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Byron Jack Gaist
28-12-2005, 12:32 PM
Dear All,

I recently came across the following:


St. Nonnos, when he beheld St. Pelagia entering the baptismal pool naked, praised God for having put into human beauty not only an occasion of fall, but also an occasion of rising towards God.

Is this a genuine saying of St Nonnos? Can someone verify that he actually said this?
This generalises out into a broader question, one that might seem obvious at first: is there a passionless appreciation of human beauty in which the Lord as Creator may be glorified? I ask from the point of view of a sinner who can only imagine such a state exists in theory.

In Christ
Byron

Byron Jack Gaist
29-12-2005, 07:29 AM
Dear All,

I'm disappointed to see that none have as yet responded to this post. Of course I only posted it yesterday, so I'm being a bit impatient perhaps; also, there is a very related thread on "Virginity and Desire in the Saints" going on at the same time, which may be distracting us from this relevant but not identical question.

For those who want to know more about St Nonnos and St Pelagia, here is a short Life of St Pelagia (http://www.chrysostompress.org/collection/1008_pelagia/?CPSESSION=214a65354d02711ed8df31fa964d348e). This brief description does not mention the above quote from St Nonnos, and I would be very interested to see websites or references to books in which the above quote (praising human beauty for not only being an occasion of falling, but also an occasion of rising towards God) can be found.

I don't mean this in any sentimental or romantic sense, but is there not something of the Sublime even in physical beauty?

In Christ
Byron

Fr Raphael Vereshack
29-12-2005, 04:50 PM
Dear Byron,

I had not read before the account you quote above in your post. But I have read other true stories from the desert fathers that are very similar- usually the main point however in the specific context you mention is about dispassion in a situation in which most of us would fall. Somehow in the accounts of this type there is also a hint of something that refers to the state of Adam & Eve in paradise when they could 'see' each other without this being sinful.

Maybe because the account you quote also connects to this more 'daring' theme some are hesitant to comment. After all this is not only a question of beauty but of separating sensuality from beauty which is particularly difficult in the situation quoted. Anyway if we keep to the specific context then I would say we have to follow the direction of our fathers: it might be beautiful- but it's also very easy to fall in such a situation- so flee.
I think the point is that when it comes to beauty as manifested between male and female it is very difficult to avoid sensuality and sexual temptation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Anthony
29-12-2005, 05:20 PM
Dear Byron,

I have heard a similar quotation about an Orthodox saint; I can't remember whether it was St Nonnus or somebody else. I too would be very interested in any comments on the subject, and thank you for bringing it up and providing the link.

Anthony

Olympiada
29-12-2005, 07:22 PM
Dear Fr. Raphael I have some questions about your post 1.


But I have read other true stories from the desert fathers that are very similar- usually the main point however in the specific context you mention is abou t dispassion in a situation in which most of us would fall. Somehow in the accounts of this type there is also a hint of something that refers to the state of Adam & Eve in paradise when they could 'see' each other without this being sinful.

How would you describe the fall in this situation? And how would it be sinful to 'see' someone of the opposite sex or in what manner would 'seeing ' someone of the opposite sex be sinful? 2. \quote { After all this is not only a question of beauty but of separating sensuality from beauty which is particularly difficult i n the situation quoted.} Why the need to separate sensuality from beauty? And for that manner, what is sensuality or how do you define it to be more specific?


Anyway if we keep to the specific context then I would say we have to follow the direction of our fathers: it might be beautiful- but it's also very easy to fall in such a situation- so flee.

Again, what fall are you speaking of?


I think the point is that when it comes to beauty as manifested between male and female it is very difficult to avoid sensuality and sexual temptation.

Again please define sensuality and sexual temptation. I think it is very important we get on the same page regarding these terms especially since we are a co-ed community before we go any further. Males construct female sexuality and that is not entirely fair or healthy in my opinion. In Christ's Love Olympiada

M.C. Steenberg
29-12-2005, 08:00 PM
I think the question of sensuality and beauty has little to do with the fact that this discussion community is 'co-ed': this subject applies to humanity in its entirety, to the fullness of the human condition, and not to one or the other sex's perceptions (as an aside, it seems to me unfair to state that 'males construct female sexuality and this is not entirely for or healthy', as this is certainly as true in the opposite direction -- but that is for another conversation, not really for this forum).

Sensuality is, by definition, that which entices and inflames the senses. In patristic terminology, it generally applies to this enflaming of the senses in a manner that stands distinct from the authentic love invoked by beauty: the vision of God seen in and through creation, stirring the human person to response in love, and ascent. 'Sensuality' stands for the passions' immediate control upon and over the senses of the human organism; a wholly corporeal instigation of pleasure and desire. Authentic love, which is love directed toward God in and through his creation, a love borne in a particular way in Orthodox theology by beauty and the vision of beauty, is the heart's inner working as that which is fashioned in the loving God's image. It is not non-sensory, for the senses are part of the human reality (hence the emphasis on vision, an act of the eyes, etc.); but the senses are in the service of the person's whole being. 'Sensuality' is the senses' domination.

As such, that which is sensual is not the same as that which is beautiful, from a Christian perspective -- even though both will involve the senses (in other words, it is not correct to ascribe 'beauty' to merely an aesthetic 'idea' or intellectual construction). The sensual invokes sensuality: an image or an act that provokes the domination of sensual passions. Beauty, on the other hand, perceived by the senses, invokes divine love in the human heart, however faintly. This love will take differing forms, depending on the circumstances; e.g., the beauty witnessed in a great scene of nature will evoke a different response than the beauty seen in the form of one's spouse; the beauty seen in the form of one's spouse will evoke a different response than the beauty seen in the form of another, etc. But the authentic response to authentic beauty is always an act of divine love in some form.

As to Byron's specific questions about Sts Nonnus and Pelagia: I'm not familiar with the specific apothegm you quoted in your initial post to this thread, but it is entirely in character with Nonnus' comments in the account of Pelagia's conversion and baptism as read on the eighth of October. There it is when Pelagia, still at this stage an harlot, passes by the church door in her robes, that he asks the clergy around him, 'Did not the wonderful beauty of that woman delight you?', a question he repeats a short time later, driven to tears by their lack of response. In Nonnus' case, it is the care for appearance evidenced in this outward beauty that invokes his love for God: he falls to prayer in his cell, 'O Lord Jesus Christ, forgive me, who am a sinner and unworthy, forasmuch as that woman's concern for the adornment of her body surpasseth all my labors on behalf of my wretched soul! She taketh great care to beautify herself, that she might satisfy her mortal admirers, but I make no effort to please Thee, my God, and remain indolent and heedless. How can I dare to face Thee?'

INXC, Matthew

M.C. Steenberg
29-12-2005, 08:04 PM
Dear Byron and others,

The reading on the life of St Pelagia, which I mentioned in my last post is for the eighth of October, is lengthy, but I've reproduced it here in full. A shorter version is provided in some Synaxaria (such as is available at this link (http://www.orthodox.net/redeeming/redeeming.01.02.html)), but the longer version provides the much fuller story. INXC, Matthew


The Life of Our Holy Mother Pelagia the Nun, Who Was Once a Harlot
Written by James, a Deacon of the Church of Heliopolis

From The Great Collection of the Lives of the Saints, Volume 2: October, compiled by St. Demetrius of Rostov


We ought ever to offer abundant thanks to our Lord, Who desires not the death of sinners but patiently awaits their return to life through repentance. Therefore I, James the sinner, write to you, holy brethren, of a wondrous thing which has come to pass in our day, that hearing or reading of it, you may be much edified.

Once, the most pious Archbishop of Antioch summoned eight bishops from the surrounding cities to confer with him concerning certain matters pertaining to the Church. Among them was my own Bishop, the holy man of God Nonnus, who came from Heliopolis, taking me with him. He was a very great man, a perfect monk, who, by reason of his virtuous life, was taken from his Monastery of Tabenna and made a bishop. When the bishops had assembled in the Church of the Holy Martyr Julian, they wished to hear a word of edification from Nonnus, and all sat down before the doors of the church. Nonnus began to speak of such things as would serve for the benefit and salvation of his hearers, and all marvelled at his holy teaching. And lo, a woman, an unbeliever, who was the most notorious harlot in all of Antioch, passed before the doors of the church. She was very haughty and was adorned in costly robes and gold, precious stones, and pearls, and she was accompanied by a multitude of youths and maidens, splendidly clad, who wore necklaces of gold. Such was the beauty of her face, that carnal men could not grow weary of the sight of it. As she passed by us, the air was entirely filled with fragrance, and seeing that her head was uncovered and her shoulders naked, the bishops lowered their eyes and sighed, turning away their faces as if from great sin. But the blessed Nonnus stared at her long and intently until she passed out of sight. Then he turned toward the bishops and said, "Did not the wonderful beauty of that woman delight you?"

But they did not answer him. And Nonnus lowered his head and wept, and his tears fell upon his handkerchief and his breast. He sighed from the depths of his heart and again asked the bishops, "Did not her beauty delight you?"

But they remained silent. Then said Nonnus, "Truly, I learned much from her, for the Lord will set that woman before us at His dread judgment and on her account condemn us. For what do you think? How many hours has this woman remained in her room, bathing and clothing herself, adorning herself in every way, gazing into her mirror, her every thought and concern directed toward appearing as the fairest of women in the eyes of her mortal admirers. But we who have in heaven a Bridegroom eternal, upon Whom the angels desire to gaze, take no thought for the adornment of our wretched souls, which are vile, naked, and full of shame. We do not care to wash them with tears of repentance and to clothe them with the comeliness of the virtues, that they might be pleasing in God's sight and that we be not put to shame and cast out at the wedding of the Lamb."

When he had concluded his admonition, the blessed Nonnus took me, his sinful deacon, and we went to the room which we had been given adjoining the Church of Saint Julian. My Bishop went into his chamber and flung himself down, face to the ground, and said weeping, "0 Lord Jesus Christ, forgive me, who am a sinner and unworthy, forasmuch as that woman's concern for the adornment of her body surpasseth all my labors on behalf of my wretched soul! She taketh great care to beautify herself, that she might satisfy her mortal admirers, but I make no effort to please Thee, my God, and remain indolent and heedless. How can I dare to face Thee? With what words shall I justify myself before Thee? Woe is me, who am a sinner! I stand before Thy holy altar and offer not the fair soul Thou askest of me. The woman, in her vanity, hath set as her purpose to present herself as pleasing to mortal men and hath accomplished that which she resolved to do, but sloth hath made of me a liar. Naked am I, for I have not kept Thy commandments, but I trust not in my works, and through Thy compassion do I hope to be saved!"

As Saint Nonnus said these things, he wept continuously. Moreover, he prayed for that woman, saying, "0 Lord, suffer not the work of Thy hands to perish, and permit not such beauty to remain in subjection to the demons. But do Thou turn her to Thyself, that Thy holy name may be glorified in her, for all things are possible for Thee."

A day and a night passed, and Sunday dawned, and my teacher Saint Nonnus said to me, "Brother James, I wish to tell you of the dream which I had last night. It seemed to me that as I was standing in the corner of the holy altar during the course of the service, a black dove, vile and covered with filth, flew about me; and I was unable to endure its stench. When the deacon exclaimed, 'Catechumens, depart,' the dove flew away, and I saw it no more until the Liturgy was completed. After the dismissal, as we left the church, I suddenly caught sight of the dove again, and it flew about me once more. I stretched forth my hand and laid hold of it and plunged it into the font of water which stood in the narthex of the church. In that water it was cleansed of all defilement, and when it flew off, it was as pure and white as snow, and it flew up to heaven and became invisible."

After he had related the dream to me, the blessed Nonnus took me and entered the cathedral with the other bishops. After greeting the Archbishop, they celebrated the divine service, and when the sacred service was finished, the Archbishop of Antioch requested the blessed Nonnus to instruct the people. Nonnus opened his mouth and taught the people; and his words were not contrived in accordance with the wisdom of this world but were simple, full of power, and served for the enlightenment of all, for the wisdom of God dwelt within him and the Holy Spirit spoke through his lips. He spoke of the dread judgment and of the reward of the righteous and of sinners, and all the people were moved to compunction by his words, and the floor of the church was wet with their tears.

Through the providence of the merciful God, it happened that the whore of whom our story tells, who had never before entered a church nor given thought to her sins, passed by and went into the church. As she listened to Saint Nonnus' teaching, the fear of God came upon her, and she pondered her sins and the eternal torments they merited, which Saint Nonnus described. She fell into despair, and a flood of tears flowed from her eyes, and she was unable to cease weeping on account of her broken heart. And she summoned two of her pages and said to them, "Remain here until the holy man who is speaking departs. Then follow him, and observe where he is staying, and return and tell me."

The youths did as they were instructed and told her that the saint was staying at the church of the martyr Saint Julian. She immediately sat down and wrote the following letter to the blessed Nonnus with her own hand:

"To Christ's holy disciple from the devil's disciple, a sinful woman. I have heard that your God has bowed the heavens and come down to earth, not to save the righteous but sinners. Such was His humility, that He ate with publicans, and He upon Whom the cherubim dare not gaze lived among sinners and spoke with harlots. Therefore, my lord, since you are a true servant of Christ (as I hear from the Christians), do not spurn me who with your help seek to draw near the Saviour of the world and to behold His most holy countenance."

Such was the harlot's letter to the saint. Nonnus took it and read it and replied to her thus: "God knows who you are and what are your thoughts and intention. But I say to you: do not tempt me, for I am a sinful minister of God. If you truly desire to believe in my God and to see me, there are other bishops with me. Come, therefore, and see me in their presence, for you shall not meet with me alone."

When the sinful woman received Nonnus' letter and read it, she was filled with great joy and hastened to the Church of Saint Julian, and she sent word to the blessed Nonnus that she had come. Nonnus called the other seven bishops and admitted her into their presence. When she came into the place where the holy bishops were assembled, she cast herself to the floor, weeping, took Saint Nonnus by the feet, and said, "I beg you, my lord, do as your Teacher, the Lord Jesus Christ: show mercy to me and make me a Christian. Wash me clean through Holy Baptism, for I am a sea of sins, my lord, and an abyss of iniquity."

The face of every bishop and cleric present was wet with tears as they saw how the harlot had come with such repentance and faith. The blessed one could scarcely prevail upon her to arise from his feet, and he said to her, "The canons of the Church permit no whore to be baptized unless sureties be provided that she not fall again into her former unclean way of life."

When the harlot heard Nonnus' reply, she again flung herself at his feet, washing his feet with tears and wiping them with her hair as once did the harlot in the Gospel to Christ. She said, "You shall answer to God for my soul if you do not baptize me this day. God shall require my soul out of your hand and charge you with my wicked deeds. If you deny me Baptism, you shall give account for my impure and vile life. If you do not make me a stranger to my evil works, may your God reject you and may you become a worshipper of idols. If you do not make me today a bride of Christ and lead me to your God, may you have no portion with Him and with His saints."

Hearing and seeing how the harlot burned with such blessed desire, all gave glory to God, Who loves mankind. Immediately, the blessed one sent me, the lowly James, to the Archbishop, to tell him of these things. When the Archbishop heard of them, he rejoiced greatly and said to me, "Go tell your Bishop: 'Holy father, this matter has been entrusted to you, for I know well that you are the lips of which God has said, If thou bring forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth." Then he called for the lady Romana, the first deaconess of the church, and he sent her with me.

When we returned, we found Pelagia still lying on the ground, clasping the feet of the blessed Nonnus, who was scarcely able to persuade her to rise. He said to her, "Arise, daughter, that you may be catechized before Baptism."

When Pelagia arose, the Bishop said to her, "Confess your past sins."

Weeping, Pelagia said, "Were I to try my conscience, I should find in myself not a single good deed. I know only that my sins are greater in number than the sands of the sea and that all the water in the ocean is not sufficient to wash clean the defilement of my evil works. But I set my hope upon your God, that He will lift the burden of my iniquities and look mercifully upon me."

The Bishop asked her, "What is your name?"

She replied, "I was named Pelagia by my parents, but the people of Antioch call me Margarita, because of the beautiful and precious pearls with which I have adorned myself through my sins."

Then the Bishop made Pelagia a catechumen and baptized her in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and he anointed her with chrism and communed her of the most precious and life-giving Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto the remission of her sins. The deaconess Romana was made her spiritual mother, and Romana received her out of the baptismal font and led her to the room set apart for the catechumens where we awaited her. Said the blessed Nonnus to the other bishops, "Come to the supper, brethren, and let us rejoice with the angels of God, for the lost sheep has been found. With spiritual joy let us eat food cooked with oil and drink wine."

When all had come, they began to eat with the newly baptized one. And suddenly a demon began to cry out as it were with a human voice, so that all could hear, saying, "Woe, woe, what things I suffer from this babbling winebibber! 0 you wicked old man! Was it not sufficient for you to have stolen thirty thousand Saracens from me and to have baptized them? Were you not satisfied to have taken from me Heliopolis, which once was mine, and to have led it to your God, with all its inhabitants, who once worshipped me? But now you have cut off my last hope! What shall I do, 0 you evil and deceptive monk? No longer can I suffer your impudence! Cursed be the day on which you were born, wicked elder: the flood of your tears has inundated my dwelling and made it desolate." These things the devil cried out before the doors of the room in which we sat, and all that were present heard his voice.

And the devil said to the newly baptized one, "What have you done to me, 0 my lady Pelagia? You have emulated my Judas, for he, although honored with the glorious rank of an apostle, betrayed his Lord; and you have done the same to me!"

Then the Bishop commanded the handmaiden of God Pelagia to sign herself with the Cross, and she made the sign of the Cross of Christ upon herself and said to the devil, "May Jesus Christ drive you away and deliver me from you!" When she had said this, the devil immediately fled.

Two days later, while Pelagia was sleeping at the house of Romana, her spiritual mother, the devil came and awoke her and began to say to her, "My lady Margarita, what evil have I done you? Did I not adorn you with precious stones and with ornaments and beautiful robes? I beg you, tell me how I have offended you, and I shall immediately do whatever you command. Only turn not away from me, and do not make me a laughingstock."

Pelagia guarded herself with the sign of the Cross and said, "My Lord Jesus Christ has snatched me out of your teeth and has prepared me to be His bride in His heavenly bridal chamber. He it is Who shall drive you away from me." And the devil immediately vanished.

Pelagia quickly awoke the holy Romana and said to her, "0 my mother, pray for me, for the evil one pursues me!"

Romana said to Pelagia, "Be not afraid of him, for now he dreads even your shadow and trembles at the sight of it."

On the third day after her Baptism, Pelagia summoned one of her pages and said to him, "Go to my house, and make a list of whatever is in my jewelry boxes and all my ornaments, and bring here everything you find."

The boy went and did as he had been told. Then the blessed Pelagia called for Saint Nonnus the Bishop and delivered all those things into his hands, saying, "This is the wealth with which Satan has enriched me: I give it up into your holy hands. Do with it as you wish, for now I seek only the riches of my Lord Jesus Christ."

The blessed Bishop Nonnus summoned the steward of the church and in the presence of all gave him those costly things and said to him, "I adjure you in the name of the holy and indivisible Trinity: of this gold give nothing to the episcopal treasury, neither to that of the church, nor do you take a portion thereof, nor any of the clergy; but distribute it wisely to orphans, to the poor, and to the infirm with your own hands, that what were sinful riches may become a wealth of righteousness. If you transgress against my command, may there be an anathema upon your house, and may your portion be with them who cried out, Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!"

The handmaiden of God Pelagia kept no part of her wealth for her sustenance but was fed by the lady Romana the deaconess, for she had vowed that the riches gained by sin she would not use to buy food. Moreover, she summoned all her menservants and maidservants and set them free, giving each of them much silver and gold. She said to them, "Children, I release you from temporal bondage: strive to be free from servitude to the vain world, which is full of sin, so that as we were once together in this world, we may all be granted to inherit that life which is blessed." When she had said this to them, she let them depart.

On the eighth day after her enlightenment, the day when the newly christened lay aside the white robes which they receive in Baptism, Pelagia arose very early in the morning. Now that day was a Sunday. She removed the white baptismal robe with which she was clad and put on a hair shirt. Then she took old clothing which belonged to the blessed Nonnus and hid herself from all, departing from the city of Antioch to a place known to no one. Romana the deaconess in her sorrow wept much for her, but God, Who knows all things, revealed to the blessed Nonnus that Pelagia had gone to Jerusalem. And Nonnus consoled Romana, saying, "Do not weep, daughter, but rather rejoice, for like Mary, Pelagia hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."

A few days later, the Archbishop permitted us to leave, and we returned to our own homes. Three years after this, I conceived a desire to go to Jerusalem and to venerate the Holy Tomb of our Lord Jesus Christ. I asked my Bishop, the blessed Nonnus, to permit me to depart, and he consented, saying to me, "Brother James, when you go to the holy places, search out a monk named Palagius living in seclusion. He is a eunuch and a most virtuous man. When you find him, speak with him, for you will be much edified by him as he is a true servant of Christ and a perfect monk." This Nonnus said concerning the handmaiden of God Pelagia, but he did not reveal to me what he knew of her. For she had gone to Jerusalem and had erected a cell for herself on the Mount of Olives, where our Lord prayed, shutting herself up there and devoting her life to God.

I departed for the holy places and venerated the Tomb of our Lord Jesus Christ and the precious Cross. The next day I began to search for the monk named Pelagius, as my Bishop had instructed me, and I found his cell on the Mount of Olives. His cell had no door but was enclosed on every side: I saw only a small window in one of the walls. I knocked on it, and the handmaiden of God opened it, and when she saw me, she recognized me but said nothing. But I did not know her, for how could she be recognized when her exquisite beauty had withered like a flower? Her eyes were deeply sunken, and the bones in her face protruded because of her great and boundless fasting. All who lived in Jerusalem and the surrounding region thought her to be a eunuch, and no man knew that she was a woman; neither did I know, for my bishop had said she was a monk who was a eunuch, and so I received a blessing from her as from a monk. Then she said to me, "Brother, are you not James, the deacon of the blessed Bishop Nonnus?"

I marvelled that she knew my name and that I was the deacon of the blessed Nonnus and answered, "Yes, my lord."

She said to me, "Beseech your Bishop to pray for me, for he is truly a holy man and an apostle of Christ."

When Pelagia had said this, she shut the window and began to chant the Third Hour. After praying, I departed, having received much profit from the sight of her face and from her sweet words.

After leaving Pelagia, I visited the monasteries there and their brethren and spoke with holy men, receiving their blessing and much benefit from them. In every community the eunuch Pelagius was praised, and all were profited by his life. Because of this, I wished to return to him and to comfort my soul by hearing his edifying words. And so I returned to his cell, said the prayer, knocked upon his window, and dared to call his name, saying, "Open, Abba Pelagius"; but he did not answer me.

I thought that he was praying or resting, and so I waited a little and again prayed and tapped for him to open for me, but there was no reply. Once again I waited for a time and then knocked. For three days I remained outside the window, and every few hours I knocked, for I greatly desired to see his holy face and to receive his blessing, but no voice replied. I said to myself, "Either he has left his cell, and it is empty, or he has reposed."

I dared to force open the window and saw that he lay dead upon the floor; therefore, I was frightened and lamented greatly since I was not deemed worthy to receive his final blessing. I then shut the window, went to Jerusalem, and told the holy fathers who dwelt there that Abba Pelagius the eunuch had reposed. Immediately word spread throughout Jerusalem that Saint Pelagius, the wonder-working monk, had reposed in the Lord. Monks from every monastery and an innumerable multitude of people from throughout the city of Jerusalem, from Jericho, and from the far side of the Jordan gathered to bury his holy remains, and after breaking open the window of his cell, they made an opening large enough for a man to enter. Through it, certain pious men went into the cell and removed the precious relics. Then came the Patriarch of Jerusalem with many of the fathers; and when, according to custom, they began to anoint the body with spices, they saw that the saint was a woman. Crying out with tears they said, "0 God, Who art wondrous in the saints, glory to Thee! For many are the hidden saints whom Thou hast on earth; not men alone but women as well!"

The clergy and monastics wished to conceal this secret from the people but were unable to do so, for God did not wish that it be hidden but rather desired that it be known, that His handmaiden might be glorified. Many people assembled there, and nuns came forth from their convents with candles and censers, chanting psalms and hymns. They took Pelagia's precious and holy body and with fitting reverence returned it to the cell in which she had labored, burying it there.

Such was the life of this former harlot; such the conversion of her who was perishing; such her labors and struggles, by which she pleased God. May we be granted to receive mercy with her on the day of judgment from our Lord Jesus Christ, to Whom be glory, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Olympiada
29-12-2005, 08:32 PM
Matthew wrote


Authentic love, which is love directed toward God in and through his creation, a love borne in a particular way in Orthodox theology by beauty and the vision of beauty, is the heart's inner working as that which is fashioned in the loving God's image.

In my fallen cynical state I find it hard to believe that authentic love ca n exist in the 21st century *at all*, especially not in the Bay Area where I live, especially not for those who grew up in the Bay Area.


Beauty, on the other hand, perceived by the senses, invokes divine love in the human heart , however faintly.

Again in my cynicism, I do not think beauty exists in the area where I live and the time I live in. I think it is *all* sensuality. I am not sure where to go with this thread from here. I really can not relate to it *at all*. In Christ Olympiada

Tim Grass
29-12-2005, 08:37 PM
" In my fallen cynical state I find it hard to believe that authentic love ca n exist in the 21st century *at all*, especially not in the Bay Area where I live, especially not for those who grew up in the Bay Area...... Again in my cynicism, I do not think beauty exists in the area where I live and the time I live in. I think it is *all* sensuality. I am not sure where to go with this thread from here. I really can not relate to it *at all*.

Just cause you can't relate to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

--Tim

Fr Raphael Vereshack
29-12-2005, 10:22 PM
Dear Olympiada,

I hope you can accept that I cannot do better in my answer to the questions you ask above than Matthew S already has.

God's peace be with you.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

Alec Lowly
29-12-2005, 11:40 PM
Byron asks:


" ... is there a passionless appreciation of human beauty in which the Lord as Creator may be glorified? I ask from the point of view of a sinner who can only imagine such a state exists in theory."

Yes, I think there is, and that I've experienced it, but I think it's important to add that I'm 50+ years old, married, and was not seeking the experience. As, I think, Father Raphael pointed out, very wisely, this kind of experience is not to be sought, because it is a very risky matter. But still, it is possible to appreciate the natural beauty of the human form ~without~ sexual arousal. But let us not put ourselves to the test.

In XC,
Alec Lowly, sinner

M.C. Steenberg
30-12-2005, 01:18 AM
Dear Byron,

I was present once at a conversation between a monk and a pilgrim, the latter of whom asked a question along the lines of that being discussed in this thread (i.e. 'Is it possible to...'). The monk's response was, 'It's possible to juggle knives safely. I wouldn't recommend you try it.'

INXC, Matthew

Byron Jack Gaist
30-12-2005, 07:54 AM
Dear All,

Thank you for your responses, which have reassured me at least that I am probably not entirely deluded in believing there may be something nobler calling us past our own sensuality, even when we are gazing at the beauty of another. Nevertheless, I would still like to hear from somebody who can verify or falsify the original saying of St Nonnus I quoted. The whole story of St Nonnus and St Pelagia can seem unrealistic, or pregnant with unconscious tensions, to the modern educated reader, who as Olympiada describes, finds it hard to believe there is anything but sensual appreciation of beauty left in this world. If read carefully, however, I find this to be a very genuine story; the drama is entirely authentic and human, and the demon of sensuality has been so clearly knocked on the head in it, that he actually manifests himself in complaint! Probably for a man to be able to gaze at a woman as beautiful as St Pelagia with the sort of genuine love that St Nonnus felt for her, he must have already moved far past the stage of seeing women as women, to perceiving them as fellow humans, to contemplating them as children of God created in His Divine Image. That's why I said for me it's mostly theory...

I would also appreciate it very much if other sayings from Church Fathers indicating a holy appreciation of human physical beauty could be posted. Paradoxically, I think this may be one important way out of the conflict of lust for those prone to this sin.

Dear Matthew,

I like your story about the monk and the pilgrim. Consider the point about "juggling knives" taken; I don't intend to go around seeking the experience like some spellbound neo-romantic troubadour, courting his lovely but unavailable mistress!! I'm afraid for the likes of me the safest option is to stare at the ground or try to think of something suitably non-sensual, like the condition of my bank balance.

In Christ
Byron

Father David Moser
30-12-2005, 05:14 PM
In my fallen cynical state I find it hard to believe that authentic love ca n exist in the 21st century *at all*, especially not in the Bay Area where I live, especially not for those who grew up in the Bay Area.
...
Again in my cynicism, I do not think beauty exists in the area where I live and the time I live in. I think it is *all* sensuality.

Olympiada,

I did not grow up in the Bay area, but I visit there frequently. How is it that you can say there is no true beauty there and no true love? If nowhere else, you will find this at the Holy Virgin Cathedral on Geary. There, especially in the main cathedral at the relics of St John, you will find both true beauty and authentic love. For a living example of that love, you might also speak with the priest who cares for the St Tikhon's Church at St John's old residence in the former Orphanage. He is truly a man of great love and compassion. I am astounded that in your search for true spiritual beauty and true "authentic" love you have not made a pilgrimage to St John. As a "side note" Archbishop Anthony, whom I mentioned recently in a another discussion, of blessed memory was also a living walking talking font of "authentic love" - no one who knew him well will say any different.

Fr David Moser

Kosmas Damianides
30-12-2005, 07:11 PM
Dear Byron,

Forget about the gift of dispassion for a moment. The lessons from the Holy Gerontikon (Sayings of the Desert Fathers) teach us not to deny our feelings but to transform them. In all we do we should do for the glory of God. So when the temptation comes, do we turn our face and pretend that we did not see? Do we fantasise about what we have seen and bring the images again and again into our minds? The Blessed Evagrios of Pontus (Philokalia vol. 1) tells us to allow Satan to work in our mind and observe how he works, then when we are aware of how he affects us we ought to rebuke him with great force saying "Get behind me Satan". In this way we accept our weeknesses and passions rather than pretending they do not exist.

As you are already aware our spiritual peace is the most important aspect in our Christian struggle. Our aim is to maintain our peace no matter how disturbed our soul may become. Even for a married couple, the flesh may be more at peace than with an unmarried man or woman. So I think that our reaction and disposition towards nudity and sensuality are relative to our whole outlook on life. First of all, God made our bodies the way they are. They are beautiful, and to deny this is to rob God of the glory due to Him. Secondly dto despise our flesh and blood which God made is not only a sin it is a heresy - (ie. Manichaeism).

Nevertheless, the lessons one learns from these saints which we say have gained the gift of dispassion is thet their example is a good way for us to focus on God. Notice that St Nonnus uses what was for others a moment of shame wickedness and disgust into a moment and an opportunity to glorify God for the beauty of his creation instead.

We too should take every opportiunity and think positively thereby making most of our lives to offer thanks and glorification to God. Do we need the gift of dispassion in order not to have evil thoughts? I think that no-body can ever be free of passions.

An example is when in the Gerontikon a monk was once procliming that he was now free from passions due to his strict ascetic life, but another Abott asked him, if there was a naked woman sleeping in your bed would you still say that you were free from your passions? The ascetic replied, I would try as hard as I could not to be affected. "You see" said the Abott, "we can never rid ourselves of passions only pacify them."

I guess the grace of God also helps us when we use methods to pacify our passions - (ie. fasting, vigil, prayer, and if your game sleeping on the floor.)

Olympiada
30-12-2005, 08:02 PM
Fr. David Oh I have made many pilgrimages to the Cathedral. I grew up within walking distance of it. I am surprised you think I have not. In fact I have many bottles of St. John's oil, his icon and his service and I went to his monastery on his feast day and have photographs from my trip. In fact the monks at his monastery are my friends. What I mean was true spiritual love in an Orthodox Christian marriage, authentic Christian love. That I have *not* seen in my wanderings in the streets of San Francisco nor anyone else I have been in the USA. Certainly I have *not* experienced it. I am not talking about monastic saints. I am talking about men and women living in the world, growing up in this culture , in this America, who have risen above sensual temptation and are *not* puritanical. Oh and by the way, Bulgakov was never a heretic. I asked a friend of mine about this. In Christ's Love Olympiada Kane

Father David Moser
30-12-2005, 09:54 PM
What I mean was true spiritual love in an Orthodox Christian marriage, authentic Christian love. That I have *not* seen in my wanderings in the streets of San Francisco nor anyone else I have been in the USA. Certainly I have *not* experienced it. I am not talking about monastic saints. I am talking about men and women living in the world, growing up in this culture , in this America, who have risen above sensual temptation and are *not* puritanical.

I guess I'm not sure what you are looking for then, because many of the clergy as well as pious laity (some in SF) are very much married and grew up in this culture and who certainly fit my idea of "true spiritual love in an Orthodox Christian marriage, authentic Christian love." At least 3 of my good friends among the San Francisoc area clergy I know well enough to say that they manifest such a quality of love for one another in their marriages. If we expand the "search" beyond the borders of the Bay Area there are certainly many many more. But to truely see such a love fully developed and evident, I think you need to look at those whose marriages have grown for a number of years (say 20 or more) - otherwise you only see the potential for such love, not the mature fruits of it.

But then we may not be looking for the same thing here so perhaps I am seeing something that is not the same as that for which you are looking.

Fr David Moser

Olympiada
30-12-2005, 10:32 PM
Fr. David, You are right, I am looking for either people of my generation or unmarried people of my parents generation who are not corrupt. And I have found *very * few. People who grew up outside the Orthodox church. Converts. What convert has a pure heart? That is what I am seeking. In Christ Olympiada

Owen Jones
31-12-2005, 02:56 AM
It all depends on what you are looking for. If you look for evil you will find it. If you look for love and goodness and fealty, you will find it. It is a given that there will always be societal evils. If we wait for the society to improve, we will be always in a state of sadness. A faithful person does not allow himself to become despondent over the evils of others. Or when we do, we should know what action we should take to dispel this state of mind.

Olympiada
31-12-2005, 03:32 AM
Owen, I am getting frustrated with the turn this conversation is taking. We do no t look for evil in others. We are slammed by it. And then what? What is the faithful 'proper' response to it? In Christ Olympiada

Owen Jones
31-12-2005, 08:54 PM
The Bible says, "Do not fret about the evil other men do." And, "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." This is sound advice and we should try to follow it. That there is evil in the world is no surprise. A well-formed soul does not become downcast over the prevalence of evil in others, but rather becomes ever more motivated to root out one's own evil thoughts and tendencies, and to obey the commandments. If we cannot be virtuous and joyful because we are around others who sin, then we have the option of removing ourselves from their company. But chances are we will just take their sins with us. Because what we hate in their sins, is in fact what we hate in ourselves. So instead of condemning the world around us, we should condemn ourselves. and beg for God's mercy.

Tim Grass
01-01-2006, 02:29 AM
Thanks Owen.... that was a really nice message. I think part of the problem is that we're used to being barraged by images of evil and sin.... this is what TV and the news show us. But we're less tuned in to the good in the people and the world all around us.... when in fact its just as present and "in your face" as evil. We see what we want to see... and also, what we're conditioned to see.

--tim