About the tomb stone

[Boulos]

Dear all in Christ,

Can someone help giving good comments on why the stone of the tomb was been rolled, since no need for the doors to be opened for the resurrected body of Christ Our Lord, to exit or enter any room as physical obstacles.

In christ we remain, with u all.

I refer to :

"And they saw that the stone had been rolled away" (luke 24.2)

At evening on that day, the first day of the week, when, for fear of the Jews, the doors were shut where the disciples were, Jesus came among them and said to them, May peace be with you! (john 20.19)

Thanks

[Herman Blaydoe]

So the myrrh-bearers and the disciples could enter and see that the tomb was empty!

[leandros]

The door was opened because the two ladies/disciples that arrived at the tomb at that morning did not have the physical strength to roll over the stone in order to free the entrance and to enter into the tomb. They were actually talking of this issue as they walked towards the tomb.

According to the bible the entrance of the tomb was not only blocked by a big rock but it was also "sealed", meaning that the rock was tied down to its place by the use of iron chains so that it would be imposible for someone to just roll the rock away (Romans and Pharisees collaborated in this action).

So an Angel opened the door in order to let people into the tomb to witness the absence of Christ's body after the resurrection.

Actually the scene was staged from the Angels so that humans could enter through an open door in the morning hour, while Christ had already exited while the door was closed on the previous midnight hour.

Church Fathers - like St Cyril of Alexandria and St Athanasios the Great and others - have talked of the birth of Christ, that he exited from the womb of Theotokos without destroying her virginity as a symbolic parallelism to this exit (exodos) of Christ from the tomb that leaved the entrance of the tomb sealed.

St John of Damaskos writes in his 6th ode of Paschal canon: "By keeping the seals unharmed, Christ, You resurrected from the tomb, as You are the same who did not open the "lock" of the Virgin while you were being born". This song is loosing its poetry as I translate it from Greek, but this is what it says. The Original Greek Text is :“öõëÜîáò ôá óÞìáíôñá óþá ×ñéóôÝ åîçãÝñèçò ôïõ ôÜöïõ ï ôáò êëåßò ôçò ÐáñèÝíïõ ìç ëõìçíÜìåíïò åí ôù ôoêù óïõ”.

Dear friend, this is a great mystery that you asked about.

[Antonios Spartan]

I always thought that the Roman seal was not irons and chains, but rather a wax stamp indented with a Roman image (Caesar?) stamped over ribbons which if removed would ruin the wax stamp.

Wow, thats a lot of 'stamps' in one sentence!

[leandros]

Brother Antolios Spartan,

let's have a look to passage from the bible:

Matthew 27:62-66
The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."

"Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how." So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.

In this context the seal was a security measure, actually chains over the entrance rock. It was not just a symbolic seal that was placed to identify the violation of the official order.

[John P. Nasou]

Much precious time is being wasted in discussing and conjecturing = about the Holy Tomb's stone. We have the reading from the scriptures and = this had been enough for Christian's for over two millenia. The mention = of chains which were never mentioned in the scriptures is one of the = worse conjectures. I would suggest that all should cease following this = unproductive line of thought and get on with matters that would truly = benefit our =

[Antonios Spartan]

Brother leadros,

I found this in reading the book "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell:

_______________________________

A.T. Robertson says that the method of sealing the stone at Jesus' tomb was "probably by a cord stretched across the stone and sealed at each end as in Dan. 6:17 ["And a stone was brought and laid over the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signets of his nobles, so that nothing might be changed in regard to Daniel"]. The sealing was done in the presence of the Roman guards who were left in charge to protect this stamp of Roman authority and power."

Henry Sumner Maine, member of the Supreme Council of India and Professor of Civil Law in the University of Cambridge speaks of the legal authority to the Romal seal. He points out that is was actually "considered as a mode of authentification".

Such seals were placed also on Wills and other official documents that served not only as the index of the presence or assent of the signatory, but were also literally fastenings which had to be broken before writing could be inspected.

Considering in like manner the securing of Jesus' tomb, the Roman seal affixed thereon was meant to prevent any attempted vandalizing of the sepulchre. Anyone trying to move the stone from the tomb's enterance would have broken the seal and thus incurred the wrath of Roman law.

Henry Alford says "The sealing was by means of a cord or string passing across the stone at the mouth of the sepulchre, and fastened at either end to the rock by sealing-clay."

Martin Vincent comments: "The idea is that they sealed the stone in the presence of the guard, and then left them to keep watch. It would be important that the guard should witness the sealing. The sealing was performed by stretching a cord across the stone and fastening it to the rock at either end by means of sealing clay."

D.D. Whedon says:" The door could not be opened, therefore, without breaking the seal; which was a crime against the authority of the propietor of the seal. The guard was to prevent the duplicity of the disciples; the seal was to secure against the collusion of the guard."

________________

My take on this reading is that the seal was actually more symbolic than as a secure fastening device. The rock was enough for that role. During the Holy Fire celebration on Holy Saturday, the sepulchre is "sealed" in a similar manner, with cords and with the seal of (I believe) Jerusalem on it, placed by the local authorites after inspecting the inside of the tomb. Before the Patriarch can enter, he must literally break the seal.

Again, I only have learned of these things from readings, and of course, that would make it open for debate. I hope this understanding I am giving you is not deceiving.

In love,
Antonios

[leandros]

Brothers, I apologize of any offense that came after my former post.

Let me submit the 16th verse from King David's psalm 107 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Psalm%20107:1-30;&version=9;) that is referring to Christ's Ressurection:
"For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder."

It is according to this prophetic psalm that the Orthodox icon of Christ's Resurrection is painted in the byzantine tradition with broken keys and chains and broken gates under the feet of Christ.

This is not an icon of the exact moment of ressurection. Nevertheless, the chains and locks are not novelties when the issue is about Lord's resurrection.

You can see such an icon here: http://www.wsgoc.org/facility/Church/Panel36.html

http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4229/20196.jpg

I submit this information according to the teachings of a Greek Orthodox teacher, the late Panagopopoulos, that is respected as a genuine Orthodox teacher (non-cleric) of Orthodox faith.

[Elias Young]

A of Dr. Kirsop Lake states:
"The broken Roman seal is however the icing on the cake. This seal was equivalent to that of police lines today. The Roman seal was placed on the tomb after being inspected by a guard. The seal was a cord that stretched across the boulder that was placed at the tomb entrance, and was sealed at either end with clay. Finally the clay was stamped with the official mark of the Roman governor. The seal was used to show authenticity, to prove that Jesus was inside the tomb."

http://www.essaysample.com/essay/003131.html

[leandros]

St. John Chrysostom

Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew (http://www.culture.gr/2/21/218/218er/e218er2.html)

Homily XC (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-10/npnf1-10-96.htm#P8280_2577061)

"Fort the sake of these soldiers that earthquake took place, in order to dismay them, and that the testimony might come from them, which accordingly was the result. For the report was thus free from suspicion, as proceeding from the guards themselves. For of the signs some were displayed publicly to the world, others privately to those present on the spot; publicly for the world was the darkness, privately the appearance of the angel, the earthquake. When then they came and showed it (for truth shines forth, being proclaimed by its adversaries), they again gave money, that they might say, as it is expressed, "that His disciples came and stole Him."

How did they steal Him? O most foolish of all men! For because of the clearness and conspicuousness of the truth, they are not even able to make up a falsehood. For indeed what they said was highly incredible, and the falsehood had not even speciousness. For how, I ask, did the disciples steal Him, men poor and unlearned, and not venturing so much as to show themselves? What? was not a seal put upon it? What? were there not so many watchmen, and soldiers, and Jews stationed round it? What? did not those men suspect this very thing, and take thought, and break their rest, and continue anxious about it? And wherefore moreover did they steal it? That they might feign the doctrine of the resurrection? And how should it enter their minds to feign such a thing, men who were well content to be hidden and to live? And how could they remove the stone that was made sure? how could they have escaped the observation of so many? Nay, though they had despised death, they would not have attempted without purpose, and fruitlessly to venture in defiance of so many who were on the watch. And that moreover they were timorous, what they had done before showed clearly, at least, when they saw Him seized, all rushed away from Him. If then at that time they did not dare so much as to stand their ground when they saw Him alive, how when He was dead could they but have feared such a number of soldiers? What? was it to burst open a door? Was it that one should escape notice? A great stone lay upon it, needing many hands to move it."

[Boulos]

Thanks all for the wonderfull comments.

Now to be able to conclude on the oroginal main subject, can you comment on what probably could happen, for example, at that time, for a case where myrrh-bearers are coming to any well secured grave as in such case. If the person is anyone who is still as a dead body in his grave, will they ask the guards to remouve the romain seals to permit them to enter for a while, and return it back? i don't think they will agree. So what could probably any myrrh-bearers do or ask the soldiers.

Plz consider the example case as "at that time" behaviour of traditions.

In Christ we remain, with u all.

[leandros]

Dear Boulos,

Do you think that myrrh-bearers would have been refused of their request to apply burial customs to the Body of the dead?

Of course they would have been allowed to practice the customs of their Jewish religion.

Please, do not forget that "at that time" the Jewish Law was of equal validity as the roman law, regarding freedom of religion practice. The two women were acting according to their religion tradition and they were not introducing an unexpected visit. Some women, relatives of the deceased must have been expected by the Jews in the scene, to provide the apropriate treatment to his Body - as the Jewish guard was aware of this necessity of their customs.

Who would have denied to two women to practise the proper treatment to the the dead man in the tomb?

I think nobody would.

Of course allowing a woman is one thing and allowing a man is another. The women's intention to cherish the Body of dead Christ, would have appeared suspecious if it was expressed by men. But it was not. There were not man-disciples that arrived at the tomb, but ladies-disciples.

When the guard was ordered to secure the tomb from the disciples of Christ, it took an order that implied that a men's gang was suppositively whould have the intention to perform the dead's Body abduction.

"Letting the two women to enter into the tomb" would have been addressed as a normal expected request that was not an infringement of the security order, "at that time". Because, the Body of the dead had to be treated according to Jewish religion law and this was woman's job.

So, YES the myrrh-bearers would have granted access to tomb's internal.

[Antonios Spartan]

brother leandros,

I think we must be careful in making such firm statements of assurance. Though it is true that such treatment was in accordance to religious tradition, this was not the usual case of a dead Jew. This was a case of a Jew who was tried before the Sanhedrin, wrongly found guilty of blasphemy, and then crucified. In the blinded eyes of the Jewish authorities, Jesus was no longer a Jew. I don&#39;t think they would have gone through all the fuss of having a Roman guard in front of the tomb, securing it with a large, heavy stone sealed with an official Roman seal, all the while suspecting his disciples may attempt to recover his body, and then only 2 days later brake the seal, roll away the stone, and allow myrrh-bearing women to enter what was probably one of the most, if not <u>the</u> most guarded site of Jerusalem at the time.

Mark 16:1-3 &#40;KJV&#41;:
1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3And they said among themselves, &#34;Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?&#34;

The gospel clearly states that they went so that they might annoit him, i.e. it was not certain they would have the opportunity to. And when they ask &#34;Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us&#34;, I take it to mean they are asking themselves, &#34;how are we to convince these Roman guards to allow us in&#34;.

I don&#39;t think the Sandedrin could care less about the annointing of Jesus&#39; body, and I don&#39;t think the Roman guards would break the Roman seal &#40;which is punishable up to death&#41; just to appease some myrrh-bearing women. Now, having said that, what I am saying is clearly conjecture and assumptions- I have no way to prove these statement.

So getting back to Boulo&#39;s question, &#34;what could probably any myrrh-bearers do or ask the soldiers&#34; to allow them to enter, keeping in mind the behavior and culture at that time? I have absolutely no idea. I can only guess they would have tried methods that have been used from the dawn of human history up until now: beg, reason, or bribe.

I like to think the Theotokos would have chosen the middle method http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif!

in humility and love,
Antonios

[leandros]

Dear Antony,
The Greek text is Mark 16:1-3:

&#234;&#225;&#233;....&#228;&#233;&#225;&#227;&#229;&#237;&#239;&#236;&#229;&#237;&#239;&#245;.....&#244;&#239;&#245; &#243;&#225;&#226;&#226;&#225;&#244;&#239;&#245;....[&#231;] &#236;&#225;&#241;&#233;&#225; &#231;
and....when was over....the Sabbath.....Mary

&#236;&#225;&#227;&#228;&#225;&#235;&#231;&#237;&#231;....&#234;&#225;&#233;....M&#225;&#241;&#233;&#225;... &#231; [&#244;&#239;&#245;] &#233;&#225;&#234;&#249;&#226;&#239;&#245;...........&#234;&#225;&#233; &#243;&#225;&#235;&#249;&#236;&#231;
Magdalene....and....Mary.....the mother of James.....and Salome

&#231;&#227;&#239;&#241;&#225;&#243;&#225;&#237;....&#225;&#241;&#249;&#236;&#225;&#244;&#225;..&#233;&#237;&#225;.........&#229;&#235;&#232;&#239;&#245;&#243;&#225;&#233;......... ......&#225;&#235;&#229;&#233;&#248;&#249;&#243;&#233;&#237;...............&#225;&#245;&#244;&#239;&#237;
bought........spices.....so that...after they'll come....they might anoint.... Him

So it seems that there is a translation problem here.

Nevertheless, I have answered to a hypothetical question, so I could have offered a wrong answer.

Of cource I do not hold a magic crystal ball, in which I could see the right answer.

I appreciate your suggestions. They are as valid as mine, or everyone's else for that matter.

[Boulos]

And the women who had come with him from Galilee went after him and saw the place and how his body had been put to rest; &#40;Luke, 23,55&#41;
And they went back and got ready spices and perfumes; and on the Sabbath they took their rest, in agreement with the law. &#40;Luke,23,56&#41;

From this, we notice that the spices where braught and arranged on the same day of death. Means the intention of applying them on the body could be on that same friday, but for other reasons they couldn&#39;t. Nicodemus did the job.

And Nicodemus came &#40;he who had first come to Jesus by night&#41; with a roll of myrrh and aloes mixed, about a hundred pounds. &#40;John 19.39&#41;

So they came after the 3rd day cose of the Sabbath. Means the tradition &#34;at that time&#34; was to spice the body more then once??

Pilate said to them, You have watchmen; go and make it as safe as you are able. &#40;Matt 27.65&#41;

Again, according to that, i see that the seals and watchmen might be not Romain. They might be from the jews chief priest surrounding.

So they went, and made safe the place where his body was, putting a stamp on the stone, and the watchmen were with them. &#40;Matt 27.66&#41;

So myrrh-bearers probably wanted to ask the chief priest&#39;s guards and watchmen to allow them do some rites??

In Christ we remain, with u all.

[leandros]

Dear Friend,

A full analysis of the events that you are referring is given in an homily of Saint Antony, Metropolitan of Kiev (http://www.new-ostrog.org/visits.html) :

&#34;Thus, the four gospels are in perfect agreement on this succession of events:

1&#41; Some of the women purchased spices and ointment on Friday before the end of the day &#40;Luke&#41;, while others, including Mary Magdalene, did so at the end of the Sabbath - after the sixth hour on Saturday &#40;Mark&#41;.

2&#41; Mary Magdalene left the others and went to the tomb at night before the morning of Sunday. There, she does not find the body of Christ &#40;John&#41;.

3&#41; She runs to tell Peter and John &#40;Luke, John&#41;, and then stands alone outside the tomb weeping, when an angel appears to her, and then Jesus, whom she does not recognise. She rushes to Him, but is not allowed to touch Him.

4&#41; Obeying His command, she goes to announce the news to the apostles &#40;John, Mark&#41; and the other disciples &#40;Luke&#41;.

5&#41; Not knowing about all this, the other myrrh-bearers come to the tomb and encounter the angels &#40;Mark,Luke&#41; and return too tearful to speak at first &#40;Mark&#41;, but later also proclaim the news to everyone &#40;Luke&#41;.

6&#41; Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, already aware of the resurrection, go to look at the tomb and the Lord&#39;s burial bandages, which Peter and John had seen &#40;Luke, John&#41;, but which Mary herself had not seen for herself. Coming to the tomb, this time both Mary&#39;s enter it, as the angel advises them to &#40;Matthew&#41;.

7&#41; The angel now instructs them to confirm the news of the resurrection to the disciples and announce the coming of Christ&#39;s ascension.

8&#41; Now fully comprehending the events, both Mary&#39;s hasten to find the apostles again, but meet the Saviour along the way, and this time, they are allowed to touch Him, embracing His feet &#40;Matthew&#41;.

9&#41; By the end of the day, not only the whole company of the disciples, but even the Pharisees and scribes have heard the news. These latter begin to attempt to cover up the facts.

It is clear that the two Marys went to the tomb together after Mary Magdalene had already been there alone, and that both already knew of the resurrection. &#42;In fact, in the Menaion for 22 July, Saint Nikiforos says the same. &#34;Mary Magdalene came thrice to the tomb, twice seeing Christ. First, at night, and then telling Peter and John, with whom she returned. Then with another a third time, seeing the Lord again and hearing Him say &#34;rejoice&#34; &#40;Matthew, Chapter 28&#41;.
&#34;

The multi-visit to the tomb by the Myrrhbearing women was also supported by St Gregory Palama in an homily that he gave with the title: Theotokos was the first who saw the Risen Lord, where he also bases the multi-visit in the same logic as Saint Antony.

[Boulos]

I see a kind of relationship between these 2 events:

1&#41;
Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father.&#40;John 20.17&#41;

2&#41;
And there was a great earth-shock; for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, rolling back the stone, took his seat on it.&#40;Matt 28.2&#41;

Maybe that Our Lord, didn&#39;t want to be touched since he just came from hades and didn&#39;t see the Father yet, so he didn&#39;t want his body to touch any materials such as another flesh or doors or &#40;our main Subject&#41;: to touch or trans-pass The &#34;tomb&#39;s grave&#34;.
Comments plz if any.

In Christ, we remain, with you all.

[Vasilis Kirikos]

&#62; Re: &#34;Maybe that Our Lord, didn&#39;t want to be touched&#34; But what about when He instructed Thomas to put his hands though the holes in His hands and His side? Vasilis.

I see a kind of relationship between these 2 events:

1&#41; Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father.&#40;John 20.17&#41;

2&#41; And there was a great earth-shock; for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, rolling back the stone, took his seat on it.&#40;Matt 28.2&#41;

Maybe that Our Lord, didn&#39;t want to be touched since he just came from hades and didn&#39;t see the Father yet, so he didn&#39;t want his body to touch any materials such as another flesh or doors or &#40;our main Subject&#41;: to touch or trans-pass The &#34;tomb&#39;s grave&#34;. Comments plz if any.

[Boulos]

St Thomas case was not immediatly same day and location after the resurrection. I am not sure...

[Antonios]

My dearest in Christ Boulos,

I have read elsewhere &#40;cannot recall source&#41; about a possible theological explanation similar to what you have stated, that is, that the Son had still not &#34;ascended&#34; to the Father at the time Mary saw him, and thus he could not be &#34;defiled&#34; by her touching him. I have also read another Church father who stated something to the effect that Jesus was telling Mary &#34;do not hold on to me, I must leave and go to my place at the right hand of the father&#34;. I don&#39;t know why Jesus said those words... it is a mystery to me.

in humility and love,
Antonios

[leandros]

Dear Bouloss,

You can find some answers from St Chrysostom Homily LXXXVI. (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-14/npnf1-14-90.htm#P5023_1648696) about verse &#40;John 20.17&#41; Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father.