St John (Maximovitch) of Shanghai and San Francisco

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Would anyone know if an English translation of the "Iliotropion" by St John Maximovitch is available? I have read an article on him which says this work is available on the net in Russian, but since I don't speak the language, I would appreciate if anyone knows if it's been translated.

ICXC
Byron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Byron,

I have not heard of the "Iliotropion" by St. John Maximovitch. Could you explain what this is?

Thanks.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eugene]

Dear Fr. Raphael and Byron,

Iliotropion is available in Russian here:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/russian/iliotropion.htm

This is a book by Archbishop St. John Maximovich, 17-sentury Rusiian saint and relative of modern saint St. John Maximovich of Shanghai. The book is about living in accordance with the will of God. I don't know if it is available in English, most likely is has not been translated.

In Christ,
Evgeny

[Eugene]

By the way, there is a wealth of exellent Orthodox literature in many languages on Bishop Alexander's pages:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/index.php

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Fr Raphael and Evgeny,

Here is where I came across the 'Iliotropion':

St John (Maximovitch) of Tobolsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_%28Maximovitch%29_of_Tobolsk)

It intrigued me that it is referred to as the standard Orthodox work on theodicy. As I have been wondering about the very issue of, to quote Evgeny, "living in accordance with the will of God" (see the thread "Doing God's Will" which I perhaps wrongly began in the 'specific texts' section, and which, perhaps as a result, doesn't seem to have taken off), I would be most interested in any English translations, though the article seems to imply that none such are yet available.

ICXC
Byron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Ah now I see what the mix up was about! There is the St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai & San Francisco that most of us know. And then there is his ancestor also called St.John Maximovitch- but of Tobol'sk. It is the latter who wrote the Iliotropion.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kusanagi]

The Royal Path to Salvation i believe its called.
About a girl called Stavrophile being taught the faith by an Angel of God it is a great book!:)

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Two and a half years on from my initial posting, I'm still wondering if this text is available in English!

In Christ
Byron

[Seda S.]

Dear Byron

Most probably, that book has not been translated into English yet. I have that book in my computer, but in Russian only. If someone agrees to translate it for you (who knows, maybe there is such a person), I am ready to send the Russian text.

With love,

S.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear all,

Two and a half years on from my initial posting, I'm still wondering if this text is available in English!

In Christ
Byron

The book The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord is available in English translation from Monastery Press (http://monasterypress.com/presstitles.html)(follow the link).

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

The book The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord is available in English translation from Monastery Press (http://monasterypress.com/presstitles.html)(follow the link).

In Christ- Fr Raphael


The Royal Path to Salvation i believe its called.
About a girl called Stavrophile being taught the faith by an Angel of God it is a great book!:)


Dear Father Raphael,
Your Blessings.

Is this book from the link the same one with the one Sigfrid describes, please?

Thank you.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Father Raphael,
Your Blessings.

Is this book from the link the same one with the one Sigfrid describes, please?

Thank you.

Dear Nina,

God bless.

Yes it is the same book. But in English it is called The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Aaron Taylor]

Dear Nina,

God bless.

Yes it is the same book. But in English it is called The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

But this book, The Royal Way of the Cross of Our Lord seems to be listed as a separate book from the Iliotropion on Bishop Alexander's site. So I don't think this answers the initial question!

aaron

[Aaron Taylor]

"Нравоучительное зерцало" (Чернигов. 1703 и 1707 г.).

"Алфавит святых" (Стихотворение. Чернигов. 1705. г.).

"Богородице Дево" (Тоже стихами. Чернигов, 1707 г.).

"Толкование на 50-й псалом," посланное в 1708 году с письмом к царю вместе с двумя предыдущими сочинениями.

"Размышление о молитве "Отче наш" (Стихами. Чернигов. 1709 г.).

"Осьмь Евангельских блаженств" (Сочинение обширное стихами. Чернигов. 1709 г.).

"Царский путь Креста" (Чернигов. 1709 г.).

"Богомыслие" (Чернигов. 1710-1711 г.).
"Илиотропион" (Чернигов. 1714 г).

It looks to me like The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord would be #7 here, while Iliotropion is #9.

aaron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

But this book, The Royal Way of the Cross of Our Lord seems to be listed as a separate book from the Iliotropion on Bishop Alexander's site. So I don't think this answers the initial question!

aaron

Sorry- what was the original question? :)

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

"Нравоучительное зерцало" (Чернигов. 1703 и 1707 г.).



"Алфавит святых" (Стихотворение. Чернигов. 1705. г.).

"Богородице Дево" (Тоже стихами. Чернигов, 1707 г.).

"Толкование на 50-й псалом," посланное в 1708 году с письмом к царю вместе с двумя предыдущими сочинениями.

"Размышление о молитве "Отче наш" (Стихами. Чернигов. 1709 г.).

"Осьмь Евангельских блаженств" (Сочинение обширное стихами. Чернигов. 1709 г.).

"Царский путь Креста" (Чернигов. 1709 г.).

"Богомыслие" (Чернигов. 1710-1711 г.).
"Илиотропион" (Чернигов. 1714 г).It looks to me like The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord would be #7 here, while Iliotropion is #9.

aaron

The title though as it is rendered in English translates almost literally #8. I'll see if I can find out more about this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I just took a look at the Introduction to the edition of The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord leading to Eternal Life which was published in English by Monastery Press in Wildwood, Canada in 2002.

It says that the original appeared in 1709 by Archbishop John Maximovitch of Chernigov. In the 1870s however for various reasons the original was re-written by Optina Skete.

The edition I refer to is from this later edition from Optina.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Aaron Taylor]

Sorry- what was the original question? :)

In Christ- Fr Raphael


The original question was whether there was an English translation of Iliotropion. I was trying to point out that it looks to me like Iliotropion and The Royal Way are two different books. I'm no Russian expert, but I thought the title of #7 on this list looked like a literal equivalent of the English 'The Royal Way of the Cross', while #9 is simply a transliteration into Cyrillic of the Greek word we transliterate as 'Iliotropion'. I would have thought #8 meant something like 'Thoughts of God' or 'Divine Thoughts'. But I'm open to correction!

aaron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The original question was whether there was an English translation of Iliotropion. I was trying to point out that it looks to me like Iliotropion and The Royal Way are two different books. I'm no Russian expert, but I thought the title of #7 on this list looked like a literal equivalent of the English 'The Royal Way of the Cross', while #9 is simply a transliteration into Cyrillic of the Greek word we transliterate as 'Iliotropion'. I would have thought #8 meant something like 'Thoughts of God' or 'Divine Thoughts'. But I'm open to correction!

aaron

Sorry- of course you're right. #7 says "Royal Road of the Cross."

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Thank you all for being so helpful. It would seem odd to translate a book with such a characteristic title as "Iliotropion" (Greek: "Sunflower") as "Royal Road of the Cross" (also by St John of Tobolsk), even though this too is an impressive title, and stranger things have been known to happen with translations!

The link, graciously provided by Fr Raphael, with information about "Royal Road" also gives chapter sub-headings: http://monasterypress.com/wayofthecross.html. Perhaps Seda, who owns "Iliotropion" in Russian, can therefore confirm whether this is indeed the same book?

In Christ
Byron

[Seda S.]

Dear all,

“Iliotropion” was first written by St John in Latin for his students in the seminary. Later he himself translated it into Old Slavonic. I don’t remember when and who translated it into the Russian language. I found the complete book in one of the Russian Internet Libraries and copied it from there for myself, but later that book was removed from that site. There is also a very brief variant or adaptation of this book, under the title, “The Divine Providence”, the ZIP file of which one can find (again in Russian) in another Internet library (“www.wco.ru/biblio).

The complete book consists of 5 books or volumes. I’m giving now the titles of those books in English so that you may know thereabouts what that book is about (I apologize for my poor translation).

Iliotropion or
Conformity with the Divine Will


BOOK I - The Knowledge (“poznanie”) of the Will of God (5 chapters)

BOOK II - The Conformity of the Human Will with the Divine Will (5 chapters)

BOOK III - The Beneficial Fruits of the Implementation of the Will of God (6 chapters)

BOOK IV – The Removal of the Obstacles which Hinder from Conforming with the Will of God (6 chapters)

BOOK V – Means for the Conformity with the Divine Will (12 chapters)

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Seda,

Would you be able to provide the link for the specific page from the site that this came from? There are too many books on the site to find the one you're referring to. Then I could compare it with the book in English that I have.

Thanks.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Seda S.]

Dear Seda,

Would you be able to provide the link for the specific page from the site that this came from? There are too many books on the site to find the one you're referring to. Then I could compare it with the book in English that I have.

Thanks.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Dear Fr Raphael

That site doesn't give additional links. All the books are under the same address. So, you should go to the left panel (Àâòîð), choose the letter "È" and then find the book of John of Tobolsk.Èîàíí ÒîáîëüñêèéÑâÿòèòåëü Èîàíí Òîáîëüñêèé.Áîæåñòâåííûé Ïðîìûñë. (http://www.wco.ru/biblio/author09.htm#)

But, as I wrote in my previous post, this is not the complete book of "Iliotropion", the books (the titles) of which I have shown above. It is some new brochure, which comprises different parts of the "Iliotropion", added to each other by someone to make a new book on the Providence of God. So, this is not actually the "Iliotropion". If you want the real "Iliotropion", give me some e-mail address to which I could send the file with the complete "Iliotropion".

Asking for your prayers,

S.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I took a look at the online book by John of Tobolsk.

It's a different book than The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

A friend sent me this link about the Canonization of St. John of San Francisco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkZ9w5R7hyk) (writing that, feels so pleasant :) ).

Maybe many know about it but it was the first time for me to see. Therefore I thought to submit it for those like myself who have never seen it.

Ah. The commentary is in Greek (no subtitles) ... sorry.

[Father David Moser]

A friend sent me this link about the Canonization of St. John of San Francisco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkZ9w5R7hyk)

Very nice - I am certain that the video is taken from the commemorative tape that was made at the glorification (I think that the bookstore at Holy Virgin Cathedral may still have some available - and a re-release of a remastered version on dvd is in the works). I was looking, but could not find in the clips that were there, for both myself and Fr Averky who were present and serving at all the services.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

Very nice - I am certain that the video is taken from the commemorative tape that was made at the glorification (I think that the bookstore at Holy Virgin Cathedral may still have some available - and a re-release of a remastered version on dvd is in the works). I was looking, but could not find in the clips that were there, for both myself and Fr Averky who were present and serving at all the services.

Fr David Moser

Ooops... is this illegal? Posting it? I had no idea Father... but it is in Greek and I thought it was from a Greek TV channel, that might have been there filming it.

[Father David Moser]

Ooops... is this illegal? Posting it?

No, not at all.

I'm glad you found it, it was a very pleasant memory.

Fr David

[Nina]

No, not at all.

I'm glad you found it, it was a very pleasant memory.

Fr David

Memories? Oh, so you Father and Father Averky were there at the Canonization you meant????

I was so glad I received this link from my friend because the only things I have read about St. John of San Francisco were about miracles from him, in some Greek-American secular newspaper; and of course here on monachos what you all have said about the saint. I loved the pictures I saw in the newspaper, or here and he looks such a sweet saint but to be honest I did not know he was canonized :(. I always had the impression that he was still an elder to be canonized. But it felt so good to read from my friend's email the words St. John of San Francisco, and it felt so good to write and pronounce that; and learn that he is actually a Saint!

[Father David Moser]

Memories? Oh, so you Father and Father Averky were there at the Canonization you meant????

I was so glad I received this link from my friend because the only things I have read about St. John of San Francisco were about miracles from him, in some Greek-American secular newspaper; and of course here on monachos what you all have said about the saint. I loved the pictures I saw in the newspaper, or here and he looks such a sweet saint but to be honest I did not know he was canonized :(. I always had the impression that he was still an elder to be canonized. But it felt so good to read from my friend's email the words St. John of San Francisco, and it felt so good to write and pronounce that; and learn that he is actually a Saint!

without fail you should include SF on your next tour of the west so that you can venerate the relics of St John at Holy Virgin Cathedral.

Fr David

[Nina]

without fail you should include SF on your next tour of the west so that you can venerate the relics of St John at Holy Virgin Cathedral.

Fr David

Maybe I was not worthy, and have been so near him and had no idea he was there all the time... my eyes, ears were closed. Not that now they are opened, but you all here teach me so much. :) Thank you.

[Jonathan Michael]

Saint John of Shanghai and San Franciso is my patron saint. I asked for intercessions on behalf of a friend's health only two weeks ago and dear Vladika came through.

[Silouan Howard]

I had the joy of celebrating the liturgy at his relics. I would recommend a visit to Holy Virgin Cathedral, it was a wonderful experience. Especially if you can arrange to have a Moleben prayed for you with St. John's mantiya.

[Nina]

I had the joy of celebrating the liturgy at his relics. I would recommend a visit to Holy Virgin Cathedral, it was a wonderful experience. Especially if you can arrange to have a Moleben prayed for you with St. John's mantiya.

Thank you so much for this information!

The only problem is finding the time getting there, :) since from all what I have read on monachos have made me so fervently desire to venerate St. John of San Francisco.

I would love to have a Moleben as you advise. Do they do a Moleben if we are not from the Old Calendar? I am not very clear on this matter... sorry.

Also I read on a blog yesterday evening that St. John was considered some kind of a Fool for Christ. Is that true? That picture the person showed for illustration was amazing, but I am not sure if St. John was indeed a Fool for Christ. Can someone who has read more and knows more about St. John help me with input on this, please?

[Father David Moser]

I had the joy of celebrating the liturgy at his relics. I would recommend a visit to Holy Virgin Cathedral, it was a wonderful experience. Especially if you can arrange to have a Moleben prayed for you with St. John's mantiya.

FYI, the relics are at the new Holy Virgin Cathedral and the prayer with the mantia is something that Fr James at the old Holy Virgin Cathedral does. Two different places in SF that are closely associated with St John. A third place is St John's residence at St Tikhon's orphanage. The orphanage is no longer there (the building now houses the diocesan offices) but the chapel is still a working parish church and St John's cell is preserved as it was.

Fr David Moser

[Silouan Howard]

Yes, i didnt want to confuse those who didnt know there are two different cathedrals, but its good to bring it up. Thank You.

Nina..St. John was known for walking barefoot and even performing liturgies barefoot (which upset some people). One of my favorite stories about St. John was when he was preparing to have service for All Saints Day and nobody was showing up for service. St. John discovered that there was a Halloween party going on that many parishioners were at. So he left the church and went to the party, walked around quietly and left back to the church. Some were so convicted they left the party and went to church. Forgive me if my details are wrong..I havent read the book in a while.

Silouan


FYI, the relics are at the new Holy Virgin Cathedral and the prayer with the mantia is something that Fr James at the old Holy Virgin Cathedral does. Two different places in SF that are closely associated with St John. A third place is St John's residence at St Tikhon's orphanage. The orphanage is no longer there (the building now houses the diocesan offices) but the chapel is still a working parish church and St John's cell is preserved as it was.

Fr David Moser

[RichardWorthington]

Would anyone know if an English translation of the "Iliotropion" by St John Maximovitch is available? I have read an article on him which says this work is available on the net in Russian, but since I don't speak the language, I would appreciate if anyone knows if it's been translated.

ICXC
Byron


Dear Fr. Raphael and Byron,

Iliotropion is available in Russian here:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/russian/iliotropion.htm

This is a book by Archbishop St. John Maximovich, 17-sentury Rusiian saint and relative of modern saint St. John Maximovich of Shanghai. The book is about living in accordance with the will of God. I don't know if it is available in English, most likely is has not been translated.

In Christ,
Evgeny

I tried translating the page with yahoo babel fish, but it did not work.

Google produced something though, check this out:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fatheralexander.org%2 Fbooklets%2Frussian%2Filiotropion.htm&langpair=ru%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

However, it only seems to have translated a minor part - perhaps it has a limit on the number of words. It has translated the biographical part and the first few sentences of the actual book.

(Scroll down to see the translated text rather than using the hyperlinks.)

Hmmm ... I would not trust putting into action such a translation - it refers to St John Maximovitch as "Pope John Maximovitch"

Richard
PS Interesting, now I have refreshed the page quite a bit more of the translation has appeared ...

"Nothing in the world is not contrary to the will of God, or without His pandering" - God's pandering - how nice! And having studied Russian at school I think there is a double negative there, which in Russian is emphatic, rather than cancelling out.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Richard,

Nice try, but I'm afraid the google translation only whets my appetite to read the text in proper English! Learning Russian is another option of course, but I've heard it's a complex language!

Thanks anyway. Maybe someone will translate this someday, it seems a fine book.

In Christ
Byron

[Ken McRae]

It would seem odd to translate a book with such a characteristic title as "Iliotropion" (Greek: "Sunflower") as ...

Compare St. John's "Iliotropion" to the 'Heliotropium' (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KroCAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Heliotropium) of Fr. Jeremias Drexelius S.J., which was published a century earlier, in the early 17th century.

Heliotropium (The Sunflower) (https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/230/keywords/conformity+divine/)
Conformity of the the Human Will to the Divine

A 17th century classic, by Fr. Jeremias Drexelius, on uniformity with God's Holy Will. Best book on the subject. Written for all. Uniformity with God's will is the easiest way to achieve peace of heart and happiness in this world. How to recognize God's will for us. Great! 414 pgs, PB

[Ken McRae]

The complete book consists of 5 books or volumes. I’m giving now the titles of those books in English so that you may know thereabouts what that book is about (I apologize for my poor translation).

Iliotropion or Conformity with the Divine Will
BOOK I - The Knowledge (“poznanie”) of the Will of God (5 chapters)
BOOK II - The Conformity of the Human Will with the Divine Will (5 chapters)
BOOK III - The Beneficial Fruits of the Implementation of the Will of God (6 chapters)
BOOK IV – The Removal of the Obstacles which Hinder from Conforming with the Will of God (6 chapters)
BOOK V – Means for the Conformity with the Divine Will (12 chapters)

Compare the above book sub-divisions/subtitles to those of the 'Heliotropium' (The Sunflower) (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KroCAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Heliotropium) by Fr. Jeremias Drexelius:-

Book 1 - Concerning the Recognition of the Divine Will
Book 2 - Concerning the Conformity of the Human Will to the Divine
Book 3 - Concerning the Benefits Arising from the Conformity of the Human Will to the Divine
Book 4 - Concerning the Hindrances to Conformity of the Human Will with the Divine
Book 5 - Concerning the Aids in Conforming the Human Will to the Divine

The full text of the 19th century edition of Fr. Jeremias' book is in the Google book archive, at the above link.

[Seda S.]

Compare the above book sub-divisions/subtitles to those of the 'Heliotropium' (The Sunflower) (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KroCAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Heliotropium) by Fr. Jeremias Drexelius:-

Book 1 - Concerning the Recognition of the Divine Will
Book 2 - Concerning the Conformity of the Human Will to the Divine
Book 3 - Concerning the Benefits Arising from the Conformity of the Human Will to the Divine
Book 4 - Concerning the Hindrances to Conformity of the Human Will with the Divine
Book 5 - Concerning the Aids in Conforming the Human Will to the Divine

The full text of the 19th century edition of Fr. Jeremias' book is in the Google book archive, at the above link.

Dear Ken

Thank you for your discovery. That's great! The books are the same, of course, just edited here and there by St John of Tobolsk. But it is interesting, that St John could freely omit the words of Aquinas and A'Kempis in his translation, but he didn't do that.

This is another case when a Latin book is translated with some changes into another language, and the name of the real author is changed. The same very old story. Those who were considered as heretics would become orthodox by some simple change of name only: Evagrius would become St Nilus or St Gregory the Theologian, some Arian or Apollinarian would become St Athanasius etc. And though this is not honest at all, but one can understand why this would happen: to provide the believers with some soul-profiting rational food, while not confusing their minds.

Thank you! I'm glad to know who the real author of that wonderful book is.

In Christ,
S.

[Ken McRae]

Thank you for your discovery. That's great!

Since I cannot read Russian, S., I could never have made the connection without your translation assistance! I thought your English rendering was rather good. Thank you!

We should thank St. John of Tobolsk, however, who has doubtless prayed that the truth would finally come to light, and be made known, concerning the true identity of the book's author. But most of all, we ought to thank and glorify God, apart from Whom this discovery would never have come to pass.


The books are the same, of course, just edited here and there by St John of Tobolsk.

Could you please tell us, S., if the online Russian edition indicates who its editor was and in which year it was published? And also whether or not it provides a brief publication history of the Iliotropion, during the 19th century? I would like to know, specifically, whether or not the Optina publishing house had any involvement in the oversight of its translation and editing, the way it did with The Royal Way of the Cross?

Seeing that the Iliotropion is, as Byron notes, "the standard Orthodox work on theodicy," one wonders why it would not have been subjected to the same critical standard (and fate) as St. John's Royal Way of the Cross, in terms of the latter's being "re-written," to suite or appease the neo-Patristic sensibilities of late 19th century Russia?


But it is interesting, that St John could freely omit the words of Aquinas and A'Kempis in his translation, but he didn't do that.

Yes, that is a very interesting observation, to be sure, especially in light of the fact that the 2002 English edition of The Royal Way of the Cross contains no documented quotations from any post-schism Western authors; and that despite the fact of its being is so heavily studed, throughout, with quote after quote from the pre-schism Western fathers; and that despite the fact that St. John obviously studied post-schism Catholic authors, such as Drexelius, for example, and deliberately chose not strike their words and names from the Iliotropion.

It seems highly probable that St. John's inspiration for The Royal Way of the Cross came by way of the works of a'Kempis and Fenelon; as there is a chapter by that very same title (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/kempis/imitation.TWO.12.html) in The Imitation of Christ, and one of Fenelon's most popular books goes by the very same title: The Royal Way of the Cross (http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Way-Cross-Christian-Classic/dp/0941478009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244921456&sr=1-1)

The ten thousand dollar question, then, is why are there no documented references, in the English edition of St. John's Royal Way of the Cross, to a'Kempis and Fenelon? Such a curious fact is likely more attributable, in my humble opinion, to the influence of the Optina editors, who re-wrote and published the book in 1877; rather than to the actual decision and work of St. John himself.


This is another case when a Latin book is translated with some changes into another language, and the name of the real author is changed. The same very old story. Those who were considered as heretics would become orthodox by some simple change of name only: Evagrius would become St Nilus or St Gregory the Theologian, some Arian or Apollinarian would become St Athanasius etc. And though this is not honest at all, but one can understand why this would happen: to provide the believers with some soul-profiting rational food, while not confusing their minds.

What about St. Isaac the Syrian? Were there not instances in the manuscript history of his Homilies where they went under a different name? My memory vaguely recalls that they did, but I would need to double check that one. However, what about the corpus of writings attributed to St. Dionysius the Areopagite?

Are there any Orthodox "scholars" left who still attribute them to the Dionysius of the New Testament? Could the Christological controversies at the time of their appearance have had anything to do with the author's decision to send them forth into the world under the name of that Dionysius the Areopagite, of whom the Holy Scripture speaks?

Concerning the Iliotropion, however, I would like, indeed, to be able to compare the Russian edition against the first English translation (in 1862,) from the original Latin edition, to see precisely what changes St. John made to it, and where. There is a point of change beyond which the work can no longer be justifiiably attributed to its original author; but is, for all intents and purposes, a 'new' and different book; and that is when it no longer bears any close resemblance to its original! However, that does not appear to be the case with the Iliotropion, from the look of it.


Here is where I came across the 'Iliotropion': St John (Maximovitch) of Tobolsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_%28Maximovitch%29_of_Tobolsk) It intrigued me that it is referred to as the standard Orthodox work on theodicy.

Thanks to Byron for posting this source. Now, the Wikipedia says that St. John's "most famous work, which is still the standard work on Theodicy among the Eastern Orthodox, is "Iliotropion", which he wrote in Latin, translated into Slavonic and then into Russian." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_%28Maximovitch%29_of_Tobolsk) But does this now appear like an accurate claim? Is such a claim in accord with the information published in the online Russian edition? Is there an actual Latin copy of this book, with St. John's name on the title page, identifying him as the book's author? Did he actually translate the work into Russian himself?

The Introduction to the 2002 English edition of The Royal Way of the Cross says that St. John first published that book (on the Cross) in "a part-Slavonic and part-Ukranian dialect," and that it was not translated into Russian until the 1830's. Based on that information, it seems almost certain that St. John translated (and edited) the Drexelius "Iliotropion" into the same language as that in which The Royal Way of the Cross was first published; that is, into "a part-Slavonic and part-Ukranian dialect;" and it also seems equally doubtful that St. John translated the "Iliotropion" into Russian.


The full text of the 19th century edition of Fr. Jeremias' book is in the Google book archive, at the above link.

Fr. Jeremias Drexelius is widely esteemed as "the most distinguished ascetical writer of seventeenth century Germany." Here is a link to the 1917 Edition (http://www.archive.org/details/heliotropiumturn00drex) of The Heliotropium, which was based on the earlier 1862 English edition. However, the latter edition was re-edited and published in a more modernized font style. For those with an appetite for more Drexelius, however, there are also his Nine Considerations on Eternity (http://books.google.ca/books?id=C_4CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR10&dq=Drexelius&lr=#PPR3,M1), and some Select Spiritual Readings (http://books.google.ca/books?id=btMHAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Drexelius#PPR3,M1) on patience, diligence, prudence, heavenly desires, and holy reading; both of which are also part of the Google archive.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Many thanks to Ken McRae and Seda, for this interesting and informative research.

In Christ

Byron

[Seda S.]

Could you please tell us, S., if the online Russian edition indicates who its editor was and in which year it was published? And also whether or not it provides a brief publication history of the Iliotropion, during the 19th century? I would like to know, specifically, whether or not the Optina publishing house had any involvement in the oversight of its translation and editing, the way it did with The Royal Way of the Cross?



This is my information about the different publications of 'Iliotropion'. It was first published in 1714 in Chernigov (St John died in 1715). Its Russian translation was published in Kiev, in 1908. But in the electronic copy that I downloaded from the Internet the date of the preface is 1888 (???). There is also some abridged version of that book in Russian, first published in St Petersbourg in 1916, and republished in 1996 in Saratov. So nowhere I found the name of Optina.

Good news! I looked now in the Russian Wikipedia. They have changed that part which is about 'Iliotropion'. Now they have written that St John translated the book of Jeremias Drexelius. This was not so some time ago. So this is a new change in the Wikipedia. Thanks God. While in the website of the Diocese of Tobolsk it is still written that St John wrote the 'Iliotropion'.

I tried to compare the last chapters of the Russian text with the corresponding chapters of the English translation of the book by Drexelius. I saw that St John omitted some examples in those chapters, but, strangely, had other examples that I didn't find in the corresponding chapters of the English book. This is strange, I say, because those examples of St John are also 'western'. They are, for example, from the life of some British king, or some legend about 'fortuna'. So I thought, is it possible that the book by Drexelius had different versions in Latin???

As for Isaac of Syria and Dionysius of Areopagite, I don't think I know more than you :).

In Christ,
Seda

[Ken McRae]

This is my information about the different publications of 'Iliotropion'. It was first published in 1714 in Chernigov (St John died in 1715). Its Russian translation was published in Kiev, in 1908. But in the electronic copy that I downloaded from the Internet the date of the preface is 1888 (???). There is also some abridged version of that book in Russian, first published in St Petersbourg in 1916, and republished in 1996 in Saratov. So nowhere I found the name of Optina.

It is as a I suspected, then, and the fact that the text did not come under the scrutiny of the Optina editorial committee would seem to explain why it was not "re-written", like The Royal Way of the Cross was, but managed to remain in tact, and virtually unscathed; or as St. John prepared it himself for re-publication, apart from the obvious fact of its having been translated into Russian by another hand.


Good news! I looked now in the Russian Wikipedia. They have changed that part which is about 'Iliotropion'. Now they have written that St John translated the book of Jeremias Drexelius. This was not so some time ago. So this is a new change in the Wikipedia. Thanks God. While in the website of the Diocese of Tobolsk it is still written that St John wrote the 'Iliotropion'.

I suspect the Tobolsk Diocese will take a little time to make the change, as it (they) will likely assign someone to thoroughly examine or research the matter and submit a report or recommendation to approve the change, thus making it 'official'.


I tried to compare the last chapters of the Russian text with the corresponding chapters of the English translation of the book by Drexelius. I saw that St John omitted some examples in those chapters, but, strangely, had other examples that I didn't find in the corresponding chapters of the English book. This is strange, I say, because those examples of St John are also 'western'. They are, for example, from the life of some British king, or some legend about 'fortuna'. So I thought, is it possible that the book by Drexelius had different versions in Latin???

Many thanks, Seda, for your kind assistance with this. How to account for the discrepancy is difficult, to be sure, but I suspect you are correct in tracing the problem back to a variant Latin manuscript tradition. These kind of manuscript discrepancies are very common and usually the result of any number of possible reasons or causes.

Btw, just for the record, the 1862 Edition's Table of Contents, (in the Google Archive,) is incomplete. There are a total of eleven chapters in Book 5, only seven of which appear in the Table of Contents.


As for Isaac of Syria and Dionysius of Areopagite, I don't think I know more than you :).

Such questions are rather tangential, of course, but I am looking into the manuscript tradition of St. Isaac's Ascetical Homilies, and will post my findings later in an existing thread on St. Isaac; but as it stands now, I am inclined to think I was mistaken about his Homilies passing at times under a different name; though I am still looking into this question so as to understand the matter better, and the reason(s) for my initial impression(s).

[Seda S.]

Btw, just for the record, the 1862 Edition's Table of Contents, (in the Google Archive,) is incomplete. There are a total of eleven chapters in Book 5, only seven of which appear in the Table of Contents.



Yes, I noticed that myself, that's why I decided to compare the last chapters of the book. The text in English has 11 chapters in the last book, and the Russian text has 12, the 12th is some kind of conclusion of all of what had been written in the previous books. As for the first 4 books, they have the same number of chapters both in English and Russian versions.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Sorry that I haven't been able to follow this discussion- so I might have missed something.

But has it been mentioned that The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord Leading to Eternal Life (Monastery Press, 2002) is an edited version of the earlier The Royal Way pictured above? This later edited version was put together by Fr Clement Sederholm of Optina Monastery.

What the version was that Staretz Ambrose of Optina is often referred to as suggesting to others as edifying reading is a good question.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ken McRae]

But has it been mentioned that The Royal Way of the Cross of our Lord Leading to Eternal Life (Monastery Press, 2002) is an edited version of the earlier The Royal Way pictured above? This later edited version was put together by Fr Clement Sederholm of Optina Monastery.

What the version was that Staretz Ambrose of Optina is often referred to as suggesting to others as edifying reading is a good question.

Fr Raphael,

You did mention that earlier in the thread. It is likely St. Ambrose was referring to one of the earlier translations, made during the 1830's and 1840's; all of which were later rejected by Optina for republication in the later half of the 1870's. The 2002 English translation lacks very important information concerning all such questions of like nature and importance.

It contains no Preface by the English translator, for example, which is a most grievous oversight, in my opinion. The translator of any book of this magnitude or historical significance is obliged to answer several important questions, not least of which concerning the translation's fidelity to the original; but as the work stands now, it is virtually impossible for the English reader to know if anything has been changed or omitted from the 1877 edition.

Secondly, the book contains a one page Introduction from April 23, 1877, but it's not even a full page at that! It is more like a small Preface than a real Introduction. If that's the original 1877 Introduction in its entirety, then it is a poor excuse for one, as it approaches nothing like a full and proper Introduction. While it does broach a few important issues concerning the book, it completely evades any detailed discussion of them.

But the most grievous oversight of them all, perhaps, is the exclusion of St. John's own Preface and Introduction to the book. Who ever heard of an author publishing his book without a Preface, at the very least? In the early 18th century, it was the custom to dedicate books to a noble patron or personage; and such dedications usually contained some important information about the book; which should have been duly noticed by the translator, or a Russian historian, in a full-length Introduction to the book.

To publish an author's book without his original Preface and Introduction is almost an insult to the author. It's like building a house without a front porch; or even a front entrance leading into the main body of the work. It is very odd, to say the least, and is something that should have been addressed or explained for by the publisher of the book. While I am obviously delighted to have the book, I am very disappointed, on the other hand, by the fact that the first English translation was not a 'critical' edition.

[Father David Moser]

An aside to those who are interested particularly in St John of Shanghai and SF:


[June 21, 2009] In 2009 the Orthodox Church marks the 15th anniversary of the glorification of St. John, the Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco. This year St. John's feastday will be celebrated on Saturday, July 4 (closest Saturday to July 2). The schedule of the solemn celebration of the 15th canonization anniversary at the Holy Virgin "Joy of All Who Sorrow" Cathedral in San Francisco, where St. John's relics are, is as follows:

Thursday, July 2
At 7:30 pm, following the daily Vespers and Matins (6:00 pm), St. John's relics will be transferred to the middle of the cathedral and an Akathist to St. John will be chanted before them.

Friday, July 3
Confessions will be heard beginning at 5:00 pm. All-Night Vigil at 6:00 pm. Clergy form Local Orthodox Churches will concelebrate.

Saturday, July 4
Greeting of Archbishop KYRILL of San Francisco and Western America and the Divine Liturgy at 9:00 am. After the Liturgy a Service of Intercession to St. John (Molieben) and procession. Festal luncheon for clergy and faithful in the cathedral fellowship hall.

[Nina]

An aside to those who are interested particularly in St John of Shanghai and SF:

Thank God we have this beloved Saint!