Married women saints

[Mary Stavroula]

I am doing research to respond to a Catholic theologian's statement that there were no happily married saints. My search on the web came up with a few (St. Xenia, St. Elizabeth of Russia, although both were widowed), and I would think that St. Elizabeth, mother of John the Forerunner, and St. Anne the mother of the Theotokas are obvious choices. Does anyone know of any others? (One web site I tried to access as a link from Monachos was no longer working)

Thank you in advance,
In Christ, Our Lord,
Mary Stavroula

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

This question is already skewed by the fact of the RC church having failed to advance to canonisation, over the centuries, many married people of either gender. It has always been more comfortable with celibates.

seeker

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Mary,

There are at least two Orthodox books worth looking into on this subject of married saints.

One is: Married Saints of the Church published by St. Xenia Skete (they are associated with St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood Monastery in Platina, Cal).
The other is Marriage as a Path to Holiness by David Ford who teaches at St. Tikhon's Seminary in Pennsylvania. (d.ford@stots.edu) If you contact him please pass on my regards.

Finally as to the remark about there being no happiliy married saints- of course it depends on what one means by 'happy'. That they suffered trials- yes; that their spouses at times found them strange or even persecuted them - yes; so they were not worldly- 'happy'. But as they are saints then by definition they are led by the Holy Spirit and a life in Christ. Also they provide excellent examples for us in the life & trials we have before us.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

PS: And of course there is the modern Russian saint: St. John of Kronstadt who was also married.
Fr R

[Mary Stavroula]

MA Jackson-Roberts posting is in agreement, then, with the Catholic feminist theologian that there were no happily married women saints?

I think it goes a bit far. For although there may be fewer in the Roman church, I contend that one should not ignore those that are there, such as St. Elizabeth, St. Anne, and even St. Monica, the mother of St. Augustine.

So it is true that the Orthodox tradition has many more married women saints? Can anyone name any for me?

[Mary Stavroula]

Thank you, Father, for that information and the insight (with which I agree) that the word "happy" is problematic here for its lack of specific definition. "Sexually fulfilled" is at least a part of the theologian's definition of happy, rather than a view that sex within marriage must be perceived as less than saintly. I am concerned that she is giving too much emphasis on a "worldly" perspective that sees sexualily and personal assertiveness and "fulfillment" as the greatest goods. This bothers me and I am beginning to see this possibility as a symptom of a warped theology.

I will follow up on the leads you gave me. Thanks again.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Well, Mary, where is the proof that any of them was happily married - or the converse, come to that? It seems to me that St Paul's gloomy view, that it is better to marry than to burn, still prevails in matters canonical; perhaps not in Orthodoxy but for certain in other faith traditions.

seeker

[Melissa]

Dear Mary, and others interested in this topic -

I'm curious - I've never heard this:


"...rather than a view that sex within marriage must be perceived as less than saintly.

Since becoming Orthodox, I've been taught that if one decides to marry, sexual expression is not only appropriate, but faithful even beyond the desire to conceive. There is the theme that not to marry (and consequently, not to be concerned with physical sexual expression) is a path that allows the person to maintain a greater focus on Christ and living a Christian life. Sometimes that path is posed as 'better' even for lay people, and sometimes these two paths seem to be juxtaposed as each a faithful response to the Holy Spirit - as long as He's the 'Who' one is listening to.

I'm hoping people more knowledgable than I will respond; especially if sources can be quoted which I can't do, I'm afraid. I believe I've read about this in the Philokalia, St. Paul, and various writings, but I'm awful at keeping them sorted out, while also remembering to whom the text was addressed, which often makes a huge difference in understanding what the author was saying.

Thanks in advance - Melissa

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear MA,
I'm sorry if I sounded contentious in my last posting, I didn't mean to be. You are correct, there is no proof one way or another whether St. Anne or St. Elizabeth were happy. But since Elizabeth conceived St. John past her childbearing years, she was sexually active even when she and her husband had no hope of conceiving. The theologian I mentioned was stressing that aspect of marriage, which seems to be fulfilled in Elizabeth's case.

I am very interested in your word "gloomy" in regard to Paul's phrase in 1 Cor. 7:8-9 and I quote from the NAB:

Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

I realize that many translate the word, "pirousthe" as to burn (as in hell), but it is my understanding that it means to be on fire with sexual desire. And to place this in context, Paul is responding to a quotation from the Corinthians which precedes the above verses 8-9 that I mentioned, and I quote:

Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman," 2 but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband. 4 A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
5 Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control. 6 This I say by way of concession, 4 however, not as a command.

Paul is insisting upon equality between the man and the woman and the obligation to each other sexually, not to "deprive" each other, as he says, except by mutual consent. The Corinthians say that "it is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman," not Paul. He is cautioning the Corinthians, who are not known for their moderation or self-control, to attempt celibacy only if they are truly called to that state. It is better to marry than to "burn with desire." Paul prefers his own state of celibacy, but he warns that it is not for everyone.

This is some of the reconstructed scholarship I have been studying and teaching about Paul for several years using what I think is a thoughtful and thorough examination of the Pauline corpus. I also argue with scholars that his famous quote about women keeping silent in churches (1 Cor 14:33b-35) is a quote from the Corinthians as well, as v. 36 indicates in a scathing manner. Throughout his letters, Paul quotes the letter he is responding to quite often when he shifts topics.

In Christ,
Mary

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Mary,

Since marriage is a sacrament (mysteria) how can't a woman be happy when by the Grace of God she is a co-participant in creation? Developing a case for happiness or extreme sorrow is entirely in the hands of the developer and what the developer chooses to concentrate on at specific points in time. Writing your own happiness or misery is one thing writing another's happiness or misery is certainly going to be quite inaccurate, for it is something that can't be known by the author who can't possibly know the endeavor is ridiculous since he is doing it. I would think that if a woman Saint was a Mother she would have experienced an intimate joy known only by her and God.

John 16:21

A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Melissa,

It is very important to understand that when we say the celibate or monastic life is 'higher' (I am not sure if 'better' really is a proper word for this) we do not mean that the married state is sinful. The word 'higher' is meant to be used not as a comparative word as *against* marriage but rather as a positive word that refers to the Kingdom. For monasticism is only higher in the sense that it potentially takes one into that state of the Kingdom where, "they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Mark 12:25) We should remember that Christ is calling ALL, married also to this state eventually; either the repose of one spouse will bring this before one or else old age or infirmity. In any case it is the ascetic measure within marriage that already provides for a conscious preparation for this.

In any case we are each called to pursue our life in Christ in two basic ways: the family or monastic way. Equal faithfulness is called upon in either way of life.

There is a good article about this at
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/celibacy.htm

scroll down until you get to: Marriage or Celibacy?: then the two small sections: Marriage as the Fulfillment of Unity; and: The Meaning of Voluntary Celibacy

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Denise Marie Johnson]

Dear All,

I have little to offer here except to say that it has always bothered me that the Church recognizes so few married saints. Since the married far outnumber the celibates, it seems to me that to have more examples of saintly married folks (and not just in the Bible, but in more current times) would be beneficial to us married folks. To have examples to aspire to.

denise

[Melissa]

Thank you, Father Raphael, that's actually what I thought. And I'll look up the article you mentioned.

I agree with others that how the word happy is used and defined is important. I don't actually think 'happy' is the best word - many good marriages are not particularly happy as we usually understand it in general, but they can be faithful and rewarding. Ultimately, some of those people decide near the end of their lives that they had, indeed, been happy. And they may have been saints, recognized or not...

Matthew P. - some of my thoughts after reading your post - It seems a man or woman can be unhappy to the degree that they fail to keep their sights on Christ and the life after this earthly one. Something we often deal with for most of our lives before we begin to "get it." Also, many women who give birth are not happy about it for a huge number of reasons. They are not able to identify with the creativity of giving birth and God's creativity, because they have too many survival issues (their own and perhaps the baby's) in the way. These are sometimes difficult feelings for Christians to face, because we think we're supposed to "be happy" almost no matter what. We look for our happiness to come from others, rather than seeing joy in Christ as the joy that can lead us through our earthly unhappiness, even if it lasts all our life. And, of course, many women and men find great joy in marriage, children, and growing old in their faith, together.

In Christ,
Melissa

[matt]

I know this is a patristic forum, but I think it would be useful to go over st Paul again and his view of women and marriage. I would not say that gloomy is an accurate expression, but it is understandable to read him in that manner. Xpianity has elevated marriage beyond any other religion in my opinion, and in part I would say that this is expressed directly in Paul. I'll try to write more later, but I am interested in what everyone is thinking. The above posts are very useful.

I just finished listening to a series of tapes by a roman catholic (forgot the name) based upon the Pope's teachings on sexuality and they were just fantastic and, in my understanding, very Orthodox. Marva Dawn's book Sexual Character is also a must read in my opinion.

As to unhappy married saints, I again would suggest that this is not so although it is understandable why one would think it was. I have western style icon of St Monica, my wife's patron, and she has tears in her eyes. THese could be understood as tears for her wayward son, but I suppose some feminists would interprit them otherwise. And yes, I know that there is sexism in the church, etc. Fr Hopko from St Vlad's has several lectures on the topic, but the tapes may no longer be for sale as they were lectures from teh 1980s. And also in the late 1980s to early 1990s st Vladimir's had a summer conference on women in the Church and the lectures were very very good. These should still be available for purchase.

Matt

[matt]

I also want to add that it is true, if I am not mistaken, that if you take the bishops out of the equation, the ratio of female to male saints is not too asymetrical. I think fr Meyendorff said that in a lecture.

About St John of Kron, I believe he basically lived with his wife in a platonic manner. Is this true?

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Melissa,

Very edifying post #166. I'm glad you responded to Matthew P. so frankly and compassionately at the same time. As a mother myself who feels that my part in creating another human being was the greatest event of my life, being a mother has been the source of great sorrow as well as happiness because life has its suffering, and a having your children suffer causes great suffering for a parent.

You spoke to this so well, Melissa, but if I may expand further, I believe that one of the biggest tragedies of this age is the misconception that life is summed up in the pursuit of happiness, i.e., the elusive goal that places our happiness in other human beings or things.

The lie of popular culture (with its 50% divorce rate) is that once we find "the one" we will live happily ever after. This is true in the sense of St. Augustine who wrote, "Thou hast made us for Thyself and our heart is restless until it rest in Thee." "The One" is God. Married or not, if our lives are God-directed, no matter what our circumstances, we can find joy.

I was looking at a review of the book Fr. Raphael mentioned. It has 300 married saints from all time periods. For those who need encouragement, it might be a good read. These is another book by a Catholic writer, John F. Fink, called "Married Saints" that has the lives of 23 such saints. It's available at Walmart books online.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Yes- sometime after their marriage St. John of Kronstadt & his wife took up living as 'brother & sister'. It is interesting to think how this may have complemented their marriage- after all they truly were married for the rest of their lives.

Melissa- would you be able to expand further on what you mean in post #166 by,"They were not able to identify with...because they have too many survival issues (their own and perhaps the baby's)in the way."

Also- it is interesting how the thread has taken a turn towards a discussion about 'happiness' and what we can expect in a married life & also in our Orthodox life in general. In light of this it is interesting to recall that at the marriage ceremony crowns are placed upon the heads of the couple, these representing the crowns of the martyrs.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Melissa,

It is difficult for me to understand your comment.
"because we think we're supposed to "be happy" almost no matter what" I never looked at it that way. I don't think I can, maybe I'm not allowed to, but I know and think there can be joy in repentance.

I bring to mind Job who was not depressed he was oppressed and he recognized it. The book is a litany of woe and sorrowful poetry. But Job trusted in God and things worked out.

1 After this, Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. 2 He said:

3 "May the day of my birth perish,
and the night it was said, 'A boy is born!'
4 That day-may it turn to darkness;
may God above not care about it;
may no light shine upon it.

It gets worse for a while.

I think children are a gift from God as are husbands and wives and a Christ centered family structure. Children teach parents the virtues by being children. Patience, humility, self sacrifice, obedience etc. through the sacrament (mysteria)of marriage. It's seems to always be a matter of free will for a parent, husband or wife could choose to be impatient, self centered etc.
There must be many happy Mother Saints.

I can't image that any woman has suffered more than the Theotokas who is more honorable than the cherubim and more glorious without comparison than the seraphim. As Orthodox Christian men and woman we have a joyful liturgical tradition even in our most sorrowful times which might be much more understandable by women.

Tropar of the Kazan Icon of the All-Holy Theotokos, O earnest helper, Mother of the Lord Most High, thou didst entreat Christ, thy Son and our God, in behalf of all, and causest all to be saved who have recourse to thy mighty protection. O Lady, Queen and Mistress, help us all who, amid temptations, sorrows and sickness, are heavy laden with many sins, who stand before thee and with tears pray to thee with compunctionate soul and contrite heart before thine all-pure image, and who have unfailing hope in thee: grant deliverance from all evils, and things profitable unto all, O Virgin Theotokos, and save us all, for thou art the divine protection of thy servants.

In America sorrow for women has been sown with barbwire by means of the woman's liberation movement and it's thoughtless acceptance. It has reduced woman to the point if a woman is asked what she does for a living a common response is I'm only or just a mom. As if that is inferior to a career and the illusion of security from acquiring money. Since the grandparents are warehoused in a nursing home for convenience sake the children are deprived of the conveyance of a lifetime of wisdom while the wiser ones are removed from their children and grandchildren by their children who say they love them. If they are quick to divorce they often end up raising enemies who prefer the Father who is happy to see them and by them a gift once a month.

All this is and much more is done for the sake of pride and the happy crown of equality which they have bought by the marketing efforts of the evil one.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[matt]

THis is a very good thread. Thanks everyone! I don't want to stretch this too far afield, but I agree with Fr. that the happiness issue is not the best way to approach the topic of Christian marriage. I think the last essay that C. S. Lewis wrote was entitled "We have no right to happiness" and it is in the collection of essays God In The Dock. It basically deals with the question of happiness in marriage and is relevant for that reason.

Matt

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Yes, the turn this thread has taken is certainly interesting.

We seem to be speaking about the general state we are in when we follow Christ. Certainly we are speaking about the effects of grace; but also at times we are deprived of this grace for our own sake. Whatever it is we are talking about it is difficult to express because we are not talking about an emotional 'high': 'I feel happy'. I suppose most already know this is not how to discern whether we are following Christ. And the other danger is to speak as if we are looking for rewards of 'feeling' (usually feeling 'good'). So the danger is that we end up with selfishness.
What then is it we are looking for when we speak of 'happiness' in the Christian life? Perhaps it is a means whereby we can discern whether ae are on the correct path and an inner yearning for the effects of grace upon us, for a whole person in a broken age.

I think there is a short book- only about 20 pages in length- which we as Orthodox Christians should have as our basic 'field manual', always ready to hand. This little book is the "A Wondeful Revelation to the World" or "The Conversation of St. Seraphim of Sarov with N.A. Motovilov". Reading or re-reading this twice a year or so puts one back on track & readjusts the sights. For it seems at times we do lose track of the goal before us.

St. Seraphim says, "The true aim of our Christian life consists in the aquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, they are only means of aquiring the Holy Spirit of God...only the good deed done for Christ's sake brings us the fruit of the Holy Spirit."
As the conversation continues, finally, by the grace of God, St. Seraphim is transfigured before Motovilov. "How do you feel now?" Father Seraphim asked me. "Extraordinarily well," I said. "But in what way? How exactly do you feel well?" I answered, 'I feel such calmness & peace in my soul that no words can express it."

This is a foretaste only (imagine it!)of what God desires to give us. St. Seraphim explains the effects of this gift of God so that we may recognise the gift and know what is the correct direction to go in order to aquire it.

The path however is through constant falling & getting up, sinning & repenting, struggling to endure to the end. In the midst of this we see that the shape of our Christian life is made up both of the joy that St. Seraphim describes and the sorrows due to our own sins and the trials which are allowed from God. On the other pole from what St Seraphim describes is the experience of St. Silouan of Mt. Athos whom God told, "keep your mind in hell & despair not."

We began this thread speaking about married saints. How aprapos on this weekend of All-saints to speak of the saints and the gift they have. The gift they have is the gift of the Holy Spirit and the experience of striving for this. It is this that makes them all saints, not seperated by any category but rather being one family in Christ tied by a common heart & mind. And they are part of our family- married or monastic- for they express the common gift that God wishes to give us all.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Melissa]

Mary Stavroula -
I absolutely agree with you - the pursuit of happiness as our culture understands it is not an appropriate goal for an Orthodox Christian. If I've taken your statements too far, forgive me - but that's what I think you and I are trying to say, and others also.

I'm also a mother, and my greatest earthly joy and my deepest sorrow have come through my children. How appropriate since they are a great treasure entrusted to me by God; and where we risk such responsibility and such love, we will likely experience joy and sorrow. Marriage in my experience is a little different (although also from God). The joy comes more clearly from a shared connection to God, and a sharing of life through a commitment to Him before all else. And the sorrow from knowing, first, that I failed to treat my husband in a Christ-like way so I "let God down"; and then, from however I may have hurt my husband. With many children, their grace and joy in life is so darn infectious, it seems to come directly from them, to us adults! One of their great God-granted gifts to us, I guess!

Please be generous if I've been unclear - I didn't expect to run out of time!
In Christ,
Melissa

[Melissa]

Mary Stavroula -
I absolutely agree with you - the pursuit of happiness as our culture understands it is not an appropriate goal for an Orthodox Christian. If I've taken your statements too far, forgive me - but that's what I think you and I are trying to say, and others also.

I'm also a mother, and my greatest earthly joy and my deepest sorrow have come through my children. How appropriate since they are a great treasure entrusted to me by God; and where we risk such responsibility and such love, we will likely experience joy and sorrow. Marriage in my experience is a little different (although also from God). The joy comes more clearly from a shared connection to God, and a sharing of life through a commitment to Him before all else. And the sorrow from knowing, first, that I failed to treat my husband in a Christ-like way so I "let God down"; and then, from however I may have hurt my husband. With many children, their grace and joy in life is so darn infectious, it seems to come directly from them, to us adults! One of their great God-granted gifts to us, I guess!

Please be generous if I've been unclear - I didn't expect to run out of time!
In Christ,
Melissa

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Mary and Melissa,

You both have well expressed the reality of being Orthodox Christian Mothers and experiencing both joy and sorrow from that unique perspective.

In the Orthodox icon of the crucifixion we see Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ placed on the cross in way that conveys the acceptance of God's will. Orthodox iconography is often referred to as theology in color. We often see at the top of the cross two angels weeping and holding a napkin. Surely these tears are a mixture of joy and sorrow simultaneously wept and taste bitter sweet. It is a reflection of the love for the good thief and the bad thief. It is also a reflection of the crucifixion and salvation which by God's inexpressible love for mankind as the angels beheld the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. For Orthodox Christian men and women there can be both joy and sorrow in the knowledge of the salvation of others as we struggle for our own. I think that if we repent and struggle more we would find more joy. Many Mothers and Fathers would and do sacrifice their lives for their children and on occasions that are filled with the Grace of the Holy Spirit even those that are or are not their children who might hate them. If my memory serves me correctly I think Saint Paul was willing to lay down his very soul for the sake of the salvation of the Jew's whom he loved even if they did not love him or Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ crucified and risen.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Mary,

One of the features on Monachos.net is the A Word from the Fathers section that appears on the front page. The qoute below is relative to this discussion.

The evil one cannot comprehend the joy we receive from the spiritual life; for this reason he is jealous of us, he envies us and sets traps for us, and we become grieved and fall. We must struggle, because without struggles we do not obtain virtues.

Elder Ieronymos of Aegina

[Melissa]

Dear Father Raphael, bless,

I know that many women in the US and around the world do not have the luxury I did of giving birth to children within a loving, relatively financially secure marriage, with access to good health care and nutrition for themselves and their babies. When women suffer from the lack of any of those things, and also may lack any spiritual foundation or support, what they have on their minds is the survival of their child/children, and of themselves. As long as that basic survival need is present, giving birth to a child can seem a burden, not creative or joyful. When children are treated consciously or unconsciously as a burden, well, we all have seen evidence of the sad results for the children.

I may have unwittingly introduced a topic slant that doesn't really belong here. One of my personal struggles is to remember how God has blessed me so richly in the time and place of my own birth (not that the US is perfect, just that much has been available to me) and not take for granted (or criticize) the struggles of others who have a different set of circumstances. I'm attuned to the effects of whether or not a child's basic survival needs are being met, because I so often work with people who are suffering from the fact that they weren't.

Father, I'm deliberately not casting these comments in the broader theological perspective they could be seen from, because I'm still trying to figure out how to always love and trust Christ, help others with their basic needs and the effects therefrom, and then help them understand it all in a Christian way (when that's appropriate); and then express all that when talking about it!

With one person I know, I'm beginning to see that it can work, helping with grief and personality difficulties stemming from basic childhood deficits (sinful caretakers, often) caused by others and how that has contributed to things like depression, behavioral problems, immorality, addiction, etc. - and then seeing the dawning of a love for Christ replacing a war with God - and the attendant ability to have hope again - not for a perfect life, or 'happiness' - but for a life accepted by the person for what it is and has been, given to God, with the abilty to stop believing she wasted what He gave her and will be damned for doing so. It all started to change when I began praying for His Will to infuse my work. Now I'm a frequently humbled servant beginning to see the fruit, however clumsily I express it.

About happiness, and knowing -


Perhaps it is a means whereby we can discern whether ae are on the correct path and an inner yearning for the effects of grace upon us, for a whole person in a broken age.

and


How exactly do you feel well?" I answered, 'I feel such calmness & peace in my soul that no words can express it."

That calmness and peace is how I think of happiness. I'm so glad you included these quotes because they give me some better language. I occasionally experience a small taste of calmness and peace; and their absence (something I know more of http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/sad.gif !) is a sign for me that something is off in my life.

In Christ,
Melissa

[Melissa]

Dear Matthew Panchisin,


It is difficult for me to understand your comment "because we think we're supposed to "be happy" almost no matter what" I never looked at it that way. I don't think I can, maybe I'm not allowed to, but I know and think there can be joy in repentance.
Matthew, I should have been more clear, but that's why I put "be happy" in quotes - I agree with you, but many if not most in this culture wouldn't - the pursuit of shall we say culturally accpeted happiness is something we're supposed to go after. Another way being an Orthodox Christian is countercultural.

I also agree that the suffering of the Theotokos must have been almost beyond bearing - which to me means she knows our suffering and has compassion, because she really knows what it is to suffer. She is also an encouragement, because her faith in her Son, and love for Him, are what got her through, I would imagine - just as they will get us through if we only remember them.

Another point of agreement is your comments about women and feminism/women's lib - love the barbed wire image. I don't know if you or someone else said it (the posts have just now been archived, I see) - but the gist was that Orthodoxy actually is very supportive of women and marriage - and that is true as far as I can tell. St. Paul is often misread, or read correctly but out of context. Men and women have different places in God's design for us, but both genders are highly honored.

In Christ,
Melissa

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

I would like to add, St Natalia and St Emilia were both married saints, St Natalia i think a martyr and the wife of a Martyre and St Emilia the mother of several other Saints.

With love in Christ
pray for me
Charalambos

[Elizabeth Riggs]

This is an old thread, but I'm "renewing" it! :-)

The one married woman saint (aside from the Theotokos) whom I think of as a wonderful example for all married women is St. Macrina the Elder. She was the wife of a saint (St. Basil), mother of a saint (St. Basil the Elder), mother-in-law of a saint (St. Emmelia), and grandmother of 5 saints (St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Macrina the Nun, St. Peter of Sebastea and Saint Naucratius). She and her husband and young son suffered persecutions under Diocletian, lost their property, were exiled in the wilderness where they were fed by God's hand through harts and rabbits that would come an offer themselves to the saints. After seven years, they were restored to their estates, only to have them stripped from them yet again during the last persecutions before the Edict of Milan. Finally, their properties were restored to them. Their son married Emmelia and they in turn had 9 children, 5 of whom became saints because of the examples of three strong women: St. Macrina the Elder, a married woman; St. Emmelia, a married woman; and St. Macrina the Younger (the Nun), a virgin.

This family has much to teach us about how to live our lives as Orthodox Christians - with joy in the risen Lord, with hope for His second coming, and with faith that God's will is being done, even if we don't "see" it all the time.

This family speaks to all men and women, married and single, with one or 9 children, or childless, monastic or "in the world."

There is a new book about St. Macrina the Elder - Keeper of the Light: St. Macrina the Elder, Grandmother of Saints by Bev Cooke, an Orthodox Christian in Canada. It is available through the major Orthodox book purveyors as well as at Amazon.com. Althrough written simply so children can read it themselves, it contains profound examples for us in terms of how to live our lives so that we show forth God's love to those around us.

With Love in Christ,
Dr. Elizabeth, the sinner
and Perennial Student

[Olga]

At risk of sounding pedantic, there is also a sixth child of Venerable Emilia of Cappadocia who is recognised as a saint: Righteous Theosebeia the Deaconess. Some Western sources mistakenly list her as St Gregory of Nyssa's wife, not his sister.

[Elizabeth Riggs]

At risk of sounding pedantic, there is also a sixth child of Venerable Emilia of Cappadocia who is recognised as a saint: Righteous Theosebeia the Deaconess. Some Western sources mistakenly list her as St Gregory of Nyssa's wife, not his sister.

Thanks for that info. Wow - can you imagine living in a family like that? Saintly grandparents, saintly parents, and 6 saints among your sibs! And if you think about it, this is the kind of family we all are called to have, the kind of people we all are called to be! Yet this family realized and actualized it.

Through the prayers of the saintly family of Cappadocia, may God have mercy upon us all.

Love in Christ,
Elizabeth, the sinner
and Perennial Student

[Jo Norton]

There is a new married woman just canonised named Gianna Beretta Molla who died in 1962 of cancer at age 39. Also, there is a Blessed Anne mary Taigi (feast 9th June). Saint Elizabeth of Hungary was a about the only non widdowed happy one I think. Hope this helps.

[Nina]

Yes- sometime after their marriage St. John of Kronstadt & his wife took up living as 'brother & sister'. It is interesting to think how this may have complemented their marriage- after all they truly were married for the rest of their lives.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

What does "sometime after their marriage" mean please? Did they have children? I am thinking about the example of Saint Andronikos and Saint Athanasia and just would like to compare.

[Father David Moser]

What does "sometime after their marriage" mean please? Did they have children? I am thinking about the example of Saint Andronikos and Saint Athanasia and just would like to compare.

St John and his wife lived in chastity and virginity their whole lives. "Sometime after their marriage" means for the whole of their marriage. The arrangement was primarily due to the burning devotion of St John to our Lord. He and his wife lived quite separate lives - his being much more visible than hers, however, she was no less a devoted servant of God.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

St John and his wife lived in chastity and virginity their whole lives. "Sometime after their marriage" means for the whole of their marriage. The arrangement was primarily due to the burning devotion of St John to our Lord. He and his wife lived quite separate lives - his being much more visible than hers, however, she was no less a devoted servant of God.

Fr David Moser

Father, thank you.

I am thinking also about St. Alexis the Man of God, who was forced to get married and who did not wish to, and afterwards revealed this to his wife and lived as brother and sister. Is this the case for St. John and his wife also?

[Michael Stickles]

Father, thank you.

I am thinking also about St. Alexis the Man of God, who was forced to get married and who did not wish to, and afterwards revealed this to his wife and lived as brother and sister. Is this the case for St. John and his wife also?

In the life of St. John that I read, it said that he only got married because marriage was expected of those priests who live "in the world" (i.e., not in a monastery). So and that before the wedding, he and his wife-to-be agreed to live as brother and sister in their marriage. So they both went into the marriage with that expectation.

In Christ,
Mike

[Michael Stickles]

Guess I was remembering wrong. I checked some lives of St. John of Kronstadt online and found this on the website The Christian Message from Moscow (http://www.vor.ru/English/Christian_Message/program_7.html):



Several days later he was invited by the priest of the Cathedral of St.Andrew the First-Called, in Kronstadt, to marry his daughter Elizabeth. John had never thought of marriage before. He was like an angel and his thoughts never wandered anywhere close to the joys of matrimony. However, the coincidence of the vision and the invitation of the priest were a sign from above to him. He married Elizabeth and very soon was ordained priest...

However, the lives of prophets go their own way, different from those of ordinary people. Their lives cannot be copied. They can be only admired. As soon as Father John got married, he addressed his wife in the words she found very difficult to bear.

"Elizabeth, dear, there are enough happy families without us. Just take a look at the ocean of grief around. Let us serve the unhappy ones and live as brother and sister."

A young, beautiful, buxom woman found it very difficult to accept this offer from her husband whom she loved so much. It took her a while to reconcile herself with the offer of angelical life. We know that people become monks voluntarily, and not by force. Elizabeth's father told the bishop about the strange behavior of the young priest that was now his son-in-law. Wasn't he a victim of his own pride? Wasn't his left hand destroying what his right hand had just built? Father John remained firm and deaf to what his father-in-law and then the bishop were telling him. The situation was a very dramatic one. However, very soon it was resolved by interference from above, by God's providence. This is how it happened:

The bishop summoned Father John and again tried to persuade him to start a normal marital life. However, neither threats, nor fatherly advice had any effect. Father John replied with humbleness: "Your grace, there is no God's will to fulfill what you are asking of me."

On the part of Father John it was a very wrong and improper thing to do - he dared argue with the bishop himself, who pointed him to his mistake. In Father John's presence the bishop already signed an order prohibiting the young priest from serving in church until he corrected himself in his family affairs. At that moment everything around turned black in the eyes of the bishop and the oval image of the Mother of God his Grace wore on a gold chain round his neck fell to the floor. No one could understand how it happened. The bishop himself then fell to his knees in front of the young priest to ask for his forgiveness. The young priest quickly kneeled in front of the bishop and asked his forgiveness, too. The incident was settled and accord restored.

Very soon Father John's wife Elizabeth reconciled herself with her lot and became a true associate in all of her husband's undertakings. Their life was invariably calm and peaceful.

I had planned to do the check before making my last post, but accidentally hit "Submit Reply" instead of "Preview Post".

In Christ,
Mike

[Nina]

Thank you Mike!

[Mary]

I'd like to hear about married saints about whom it says: "They were happily married and loved each other deeply."

Personally, I don't think that the private life of a husband and wife is anybody's business but their own. Why mention 'brother and sister'? I'm sorry, but that bothers me so. It makes 'husband and wife' an inferior relationship. I don't want any talk about how marriage is equal to monastic life and stuff like that, it's usually the same arguements that keep coming up.

I need an example of a man and a woman who loved each other in a deep and intimate way, as God intended, for Adam and Eve. To point to every married saint and say they lived a celibate life, totally defeats the purpose of marriage, and of trying to prove that marriage is blessed by God. Is every marriage supposed to aim for celibacy?

If celibacy is indeed a higher way of life than being married, they why lie and pretend that they are equal? Perhaps that's only my understanding. But monasticism and marriage are presented as two equal and legitimate ways of life, in which one can work out one's salvation. However, if the aim of marriage is to train you to become monastic, then it's not true that they are equal.

Personally, I don't think they're equal. Marriage is for the 'weak' and for those who 'can't control their passions'... It's sort of like a license to make allowance for you sinfulness and hard heartedness. Sort of like the divorce that Moses said was ok, and Jesus said, Moses said it was ok, only because of the hardness of their hearts.

Anyways... although I never hear anyone speak ill of marriage, I get the feeling that they dont' truly believe that it's all good. Twice in the past 2 weeks, I heard: "But they lived as brother and sister..." (re: St Johh of Kronstadt) as if, somehow, that even mattered. As if, St John wouldn't have become a saint if he'd been a husband instead of a brother.

It's gotten to the point that I'm fed up of married saints living as brother and sister. Why even bother to get married then? Don't need to get married to have brothers and sisters. Is it wrong for a man to love a woman? Is it wrong for a woman to love a man? Please introduce me to a couple, of whom it is said: "And they lived as husband and wife". If there isnt' anyone, then... what hope is there for a husband and wife to work out their salvation?

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

Uh oh! I did not mean to open Pandora's Box here Mary, but I know some saints who were married. For example one of my beloved: Saint Spyridon. (http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=103526)

More about St. Spyridon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Spyridon)

[Olga]

Hello Mary

Saw your post, and I can quite understand your frustration regarding married saints. My humble understanding is that ther is nothing wrong or sinful at all with married couples having physical relations, as long as it doesn't become an obsession and take over their lives. Thre are indeed large numbers of married saints who led non-celibate married lives, but who still became saints (time does not permit me to give specific examples at the moment).

Look at the text of the Orthodox marriage ceremony: there is nothing at all in there which denigrates the sanctity of marriage and what goes with it. Particularly relevant is the fact that Christ's first miracle was at a wedding. The marriage service directly mentions this as a sign that the state of marriage is holy, and truly blessed by God. As for the idea that marriage is "for the weak", and the monastic life is somehow "superior", this is most certainly NOT the case, either from a scriptural, sacramental, or practical perspective. The monks and nuns I've had anything to do with are more likely to say that the married life is just as hard, if not harder, as those who are married live "in the world", and have to cope with all that it entails. Swings and roundabouts. God's not silly, He knows what's good for us.

Regarding St John of Kronstadt's situation: Given that I have not read a full account of his life, it seems from the posts on this thread that he was, in effect, dragooned (persuaded) into marrying by his priest and bishop, because it was seemingly "the right thing to do" in human terms. History shows that St John's bishop was indeed in error in insisting on this, and he had the good grace to see the error of his ways. If anything, this shows that St John was destined to live a celibate life, whether or not he was married. He was called by God to be that way.

[Mary]

Hello Mary

Saw your post, and I can quite understand your frustration regarding married saints. My humble understanding is that ther is nothing wrong or sinful at all with married couples having physical relations, as long as it doesn't become an obsession and take over their lives. Thre are indeed large numbers of married saints who led non-celibate married lives, but who still became saints (time does not permit me to give specific examples at the moment).

Dear Olga,

Thanks for writing. I find no fault in the actual teachings, texts, etc, that elevate the one over the other. Those are the same 'arguments' that I refered to, when I said I've heard it all.

Re the wedding in Cana, if Christ hadn't attended, would that have meant that he was against marriage? If He hadn't performed his first miracle there, would that have meant that marriages aren't blessed?

The discrepancy I find, is between what is taught, and what is praised. To date, I haven't heard a couple praised for loving each other. But I've heard plenty of praise for celibacy.

In Christ,
Mary.

PS - Nina, will read about St Spyridon when I get time. Thanks.

[Michael Stickles]

I'd like to hear about married saints about whom it says: "They were happily married and loved each other deeply."

Personally, I don't think that the private life of a husband and wife is anybody's business but their own. Why mention 'brother and sister'? I'm sorry, but that bothers me so. It makes 'husband and wife' an inferior relationship. I don't want any talk about how marriage is equal to monastic life and stuff like that, it's usually the same arguements that keep coming up.

When I was on a retreat last month at a (relatively) nearby monastery, I read an interesting compendium of the lives of married saints. The compiler, monk Moses of Mt. Athos, noted in the introduction that:


Almost nowhere within the lives is there a lengthy passage in praise of marriage. This is probably because the hagiographers were mostly good monks, whose virginity-loving dispositions did not allow them to easily praise marriage.

I found an amusing example of that mindset in the story of St. Mary the New, a married saint who had the gift of wonderworking. I read "... certain monks, overcome by jealousy, protested that it is impossible for one who lived in the world and ate meat and enjoyed conjugal pleasures to become a wonderworker ..." (note: they eventually came around). Another was this comment about St. Philogonius: "His marriage and occupation were no hindrance to his salvation."

The most interesting married saints I've found have been:

- St. Basil the Elder and St. Emmelia (May 30)
- St. Anna of Novgorod (Feb 10)
- St. Gorgonia (Feb 23)
- St. Gregory of Nazianzus (Jan 1) and St. Nonna (Aug 5)

I especially loved one line from the life of St. Nonna, regarding the time when her husband was still a pagan:


St Nonna prayed that her spouse would turn to the holy truth. St Nonna's son, St Gregory the Theologian, wrote about this: "She could not bear this, being half united to God, because he who was part of her remained apart from God. She wanted a spiritual union in addition to the bodily union. Day and night she turned to God with fasting and many tears, entreating Him to grant salvation to her husband."

It was said of several of the couples mentioned in the collection that their marriage was a "union of souls and bodies" or something to that effect. If you're interested, the title of the book was "Married Saints of the Church" by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain.

Mike

[Sophronia]

[QUOTE= then... what hope is there for a husband and wife to work out their salvation?

In Christ,
Mary.[/QUOTE]

Dear Mary,
May I share these words from Archimandrite Zacharias to a married priest who asked "We have a parish and a family, how can we keep this monastic life as a family, as a refuge?
Answer: I do not think you can keep a monastic life. I think it is wrong when some monks impose obedience on people living in the world. Obedience is only for monks, in monasteries, where the whole life is organized in the name of God and for the Liturgy. You cannot expect this from people living in the world. There, there are other rules. But we all have an obligation of obedience to the commandments of God. You have to respect your wife and your wife has to respect you. You have to be open and transparent, having no secret from your wife, and she from you; and you can have competition between the two of you: who will do the will of the other more? Then life is beautiful."

[Jonathan Michael]

Without wanting to go to deep into the discussion about what "happily married" actually means, I would just like to contribute a few married saints to the lists. Most of them come from "Holy families" of saints who are sainted together. This is probably appropriate, for if one person is a Saint and happily married, then it's likely their spouse will also be sainted as they are pulling under the same yoke.

I had a look at the saints for today (I'm under the old calendar) and found one straight away, the mother of St Sergius of Radonezh, Saint Maria. Her husband is St Cyril is also commerated today. They both ended their lives in seperate monastries, but this was late in life and by mutual consent. I can't link to anything about them, but you can find an account of their lives on the OCA website (http://www.oca.org) under the lives of the saints for the 18th Janurary.

There is also the Holy Martyr Felicitas (Jan 25), who was matyred with her seven sons in Rome during the second century (the sons obviously indicating she was married). That puts me in mind of the account in 3 Maccabees (?) of the mother who saw her husband and seven sons (the youngest being just 7 or 8 years old) being martyred for confessing the Old Covenant faith; however as far as I know they are not named and so not formally canonised.

Another holy family would be the Romanovs who died together at the hands of the Marxists. St Nicholas' sister-in-law, the Holy-matyr Elizabeth was a widow, but happily married before her husband's murder by a bomb-wielding terrorist.

Then there is St. Tatiana Chin the wife of St Mitrophan Chin and her daughter-in-law St. Maria, both married women saints who were among the 222 Chinese martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion:

http://orthodox.cn/history/martyrs/1_en.htm

Through all their prayers, may our souls be saved.

One final thought/query: isn't monastacism considered a form of marriage anway - a marriage directly to Christ - making all nun-saints "married" in any case?

[Linda]

When I was on a retreat last month at a (relatively) nearby monastery, I read an interesting compendium of the lives of married saints. The compiler, monk Moses of Mt. Athos, noted in the introduction that:...

I especially loved one line from the life of St. Nonna, regarding the time when her husband was still a pagan...

Mike

Thank you SO MUCH for introducing me to St. Nonna. It has been life-changing for me!

[Nina]

One final thought/query: isn't monastacism considered a form of marriage anway - a marriage directly to Christ - making all nun-saints "married" in any case?

This is such a good point!

Yesterday I was reading about some saints and I think St. (Martyr)Dorothea (sorry if I confuse the name since there were several saints mentioned there) while being led to execution was told in mocking by a pagan. "When you are there, send me some roses and apples from this Heaven of your Bridegroom!" and the saint replied: "I shall do that." And she prayed and Christ sent an angel in the form of a child who gave her (before her execution) a pure, pure white linen that had 3 apples and 3 roses. Saint Dorothea sent these to the pagan and said it should be given to him after her execution. So when the pagan received those was so stunned and because there was not the season for apples and roses and as he said there were not even leaves on trees, he kept being marveled and confessed he was a Christian too and became a martyr.

[Father David Moser]

One final thought/query: isn't monastacism considered a form of marriage anway - a marriage directly to Christ - making all nun-saints "married" in any case?

No, I don't think that is quite accurate. Monasticism is not a "form of marriage", it is a different path from marriage. In the lives of the saints, "marriage to Christ" is sometimes used as an allusion to monastic life, but that does not imply that monasticism is a form of marriage. If that were the case, then what of the male monastics - are they "married to Christ" as well? Do we then support a "form of gay marriage"? Ridiculous!!!

I will leave a fuller description of monasticism to the monastics (or near monastics) here who have more experience than I and thus simply stop at answering your question - no, monasticism is not a form of marriage.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

Oops! No, I did not think it that way. All the lives of women martyrs tell how they prefer to die for their Bridegroom instead of betraying Him. They are promised, dedicated to Christ. This is what I meant. That does not mean that they are married as in common marriage, but as in what the NT says Christ is the Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride.

[Jonathan Michael]

Father, bless me.

I am sorry, it looks like I may have taken the parallels between marriage and monastacism to extremes. I certainly wasn't comparing monastacism with common marriage in every way, because of course the fact that monastics are celibate remains a very big and important difference.

[Vasiliki D.]

Dear Mary, and others interested in this topic -

I'm curious - I've never heard this:

Since becoming Orthodox, I've been taught that if one decides to marry, sexual expression is not only appropriate, but faithful even beyond the desire to conceive. There is the theme that not to marry (and consequently, not to be concerned with physical sexual expression) is a path that allows the person to maintain a greater focus on Christ and living a Christian life. Sometimes that path is posed as 'better' even for lay people, and sometimes these two paths seem to be juxtaposed as each a faithful response to the Holy Spirit - as long as He's the 'Who' one is listening to.

I'm hoping people more knowledgable than I will respond; especially if sources can be quoted which I can't do, I'm afraid. I believe I've read about this in the Philokalia, St. Paul, and various writings, but I'm awful at keeping them sorted out, while also remembering to whom the text was addressed, which often makes a huge difference in understanding what the author was saying.

Thanks in advance - Melissa

I dont know if you are still part of Monachos, Melissa but I heard a sermon that discussed the Mary and Martha passage from the Gospels. This is the story of when Christ visited their home and Mary sat at Christ's feet and listened to him and Martha was in the kitchen preparing food and fussing over Christ in this way. At some point, Martha was upset with Mary for not helping her assist in preparing for their very special guest and she thought she would say something to Christ thinking she would get his support. Instead, Christ replied that Mary was better off listening to him while she had him.

The priest in the sermon pointed out that this is like an imagery of Married life versus Monastic life ... both are blessed! (See preparing to serve Christ is blessed and it pleases Christ) but sitting at his feet has a greater approval not because its better but only because it frees up your time to listen to what he has to say ... and truthfully we could all agree that with marriage comes the responsibilities of family. It is impossible to listen to Christ 24 hours a day ...both however are blessed by Christ ... has anyone else got anything further to add or modify or enhance on this passage and comparison?

[Stuart Dunn]

This lady is not a saint in the Roman Catholic terms (yet at least). And I'm not sure if there is a process of canonization in Orthodoxy as there is in Catholicism. It is an interesting 2 page read though. And definitely a good example that we are called to different vocations...be it a religious/monastic life or a life of laity.

http://www.familyland.org/PDF_Files/355-98%20Sainthood.pdf

[Vasiliki D.]

Jan 26/Feb 8: The Monk Xenophontes, his wife Maria and their sons Arkadios and John.

Xenophontes and his wife Maria were noted citizens of Constantinople and lived in the V Century. Despite riches and position, they distinguished themselves by their simplicity of soul and goodness of heart. Wishing to give their sons John and Arkadios a more complete education, they sent them off to the Phoenician city of Beirut. Through Divine Providence the ship on which both brothers sailed became ship-wrecked. The brothers were pitched by the waves onto shore at different places. Aggrieved at being separated, the brothers dedicated themselves to God and accepted monasticism. For a long time the parents received no news about their children and presumed them to have perished. Xenophontes, however, now already quite old, maintained firm hope in the Lord and consoled his wife Maria, telling her not to sorrow but to believe that their children were watched over by the Lord. After several years the spouses made pilgrimage to the Holy places and at Jerusalem they met their sons, pursuing asceticsm at different monasteries. The joyful parents gave thanks to the Lord for providently re-uniting the whole family. For the remainder of their lives, the monastics Xenophontes and Maria dedicated themselves to God and accepted monasticism. The Monks Arkadios and John, having taken leave of their parents, went out into the wilderness, where after long ascetic toil they were glorified by gifts of wonderworking and perspicacity. The monastic elders Xenophontes and Maria, having pursued asceticism in silence and strict fasting, also received of God the gift of wonderworking.

[Michael Stickles]

Andreas mentioned this couple in the "A question about women saints (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=74778#post74778)" thread, and it seemed fitting to mention them here also. The description below is from the OCA's Lives of the Saints (http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=101811) page (linked page includes icon).

Commemorated on June 25

Holy Prince Peter (David in monasticism) and Holy Princess Febronia (Euphrosyne in monasticism), Wonderworkers of Murom. Prince Peter was the second son of the Murom prince Yuri Vladimirovich. He entered upon the throne of Murom in the year 1203. Several years before this St Peter had fallen ill with leprosy, from which no one was able to heal him. In a vision it was revealed to the prince that the daughter of a bee-keeper would be able to heal him: the pious maiden Febronia, a peasant of Laskova village in Ryazan gubernia. St Peter sent his emissaries to this village.

When the prince saw St Febronia, he fell in love with her because of her piety, wisdom and virtue, and vowed to marry her after being healed. St Febronia healed the prince and became his wife. The holy couple loved each other through all their ordeals. The haughty boyars did not wish to have a princess of common origin, and they urged that the prince leave her. St Peter refused, and so they banished the couple. They sailed off on a boat from their native city along the River Oka, and St Febronia continued to console St Peter. Soon the wrath of God fell upon the city of Murom, and the people begged the prince return together with St Febronia.

The holy couple was famous for their piety and charity. They died on the same day and hour, June 25, 1228, having received the monastic tonsure with the names David and Euphrosyne. The bodies of the saints were put in the same grave.

Sts Peter and Febronia showed themselves exemplary models of Christian marriage, and are considered as the patron saints of newlyweds.

[John W.]

Pious Housewives from Holy Women of Byzantium published by Dumbarton Oaks Publications


Life of St. Mary the Younger
http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/HolyWomen/talbch3.pdf

Life of St. Theoktiste of Lesbos
http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/HolyWomen/talbch4.pdf

Sadly, these are not happily married women Saints. They earned their sainthood through the path of suffering, a path that my spouse tells me that she has undertaken herself.

[John W.]

Sorry, messed up the hyperlinks.

Holy Women of Byzantium: http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/ATHWC.html

[Nina]

Pious Housewives from Holy Women of Byzantium published by Dumbarton Oaks Publications


Life of St. Mary the Younger
http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/HolyWomen/talbch3.pdf

Life of St. Theoktiste of Lesbos
http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/HolyWomen/talbch4.pdf

Sadly, these are not happily married women Saints. They earned their sainthood through the path of suffering, a path that my spouse tells me that she has undertaken herself.

:) You are providing material to feminists! j/k

[Olga]

:) You are providing material to feminists!


I hate silence, when it is time to speak. (Venerable Kassiane the Hymnographer).

The good saint is these days a "poster girl" for modern feminists, but, were she alive today, I suspect she would wish to have little, if anything, to do with them. An intelligent and fearless woman, with a sharp tongue, St Kassiane would have few qualms about putting them in their places.

[Nina]

I hate silence, when it is time to speak. (Venerable Kassiane the Hymnographer).

The good saint is these days a "poster girl" for modern feminists, but, were she alive today, I suspect she would wish to have little, if anything, to do with them. An intelligent and fearless woman, with a sharp tongue, St Kassiane would have few qualms about putting them in their places.

Feminist? hmmm I wonder where do they see feminism in her those feminists!

You know what those wise people who retreat to the desert do well.

[Kusanagi]

ha i love feminists they say lots of silly things.

In England there were many married women saints. Most married saints do not really lead happy lives, because marriage life is not meant to be all happy joyful without struggles like most modern people think. It is a constant path of struggle. It how they deal with these struggles that makes them saints.

[Nina]

ha i love feminists they say lots of silly things.

he he he I love them too just do not want them to take one of my favorite saints and start owning her, or use her for their agenda! Like it has been done with the rainbow.



In England there were many married women saints. Most married saints do not really lead happy lives, because marriage life is not meant to be all happy joyful without struggles like most modern people think. It is a constant path of struggle. It how they deal with these struggles that makes them saints.

This is a great insight and actually John W. impressed me also by saying similar insight above, since I had never thought what you two are saying (and thank you for mentioning it!). However a relationship between spouses doesn't have always martyric for one to be glorified... does it? I mean nice, gentle to each other spouses have gone to Heaven too, no? We have some married saints who have had a nice, respectful, loving relationship with each other. Like Saint Anna and Saint Joachim; Saint Athanasia and Saint Andronicus; Saint Angelina of Serbia and her glorified family etc.