Orthodoxy and Judaism

[George Karras]

When one reads in the news that polls within Israel indicate support by the absolute majority (almost 75%!!!) of the on-going slaughter of innocent people by the so-called free and democratic nation of Israel and its criminal government, then many questions arise. One that comes up is on the make-up of this nation that allows it to completely disregard human descencyand international law. It is unfortunate that nobody has the courage to point out the true roots of such blood-thirsty, racist people and their satanic and complete disregard of ANY other race. Not to worry though, the Bible provides us with a clear answer:

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Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

=====================

Mat 27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

Mat 27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

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Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

=====================

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

AMEN!

[Richard McBride]

George:

If you have family caught up in the Israeli attacks, I pray for them. If you are separated from them, it must be a terrible reality you live through.
I weep for the suffering mothers on both sides. The suffering is not justified by the error in sending the Jews back to Palestine; it is no longer their chosen land, and they are no longer the chosen people.

But if WE are now the chosen of the New Covenant, then we must also accept that responsibility better than did those of the First Covenant. There may be no room for hatred under the Covenant. Hatred even for demons must be given with the decision of what is demonic; that is a judgement, perhaps best left to God. Be correct, or you will be in great error.
Love your enemies, and you heap coals upon their heads. But this very hard to do. I am not good at such forgiveness.

I pray for you in your grief
I weep with you in your bitter exasperation
richard

[Razhden Guriadze]

Richard,

I agree! let us pray for the innocents in any war.

Most of the time the women and children "reap the whirlwind" started by the governments.

We have an Orthodox Christian friend who (believe it or not) is married to and Orthodox Jewish man. They used to live between Jerusalem and Bethlehem.

Again, let us pray for the innocents in this and all wars.

ICXC,
Razhden

[George Karras]

Richard:

Please forgive me, but where in my words did you surmise that I am expressing "bitter exasperation"? My quotes in the above post are not my words but our Lord's. I am pointing out FACTS!

If you are Orthodox (I am concluding from your post that you are), then you have the same relatives that I do in Palestine -- thousands of Orthodox Christians, many of them being slaughtered by an army that reminds us of the most extreme acts committed by the Nazis or worse. One of OUR relatives, the Church of the Nativity caretaker / bell ringer, was shot dead in the head as he was going to work, by an Israeli sniper. I weep for him and so should you. Many, many more have been murdered in the last few days. Our most sacred grounds are being desecrated by a mob (pretending to be an Army).

I live in the USA and I absolutely detest that my tax dollars are used to give away Apache helicopters and F-16s to the Israelis so they can execute innocent women and children. This is not hate, it is disgust! I do not hate my enemies, I hate their actions! I do hate the sinners, I hate their sins! Lord have mercy on them, they will have to answer to Him for their actions!

I use the Internet and reach out for sites that can give me an accurate representation of the on-going events. I find that all mainstream media (being in Jewish hands) are misinforming the world. Here are a couple of links that provide some accurate information (I confirmed it through some other sites as well):

http://www.rense.com/general22/rock.htm

http://www.rense.com/general21/rrr.htm

The entire region is boiling and all reasonable people and governments are calling on Israel to STOP -- their voice falling upon deaf ears...

Lets ALL pray for OUR relatives AND ALL OTHER innocent individuals that are being slaughtered by the Israelis. And yes, we ALL must speak up and defend our brethren. To remain passive and accept a murderous event by a supposedly legitimate government is to become accomplishes!

Why is it though, that I have this sour feeling in my stomach that matters will not improve? Maybe because of what OUR Lord has prophesized? LORD HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US!!!

[George Karras]

I found this posted at a web site and wish to get membership opinions on the subject matter below. I would normally write this off as the words of an anti-Jew; however, I read (bottom of the article) that the statement was made by an Israeli citizen, former concentration camp inmate during WW II, and the founder of Israel's Human Rights League

The article is posted at:

http://www.rense.com/general21/anti.htm

Can anybody shed some light?

============================================

'Anti-Christian Feelings Exploding In Israel'
Statement By Professor Israel Shahak On The Jewish Hatred Towards Christianity
By Jeffrey Heller
4-7-02


Dishonouring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism. Spitting on the cross, an especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews. In the past, when the danger of anti-Semitic hostility was a real one, the pious Jews were commanded by their rabbis either to spit so that the reason for doing so would be unknown, or to spit onto their chests, not actually on the cross or openly before the church. The increasing strength of the Jewish state has caused these customs to become more open again but there should be no mistake: The spitting on the cross for converts from Christianity to Judaism, organized in Kibbutz Sa'ad and financed by the Israeli government is an act of traditional Jewish piety. It does not seize to be barbaric, horrifying and wicked because of this! On the contrary, it is worse because it is so traditional, and much more dangerous as well, just as the renewed anti-Semitism of the Nazis was dangerous, because in part, it played on the traditional anti-Semitic past.

This barbarous attitude of contempt and hate for Christian religious symbols has grown in Israel. In the 1950s Israel issued a series of stamps representing pictures of Israeli cities. In the picture of Nazareth, there was a church and on its top a cross - almost invisible, perhaps the size of a millimeter. Nevertheless, the religious parties, supported by many on the Zionist "left" made a scandal and the stamps were quickly withdrawn and replaced by an almost identical series from which the microscopic cross was withdrawn.

Then there was the long-drawn-out battle about Christian influence in elementary arithmetic. Pious Jews object to the international plus sign for it is a cross, and it may in their opinion, influence little children to convert to Christianity. Another "explanation" holds; it would then be difficult to "educate" them to spit on the cross, if they become used to it in their arithmetic exercises. Until the early 1970s two different sets of arithmetic books were used in Israel. One for the secular schools, employing an inverted "T" sign. In the early '70's the religious fanatics "converted" the Labour Party to the great danger of the cross in arithmetic, and from that time, in all Hebrew elementary schools (and now many high schools as well) the international plus sign has been forbidden.

Similar development is visible in other areas of education. Teaching the New Testament was always forbidden, but in the old time conscientious teachers of history used to circumvent the prohibition, by organizing seminars or sending the students to libraries (not the school libraries, of course). About 10 years ago there was a wave of denouncing such teachers. One in Jerusalem was almost sacked, for advising her history pupils, who were studying the history of Jews in Palestine around 30-40 AD, that it would be a good thing if they would read a few chapters of the New Testament as a historical aid. She retained her post only after humbly promising not to do this again.

However in recent years, anti-Christian feelings are literally exploding in Israel (and among Israel-worshipping Jews in Diaspora too) together with the increase of the Jewish fanaticism in all other areas too.

The real enemies of truth here, as in many other aspects of the Israel reality, are the socialists, "liberals", "radicals", etc. in the USA. Imagine the reaction of the US Liberals, and of such papers as The Nation and New York Review of Books, not to speak of the New York Times if in any state whatsoever, the government financed spitting on a Star of David? But when here in Israel, the government finances the spitting on a cross, they are and will continue to be, quite silent. More than this, they helpt to finance it. United States taxpayers, who are of course mostly Christians, are finacing at least half the Israeli budget, one way or another, and therfore the spitting on the cross too.

The late Professor Israel Shahak was an Israeli citizen, former concentration camp inmate during WW II, and the founder of Israel's Human Rights League. His book "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" about Jewish hatred and contempt toward Gentiles, is highly recommended.

[Chad Duskin]

After looking at the web site (www.rense.com (http://www.rense.com)) I wonder how the articles mentioned in previous posts are connected with the UFO theme of the site as a whole?

[Richard McBride]

Hi Chad:

Is “Rense” another outlet for “inquiring minds”?

richard

[Chad Duskin]

Hi Richard:

Your "inquiring minds" outlet sounds right!

Chad

[George Karras]

Richard / Chad:

It is indeed very sad that we have to go to sites whose content includes UFO garbage to find some news that accurately depict the on-going slaughter of the Palestinian people. However, since you gentlemen appear to discredit the links that I provided, here are some more from more "acceptable" or rather "main-stream" sources:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/printedition/chi-0204090275apr09.story?coll=c\

http://antiwar.com/hacohen/pf/p-h040502.html

http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/20460.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orthodoxia/message/3394

I challenge you all to NOT believe the garbage that is being fed to us by the CNN-type of networks but to search the web. You have the ability to read practically ANY newspaper in the world, as the web has free language translators. Alta Vista has one such translators for several languages. Anybody can read news posted in France, Spain, Portugal, Israel, or Saudi Arabia. Alta Vista's web page translator is available at:

http://www.altavista.com/sites/babelfish

I challenge all of you to think for yourselves and not be so willing to accept what we have all been "trained" to consider as reputable news sources.

[Chad Duskin]

George:

Thank you for the links. I will read them thoughroughly. I am aware of the situation in regards to Palestinians in Isreal. I have read many reports in Again magazine and Cornerstone. I find them to be accurate and respectable. I wish the mainstream media would cover both sides of the story fairly.

My problem with the Rense site is that many times the message can get distorted by the medium which carries it. That is why I dislike the modern "worship" music that is used in so many Protestant churches today. The medium becomes the message.

God bless! And thank you again for the other links. This situation needs to be brought forward for all to see!

Chad

[Gregory Myron]

Does anyone have any news on the status of the church of the Nativity in Bethlehem? It was getting shelled and shot at the other day..... has any serious damage been done?

--Gregory

[George Karras]

There is significant damage reported but nothing concrete as the Israeli Army has not and is not at present allowing any reporters to come near the Church square. Additionally the clerics within are hesitant to mention anything via cellular phones as their position (and lives) are at stake. It is simply and ugly situation!

The latest info I have received indicate an initiative by Bishop Aristorchus, the representative of the Greek Orthodox Church. He submitted a proposal at a meeting of Greek Orthodox, Armenian, and Roman Catholic leaders with Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior and Deputy Defense Minister Dalia Rabin Pelesoff.. He suggested the fighters give up their weapons and Israel not imprison them or put them on trial, but allow them to leave the country instead.

It sounds like a very reasonable way out of this mess which also preserves the sanctity of the ancient church.

Now lets see what the Israelis do...

BTW, the pertinent article is posted at:

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/10/News/News.46655.html

George

[Richard McBride]

George says:


"It is indeed very sad that we have to go to sites whose content includes UFO garbage to find some news that accurately depict the on-going slaughter of the Palestinian people. However ... I challenge you all to NOT believe the garbage that is being fed to us by the CNN-type of networks but to search the web."

George, you seem more concerned with ranting than reading. Chad WAS talking about web sites. And I wasn't aware of him supporting CNN (not that that matters too much). Where does that accusation originate? What have you read here that gives any information on anyone's views of CNN (except your own, of course)? I shouldn't imagine that anyone is in the dark about the short comings of all news organizations.
And just out of curiosity, how does your vitriol further the subject of your own one-sided ranting? It certainly doesn't seem to make your line any more understandable or believable.

I just don't understand why you attack in all directions, flailing at everything in site.

richard

[John Curtis Dunn]

During this Great Fast I have been reading i{THE HEART OF SALVATION The life and Teachings of Saint Theophan the Recluse}. St. Theophan would seemed to live by the same motto being suggested by George and Richard. On page 60 we read "On the twenty-second of Aprill 1882 he wrote: "I received three books about the French war. They are all expensive because of the maps. But this was written by Germans. i{Everywhere they are the victors!} (my emphasis) i{It would be good to know how the French write about the same war. Ask it there are some writings by Frenchmen about this war."} And on the twelfth of October: i{"Ask Gotye whether there are writngs that describe how things went in Paris itself during the war, particularly at the overthrow of napoleon and in the siege."}

It is always good to hear both sides to any dispute before judging, even when it involves Orthodox Christians. Sadly, sometimes it seems that we are forced by circumstances and lack of reliable information to act in haste. In all these matters we remain convinced that "Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God."

But even so, we are not called to become the proverbial Ostrich. My Priest has informed his parish with the personal experience of Orthodox Christians in Bethlehem of whom he has been in contact with. Truly, we must pray for the Peace of the Jerusalem which is from above, of which all who are Orthodox Christians are citizens.

How sad it was for many of us, if not all, to celebrate the Joyous feast of Pascha while bombs were raining upon Serbian Orthodox Christians. And so it seems that we are again being subjected to the saddness of this world in the approaching light of Resurrection. It is for us to suffer with them who suffer, to weep with those who weep, and to bear their burdens in any kind of opportunity available to us, and which we can do with 'joyously suffering hearts.'

John Curtis

[John Curtis Dunn]

Everywhere they are the victors! (my emphasis) It would be good to know how the French write about the same war. Ask it there are some writings by Frenchmen about this war." And on the twelfth of October: "Ask Gotye whether there are writngs that describe how things went in Paris itself during the war, particularly at the overthrow of napoleon and in the siege."

Missed the reverse backslash....

[Razhden Guriadze]

Greetings in Christ,

Isn't the internet wonderful. We can sit in our homes and become anybody.Don't get upset! I am not making any allegations of anything against anyone.

If this were a business we would have security verify the identity of everyone entering the building.

On the "Net" we have to take a lot for granted. I mean, I could be "Jack the Ripper", The Pope, Vladimir Putin , or a circus clown how would any of you know?

I have a time accepting everything any news media says in totality.

They use to say if you wanted to know the truth you would read The New York Times, The Christian Science Monitor, and The Daily Worker.If you found the common thread among them then you had the truth.

Enough of my rambling.
God bless,
ICXC,
Razhden

[Richard McBride]

SAUDI PRINCE GIVES $27 MILLION TO PALESTINIANS

NEW YORK (CBS.MW) - Saudi billionaire Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal, chairman of Kingdom Holding and the largest single investor in Citigroup, said Friday he donated $27 million in cash and goods to aid Palestinians.


http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?siteid=mktw&dist=nwtpm&guid=%7B382E0C07%2D3A91%2D4821%2DB2A5%2D133C8C9609 24%7D

[George Karras]

"An envoy for the Archbishop of Canterbury offered personally to collect the corpse of a Muslim man yesterday who has lain unburied for four days in Bethlehem's Basilica of the Nativity, which marks the place of Christ's birth."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=284106

Now lets see what the "God fearing" Jews do...

Yes, I must admit that I am quite one-sided and I pray to remain so, NO MATTER WHAT. I pray to ALWAYS be on the side of any innocent people that suffer in the hands of the evil ones, and on the side of my Pelestinian Orthodox Christian brothers, especially when I am in contact with people who continously affirm the on-going attrocities by our "allies", the Israelis...

Please forgive my one-sideness, but then watching the news, I see how the Jew-controlled media presents the other end of the spectrum, so me presenting a few facts is the least that I can do.

FORGIVE ME fellow Orthodox Christians... BTW some words ring in my ears non-stop:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat. I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink I was a stranger, and ye took me not in, naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, <u>Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.</u> And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. [Mat 25, 41-46]

In Christ,

The greatest sinner of them all!

[Moses Anthony]

Forgive me, but I'm becoming weary of the continual blaming of Israel, and calling it an evil and agressive nation, I've read posts claiming that the Palestinians had nothing but rocks to throw at the heavily armed Israeli Army, totally ignoring suicide bombers, or the tactics of Hamas when they were in Lebanon.

Prior to 1948 the Palestinians said nothing about statehood. What about the one continual personality in all this, Chairman Arafat. Has any Prime Minister of Israel ever said their one aim is total anniahilation of all Palestinian people. There's only one Jewish nation, that was attacked by several of her Arab neighbors and defeated them in six days. Tell me someone, would Arafat be willing to give land back to Israel if they occupied (the west bank) it as a result of war.

Has Israel done everything right in all of this, probably not. But where are the Arabs who consider the civilians in the dance clubs, on buses, in markets, or busy intersections to be innocent. The main problem I have is this; how can Orhtodox Christians , or Protestants say that Israel is no longer the chosen people of God. Not once in all her history has the Church known God to take any of His promises back. Abraham didn't act righteous all the time, but God made a blood covenant He has not taken back.

I do not have the answer to all of this. My high school homeroom teacher said, "compromise is something neither party wants." Believing that God is the Almighty Father, and not a son of man that he should lie or repent, and that all He has said will come to pass, Israel will be in sole possession of the land when it's all said and done. Without waiting for the movie, I read the Book.

[Razhden Guriadze]

Greetings in Christ,

I seem to be a bit confused. BTW? I don't know the meaning.

The Jews were told that they were "cut off" from the vine and a new branch had been grafted in. That in the "end time" they would be re-grafted into the vine. In other words when the Jews accept Christ, learning from the Christians, then they will be grafted back into the vine.

Looking at the jewish history I can see why God made them His "Chosen People". He knew that if He could save them He could save anybody.

God loves us all and is very willing to let us sink to the point where all we have left in our world is to say ,"God help me!". And then He will.

In any confrontation all sides are guilty.

A challenge is made. If it is not picked up by the other side there is no confrontation. Yes, sometimes that mean that one group is overtaken by another, but there is no confrontation.

You cannot fight that which will not fight. You cannot win against a foe which does not mind dying.

God save us all,
ICXC
Razhden

[Monachos.net]

Dear all, I would like to set one important ground rule for this thread:

&#40;1&#41; Please keep statements of dislike with Israel or Israeli foreign policy just those: statements about Israel, not &#39;the Jews&#39;. Jewish issues, as religious issues, can be addressed in their own light; but thinking to attribute the current political activity of that nation wholly to &#39;the Jews&#39; is as inaccurate and inappropriate as attributing the recent activities in Serbia to &#39;the Christians&#39; or &#39;the Muslims&#39;.

With thanks.

[Richard McBride]

Wisdom! Let us attend!


“In any confrontation all sides are guilty.”

“You cannot fight that which will not fight. You cannot win against a foe which does not mind dying.”

We Orthodox ignore the example of the Copts, pretty much. They left the Patriarchal Churches in part due to the constant squabbling between Rome and Constantinople, and especially due to the machinations typical of the “Byzantines.”
They simply sought ways to find God and Walk the Way. Thus, when Islam began to seek its own sovereign territory, perhaps in the Eighth Century AD, it found the Copts were a pushover. They moved into Egypt easily, and eventually began slaughtering the Copts. There must have been vast numbers of Copts by then, for at one point a census was taken and the Muslims found that after slaughtering the unresisting Copts tirelessly, there still existed about six million of them.
Copts are with us still. Quietly they exist and multiply, still searching for God and The Way. I think these must be people very pleasing to God.

It is a difficult thing for a war-like people, as ourselves, to submit so entirely to the will of God. It is so difficult for Control Freaks to give up all that Control.

May we be found pleasing in the sight of God. May I give over my few small territories to the Lord, and stop using them as the cause for my crimes.

richard

[George Karras]

REQUEST FOR OUR PRAYERS
==================
I have thus far posted several messages expressing in several of them my emotional frustration of being unable to do anyhtring to help the innocent in Palestine. And then I received the forwarded e-mail and realized that I can do more of a very powerful gift that my Lord has enabled me to spread around. It is the humble prayers from the lips of a sinner. I THUS PRAY FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE INNOCENT IN THIS CONFLICT, AND GOD, BEING ALL-KNOWING, KNOWS WHO THE INNOCENT ARE AND HE WILL PROTECT THEM.

I also wish to provide all with this e-mai, it is an extarordinary one, more compelling than any I have read thus far. Its author &#40;Dr. Maria Khoury is a Greek-American Orthodox married to a Palestinian Orthodox--they live in the Palestinian village of Taybeh&#41; asks for our prayers.

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Ethnic Cleansing in the Land of Christ&#39;s Birth
By Dr. Maria C. Khoury

The slaughter of Palestinian people continues this week especially in the refugee camps in Jenin where Sharon is not willing to listen to the president of the United States and get out of the Palestinian territories. Sharon continues his campaign against terror by terrorizing over three million Palestinians with his brutal and inhuman tactics. Sharon is trying to clean out the Holy Land of all Christians and of all Muslims to make sure he not only guarantees a Jewish state inside Israel created in l948 but also in the Palestinian territories occupied in l967. The Oslo Peace Agreement that promised the Palestinians a homeland is absolutely dead.

Many people have a heard time understanding why Arafat gave up such a &#34;generous offer.&#34; That is all you hear in the international media, the Israelis are so generous and Arafat is the terrorist. Personally, the last six years I have been living here I just like to give you an idea what type of Palestinian state was giving to Arafat. I live in the village of Taybeh, it is marked area C, it will stay under the total control and occupation of the Israeli army because of the illegal settlements all around me although it is part of the territories occupied by Israel in l967. I need to go to school in Ramallah &#40;ten minutes away&#41;, marked as area A, turned over to Palestinians when the Palestinian Authority was given this generous offer following the l993 Oslo Peace Agreement. In order for me to travel from a Palestinian village under Israeli control to a Palestinian city under Palestinian control I must go through four checkpoints that means facing soldiers with guns daily and armored jeeps and tanks. The point is that the Israelis gave the Palestinians a bunch of different cities instead of a Palestinian homeland with Israel controlling the major roads in and out of those cities. Not to mention they control the airport and the seaport for import and export purposes. This might sound absurd to you, but please believe me it is easier for me to go to Athens roundtrip than to go to school and work everyday. I am about to loose my mind so I went to Athens this weekend to prove my point. I couldn&#39;t go to school anyway because currently it is a military zone.

The Israelis never intended to turn over East Jerusalem to the Palestinians either, which was occupied in l967. What does this mean. For me as a Christian, if I want to travel from my Palestinian village to the occupied old city of Jerusalem to pray on Sundays in the Holy Sepulchre, I am not allowed. And also, if Muslims wish to go and pray on Fridays at their religious Holy site, it is forbidden. The generous offer the Israelis gave Arafat was not practical at all because they wish to keep the 250,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank at their comfortable settlements that look like a suburb in Texas. While the settlers have the best of everything, the rest of us, for example, especially in the summer time, can go four days in a row, no running water while the settlements have water running twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. The other generous offer that Arafat was so foolish not to accept is each and every single time we need to travel out of the country we must have a piece of paper called a permit to travel to the airport to visit our family and friends in other countries. To get a permit is a nightmare and extremely time consuming. The last trip to Boston, took my father-in-law exactly three days in a row, from 8 am to 3 pm to obtain his permission to travel from our village to the airport at 74 years of age. Of course you never know anyone at anytime can really turn into a terrorist because actually we can&#39;t handle the prejudice, the racism and the injustice imposed by Israel on Palestinians.

The other &#34;generous offer&#34; Arafat refused to accept are all the Palestinian refugees that were forced out of their homes and their lands in l948 and l967 did not have a right to return. While please bear in mind that any Jewish person living anywhere in the world has a right to return to Israel even if they never had a home there at all. Does this sound fair to you? Is this just? Why can Jewish people return to Israel and the Palestinian people forced out of their home in l948 in Jaffa and still holding the key to their front doors do not have a right to return. Why are the Israelis above the law? Don&#39;t both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to exist? Why do the Israelis get extra privileges? Are we not all part of the human race?

Do you understand the difference between September 11th and resistance to occupation? September 11th was a pure act of violence, a total crime against humanity. The seventeen year old Palestinian girl that blew her self up in Jerusalem, killing innocent people &#40;that we do not condone and we are strictly against such suicide bombs&#41; is in fact giving a desperate message to the world. She does not have apache helicopters and tanks and guns to ask for her freedom and independence thus she gives the only precious gift God gave her, life itself to resist occupation and seek freedom and independence for her country. If people had a homeland and future they would not go and blow themselves up. But they are deprived of each and every single right that the rest of us take for granted. Occupation is the root cause of this terrible violence happening in Israel.

In this great and holy Orthodox lent, my point is not to help you understand suicide bombers, maybe you can&#39;t unless you live with them and see their suffering and their daily struggle. I would like to leave you with the message that God calls each and every ones of us to serve Him and give glory to Him while we live here on earth. If God gave you power use it to help the unfortunate. If God gave you education, use it to help others understand. If God gave you money, help the poor. If God gave you great wealth and materialism, feed the hungry. God asks us to use our gifts and talents to bring Glory to Him who gives us eternal life. As ethnic cleansing takes place in the Holy Land, pray for God to show His mercy and pray that we may have strength to bear witness for Christ in the Land of His birth. <u>I give up asking you to contact your government officials because we are experiencing a massacre of the worst type and no one seems to be able to stop it. I only ask for your prayers. God will listen and peace will come to the Holy Land.</u>

[George Karras]

I just received this and thought it was worth reading...

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This is written by Mother Agapia &#40;formerly Sr. Maria Stephanopoulos&#41;. She was just tonsured to the small schema and received a new name. She mailed it to Fr. John Reeves &#40;State College, PA&#41; who sent it to us.

In Christ, Juliana Thetford

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April 15, 2002 AN APPEAL to the Orthodox Christian Women of America

Dear Sisters,

I am a nun of the Convent of St. Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem &#40;Gethsemane&#41; and am responsible for the administration of the Orthodox School of Bethany, a school for Palestinian girls just outside Jerusalem.

We have a small boarding section and care for Orthodox children from Beit Jala and Beit Sahour, towns located next to Bethlehem. Many of the sisters of our Convent are from Beit Jala. I am not spreading propaganda but am simply reporting what has been happening to friends and acquaintances of mine -- Christian women, women with children, with elderly parents to care for, women such as yourself who are now suffering greatly here under siege from Israeli forces.

The situation has degenerated here so much, so quickly that I can&#39;t possibly recount all the horrors going on. I&#39;ll start with the latest event. Dr. Hala K. is an Orthodox Christian woman from Beit Jala. Her husband, Dr. Nasser K. works at the Husseini Hospital in Beit Jala and is a former president of the Orthodox Club of Beit Jala. A few hours ago I got off the phone with Hala. She had just returned from a clinic her and her husband have in Bethlehem, not far from Manger Square, near the Lutheran Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church of the Virgin Mary. Hala and Nasser had received news that the clinic they operate had been damaged by Israeli soldiers, so taking advantage of the fact that the Israelis had lifted the curfew for a couple of hours and people were free to leave their homes, they raced to the clinic. They did so even though they had to leave their children home alone &#40;Israeli soldiers have entered their new home in the middle of the night three times in the last month, once stealing all the money from the house, and another time strafing the house with gunfire, miraculously only slightly wounding one of their daughters&#41;. When they arrived at the clinic - what they saw crushed them. Hala, in a voice more full of shock and absolute amazement at man&#39;s inhumanity to his fellow man than any feelings of revenge or anger, described to me over the phone what she found:

The clinic is in a building that houses other professional offices, doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc. As they raced to their offices they could see that the doors of all the various offices had been blown open. They entered their clinic, the door had been blown open with some sort of explosive device, the waiting room had bullet holes all over the walls, the rooms were in a shambles, the soldiers had defecated on the floors and most of the equipment had been damaged. Most painful of all to Hala &#40;she is trained as a gynecologist and in fact when she was first married she had an opportunity to study at Columbia University in New York City, but the newlyweds chose to stay in Palestine&#41; was that the soldiers had destroyed her ultrasound machine, a machine that cost $20,000 and was used in her care for pregnant women. During the last two weeks while the Bethlehem area has been under siege three of Hala&#39;s patients have delivered their babies - AT HOME, it was impossible for them to reach a hospital or for a doctor to reach them because of the Israeli tanks and jeeps in their streets. Fortunately in her cases the babies and mothers have survived though there have been complications. There are reports that some newborns have died during these past two weeks in Bethlehem because they were unable to receive medical attention. Nasser and Hala have four children ages 5 to 16.

They now live in a beautiful new home on the eastern side of Beit Jala, near Talitha Kumi Lutheran School. The last time I was able to visit them, about one and a half months ago, they were proudly and busily planting flowers and shrubs around their new home. &#40;Over the past year and half their original home in the center of Beit Jala near the Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas has been peppered with bullet holes, shattered windows and water tanks, and an outside staircase blown threw by an Israeli shell. Many of the homes on that street have suffered a similar fate. Nasser&#39;s elderly mother and a single sister are still living in a home in that part of Beit Jala, as is the family of three of our boarder girls and the elderly mother and a sister of one of our nuns. For over two weeks now -starting Saturday March 30, the day before Western Easter, these people in Beit Jala, Beit Sahour and Bethlehem have been confined to their homes, as Israeli tanks and jeeps parade the streets. From a number of sources there I heard that two days ago the soldiers announced that people could leave their homes for two hours to try and buy provisions. Barely half an hour after the time of the supposed lifting of the curfew the soldiers began shooting tear gas into the people in the market area.&#41;

I first came to know Hala after her original home which is near to the home of one of our nuns was damaged by Israeli gunfire back in October, 2000. During the past year and a half I did what I could to help the people of Beit Jala. One project was to help Hala and a number of other Orthodox Christian women in the town who had voluntarily devoted their time to establishing an after school program for the children in Beit Jala. They found a building they could rent and established a library and an area for games, music and arts and crafts activities for the kids. They are trying to keep the program going twice a week after school and every day during the summer. During the time of the conflict here it has been hard to raise funds to hire a young person to co-ordinate the programs as well as pay the rent and fund the activities. They only ask for five shekels &#40;about $1&#41; a month from each child, and often waive the fee for those that can&#39;t pay. About 80 children participate in the program. Needless to say there have been no activities for the last month because of the Israeli army incursion into Bethlehem. I have attached photographs of some of the women involved in the program &#40;all have been confined to their homes for the last two weeks, lucky if once every two days the Israelis let them step outside for a couple of hours to run to a store for food and medicine&#41;, as well as some photos of damage done over the past year and a half by Israeli troops to homes of people in Beit Jala.

Two more bits of information I received today.

I was informed by a friend that a 24 year old Christian woman with a one year child was shot dead by Israeli soldiers this morning. She was the relative of a woman we know who runs the Spafford Center, a facility for special education, some of our boarders take classes there.

This morning I was able to reach by phone Simon S., a friend from Beit Sahour, who has done many construction projects for our Convent and School as well as many other Christian institutions in the Jerusalem area. An Orthodox Christian and the father of five children, including a teen-age daughter and two teen-age boys &#40;more fluent in Greek than I &#40;!&#41;, they attend the Jerusalem Patriarchate school in Shepherd&#39;s Field and have visited Greece twice&#41;, Simon is the kind of man that one would describe as &#34;the salt of the earth.&#34; Besides the work he is hired to do he is always ready at any time to run and help any hapless nun who calls him, &#34;Simon, the water pipe broke.&#34; &#34;Simon, we can&#39;t fix the door handle.&#34; &#34;Simon,.&#34; and before you hang up the phone Simon is there to help. Not forty years old and as meek a man as you will ever meet, Simon was nearly killed during the last Intifada &#40;late 80&#39;s to early 90&#39;s&#41; when Israeli soldiers dragged him out of his car and beat him badly. His only crime was trying to get home from work, but foolish him, the Israelis had said the curfew had already begun and what was he doing driving around. After that experience Simon&#39;s constant prayer and a hope that he often relates to us is that he will live long enough to see all of his children reach adulthood &#40;the youngest is four&#41;.

Ever the eternal optimist when I spoke to Simon two days ago he was sure that things would be better and somehow he would be able to get to Bethany on Monday to do some work for us. Simon is scared now. I could only talk to Simon on the phone today -- he didn&#39;t make it to Bethany today and we don&#39;t know when he will. He sits huddled in his home in Beit Sahour &#40;Beit Sahour is Shepherd&#39;s Field-here lived the shepherds who heard the angels announce Christ&#39;s birth and even today 2000 years later their descendants live in this town, men as gentle and hard-working as those shepherds of Christ&#39;s time&#41; with his wife and children, praying that the Israeli soldiers will not enter his house or that some emergency will force him to leave the house. He knows to well what can happen. Saud El Hayet is a man like Simon, a kind man Simon called him, an Orthodox Christian man with five children from Beit Sahour .. . Saturday Saud got in his car when the Israeli soldiers said the curfew had been lifted to try and get some provisions for his family. As he was driving towards his home soldiers were on the road, Saud was scared and turned his car from the soldiers - they shot him dead. A 60 year old woman, a neighbor witnessed it all, and shocked by the horror of the act, died there on the spot. These are women and men just like you or I and NOW they are in dire need of your help -- as an Orthodox Christian woman living in the Holy Land I appeal to you to use all your resources to help them.

Get on the phone and ask your Congressmen and Senators why the United States government is backing this invasion of Israeli forces into sovereign areas, why so many innocent civilians are being terrorized in their homes, their towns and livelihoods being destroyed by the Israeli government all in the name of stopping terror?

Ask your representatives why are Israeli forces being allowed to damage Christian churches all in the name of fighting terror? I know for a fact that many Palestinians have been seeking refuge in churches, not only the Church of the Nativity. For the most part they are not &#34;terrorists&#34; but policemen and parishioners of these churches, husbands and brothers trying to defend their homes.

From information we have, only seven of the men in the Church of the Nativity could be considered dangerous or &#34;wanted men&#34; by Israel. The majority, both Muslim and Christian, are men of the Bethlehem area, well-known to the clergy inside the Church. Men taken in by the clergy because they know that they are people only trying to defend their homes from an occupying force.

Once this bloody incursion finally ends many here will be in dire financial straits, not having work, and having many expenses as they try to rebuild their damaged homes, businesses, etc. I hope at that time the Orthodox Christian women groups in the US will be generous in providing assistance to their fellow Christians in the Holy Land who are suffering tremendously now.

And above all pray. As I hear from friends from Bethlehem, Ramallah, etc and see the wanton destruction that has gone on, I and they have no rational explanation for why all this is taking place. The destruction being carried out by the Israeli forces now makes no sense and will certainly not bring them any security. My only comfort is that as I try to stay in contact with friends now under siege I marvel at how meek, humble and long-suffering they are in the midst of their trials. I think of F.S., an acquaintance from Ramallah, an elderly man now, who is considered the dean of Palestinian lawyers, sitting penned in his home, listening in his home that lies just around the corner from the main street of Ramallah where his legal offices are, listening as the Israeli tanks and helicopters carry out the destruction of the town he has lived in for the past fifty years.

And when I call this distinguished, capable man barred by twenty-year old soldiers &#40;most likely immigrants from Ethiopia or Russia&#41; from walking the streets of the city he has known as home for far longer than those soldiers have been alive, he speaks meekly and matter-of-factly: no, no water running, just a little left in the tanks, but he is grateful, the Israelis gave them two hours to go out for food, though he laments, no fresh bread, the bakeries &#40;those not destroyed&#41; had no time to heat their ovens. And in his sweet, quiet voice the man who can outwit anyone in court knows no legal argument, no rational mind will help now, and he gently finishes our conversation, &#34;Thank you for calling habibie &#40;dear one&#41;, and pray, all we can do his pray.&#34;

So please you too pray for all the good people of Palestine, people that are no different than me or you.

From: &#34;Fr. John Reeves&#34; To: &#34;Srs. Martha & Maria&#34; Subject: Re: Verification Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:47:49 -0400 Mother Agapia: Please pray for me. I will continue to try to get the attention of church authorities here in the states to the atrocities taking place. Thank you for whatever you might be able to do.

Blessings, Fr John

[Gregory Orloff]

God Most High,
Maker and Ruler of All,
King of heaven and earth!
Hear us as we take up the words
of Your holy Psalmist David
as our very own heartfelt cry:
&#34;Why do the nations rage?&#34;
For troubling times have beset us,
and evil-minded predators rule the day,
waging war, hunting down prey and wreaking havoc
without discrimination or fear of recrimination.
They place Your name upon their lips
and make claims of faith to justify their deeds,
but the fruits that they bear betray them
and reveal that they have no part with You.
They dishonor and despise Your image
in human beings whom You have created.
They desecrate the soil that You hallowed
with the life, death and resurrection of Your Christ.
They take life and show no regard for it
where You poured out Your Spirit, the Giver of Life.
Rise up, Lord! Save us, God!
Foil the designs of the powers of darkness.
Frustrate the plans and schemes of evildoers.
Uproot hatred and ignorance from the hearts of all.
Dispel the delusions of those blinded by falsehood.
Open the eyes of all to their own sinfulness
and move them to heartfelt and humble repentance.
Help the helpless.
Shield the innocent.
Rescue the defenseless.
Feed the hungry.
Nurse the sick and injured.
Spare the children and the aged from hardship and violence.
Deliver the poor on all sides from afflictions.
Protect the well-being and integrity of Your Church.
Have mercy on the living and the dead.
Preserve the good in goodness
and make the evil be good by Your goodness.
Bring an end to this strife and senselessness,
for left to our own devices, we are at a loss!
Let Your truth, light, grace and love abound among all
so that all peoples may recognize that You are Lord,
You, the everliving and lifegiving triune God --
Father and Son and Holy Spirit --
now and ever, and for ages and ages.
Amen.

Gregory Orloff

[Thomas Trout, USA]

Hi everyone:

I heard that parts of the first service in the church of the Nativity after the end of the stand off were televized. Does anyone know if there are online versions of this service? I&#39;d like to watch it.

Also... I have heard conflicting stories about the service. Sometimes I hear that it was &#34;just a normal service&#34; in the church. Other times I hear that it was a &#34;reconsicration service&#34; for the church after its defilement. Does anyone know which is the case?

[George Karras]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Thomas, I do not know about the TV source / web site, however here are some details on the latest:

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2002.05.13 Telegraph:

Reconsecration for the Church of the Nativity

By Alan Philps in Bethlehem
&#40;Filed: 13/05/2002&#41;

INCENSE vied with the smell of cleaning fluid yesterday as Mass was celebrated in the Church of the Nativity for the first time since the end of the Israeli army&#39;s 38-day siege.

Monks had worked round the clock to clean up the fifth century basilica of the debris left by more than 100 Palestinian gunmen and civilians who had slept on the floor for five weeks.

The Greek Orthodox Patriarch, Irineos I, the senior churchman in the Holy Land, held a reconsecration Mass before 300 worshippers to signal the return of the shrine built over the birthplace of Jesus to its proper function.

A reconsecration was deemed necessary as the basilica had been used as a mosque by the occupants, who held communal prayers five times a day in the nave. The armed men also kept their guns and used them on occasion, in defiance of the Christian tradition of sanctuary.

In the Roman Catholic church of St Catherine, a 19th century structure built beside the ancient basilica, Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, the Pope&#39;s envoy, opened his address with the Arabic and Hebrew words for peace - salaam and shalom.

&#34;The manger of Jesus Christ has suffered for long. We pray to God to help us reach the real roots of peace which are in the heart of every human being,&#34; he said.

But the Latin Patriarch, Mgr Michel Sabbah - the senior Palestinian Catholic cleric - placed the blame on the Israelis. &#34;As long as the root of evil is there, the violence will stay,&#34; he said. &#34;The root of evil is the Israeli occupation.&#34;

Israelis and Palestinians, he said, must &#34;show courage and pull out the roots of evil and put an end to the occupation&#34;.

The damage to the Christian holy place appeared to be quickly repaired. There was a new lock on the main gate of St Catherine&#39;s church to replace the one shot off by the gunmen who fled the Israeli advance on April 2.

But the town of Bethlehem was still a miserable sight. Israeli tanks have crushed pavements and mown down lampposts and electricity poles. The alleys of the old city are filled with cars shot up or flattened by armoured vehicles.

The mayor of Bethlehem, Hanna Nasser, estimated the damage to public buildings, streets and utilities at £3.5 million.

Throughout the town soldiers have painted crosses by the doors of houses and shops to mark those they have searched for weapons, wanted men and bomb factories.

But there was no cross on the door of the surgery belonging to Dr Jadallah Najjar, an obstetrician, which was looted on April 22.

Dr Najjar said: &#34;I was performing a caesarean at the Holy Family maternity hospital when the neighbours opposite my surgery rang to say that an Israeli armoured vehicle had drawn up outside and the soldiers were breaking down the door.&#34;

As soon as the curfew was lifted he went to his surgery and found that a television set and video, a £17,000 ultrasound scanner and two rings owned by his assistant had been taken.

Dr Najjar said. &#34;I know the Israeli army. But I never expected anything like this to happen.&#34;

The army has indicted six Israeli soldiers suspected of looting and stealing money during the re-occupation.

[Owen Jones]

Does anyone know what jurisdiction Fr. Attallah Hanna is with? He was quoted in the official Dubai web site as the official spokesman for the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, but there are numerous jurisdictions represented there. He spoke in favor of Palestinian terrorism against Jewish civilians.

Owen Jones

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Owen,

I&#39;ve not heard anything of this Fr Hanna or his alleged statement of support for terrorism. It would surprise me if such were actually true, though it is certainly the case that there are many in that area who support the Palestinian cause -- without showing any support whatsoever for terrorist activities or philosophies.

INXC, Matthew

[Andreas Prodromou]

Dear Owen and Matthew:

The only official spokespersons of the Patriarchate are the Patriarch himself and Metropolitan Isychios &#40;if I&#39;m not mistaken on the name&#41;. I&#39;ve heard of a Fr. Hanna before &#40;a very outspoken Palestinian Archimandrite&#41; but I don&#39;t know if he&#39;s the one alleged to have made those statements.

Andreas

[Owen Jones]

Andreas,

Do you have an e-mail or web address for the Jerusalem Patriarch?

Owen Jones

[Andreas Prodromou]

Owen,

the URL is, http://www.jerusalem-patriarchate.org/ It seems to be available in Greek only right now. I remember seeing other languages in the past, don&#39;t know what happened in the meantime. There&#39;s a link entitled Contact which provides an online form &#40;in English and Greek&#41; for contacting the patriarchate. I heard from somebody who is with the JP in the US that a press release has been issued regarding the Fr. Hanna issue but haven&#39;t come across it yet.

Andreas

[Owen Jones]

Dear Andreas,

You might be interested to know that I heard from the patriarchate office in Jerusalem on this issue. They said that it was brought to the attention of the Patriarch personally. They asked me to try to get a copy of the article. As one might expect, when I requested this from Dubai.com I did not receive an answer. I don&#39;t want this issue to fall into a black hole and will likely try to place a call to the Patriarchate office in the near future. As for Mathew&#39;s question, this is not something I dreamed up. The fact that it is so outrageous and appalling a statement by someone who purports to be a spokesman for Orthodoxy should be cause for concern from any devout believer. But, sadly, this seems to be a common sentiment in the region. A recent meeting of Arab hierarchs, while not going so far as endorsing terrorism, took a pretty virulent anti-Jewish position. This is one thing, perhaps the major thing, that reduces Orthodoxy in the modern world to totally irrelevancy.

Owen Jones

[Cal Oren]

Here is a valid link to the article you are probably referring to:

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=55045 &#41;

I have heard recently that this Fr. Attallah Hanna has been released from whatever position he held. I have also heard that the Patriarch has stated that he has no &#34;official spokesman&#34; other than himself.

[Owen Jones]

Thank you, Cal. That&#39;s very good news to me. Let me know if you hear anything more on this subject.

[sinjin smithe]

There is another article posted today that talks more about that issue.

Jerusalem church spokesman sacked for supporting &#39;martyrdom&#39; (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28456)

[Moses Anthony]

The situatiion - with the Orthodox Church- in Jerusalem is difficult to understand, to say it mildly.
Several years ago there was vast displeasure with Metropolitan Spyridon, and several suppossed lay leaders &#40;GOAL&#41;petitioned and pressured until His Holiness Bartholomew replaced him. And now the community of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem proports to tell the Patriarch who their spokesman is, &#34;whether he likes it or not&#34;. To the Arab Orthodox the situation may be aggregious in Jerusalem; however, it seems from this perspective that zealots and bigots have kidnapped the faith and cast aside rules there. LORD HAVE MERCY!!!

tus
M.

[Owen Jones]

Well, James, I don&#39;t see an analogy between the recent removal of Spyridon, and the problem in the Middle East. The hierarchy is not immune to criticism by the laity, nor is it somehow magically protected from removal by lay pressure. There were a lot of very serious questions regarding Spyridon&#39;s stewardship, especially financially. It wasn&#39;t much different, frankly, than what we see in recent corporate malfeasance. I don&#39;t know anyone who thinks that the new Greek Archbishop is not an improvement. It is a false doctrine of ecclesiastical authority to see hierarchs as somehow immune from lay authority.

Regarding the recent statement from the Jerusalem partriarch and the response from Fr. Hanna, I think we see reflected a very serious dillemma for Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy in the East has for too long been held captive by political forces. The Church must be able to address the culture but from a point that is external to political pressures. This has been the great gift of Roman Catholicism to the West, and we should learn from that example.

Fr. Hanna&#39;s statements, if accurately quoted, reflect this captive spirit of the Church, and I am very pleased that the Patriarch made the decision that he did. But we have a long way to go.

One interesting sidebar to the problem in the Middle East is the fact that there is a small but vocal movement within Orthodox Judaism that is opposed to modern Zionism. Modern zionism is not a religious movement at all. It was a utopian socialist experiment. Modern Israel was founded as a secular, socialist utopia. Some Orthodox Jews believe that Israel is still suffering the punishment from God that it deserved for its apostacy, and that that situation will not change until the Messiah comes.

While there is plenty of injustice to go around in the Middle East, I think the question for Christian Orthodoxy is to escape the captivity of national ethnic identity politics, i.e. tribalism, which is the perpetual problem that the Jews have.

[Benjamin Ekman]

Dear Monachos forum,

My name is Benjamin Ekman. I have been 'lurking' on this forum for many months now. I have been greatly stimulated by the discussions. Posts by people like Matthew and Hieromonk Averky have been full of wisdom. I thought I would just say hi and thank you.

But I do also have a question:

What is the view of the Orthodox Church on the Jewish people? When I read the canons of the councils and the apostles I get the sense that Orthodox christians should stay far away from the jews. We should not be in any contact with them and their faith. It is seen as a terrible sin to even visit a synagoge. Hasn't this view of the jews as collectivly an unclean people helped the cause of antisemitism? How should our view of the jewish people relate to e.g. Romans 9, 10, 11. Especially 11:1-2.

In Christ,
Benjamin Ekman

[Andonis]

Hello Benjamin,

i can only speak for myself, in regards to your question, i growing up in a Greek Orthodox household was never taught that the jewish people where unclean. i was never taught to hate anybody. jews where like anyobdy else, made in the image of God and hence are subject to the same perils and ills as all people .

what was highlighted though, was the actions of the jews. here were a group of people, whom had close genetic links with some of the most devout beleivers, whom God showed tremendous mercy and love towards and saved them from bondage. the jews spoken about in the new testament, grew arrogant and self righteous. they began to place God in the market place. because externally they where able to adhere to rituals and laws, they used this as leverage to exploit and manipulate and the weaker and unenlightened. they used the status of their great spiritual ancestors as anchorage in that they &#34;being the chosen people&#34;, where given the right by God himself to use their legalism in a menacing and callous way. this culminated of course in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, because he threated to relinquish them from their wordly power and status.

what we where taught mostly was that we are to learn from these examples. today, there are many groups of people from many nationalities and cultures whom have acted like the jews of the new testament,or at least have the potential to act similarly. it is by no means an exclusive characterstic of jewish people, as it isn&#39;t for muslim or christian people. the lesson from this is that we must always be on guard lest the evil one fills us with pride and arrogance, even in regards to gifts bestowed on us by God. we must serve God in humility, we must be willing to sacrifice our own wordly possessions and status, if it means serving God.

to use such important lessons for humanity, which where written and preserved through years of martyrdom and persecution, as the scapegoat for feulling antisemitism i think is very near sighted. if we where to adhere to such logic, then we would have to avoid ever documenting the truth of somebody&#39;s crimes, in refernce also to the actual person &#40;people&#41; committing these crimes, in case this triggers prejudices and negative feelings towards the transgressor&#39;s ethnicity or culture. people whom are prone to hate will use what they can to justify it. some will use the new testament to hate the jews, others will use September 11th to hate the Arabs, or how about hating all Germans because of World war 2? its easy to find reasons to justify your hate. whats hard is learning to love and embrace all God&#39;s people and that is what we are commanded to do.

In Christ
Andonis

[Richard McBride]

Dear Benjamin

You said:
&#34;When I read the canons of the councils and the apostles I get the sense that Orthodox christians should stay far away from the jews.&#34;

Could you be more specific and say what precisely gives you this &#34;sense&#34;? Can you name works, passages and pages?

You also say:
&#34;We should not be in any contact with them and their faith. It is seen as a terrible sin to even visit a synagoge. Hasn&#39;t this view of the jews as collectivly an unclean people helped the cause of antisemitism? &#34;

From what do you receive these these impressions? Can you be more specific? I have never come across such notions among Orthodox people. There are rules about us participating in any other religions, any other than our own. And we have rules limiting others from participating in our services. Is this what you mean? These rules are no stricter than the rules in many Jewish temples, refering to &#34;non-believers&#34;.

And you mention whole chapters of Romans. It would help if you would point to precise passages which bother you. In the case of Rom. 11:1-2, you are being precise, and ask,
&#34;How should our view of the jewish people relate to ... Especially 11:1-2. &#34;

In Rom.11:1-2, Saint Paul&#39;s meaning seems pretty clear. But the Orthodox Study Bible adds:
&#34;11:1-10 Jewish unbelief in Christ raises the question whether God cast away His people? And the answer is &#34;no.&#34; For had He done so, He would have saved none of them. Paul himself, an Israelite, was not cast away &#40;v.1&#41;; and there is a remnant &#40;v.5&#41;, a minority, of Jews who choose to believe. Elijah testifies to this, for he thought he was the only one left &#40;vv.2-4&#41;! As only a few heeded Elijah in his day, so only a few heed Jesus, the Apostles and Paul &#40;9:27, 29; 1 Thes. 2:14-16&#41; in theirs.
&#34;God&#39;s grace saves the willing, not the unwilling: those who will receive grace by faith and obey God &#40;vv.5,6&#41;. Israel is not willing, for she seeks &#40;v.7&#41; righteousness on her own terms: through the works of the law, not through the grace of Christ. She stubbornly and freely hardens herself in unrepentance &#40;2-4&#41;. God does not cast the people away; they remove themselves. God has given them a spirit of stupor &#40;v.8&#41;.&#34;

Otherwise, be careful, Benjamin, in believing rumors; much less in acting upon them.
Ask specific questions, and people will be able to address them. Vague and heated accusations are simply piled up on the great heap of such things, even as those accumulating in the Near East at this moment.

God bless you, Benjamin.
CHRISTOS ANESTI

richard

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Benjamin,

I am not Orthodox and do not know the canons you refer to But I am aware of a few historical considerations regarding Jewish-Christian interrelationships as it is important to know them in my Lutheran/Jewish Outreach mission here in St. Louis MO.

Chrysostom preached a series of sermons which among other things forbade his perishoners to worship in Jewish synogogues -- but why would a Christian want to worship at a Jewish synagogue? and especially participate in such festivals and fasts as Passover and Yom Kippur. There is some evidence that boundaries between the two expressions of being God&#39;s chosen were not all that clear cut for the first few centuries among the laity in both groups and there were equally some rabbinic concerns about Jews worshipping in Christian Churches.

The history of Judaism from the Massada until the second world war has been dreadful, and the fact that nations made pariahs of them is partly what&#39;s behind such denigrating attitudes such as speaking vilely of them. This seems to be endemic to the human heart, to find some one or group to take one&#39;s frustrations out on.

The term &#34;Jew&#34; in the NT is not to be taken as it is in our period. In the Gospels, it refers to &#34;Judeans&#34;, i.e., those who lived in Judaea, as opposed to the Galil &#40;Jesus and the disciples&#41; or Samaria. All who were followers of what we would today call &#34;Judaism&#34; are referred to in the NT as &#34;Men of Israel&#34;. Actually, what we have today as &#34;Jewish&#34; is more specifically &#34;Rabbinic Judaism&#34;,the only other of school of Judaism besides Chrstianity that survived the Temple&#39;s destruction.

So, pray for the Jews, Jesus is the Peace of Jerusalem.

Richard Leigh

[Benjamin Ekman]

Thank you for the replies on my question. First of all I want to state emphatically that my post was not an attempt to point out Orthodox Christians as a specially anti-jewish community. Theese canons I refered to are a part of the tradition of the un-divided church. But in many protestant churchues there is a theology that says that the Jews still are in a covenant with God, not salvific but a covenant that is eternal. I am sorry if I sounded like an accuser.

The canons that I referred to are first the ones concerning the date of Easter. Why was the early Church so insistant on not being in any way connected with the Jewish Passover? Was the passover not the prophesy the shadow of Easter? In this issue Irenaeus had a relaxed attitude. He agreed that Pascha should always be celebrated on a sunday but he also agreed that the tradition of celebrating it with the jews had its origin from the apostle John.
Then we have the apostolic canon 65 that says that anyone that goes to a synagouge to pray should be deposed and excommunicated. I realize that a christian should go to a church to pray first and foremost. But Jesus went to the synagouge, the apostles continued to go to the jewish prayers in the temple after the Lords acension.
Other canons say we shouldn&#39;t receive holiday gifts &#40;unleavened wafers etc&#41; from jews. The 11th canon of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council says that we should not &#34;in any way become familiar with the Jews or call them in case of sickness, or take any medicines from them, or even bathe with them in public bathing beaches or bathhouses.&#34;

I am just trying to understand this issue. I am not trying to make a point. Maybe there were historical reasons for this very strict aproach against the jews.

How should we view the covenant made with Abraham? Was it eternal or was it superceded by the Church?

I am an unlearned boy af 20 years so please don&#39;t take theese questions for something they are not.

Christ is Risen!

Benjamin

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Benjamin,

I&#39;m so glad you posed these questions. First off, yes, you are right, these canons that are anti-Jewish &#40;not anti-semitic, we&#39;ll get to that in a moment&#41; have a historical basis only.

Next to point out the difference between &#34;anti-Jewish&#34; and &#34;anti-Semitic&#34;. This idea comes from the Jewish author, Max Dimont in his Jews, God, and History. To be &#34;anti-Jewish&#34; is to believe that the Jewish religion, i.e., current Rabbinic Judaism, is the wrong religion. To be anti-Semitic is to believe that there is something wrong with being of the Semitic, and not just Semitic, mind you, but culturally Judaic, race. Someone can do something about one&#39;s religion, one can convert. One can do nothing about one&#39;s race, it is genetic. It falls under the category of racism, a 19th or perhaps 18th century invention.

In a later post I will develop the erroneous two-covenant theory, but briefly, there can be no covenant that is both eternal and non-salvific.

Next: Times change, what was appropriate in one period of history my at some time cease to be appropriate. Yes, Jesus and the apostles went to the synagogues. They went there because that was the place for teaching/learning God&#39;s will for His people in Torah, and where prayers and thanksgivings were returned to him. For Jews, education, at least when it involves the words of God, is at least one form of worship.

Remember that Jesus is God, and did what God did. God went to the Jew first &#40;really, to Abraham, but you get the drift&#41;. Of all the nations in the world, only the Jews as a nation had an understanding of the a singular God &#40;YHWY, by the way, who turns out to have been the Logos of the Alexandrian Jewish philosopher Philo, and of the evangelist and theologian John. So, as scripure says, &#34;Salvation is of the Jews&#34; to quote Jesus&#39; statement to the Samaritan woman at the well. As did God originally, so He continued to do in Christ, He went first to the Jews. And so did the apostles. Even after their commission to &#34;go out into all the world&#34; they started in Jewish synagogues. But Jesus had predicted that they would be thwn out of the synagogues, and, they were, just as predicted.

This happened seven times to the apostle Paul himself, as an example the basic apostolic pattern of evangelism. In those days, btw, the synagogue was not as strictly organized as it later came to be. It was run by a lay president, and there was a sexton. The president called on whomever he chose to read for the congregation, any visitors to bring news from afar, and someone to lead in the prayers. This latest was the function of &#34;messenger of the community&#34;, and if you get a connection between this and &#34;the angel of the church at_____&#34; in Revelation &#40;Apocalypse?&#41; 2, you will be close to the derivation of the office of &#34;bishop&#34; as espoused by Ignatius. You&#39;ll also see that by the time of that writing, late nineties, which means more that twenty years after the destruction of the temple, and somewhat after the Rabbinic council of Jamnia where the OT canon was decided upon &#40;deciding against the Greek translation the Christians were using &#41;, adding a petition against &#34;the minim&#34; &#40;i.e., &#34;heretics&#34; -- including, if not solely the Christians&#41;and generaly deciding to kick them out of the synagogue...you;ll see that the Theologian refers to the Christians as the true Jews, and the others a synagogue of Satan. This is also the time that Clement, in his epistle to the Corinthians points out the Christian alalogue to the Jewish temple hierarchical Levitical order, with bishop as high priest &#40;John had vested exactly as the high priest when he officiated episcopally at Ephesus&#41; elders &#40;presbyters&#41; as priests, and deacons as Levites.

I said all that sut to show that divergence was happening between the Jews who beleived that Jesus fulfilled their Messianic hope and the Jews who did not believe that, who were, within Judaism the vast majority &#40;so that the rest could be &#34;the remnant&#34; God has promised there would always be&#41;. The Gentiles, on the other hand came to the Jewish Messiah &#40;Christ&#41; in droves and their numbers outstripped those of the Hebrew nation. And so it went.

I would not say that the church &#34;replaced&#34; Judaism, I would say that Judaism as God had always intended continued as the church which St. Paul pictures as a Cultivated olive tree with most of its branches pruned off with many wild olive shoot branches grafted on. Others would say, &#34;Well, it looks like those wild branches &#39;replaced&#39; the cultivated one, that&#39;s what &#39;replaced is!&#39;&#34;

Something important to know about the Passover:

The Jews of the first century CE &#40;Jewish for AD&#41;
&#34;knew&#34; that &#34;the millenium&#34; had come and that it would bring the Messiah, sometime within the last two thirds of that century. They fully expected him to be revealed at Passover. This in fact occurred, though obviously not exactly as most of them &#40;if any&#41; had expected. Well, the Passover was instituted to commemorate the once for all only real Passover which marked the children of Israel&#39;s release from Egypt. These commemorations were to continue until &#34;the end&#34; had come, an end, we must be aware, brought about by the arrival of &#40;you guessed it&#41; the Messiah! The Passover at which Jesus the Messiah announced fully who he was and what he&#39;d come for and provided the means by which his followers could participate in that was the final passover for the Jews. It had become something else, for such Jews who you might say were energized to participate in it &#40;i.e. graced with the faith to believe unto eternal life, which means, always with Jesus&#41;. Note that the Passover celebration is a [i]family event at which the head of the family &#34;officiates&#34; as the family&#39;s &#34;high priest&#34;. Well the Christian &#34;synagogue&#34; is a family, of which the bishop is its &#34;father.&#34; But remember that the Jewish Passovers are now fulfilled at the original Maundy Thursday, thereafter we might say, Jesus is revealed &#34;at the breaking of the bread.&#34; Whenever &#40;the family is gathered in his name etc.&#41;

It is important though to keep clear on the differences, and too many people can get confused by some of the details, just as Adam&#39;s wife and he were decieved &#40;or not&#41;in the Garden, so, in this life it was thought better to maintain the distinctions clearly.

The modern synagogue is much too organized for any of us to go in and take the bema and proclaim Christ, as Paul had been invited to do in the first century. Now, we need other tactics to bring Christ to his people in the flesh.

Yous,

Richard

[John Curtis Dunn]

Benjamin Ekman welcome to this forum? Is this the first Orthodox Christian forum you have followed on the web? Does your interest and quires arise soley because of seeing a discreprency between what Orthodox Christians have said and what other kinds of Christians have said or written? How much experinece with Protestants and their theologies do you have? Did your interest towards what these Protestants have to say originate from hearing something you heard them say about the present nation of Israel?

You referred to a Protestant teaching about the covenant with the Jews. You noted specifically: &#34;not salvific but a covenant that is eternal.&#34; I am interested in which Protestants you have encountered?

Orthodoxy would also say there is a continued Covenant between the Jews and God, however, those who would be identified as being Jewish members of that Covenant are not simply to be identified by any outward marks, such as circumcision. The Orthodox Church identifies two kinds of Jews, those who believe and become members of the Orthodox Church and those outside of that same Church. These latter Jews are not identified with the Covenant of God, since they have not believed that this Covenant has its fulfillment and continuance in Jesus Christ and His Orthodox Church.

You wrote that you are only a twenty-year old unlearned boy, but your questions betray someone who is something other than ignorant.

The Church was not opposed to the Jewish Passover, rather, it knew that that Passover was fulfilled in the Passover of Passovers, or Pascha of Paschas &#40;our Orthodox Passover&#41; which was actualized in the Passion &#40;death&#41; and Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The concern of the Church was that the Resurrection of Christ was not being celebrated in Unity. With this concern, there was also the concern that certain Christians were being led away from the faith by their celebrating Pascha &#40;The day of Resurrection&#41; on the day which the Jews celebrated Passover...which was a day of death, not of Resurrection.

The unbelieving Jews denied that Jesus was the Christ, many also denied the Resurrection, which of course is also to deny Jesus is the Christ. If you have read how the Apostles went to the Synagogues, you also know that they often were kicked out because they preached the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Orthodox Christians can have no worship/prayer with those who deny the Resurrection of Christ. This denial also includes all those who deny that Jesus was the Only-begotten Son of God. It also applies to those who deny the Virgin Conception and Birth of Mary the Mother of Jesus and those who deny that She &#40;The Ever-Virgin Mary&#41; is the very Mother of God &#40;birth-giver&#41; in the Flesh.

The teaching of our Orthodox Faith concerning our relationship to the unbelieving Jews or those in some hetrodoxical form of Christianity, is to guard the purity of the faith of Orthodox Christians. The purity of the Faith is kept by the Church as a whole, but certain persons are suspect to having their faith corrupted by the teachings of those who are outside of Orthodoxy. These may then affect many others with their own thoughts concerning the faith and alter the minds of simple Christians.

Many today are simple towards the Jews, making no distinction between the faith of Jews, Protestants, Roman Catholics and even Muslims and Buddhist. These Canons protect the simple minded who are easily confused by conflicting arguments used by those outside our Orthodox Faith to convince them that our Orthodox Faith is not true or pure.

Certainly there is more to these matters, but the deeper theological matters cannot be discussed without prior preperation which the Church gives to those who seek to be united with her.

john

[Benjamin Ekman]

I love the Gospel of Luke. Especially theese &#39;canticles&#39; in the first chapters:

Zacharias: Luke 1:68 Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began, 71 That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham: 74 To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. 76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God, With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us; 79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace.

Mary the Theotokos: Luke 1:54 He has helped His servant Israel, In remembrance of His mercy, 55 As He spoke to our fathers, To Abraham and to his seed forever.

Simeon: Luke 2:29 &#34;Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation 31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, 32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.&#34;

I think theese verses point to a deep understanding of a special relationship between God and Israel. And in the words of the Theotokos: &#34;To Abraham and to his seed forever.&#34; I do not dare to propose what this relation amounts to, but can&#39;t we at least be sure that it exists?

John Curtis Dunn:
Yes this is the first Orthodox message board that I visit. I have been coming here for many reasons not just to see the differences between different theologies. My main concern is to further explore Orthodox theology. I am myself an protestant so I have been in contact with almost all kinds, from charismatics to high-church anglicans.. Your explanation of the ancient church&#39;s concern with a unified celebration Pascha was helpful and sounds logical.

Richard Leigh:
Your post were very informative. I can see that you have thought about theese matters a great deal. How do you do missionary work among Jews? How do you go about it? The Vatican has lately said that they &#40;the Catholics&#41; will stop doing missions amoung the Jews, strange.

I&#39;m at work now so I have to run.

Benjamin
PS. When I wrote I was unlearned I wasn&#39;t trying to be falsly humble. Just a fact. High-school &#40;or gymnasium as we call it in Sweden&#41; is all I&#39;ve done this far...

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Benjamin,

John Dunn&#39;s post &#40;83&#41; was excellent regarding proper attitude toward the Jews. We are to love all people with the Love that the Father has for us in Christ Jesus, believer and unbeliever alike, that as many as will &#40;I mean &#34;as are going to&#34;&#41;, do come into the Faith &#40;and I don&#39;t mean this as though loving people had some ulterior motive of making any of them more like myself for my own satisfaction -- rather it is only to participate in God the Holy Trinity and what he is doing with and for all of us creatures of his&#41;.

Before I answer your question of what we do in our outreach ministry to Jews, because this is an Orthodox forum, read and participated in by Orthodox, and I am not Orthodox &#40;meaning hetero[=other&#41;dox], I feel a need to publish the following disclaimer:

John Dunn, in the post I mentioned rightly gave the concern of the church that people not be led astray by private opinions and faulty human reasoning. Eastern Orthodoxy has reason to believe that such has occurred and continues, thus causing and perpetuating the Western scism in general, which can be seen as resulting in the various reformations &#40;6 that I can think of, though the Spanish was stomped out by the Counter Reformation&#41;. Our mission is a Lutheran mission &#40;there are other denominational missions, such as the Anglican and the Assembly of God, earlier last century there was a Presbyterian, I don&#39;t know if it still exists; besides which there is a Union of Messianic [Believing Jewish] congregations&#41;. There are Jews who convert to Roman Catholicism and even Orthodoxy. An important thing to note for all readers of this post is the difference between the linguistic reference point in which our various world views are ensconced and supported, Greek and &#40;dare I say it?&#41; Barbarian &#40;an ancient Hellenic ethnic distinction analogous to the &#34;Israel&#34; and &#34;the Nations &#40;= &#39;Gentiles&#39;&#41;&#34; dichotomy. The difference is explained here:
&#62;http://orlapubs.com/AR/R142.html#paradigms&#60; &#40;a sight I&#39;ve referrenced on another post somewhere around here&#41;. It might be a little complicated, so simply put the difference shows itself in how we talk about our faulty relationship with God, i.e. , how we describe the Fall of Adam and thus how Christ is the remedy. Suffice it to say here that the west, following Augustine, sees the Fall in terms of broken laws and their just punish-ment, the remedy being the Sinless God-Man taking the place of sinful Adam &#40;=mankind&#41;on the Cross as sacrifice. This way of thinking/talking about it is quite Jewish except for the fact that the Rabbis are teaching that &#34;justice&#34; &#40;even of God&#41; by definition does not require more of a person than one can given.&#34; Hence, they point out that Justice and Mercy are two sides of the same coin. Also, the Jews agree with Orthodoxy regarding human free will &#40;though, we Lutherans insist that the Augustinian conept of loss of freedom of the will is only in relationship to God --- not that that caveat would spare us the charge of heterodoxy&#41;.

Having said all that, I will now answer your question. We have a two pronged approach. We produce time sensitive tracts we call &#34;broad- sides&#34; with specific Jewish associations done tongue in cheek to invite further thought and discussion of whether it might be true that Jesus &#40;Yeshuah&#41; is the Messiah the Jews had long expected. We poition ourselves at rallies and fairs where there will be lots of people in the likelihood that a number of them will be Jewish non-believers.

The other prong is our &#34;Messianic style&#34; worship service. It is actually a worked over Lutheran liturgy that opens with the Shema &#40;&#34;Hear O Israel, the Lord out God, the Lord is One&#34; --- painfully unaware, I fear, that YHWH, &#34;the Lord&#34;, is the second person of the Trinity, not the First, much less all three, except in that illimitable way in which each is present to both others&#41;I hasten to add that that is only my opinion, I do not speak for the Lutheran church here, I actually do not know what our teaching is regarding this, I only know the opinions of some of our parishoners and pastor; also, the Amida &#40;with some editorial changes&#41; is used for the prayer of the church&#41;.

Part of our worship/witness is the observation that the Scriptural Jewish festivals, being shadows of the One Who was to come, and by now [i]has come. Thus, we try to show how Jesus is spoken of in them, making connections of OT prophecy with NT fulfillment.

Every year we have an explanitory Seder service people are encouraged to invite their Jewish relatives and friends to, as well as an annual Hannucha and Purim parties. This latter has not taken off as well as the others.

We have as a subsidiary goal to educate the church in the Jewish roots of her faith.

Our Pastor is Jewish by birth and upbringing, converted to Christianity in a Lutheran church in Colorado. Our mission is sponsored by Apple of His Eye, which is under the Authority of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. Our congregation is specifically under the authority of the Board of Missions of the Missouri District of LC-MS. Apple of His Eye has a small numer of lay evangelists in various districts of Synod and we have close connection with Caspari Center, which recently moved its home office from Jerusalem to Chicago &#40;though they maintain a presence in Israel&#41;, I believe it has some connection with the Church of Noway, at any rate, its director Thorkild Masve &#40;sp?&#41; is a Norwegian Lutheran pastor.

Oh, and yes, we know that the Vatican has ruled &#40;a&#41; that Jews are saved on some basis other than the Gospel as we know it, and that therefor &#40;b&#41; it eschews active proselytism of Jews &#40;though of course warmly welcomes converts from Judaism to the &#34;fulness of the truth&#34; they see their communion as possessing&#41;. In fact, the Secretary for Eccumenical Affairs of the RC Archdiocese of St. Louis wants to talk with me &#40;unofficially, of course, and I with him!&#41; about what he considers the impropriety of witnessing Christ &#40;the Messiah&#41; to Jews. Not bowing to Papal principles or the will of the vatican is one of the things that make us Lutheran :-&#41;

Yours,

Richard

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Benjamin Ekman and others:

This is an important and difficult topic. The Orthodox approach to any subject cannot be understood apart from worship—and so it is necessary to look at relevant liturgical texts in order to understand honestly and fully the Orthodox attitude toward Jews.

Some of the most significant of these texts come from Great and Holy Friday. Here are some representative examples &#40;I apologize for the capitalization, which is as the words appear on the helpful Web site where I found them, http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/triodion/hwk_fri , thouh of course they will be familiar to anyone who has worshipped in the services of the Lenten Triodion&#41;:


GREAT AND HOLY FRIDAY MATINS

AFTER THE 11th GOSPEL:

APOSTIKHA
TONE 2

AN IMPIOUS AND TRANSGRESSING PEOPLE --
WHY DO THEY IMAGINE VAIN THINGS?
WHY DO THEY CONDEMN TO DEATH THE LIFE OF ALL?
O GREAT WONDER!
THE CREATOR OF THE WORLD IS BETRAYED INTO THE HANDS OF LAWLESS MEN.
HE WHO LOVES MANKIND IS LIFTED UP UPON THE WOOD,
THAT HE MIGHT FREE THOSE BOUND IN HELL, WHO CRY://
LONG-SUFFERING LORD, GLORY TO YOU!


THE THIRD HOUR &#40;psalms 35, 109 and 51&#41;

VERSES OF THE PROPHECY

TONE 5

WHEN YOU WERE RAISED UPON THE CROSS, LORD,
YOU CRIED OUT TO THE JEWS:
FOR WHAT DEEDS DO YOU CRUCIFY ME, MY PEOPLE?
IS IT BECAUSE I MADE YOUR PARALYTICS WALK?
BECAUSE I RAISED THE DEAD AS FROM SLEEP?
BECAUSE I HEALED THE WOMAN WITH THE ISSUE OF BLOOD,
AND TOOK PITY ON THE WOMAN OF CANAAN?
FOR WHAT DEEDS DO YOU SEEK TO KILL ME?
YOU SHALL LOOK UPON HIM WHOM YOU HAVE PIERCED,//
UPON YOUR MESSIAH, TRANSGRESSORS.


TROPARION OF THE THIRD HOUR TONE 6

LORD, THE LIFE OF ALL,
THE JEWS DELIVERED YOU OVER TO DEATH.
YOU LED THEM THROUGH THE RED SEA BY MOSES&#39; ROD,
YET THEY HANDED YOU OVER TO BE CRUCIFIED.
YOU FED THEM WITH HONEY FROM THE ROCK,
AND THEY REPAID YOU WITH GALL AND VINEGAR.
BUT YOU WILLINGLY ENDURED THESE THINGS TO FREE US FROM BONDAGE TO THE ENEMY.
O CHRIST GOD, GLORY TO YOU!


THE SIXTH HOUR &#40;Psalms 54, 140 and 91&#41;

VERSES OF THE PROPHECY TONE 8

THUS SAYS THE LORD TO THE JEWS:
MY PEOPLE, WHAT HAVE I DONE TO YOU?
OR HOW HAVE I OFFENDED YOU?
TO YOUR BLIND I GAVE SIGHT, YOUR LEPERS I CLEANSED,
THE PARALYTIC I RAISED FROM HIS BED.
MY PEOPLE, WHAT HAVE I DONE TO YOU,
AND HOW HAVE YOU REPAID ME?
INSTEAD OF MANNA, GALL; INSTEAD OF WATER, VINEGAR;
INSTEAD OF LOVING ME, YOU NAIL ME TO THE CROSS.
I CAN BEAR NO MORE.
I SHALL CALL THE GENTILES MINE.
THEY WILL GLORIFY ME WITH THE FATHER AND THE SPIRIT,//
AND I SHALL GIVE THEM LIFE ETERNAL.


So here—and in many similar texts elsewhere in the services with which Great Lent concludes—we find the Jews as a people being specifically held responsible for Christ’s death, and we find Him speaking to them of their betrayal of Him and telling them that He will turn away from them and replace them with the Gentiles. &#40;By contrast, these same liturgical texts are almost entirely silent on the ways in which we believers ourselves are responsible, through our own personal sins, for Christ’s suffering and death; the message is not that we have crucified Him, but that the Jews and Judas crucified Him.&#41;

I have to admit that I find these texts extremely painful, especially in the light of how they have sometimes been historically &#40;mis&#41;used to justify anti-Semitic violence, as in the case of one Jewish family I know well who fled the city of Bialystok, then in the Russian Empire, about a century ago because they and their Jewish neighbors were being attacked and killed by Orthodox believers following Great Friday services. &#40;It was that experience that brought them to the United States.&#41;

While remaining unchanging in its depths and in its doctrine, the Church has allowed its human members’ unfolding understanding of theological truth throughout the centuries to result in some changes in liturgical practice and in the introduction of new hymns and prayers from time to time. And so I wonder, in light of all that we know about the Church’s teachings and all that we now know historically about how those teachings can be twisted and misused &#40;recall that the Nazis used the very Gospels themselves to justify the policies that culminated in the Holocaust&#41;—I wonder if perhaps it is not time for the Church in its wisdom to reexamine some of these Holy Week texts and to consider changing or replacing some of them to reflect more adequately and accurately its understanding of Truth?

For example, I know at least one eminent Orthodox priest deeply versed in the history and practice of the faith who insists that such texts ought properly to be read to refer to the Jewish leaders and their particular followers, not to the Jews as a whole; I know also that Bishop Kallistos Ware, translator and editor of the authoritative English edition of the Triodion, urges us to read these texts as referring to ourselves. So why can’t these insights and refinements be incorporated into the words through which we confront Our Lord’s suffering and saving death anew each year? However differently they may have been understood when they were first written, many centuries ago, it is almost impossible not to read them now as holding an entire people perpetually guilty of the murder of God Himself, while allowing those of us who believe in Christ and worship Him as Orthodox to imagine that it is these others and not ourselves who have condemned and still condemn Him to the Cross.

I would welcome the insights and interpretations of others on this challenging and painful topic.

Yours in Christ,

Jurretta J. Heckscher

[The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official opinions of the Library of Congress.]

[Rebecca]

Bishop Kallistos Ware, translator and editor of the authoritative English edition of the Triodion, urges us to read these texts as referring to ourselves

Hi Jurretta,

It seems to me that if one were to take Bishop Kallistos&#39; words to heart, then the pain and difficulty one experiences when hearing the above quoted hymns, while participating in the Holy Friday services, would stem from a recognition of ones own sins, rather than from fear of criticism by others who make their own interpretation of the words.

It is also my recollection that one of the Saints said that if anyone interpreted any rebuke in the Gospels as being anything other than a rebuke against ourselves and our own sinfulness, then that person is wrong in their personal interpretation of said rebuke. &#40;unfortunately, I do not recall where I read it so I cannot provide the cite, this is from my memory only&#41;

I think the basis of the thesis provided in your post would lead one to also advocate rewriting the Bible. Some have done so, with an eye to gender-specific references.

I think that we are called instead to pray that God will shine the light of His knowledge into our hearts so that we can understand His wisdom. We are said to &#34;put on Christ&#34; in Baptism. We ask God to &#34;make radiant the vesture of our soul&#34; because we have no garment with which to enter into the bridal chamber. I think that all of these speak of a change within us, and require humility in our approach.

I think that without those things, one&#39;s intellect will wander over a set of writings &#40;any writings&#41;, and a vast number of interpretations will result, stemming from the human imagination.

[Andonis]

i agree with you Rebecca. for those that wish to call God&#39;s words into question, regardless of how you phrase the scriptures they will do so. the scriptures have a mystical power that transcends mere human logic, which focuses only on words and phrases and missess the divine message. we should pray that the holy spirit and the guidance of the church will enlighten us as to the essance of the teachings. or else lets just all re write the bible wherever it speaks harshly and truthfully giving painful testimony to real events. how about we change the word homosexual to people harbouring a fondness for people of the same sex, or adulterer to somebody that likes somebody elses spouse, in order to avoid triggering hatred and persecution by others. at the end of the day the bible calls a spade a spade. the jews where principally responsible for the crusifixion of Christ. this is a fact that should not be tampered with in any way. homosexuals, adulterers, prostitutes all then would have the right to change certain passages that speak possibly too harshly about their actions, and claim that they too have been persecuted because of the way things are phrased in scripture.

[Rebecca]

Andonis,

Thank you for your post. Having read what you said, I feel the need to say that if what I wrote above gave the impression that the Saint allowed for the idea that the Gospel did not describe actual events, that is the fault of my poor memory and careless phrasing. That&#39;s why I usually just post quotes! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Rebecca, Andonis, and others:

Christ is Risen!

Thank you both for your replies.

Please, let me clarify one point which may have been unclear in my earlier message, but which I want to state in the strongest terms: I am absolutely not advocating that we change one iota of Scripture! Absolutely not! As an Orthodox Christian, I fully and completely accept that the Bible is the Word of God, and I regard as genuinely tragic the misguided attempts of some who consider themselves Christian to make Scripture conform with human values.

I was, however, suggesting that perhaps it is time to reconsider some of the liturgical texts such as those cited in my earlier message. These are not Scripture!--they are the writings that the Church in its wisdom has chosen to incorporate into the worship that is at the heart of our Faith.

I accept that wisdom. I do know, however, that these liturgical hymns and prayers have undergone change--additions and sometimes deletions--across the centuries.

And so I am simply asking whether it is not time to reconsider some of the texts such as those I cited--not other texts from the Triodion or anywhere else; not the whole canon of liturgical prayer!--on the following grounds: do they in fact represent the fullness of the Church&#39;s teaching concerning the relationship between Christ and the Jews? Is there reason &#40;and perhaps there is not&#41; to be concerned about or to take some responsibility for how these texts have historically been used on occasion to justify persecution of Jews by Christians, such as in the experience of the Jewish family I know?

Certainly we ought to strive to enter ever more deeply into the wisdom of our Church&#39;s prayers. But at the same time, the true meaning of those prayers should not require elaborate explication by scholars or experts in order for it to be clear to the faithful.

So I completely agree with Rebecca&#39;s comments about the need to take these prayers personally, as I know Bp. Kallistos recommends. But I continue to wonder why that is not made clear in the services themselves--and why the clear and obvious meaning of these texts, though perhaps not the &#34;real&#34; one, is on the other hand the condemnation of the Jewish people as &#34;impious,&#34; &#34;lawless,&#34; &#34;transgressors,&#34; and so forth, and their rejection by Christ.

If that is what we mean first and foremost when we pray these words, then I will simply have to accept it and come to terms with it &#40;though as I said earlier, I have been assured by some far more learned in Orthodoxy than I that that is not in fact what these words truly mean&#41;.

But if their apparent meaning is not their primary or most important meaning, and if their apparent meaning has led some Orthodox into the evils of anti-Semitism, then why can&#39;t their primary or most important meaning be made clear, and the misunderstandings &#40;if such they be&#41; arising from them clarified?

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta Heckscher

[Rebecca]

why the clear and obvious meaning of these texts, though perhaps not the "real" one, is on the other hand the condemnation of the Jewish people as "impious," "lawless," "transgressors," and so forth, and their rejection by Christ.

You have said that this is the 'clear and obvious meaning'. I disagree with you.

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Rebecca, and others:

Your most recent message points to exactly the kind of help I was hoping to receive when I made my post &#40;whose primary purpose was after all to share my consternation about these texts rather than to advocate changing them&#41;.

I would love to be able to sing them &#40;as I do&#41; every year without believing that their clear and obvious meaning is as I have hitherto perceived it. So--your disagreement gives me hope: what do you see as their clear and obvious meaning?

&#40;Please forgive me if this sounds in any way combative, as I know a text message can sometimes--I don&#39;t mean it that way at all; I really am seeking guidance and insight from you and others on this issue!&#41;

Thanks for this and, I hope, further sharing of your thoughts. . . .

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Everybody,

I would like to point something out here. I am so grateful for Jurretta&#39;s work for us presenting all those liturgical texts.

Also, Rebecca&#39;s approach to those texts and those of Scripture is beautiful.

Please look those liturgical texts over in their entirety and then note that they compress the experience of the first century Jews over the period presented in the Gospels, Epistles and Revelation &#40;Apocalypse?&#41;, remembering always that the apostles and evangelists who wrote them were themselves sons of Israel. Remember that for all of us to be brought into our Lord is to be taken &#34;out&#34; of the nation &#40;and world even&#41; in which we are born, we are now &#34;born from above.&#34;

Be aware that in the Gospels &#34;Jew&#34; means &#34;Judaean&#34;, as opposed to Gallilean &#40;Gallilee was &#34;of the nations [=Gentiles]&#41;&#34; Hellenistic member of the Israelite diaspora

Anyone approaching those liturgical texts must do so in maturity, having imbibed the Scripures and the living experience they contain.

Doing so, we can see ourselves in those &#34;Jews&#34; that are so villified, as Rebecca suggests.

&#34;What have I done to you that you should reject me so?&#34; is the Lord&#39;s plaintive cry.

The Lord was persecuted when Saul &#40;later to become St. Paul&#41;persecuted the Church, Jesus had prophesied that &#34;they will throw you out of their synagogues,&#34; and so they did, and thus the Lord was rejected again.

But his response from the Cross is for always, &#34;Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.&#34; When they learn, they return, for they were the Lord&#39;s at first.

Should I be found having rejected a Jew today, I shall be found having rejected the Lord.

From this I pray the Lord to spare me.

Richard

[John Wilson]

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!

I thought it pertinent to quote what Matthew had posted in the thread on Pascha 2003 regarding the many references to Judas.


The Matins of Holy Friday speak especially prominently of Judas' betrayal of Christ. We must remember that, amidst and among the harsh words spoken of Judas in the hymns of the service, he is not a man merely to be condemned and cast aside. We are Judas more often than we would care to admit.

Why do we fast on Wednesdays and Fridays specifically? To constantly remind ourselves that we are no better than Judas and the Jewish authorities who betrayed and crucified our Lord.

John.

[John Kapetan]

Dear Richard Leigh:

I am just going through some mail trying to play catch-up, so if you&#39;ve already answered this, I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t get to the post yet.

The question I have regards your quote or paraphrase of Max Dimont in his Jews, God, and History. You wrote:&#39;To be &#34;anti-Jewish&#34; is to believe that the Jewish religion, i.e., current Rabbinic Judaism, is the wrong religion.&#39;

Is he basically saying ALL Christians are anti-Jewish?

In Christ,

John K

[Fr Averky]

Dear Juretta CHRIST IS RISEN!

In a very interesting sermon, St. Philaret poses the following question: Who
was responsible for the death of Jesus Christ? Was it the Roman soldiers? No,
they were just following orders. Was it the Roman Procurator? No, because as
seen in the Holy Gospel, he did everything he could to save the life of the
Saviour. Was it the Jews? No, because they could not put Jesus to death -they
had to rely upon Roman law to accomplish that end. Therefor, how is it that a
groups of people who would not or could not put the Christ to death all took
part in it? It happened in order that God&#39;s plan for the salvation of Mankind
coukd take place. I personally of a mind that while, yes, the Jews did say that
they would take the responsibility, it was not all of the Jews, it was hus
enemies, the proud Pharisees and Sadducees and Scribes, the &#34;educated&#34; people
who from the very beginning hated and plotted to kill Him. In the Gospeal
narratives when the phrase &#34;for fear of the Jews&#34; is used, again, I think that
it refers to those who hated the Saviour and always tried to discredit the good
that He did, not the every day citizen. The Disciples and those who followed him
were also Jews, and He walked in the land of Judea, healing the sick, raising
the dead, giving sight to the blind. It is common for Christian ministers and
priests to point out that on Palm Sunday, people greeted Christ with praise and
shouts of &#34;Hosannah&#34;, and yet a week later were shouting &#34;Crucify Him.&#34; Lately
I have found myself asking -were these indeed the same people? I rather think
that the enemies of Christ had gathered an unruly mob, perhaps even paying them
a few coins, to stand and shout against a Man who had never touched their lives.
Most assuredly those people whom he had fed along with the five thousand, who
had witnessed His miracles, who had received His love and mercy, like the man at
the pool, the man born blind, the man with the withered hand -would these have
gathered and demanded his death? We all know that we can never judge the
character of a nation by just a few bad people, so even though a few evil men
were willing to take the blood of the Saviour upon themselves, we have to most
importantly keep in mind that Our Saviour willingly died on the cross, not just
because of the evil of the Jews, but for the bearing of sins of all Mankind.
Just as government leaders make war in the name of their people, yet not all of
the people might have known why or agreed, still that nation as a whoke will be
held responsible. Let us not point the finger of accusation at one group, for
all of has sinned, and continue to sin, thus must we rely upon the mercy of God.
We are bound to love our neighbor, for he is created in the image of God.


Father Averky

[Andonis]

Hi Juretta,

you quote:But I continue to wonder why that is not made clear in the services themselves--and why the clear and obvious meaning of these texts, though perhaps not the &#34;real&#34; one, is on the other hand the condemnation of the Jewish people as &#34;impious,&#34; &#34;lawless,&#34; &#34;transgressors,&#34; and so forth, and their rejection by Christ.

A lot is not made clear during liturgical services. not just extracts referring to the jews. furthermore, liturgical texts i&#39;m sure where written with just as much spiritual insight, wisdom as was scripture, by very holy and pious people. this supposes a couple of things. one is that what is unclear, will be made clearer as one strives harder and harder to live a life in Christ.

furthermore, orthodoxy is rooted in tradition. liturgical texts are also steeped in tradition and preserved over the centuries unaltered. if the holiest of holy men, the saints, chose not to edit them then i think we have little ground to stand on in arguing to alter them now. Many of the saints where able to acurately prophesise future events. i&#39;m certain that they possesed the insight necessary to change liturgical texts themselves, if they felt that this would be in line with God&#39;s will. this they did not. and on the basis of their holy wisdom we continue to chant the liturgical texts as they where written, and shall likely go on doing so till the second coming. furthermore i still think its scape goating to even remotely suggest that any of the church writtings are resposible in any way, for the persecution of the jews. it is not our divine liturgical texts that are responsible for this, people are responsible for this. hence i don&#39;t see how it is fair to go and alter what is holy and pious and inspired by God, due to impious actions of people whose nature is in a fallen state.

as a second last point, if you agree that scripture should not be changed, aren&#39;t liturgical texts basically of form of chanting to express what already exists in the scripture? there fore if it represents the scripture, why should it be any different to the scripture, when you yourself say you do not want that altered with in the slightest?

as a final point, liturgical texts, speaking on behalf of myself anyway, are as sacred as scripture, therefore should not be tampered with. the old and new testament describe events which are personal, referring directly to people, or groups of people. there is a lot of divine mystery surrounding this. sure we could dampen the blow, by somehow changing the wording so that it doesn&#39;t so directly portray the jews of the era as being &#34;impious,&#34; &#34;lawless,&#34; &#34;transgressors,&#34; . but in depersonalising liturgical text, we may as well erase any mention of individuals, races and nations. we might as well make it faceless, and risk throwing out all the divine mystery it contains. this i at least am not prepared to do.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Jurretta,

On more than one thread I have tried to say that who are we to judge what the Church has taught or written or said in Her wisdom over the centuries. Jurretta, to put it quite bluntly, you don&#39;t have an &#34;opinion.&#34; nor do I, or anyone else for that matter when it comes to the teachings of the Church. As Rebecca and Adonis say, if we changed the text of the Holy Scriptures and the hymnography or even the hagiography of the Church evry time a particular group might be &#34;offended,&#34; then the entire Truth of the Holy Gospels and teachings of the Orthodox Church would be lost. Very recently, a new book has come out which is called &#34;The Word Police,&#34; which shows how the four major publishing houses of school text books in the United States are rendering the language used in these books to be so harmlesss and to be meaningless. It is now not &#34;correct&#34; to have women be mothers, housewifes, secretaries, cook, and so on - they must be firemen, farmers, architects, and so on. Old people cannot be called &#34;old, or &#34;elderly,&#34; and they cannot be shown sitting in a rocking chair, but smiling, healthy, and active. People cannot be called Asiatics or Hispanics, because that is is to &#34;specific.&#34; An article to have been read by students about the first blind man who climbed Mt. Everest was rejected because it &#34;demeaned&#34; blind people, not taking into account what a marvelous and brave thing he had done.

What Rebecca wisely says is that when we hear these texts in the Divine Services during Great and Holy Week we need to think about the sinfulness of all of mankind. In my above posting, I talk about this at length. As members of the Church, we must humbly submit to Her Teaching Authority. It is not for you or me or Adonis, or anyone to tell the Church that She should change anything because it might cause &#34;discomfort&#34; to some groups of people, that we should be careful what we say, and that now we have become more &#34;enlightened.&#34; Since World War II, there has been this idea that certain people need to be appeased in every possible way for their suffering. Over the centuries, untold millions of people have died unjustly at the hands of others. We are all sinful, and we should all be uncomfortable - it was not just the Jews who caused the death of Christ - you did - I did - for all of this is beyond time, and that is very hard for us to understand. Looking at this with spiritual eyes, we will see that we are the &#34;Jews,&#34; for by our sins and faithlessness, we are Christ&#39;s betrayers. We in the West want everthing to be clearly &#34;defined,&#34; for our personal sartisfaction - well, that is simply not the case, and never should be. So much of our Holy Orthodoxy is in the realm of &#34;mystery,&#34; and we are too spiritually bereft to even begin to understand these truths. Let us not worry about &#34;texts&#34; and our miniscule understanding of them. Let us repent for our sins, and then, only then, perhaps we can see and read these texts with spiritually opened eyes. Why do you think Our Saviour would say in the Holy Gospel Let he who has ears to hear, let him hear?&#34; We hear and see little because we are vain and proud. Let the Fathers of the Church, enlightened by the Holy Spirit, tell us what the Church teaches. On the dread Day of Judgement, Jurretta, neither you nor I or anyone will be judged for what we &#34;thought&#34; we knew - we will be judged for how much we loved God and our neighbor. All the &#34;knowledge&#34; and &#34;wisdom&#34; of this wordld will be for naught, for Christ is Divine Wisdom, and it is how we will have lived by His Truth, not our opinions about anything which will save or condemn us.

Farther Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear Jurretta,

On more than one thread I have tried to say that who are we to judge what the Church has taught or written or said in Her wisdom over the centuries. Jurretta, to put it quite bluntly, you don&#39;t have an &#34;opinion.&#34; nor do I, or anyone else for that matter when it comes to the teachings of the Church. As Rebecca and Adonis say, if we changed the text of the Holy Scriptures and the hymnography or even the hagiography of the Church evry time a particular group might be &#34;offended,&#34; then the entire Truth of the Holy Gospels and teachings of the Orthodox Church would be lost. Very recently, a new book has come out which is called &#34;The Word Police,&#34; which shows how the four major publishing houses of school text books in the United States are rendering the language used in these books to be so harmlesss and to be meaningless. It is now not &#34;correct&#34; to have women be mothers, housewifes, secretaries, cook, and so on - they must be firemen, farmers, architects, and so on. Old people cannot be called &#34;old, or &#34;elderly,&#34; and they cannot be shown sitting in a rocking chair, but smiling, healthy, and active. People cannot be called Asiatics or Hispanics, because that is is to &#34;specific.&#34; An article to have been read by students about the first blind man who climbed Mt. Everest was rejected because it &#34;demeaned&#34; blind people, not taking into account what a marvelous and brave thing he had done.

What Rebecca wisely says is that when we hear these texts in the Divine Services during Great and Holy Week we need to think about the sinfulness of all of mankind. In my above posting, I talk about this at length. As members of the Church, we must humbly submit to Her Teaching Authority. It is not for you or me or Adonis, or anyone to tell the Church that She should change anything because it might cause &#34;discomfort&#34; to some groups of people, that we should be careful what we say, and that now we have become more &#34;enlightened.&#34; Since World War II, there has been this idea that certain people need to be appeased in every possible way for their suffering. Over the centuries, untold millions of people have died unjustly at the hands of others. We are all sinful, and we should all be uncomfortable - it was not just the Jews who caused the death of Christ - you did - I did - for all of this is beyond time, and that is very hard for us to understand. Looking at this with spiritual eyes, we will see that we are the &#34;Jews,&#34; for by our sins and faithlessness, we are Christ&#39;s betrayers. We in the West want everthing to be clearly &#34;defined,&#34; for our personal sartisfaction - well, that is simply not the case, and never should be. So much of our Holy Orthodoxy is in the realm of &#34;mystery,&#34; and we are too spiritually bereft to even begin to understand these truths. Let us not worry about &#34;texts&#34; and our miniscule understanding of them. Let us repent for our sins, and then, only then, perhaps we can see and read these texts with spiritually opened eyes. Why do you think Our Saviour would say in the Holy Gospel Let he who has ears to hear, let him hear?&#34; We hear and see little because we are vain and proud. Let the Fathers of the Church, enlightened by the Holy Spirit, tell us what the Church teaches. On the dread Day of Judgement, Jurretta, neither you nor I or anyone will be judged for what we &#34;thought&#34; we knew - we will be judged for how much we loved God and our neighbor. All the &#34;knowledge&#34; and &#34;wisdom&#34; of this wordld will be for naught, for Christ is Divine Wisdom, and it is how we will have lived by His Truth, not our opinions about anything which will save or condemn us.

Farther Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Hi John!

I was paraphrasing Dimont, but, specific to your question he wasn&#39;t saying anything about what all Christians are, he was only saying that for Christian or anyone to be anti-Jewish is not in and of itself anti-Semitic. He was particularly countering the teaching of many Jewish people, scholars and what-not who claim there has been hateful anti-Semitism in Christianity from the get-go, even in Rome before Christianity. He was pointing out that anti-Semitism is a form of racism, which didn&#39;t appear, in his opinion, until either the nineteenth or maybe eighteenth century &#40;I forgot which&#41;. All that was to get Jewish people off the pitty pot. He was roundly criticized for this opinion by his co-religionists.

Richard

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Rebecca, Jurretta, and the rest,

The &#34;clear and obvious meaning&#34; of a word or phrase is what the word denotes in the language of the speaker. That is what is known as the &#34;content&#34; of the words. Deeper or other meaning can be given in the context of the speech which is understood by the hearer who shares the &#34;context,&#34; i.e., lives in the same situation and/or shares the same frame of referrence.

Over generations, and sometimes not over so many, words of the same language are &#34;given&#34; different meanings,or content. Think of how the word &#34;neat&#34; was originally use as compared to how it was used by most of the &#34;boomer&#34; generation, and how the word &#34;cool&#34; is used by youth of today.

The words &#34;impious&#34; &#34;lawless&#34; and &#34;transgressor&#34; had specific content that need not carry some of the emotional baggage they&#39;ve been saddled with.

In regard to the ten commandments, the word &#34;piety&#34; refers to how one relates to God. So, impiety is failure to obey the first commandment of the Law &#34;Love God with all your heart...&#34; etc. If Jesus is God, and he is crucified, then, the crucifiers are breaking this law.

&#34;Righteousness&#34; or &#34;justness,&#34; from the same framework is about how people treat their neighbor. OT usage &#40;as translated in the KJV, and perhaps others&#41; uses the word &#34;transgression&#34; for a sin against one&#39;s neighbor, i.e., against &#34;justness&#34; reserving &#34;sin&#34; for those against &#34;piety&#34;, i.e., against God alone. Since God has forbidden sin against neighbors, &#34;transgressions&#34; are also against God, but the point is the intended recipient of the offense.

So, if Jesus is a man, he is a neighbor, and if his neighbors crucified him, an innocent man, they have transgressed against him.

Thus, those who crucified the God-man have broken the law against piety and righteosness. They are lawless. Gentiles were already impious, the reason behind their already unrighteousness. Thus, they were &#40;are&#41; as St. Paul says to the Romans, &#34;without the law.&#34; &#40;lawless&#41;

The mere fact that Jesus was born a Jew &#40;and yes, even a Judaean&#41; shows that he would have faired worse, not better, at the hands of any other of the nations. After all, he was, as it says, &#34;turned over to the hands of sinful men&#34;, i.e., the gentiles. It was for claiming kingship that he was executed by the Romans.

So the playing field is leveled, and the Jews are as much in need of the Gospel as the Gentiles. And there you have it!

Sincerely yours,

Richard

[Richard Leigh]

Hi again, everybody,

After re-reading all those excellent posts on this topic, I&#39;d like to discuss how it was that the Patriarch Jacob &#40;for whom the Lord&#39;s Brother was named&#41; got the name &#34;Israel&#34; in the first place. &#34;Jacob&#34; is the supplanter, the one who surrepticiously supplants the older twin brother.
&#34;Israel&#34; is &#34;God&#39;s fighter&#34; and properly taken in all its ambiguity, but first it is against God that he faught, a struggle, btw which ended in his gaining a blessing that, we might say, supplaned the one he got from his father.

I think two things that can be learned from this are &#40;1&#41;if you fight God you can&#39;t win, and &#40;2&#41; if you hold on to God in the fight, you will be blessed &#40;and changed&#41;.

I said all that to say that I think the struggle with the words of Scripture as they appear there and as they appear in the liturgical texts is a good thing to do as long as it&#39;s born in mind that it is against the immutable God that we struggle, like Jacob befor us, and that we might as well expect to be changed in the outcome.

As an afterthought, I&#39;d like to point out that composers of texts are not responsible for how someone not in their own &#34;context&#34; &#40;is this what &#39;phronema&#39; is?&#41; take them. Any indication that we&#39;re not &#34;getting it&#34;, including the pretense that we are when we really have no idea,
is a clue to seek and find that context of theirs.

Yours,

Richard

[Rebecca]

Following Richard&#39;s lead, I&#39;ll say that to me, the phrase &#39;clear and obvious meaning,&#39; in the context of our discussion, has to do with answering the questions: &#34;what is the primary focus of these hymns,&#34; &#34;who is the main character in the poetry.&#34;

I disagree with a conclusion that the Jews are the primary focus of the hymns. I think the primary focus is God.

I think the hymns do provide an extended narrative of events that took place 2000&#43; years ago on a Friday. I think the way the narrative is constructed clearly speaks of God&#39;s mercy and immeasurable love for all people, even in the face of how he was treated during the crucifixion.

The shifting tense and person, the juxtaposition of Old Testament events with the events of Holy Friday all point to God&#39;s infinite, unwavering, tender and unbounded-by-time love for his creatures.

Those He loved, those He gave many benefits to, these betrayed Him, yet He prayed for their forgiveness &#40;this gives hope to someone like me!&#41;. He endured the humiliation of the Cross out of His Love for His creatures &#40;you and I are creatures loved with such immeasurable love!&#41; &#34;that He might free those bound in hell, who cry &#39;long-suffering Lord, Glory to You&#34; and &#34;to free us from bondage to the enemy.&#34;

Take away the extended narrative, which describes &#40;can I say &#34;bears witness to&#34;?&#41; what took place on that Friday two millenia ago, and you lose one of the most beautiful descriptions of God&#39;s mercy and love for mankind that exists in our Church.

Change the language and you lose deeper meanings, which give context for and interpretation of the Old Testament.

I know that I have not even begun to understand these hymns, and there is something positive about that, because it tells me that there is so much more to be seen and experienced of God&#39;s love and compassion and mercy; something to seek after, knowing that it&#39;s not something that I will grow tired of as it is infinite.

There is much that I encounter in Church services that I don&#39;t grasp. However, I believe it is better to genuinely seek the Lord as He truly is, and bear ridicule, than to conform to those who would criticize. I believe this, but sadly, I constantly fail at living it. But these hymns give hope!

[Andonis]

i never understood Jesus as being a Jew. Jesus being the son of God, has not nationality. he is the prime human being representing makind, being bereft of national identity other than to indicate the geographical place of his birth. If Jesus is God, and he is a jew, are we trying to say that God himself is a Jew? the reason Jesus may have been born in Judea has more to do with the fulfillment of divine prophesy, for this would be the place where he would be crucified and resurected. had he been born in Greece, South Africa or elsewhere for all we know he may have been exalted and declared a King and lived his life by the seat of his throne into his old years, or in the very least not been sentenced to death . but this would not have lead to his execution and resurection. Jesus therefore being Judean was a circumstancial requirement for the fulfilling of prophesy.

[Richard Leigh]

Well, Andonis,

Let&#39;s put it this way, is Joseph&#39;s wife Mary the Theotoks? Is she not by lineage and deschent, Jewish? Is Jesus a man? Any man born of a Jewish mother is Jewish. Does salvation come from the Jews? Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that it does. All evidence points to the fact that if Mary is the Mother of God, God is a Jew.

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

Richard Leigh wrote :


“Should I be found having rejected a Jew today, I shall be found having rejected the Lord.”
I read the following a couple of days ago and it made an impression on me :

“How odd of God to choose the Jews.”
William Norman Ewer

"But not so odd as those who choose a Jewish God, but spurn the Jews.”
Cecil Browne in reply to Ewer

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Antoni's comment :


" .. for those that wish to call God's words into question, regardless of how you phrase the scriptures they will do so. the scriptures have a mystical power that transcends mere human logic, which focuses only on words and phrases and missess the divine message. we should pray that the holy spirit and the guidance of the church will enlighten us as to the essance of the teachings. or else lets just all re write the bible wherever it speaks harshly and truthfully giving painful testimony to real events..."

I agree with you Antoni – I sometimes get a little irritated when everything that is traditional about the Orthodox religion needs to be changed to accommodate recent trends in whatever country the person wanting to make the changes happens to come from. The Orthodox religion has survived for so long quite well without all these little changes, and will continue to do so. What happens if trends change again in 50 years or so. I’m having a sense of deja vu here – have we discussed this question in the past?

As far as the Jews are concerned, I haven’t been able to detect any anti-Semitic feeling here at all. Jews are considered to be smart money-wise and there is a lot of anti-Israeli feeling because of their actions in the Middle East but to think that this has anything to do with what is heard in church is unrealistic. Just one example: People were shocked and still refer to the fact that two little Greek seamstresses, who also happened to be Jewish, were burnt alive by the Germans during the war, just outside of Kozani (my city). The crowd that witnessed this terrible act protested but there is nothing you can do when a gun is pointed at you. If people here were anti-Semitic they wouldn’t still refer to this incident with such concern and outrage.

Effie

I just read Father Averky’s latest message on this subject (post no. 138 addressed to Juretta) and agree entirely with him.

[Andonis]

Hello Euterpe,

nice to read your post. i become very frustrated by this modern wave of political correctness that is constantly trying to re write history because in hingdsight it may offend those whom have to live with the legacy of shame based on the actions of their forefathers.

in this era of obsession with constant change and fluidity lets not allow the massacre of history also. i'm not at all interested in political correctness or whom the facts of history offends. i'm interested in truth, and if truth hurts some people that is no justification to go and re write the history books.

i'm particularly sensitive on this topic, because i have Pontian descent, whom are a populace whom suffered a Genocide at the hands of the Turks. Many Turksih people find it offensive that we on an annual basis march outside their consulate building protesting that as a nation they acknowledge the atrocities they committed. i often hear the protests of Turks and other nationalities proclaim to be offended at our actions, and what we write in our papers and history books. its unfortuanate that many honest, God abiding Turkish people suffer defamation because of something their nation did without their consent or approval. but it doesn't change the facts. and maybe what is required is double the humility to acknowledge what has occured in history so that it is never repeated.

[Andonis]

dear Richard?

you quote


"Any man born of a Jewish mother is Jewish. Does salvation come from the Jews? Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that it does"

are you suggesting then that we all head for the synagogue instead of our Orthodox churches? i am interested to know how the jews have contributed to your salvation, cause i for the life of me can't see how they've assisted in mine. other than the role they played in the life of Christ which was to execute him and precipitate the coming forth of the truth of resurection.

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,

Before you make such a statement again, read your bible history, and learn more about the history of Salvation! The Jews were God&#39;s chosen people because they were the only ones who were montheists and who beieved in the One True God. There is the Old testament Church and the New Testament Church, and Jesus Christ is the Promised One, the New Adam, the Only-Begotten Son of God sent by God the Father to redeem Mankind who had fallen. When Jesus Christ spoke to St. Photini, the Smaritan Woman He clearly told her &#34;salavtion is of the Jews.&#34; Jesus Christ indeed was a Jew, and he came from the royal house of David - on both sides. He fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophecies. If you read His life in the Holy Gospels, you will see that He kept the Mosaic Law right up intil His death.

Jesus Christ appears in the Old Testament: He is the Angel who holds back Abraham&#39;s hand as he is about to sacrifice his only son Isaac, saying &#34;In you am I well pleased.&#34; He was the Angel who bedewed the three youths in the fiery furnace. He was the Pillar of Fire that led the people of Israel through the desert, and when Moses stood before Him when He appeared in the Burning Bush, and Moses asked Him who He was, He answered &#34; I am the Existing.&#34; When you gaze upon a holy icon of Christ, the Greek letters in the halo form the words &#34;O On&#34; &#34;I am the Existing or, &#34; I Am thatI Am.&#34; Later, when preaching to the multitudes, Jesus Christ said to them &#34; You look to Abraham and Moses, but I say to you, before Moses was, &#34;I Am.&#34; When the soldiers came to arrest Him in the garden of Gethsemane, and asked Him if He was Jesus of Nazareth, He answered, &#34;I Am He,&#34; and the soldiers fell down as if dead. Jesus Christ said this because He is God - ever eternal with the Father, He was sent to save His people the Jews , but only when He saw that they had rejected Him, did he turn His attention to the Gentiles.

All of His life He fulfilled the Law of Moses, He was circumcised, he went to the synagogue and the temple, He followed all the rituals, he fulfilled the fasts and even the Mystical Supper meal took place at the traditional meal in preparation for Passover. He Himself said, &#39;I did not come to change the Law, but to fulfill it.&#34;

Adonis, it fills me with such pain when you continue to make broad and thoughtless remarks. As Orthodox Christians we must know the history of our Church, and the whole of the Old Testament is the prepartion for the coming of the Messiah - Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Don&#39;t you know that there those in the church who even accuse of heresy those who do not believe that our Saviour was a Jew? Please be careful before you make statements that show that you do not know what your are talking about. You and I have gone around and around on this several times - be careful that you do not anger God! As usual, I say this with love - and great consternation!

your

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Andonis,

&#34;Head for the synagogue instead of our Orthodox churches?&#34;!?

No, Andonis. Quite the contraty. When Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well &#40;St. Photini, I understand she is called&#41; that &#34;salvation is of the Jews,&#34; it was in answer to precisely this sort of question. &#34;Our fathers tell us it is on this mountain that we should worship and the Jews &#40;read &#34;Judaeans&#34;&#41; say it is Jerusalem...&#34; discerning that Jesus is a prophet &#40;becuase, apparently her nous has been enlightened; faith to see comes only from God, as Jesus told Gallilean Peter when he discerned the Messiah--- Photini is aptly named!&#41; she is asking for God&#39;s answer to who is right, Samaritan patriarchs or Judaean? God&#39;s answer is two pronged, as it often is: &#40;1&#41; Salvation is from the Jews, therefore the Jews are &#40;for the time being&#41; right, as to where worship should be conducted -- at the temple in Jerusalem, but &#40;2&#41; the time is coming when there will be no more temple in Jerusalem than there is here on Mt. Gerizim &#40;less, in fact, not one stone will be left on another in the &#34;holy city&#34;&#41;. Besides this, in the same gospel this is recorded in, the Gospel According to John, Jesus teaches that his body is the true temple, and the Epistle to the Hebrews &#40;written, apparently before the prophesied destruction of the temple&#41; we are told that the temple in Jerusalem is man made after the pattern of Heaven, the true temple, where Christ has taken his own blood in sacrifice for the sins of all, after the manner of Yom Kippur, the day of Atonement, the shadow of the true sacrifice which Christ actually is.

But, more to the point of your question, Jesus goes on to tell the woman &#40;St. Photini&#41; that, true worship is in and from the heart, it is &#34;in spirit and in truth&#34; and not confined to space.

Please don&#39;t take this as my saying that you shouldn&#39;t go to your Orthodox churches. In the previously mentioned epistle to the Hebrews we are told not to neglect the gathering together of the brethren &#40;warning that this was, in fact the habit of some --- Hebrews &#34;hits&#34; two extreme sets of believers, those who want to return to the old Judaic sacrificial system, a mere shadow of reality, and those who want to give up gathering altogher ---, &#34;no&#34; its author [St. Paul?] says, but not there [at the temple in Jerusalem] but wherever you are as a group, i.e. city or town [St. Ignatius, not adding to Scripture but correctly elucidating it, was later to say &#34;wherever your Bishop is, there is &#40;i.e., &#34;should gather&#34;&#41; the church], remembering that Jesus had said, &#34;Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I AM, in the midst of you&#34;&#41;

Did you know that in current Rabbinic thinking, a Jew can be a Jew, even if he or she is a Buddist &#40;by some conversion&#41;, or a Hindu, or even an Atheist? But somehow not a Christian? Everyone knows that the temple is gone. The Rabbis edit and re-interpret Scripture such that the temple is not needed anyway. We OTOH know better -- We know Jesus to be the Only True Jew &#40;however one wants to say it&#41; and His Body, the Temple on Earth, more than a mere anti-type of the Temple which is Heaven itself, for somehow mysteriously One with it &#40;I believe &#34;Heaven&#34; used that way is a &#34;euphemism&#34; for God, so, the unity is not strange, but none the less &#34;a mystery&#34; in the true sense of that term&#41;.

BTW, in obeying all the Law, note that Jesus spurned mere social convention in talking to a woman, much less a Samaritan. He was not about &#34;adding to Scripture&#34; what God had not said.

But, Andonis, you don&#39;t have to believe what I say, I am not Orthodox. Read what Fr. Averky has written, whom I thank profusely for his testimony to the truth.


Yours,

Richard

P.s., Because I expect someone to ask me about the hermits, given what I&#39;ve pointed out about &#34;the gathering together,&#34; let me just say here that their response is in answer to the question, &#34;how is one to be a martyr, now that Christianity has become the &#34;in thing&#34;? --R

[Nun Helen E. Provost]

From: Sister Helen =20 To: mb-send@monachos.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 5:15 PM Subject: Re: Orthodoxy and the Jewish people

To Jurretta,

Christ is Risen! This is the first time that I respond to a = &#34;thread&#34; on this message board. Usually, I just simply pray for the = many members. As an Orthodox Nun, I prefer to remain &#34;silent&#34; with = regards to discussions, debates, or anything else which transpires at = this web-site. But, today, as I read your post, and a first one at = that, I feel that I must just say a few words. I am not a scholar, = editor or academic theologian, but there is one thing that I know: that = is, that a text, whether Liturgical, or Scriptural, or otherwise, can be = read at different levels of understanding. As I understand it, these = levels can be seen or interpreted as one of the four following: 1. = literal, 2. historical, 3. allegorical, 4. spiritual or mystical. It = seems to me that we enter into the movement of the Holy Days in any one, = or in all of these ways, at varying degrees, as the Holy Spirit guides = us from within our own soul at the present moment, in the pure Gift of = Grace. =20

So, whoever wrote the texts for the Holy Friday Services, was = probably re-writing the Scripture texts of the Passion of Christ, as = sh/e was inspired and understood them at the time of their being = written, expounding upon them, and putting them into this poetic form = that was adopted by the Church as we read these today in the Liturgical = Services.

I don&#39;t know how else to put this except that the Word of God is a = Living Word, it does what it says, yesterday, today and forever. And, = that the &#34;Jew&#34; or &#34;Israel&#34; or &#34;Judas&#34; or &#34;those who condemned the Lord = Jesus Christ&#34; is not necessarily the literal &#34;Jew&#34; , the historical = &#34;Jew&#34; , but anyone who betrays, condemns, or denies Christ as being the = Son of God, the Anointed One, the Messiah! =20

So we Christians, can be totally mislead by taken a text to = literally. And as you yourself state, that only leads to more = anti-Semitism, as relating to the words quoted from the Good Friday = Service. Let us hope that 2000 years have educated us, and continue to = educate us in the Light of the Holy Spirit, with regards to these texts, = and many others like them.

In all of this, I believe that the seven last words of Christ from = the Cross can help us to understand, by drawing us further into the = whole Mystery of Christ! especially the &#34;Father forgive them, they know = not what they do!&#34; If Jesus truly said this, and I believe that He = did! He said it of the Jews, and of all of us who at some time or other = betray, deny, condemn, or crucify Him in our daily lives.

I like to think of the message of Jesus, the Risen Lord to Peter and = the other Apostles: &#34;Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, = they are forgiven them; whose sins you retain they are retained!&#34; Jn. = 20:22-23 There are so many texts of Scripture that could be referred to~ ~ = ~ at this point! I invite you all to read the Gospels after the = Resurrection . . . do we truly believe that &#34;all that was fulfilled in = the Law of Moses, in the Prophets and in the Psalms had to be = fulfilled?&#34; ....... continue the prayerful reading of Luke&#39;s Gospel 24, = especially verses 44 to the end. =20

As we await again the coming of the Holy Spirit at this Liturgical = period of the year, I recommend In the Risen Christ and the Theotokos, = Nun Helen ----- Original Message -----=20

[Nun Helen E. Provost]

Dear Jurretta, and all of you who read this

To insert the missing link to my previous message, which was trunkated because of my ineptitude in posting messages.

I recommend that we say the prayer of the 3rd Hour each day,

&#34;O Heavenly King the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth who art everywhere present and fillest all things, Treasury of blessings and Giver of Life, come and abide in us, and cleanse us of every impurity and save our souls, O Good One.&#34;

Nun Helen

[Andonis]

Dear Richard,

thank you for your clarification. it has greatly assisted me in trying to understand your previous comment that salvation comes from the jews. i thank you doubly for taking the time and having the patience to explain this to me, and not taking offence when i make statements with any ignorance. i appreciate the role the jews played in preparing the way. the jews of that era at least, where to a large degree God loving pious people whom where stingent adherents of God&#39;s law. there are many modern jews today whom are just as stringently God loving and obedient. they played their role in biblical history, just as did the other non jews, such as our saints, elders, patriarchs whom built on the foundations set by jews, to teach a profoundly higher truth, that being Jesus Christ.

i guess what i become conerned about, is that a person that is not so well informed, can be lead easily astray by a statement such as &#34;salvation comes from the jews.&#34; at least in my lifetime, i have never seen the jewish nation, attempt to gather God&#39;s flock&#40;people of all nations and backgrounds&#41; and lead them to salvation. furthermore i become very troubled when i hear many Christians claim the jews today still maintain a more superior status than Christians in God&#39;s heart, and base this on what they read in the old and new testaments. this for me at least is quite frightening. As it suggests that God, is quite content to consider them his chosen special ones, above gentiles and other nations despite the fact that they crucified him, refuse to repent of it, and continue to deny him. God apparently does this irrespective also of the role non jews played in establishing and spreading Christianity throughout all nations. using this logic, as long as i can gather some very pious years under my belt, i&#39;m free to plunge myself head straight into an ocean of sin, because my heavenly status can no longer be relinquished. we are all too aware that this is not how God works. and in the very least, we are called to repent constantly over our fallen state, and never succumb to the illusion that we have somehow, based on a covenant made thousands of years ago, secured God&#39;s support and approval for ever into eternity non withstanding of how we choose to demonstrate this in our daily lives.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Andonis,

Your personal judgment against Jews sounds painfully harsh. Don&#39;t forget what Christ said on the cross: Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Now, he was referring to the Jews who were crucifying him of course, but he is also referring to us.

One thing I have learned from the Gospel is that there is no such thing as collective guilt, and I think it is quite wrong to judge any group of people for anything, or, let&#39;s face it, judge anyone as being morally, spiritually inferior. I think God judges Christians by a far higher standard than anyone else, because we have no excuses for our mistakes, and cannot claim ignorance. Everyone else has a valid claim of ignorance. Even heretical Christians have a valid claim of ignorance. But Orthodox Christians do not. That&#39;s what should scare the heck out of US!

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Andonis,

Ah yes, because who knows how many can be led astray by Scripture taken out of context &#40;precisely the way the Adversary tempted the Lord&#41; we all need to read the words in their entire context. A strength of Orthodoxy I didn&#39;t mention was her realization that there is a larger context for those words than the mere paper they&#39;re printed on, I refer to the living experience of the whole church.

I think the Lord&#39;s words to St. Photina were that salvation was then in process of coming from the Jews &#40;speaking to a non-Jew who asked which race worhips correctly [= &#39;is Orthodox&#39;] in God&#39;s eyes, hers or Jesus&#39;? And he would know,being a prophet, he had a direct line from God&#41;, and specifically that that salvation was directly addressing her, which she could have &#40;potentially? we&#39;re going with, &#39;salvation isn&#39;t salvation until we&#39;re finished&#39;? That&#39;s an honest question from an non-Orthodox&#41;. Anyway, she did see and so believed &#40;and so she&#39;s aptly named, for &#34;light&#34;, I mean&#41;. IOW only in Christ is it true that &#34;salvation comes from the Jews.&#34;

Indeed, non-believing Jews believe they&#39;re still in their &#34;original&#34; covenental relationship with God &#40;The I Am, really, who Jesus said he is&#41;.

Also, there are some chilliastic &#40;millennialistic&#41; permutations of protestant Christianity out there which wrongly declare that God&#39;s original geographico-political prophetic promises to Israel remain to be fulfilled, and that they will be. This delusion perpetuates a kind of superstitious defference to Jews. On the Jewish side, there are &#34;Messianic Jewish Synagogues &#40;I knew one&#41; in which the idea of racial superiority on the part of Jewishness is fostered -- or at least it was held by some members of the congregation &#40;I can&#39;t say that I know that it was taught&#41;.

This kind of thing, BTW, lies at the heart of the politically religious far right&#39;s support of Israel today. Those of us in Jewish evangelism who eschew chilliasm as a heresy, and take Zionism as an expression of 19th century nationalism just try to use such world events as touch points for talking about God, and the Messiah, and why we think Jesus was &#40;and IS&#41; him.

I appreciate your correspondence, Andonis, &#34;Iron sharpens iron&#34; as Solomon says.

Grace and Peace,

Richard

[Richard Leigh]

Oh, and by the way,

Jesus dropped the first shoe when on the cross he prayed &#34;Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.&#34;

He dropped the second shoe on Pentecost, when 5000 people who heard St. Peter believe, were baptized, and filled with the Holy Spirit!

It&#39;s one thing to be forgiven. It&#39;s totally another to be forgiven!

Shalom

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Richard Leigh,

We are not talking about contemporary Judais, anti-semitism, or politic of the Middle-East. We are discussing liturgical and their spiritual meaning in time, or rather that time which all of the Church&#39;s feasts take place -beyond time. The crucifixion, death and resurrection are not mere historical events, they are part of salvation history, and their importance lies in that, not what people&#39;s opinion of Jews or Zionism happens to be today. I do not think that anyone has been guilty of taking anything from the scriptures out of context. When Jesus Christ told the Samaritan woman that &#34;salvation is of the Jews&#34;, we are told that He came to save His people -Israel, only when He saw that they woudl not accept Him, did He turn His attention to the Gentiles.

What vexes me most of all in this discussion is that well-meaning and pious Orthodox Christians allow themselves to fall into the trap of New Age thinking - that just because they have an &#34;opinion.&#34; it does not matter what the Church teaches, whether it be the texts of liturgical hyms or whether or not Jesus had to be born in Judea or South Africa, and if He was a Jew or not. The Fathers of the Church, upon whom we rely , are our ecumenical teachers and authorities. It is not for us to be the &#34;judge&#34; of these things. It is our &#34;place,&#34; to receive the message of the hymns and of the Church , the Holy Gospel, the Epistles and the writings of the Fathers. and keep them in our hearts, as did the Mother of God. As someone else commented, when He was on the Cross, our Saviour asked forgiveness from His Father for those who had put Him to death, for they did know know the full weight of what they were doing. As I mentiojned in the sermon of St. Philaret of Mosocw, all involved in the death of Christ had to play their part in order for all of Mankind to be saved. What excuse do we have, when we now have the fullness of the truth, but we in our pride refuse to be obedient to the authority of the Church, gving forth on what we &#34;Think!&#34; It is like a comment made by the author Gore Vidal in one of his novels, &#34;She only thought she was thinking.&#34; We cannot plead ignorance - we have been given the truth, and we are responsible for keeping it. I do not lose patience at all, it just makes me very sad. I have been looking over many of these posts, and at times, people thank me for my &#34;wisdom,&#34; and &#34;insight,&#34; but God forbid I should disgree with them, then my words are happily dismissed out of hand. As I told someone the other day who asked me if we can question what the church teaches on some questions, and as I answered this person -pesonally, I can only give an answer that was given to me from the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church -Through Jesus Christ, the Holy Scriptures, the Sacred Canons and teachings of the Holy Fathers: it does not matter what I &#34;think&#34; personally, and I would not dare to even venture to try to guide or even answer another soul with my poor opinion. I am a priest, and I do not want to stand before God and answer to Him, should I, by my own thoughts or opinions, endanger the salvation of another. I cannot speak to or about non-Orthodox in this matter, for that is not my place - I can only direct my comments on this matter to my fellow Orthodox Christians, for we must be &#34;of one mind and one heart.&#34;

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Fr. Averky,

Father, bless.

I&#39;m afraid I do not quite understand your post to me. I had made reference to Jesus&#39; statement to the woman at the well &#40;you taught me was named &#34;St. Photini&#34;&#41; that &#34;salvation is of the Jews&#34; and Andonis sought clarification of my use of this statement which was not given in context. You understood the statement in its context as you live the context of scripture, I&#39;m sure, and pointed out what it was to him yourself. In my own clarification I directed him to your excellent post on the topic. He responded that he was glad for the clarification and explained where his fears had come from, which sounded to me as though they were associated with a lot of non- &#40;un-, even&#41; Orthodox out of context Scripture taking with which at least I am quite familiar and can speak to, all involving the chilliastic heresy, which does not exist in Orthodoxy, yet is broadcast on radio and television channels world wide, seeking the hearts and minds of the faithful.

I believe God speaks to us through his word in Scripture and Tradition of the church &#40;e.g. Orthodox liturgy&#41;, the continued outpouring of His Spirit, and have tried to say so often. To the best of my knowledge, we were talking about the same thing and giving the same answers. Did I say something that was not Orthodox? There was, perhaps, a problem with opining at all? Certainly if I ask you to &#40;as I do now&#41;, you are free to correct me. At least, then I will know if and where the problem is.

Sincerely and respectfully

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear
My Dear Richard,

This is a case where I read your post, and I suppose my mind was a little shorted out from being too tired and trying to digest material too soon after getting of a plane. I somehow read your post and understood something quite different from what it actually says. for this, I am profoundly sorry. I usually read posts two or three times before I consider and answer them, but I acted hastily in this case. Your gentle reaction touched me - thank you.

Also with the greatest respect,

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky,

Ah, then, good. It is as I thought. We were not separated, after all. I understand how misunderstandings can arise on this internet medium. Apology accepted.

Faithfully yours,

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,
Only our sinfulness, and thus our denial of our life in Christ will keep us apart. As long as we can see each other with Christian love in our eyes, we will always find a way to clear up any lack of understanding.

Love in christ,

Fr. Averky

[Andonis]

dear Richard and father Averky,

you are both excellent teachers. Richard your posts address my concern directly. i am in no way trying to alter scripture, or question God why he chose a certain group of people of an era whom would be descendants of Christ. but all this, when interpreted in a non orthodox context is then frought with error and scandal which can be very misleading. as you said Richard, chiliastic heresies and Zionism are such movements whom practically recite verses of the bible by heart, but this is pointless when you are viewing through the wrong medium. any part of the scripture can be at one point or another taken out of context to claim God may love and have a preference for one group of people or another. but through the eyes of the orthodox church, the message is filtered through the presence of the holy spirit and the body of christ to ensure we receive and understand the right message.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ,
Richard

Good answers to what has been asked and discussed in this thread are to be found in St. Paul&#39;s letter to the Romans, for he clearly talks about the role of the Jews and their continued relationship with God.

I will give but a few quotes, and please be mindul that they are but part of the entire text, and I am not attempting to prove a point by taking something out of context; it is that I find these lines to be interesting in that they are written by the Apostle Paul, who in this letter speaks about being a Jew. himself.

&#34;For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, - the same Lord is the Lord of all and richly blesses them all who call on him, for &#34;Everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved.&#34;
But not all the Israelites accepted the good new. For Isaiah says, &#34;Lord, who has believed our message?&#34; Consequently the faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But did they not hear? Of course they did.
&#34;Their voice has gone out into all
the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.&#34;
Again, I ask: Did Israel not understand?.
First, Moses says,
&#34;I will make you envious&#34; by those
who are not a nation:
I will make you angry by a nation
that has no understanding&#62;&#39;

Further down the Apostle says:

I ask the: Did God reject his people? By no means!......Don&#39;t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah -how he appealed to God against Israel:
&#34;Lord they have killed your prophets, and torn down thy altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me.&#34; An what was
God&#39;s answer to him? I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.&#34;
So too at the present time there is a remnant saved by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.&#34;

The Apostle goes on to say:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
&#34;The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness way
from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I will take away their sins.

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God&#39;s gifts, and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so too have they now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God&#39;s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.&#34;

&#40;Taken from Romans : 10 verse 12 and follwing, and chapter 11 verses 25 to 32&#41;

Again, as St. Philaret of Moscow points out, it is is not just a matter of the &#34;guilt&#34; of the Jews, for they most certainly did reject Christ, but they did so &#40;and only a certain group&#41; in order to play their part in the tragedy which was to bring about the resurrection of Our Lord.

Chapter 11 of this Epistle, verses 25 to 29 point out that God still has a place for the people of Israel, but 30 to the end points out that all that happened took place in order that God&#39;s mercy could be shown to all men, both Jew and Gentile. This is what I have been saying all along, that the verses of the hymns should be taken to mean that all of us sinners -we are the &#34;Jews,&#34; for we daily turn our backs on Christ and reject Him by our sinfulness. and it was because of the sinfulness of all mankind that Jesus willingly died on the cross.

I understand you, Richard when you speak of chiliasm and Zionism, and i agree with what you speak of in that context, but this is not the point as far as I am concerned -Jurretta asked if perhaps we should no take a second look at these hymns, for they seem to be so harsh and full of condemnation -I along with others are simply sayoing that,
1. We need to rely upon the wisdom of the Church and her hymnographers in writing all the hymns of the Divine Services, and have no right to change them in any way, and
2. If we look at these particular verses as applying to all of us as represented by those who betrayed and killed Our Saviour, then we can see their real spiritual value. I am not trying to re-write the Holy Gospels, nor am I attempting to &#34;pardon&#34; the people of Israel, nor am I entering into any justification or mis- interpretation of Holy Scriptures: I am simply trying to say that what the Jews did had to be done in order for the Mystery of Salvation to be accomplished.

I personally have no intention on writing another single word on this subject.

Fr. Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky,

I didn&#39;t mean to trouble you over the matter. You are right, St. Paul has given us the last word regarding God&#39;s continued choice of the Jews, and all he has to say about that.

I understand you, ... when you speak of chiliasm and Zionism, and i agree with what you speak of in that context, but this is not the point as far as I am concerned -Jurretta asked...

I realize it wasn&#39;t Jurretta&#39;s point. It was Andonis&#39; point, though.

-Jurretta asked if perhaps we should no take a second look at these hymns, for they seem to be so harsh and full of condemnation -I along with others are simply sayoing that...,

yes, I am among those others.

1. We need to rely upon the wisdom of the Church and her hymnographers in writing all the hymns of the Divine Services, and have no right to change them in any way, and

I am in full agreement with you there. I do encourage questioning though. Had Jurretta not questioned, she may have continued in false faith and worship &#40;the oposite of what &#34;orthodox&#34; means&#41; not leaning the lesson that comes with that stuggle with the texts of the liturgy, those words of Scripture, the Very God himself which makes Israel of us all, by learning our place in those texts &#40;reading &#34;ourselves&#34; for &#34;Jews&#34;&#41;, as the fathers of the church learned in their own ascetic struggles, and as you wisely noted:

2. If we look at these particular verses as applying to all of us as represented by those who betrayed and killed Our Saviour, then we can see their real spiritual value. ...I am simply trying to say that what the Jews did had to be done in order for the Mystery of Salvation to be accomplished.

Amen, and amen! A clearer rendition of what the Holy Spirit is saying to us in these Scriptures I have seen nowhere else!

I personally have no intention on writing another single word on this subject.

None needed, Fr. Averky, though I won&#39;t hold you to that as I certainly didn&#39;t want to have had the last word :-&#41; Let us agree &#40;I with you in what you have already said&#41; the last word is had by God himself through his Apostle St. Paul.

Respectfully yours,

Richard

P.s., I am not judging the faith or worship of one who does not question. There are times and seasons for everything. I only meant that one can possibly walk blindly into asserting what one means according to personal definition of a particular word or phrase understanding it wrongly. This, I have found, is largely the source of the Filioque controversy, West to East. It is equally likely, though, that the innocent and untrained, particularly when living the context of the writers of particular liturgical texts, understand completely, and believing praise and worship rightly. I just mean that when the question arises like an adversary in the mind, it is best not to pretend the question isn&#39;t there by declaing it has no right to be there. It is better to take the question to the fathers, the authors of those texts understanding that we will get nowhere if we give in to the question and change the text to accomodate it --- to do that could only come from the false beleif that the fathers didn&#39;t know what they were talking about. That had better not be -- though again should a question arise about that, apply it to study and find out, and keep digging until you&#39;re satisfied that the answer is right. Perhaps I should have mentioned the need to pray for the Holy Spirit in the endeavor, without the Holy Spirit we will surely be led astray. --- R

[Marie Quirk]

Dear Richard,

Just a note to say thanks for pointing out the website. I happened upon Dynamis a few weeks ago myself and subscribed to it. It has really helped me in being faithful to my daily reading of the Bible. Also I do not have an Orthodox Bible so I really appreciate when they translate some of the words into Greek that help to clarify and better understand the text.

I would be interested in any other Orthodox websites that send out newsletters on different subjects..such as the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, etc. Would anyone else in the group know??

Thanks again and prayers to all
El Messiqh Quam!!
AMA Quirk

[Fr Averky]

Richard,
Thank you very much for pointing out Dynamis to us - I will certainly look into it. Also, thank you for the article you posted. I am aware of the Orthodox Church being the New Israel and I am glad that you rather concluded my ending thoughts on this thread so nicely, for they are true to the thought of this particular discussion. The Church as the New Israel woud make a most interesting thread. I always appreciate your comments to this community, because they are well thought out and presented in a kindly manner.

Sincerely in Christ,

Father Averky

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

the best way to get into these various sites, from news to sermons, book reviews etc is theologic.net. There are several ports into this site just keep clicking until you find what you want. Isn&#39;t Dynamis great. Mr. Peterson a former Episcopal priest is so dedicated, he writes everyone of them, and is as well the co-chanter at St George Cathedral in Witchita. Really like that man , James

[Elisabeth]

Dear Marie

Christ is Risen!

the following website sends out weekly homilies and readings from The Desert Fathers:

'Christ is Risen! Truly He is Risen!

Please help spread the teachings of the Desert Fathers by forwarding this message to one or two friends, family members, or co-workers. Instructions to subscribe and unsubscribe are at the end of the newsletter. To access all previous issues of the newsletter (almost 300 issues now archived!), just go to http://www.innerlightproductions.com/archive.htm .'

Elisabeth

[Richard Leigh]

Oh, Elizabeth,

That was so great to learn. Thank you very much! I will be subscribing to that!

Richard

[Marie Quirk]

Ronald and Elizabeth,

Thanks for the websites. That is what I needed!!
Christos Aneste!!!
AMAQuirk

[Effie Ganatsios]

I’ve been getting both the Dynamis daily commentary and the Innerlight weekly readings from the Desert Fathers &#40;and Mothers&#41; for quite some time and I really like both of them.

I also downloaded the Menologion 2.0&#40;I think it was from the theologic.net site&#41; and that gives me the daily orthodox reading - I then print both the reading and the commentary on this from Dynamis and study it. The Menologion also tells you which saint is being celebrated that day and this helps me immeasurably because I sometimes forget the namedays of friends and relatives. In addition the Menologion gives you the Troparion and Kontakion for that day.

Effie

I tried sending this message this morning via e-mail but it hasn&#39;t appeared here. Just as well, because I didn&#39;t really know what I was doing.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I&#39;ve been getting both the Dynamis daily commentary and the = Innerlight weekly readings from the Desert Fathers &#40;and Mothers&#41; for = quite some time and I really like both of them. I also downloaded the = Menologion 2.0&#40;I think it was from the theologic.net site&#41; and that = gives me the daily orthodox reading - I then print both the reading and = the commentary on this from Dynamis and study it. The Menologion also = tells you which saint is being celebrated that day and this helps me = immeasurably because I sometimes forget the namedays of friends and = relatives. In addition the Menologion give you the Troparion and = Kontakion for that day. =20

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Effie,

Thanks for that. The site and the method!

Richard

[John Kapetan]

Cristos Anesth

agaphtoi mou Effie

Effie:

Do you have any of the links for those pages. I seem to be having difficulty finding them and always strike out with the Dynamis stuff.

In Christ,

John K

[John Kapetan]

Effie,

Please forget about the web addresses. For some reason, I missed a previous post by Richard that lists the sites.

In Christ,

John K

[Effie Ganatsios]

John, Christos Anesti.

×ñçóôïò Áíåóôç

Çope the Greek comes through as yours does. I just read your last two posts - for some reason I didn&#39;t get the first message in my mail.

Did you get through to Dynamis? You can also get the whole month&#39;s readings in a Zip file but I prefer getting one a day - they send them a day earlier which means you can read the commentary on that day&#39;s reading after your morning prayers.

John, the áãáðçôïé that you wrote in post 27 is plural. For one person you should write áãáðçôç which is singular. It&#39;s wonderful that you are able to write Greek - are you studying Greek?

Effie

[John Kapetan]

Effie, AlhqwV:

Unfortunately your last post did not come through properly. I don't know if it is a problem with my computer if if there is a problem on the monachos.net server's end.

My grammar is usually incorrect, but I am not really sure which word or words I had used as plural in that post (I could not really read the Greek in your post). I thought that using the plural form of a word showed respect. I guess you have to know when to use it. Sorry.

When you sent your Greek text did you use the formatting symbols from this newsgroup? In other words, did you use the "greek{symbol text}" for the word? If you need of an "American symbol text to Greek conversion chart, let me know. I have one that I think has the right conversion text letters in it.

I finally got through to Dynamis. I received their first sermon this morning. I had tried to subscribe several times in the past, but usually something did not work. Your recommendation of reading the commentary after morning prayer seems like a very good idea. I had gone to the web site and manually read the commentaries in the past, but having it delivered to your e-mail seems like a great convenience. I wonder if they can conduct a church council over bulletin boards and e-mail? At least every jurisdiction would be represented.

In response to your question of whether I am studying Greek. The answer is not really. I just thought the whole Greek text was a novel idea, and a chance to make people feel more connected. My parents were both born here in America, but both sets of grandparents (Yiayias & Papous) were born in Sellasia, Laconia near Sparti.

I know this post did not really belong in the Old Testament group, sorry about that.

In Christ, and take care,

John K

ps. The name was KapetanakhV. My grandfather had shortened it in the early 1900's.

[Effie Ganatsios]

John, forgive me, I wasn&#39;t trying to be a Greek teacher - I have trouble myself with the language so to think of trying to teach it to someone else would be ludicrous. John the ending - oi is plural. It&#39;s not the formal plural version that is used when being polite or speaking to people we don&#39;t really know. The formal plural would be -e e.g. agapite the -i ending is the familiar &#40;friendly&#41; ending for women.

I&#39;ll ask my son about the proper male and female familiar form.
I think it&#39;s the spelling in the word that&#39;s wrong not the sound.

I didn&#39;t know that you were of Greek descent - I just thought how terrific it was that you would use Greek. Kapetanakis? Were your people from Crete before they went to Sparti? The ending -akis usually shows Cretan descent.

I love words, John, and I love finding out how they evolved but I sometimes show my ignorance when I get involved with Greek.

Lots of Greeks shortened their names in America, unfortunately, and there were also a lot of mistakes made by custom officials at Ellis Island, because a lot of them were not very educated. I&#39;ve read that one man&#39;s official new name became Tiepes, when he asked the official what he had said.. again : formal ti eipate, informal ti eipes

I&#39;m glad about Dynamis. Getting the commentary delivered by e-mail each day is the most practical way of getting it I think. I downloaded the monthly version but I spent too much time looking up the right day and sometimes I didn&#39;t do it at all. Getting it in the e-mail is the lazy way but the best.


Effie

[Fr Averky]

Dear John, Christ is Risen!

when I saw your last name, I thought you might be Russian by descent. We have a young priest who graduated from our seminary - his name is Kapitan, which means &#34;captain.&#34; It is interesting to see family names and to wonder how they developed. Effie&#39;s reaction was lovely -having lived with Russians for almost half of my life, I know how delighted they are when I am able to speak to them in Russian. It opened a link between you and Effie, who both share your Rich Greek heritage and our Orthodox faith. God bless both of you!

Much love in Christ,

Fr. Averky

[John Kapetan]

Dear Father Averky, Indeed He is Risen! Voistinu Voskrese!

Father Bless;

I would like to thank you, for such a heartwarming letter/welcome. I realize that we have made an Exodus so far off the topic of ‘Orthodoxy and the Jewish people’ that we can’t even find our way back with Mapquest.com. But aren’t we actually the spiritual Israel according to the fathers of the church.

Anyway, I had been mistaken several times for being of Russian descent. Primarily because my dad and I used to attend Holy Trinity Cathedral in Chicago &#40;OCA&#41;. As you had gathered from my discussion with Effie, I do love my roots. The problem is that confusion arose when I first entered the Cathedral. The reason for the confusion &#40;not a bad type of confusion, more like an awakening&#41; was back then I really fell in love with the Russian traditions. At Holy Trinity they made me feel so accepted-and rightfully so-they just seemed like family to me. It did help that Holy Trinity had that feeling of ‘heaven on earth’. Father Cutler was there at the time and so was Bishop John. I always felt good around the Bishop. He didn’t speak English, but he had the face of an icon.

Anyway, further confusion entered into the picture, of which I hope that maybe you may be able to help with getting things in my spiritual life in order. I have been attending a Carpatho-Russian church near my home. With the recent shenanigans of the patriarch and his persecutions against the monks on Mount Athos, and all of the ecumenical rhetoric, I’ve actually even begun to question whether I should be under any church associated with the Patriarch. I had read an article about Patriarch Meletios and the robber council in the 1920’s entitled “The 70th Anniversary of the Pan-Orthodox Congress in Constantinople - A Major Step on the Path Towards Apostasy by Bishop Photius of Triaditsa. I don’t know how ‘Orthodox’ this article was, but it made my stomach turn.

I know those are strong words and the Lord forgive me for saying them, but I would like to find out if I’m fleeing in the right direction. I just would like to find a home in an Orthodox jurisdiction that wasn’t bowing down to ecumenism, modernism, the calendar issue and a host of other reforms, but was canonically correct.

There is a ROCOR parish not far from here in Des Plaines, Illinois. Once I get an accessible van and I can travel there on my own. I would like to attend the parish. I know that Bishop Alypy is there. My biggest question revolves around the ROCOR parishes. Who are they under and what is the difference with them and everyone else. I realize that if I attended church there, the services are all in Slavonic and I probably would not be going with any of my family members &#40;My brothers, sister, nieces and nephews; I always felt the Slavonic was prettier&#41;. My family seems to like the English &#40;which I totally understand&#41; and the somewhat shortened services.

I also know that it wouldn’t be like shopping for car, but I would like to either go with the Serbian, ROCOR or OCA parish. At least one that is accessible to me.

Sorry the letter sounded somewhat like a confession. Can you suggest anything?

With much love. In Christ,

John

[Priest David Moser]

Dear John,

I noticed your query about the ROCOR parish in Des Plaines. That is the cathedral parish &#40;Holy Protection&#41; for the Midwest Diocese and is indeed the residence of Archbishop Alypy. The services there are mostly in Slavonic, however, I have no doubt you would be welcomed. In addition there is an &#34;English language&#34; ROCOR parish nearby in Carol Stream - St Innocent of Moscow &#40;the first Orthodox bishop of Alaska, later Metropolitan of Moscow&#41;. The services there are mostly in English with just a little Slavonic. That may be an option for you and your family if language is an issue.

Fr David Moser

[John Kapetan]

Dear Father David,

Christ is Risen,

Thank you for the quick reply. What is the Patriarch or Metropolitanate for ROCOR? Is ROCOR and ROCA the same? Are you basically in communion with the Serbian church? Sorry for the real basic questions on ROCOR.

In Christ,

John K

[Priest David Moser]

John,

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia &#40;ROCOR&#41;is a part of the greater Russian Orthodox Church of which the Moscow Patriarchate is also a part. &#40;ROCOR can also be translated &#34;Russian Orthodox Church Abroad&#34; hence the variant ROCA&#41; Due to the politics of the Soviet era and the enslavement of the Church to the atheist state, there is not at present and administrative unity between the ROCOR and the MP &#40;as Fr Averky mentioned this division is being addressed, but will take time to heal 70&#43; years of division&#41;. The ROCOR is a temporary administrative entity established by St Patriarch Tikhon when it became apparent that there were parts of the Russian Church which were cut off from the central Church authority. It was only ever really meant to be a temporary measure until the fall of the soviet state. Now that the soviet union is no more, there have been a number of contacts between these two major parts of the Russian Church trying to figure out how to re-establish their administrative and liturgical unity. My personal opinion is that we are &#42;at least&#42; 5 years and probably more away from any formal relationship, but we are moving in that direction.

As far as the OCA and the ROCOR - at one time the OCA was a part of the ROCOR, but in the 40&#39;s finally severed ties with the ROCOR and went her own way, finally receiving some offical standing from the hand of the soviet dominated MP in the 60&#39;s. The most charitable approach &#40;and to my mind, the best approach&#41; to this relationship is to say that the MP, the ROCOR and the OCA are all parts of the greater Russian Church which, in this post-soviet era still need to figure out their new relationship. BTW, the parish in which I was baptized was at the time in the OCA under Archbishop John of Chicago &#40;whom you mentioned&#41; and I recall him with a great deal of affection.

Fr David Moser

[Priest David Moser]

John,

I see I forgot a couple of your questions. The ROCOR is in communion with the Serbian Church, the Church of Jerusalem, the old calendar churches of Romania, Bulgaria and one of the Greek Old Calendrist groups, the Church of Alexandria, Sinai etc. There is at present a prohibition against concelebration between the ROCOR and the OCA, MP, Antiochian Archdiocese of America, the new calendar Church of Greece, the Ecumenical Patriarch &#40;in this country that is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of N & S America&#41;. These are not doctrinal differences, but primarily administrative/political ones which are no different than other historical political divisions which have come and gone in the history of the Orthodox Church. Just because we do not serve together does not mean that we do not recognize each other as Orthodox; in fact we do.

Fr David Moser

[John Kapetan]

Father,

This is the last time I will bother you tonight. It is not a question that needs immediate answer if it&#39;s too late.

Are these concerns of mine legit. The calendar, the ecumenical prayer groups and modernism to name a few. Possibly why some people actually migrate to ROCOR.

Thanks again, In Christ,

John K

[Priest David Moser]

John,

I would say that these are certainly legitimate concerns and one or more of them are reasons that many people give for coming to the ROCOR from other jurisdictions. Whether these are legitimate issues &#42;for you&#42; I cannot answer - I know nothing about you or your situation, and even if I did, the internet is not sufficient for the task.

I have been in both the OCA and the ROCOR; my confessor has been in both the ROCOR and the Antiochian Archdiocese and in both cases, we have purposefully chosen to come to and remain in the ROCOR for the reasons you mention above as well as others. OTOH, I maintain good relationships with both the GOA and the AA priests in town and they seem not to be affected by these issues. Sorry I&#39;m not much more help.

Fr David Moser

[Stephen Keeler]

And for a laymen, I have never been denied communion when I&#39;ve attended any of these churches.

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear friends on this discussion board:

To all who have participated in this discussion: forgive me if I feel moved to add a few closing words to a part of the discussion that I am afraid I diverted pridefully and very unhelpfully with my first comment on it.

My thanks again to all who responded to my first post on this subject, which I do not wish to revisit now--the only thing to be reiterated, in case it wasn&#39;t clear and lest the example I set be worse than it is already, is that in raising questions about some of the liturgical texts used in Great Week, I wasn&#39;t questioning or judging the Church&#39;s teaching concerning the Jews or anything else-instead, I was questioning whether some of the liturgical texts fully reflect the Church&#39;s teaching. I do not wish to defend that question further, and I beg pardon of anyone to whom it may have caused pain.

I welcome the interpretations offered by others that affirm the loving nature of these texts, rightly understood &#40;and I was almost certainly wrong to quote them out of context, as though they or anything else in Orthodoxy can be understood apart from the fullness of our faith&#41;, and the insights about the degree to which their words of condemnation are directed at the Jews who killed Christ, not at the Jews as a whole people, let alone with any imputation of inherited collective guilt &#40;which of course the Church denies in its understanding of Adam&#39;s sin and its legacy, this being a major area of difference with the later Latin West&#41;.

I confess that I am not completely at peace that this is all that can or should be said on this subject, as I have seen the same issue--specifically or generally--raised by others far wiser than I &#40;for example, in a 1998 article by a Russian Orthodox priest, Fr. Sergei Hackel, available at http://www.incommunion.org/hackel.htm, and in a talk given by Bishop Kallistos Ware in 1996, available at http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/kallistos_ware_rejected_his_people.htm&#41;.

However, I myself can have nothing further to add, except a request, a hope, and a comment that I ought to have made long ago, as it is far more important than my original question.

My request &#40;to other Orthodox&#41; is this: if you know any Jewish catechumens or indeed any Jews who are beginning to move toward Orthodoxy in any way and are attending Orthodox services, please reach out during Great Week to share insights such as those offered on this board about the liturgical texts concerning Jews, lest by inadvertently misinterpreting those texts, they misunderstand and be wounded and discouraged in their incipient faith. I know that this can make a difference to someone approaching Orthodoxy at an early stage of faith, because that is exactly what happened to a Jewish friend of mine before he became Orthodox many years ago. He told me afterwards how much he appreciated the sensitivity of the Orthodox woman &#40;not I!&#41; whose insights prepared him to hear these texts for the first time. Of course it is painful to recognize that our liturgical texts are sometimes misunderstood as antisemitic, and we may even wish to dismiss and condemn the blindness of those who see antisemitism in them, but I know from the testimony of this man and other Jewish friends who have become Orthodox that these texts very likely will be so misunderstood &#40;that is why I questioned them in the first place&#41; unless we who are already in the faith help those who yet &#34;stand at the door and knock&#34; to understand aright what they are hearing. Thus the words we have discussed here can become an opportunity for teaching, as they have been in this discussion, and for deepening the burgeoning faith of those who are beginning to seek after Christ.

My hope is this, though it may be a foolish one: that perhaps some--even some who have participated in this discussion?--might be led by God someday to write liturgical prayers that will be added to the services and serve to direct the hearts of people such as myself to a more complete understanding of the texts I questioned. Of course the addition of prayers to the Church&#39;s liturgical life is not a matter of individual will, but of the wisdom of the Body unfolding slowly and with great care and discernment under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Yet one may perhaps be permitted to hope that the insights such as those expressed by others in this discussion might someday please God to bless into words that we may all offer to Him in worship, to the deepening of our hearts&#39; understanding and the salvation of our souls.

Finally, a comment, one that I ought to have made weeks ago in response to the original question about the relationship between Orthodoxy and the Jews. Because Orthodoxy is expressed above all in worship, prayer, and holiness rather than in intellectual discourse, having unhelpfully raised questions and concerns about one area of our liturgical experience concerning Jews, I must end by reaffirming something much more far-reaching in scope and importance: that is, the pervasive presence of the Jewish scriptures throughout all our services, such that &#40;for example&#41; the English editions of the Menaion and the Triodion have countless footnotes noting the Old Testament sources for phrase after phrase that we pray, or image after image invoked in our worship. The echoes, and sometimes the actual words, of the Hebrew Scriptures are everywhere, on every page of our holy service books. Orthodox worship is actually absolutely saturated with the sacred texts of the Jewish people, which is surely one reason why so many Jews &#40;especially in Russia, but also elsewhere in recent times&#41; have been moved to begin to turn from their original faith to ours. Judaism is in no sense incidental or peripheral to Orthodoxy: on the contrary, we encompass the faith of Christ and the Apostles and are carrying it into the Kingdom.

Yours in Christ, and praying that all of us who have written or read this discussion may be led to open their hearts and minds to a deeper understanding of His infinite love for all people,

Jurretta J. Heckscher

[Rebecca]

Hi Juretta,

I think this is an interesting time to have chosen to revisit this topic...

Best Regards...

[Herman Blaydoe]

An interesting link that might be appropriate to the original topic:

Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism (http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/)

[Alexander Vernet]

Are you serious George? Have you read the Torah and other books of the Old Testament? Israel is called the Son of God! You are racist, pure and simple.