A western book

[Marty Zyph]

A friend of mine gave me a catholic book to read entitled “the soul of the apostolate”. She (my friend) knows that I am interested in orthodoxy, and I think we share some commonality in terms of this attraction.

I am hesitant to share with her my objections or rather skepticisms about certain things Roman and I wonder about such books and what of them is orthodox and what is not…still I’ve started reading this book and have found it very hard to put down.

At one point in the book it says that if a person were to devote 15 min per day to mental prayer he would be converted, and that if he persists in prayer, his salvation would be assured. It talks about the necessity of the inner life with prayer and God as its principle fundamental to the active life. This sounds orthodox to me, or at least my conscience makes no objection and I even feel a certain joy…

Is there something similar to the Jesus prayer in the West?

[Myles A. Bailey]

Dear Marty as a Latin I will answer your question. Please do not let my Romanity cloud your perecption of me I intend only to give an honest answer.

In the West there are a variety of different methods of mental prayer some of which are just closing your eyes placing yourself in the presence of God and having a little chat. Others focus upon imaginitive methods of meditation, that is, picturing a scene in the mind usually of scripture and trying to absorb the scene and its implications e.g. 'Ignatian prayer' is typical of this 'style' (http://www.hfph.mwn.de/~chwolf/HOWTO_ignatian_prayer_en.pdf)

There is also lectio divinia (which I'd guess the Orthodox the Orthodox use as well?) wherein the Bible is read until one feels 'moved' by a certain line or phrase at which point one reads that phrase over and over until it causes an interior understanding/change of disposition in the believer. This is different than ignatian prayer in which it is not imaginitve, the believer does not aim to picture anything and the whole meditation might even rest on a single word like 'Jesus' or 'secret' or 'look'. This sounds more like the attitude of the East wherein the Jesus prayer can even be reduced merely to 'Jesus' and repeated slowly and thoughtfully under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

However, I'd say if anything the Western ejaculatory prayers short one line phrases e.g. 'Jesus, Jesus, always be Jesus to me' which are to be repeated over and over again in the mind are the closest thing the West has to the Jesus prayer apart. (Although John Paul II called the Western prayer of the heart 'the Rosary' which I believe is true enough given that the Rosary can include all the methods spoken of above).

Ultimately the goal of all these methods is the same: to begin under the guidance of God to pray until He completely takes over and places within the soul the interior disposition of prayer, which in the West is called infused contemplation.

Sadly though all of these forms of prayer, which were very popular in times past seem to have become quite unpopular in the late 20th century. However, if your friend is practicing mental prayer its likely that she knows one of them and diligently practices it. Good stuff.

God love you
Myles

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

the book it says that if a person were to devote 15 min per day to mental prayer he would be converted, and that if he persists in prayer, his salvation would be assured


Please do not let my Romanity cloud your perecption of me I intend only to give an honest answer…'Ignatian prayer' is typical of this 'style'…There is also lectio divinia…to begin under the guidance of God to pray until He completely takes over and places within the soul the interior disposition of prayer, which in the West is called infused contemplation

Dear Marty Zyph, Myles A. Bailey and friends,

I am afraid that the latin tradition, which I respect as honest trial to pray, has nothing to do with the Orthodox tradition.

Here is how The Orthodox tradition as it expressed by St Symeon the New Theologian, in his text "The Three Ways of Attention and Prayer" (http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/symeon_threeways.html)

According to Orthodox tradition, both the "Ignatian prayer" and the "lectio divinia" methods are rejected ! And then a third way is presented as the genuine orthodox prayer method:

"The beginning of the third way is not by looking up to the sky, raising the hands, having your mind in heaven and asking for help from there. As we have said, these are of the first way and they are false. Nor is it to guard the senses with the mind and concentrate exclusively on this, whilst neither being attentive nor seeing the inner wars of the soul conducted by the enemies. These are all of the second way. He who uses them is trapped by the demons and is unable to revenge those who trapped him, whilst the enemies are always fighting him both secretly and openly, making him proud and vain.

But you, my friend, if you seek your salvation you should start in this way: after the perfect obedience which we said you should have to your spiritual father, you should then conduct all your deeds with a clear conscience, as if you had God in front of you, for conscience can never be clear without obedience. You should keep your conscience clear towards these things: God, spiritual father, other people and earthly things. Towards God, it is an obligation to keep your conscience clear by avoiding the things you are aware that He neither likes nor give Him any joy. Towards your spiritual father you should do the things he orders you to do, doing nothing more and nothing less, living according to his plan and wish. As for the other people, you should keep your conscience clear by not doing to them any of the things you hate and do not wish them to do to you. Towards the earthly it is your obligation to restrain yourself from abuses, using them all appropriately, food as well as drinking and clothes. In short, you should do everything as if you had God in front of you, making sure that your conscience does not restrain nor condemn you for not doing something right. This is the beginning of the true and firm route of the third way of attention and prayer"

So the orthodox tradition about the method of true prayer is only one:obedience! Prayer start and ends in one method, that is, obedience.

And there is an explanation for this:

"As we have repeatedly said, the first and the second way do not bring any spiritual advancement. When we want to build a house, we do not make the roof first and then lay the foundation--for this is impossible!--but we firstly lay the foundation, then build the house and then add the roof. We should do the same in spiritual matters: first lay the foundation, which is to guard the heart and cast out its weaknesses; then build the spiritual house, which is to cast out the evil spirits fighting us through our senses; finally, having overcome the war as soon as possible, add the roof, which is to depart from all things earthly, and give ourselves completely to God. Thus we complete our spiritual house in Christ our God, to whom all glory is due, unto the ages of ages. Amen.-"

According to Orthodox tradition, prayer needs purification of the heart, through obedience.

The above link which presents the Orthodox tradition of praying is revealing: praying needs a clean heart, that is acquired through asceticism via obedience.

May God bless us, all.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Please see my recent post in another thread a[/URL]bout the focus of this forum as not suited to comparisons of 'Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism', etc., unless these discussions are specifically on patristic/monastic themes that fall under the purview of the board. The full [URL="http://www.monachos.net/other/mb_tos.shtml"]Discussion Community Terms of Use (http://www.monachos.net/cgi-bin/mb/show.cgi?tpc=6555&post=16349#POST16349) are available at all times as a link on the left-hand side of community pages.

Part of the reason for this guideline is so that Monachos.net's discussion community retains its specific focus and flavour (as there are a great many such forums elsewhere that deal in interfaith/interdenominational questions, and the Orthodoxy/RC relationship in particular); but also because this forum strives to be an avenue for educated and educational dialogue -- and discussions on issues surrounding the relationship of churches often turn quickly into rather uninformed, generalising and sweeping expressions of individuals' personal views and beliefs, rather than authentic examinations of situations. Suffice it to say there is evidence of this already in the present thread, with inaccurate generalisations and uninformed black-and-white characterisations of various views and relationships. It's time to cut this thread short before it descends further in this direction

With thanks, INXC, Matthew

[Marty Zyph]

I apologize for the question and my ignorance. I hastily assumed the question would be appropriate in the casual and personal conversation section.