Foreknowledge and falling away

[Bryan Wooten]

Hello, all -- first time post on this forum.

Actually just brought this over from another forum because of a recommendation from someone on said forum. Any help would be appreciated.

POSTER FROM FORUM WROTE:
"Romans 8:29-30 >

"29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified (NASB).

"Please explain how Paul could mean here that some who are foreknown and justified will not also be glorified, as I understand the Orthodox to believe." (END QUOTE)

I mentioned 2 Tim. 2:11-13, which says that if we deny Him, He denies us, but if we are faithless, He remains faithful.

Any hints on the difference between "disowning" Him and "being faithless" to Him? They seem to have different effects on our relationship to God. Any help from Greek speakers in the forum would be greatly appreciated.

Gracias,
Pedro

[matt]

Pedro,
This is a very interesting topic and is usually a bone of contention bwn Orthodox and Protestants.

You quote: “Please explain how Paul could mean here that some who are foreknown and justified will not also be glorified, as I understand the Orthodox to believe." I have never heard of this understanding. Who says that? Although we may differ in glorification from one another, does it follow that some are simply not glorified at all? I would be interested to know what others have to say about this and how they would define glorification.

I understand that some Protestants would object to any distinction made in glorification, since they tend towards a democratic distribution of both guilt and glory in their various models of predestination, but it hardly seems right to think that the Theotokos and I would share the same glory. My mirror is hardly as pure as hers to reflect God’s glory. I remember an Orthodox fellow saying to a group of teenagers, “The Apostles were just like us!” That is true in a very real sense, but are they now? Are we going to go to St Paul and backslap him asking, “So what was that vision of the seventh heaven really like?” Somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, I think a general Orthodox approach to faithfulness on our part or God’s would follow what Bishop Kallistos Ware said in response to a similar question. “God is completely faithful, but for my own part may I not always until the end be able to reject God’s love?” Of course this doesn’t specifically address your question about St Paul writing to Timothy, but it is a start.

And not to go way off track, but it is important to remember that any question about grace or faithfulness for a Protestant is intimately tied to their understandings of the Fall, guilt, grace, freedom, predestination and ultimately Christology. They are all tied together and form the heart of their soteriology. I only mention this because we can talk around each other and never address the more fundamental issues at stake. It is like debating the possibility of miracles with someone who doesn’t believe in a god.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mr Bryan Wooten,

Thank you for your post, and welcome to the community.

The quotation which you present is somewhat confusing:


Please explain how Paul could mean here that some who are foreknown and justified will not also be glorified, as I understand the Orthodox to believe.

This is confusing because, in Romans 8.30, Paul actually says:


Those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified.

Your speaker (whomever you were quoting from another discussion) seems to have divided those who are 'foreknown' and 'justified' from those who are 'glorified'; but St Paul connects all three in a single thread from foreknowledge to glory.

I think that before it is possible to understand how Orthodox interpret Paul here, one ought to give due consideration first to what is actually meant by such terms as 'predestination', 'foreknowledge', 'justification', 'glory'. Without appreciating the Orthodox understanding of these concepts, seeing how they fit together in Paul's thought will be impossible.

INXC, Matthew