#34; way you spelled &#34;Australia&#34; in your profile!

[Rose]

My, what curious responses! Perhaps I don&#39;t understand in that I am not Orthodox. Forgive me for mentioning that I&#39;ve noticed many times an anti-catholic atmosphere here, but I never thought this would extend to prayers for the Holy Father.

..not the &#34;Christian thing to do&#34;? I assume you are meaning that only the Orthodox way of praying is the Christian way????

&#34;There is no need for mention of specific non-Orthodox to pray for if their repose is very well known.&#34; This really puzzles me.

Bless you, Charalambos Andrew Geo, for your sincere prayers.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Rose,

As Orthodox Christians we are taught that all that we do must be seen as taking place within the context of the Church. And as Orthodox Christians we believe that Orthodoxy is the True Church of Christ. So in the church services the main prayer of the Church is for those who died trying to fulfill their calling as members of the Church. Not all Orthodox follow this rule but for those who do there is the belief that it is wrong to hold the non-Orthodox departed to the standards called for by the Church which the service for the departed seems to involve. In this case what we do (and many of us in Orthodoxy have non-Orthodox parents, family & friends) is to pray for these departed in our personal prayers. We believe that God hears these prayers as surely as He does those of a church service.

In your words there seems to be a note of hurt over what you take as anti-catholic attitudes on our part. We believe that Orthodoxy is the True Church & that there are many aspects of Catholicism & Protestantism which do not accord with what the Church teaches. This understanding does not come from a desire to be offensive and also it does not mean that we believe that only the Orthodox will be saved. Rather we simply believe that Christ handed onto His disciples & apostles the teachings of eternal life & it is the Orthodox Church (I am speaking of the Church now not necessarily its weak human members) which has best been faithful to & preserved this.

I would guess that this would be quite a bit to swallow especially at a painful time like this for you after the Pope has just reposed. Let me just offer however that the type of belief which we try to hold to in the Church is not a belief based on pride as the world does. Rather we just try to hold to a belief that is based on faithfulness to Christ. It could very well be that this is still difficult to accept- if so try to be patient with us and in time you may come to see why we believe in the way in which we do.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rose]

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

As a Catholics, we believe we and you are the true church though there are aspects in both churches which are not in agreement. We both follow the succession of Peter.

There was an announcement on a major television news program today that a number of hierachy Russian Orthodox will be attending JPII's funeral.

I will admit to a sense of hurtfulness when I read some posts on other threads which strike against the heart of our church. Mostly I think it saddens me to see us all (Orthodox and Catholic) not uniting as we once were - the one true church. My faith consoles me in believing the Holy Spirit will bring us together some day.

Thank you again, Father Raphael, for taking the time to speak to me.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Rose,

Here is a link for an Akathist for those that have fallen asleep. I believe that there are Orthodox Christians who pray for others although bringing those prayers to the attention of others
is not an inclusive part of the examples found in the atmosphere of Patristic writings. There are many very good hearted people here who I&#39;m sure don&#39;t really want to be hurtful.

http://users.sisqtel.net/williams/akathist-repose.html

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Irene]

Dear Rose,

I don't know why it puzzles you that I said "there is no need to mention...." I did not say that there is no need to pray for.

I am a very poor communicator and time and time again I notice that people are not understanding my meaning. As I have said on Monachos before some of my very best friends are Roman Catholics.

I am very sorry for the offense I have given you at this sad time. I really should not be on the internet at all until after Lent as I realise I am quite addicted to it and to be upsetting people is totally against what I want to do. I wrote because I wanted to make you feel better - I wanted you to realise just because people don't mention publicly that they are praying for someone it does not mean they aren't. For example on here when someone asks for prayers like Father Raphael for his recent travels I am not sure that anyone wrote "I'll be praying for you" because there is no need - it is a given. The very pious people are very quiet, there are many people on this list that rarely or never post at all. Then there is me thinking that I can make people feel better with my poor choice of words and failing.

I am so very sorry for the offense - you have no idea.

Forgive me a sinner.
irene

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Here is a beautiful account in the Spiritual Meadow of John Moschos about St. Gregory Pope of Rome. And believe I have no hidden agenda in posting this.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif Although I was sort of reminded of the newly departed Pope's habit of kissing the ground of countries he would visit.


We encountered Abba John the Persian at the Lavra of Monidia and he told us this about Gregory the Great, the most blessed Bishop of Rome:

I went to Rome to pray at the tombs of the most blessed Apostles, Peter & Paul. One day as I was standing in the city-centre I saw that Pope Gregory was going to pass by. I had it in mind to prostrate myself before him. The attendants of the pope began saying to me, 'Abba, do not prostrate yourself', but I could not understand why they had said that to me; certainly it seemed improper for me not to prostrate myself. When the pope came near and perceived that I was about to prostrate myself- the Lord is my witness brethren- he prostrated himself down to the ground and refused to rise until I had got up. He embraced me with great humility, handed me three pieces of gold and ordered me to be given a monastic cloak, stipulating that all my needs were to be taken care of. So I glorified God who had given him such humility towards everybody, such generosity with alms and such

In Christ- Fr Raphael

PS: I converted to Orthodoxy through Madonna House in Combermere, Ontario. For those who do not know this is a Catholic lay apostolate community. At the time Catherine Dougherty was still alive and it is because of her (along with Archbishop Joseph Raya who was also there at the time) that I began to convert towards the Church & also that I knew I had to look into what Orthodoxy was. I'm not sure if this was something she intended but she produced a whole little boat load of Orthodox converts in the late 1970s. Anyway I will always owe a debt of gratitude to her, Madonna House & Roman Catholicism but of the older sort- I only realised later that the ethos of Madonna House was a pre-Vatican II spirituality but all in English.

[Rose]

Forgive me Irene, I misunderstood you. Thank you for the further explanation. Your kind words are warmly accepted.

Father Raphael, it&#39;s good to read a little about your formation. Using the internet, it&#39;s sometimes difficult to know whom your speaking to without looking into their eyes.

Thank you for the link, Matthew. You are most helpful.

[Irene]

Thank you Rose, It is actually a good thing that I found out how my post sounded. Often I get my children to check what I write to make sure it sounds ok. &#40;Unfortunately they are really busy with exams and last minute studies at the moment&#41;. It is better &#40;for me&#41; to know that something is wrong and try to fix it than to go on oblivious. &#40;I think&#41;

I have been reading some interesting articles about the Pope&#39;s life and the trials and heroic deeds of his life at the time of the Nazi&#39;s that I had never realised.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Statement by His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
upon the falling asleep in the Lord of Pope John Paul II

May His Memory Be Eternal.

His Holiness Pope John Paul II, having fulfilled the duty of life, which is common to all humans, has fallen asleep in the Lord. May God give rest to his soul in the place of the living, where there is no sorrow, grief nor mourning.

Pope John Paul II envisioned the restoration of the unity of the Christians and he worked for its realization. Thus, and in order to give the mark of his papacy, he visited the Ecumenical Patriarchate only a year after his election, and together with Patriarch Demetrios declared the formation of the Joint Committee for the inception of the Theological Dialogue between
Orthodox and Roman Catholics. He did not hesitate before pains and sacrifices in order to bring the message of the Gospel to the entire world and to contribute to the establishment of peace. History will also recount his crucial contribution to the fall of atheistic communism. There are not many such brave men of vision, as the departed Pope. During his passage through the Hierarchy and especially through the leadership of the Roman
Catholic Church, he drew deep his traces on her and on the history of all humanity, and he has left behind the indelible imprint of his strong personality. Many of his initiatives have been inception of developments, which still advance today. He was a pioneer in many issues. For this reason, his death is a loss not only to his Church, but to all of Christianity as well, and to the international community in general, who desires peace and justice.

We express our deep personal sorrow and on behalf of the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the resting of our beloved brother in Christ, and we share the mourning of the millions of our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters worldwide.

May his memory be eternal and may the Lord of life and death bring forth a most worthy successor, among the many personalities that adorn the hierarchy of the sister Church.

At the Patriarchate in Constantinople, 2 April 2005

His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

[Mary Stavroula]

Matthew,
I want to learn more about &#34;bringing those prayers &#40;for non-Orthodox&#41; to the attention of others is not an inclusive part of the examples found in the atmosphere of Patristic writings.&#34; I would appreciate more specific references to specific Patristic writers who forbid Christians not to pray for people who are not Orthodox. And since the Christian church was not split between the East and West, please be specific about who they are writing about that would be analogous to Catholics today.

I would think that especially if we perceive someone&#39;s soul to be in jeopardy, they would be the most important people to pray for.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Mary,

I think you have misunderstood me, I never said that Patristic writers forbade Christians to pray for people who are not Orthodox. Quite the contrary, see the link I referenced in my post to Rose;

http://users.sisqtel.net/williams/akathist-repose.html

Prayers for non-Orthodox are in the petitions during the Divine Liturgy and said many times. &#40;For our country, the president, and all those in public service, let us pray to the Lord.&#41;&#40;For travelers by land, sea, and air, for the sick, the suffering, the captives, and for their salvation, let us pray to the Lord.&#41; Prayers for non-Orthodox are also part of the morning prayers and evening prayers in every prayer book for Orthodox Christians that I&#39;ve seen.

I think it is accurate to say that public presentations of our personal prayers is not something that would be advocated by any Patristic writer. In short the I think the consensus would be in accordance with the Holy Writ.

Matthew 6:6
But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

I think that if or when we go into our room &#40;heart&#41; and shut the door we would be following what the Church Fathers teach.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Sandra June Hofstead]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
I have rarely posted anything to these discussions, however I wish to mention the following:
Last week I attended icon painting class in Washington DC at St. Nicholas Cathedral. On Sunday at Divine Liturgy John Paul II, Pope of Rome, was mentioned by name in the litany petition for the newly departed servants of God along with others named there. Also during the sermon he was held up to us as a model of one bears witness to the power of the life-giving Cross of Christ before millions of people, carrying out his duties in spite of his debilitating and often humiliating illness. I feel that this was very appropriate for us Orthodox worshippers to have done.

[Rose]

I would like to make a final observation on the statements of publically offering prayers by Orthodox for anyone.

Having some time on my hands, I found a number of prayer requests along with their responses on Monachos&#39; Casual Conversation Section. So you see, I&#39;m left with still more confusion regarding your actions vs your words. The only conclusion I can reach is that the Orthodox pray for the Orthodox alone. And if they do pray for non-Orthodox it is only within the context of Church services. The only exception to all this is the Orthodox hermits who pray for everyone.

Well, I&#39;m back to lurking for a time. Thank you all for responding on this thread.

[Dianne S.]

Hi Rose, I&#39;m normally just a lurker too. I can tell you even after having converted to Orthodoxy only several months ago that we do indeed pray for the non-Orthodox. Otherwise I couldn&#39;t pray for any members of my family, and I certainly do pray for them, as well as for my non-0rthodox friends. And my priest also prays for non-Orthodox by name, and he would not do anything forbidden by the archbishop. This seems, best I can tell, to fall under the arena of theological opinion rather than Holy Tradition.

Someone will correct me if I&#39;m wrong. &#40;No doubt. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif &#41;

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Matthew and all,

I guess I am getting confused by this thread. When you say:


"I think it is accurate to say that public presentations of our personal prayers is not something that would be advocated by any Patristic writer. In short the I think the consensus would be in accordance with the Holy Writ."

I am confused.

Why? The only difference between public and private prayer is the obvious venue. If, as you have pointed out with the Akathist mourning hymn, we pray for non-Orthodox in the Liturgy, then those same prayers that we utter privately can be uttered publicly which turns them from private into public prayer. Can't we just say that sometimes we pray privately and sometimes we pray with others (where 2 or 3 are gathered together in My name)?

I think we have to be careful about being legalistic based upon Christ's parables. Our Lord told the story of the Publican and the Pharisee praying in the synagogue to admonish his disciples against false piety and ostentatiousness. After all, he did not correct the fact that the publican was in the synagogue praying, but rather, he called our attention to his humility.

The spirit of His teaching is this: pray from your heart no matter where you pray. He did not forbid us to pray publicly or to mourn publicly. If this were so, we would not have public liturgy. The Pentecost event was an example of public prayer. He prayed publicly all the time. He prayed in boats, on hillsides, in gardens, in synagogues, in the temple. He wept openly for Lazarus and prayed in front of everyone before he called Lazarus forth from the tomb.

One last observation: one of the most powerful evangelistic acts that one can do, and I say this from my own experience, is to tell someone struggling with their faith that you are praying for them. I have seen people who confess to be atheists and to be angry with God and the church, melt in their hearts and come to tears when I have told them that I would pray for them. It is good to pray for someone, but often it is even better to tell them that you are doing so.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Rose,

We certainly do pray for the non-Orthodox. I think you can take this as universally accepted.

Where we do differ, jurisdiction to jurisdiction, parish to parish, and also person to person is whether we can mention the non-Orthodox by name in the services. This is not because anyone thinks that others are not worth praying for. Rather it is differing interpretations of the specific purpose of the prayer which occurs in the services- especially the Divine Liturgy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Janice Chadwick]

Fr. George and Fr. Raphael, I have seen Orthodox on other boards/lists I belong to argue that &#34;Memory Eternal&#34; cannot be used when referring to the death of non-Orthodox. They said that to do that violates canons. Is this true?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I don&#39;t recall having heard that there are canons about this. It would be good to see them if there are.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Cheri Mullins]

Attending tomorrow&#39;s funeral Mass:

AUTORITA&#39; RELIGIOSE

- IL METROPOLITA KIRILL della Chiesa Ortodossa russa, capo del Dipartimento per le relazioni con l’estero del Patriarcato di Mosca
- BARTOLOMEO I patriarca di Costantinopoli e guida spirituale dei cristiani ortodossi
- ODED VINER direttore generale del rabbinato di Israele, assieme al rabbino Shaar Yishuv HaCohen
- L’ARCIVESCOVO CHRISTODOULOS della Chiesa Ortodossa greca
- NASRALLAH SFEIR patriarca dei cristiani maroniti
- GAREGIN II capo della Chiesa apostolica armena
- ROWAN WILLIAMS arcivescovo di Canterbury e guida spirituale della Chiesa Anglicana
- DANIEL DATUASHVILI metropolita di Abkhazia
- TEOCTIST patriarca ortodosso romeno
- FINN WAGLE vescovo della Chiesa protestante norvegese
- K.G. HAMMAR arcivescovo luterano svedese
- ABUNE PAULOS patriarca della Chiesa ortodossa di Etiopia
- MESROB II patriarca della Chiesa armena

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Since yesterday's posts I did some reading about prayer & especially prayer for the departed. The subject of prayer for non-Orthodox is not brought up specifically in what I read but one can I think read between the lines to understand how the Church would see this.

From Fr. Michael Pomazansky; Orthodox Dogmatic Theology; Chap. 9- Prayer as the Expression of the Inward Life of the Church:


Prayer is the manifestation of the Church's life and the spiritual bond of its members with God in the Holy Trinity, and of all with each other. It is so inseperable from faith that it may be called the atmosphere of the Church of the breathing of the Church. Prayers are the threads of the living fabric of the Church body, and they go in all directions. The bond of prayer penetrates the whole body of the Church, leading each part of it into the common life of the body, animating each part and helping it by nourishing, by cleansing, and by other forms of mutual help. (Eph.4:16) It unites each member of the Church with the Heavenly Father, the members of the earthly Church with each other, and the earthly members with the heavenly members. It does not cease, but yet more increases and is exalted in the Heavenly Kingdom."

Specifically about prayer for the departed:


The Church prays for all who have died in the faith [my emphasis] asking forgiveness for their sins.

Here also is a passage from the Elder Cleopa of Romania on prayer for the departed:


We know that God asks that we love our fellow man and looks on this love with joy. When we are truly praying for others there is nothing greater than love. God hears the prayer of the Church very clearly, especially when the prayers of Christians on earth are united with the suppliant voices of angels in the heavens, and that of the Lady Theotokos. The Church carries out incessant intercession for Her members. [my emphasis] The angels and apostles, martyrs, and patriarchs amd most especially our Lady the Theotokos, pray for us all. And this union is the life of the Church. [again, my emphasis]...prayer for the reposed is not only a sign & strengthening of the love we share between us, but also a proof of our faith. Thus, the Saviour says, 'If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.'"

There is so much wisdom in these two quotes not only about what the prayer of the Church is but also indirectly about what the prayer of the Church is not. Because there is so much here perhaps it is better to make this a two or three post message over the next while.

In any case just some thoughts to begin: The above quotes show that our prayer should always be of the Church. That is- our prayer to be true prayer should always be grounded in the Church's Faith and be for the strengthening of Faith of others. Thus prayer should not be a generic prayer for the general well-being of others. Rather its purpose is specific because it is grounded in something specific- or rather Someone specific- Who is Christ. So our prayer should always be ecclesiological & not generic and in this sense it is an exclusive type of prayer. We pray that all come to a "knowledge of the Truth" (whether they are living or departed) & this Truth is very specific- Christ Who is only known within His Body.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Elias Young]

RELIGIOUS AUTORITA&#39;
- the METROPOLITA KIRILL of the Russian Orthodox Church, head of the Department for the relations with the foreign country of the Patriarchy of Moscow
- BARTOLOMEO the patriarch of Costantinopoli and spiritual guide of the orthodox Christians
- ODED VINER general manager of the rabbinato one of Israel, together to rabbi Shaar Yishuv HaCohen
- ARCHBISHOP CHRISTODOULOS of the Greek Orthodox Church
- NASRALLAH SFEIR patriarch of the maroniti Christians - GAREGIN II head of the Armenian apostolic Church
- ROWAN WILLIAMS archbishop of Canterbury and spiritual guide of the Church Anglican
- metropolita DANIEL DATUASHVILI of Abkhazia
- TEOCTIST orthodox patriarch romeno
- FINN WAGLE bishop of the Church Norwegian protestant
- K.G. HAMMAR Swedish luterano archbishop
- ABUNE PAULOS patriarch of the orthodox Church of Ethiopia
- MESROB II patriarch of the Armenian Church

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;
Cheri Mullins wrote:

Attending tomorrow&#39;s funeral Mass:

AUTORITA&#39; RELIGIOSE

- IL METROPOLITA KIRILL della Chiesa Ortodossa russa, capo del Dipartimento per le relazioni con l’estero del Patriarcato di Mosca
- BARTOLOMEO I patriarca di Costantinopoli e guida spirituale dei cristiani ortodossi
- ODED VINER direttore generale del rabbinato di Israele, assieme al rabbino Shaar Yishuv HaCohen
- L’ARCIVESCOVO CHRISTODOULOS della Chiesa Ortodossa greca
- NASRALLAH SFEIR patriarca dei cristiani maroniti
- GAREGIN II capo della Chiesa apostolica armena
- ROWAN WILLIAMS arcivescovo di Canterbury e guida spirituale della Chiesa Anglicana
- DANIEL DATUASHVILI metropolita di Abkhazia
- TEOCTIST patriarca ortodosso romeno
- FINN WAGLE vescovo della Chiesa protestante norvegese
- K.G. HAMMAR arcivescovo luterano svedese
- ABUNE PAULOS patriarca della Chiesa ortodossa di Etiopia
- MESROB II patriarca della Chiesa armena

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

In the passage from Fr Michael Pomazansky which was quoted yesterday he said: "Prayer is the manifestation of the Church's life and the spiritual bond of its members with God in the Holy Trinity, and of all with each other. It is so inseperable from faith that it may be called the atmosphere of the Church of the breathing of the Church.

So the prayer of the Church is always ecclesiological in the sense that it is as Fr Michael says, "the manifestation of the Church's life" and it serves as, "the spiritual bond of its members with God in the Holy Trinity, and of all with each other." Our prayer then should be grounded in the Faith and given life by our life in Christ through the Holy Spirit. Our prayer should not be simply a generic prayer for the well-being of the world but rather an Orthodox prayer for its salvation. And of course we mean something specific by 'salvation.'

From this we can I think see why the prayer of the Church is specific. It is the prayer of the Church for the Church. Of course our first reaction to the idea that prayer is "for the Church" may be negative- we may wonder whether this is too exclusive & restrictive. But what is meant by "for the Church" is that all should come to the Church in order to attain their salvation; and in some deeper sense that all should become Church, ie that all should find themselves in Christ & be grafted onto Him Who is the True Vine.

This is a bit like the mother who explains to their child that it is wrong to do something & that if they do this thing it will hurt them. The child complains that their mother is trying to restrict their lives. And in some sense what the mother asks is restrictive but this is so that the child will not be hurt. Isn't the desire of the mother in this case like the prayer of the Church in what it intends? For the prayer of the Church is not some sort of prayer "that everything will turn out alright". It certainly should have no hint in it of the attitude of "you're alright so we're alright" for this is just a cover for our own selfishness through trying to promote the selfishness of others. In fact this is not even prayer.

I think that now we can see more easily why the main prayer of the Church is for Her members or the Faithful. It is not that the Church does not care about those outside of the Church but rather that salvation only comes through the Church and the first concern of the Church is for those who have committed themselves to the Church & are its members.

For example in the service for the Departed which occured today we read in the canon: "At the prayers of Thy holy martyrs, O God, make Thy servants who have fallen asleep in faith to be citizens of Paradise..."( Ode 7).

"Where the glory of Thy life shines upon them, make Thy faithful servants to dwell..." (Ode 7)

"O compassionate Lord, supreme in love, Creator of all, give rest in the bosom of Abraham to Thy servants who have departed from us and gone to Thee in faith." (Ode 9)

Now these are only a few examples from many in the services. It surely is important that almost without exception in the Church services prayer for the departed is always placed in the context of "Thy servants" which the services make clear means "the faithful" ie those leading or striving to lead an Orthodox life within the Church.

To return to the question often put about the type of prayer which the Church offers- "this seems so restrictive, so how is it love?" The prayer of the Church is an offering of the love of Christ working through its human members. It is not love in the worldly sense of praying for salvation by every definition for this would not be love. This would be a prayer for the world that it find its life in this world rather than in Christ & His Church. Ultimately this would be a prayer for the triumph of death rather than life. But the Church by definition can only offer what is the Life in Christ and this defines what it's prayer is and also how it prays.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The Church prays that all may be saved through Christ and His Body the Church. And this is so whether the Church is praying for its own members or for the non-Orthodox. So the prayer of the Church is very specific and not generic.

Of course when we refer to the non-Orthodox we are talking about a very broad category, something which goes all through the spectrum from complete atheist, to hedonist, to non-Christian, to a non-Orthodox Christian. It's important to keep this in mind when talking about how the prayer of the Church relates to all of these people. If there are some who can pray in the Church that the newly departed Pope John Paul II is "a servant of God" it is more difficult to see how we can properly use this title when praying for someone only nominally Christian who may have lived a sinful way of life with little or no regard for God. But yet we still pray for such people even if they are not exactly "servants of God".

In all of this I think we still need to keep in mind that our prayer is rooted in the Church's prayer; and that its salvific action comes not just from a personal effort or sentiments or emotional connections on our part but rather much more because we are members of the Church. First of all there is the simple desire to pray for others whomever they may be- something which the Church brings to our heart & mind. But more deeply than this our being members of the Church allows the grace of the Church to spread to those we pray for in some unseen way. In this sense prayer is the love of the Church which may heal those who are broken & presently outside of the Church.

Perhaps we can apply two well known passages from the New Testament to this type of prayer. The first is the passage from St. Paul where he refers to how though the believing partner the unbelieving partner is saved. In this way also our prayers may be effective in regards to those who are really not believers in any obvious way.
Then about other Christians who are nevertheless serious in their faith perhaps we could apply the passage from Hebrews where it states that, "and all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect." (Heb. 11:39-40). In other words even for these who departed apart from the Church they may still be saved through the Church for at the culmination of all things in Christ the only reality remaining will be the One Church of Christ. So just as the Jews of old awaited the Church of Christ for the fulfillment of their expectation- even if they did not know this; non-Orthodox Christians also await the fulfillment of their expectation in the Church- even if they do not know this. And just as the Church was "the end of days" for the Jews; so the Church at the culmination of all things in Christ will be the real "end of days" for those non-Orthodox Christians of good heart who in their own way are really seeking Christ. And who knows- maybe the net will be cast considerably wider than this also.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

A few final thoughts on the prayer of the Church especially as it relates to the non-Orthodox. It is often said that mentioning the names of the non-Orthodox out loud in the services is justified as we already pray for the non-Orthodox ruler of the country. The original form of the Litany however makes it very clear that in the Liturgy & other services the Orthodox ruler was who was being prayed for.

Unfortunately I don't have any Slavonic service books from the pre-Revolution era, but I do have a Serbian sluzhebnik which preserves the older form of the Litany where we pray for the ruler. Thus in the Great Litany it says: "For the right-believing & Christ-loving --- (name of ruler) let us pray to the Lord." Often in the petition for the ruling authorities there would be added a phrase concerning the "Christ-loving army." Then in Hapgood we find immediately after the petition for the ruling authorities, "That He will aid them & subdue under their feet every foe & adversary."

So obviously up until we found ourselves in non-Orthodox countries the ruling authorities & army, etc were always prayed for in an Orthodox context. It is our way of praying for the ruling authorities which is the innovation. Not that it is wrong since St. Paul himself commands that we should pray for those who rule over us. But we should I think recognise that this puts us back into the tension in regard to the ruling authorities familiar to the ancient Church. Thus for example we pray for the ruling authorities in Canada but those very same ruling authorities have long ago legalised abortion and are now in the process of trying to legalise same sex marriage. So for most of us in today's world when we pray for the ruling authorities we mean this in the most general way- as the priest prays in the Liturgy after 'It is truly meet...';
"for this land, its rulers & armed forces. Grant them, O Lord, peaceful governance, that in their calm we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness & honesty."

Thus this is a prayer not for the salvation for the ruling authorities but rather simply that they would provide as conducive as environment as possible for the Church. So I do not think this example can be used to try to justify prayer for the non-Orthodox in the services since what we are talking about is a prayer for their salvation. But as has been made clear already the only prayer that the Church can offer for the world is that it should come to the Church in order to attain its salvation. It would never make any prayer that implied the possibility of salvation outside of the Church.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Father,

I have to disagree - the intent of the praying for rulers has nothing to do whether we are praying for a ruler who does bad or good - especially considering all of them do both.

the intent is that we pray for them regardless of whether they are good or bad - we need to pray for them in the hope that God inspires them to do the right things -

Our church history isn&#39;t so black and white either. There is an incredible number of heretical rulers &#40;Leo the Great who was one of the Byzantine empires great iconoclasts but was also instrumental in upgrading its military and expanding it economy for the good of its citizens - Even our own St Helen wasn&#39;t totally clear on Arianism&#41; who have been prayed for by our faithful

It&#39;s not so black and white - good vs bad, secular vs Church-based

You pray for your rulers to be good rulers.

The formal development of the Litany you describe occurs later in the development of the Liturgy - I&#39;m pretty sure - so it, as you say, most likely developed at that time where the rulers were indeed Orthodox. However, there is no doubt according to Ephesians that the rulers Paul refers to are not &#34;Orthodox&#34; or church rulers. Considering that a form of liturgy existed during the time of Paul, I find it hard to believe that the Christian community did not pray for non-Christian leaders. It&#39;s a spiritually sensible thing to do. To pray for them regardless of what they believe in or who they are - I&#39;d pray for them even more! since they have such a huge effect on our lives -

God bless - Always look forward to your perspectives Father http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Anestis,

You raise some very interesting points. I don't mean that prayer for rulers should be governed by whether they are bad or good (this is difficult to know in any case as we often do not like the actions of the wise & love the actions of the unwise) but rather that the evidence of the Liturgy itself shows that until recently we prayed concerning the Orthodoxy of the governing authorities. And in turn this shows how the Liturgy & other services are a prayer of & for the Church.

Doing further research on this I found the following.

This is from the oldest manuscript of a complete Liturgy still existing(St. Basil's Liturgy- Barberini). Its original date is c.800. This is part of the long prayer of St. Basil's Liturgy that the priest reads while "In thee rejoiceth..." (hymn to the Theotokos) is being sung.


Remember, Lord, our most religious and faithful Emperor, whom you thought fit to rule the land: crown him with the weapon of truth, with the weapon of your good pleasure; overshadow his head in the day of war; strengthen his arm, exalt his right hand; make his empire mighty; subject to him all the barbarous people that delight in war; grant him help & peace that cannot be taken away; speak good things to his heart for your Church and all your people, that in his peace we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and honesty.

What is interesting here is that our present versions of St. Basil seem to leave out entirely this part of the prayer and skip to the next section which is a short prayer to "Remember all rule & authority...In their goodness, preserve Thou the good, and through Thine own goodness make Thou the evil good." So it can be seen that the connection between the Orthodoxy of the ruler and the welfare of the Church which is implicit in the original is now removed from the overall prayer.

Interestingly while the present version of St. Basil's Liturgy skips over this ancient part of the prayer, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom retains the ending of it where it says but now in just the most general terms:


for this land, its rulers and armed forces. Grant them, O Lord, peaceful governance, that in their calm we, also, may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Here the connection between the Orthodoxy of the ruler and the Church is completely lost as is even the specific connection to the Church. Instead the prayer is now that "the peaceful governance" of the authorities (ie general stability of government) may lead to, "a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty" which can be as much a social or moral statement as anything specifically to do with the Church. Thus missing to some extent is the ecclesiological context of the original prayer.

Here are some further examples of how the Church prayed for governing authorities. Here is a 9th century version of St. James Liturgy.


Remember, Lord, our most pious and Christ-loving emperor, his pious and Christ-loving empress, all his court and his army, for their help from heaven and their victory: lay hold upon weapon and buckler, and stand up to help him; subject to him all the warlike and barbarous nations that delight in war, moderate his counsels, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all piety and gravity

Here also is an early version of the Liturgy of St Mark used by the Patriarchate of Alexandria (present day Copts). Besides the beautiful flow of the words notice how similiar the intent & wording is to that of St. Basil's Liturgy. This speaks of a universal Church tradition concerning prayer for the rulers that even extended to the very wording of the prayer.


King of kings & Lord of lords, guard the kingdom of your servant our Orthodox and Christ-loving Emperor, whom you appointed to rule over the land in peace and bravery and righteousness. Subject to him, O God, every warlike enemy at home and abroad. Speak to his heart good things concerning your holy, catholic, and apostolic Church that we may live a quiet and peaceful life in his peace, that we may be found in all godliness and honesty towards you.

It should be pointed out that in the ancient Patristic descriptions of the Eucharistic service- the Didache, Justin Martyr & St. Hippolytus- no mention is made of prayer for the ruling authorities. Of course not mentioning this does not necessarily mean that it was not done at the Eucharist. But from the manuscript evidence that we now have the evidence seems to point towards that the ruling authorities were prayed for when the Empire became Orthodox and thus the authorities were prayed for when they were Orthodox. In any case it would be very helpful to know more clearly whether in the most ancient forms of the Eucharistic services prayer was offered for the pagan Emperors. Somehow I suspect not. Indeed we should ask how Christians prayed for the Emperor during periods of persecution? Was this done in the Eucharistic assembly or not? (I suspect not). So we should ask how St Paul's injunction to pray for the ruler was actually applied by the ancient Christians. Was this done while in their assemblies or not?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Thank you Father -

I looked into the texts the other day to see how they functioned and you are correct - The Great Litany, in my understanding, was a later addition - somewhere around the 8th century, I think. So it&#39;s more than possible that they weren&#39;t included in the early Church&#39;s Eucharistic Liturgy &#40;although I&#39;d be interested in finding out what speculation exists on variation in early Eucharistic practice and Liturgical structure&#41;




St Constantine was not a baptized Christian until on his death bed.

Was his name mentioned in Eucharistic prayer?

I would imagine so.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

A last post on the topic of prayer for ruling authorities during the services -especially Liturgy.

I contacted a fellow Orthodox priest who is very knowledgable in the history of the Liturgy. He says that certainly the Emperor was comemorated some time after Constantine but we do not have any existing evidence one way or another about what was done before the Empire was officially Christian. He also adds that practice could have varied from place to place.

He also passed along the following:


"In the life of St. Gregory the Dialogist, we read that he prayed incessantly for the repose of the Roman tyrant Trajan. He had a vision that his prayer had been granted, but was warned not to ask the same for other evil persons."

I suppose that when it comes to praying for the ruling authority this account could be read in two different ways as to what to do!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anthony]

I thought this story was more about praying for departed pagans than the liturgical commemoration of living rulers. I read it in Dante - where Trajan is accordingly found in Paradise alongside David and Constantine &#40;Paradiso XX&#41; - and have always been curious whether it went back to the days of the Orthodox West.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Anthony wrote:


I thought this story was more about praying for departed pagans than the liturgical commemoration of living rulers.

Yes from the context it seems that way. So it does not really break the rule one often encounters of praying for the non-Orthodox (especially the Trajans of this world!) mainly in one's personal prayers. In fact this story seems to have the added point (again one hears this from time to time) that we must even be careul about who we pray for in our personal prayers. I have been told this about those like Lenin and so on. Why is this so? Does St Paul refer to the limitations of whom we should pray for? Is this perhaps because there is a way we can presume on God's mercy in an ungodly way? But there is also the fact that when we pray there is often an emotional connection we make to the one we pray for that can produce a feeling of moral equivalency no matter what the person did. If so this again brings us to the point that there is a teaching of the Church about prayer that we must not presume on God's mercy.

I wonder what others think. I mean this in the sense of how to explain this teaching of the Church.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ken McRae]

&#62;&#62; &#34;Does St Paul refer to the limitations of whom we should pray for? ... I wonder what others think. I mean this in the sense of how to explain this teaching of the Church.&#34; &#60;&#60; - Fr Raphael

Dear Father Raphael,

In 1 Timothy 2:1-4, St. Paul instructs us to offer up prayers for all men. This appears universal in its reach, extending even to those who sin presumptuously, I feel. And St. Peter 3:9 states that God desires all men to repent.

Now, those who accept the doctrine of election &#40;or divine predestination&#41; believe that both Sts. Peter and Paul are referring only to &#39;the elect&#39;; that is, those who were predestined from all eternity to be sanctified in Christ. Some say the decree of election was made arbitrarily, free from any contingency in man; and others say it&#39;s based on the Father&#39;s eternal fore-knowledge of all who would freely accept Christ, and all who would freely reject Him.

St. Peter says: &#34;Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ ... etc.&#34; &#40;1 Pet. 1:1-2&#41; In these words, he seems to imply that the elect were pre-determined on the basis of God&#39;s eternal fore-knowledge of the Spirit&#39;s sanctifying work in them.

Either way, if we accept that the number of the elect has been pre-determined and fixed from all eternity, for whatever reason, then it seems &#39;all&#39; persons refers only to the &#39;elect&#39;; and not literally to all persons, who ever lived. However, since we cannot discern or distinguish the elect from the reprobate, we must pray for all men without discrimination.

The divine light that shines forth in St. Isaac instructs us further to pray for all creatures, and to withhold not prayers for even fallen angels and the demonic hosts, that even they might receive mercy. And if we are to offer prayers for the demons, then why not the Lenins of the world as well?

in humility,
Theophilus

1 Timothy 2:1-4

&#34;1&#34;: I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

&#34;2&#34;: For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

&#34;3&#34;: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

&#34;4&#34;: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.





St. Gregory of Nyssa (http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/mercy.html)

1 - &#39;Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.&#39; Now I know that in many passages of the Divine Scripture holy men call the Divine Power merciful; as does David in the Psalms, Jonas in his prophecy, and the great Moses frequently in the Law. If, therefore, the term &#39;merciful&#39; is suited to God, what else does the Word invite you to become but God, since you ought to model yourself on the property of the Godhead? For if the Divinely inspired Scripture calls God merciful, and if the Divinity is truly blessed, then it should be clear how the following is to be understood. It means that if a man is merciful, he is deemed worthy of the Divine Beatitude, because he has attained to that which characterized the Divine Nature. &#40; On the Beatitudes &#41;

St. Isaac the Syrian (http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/mercy.html)

2 - And what is a merciful heart? It is the heart&#39;s burning for the sake of the entire creation, for men, for birds, for animals, for demons and for every created thing; and by the recollection and sight of them the eyes of a merciful man pour forth abundant tears. From the strong and vehement mercy which grips his heart and from his great compassion, his heart is humbled and he cannot bear to hear or see any injury or slight sorrow in creation.

For this reason he continually offers up tearful prayer, even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner he even prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns in his heart without measure in the likeness of God. &#40;St. Isaac The Syrian, Homily 81 - from &#34;The River of Fire&#34;, Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros&#41;

3 - Ever let mercy outweigh all else in you. Let our compassion be a mirror where we may see in ourselves that likeness and that true image which belong to the Divine nature and Divine essence. A heart hard and unmerciful will never be pure. &#40;Directions on Spiritual Training - Test 85. B #8 &#41;

&#40;Message edited by theophilus on 16 April, 2005&#41;

&#40;Message edited by theophilus on 16 April, 2005&#41;

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Theophilus,

Thank you for your consideration of this issue. I am not wondering though about the commandment we are given to pray for others. Rather I am wondering what is behind the contrary command not to pray for some that we sometimes encounter.

In any case I found the passage from Scripture I was trying to remember in the above post. It is from the Epistle of 1 John 5:16 "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this."

Now what is the sin leading to death? And as I was previously wondering- why are we not to pray for those who are in "the sin leading to death"?

Also in the above account from St Gregory Dialogos Pope of Rome- he was clearly told by God: "not to ask the same for other evil persons." I feel that these two injunctions are closely connected. And as I said above I have been personally warned by those much spiritually senior to myself to not pray for certain extremely evil people. So what is it that is wrong in this?

Hint: I take it that nobody even if they are evil can be harmed by our prayer-yes? If this is so then just by process of elimination it must have something to do with it being somehow harmful to US who are praying. But how?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ken McRae]

Sorry, Father, for the error. As it is my bad habit to edit my posts, I have revised my previous post several times, according to my prior misunderstanding of the question.

As for the mind of St. John, he seems to be referring to the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; which the Scripture says is neither forgiven in this life or the next. The precise nature of that sin is difficult to discern, but it might be that which is referred to in Hebrews:

&#34;For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.&#34; &#40;6:4-6&#41;

Perhaps there is some connection between what is related here in Heb. 6 and the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; in the sense of denying all His prior works in them before they forsook the Lord of Glory for the world. At any rate, as a Catholic, I&#39;ve been taught that the only sin which cannot be forgiven, &#40;in this or that life,&#41; is the one of final impenitence. This has often been a source of great consolation for me in the past, when tempted to doubt the Lord&#39;s willingness and readiness to forgive me.

At any rate, I can see no harm in asking God to convert the sinner from the error of his ways, no matter how wicked he or she might be. Praying for their conversion is an act of mercy on our part; and though I am willing to forsake my own thoughts on this, it does seem a little hard for me to believe God would be offended by such acts of mercy, offered up to Him, in Christ&#39;s holy name; who, himself, prayed for the forgivness of his own wicked and merciless killers.

Which is the greater sin? To murder the spotless Son of God, or to murder millions of sinners, who have deserved death by their countless sins, committed without shame in the face of God?

in humility,
Theophilus

&#40;Message edited by theophilus on 16 April, 2005&#41;

[Owen Jones]

The context of the passage on unforgivable sin is the Pharisaic lust for power over man, the misuse of the law to enslave man rather than set him free, to deny man the Holy Spirit, rather than to recognize the Goodness of the Spirit and rejoice. This is what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It is why the saints and ascetics are doubly hard on themselves and hold themselves to a higher standard of judgment than others.

[Ken McRae]

"I take it that nobody even if they are evil can be harmed by our prayer-yes? If this is so then just by process of elimination it must have something to do with it being somehow harmful to US who are praying. But how?" - Fr Raphael

Dear Father,

Prayer blessed by God is that which is offered up through Christ, in the strength and wisdom of the Spirit. Such prayer cannot harm us, I feel. On the other hand, prayer which is offered up in the strength of the flesh, and the wisdom of this world, is both defiled and spiritually harmful to us.

In this sense, if we insist upon seeking our own will in prayer, by praying for persons whom we wish to prayer for, rather than wait patiently upon the leading of the Spirit, for direction as to which persons we ought to pray for, then we both grieve and quench the Spirit, thus causing ourselves much spiritual harm, thereby.

Just some 'food' for thought.

in humility,
Theophilus

[Elias Young]

Owen:

This not seem to be the direct meaning given to the passage by St. John Chrys...though perhaps with some stretching one might be able somehow to interpolate your meaning back into his commentary.

St. John appears to be saying that unbelievers actually will not be forgiven blasphemy against the Holy Spirit..though all manner of sins were,
and shall be, forgiven them against Himself, that is, Christ, the Son of God. The nuances of this are lost in translation perhaps. To see St. John&#39;s opinion go to:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-10/npnf1-10-47.htm#P4093_1301968

...and if you can understand what he is saying more fully, please let me know. :-&#41;

elias

&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;
Owen Jones wrote:
The context of the passage on unforgivable sin is the Pharisaic lust for power over man, the misuse of the law to enslave man rather than set him free, to deny man the Holy Spirit, rather than to recognize the Goodness of the Spirit and rejoice. This is what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It is why the saints and ascetics are doubly hard on themselves and hold themselves to a higher standard of judgment than others.