Reasons for purgatory (Catholic phenomenon?)

[Mina Monir]

I always wonder , someone after more than 1200 years of the apostolic era begins a doctrine ?

is it the indiviual papacy? or any thing else?

Purgatory is one of the deepest catholic doctrines , I read about it ... and there was an official dialogue between alexandria and rome ... but they still defending for that belief after giving them many papers and researches deny it. could anyone tell me more about purgatory and if there is text or resources or patristic writings in english discusses this idea?
also, why? ... this is my question ... why?

[Patrick Walsh]

It is my understading that the doctrine of purgatory was a child of another error made by the Roman church. There is a passage in the Gospels where Christ lists certain sins as being a cause for death, and omits other sins. These have been called the seven cardinal sins in Roman doctrine, and they are considered mortal sins. Any other sin not listed is considered to be venial sin.

This is contrary to what St. Paul says about sin, that is, that "the wages of sin is death." St. Paul does not divide the sins into mortal sins and venial sins. He simply says "sin" in general. It is my understanding that this is the Orthodox position, and that the list Christ gave was not intended to separate the sins into two categories, but simply to give an adequate number of examples of sin so that people had a clear understanding of what sin was, from a mechanical point of view. Ultimately, sin is the rejection of God's love, and rejecting God's love is the reason we die when we sin, because it is God's love which nourishes our spirit.

The Roman dogma says one will go to hell for any mortal sin, but not for a venial sin. In the Roman Church it is necessary to confess mortal sins and receive absolution from them, but not for venial sins. The problem in their theology then becomes apparent. We cannot enter into heaven in a sinful state, so what happens to the venial sins. Their solution was to use some conveniently vague verses to create the doctrine of Purgatory. Purgatory served as the middle ground between heaven and hell where one suffered greatly for one's venial sins, but avoided eternal condemnation. Once God had decided you had suffered long enough in purgatory, you would then attain salvation and eternal life in heaven.

This doctrine created several cottage doctrines (to borrow the term "cottage industries"), the most important of which are indulgences. One could ask the Pope in Rome to grant an indulgence, and this would shorten your time in purgatory. In the Roman doctrine, indulgences were only applicable to venial sins. They would not protect you from the consequences of mortal sins.

One did not even need to confess the sin to receive the indulgence. This doctrine was exploited by Popes such as Pope Julian to finance his military campaigns to recover the Papal States from France, and to build St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. It led Martin Luther to post his 95 theses which condemned the practice of selling indulgences for money. His theses, ironically, sought to defend the Sacrament of Confession from this heinous practice, ironic because Luther abandoned this sacrament entirely when he creates his break-away church.

It is easy to look at the fruits of the Roman errors, how one error spawns another error and so on.

I hope this helps in a broad sense. Much of this is discussed in Father John Romanides books on the Catholic Church of Rome--the non-Apostolic Church.

Patrick

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mr Monir and Mr Walsh,

While I am not an expert on the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory per se, in its specific historical development, it does seem to me that the manifestation most often used to characterise it is rather late in arriving on the seen. Earlier comments on the period after death but before the final judgement resonate more strongly with the view of the Orthodox Church: namely, that the fullness of heaven and hell are realities that only begin upon the final judgement in the eschaton, thus that the period between death and that final, universal judgement is something else -- but that this period is related to the manner of life that one lived, such that it is a foretaste of either kingdom (as witnessed in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man). What began the differentiation between Eastern and Western 'views' on this period was the specific issue from which the Roman Catholic doctrine takes its name: purgation, or the nature of this period as a manner of 'cleansing by fire' and purging of past errors -- which then follows on to the manner of thing Mr Walsh was talking about above.

INXC, Matthew

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

why? ... this is my question ... why?

"What is the source of the Latins' teaching about the purifying fire" (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.05.htm#pu3) by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos.

In the same web page you can find a complete analysis of the subject.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I'm also no expert on Roman Catholic doctrine. But my strong impression is that such doctrines are based on the gradual drift in the west towards a dialectical (relation of opposition) understanding of the relationship between the created and Uncreated. It is within this gradually developing new mental framework that the west reinterprets God's providence & what salvation means. In this sense purgatory would be a way of compensating for the inherent weakness of creation rather than as a means of deification as we know it.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mina Monir]

dear Patrick Walsh ,

thanks for your fruitful brief message , I think it is important for me , and I will record it in a notepad file. infact, you mentioned a very important and sensitive point : "One did not even need to confess the sin to receive the indulgence. This doctrine was exploited by Popes such as Pope Julian to finance his military campaigns to recover the Papal States from France, and to build St. Peter's Basilica in Rome." and that is the reason for purgatory as I believe. after finishing the dialogue between alexandria and rome in 1993 about purgatory with zero result, HH pope Shenouda III wrote a very nice book "we do we reject purgatory" unfortunatly, I don't have an english translation for it. but I can remember a very insensitive practise in the roman church mentioened by anba Shebouda III , romans -like max plank in the theory of Quantization of energy- use a time unit in the purgatory which is day, there are indulgences for a number of days. for example : it is stated in the daily prayer book of fransiscan that if you say (in the name of of the father and the son and the holy spirit ) you will have 50 days indulgences . indulgences of 7 years in purgatory if you do the act of faith and love , these acts are 3 to four lines of pray. indulgence of 300 days for saying : heart of jesus the holy (Le Sacre Ceure)....in the book of (prayers of jesus's heart lovers published by fransiscan in 1956) : indulgence of 9 years for every step on your knees of the ladder of the basillica of rome ... pope shenouda says : 'they are 28 steps . so, you will have 252 years indulgences in purgatory... why? "http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

for slavation I know that ( the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.)(1 john 1:7) and If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.(1 john 1:9)

brother patrick mentioned that in the catholic belief , there is a classification of sins , mortal and venial, I read about that, but there is not biblical support for this , there is not OFFICIAL declaration concerns that point in the holy apostolic Catholic church before schisms. in contrary , saint James the apostle says : But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.For whosoever shall keep the whole law, <u>and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all</u>.For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. I think when I read it yesterday , I remembered that topic, and I hope I didn't say something non-orthodox and will be delighted to have corrections from you(all) and thanks. note: patrick, can I get the fthr.John romanides book about catholic church you mentioned?

yours in christ,
Mina

[Mina Monir]

"It is easy to look at the fruits of the Roman errors, how one error spawns another error and so on. " it is written by brother Patrick.

this reminds me of the Einstein's interpretation of the splitting of atoms in the splitting reaction which has an end : the Atomic bomb!

and the atomic bomb here is the salvation of non-believers as in the second vatican council. but this is another story... to be continued!

[Jonathan Tallon]

I am not RC, so hesitate to speak concerning this doctrine. However, I assume that the biblical foundation lies in their interpretation of, amongst other verses, 1 Corinthians 3.13-15, where Paul ends by saying &#39;the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.&#39;

Purgatory &#40;whose root comes from the latin for fire&#41; is therefore not a place where you are sent to suffer &#40;which would make it a punishment&#41;, but a place you go to be purified &#40;same root word!&#41;.

The best defence of purgatory comes from CS Lewis, Letters to Malcolm, chapter 20:

Our sould demand purgatory, don&#39;t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, &#39;it is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no-one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you either. Enter into the joy&#39;? Should we not reply, &#39;With submission, Sir, and if there is no objection, I&#39;d rather be cleaned first.&#39; &#39;It may hurt, you know.&#39; - &#39;Even so, Sir&#39;.

This at least gives some idea to those who do not hold the doctrine of purgatory why others should consider it at all.

[Timothy Richardson]

In order to correct some of the mischaracterizations above of the Roman Catholic Doctrine of sin and purgatory I offer the following discussion taken from a paper I recently wrote on this subject. It is based on passages 1030, 1031, 1032, 1857, 1858, and 1863 from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, English Translation, Liguori Publications, 1994.

The Holy Apostle John in his first epistle distinguishes between mortal sins and “those that are not mortal.” &#40;1 John 5:16-17&#41; The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally designated these two types of sins as mortal and venial. A mortal sin is a complete willful turning away from God. It is grave sin, committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. There are degrees of mortal sin: i.e. murder is graver than theft. Venial sins, either committed willfully out of weakness or simply out of ignorance, damage our ability to love God and others. They reveal a disordered attachment to worldly things and impede our progress in the life of virtue, to which we are all called. Habitual or unrepentant venial sins dispose us to mortal sin. However, venial sins do not set us in direct opposition to the will of God. Even with the distinction between mortal and venial sins, it is important to understand that all sins are serious because they damage our relationships with God and neighbor. By these acts, we disobey the most important commandments of God. &#40;Mark 12:29-31&#41; If we turn away from God, either deliberately and with full knowledge &#40;mortal sin&#41; or out of weakness and habit &#40;venial sin&#41;, we cut ourselves off from His life-giving Holy Spirit.

If we die in God&#39;s grace we are assured of our eternal salvation, however, after death we undergo purification so that we may enter into His presence in a state of holiness. The Roman Catholic Church has given the name Purgatory to this final purification. It&#39;s scriptural basis lies in reference to a cleansing fire &#40;1 Cor. 3:15, 1 Pet. 1:7&#41; and the practice of praying for the departed &#40;2 Macc. 12:46&#41;. It is entirely different from the eternal punishment of those who deliberately turn away from God.

I would claim that the proceeding discussion provides a more balanced view of the current Roman Catholic position on these teachings and I invite someone who is familiar with the council of Florence and the writings of St. Mark of Ephesus to enlightened us with regard to the Orthodox position on this subject.

[Mina Monir]

in 1993 an official dialogue began between the Holy Orthodox church of Alexandria , and the roman catholic church. His Holiness Pope Shenouda III personally shared in the dialogue and Cardinal Walter Kasper represented the Catholic family . the dialogue end to nothing.
they could not prove anything about their hypothesis because we had a very solid Patristic defence . and a paper presented by His holiness called &#39;Why we Do Reject Purgatory&#39; was clear . Dear Timothy , I recommend that you read my previous post because it gives you some rays on the disastrous idea of purgatory which was used as a &#39;Carrot and Stick&#39; &#40;I don&#39;t know if you know this expression , we use it here&#41;
Purgatory as an invinted doctrine was useful to fill the boxes of treasure of the popes of rome ... indulgences and prayers and orders to visit cathedrals to decrease your days in purgatory CANNOT BE A DIVINE DOGMA! florence council defended for such dogma.
You Quoted : &#34;The Holy Apostle John in his first epistle distinguishes between mortal sins and “those that are not mortal.” &#40;1 John 5:16-17&#41; The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally designated these two types of sins as mortal and venial.&#34; John the apostle did not mean any sort of distinguish , this way of using verses seems like Sola Scriptura ... it is less than sola scriptura! James the apostle said it clear that there is not difference between any sin , does that mean there is a confusion?! nooooooooo . John means clearly that if u did not give a repentence for the committed sin , it will be Mortal ... and this makes sense with the other verses , Christ himself reffered to this point when he said : &#34; And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.math12:32&#34; if we take the interpretation as two types of sins then, we distinguish between the son of man and the holy spirit!! and if any one does ... let him be anathema! but the one speaks against the holy spirit means he refuses the gospel , so he cannot have salvation... this is logic. this makes sense to connect between it and James &#39; verse. Fathers refused that idea.
let me give this lecture here as text :
<font color="0000ff">Many are they who say of me, ‘there is no help for him in God.’” &#40;Ps 3:2&#41;2 Lecture VII: The Purgatory 2According to the Roman Catholic Church, purgatory &#40;Lat., ‘purgare’, to make clean, to purify&#41; is a place or a condition of temporal punishment for those who died in a state of grace yet are not entirely free from lesser faults or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The punishments in this alleged place is referred to as ‘purifying fire’ &#40;Lat., ‘purgatorius ignis’&#41; and from which the term ‘purgatory’ derives. The Roman Church teaches that the vast majority of believers is neither good enough for heaven nor bad enough for hell and thus is tormented in the purgatory to be purified and cleansed. The All Souls’ Day, in the Roman Church, is a day for commemoration of all the faithful departed, those baptized Christians who are believed to be suffering in purgatory because they have died with the guilt of lesser sins on their souls. It is celebrated on November 2, or on November 3 if November 2 is a Sunday. The Roman doctrine holds that the prayers of the faithful on earth will help ease the sufferings and help cleanse these souls in order to fit them for entering heaven. In what follows, we shall, by the grace of God, present the reasons why we reject the heresy of purgatory:1. The purgatory contradicts the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption:The basic foundation of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that human beings are totally incapable of satisfying the Divine Justice of God and thus God who is alone unlimited was Incarnate and provided us with unlimited atonement and forgiveness. The existence of a place of purifying sufferings for the believers implies that the blood of our Saviour was not enough to purify us in the first place.• “The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us fromall sin… If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” &#40;1 Jn 1:7-9&#41;• “He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him…” &#40;Heb 7:25&#41;If human sufferings were capable of satisfying the Divine Justice, then what was the need for Lord Jesus Christ’s Incarnation and death on the cross? Why didn’t God just increase the amount of suffering in purgatory or the period we spend there and then take us to heaven? Therefore, we totally reject any notion of satisfying the Divine justice through good works, asceticism, or punishments.• “ All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely By His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus…” &#40;Rom 3:24&#41;2. The purgatory contradicts the good news of the Holy Gospel:The angel said to the shepherds, “Do not be afraid, for I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” &#40;Lk 2:10,11&#41; – How are we supposed to rejoice if the Savior cannot save us from the torments and fire of the purgatory? How are we supposed to have a desire to depart and be with the Lord like St. Paul &#40;Phil 1:23&#41;while the flames of the purgatory are awaiting us? This explains the paranoiac question ‘Are you saved?’ of the Protestants who went out of the Roman Church. 3. The purgatory contradicts God’s Justice:St. Paul said that we “were bought at a price” &#40;1 Cor 6:20&#41;. – This price is the precious blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who said on the cross “It is finished” &#40;Jn 19:30&#41;. – The sufferings and torments in this alleged purgatory imply that the price of sins will be paid twice, which is in clear contradiction with the Divine Justice. Moreover, according to this doctrine, the purgatory is a place of torment of the spirits while the bodies are lying in the graves not feeling a thing. This also contradicts the Divine Justice because it implies punishing the spirit only and not the body that participated with it in committing the sin and may even have been the cause of it as “the flesh lusts against the Spirit” &#40;Gal 5:17&#41;. – Also, how will the allegedly purged spirit be united with an un-purged body on the Last day?
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2534. The purgatory contradicts God’s Mercy:David the Prophet said, “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” &#40;Ps 51:7&#41; He did not say ‘purge me with fire, burn me in purgatory and I shall be clean.’ Human nature is not purged with fire but rather with the grace of our merciful God and the work of His Holy spirit.Our Lord said, “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” &#40;Is 1:18&#41; – This will not occur through the tormenting flames of purgatory after departing from this world but rather through the work of the Holy Spirit in repentance during this present life.• “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.” &#40;Ezek 36:25&#41;Purging is an act of mercy and grace not of punishment, it takes place here on earth not after death, and it is through clean water not tormenting flames of fire!5. The purgatory contradicts God’s Promises:Through the precious blood of Lord Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in repentance, God forgives our sins and no longer remembers them:• “If a wicked man turns from all his sins … none of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him …” &#40;Ezek 18:21,22&#41;• “… Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” &#40;Col 2:14&#41;The purgatory implies that the spirits of the believers will have to suffer prior to going to heaven even though God has promised to forgive and forget their sins. Notice that in the parable of the creditor and the two debtors, which Lord Jesus Christ said to Simon the Pharisee, the creditor “freely forgave” both debtor; the one who owed five hundred denarii and the one who owed fifty because “they had nothing with which to repay” &#40;Lk 7:42&#41;6. The purgatory contradicts Holy Scriptures:The doctrine of purgatory does not possess any Scriptural basis but rather contradicts Holy Scriptures creating several theological problems:• Our Lord said to the right thief, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” &#40;Lk 23:43&#41; – Now, if this alleged purgatory indeed exists, why then didn’t the thief go there? • “And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” &#40;1 Thess 4:16,17&#41; – Here St. Paul describes the Last Day saying that those faithful who are still alive will meet the Lord with those who rise from the dead and then remain with Him always. Are these faithful exempt from purgatory? Is God showing partiality towards them?• In the story of the rich man and Lazarus &#40;Lk 16:19-31&#41; we read about two places; one for comfort and the other for torment. Moreover, there is a great gulf fixed between the two that prevents people from moving from one place to the other. Now where is it mentioned that there is such a purgatory?• The Roman Church falsely teaches that there is a ‘particular’ judgment that takes place after one’s death during which the eternal fate is determined. The ungodly will be sent to hell, the saints will be sent to heaven and the majority of the faithful will be sent to purgatory to be tormented until they become worthy of entering heaven. Now this contradicts Holy Scripture that testifies that there is only one general judgment on the Last Day for all &#40;Mt 16:27; 25:46; Jn 5:28,29; Rev 20:11-15&#41;
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2542 FAQ:Q1: St. Paul said, “If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” &#40;1 Cor 3:15&#41; – Does this fire refer to the purgatory?A1: No it does not for the following reasons:This fire is for works and not individuals “the fire will test each one’s work” &#40;1 Cor 3:13&#41;. This fire is for testing not tormenting.This fire will be on the Last Day “for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire” &#40;1 Cor 3:13&#41; while the alleged fire of purgatory is supposedly prior to the Last Day.This fire will cause loss “if anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss” &#40;1 Cor 3:15&#41; while the fire of purgatory allegedly purifies the faithful and prepares them to go to heaven.The words “he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” signify that this person will be scarcely saved – “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear?” &#40;1 Pet 4:18&#41; –This symbolic fire brings to mind what was said about Joshua the high priest during his life on earth, “Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” &#40;Zech 3:2&#41;Q2: Our Lord said, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” &#40;Mt 12:32&#41; – What is the forgiveness in the age to come?A2: The forgiveness in the age to come applies to those who were wrongly excommunicated by the Church in this age also anyone who repents but for whatever reason could not confess and dies without hearing the forgiveness from the priest in this age. Their forgiveness will be declared or announced in the age to come.Q3: Our Lord said, “Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.” &#40;Mt 5:25,26&#41; – Is this prison the purgatory? A3: No it is not.If our Lord’s words were taken literally, then they are referring to social dealings between people. Now, if they were interpreted symbolically they will not refer to purgatory either. Because all the Church fathers who interpreted this portion of the Sermon on the Mount symbolically did not refer to purgatory at all. The words “till you have paid the last penny” are interpreted as meaning “never” – Thus the Judge is God, the officer is an angel, and the prison is eternal hell. This is obvious from the parable of the unforgiving servant who owed his master ten thousand talents &#40;Mt 18:24&#41; and was not able to pay &#40;Mt 18:25&#41; yet in spite of being forgiven this huge dept, he did not have compassion on his fellow servant who owed him only a hundred denarii. Thus his master “delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.” &#40;Mt 18:34&#41;This parable was referring to the eternal punishment of those who do not forgive others and even though our Lord said, “until he should pay” we know that this is an impossibility because our Lord initially said, “he was not able to pay” &#40;Mat 18:25&#41; – Moreover, if this prison were purgatory, how will the spirit alone be able to pay the last penny without the body, which was the accomplice in committing sin?&#42; This lecture is adapted from ‘Why Do We Reject Purgatory?’ by H.H. Pope Shenouda III.</font>
In Christ,
Mina}

[Jaroslav Franc]

Dear Mina Monir,
thank you for your text. I am very interested in spirituality and doctrine of Coptic Orthodox Church. ...but the question is: Is it an english translation of pope´s "Why do we reject purgatory"? or where can I find original or translation of the book?
Thanks

[David Naess]

Howdy!

I had a long talk with a RC friend about purgatory quite some time ago.

I had always thought of purgatory as being a means of penance.
He said -- Not so!

He said that purgatory is a purification process. Salvation does not automatically make a soul pure enough to stand in the presence of God.

[Kieran P.]

Hi friends, :)

As a Catholic, it's very interesting to read about my Church from the perspective of another tradition. The belief in Purgatory is no more an historical innovation than any developments in the Church. It's simply a refinement of our self-knowledge.

If we're saved by grace through the suffering on the cross, then Purgatory is simply the application of those graces. Clearly, some souls depart straight for heaven, and some need further cleansing, having also been bought by the Precious Blood.

Here's an article which may help you to understand that not only is the belief in Purgatory realistic, it's also supported by scripture and the beliefs of the early Christians:

http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html

Here are some Catholic replies to common objections:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

And the Church Fathers:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp


I understand that the Eastern Church believes in Toll Houses, which is - for me - a curious and very difficult concept to grasp concept. I would be interested to read more about this also. We've each developed differently in this regard, but hopefully it's more of an area where we can listen to each other and gain by mutual charity and understanding.

God bless us all

[Olga]

Without wishing to start another thread, Kieren, suffice to say that the notion of toll-houses is by no means Orthodox dogma or doctrine. In recent years, Fr Seraphim (Rose) has been a prominent proponent of the idea, but it continues to remain a controversial notion.

[Kieran P.]

Hi Olga :)

Thanks for clarifying that!

God bless...

[Nicolaj]

Dear Olga, Dear Psalm23, Dear Brethren!

The 'idea' isn't an idea! What Father Seraphim explains in his book The soul after death is the teaching, a part of the official Dogma of the Orthodox church! It is learned by the Fathers, it is found in the scriptures and it is defended by all the Holy Fathers we have!

The heresy of Purgatory is already been hashed by Hl. Mark of Ephesus in 1439 in very brilliant way! As you say Psalm23, it is an idea created by the RC themselves, in order to justify their indulgence trading.

Repent, weep and repent! Nicolaj

[Kieran P.]

Hi nicolaj :)

Actually, I never said "it is an idea created by the RC themselves, in order to justify their indulgence trading".

That statement is, in fact, a cliched and lazy accusation. It's without foundation, too.

Please read the links I posted in order to learn more about Purgatory, how it's supported by scripture and was understood as such by the early Church.

God bless...

[Nicolaj]

Howdy Psalm23!

Actually I have been a fanatic RC member for quite some years and the bishop who wrote most of the RC Catechism happened to be my local Bishop. So I know enough on the RC heretic teaching about the 'purgatory'.

And I recommend you strongly to read the book from Father Seraphim Rose and start after that right away to save your soul!
I will pray for you that the Spirit of Truth may come upon you and open your eyes that you will be able to see the heretics the church of Rome is teaching.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Kieran P.]

Thanks nikolaj, but no thanks.

If you'd rather not read the article and understand these things, fine. But please, no more lazy assumptions.

God bless

[Nicolaj]

Didn't you read the things I wrote?

I have been RC for a long time and I am very familiar with the ideas they proclaim.
I have read the Catholic Catechism very thorough! and often!

And I am certainly not here to tease you up, but as it would have been fair from your position to read at least the book of Father Seraphim or the material given by the link at the post from leandrosp.

And don't be so offended because there is no need for that, because it came from the heart as I said that I will pray for you.

In Christ, your brother Nicolaj

[Kieran P.]

Hiya nikolaj :)

No offense has been taken!


I have been RC for a long time and I am very familiar with the ideas they proclaim.
I have read the Catholic Catechism very thorough! and often!


That's well said, but you'll forgive me if I'm not convinced so far. You made an opening remark about purgatory that straight out of the Dan Brown faculty of history. ;-)

Please read the links in order to gain a greater understanding - and also, write your old bishop with reproach! He let you down badly, buddy. ;-)


it would have been fair from your position to read at least the book of Father Seraphim or the material given by the link at the post from leandrosp.

The thread isn't about Toll Houses or Fr Seraphim.

God bless you, and keep you well in your faith...

[Aidan Kimel]

I have just finished a series of short articles on the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory (http://pontifications.wordpress.com/purgatory/). Folks may find it of interest, particularly in light of Pope Benedict's recent encyclical. I would be interesting in hearing Orthodox responses to this series. Thank you.