Homosexuality, ascesis and human nature

[Emmanuel]

I am what you may call a revert to Holy Orthodoxy. I was born into a Greek family, but was sent to Protestant and Catholic schools for instruction. I essentially adopted the faith of wherever I went to school as the Faith was really not taught at home. Thanks to the grace of God, however, I have realized the beauty of Orthodoxy. I would like to learn about the Greek Orthodox tradition more as I am considered a vocation to the Holy Diaconate for when I am older. I am currently a college student.

What I would like to do is spend some time in an Orthodox Monastery, hopefully one of Fr. Ephraim's. I would like to learn the Greek tradition well enough to teach others.

However, I have a few questions that I would like to be answered. First of all, due to my education at a Catholic school, there seemed to be a homosexual undercurrent among some of the clergy. For example, Matthew shephard was considered a "martyr." Saints were often depicted as homosexuals (if they existed at all) or had eating disorders if they fasted. I would not like to be in an environment like that ever again. I am aware of some of the abuses in some Orthodox monasteries and I do not want to be scandalized any more.

Nevertheless, I know some wonderful amazing Orthodox celibates who do great things for the faith. Has it been your experience that Orthodox monasteries take "homo-suspect" candidates? Wouldn't this be forbidden by our Church law? If so, which ones should I avoid? I am currently struggling with chastity (with girls of course) and I need a spiritual director who can relate. I hate to be rude, but having to endure a pro-homosexual environment for years- I don't want to ever do it again. I am looking forward to your responses.

God Bless the Orthodox Faith

Emmanuel

[matt]

Emmanuel,

Since you are only about 30 miles form Holy Dormition monastery in Rives Junction, I would strongly suggest that you speak with Fr. Roman Braga, the spiritual father of that community. He is an experienced monastic and a confessor for the faith under Romanian communists (solitary confinement,torture, etc). It is about 25 minutes south of Lansing by jackson.

Matt

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Emmanuel,

As a monastic myself I would urge you to follow Matthew's advice. A monastic spiritual father would be best able to deal with the questions you have raised and Fr Roman Braga is certainly someone special & trustworthy in this regard.
May God guide you.

In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

[Alex Haig]

Dear Emmanuel

Firstly, I hope and pray that you find the path that Christ has chosen for you. I can only agree with the advice given already, speaking to a Spiritual Father face-to-face is far better than people who have never met you saying what you should do.

Secondly, I am troubled by some of the comments made regarding homosexuals. There is evidence that it is not a social choice but is something which one is born with: it is evident that it has existed for as long as mankind has, otherwise there would not be rules forbidding the act in both the Bible and Canons.

I am not trying to justify homosexuality, but I am trying to separate being a homosexual from practising homosexual activities. It is clear that monks (and nuns) struggle against the passions, whether they manifest themselves as heterosexual or homosexual: to exclude any on these grounds seams to me to be wrong and go against Christ’s command to love one another.

With love in Christ

Alex

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Alex,

If as you say,


"regarding homosexuals. There is evidence that it is not a social choice but is something which one is born with."

If so then this would mean that God has created some to be homosexual and probably others lesbian. This could not be.

The relationship between male & female is something that corresponds fundamentally to the nature that God created us with and it is particularly sanctified within the sacrament of marriage. It surely is of great significance that the Church could not ever have remotely contemplated a similar sanctification for a homosexual relationship.

As a sin homosexuality has possibly been around for as long as mankind but it is fundamental to our theological and anthropological understanding to realise that this was so after the Fall. It is as such that the Scriptures & Canons strictly forbid it and refer to it quite explicitly as sin.

However it is important to deal with this in a compassionate way since these are values which are socially promoted as positive nowadays. It also seems that this is one of those topics which we are called to develop in a deeper way a theological & pastoral response to.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Just to say maybe something obvious, say your prayers and ask God, His mother, your Guardian Angel, all the Saints, all the ranks of Angels and every Saint who pleased God from the 1st to the last Adam, to bless your meeting,

by the way, maybe you could ask him to pray for us also, that we may abound more in the Love of God.

With love in Christ
Charalambos

[Edward Henderson]

Dear Emmanuel,

I don't think one will find homosexuality as big a problem among Orthodox clergy and monastics as is found among the Latins. First and foremost, Orthodox Christianity has a much higher understanding of masculinity and femininity than found in contemporary culture. Second, we have married clergy. While there are celebate non-monastic priests, it is not encouraged. There is a saying at Saint Vladimir's Seminary, "no band on the hand, no hands on the head". Thirdly, Orthodoxy is ascetic and understands that we all have passions we would rather not have but that our task is to struggle against them for our salvation. I am certain there are probably men and women living in Orthodox monasteries who have struggled with homosexuality, but they are living the monastic life. It is interesting to note that before Vatican II, parish priests lived in a more communal setting and were expected to be dressed in their cassocks, when on the streets. So, it was more monastic. After the Council, everything changed and Catholic priests were more independent. I think the fact that communal life, whether it be in a family or a monastery, is still valued and preserved among the Orthodox has played a significant role in this issue. I know myself that I find it easier to fight against temptations when I am among other Orthodox Christians. This is another reason why the hermits were considered the greatest ascetics because they were spiritually strong enough to struggle alone.

I have heard great things about Fr. Roman Braga and the monasteries of Elder Ephraim are literally Athos in America. When I went to Mt Athos in 2001, my first thought when I arrived at the monastery was, "this reminds me Holy Archangels Monastery in Texas". You may want to consider Mount Athos.

[Owen Jones]

You people are looking at this issue in the abstract. But the facts on the ground are this: a very strong element in the Roman Church in America (even more so in the Episcopal Church) is homosexual and have grabbed control of a number of the seminaries going way back. They encourage homosexuals to become priests to add to their available sex partners. They recruit them. A large number have alcohol and drug problems. This gets back to a decision made after World War II, when there was an established precedent that homosexuals would be protected from misbehavior by the mass. Homosexuals used this argument, fomented this argument, to aggrandize their poistion within the Church. In the Episcopal Church, all of the large urban dioceses are controlled by homosexuals and the plum parishes are given to homosexuals and those are the people who become bishops.

It is a problem to be wary of in any Orthodox monastic setting, but not politically pervasive like it is in the RC Church and the Episcopal Church. One simply has to be discerning.

[matt]

on the issue of sexual orientation, I think that it is not unorthodox to say that the Fall has as one of its results the perversion of the sexual instinct, if not one of the main results!

Matt

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Love your neighbour as yourself, God with all your mind and all your heart, may everything we do be the fruits of this. Let God guide you to Fr.
with love in Christ

[Alex Haig]

Dear Father Raphael, your blessing.

Above you said:


If as you say, "regarding homosexuals. There is evidence that it is not a social choice but is something which one is born with." If so then this would mean that God has created some to be homosexual and probably others lesbian. This could not be.

Why could this not be so? Surely people can be born with tendancies to sin (steal, murder, homosexuality &c) which have to be struggled with and the Church must support them in the same way that people are born cleverer or better at sport &c. It seams to me to deny these differences denies our individuality.

Is this view incorrect? If so, why? Does anyone know anything from the Fathers regarding this? Is it wrong to say that people can be born with a pre-disposition to sin (although not guilty of that sin until it is commited of course)?

With love in Christ

Alex

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I am especially reacting against the notion that there are those who are homosexual by nature. What I am getting at in particular is: are some created by God as homosexual to which the obvious answer should be-no. As St John of Damascus says, "all things which God makes He makes good, but each one becomes good or evil by his own choice." So sin is to be ascribed to us and not God or how we are created. And if sin is part of our nature then it surely would be impossible to struggle against it meaningfully or overcome it.

However I am not sure of the answer to the second part of your question. I am in the midst of corresponding with Fr George Morelli who posts here sometimes. We are discussing the significance of the inclinations or tendencies to sin. Are we born with these tendencies or do we aquire them? Is sexuality one of the blameless passions? Any insights here would be appreciated. I have sometimes wondered if the sinful passions are deformed versions of something good in us but I have no clear idea of how this applies to the theme we are discussing.

I would say that the talents we are born with are part of our God-given character: eg clever, better at sport, etc. Unless I have really fallen off the boat however, my understanding is that homosexuality on any level is sinful- whether we are talking of inner impulse or action. So a sinful inclination is not a talent or unique aspect of our character as God intended it.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Gregory Erickson]

The way this conversation is framed is very Western. In the West the idea of an inherent predisposition to anything, homosexual or otherwise, is called anthropological monism; or in plain English, there is nothing more to the human person than what a few chemicals can produce in our brain, not unlike that of an animal. We are "disposed" to certain behaviors. We aren't to blame if we act out on our impulses if what the scientists say is true.

So if man is created in the image of God, and that image is found, as the Fathers say, in the non-physical parts of us, then either the Fathers are correct, or they were genetically programmed to think that way as there aren't any *real* non-physical attributes. God and the devil play with our genetic switches to get us to do whatever they bid, making us in effect, automatons.

At risk in accepting Western terms for understaning human behavior of any sort, good or bad, is the idea that God left us in the dark for all these millenia until He finally decided to grant revelation knowledge to new apostles and prophets; the scientists and the philosophers of science.

From what I've read in the Fathers, Orthodoxy has always had the fullness of the deposit of truth and revelation; that whatever God does through the Church, be it the creation of Holy Writ, the establishment of the canons and Councils, or anything else in our Tradition, is done without corruption or confusion, and is preserved by God inerrantly and infallably throughout time and space.

[Emmanuel M.]

First of all, I would like to thank you all for your posts. I think Converts are, and have been, the future of American Orthodoxy. I do believe in the moderate use of Liturgical language (such as Greek) in the Liturgy. Does anyone have any idea on a specific monastery around Michigan where I could learn more about the Greek tradition- such as chanting, serving, reading liturgical greek, etc? I would prefer a more traditional monastery. I know of the monastery in Rives Junction, and I would love to go there. However, a place where I can learn the Greek Tradition would really be amazing.

I welcome your posts

Emmanuel

[Gregory Erickson]

Here would be a good start.

http://omna.nettinker.com/

Look under state or jurisdiction. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Byron Jack Gaist]

As a western-educated Orthodox, I am also used to thinking of human anthropology in terms of inherited and accquired psychobiological characteristics. Most behaviours in this model, including homosexuality, might have aetiological factors of both heredity and environment. But I am fascinated to read in Mr Erickson's post that the Fathers said that the image of God is found in the non-physical parts of us, and therefore genetic predisposition is unrelated to this image. Maybe so, but does not God then use the vehicle of the body, and our genetic predispositions, to aid us in our work of moving from image to likeness? If so, then the fact that some genetic predispositions seem to hinder this work, or incline us towards particular sins, must be a result of the corruption of our physical nature as a result of the fall. Which makes me think of the debate on Christ's humanity - again if I understand correctly, it is the teaching of our church that Christ assumed the human nature of prelapsarian Adam. My question is, if Christ did not assume our fallen human nature, with all its evil incinations and temptations to sin, and then defeat sin and death through His perfect submission to the Will of the Father, then how has the possibility of not sinning been offered to us? How have the effects of the Fall been reversed by the Incarnation? And, if we say that the image of God is found only in our non-physical aspect, are we not in danger of falling into a Gnostic disparagement of the human body and the good material world which the Lord in His infinite wisdom created? These are genuine questions, I do not mean them rhetorically.

A perplexed brother in Christ,

Byron

[matt]

Emmanuel,
If you are interested in the Greek tradition I would suggest that you speak with Fr mark Seitsema (sp?) at Holy Trinity in Lansing. Perhaps that is your parish while you are at MSU. Anyway, he is a linguistic and theological wonderboy and is the best local/regional resource and authority on the Greek tradition. He is fluent in many languages, including modern and liturgical Greek and, while he is not a monk, I believe he is also very familiar with the monastic office and can certainly point you in the right direction.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Byron,

I would say that at those times when the Holy Frs refer the image of God to the soul they mean this in the sense that the image resides chiefly in the soul. On the other hand the soul informs the body and spirit should inform the soul. All of these are in sympathy with each other. So in this sense I would say that the image of God also resides in the body.

There are many examples from Church life that illustrate this respect which the Church shows the Body but one of course is the respect shown it at burial (ie the reposed are not to be cremated). In the funeral service, in Slavonic at least, the word for the body is actually 'relics'. And we kiss or venerate the body of the reposed at the funeral.

There seems good reason however why the Holy Frs would not start with the physical aspect when they refer to the image. This would be to avoid giving a materialistic interpretation to the image.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Gregory Erickson]

For Mr. Gast,

I concur with Fr. Raphael's understanding of the role of the body with our non-physical attributes.

We have the witness of the Scriptures and the Liturgy that Jesus was tempted as we are tempted (The Gospels; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15).

Remember also that pre-lapsarian Adam was likewise tempted, yet he fell, genetic mutation/variation not a consideration.

This issue, ultimately, centers on one of the attributes of being made in the image of God, and that is free will. Either Adam (and therefore the rest of mankind) and the Lord Jesus excercised their free will, or mankind has deceived itself for thousands of years.

[Herman Blaydoe]

One of Fr. Ephraim's monasteries is located in Smith Creek, MI. What little information currently exists can be found at:

Holy Trinity Monastery (http://omna.nettinker.com/trinity.htm)

If you happen to visit, let me know anything you find out so I can update the OMNA directory.

Locations of all the Ephraimite monasteries can be seen here:

Monasteries founded by Fr. Ephraim (http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/Map.htm)

[Owen Jones]

The story of Adam and Eve go a long way toward a rational understanding of why things are the way they are. The essential ingredient is that suffering and death, which we all experience in some sense as not right, unjust, unnatural, is not the result of some failure on God's part, but our fault. Those are the only two alternatives.

Otherwise, God is limited in intelligence, power, goodness or foresight, and the conceit is that had we gotten there first, we would have created things much better. In fact, the entire modern project is predicated on this conceit.

The pre-philosophic Greek understanding of tragedy and sin is that the gods are tricksters who are always fighting among themselves, trying to outsmart each other, vainglorious and vengeful toward each other, and when bad things happen on earth, it's because the god's are fueding among us and get us caught up in their squabbles. The magical view is that disease, death, injustice, suffering are caused by evil curses, and to deflect these evil curses one must propitiate the demons through various sacrifices and incantations.

We get hung up on the specifics of the Genesis story and tend to forget how much it is an advance in man's revealed knowledge. It goes as far as it is possible to go in our understanding. It is a compact, cosmogonic myth, upon which everything else in Christianity depends for its meaning, including the Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection, the whole thing. A true understanding of Christian theology depends on a true understanding of Creation.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

What I said on Wednesday needs balancing. God does not create anything sinful but on the other hand there is original sin. At the time I wasn't sure how to balance the two in such a specific situation as we were discussing. But I came across this from Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos this morning and I think it is very useful to the discussion: "we can speak of inheritance of sin and of the ancestral sin, which man inherits at birth. In this sense too we can speak of the catholicity of the fall of man."

In this sense we are all born with sinful inclinations. But we must be very careful when we use the language of society. When it was said above, "There is evidence that it is not a social choice but is something which one is born with." Usually society means to say that we are born by nature in such a fashion. The problem with this is that theologically as I see it, if we are really born by nature like this then how could it justifiably be called sin and how could we ever struggle against it? In this case society's assumptions would actually be correct-what the Church calls sin is actually an inherent part of human nature (at least for that person) and it is useless- in a sense even anti-human- to fight against such tendencies.

Again we come back to the question of language which has often been brought up at monachos. If we must use the phrase, "born like that" in the way used above it is crucial to understand that we are referring to original sin & not nature. When we would say "born like that" we fully assume a struggle against the sin we are born with. So when we would say, "it is not a social choice" there is an important nuance that even though we are born with sinful inclinations we still have free will. In this sense it is very much a "social choice"

An important added note which applies to all struggles of this sort. To relate these struggles to free will is not to deny the difficulty of the struggle. Our Orthodox interpretation of free will should not translate as simply saying, "it's just a matter of exerting yourself." This is false in many cases & is a materialist/worldly interpretation of free will as if it is just a matter of getting into the car and turning on the key. From an Orthodox understanding the free will is not simply exerted in a certain direction- rather it must be transfigured through humility & repentance so that it is reborn. It is chiefly in this sense that the will becomes free of its shackles of death.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andrea]

Father, bless.

So repentance from the passions means to deny them, right? But isn't that an act of the will? I'm having trouble differentiating between mystical transformation into His likeness (evidenced by displaying more virtues) by the prayer of the heart, and trying to change bad habits, such as speaking to my children disrespectfully. Sorry if this should not be in the monastics folder, but I also have trouble differentiating the monastic struggle from how we are all called to struggle against sinful temptations.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Andrea,

Please forgive my intrusion into your conversation with Fr.Raphael.

I couldn't help but notice that you differentiate between and "bad habits" and sin. We look at a lot of things as "normal", or as habits which are in reality sins, the very things which we struggle against to attain the virtues of godliness.

Dispassion, or in layman's terms, the state of not being tempted by the normal passions of the body, is not just a monastic struggle. The only difference is that the ascetic struggle of the monk is more focused, as all the various distractions we're so used to, are absent.

The Apostle Peter's second epistle to the Aisian Church is informative. Remember Peter had a wife, but look at the things which he wrote to them to "...add to their faith..." in the first chapter. They are no different than what a monk struggles to attain, in the community of brother monks, instead of in the secular world. The indictment is in the words, "For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." The Apostle Paul talks of these sins, not bad habits; anger, wrath malice, slander abusive speech, bitterness, and by negative comparison to love in 1Cor. 13 numerous others. James mentions jealousy and selfish ambition as catalysts of "...disorder and every evil thing." Again, they were not writing to monks, but to brothers and sisters in the faith. compare the list of Galatians 5:22-26 with that of 2nd Peter 1:1-9. Paul says,"... against such there is no law....", while Peter proclaims "...for if these things are yours and abound you will neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (the NASB says increasing, where the NKJV says abound).

Just in case I may have confused you with all the "extra stuff", the bottom line is this: The opposite of the virtues which we struggle to attain is sin, many of which we rationalize away as "bad habits". Therefore, without regard to settings, the ascetic struggle is always the same, victory over the flesh, the world, and the devil,or DISPASSION / THEOSIS.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Andrea]

Thank you James for your answer.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I'm new to Orthodoxy and it's language. I do equate "bad habits" with sin. In fact, probably the sins we struggle against the most are habitual sins. I have 3 (of which I am currently most painfully aware) that I can't seem to conquer. You accurately described the one that hurts my children the most - "anger, wrath malice, slander abusive speech, bitterness".

But in conquering our passions, or acheiving "DISPASSION / THEOSIS", is it more a struggle of our will, or a result of practicing the prayer of the heart? Or both?

What is the best method when we feel these passions arise?

[Gregory Erickson]

Andrea,

The short answer to your question is both. I want to defer the bulk of the response to my betters, but perhaps I might be allowed to point you to a couple of books that have helped me out in the past:

"The Arena" by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and "The Art of Prayer" by the Igumen Chariton of Valamo. If I'm not mistaken, both of these books can be found on eighth day publisher's website

http://www.eighthdaybooks.com

Perhaps your priest can recommend to you someone who would be a good spiritual parent. The books are very helpful, but even they recommend using them alongside frequent confession, communion, and spending time asking questions of your spiritual parent(s).

It is as the Apostle says: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in you, both to will and to do according to His purposes."

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Owen Jones]

Rooting out habitual sin is a lot like rooting out violent crime in a big city like New York. You don't wait for a murder to take place. You arrest the guy who is painting graffiti on buildings or busting windows. Arrest them right away, charge them, convict them of a small crime, put them in the county jail, and hope that they have learned their lesson by the time they get out. This nipping of crime in the bud was extremely successful in NYC over a decade in reducing major crime like violent assault, rape, murder, etc.

We must attack habitual sin within in exactly the same manner. We must be constantly on guard, monitoring our thoughts, and as any hint of anger or resentment or self-centered fear begins to creep into our consciousness, we have to cast it out through prayer, immediate confession to God, and through some kind of righteous actions that divert our attention away from the demon and toward God. In very, very small, seemingly insignificant things is this done. We must begin to recognize the states of consciousness and feelings that are precursors to these habitual sins. These are typically associated with some sort of inner agitation over something, like a bad memory, or something that has happened recently that we cannot accept or tolerate, or that we deem threatening to our self-esteem. This inner agitation is almost always the precursor to some sort of habitual sin. If we wait and lose it we are befuddled because we think we have been working hard to fight the sin, and when we are unsuccessful we feel disheartened. But it is because we are not paying attention to the little things. It's like a homeowner who is penny wise and pound foolish regarding annual upkeep on his house. Over five or ten years he discovers that his foundation is rotted from termites and he needs a new roof.

It's the daily maintenance that matters. That way, we can lay our heads on the pillow each night knowing the feeling of daily victory over the demons in the small things. That gives us strength and hope.

You are not going to find a priest who you can call everyday, several times a day, to be able to discuss your innermost thoughts. That is simply not going to happen, even though it might be the ideal. If possible, find another layman, or a small group of laymen willing to engage in this struggle together. Most clergy know nothing of the practical elements of the spiritual life. They only know the doctrinal elements they have been taught in seminary. So one problem is that when you go to your priest and make your confession about your big sins, he grants absolution, sends you on your way, and yet there remains this nagging feeling.

There is an excellent little guide published by the OCA that is a companion to the book on prayer by the Russian monk and saint, whose name escapes me, known as "the Recluse." I would recommend getting your hands on this and sharing it, patiently, with some other Church members, try to get the priests' blessing, and put together a small group that can share one another's burdens through this. There is no end point at which you "graduate."

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Anrea,

What the others have written above is very good. We are called to find our Life in Christ and thus overcome the passions. And this struggle is common to us all. Even though the way of life of a monastic is distinct, its aim- Life in Christ- is common to all.

If I understand you correctly I would say that the beginning of the spiritual life is to struggle against what is sinful in ourselves; ie the passions. This is begun by exerting the will against things like anger, etc. We are helped in this struggle by participation in a sacramental life, attending services, prayer, spiritual reading and so on. But this is still not the end of our life in Christ. With this we have begun a life of self-denial (the ascetic life) but we still have not necessarily begun to attain our resurrection. Resurrection begins when the effort we make on a human level transforms into virtue. To give an example: we begin by restraining ourselves when angry. We struggle vs thoughts & feelings. Through this we are given the grace to continue and make this struggle fruitful by our spiritual life in the Church.

But the actual end is to feel love for those whom we felt driven to distraction by before. Certainly we cannot attain this love by human means. If a person insults and hurts you, you can only find love for them in Christ. And this is the actual aim of our spiritual life: love.

May I suggest that you read the Conversation of St. Seraphim of Sarov with Nicholas Motovilov? This is a wonderful book that goes into many of the above themes, & especially describes how the grace we strive for in our day to day spiritual life is the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andrea]

Thanks for your thoughtful, and wise replies, Gregory and Owen.

You both recommended a spiritual parent besides the priest. Mine has said he's a father confessor and not a spiritual father. His advice was to hug my kids when I got home from confession and tell them I love them. Which I'm sure helped from their end. People I've talked to say it's hard to find a spritual parent, that it's a rare thing these days. We go to an OCA church, and Mother Thecla has offered her email address. So maybe she has some recommendations. Our church is very small, and far away.

Owen, you hit the nail on the head in describing the nitty gritty that I'm looking for. And I think daily conversation with a wise, parental Orthodox person would help.

"We must begin to recognize the states of consciousness and feelings that are precursors to these habitual sins. These are typically associated with some sort of inner agitation over something, like a bad memory, or something that has happened recently that we cannot accept or tolerate, or that we deem threatening to our self-esteem."

This is the root of my agitation. How insightful. The world spends lots of money going to psychiatrists once a week for this type of discussion. But I think the answer is in Orthodoxy. And in monastics in particular. Reading is helpful, but it's one-way information. You can't tell the author your personal details and how they apply. Are monastics generally open to being lay-people's spiritual parents? I'm speaking generally here, I'm not fishing. Maybe I should try to develop this sort of relationship with a lay-person at my church instead. But since monks and nuns are so much more able to focus, and if they've achieved dispassion and theosis, they would seem to be the most therapeutic connection.

[Gregory Erickson]

Andrea,

I'd sure take Mother Thecia up on her offer!

Most importantly, pray and believe God will send someone to you that can be your spiritual parent, because the fact of the matter is that He will not leave you orphaned. He does not stir in us a desire for holiness and then abandon us.

His timing is His own, but He will not fail you.

[Andrea]

Fr. Raphael,

Also helpful:


"Resurrection begins when the effort we make on a human level transforms into virtue. To give an example: we begin by restraining ourselves when angry. We struggle vs thoughts & feelings. Through this we are given the grace to continue and make this struggle fruitful by our spiritual life in the Church."

You're saying, we restrain and He transforms? How I long for the resurrection you speak of, and to actually feel love instead. I have read St. Seraphim's conversation with Motovilov. In fact, y'all's (I'm from Texas) responses have been reminding me of St. Seraphim. I love how he changed from avoiding women in the beginning, then developed such a fatherly, loving, therapeutic nurturance of them after his "hermit" time. Is that a fair observation? I actually desire a spiritual father more than a spiritual mother, but as the Lord wills.

[Andrea]

"Most importantly, pray and believe God will send someone to you that can be your spiritual parent, because the fact of the matter is that He will not leave you orphaned. He does not stir in us a desire for holiness and then abandon us."

Gregory,

The thing I'm so thankful for in Orthodoxy is the communion of the Church. Where saints and brethren minister God to us in a supernatural, mystical way. Sola Scriptura/Sola meola is an orphaned position that has left me starving. I feel that you also have been given supernatural insight into the root of my agitation. A feeling of abandomnent, rejection, and of being a disconnected orphan. That's what St. Seraphim called the nuns. I was trying to remember that yesterday. Orphans. God is so good.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Andrea,

You wrote,


"we restrain and He transforms? How I long for the resurrection... and to actually feel love instead."

Yes it is by leading an active spiritual life that this transformation gradually occurs. Through this we learn the value of endurance; of getting up after falling down, over & over again. Gradually we do become aware of His love in how this transforms our lives.

Yes St Seraphim was the ultimate spiritual father. His love was a great radiance that transformed many lives. But this was based on his many years of struggle. And especially his love was based on humility gained through his struggle in Christ. As they say, "no blood, no Spirit."

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

I was trying to think of Theophan the Recluse's book How to Pray. There is a companion guide to this published by the OCA. A small group of laymen can work on this together. It is very fulfilling, if you can find a priest who will bless it without undermining it, since many priests are unfortunately very territorial about such things.

[Andrea]

Dear Fr. Raphael,


"And especially his love was based on humility gained through his struggle in Christ."

Now you're really stepping on my toes. I was feeling all sorry for myself, and now you bring up humility. Pride is another root of my angry feelings. Sin can be so complex! "How dare you kids act that way! If only you were more like me." Which brings up another question. We confess that we are the chiefest of sinners, yet I can't help but think there are those worse than me. How do we deal with that honestly?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Andrea,

You wrote,


"We confess that we are the chiefest of sinners, yet I can't help but think there are those worse than me. How do we deal with that honestly?"

By saying to ourselves honestly, "I still feel that others are worse than I. So I am not yet humble and not yet home." Or at least by having words or an attitude similar to this.

But it all takes time, God's time. If things came easily they would be of little worth. What we are striving for is beyond all price- eternal life in Christ, beginning even now.
God will respond to us in the way we need and beyond if we keep pursuing a life in Christ. Even when seen through our human eyes things seem lacking in the outer situation He will respond with exactly what we need- which is not always the same as what we want! The most important thing is to keep going; the worst thing is worldly indifference.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

The answer is that we should not compare our sins to those of others at all, but only our own sins today to our sins yesterday.

[Andrea]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

Your references to "resurrected" love, and the "home" of the humble really strike a chord in my heart, and remind me somehow of Abraham in Heb 11:10:

"For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.... having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city."

And your reminder of a slow, hard-won victory is sobering.

[Andrea]

Dear Owen,

Theophan the Recluse also seemed to have a place in his heart for nuns. Having extra meetings with some church people is a little difficult because it's hard to coordinate with everyone's schedule, and because of childcare issues. Also in my present circumstance, peaceful, unobtrusive, flexible internet communication is working right now. That is how I found Orthodoxy in the first place. Through a protestant christian forum.

I don't know about not comparing sins. If we have the right humble attitude about our own sins, then we would probably honestly not see ours as better or worse than others', even if we did put them side by side. Plus when you are responsible for disciplining others, you have to evaluate their sins.

[Sr Helen Stout OHP]

Fr Raphael
Thank you for your wise advice. I'm an Anglican nun and it seems to me that perseverence in our journey is the most crucial thing. In monastic life it is falling down, getting up and falling down again. Every day is a new beginning, and I've learned the hard way that giving in to self-pity and despair over our sins is not a great way of going on. St Benedict talks about Conversio Morum, the conversion of manners, every day I pray that every day I will be converted to Christ again and again. Sometimes I think that allowing ourselves to give in to despair/self-pity over our sinfulness is itself a sin. I don't know about this one, as I battle with this.

Please excuse an Anglican joining in this discussion but I've been reading the discussion boards on Monachos for a while and find them helpful and interesting. It's my first post on anything!

[Gregory Erickson]

From Lamentations 3:

Remember my affliction and my bitterness, the wormwood and the gall! My soul continually thinks of it and is bowed down within me. But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope: The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases, His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is Thy faithfulness. "The LORD is my portion," says my soul, "therefore I will hope in Him." The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul that seeks Him. It is good that one should wait quietly for the salvation of the LORD. It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. Let him sit alone in silence when He has laid it on him; let him put his mouth in the dust-- there may yet be hope; let him give his cheek to the smiter, and be filled with insults. For the Lord will not cast off for ever, but though He cause grief, He will have compassion according to the abundance of His steadfast love; for He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Sr Helen,

Wonderful to hear from you! I am sure that you will be more than welcome here whether to participate in the discussion or just read. I know I learn a lot from what others post.

You wrote, "St Benedict talks about Conversio Morum, the conversion of manners." Could you explain a little more about what this means? Excuse my ignorance about such a wonderful saint.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Andrea,

My former priest talked with me; and through his influence I read passages from the Philokalia which dealt with anger. One of these pearls said to the effect that, overcoming anger went a long way to victory over the passions, as anger was a root cause of many of them. Am I "there yet", NO. For I often wonder why it is that an inmate's words I can ignore, but my teenage daughter can say on thing and my "dander" is up in a flash. All those years I just thought that I just wanted to get where I was going, without interruptions, was just a mark of being judicious about time. Imagine my shame when it hit me that my impatience is actually sin.

A spiritual father is a tremendous help, someone to talk with, or even an understanding Christian forum; yet, as Owen and Sister Helen wrote, often none of this is possible, and we just have to persevere in our journey. There is no other way, for we each must decide how to "...work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

We cherish more the victories, for which we have fought the hardest.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Sr Helen Stout]

Dear Fr Raphael

Thanks for your welcome, it's good to be included.

About St Benedict, I'm guessing but I assume that you know who he is; born near Naples in approx 480, encountered monasticism in Egypt and Palestine, became a hermit at Subiaco. He was joined by others and eventually moved to Monte Cassino. He was influenced by John Cassian and St Basil. Benedict developed a cenobitic form of monastic life based on the model that St Basil had developed in Cappadocia. He died in approx 550. His rule is based on something known as The Rule of the Master. Eventually Benedictine monasticism became the basis for monastic life in the West, it was the only form of monsticism in the West until the Cistercian reform of the 12C. He is generally regarded as the Father of Western monasticism, and I think regarded as a saint by the Orthodox church. Sorry if you already knew this!

About Conversio Morum, actually it should be conversatio morum I think, I was tired last night. Benedict talks about brethren making vows of stability (stabilitas) conversion of life/fidelity to the monastic life (conversatio morum suorum) and obedientia (obedience) I hope that I've got the Latin right. It's in chapter 58 of the Rule of St Benedict. There are lots of translations around. The one I've used is edited by Timothy Fry OSB and published by The Litugical Press in 1982. There's a large tome (RB and commentary) and a short pamphlet (RB only). There seems to be a lot of discussion of just how to translate conversatio morum in English. Most people seem to agree that it means fidelity to a monastic way of life. However the way I interpret it is that it is not merely the legalistic keeping of a rule, but an inner, daily conversion to the way of Christ; becoming more Christ-like, growing in holiness. I don't know how else to explain it. A conversion of our deepest desires, motives which find outer expression in our actions and the way in which we live out our lives. Benedict has a great thing about perseverence especially in novices. RB 58 the concern must be whether the novice truly seeks God and whether he shows eagerness for the Work of God, for obedience and for trials. The novice should be clearly told all the hardships and difficulties that will lead him to God. Trouble is of course, that it isn't just for novices in monastic life, these difficulties come to everyone who tries to follow Christ. Didn't Jesus talk about taking up the cross and following him.

What a lot!
Helen

[Andrea]

Dear James,

I have a copy of the Philokalia edited in part by Bishop Ware. It says it's volume 4 so I don't know if it has the passages your priest directed you to. Could you share which passages they were?
I think we do take our kids' actions more personally than other people's. Today I wrote about this in my blog which I just added to my profile, if anyone wants to comment on a more specific level. Understanding the underlying nature of our passions is one thing, and actually fighting them is another. I gather that we need to do both. I think we need a community to help us understand, and to give us tools to fight. But ultimately we have to personally decide to do it.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I read over Chap 58 of the Rule of St Benedict. The version I read had "conversion of morals" which is a bit more vague than "conversion to a monastic way of life." It could very well be that the latter is a better sense of what St. Benedict is getting at. In the East the Greek word 'politeia' was also used in the sense of ascetic-monastic "way of life" I think. In any case reading the Rule one certainly gets the same flavour as in the Orthodox East at the same time.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Andrea,

I do not personally own any volumes of the Philokalia. I only have passages which I copied longhand, and unfortunately, those are from volumes you do not possess.
Volume 1: pg.59, #24,26,27, a long passage on pg.82 which says Our fourth struggle is against the demon of anger. WE must, with God's help, eradicate his deadly poison from the depths of our souls. So long as he dwells in our hearts and blinds the eyes of the heart with his sombre disorders, we can neither discriminate what is for our good, nor acheive spiritual knowledge, nor fulfill our good intentions, nor participate in true life; and our intellect will remain impervious to the contemplation of the true, divine light; for it is written, "For my eye is troubled because of anger"(Ps.6:7.LXX)

If, therefore, you desire to attain perfection and rightly to persue the spiritual way, you should make yourself a stranger to all sinful anger and wrath. Listen to what St. Paul enjoins: "Rid yourself of all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, evil speaking and all malice" (Eph.4:31). In saying "all" he leaves no excuse for regarding any anger as necessary or reasonable...Self reform and peace are not acheived through the patience which others show us, but through our own long-duffering towards our neighbor. When we try to escape the struggle for long-suffering by retreating into solitude, those unhealed passions we carry there with us are merely hidden, not erased, for unless our passions are first purged, solitude and withdrawal from the world not only foster them but also keep them concealed, no longer allowing us to perceive what passion it is that enslaves us...If then we wish to receive the Lord's blessing we should restrain not only the outward expression of anger, but also angry thoughts. More beneficial than controlling our tongues in a moment of anger and refraining from angry words is purifying our heart from rancor and not harbouring malicious thoughts against our brethren. The Gospel teaches us to cut off the roots of our sins and not merely their fruits....The final cure for this sickness is to realize that we must not become angry for any reason whatsoever, whether just or unjust. When the demon of anger has darkened our mind, we are left with neither the light of discrimination, nor the assurance of true judgement, nor the guidance of righteousness, and our soul cannot become the temple of the Holy spirit. Finally we should always bear in mind our ignorance of the time of our death, keeping ourselves from anger and recognizing that neither self-restraint nor the renunciation of all material things, nor fasting and vigils, are of any benefit if we are found guilty at the last judgement because we are slaves of anger and hatred.

I omitted ...several paragraphs from this rather long passage, (the collection of which I see that I myself must re-read) Besides what you may find in the four volumes of the Philokalia (check the indexes), it may be profitable to you to read St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters on Love.

Sorry for such a long post Matthew.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Andrea]

Dear James,


"So long as he (anger)dwells in our hearts and blinds the eyes of the heart with his sombre disorders, we can neither discriminate what is for our good, nor acheive spiritual knowledge, nor fulfill our good intentions, nor participate in true life; and our intellect will remain impervious to the contemplation of the true, divine light"

If that's not motivation to change, I don't know what is. Thank you so much for copying that passage for me. I hope others will also benefit, and that your efforts will not be just for me. Though, if I can conquer this thing, six kids and my husband will owe you generous people a debt of gratitude for your thoughtfulness.

I'm going to go look up anger in my Philokalia index right now. Discovering the vast resources in Orthodox literature is like finding an unexpected, yet unfathomable treasure. Any guiding references are most welcome.

[Marie Quirk]

Dear All,


"Sometimes I think that allowing ourselves to give in to despair/self-pity over our sinfulness is itself a sin"

This relates very much to a question I have pondered quite a bit as I reread "The Art of Prayer". How does one follow the advice of the desert fathers to use self-reproach, to always blame oneself and to consider oneself as worthless and good for nothing if one suffers with the disease of depression? If one struggles with depression already then to cultivate these sentiments could lead to despair as one is already prone to self-deprication, low self-esteem and darkness. As Chariton quotes Theophane the Recluse, "Progress in the spiritual life is shown by an ever increasing realization of our own worthlessness, in the full and literal sense of the word. The moment that we ascribe some value to ourselves, in any sense whatever, it will mean that things have gone wrong." How does one reach this point and yet not fall into despair when one sees the ugliness of the muck within? How does one live this in between.....facing, admitting and realizing one's worthlessness and yet having hope and joy in the power of God's transforming grace?

At the same time I have seen when this weakness and sickness of depression haunts the soul for then it is ever more obligated to depend on the love and mercy of God by unceasingly calling out to Him for if it did not it would simply give up and fall into despair. So it seems that this sickness is a means to lead one to continual prayer for he knows that every breath he takes, every action, every thought must be lived in dependence on Him for the sickness overpowers Him and then truly he can say, "Without you I can do nothing."

I do not know if any of this makes sense. I have had difficulty putting all of this into words but I hope it is clear enough so that someone is able to respond.

In Christ,
Marie

[Andrea]

Dear Marie,

I look forward to wiser responses to your post from the others, but I have thought a lot about this. I come from a "Reformed/Calvinist" way of teaching, which I could not totally accept regarding "total depravity" where they do teach that we are disgusting heaps of dung, pardon my language. I actually haven't read of the Fathers saying we are worthless. We are created in God's image, but our likeness to Him fell when Eve and Adam sinned. Our struggle towards salvation is to regain His likeness. Our deeds apart from Him are unprofitable and without merit. And we are totally dependent on His mercy and grace. So I think you're "At the same time" paragraph is right on.

I think the Orthodox view is that we are sick, infected by sin. But not worthless. We come to Him for healing of our condition.

[Arsenios]

Marie writes:


"How does one live this in between.....facing, admitting and realizing one's worthlessness and yet having hope and joy in the power of God's transforming grace?"

Narrow is the way... The path between self-esteem and despondence, with neither of either, is indeed impossible for men, yet all things are possible with God.

The conversion of anger to love is within the scope of Christian discipleship, however. For it is fairly straight forewardly attained if one perseveres in intercessory prayer for the person one is angry with, of such a kind that if you regard the salvation of that person's soul as the pre-requisite of your own salvation, and your fervency and tears and love for the offender are offered in this 'light'... Then in such forgiveness and in such prayer, one will come to humility and love...

Or at least one has a chance!

And it has worked on more than one occassion for me... The doing of love helps create the reality of it within one's own soul... Just as the doing of hate creates the opposite...

Arsenios

[Eugene]

Dear Marie,

I think your post contains the right answer to your question: "Without You I can do nothing." The only thing I can tell about depression from my experience - consider it simply as a desease - just like toothache or migrane, and treat it in the Orthodox way - don't let the desease to worry you or control you, but take it as a cross and bear it, denying yourself with your fears and worries. Don't listen to the desease and to the demons speaking through it, but put all your hope in Christ. Everyone of us has his/her own cross, and depression is not the easy one, but without the cross we can not be saved because we can not learn self-denying love of Christ without bearing the cross. One holy father said: "The joy of a Christian is a joy of bearing the cross"

I agree with what Andrea said.
In Crist

[Marie Quirk]

Dear everyone,

Thank you so much for your quick responses and your encouragement in the battle.

"Narrow is the way... The path between self-esteem and despondence, with neither of either, is indeed impossible for men, yet all things are possible with God" This brings to mind a quote from Theophan the Recluse that hit the nail on the head, so to speak. "Self-importance is as wily as the devil and cleverly conceals itself behind humble words, settling itself firmly in the heart so that we swing between self-deprication and self-praise." To me it is all about having a "right" view of oneself in relation to God. Or rather receiving God's gaze upon myself so that I am put in my proper place...not too far up and not too far down....truly knowing and being convinced of who I am before God. Because in faith I know I am the creature in need of my Creator and dependent on Him yet I am not convinced of this because my pride steps in and my ego wants to be fed and thus I live independently of HIm and of a life in the Spirit. I don't know if my rambling makes sense.....

Thanks again for your attentive listening.

In Christ,
Marie

[Andrea]

Dear George,

That's great advice suggesting that we pray for the one we're angry with. I think constructive methods like that help replace the negative attribute that one is trying to fight. It's like the negative (anger) is a liquid that can be displaced by a denser solid (loving prayer for their salvation above my desire for my own).

[Owen Jones]

One must recognize and experience joy in victory in small things. We should take God's commandments seriously but not take ourselves too seriously.

[Scott Pierson]

f so then this would mean that God has created some to be homosexual and probably others lesbian. This could not be.


Father Bless

If one was born gay (with an inborn predisposition to gay attraction) would it necessarily imply that God created them gay? I have no idea if their is any truth to the "I was born gay argument"... But i could see were certain predispositions could come from chemical imbalances, etc . Couldnt homosexuality just be like any other psychological disorder out there (some of them are genetic some of them are due to environment, upbringing, willfully following a life of sin and thereby "warping your brain" so to speak, demon possesion etc etc) ? If one was born gay I would be inclined to blame that on the inheritance of fallen nature and not God making someone gay. I can see your point though. When if comes to psychological disorders I think it can be really hard to pinpoint all of the causes.

[Owen Jones]

Traditionally, Orthodoxy has no such terminology as "homosexual" or "gay." It only has a term for the act: sodomy. The action is condemned as a sin, with the presumption that whatever a person's prediliction, with prayer and ascetic discpline, one is not compelled to take a sinful action. This is true with any sinful act (or thought). Presumably someone raised in a very difficult environment with have a prediliction to violence. It does not excuse violent acts. Our faith presumes not only the possiblity but the necessity of a complete turning around of one's thoughts and actions, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.

[Scott Pierson]

Traditionally, Orthodoxy has no such terminology as "homosexual" or "gay." It only has a term for the act: sodomy. The action is condemned as a sin, with the presumption that whatever a person's prediliction, with prayer and ascetic discpline, one is not compelled to take a sinful action. This is true with any sinful act (or thought). Presumably someone raised in a very difficult environment with have a prediliction to violence. It does not excuse violent acts. Our faith presumes not only the possiblity but the necessity of a complete turning around of one's thoughts and actions, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.

I agree, thats an important thing to remember..

[Olga]

Along with sodomy, it is also not the case that "women lying with women" is also condemned in scripture? (memory's a bit rusty re chapter and verse)

[Fr. Gregory (Hallam)]

In all things in my thoughts I will consider myself the first amongst sinners. In my inner life there is no sin of which I am not capable. In my "doing" I am called to live victoriously by the power of Christ in in the spirit of poverty, chastity and obedience. For those in the world this translates to a simple, God-dependent lifestyle, monogamous heterosexual faithfulness or sexual continence for the single and the faithful following of Jesus Christ and adherence to his Church in all things pertaining to Godliness. The battle for this kind of sobriety is interior BUT it is erroneous to suppose that:-

(1) Sinful inclinations and thoughts are all under our direct control.

They are not, at least in their entirety. The fathers talked about unbidden logismoi arising in the mind. It is what we do them that matters. In themselves they do not make us sinful, (or else our Lord himself would have been condemned by some here on account of his desert temptations).

(2) Sinful inclinations have nothing to do with genetics.

I am not going along with Augustinian traducianism with respect to "original sin" because I am not imputing Adam's actual sin and guilt to anyone but rather am I saying that our psychosomatic identites are loaded with our genetic inheritance AND both "in utero" and subsequent environmental influences. These are the unseen raw materials of our ascetic struggles. God made us by inbreathing the dust of Eden. The dust of Eden is not, in this fallen world, pure gold.

(3) Certain persons cannot be Orthodox Christians (or more commonly) clergy and monastics if they consistently experience homosexual desires and thoughts.

Show me a canon that exercises this degree of control and exclusion and I will back down but this is just not Orthodox at all. Comparing sins and ranking them for penitential purposes is a Latin obsession. The problem now with the Roman Church is that after centuries of casuistry, asceticism has now largely been abandoned, so mandatory celibacy without even communal support is a disaster waiting to happen, (and indeed has happened).

Orthodoxy has a "safer" and more God pleasing approach to the multiplication of sin and the creation of sinful subcultures precisely because it holds lifelong repentance, ascetic continence, extreme humility and mutual accountability in such high regard. If some here (I hope none) are wanting to purge continent, chaste and celibate homosexuals from the body of Christ or from the ministry of Christ then they are not in the truth.