Monk laicisation

[Tom B]

Hi,
just wandering if there are any thoughts and knowledge around the laicisation of monks. under what circumstances is it permitted? what are the effects of on the person whom leaves the monastery to re-enter the world? the reason i ask is that i have a freind whom tried out monasticism, and remained a novice whilst there. he decided to leave and on his return he is hardly the same. he is very depressed and not even a shadow of his former self, even though he left with his abbott's blessing. is he being punished for rejecting his calling? apparently there have been monks that even whilst having a schema, they left their monasteries and got ordinary jobs in the world. i heard of a priest-monk whom left and got married after being a monk for well over a decade. would love to hear your feedback

[Klod]

He is certainly not being punished by God. God is love, and all it takes to start to understand this, is to believe in Him, whereas to fully understand His Love, it takes only to become a Saint.

In most of the cases, it is pride which distresses people, pride for failing from what one expects from one's self, disappointment; pride for not finding what one wanted to find.

Unfortunately, I have seen couple of occasions when people went back from their monastic devotion, either as novices or as monks.

The second has to be distinguisht from the first. Formally, in the first, there is nothing wrong with going back to world. That is not the case with the second.

However, I do believe, in the essence of bothe cases, there should be love and the good of the sould on which 'punishment' should be based on.

A monk who goes back to world is not an Apostate.

However, as I said, will such people have such a humility to accept their failure when they face the world, and with penance make up their way again? Difficult to say.

[Moses Anthony]

Could it be possible that the way to understand the laicization of a monk, would be to look at it's equivalent in the more traditional clerical ranks?
The one thought which most immediately comes to mind, is that a cleric is laicized, and or excommunicated, for the promulgation of heresy. The other thought is possibly in two parts: part a) The cleric has been found to be engaging in, and unrepentant of a particular sin; and part b), The cleric's superiors have given clear guidance to an individual, which guidance has summarily been ignored. If, in point of fact, the Bishop,etc., stands in the place of Christ here on earth, then to so dismiss a clearly given command can be seen to be tantamount to sin. In which case refer back to (a).

an unworthy servant

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

I would like to add to Klod's perceptive answer: it is very important to keep in mind and heart the PERSONAL nature of Orthodoxy, which is quite different from pre-Vatican II policy. The relationship between the Spiritual Father and son/daughter here is paramount. A deep and honest relationship with the Spiritual Father can lead to God's Word being spoken. God is Love. I personally know Great Schema monks who have been allowed to return to life in the world. Each case must be taken in the light of the hypostatic dynamic in the Holy Trinity and thus in our Church. It is natural that one can feel a certain depression upon leaving the monastery, but consider the precious souls of those who have married only to see circumstances change. Here, we must not judge by human ways, our God is Hypostasis.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Forgive me, but I must take issue with Mr. Anthony's post. Seeing the matter from Tom B.'s perspective I feel and I hope correctly, that he is concerned for a friend who has left his noviciate with the blessing. This friend is experiencing a form of depression, which is entirely to be expected in such a circumstance, which is why I made allusion to married people who divorce in my post. They suffer for years, and especially when children are involved it can be a wound which takes much time to heal. My long experience of the monastic world, both convents and monasteries, has shown to me over and over again that monastics are very loving, forgiving, and patient with their brother or sister's human fraility. This includes mental disorders, and various passions. It is extremely rare for a monastic to be sent away from his/her monastery. I would avoid any comparison with clerical ranks. For one thing, in our Church we have both monastic and married priests. The monastery can be seen as a spiritual hospital. No one goes there perfect, and depending on the grace of the Holy Spirit, it takes time and spiritual struggle before the monk or nun sees the monastery as paradise. As for the promulgation of heresy, this in monastic life is seen under the light of a temptation, yet certainly if the monastic continues to preach heresy it is in their best interests to find another abode. As for unrepentant sin, who is to cast the first stone? This is a major temptation for a monastic. To judge one's brother or sister is a major fall. We do not enter the monastery to scrutinize our brothers and sisters, rather we go to lament over our own sin. Again, I would like to point out the hypostatic nature of our Orthodox life. Each monk and nun is treated as an hypostasis (person) not as an individual. In each personal case there are so many variables that it takes the discernment, granted by the Holy Spirit, for the Spiritual Father to utter a word which proceeds from God. We are not a legalistic church, here on earth we are all broken and in need of healing, this can take weeks, even years. This is the great blessing of Orthodoxy - that everyone is accepted, that Christ makes all things new.

[Vasilis Kirikos]

I am sending a Thanksgiving Day message (song) to all:

http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/view.pd?i=382219626&m=1652&rr=y&source

I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. God bless all and Happy Thanksgiving!! Vasilis

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear James, Seraphim, Tom and others,

Following on the above, it also seems pertinent to note that there is a distinct difference between the means of approach and entry into monasticism with respect to the clergy. Chielfy the priest is one called -- by God, by the Church, by the people -- to serve the God in the Church. It is a charge, a kind of 'obedience' (diakonema), laid upon the person; symbolised in the fact that at ordination the individual is taken by the shoulders and brought to the altar, and it is not the person but the people who assess willingness ('Axios! Axios! Axios!'). In the case of the monk or the nun, the situation is rather more like marriage: one seeks out the avenue for growth and development, for the struggle against sin and the advance in Christ. The call to the clergy is often deeply public, for the monastic interior and private. The novice approaches the alter of his own free will. He or she must hand the sheers for the tonsure to the abbot three times. It is he or she who makes the responses.

I raise this in the current context only because this difference needs to be borne in mind when considering those who depart from a monastic situation, as was Tom's question. It is a different kind of departure from that of the clergy, and must be treat differently.

INXC, Matthew

[Tom B]

Hi,

great to get so much feedback. i guess what really upset and confused my freind is that whilst in the monastery he had such conflicting and different types of opinions thrown at him. Many monks apparently did not express any opinion on his progress. others constantly told him that now that he had begun this journey there would be no turning back. even without pledging an oath at the alter his life could never be the same and that God's grace would be given at a much lower level if he abandone's this call. (mind you he was a rasophore for the final month of his stay before he left- according to some monks this also made a difference as it pledges a higher form of committment than non-rasophores and hence carries a higher degree of punishment if you leave). some monks even told stories of being given up entirely to passions and the influence of devils without God's grace to assist in the struggle, sometimes resulting in a very ungraceful death. all these conflicting opinions of-course played havoc on the mind of a young novice, not knowing which way to turn. on the one hand there seemed to be dire consequences to abandon, on the other a feeling that it is better to leave before ordination if you are having doubts than after ordination.
i myself have at times considered monastic life, but after witnessing this situation it has scared me well away. our parish priest has a completely different view. he assures that even if he had taken an oath, he would be still able to leave without incuring any form of spiritual penalty because he likened it to a marriage that didn't work out. it ends in divorce.

the only monk that gave him a completely compassionate point of view was the abbott himself whom told him, after much prayer and seeing his struggle, that it would be best if he returned to the world. Furthermore he told him that he would not be held accountable in any way for leaving as he is only a novice, and therefore is not subjected to any spiritual penalty. judging by what i see this doesn't seem to have happened either as the change in my freind is quite noticable and it does seem he has incurred God's wrath. in fact he sais that if he knew that his attempt would have ended like this, he never would have tried out as a novice at all. it all seems a bit muddled up to me, more points of view especially from monks would help...thanks..

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Tom,
I am more than willing to help, but I feel it needs to be done away from the 'post'. Do you have an email address so that we could correspond? I tried to make things clear in my earlier post, but naturally I was speaking in a broad sense. I am not pretending to be a spiritual father, but if you wish I could help your friend by directing him to monastics in his area.

[katya the nurse-aid]

Running clear water throughout my fear…
Song of it pure and endless, so near, so near…
Curiosity is biting, but lazy and dear…
Will moving forward that ice of my fear…
Stream of the pure water, no one can stop,
Ice of its death, moving slowly for that…
It is melting in the fire, energy of its run…
Melt, melt ice of my death by my own dun…
And I pay that debt, inside my own…
Rejecting all calls in the foreign, loving form!
Attractive and dark, promising and dear…
Stay, stay away from the freedom of my deal!
Deal of running clear water, beyond any doubt…
Nothing to wait during run, and I cannot stop…
The stream is alive, during run, during clear…
By robbing stones of everyday fear…
And it’s all over day after day,
my running clear water without delay…
Events of the minute are knocking next stone…
Leaving it there were it is belong…
Ice melting process is never end,
by running forward all the time…to the very end..
Trough out life, when years all passed, it will stop…
One day, when I become dust!

[Klod]

Dear friends

as Seraphim says, I think there is no point for this bord's members to judge such a case. We can speak theoretically, in principe, but not hypostatically, i.e in relation to the specifics of this person or individual.

All one may say, is the canonical prescriptions regarding similar situations.

What is important to understand, since that was the initial question, is that there most likely is no WRATH of God on anyone. This must be understood before one tries to get other reasons.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Once again I must thank Klod for his very correct statement. Of utmost importance in what Klod has to say are these two points: i) there is no WRATH ii)and that we have Canons, pertaining to this situation.

But Orthodox Monasticism and the Canons which form a very essential element of Tradition, are not to be intrepted, for instance, when we go to a medical doctor (who may well be in a hurry, due to the number of patients), that is, Spiritual Fatherhood/Motherhood is not simply a page you turn to to prescribe a medication. It is a relationship built on confidence and consolation.

Nothing, nothing, passes from the heart of the spiritual son/daughter spoken to the Spiritual Father/Mother. Otherwise Grace is lost. In fact Grace is absent.

I am very concerned for the friend of Tom and Tom also, as he has been upset by the 'words' of monks in the monastery.

One does hear all sorts of 'advice' from monastics who speak out of turn, indeed, disobedience. These very words, spoken in monastic disobedience, can lead to a multitude of thoughts (logismi) which unnecessarily trouble the soul. May God forgive those who speak without the Blessing. I have seen many wounds, thus my heartfelt wish to be of assistance to Tom and his friend. I have absolutely no intention to speak as one who knows, but after thirty years in monasticism, one does hear many things, and one does see all manner of things.

Tom, if you have an email address, please contact me. Otherwise, you can reach me at the following address:

[Address removed on public message.]

[Br. Ignatios Agioupaul]

Tom B-

Fr. Paul, one of the best of our monks, who fell asleep pre-maturely, reminded me when I was a novice, "It is good to want to be a monk." I never forgot that remark, because it was so to the point. And it is a blessed thing to become a monk. It would be a great sin if someone should want to be a monk for some sinister reason!

But there is no reason given that your friend had any but the best of intentions. So he was more uncertain in his own heart than he thought at first, and backed away. This is not an evil thing or a sin, not a real disgrace, but a matter of where the faith in oneself is found. This is why there must be a trial period. How can anyone commit themselves to a higher level of faith in others or even to God without having tested the real faith in oneself with which to do this?

I hope he loves the brothers and always feels able to visit the monastery often. The Panaghia keeps a special book for those who leave and return often to the monastery, distinct from those who visit once and then leave, or even from those who stay forever. Maybe in years to come after many visits and good works he will become a monk. This happens often. Even monks who threw off their robes and left to get married, return as old men, repent, and are then given the higher schema. And, of course, perhaps he will be blessed with starting an Orthodox family. There are as many other options open as ever. Every option still requires sufficient faith in oneself, so don't be overly mystified about whose choice is at hand. God knows already how to make a vocation for someone.

As for your friend, Tom, the old jazz lyric says, "That's what you get for makin' whoopee!"

May God bless you and your friend, and grant your tears many years of healthy Christian love to come.

Br. Ignatios Agioupauliti

[Tom B]

hello,

that is interesting brother Ignatios, but no matter what i say there is no consoling my freind now. i gather you are a monk on Mt Athos, where my freind also treid out at. all that he can remember is that one monk told him that if you decide to leave, even as a novice, you are rejecting God's call and there will be life-long punishment for this. maybe not in a direct way like fire and brimstone, but in an indirect way such as the absence of God's grace which might explain his miserable condition now. like i said prior to going to the monastery, although he was serious he was also full of life and a warmth would resonate from his being. now he is hardly recognizable. the focus in his eyes has gone and he hardly leaves his house. i cannot understand how an honourable attempt at doing something so sacred has left him completely damaged psychologically and spiritually. i'm sure if many other potential novices knew of his experience that it would act as a major deterant.

[Father David Moser]

Tom,

I have known many many men who "tried their vocation" as monastics and left after a period of time in a monastery and there is no ill effect on any of them. Simply being at a monastery can have a profound spiritual effect on even a visitor (last time I was at Holy Trinity in Jordanville, the priest who heard my confession told me that such things as an intense spiritual awareness and vivid dreams of a spiritual nature are not uncommon and should be generally ignored.) Based on my experience with those who have lived a monastic life and then returned to the world, your friend's difficulties are more likely something that comes from himself rather than from the monastery. It is possible that at the monastery the spiritual atmosphere and increased clarity of spiritual experience may have brought these previously hidden traits out in him, but they were not imposed from the outside at the monastery. Some of the warmest, funnest, most full of life people I know are monks.

From my experience all I can say is that the vast majority of people who go to a monastery to try their monastic vocation and then leave to return to the world are not in any way affected detrimentally.

Fr David

[katya the nurse-aid]

Far away Land, closer then i think…
Step outside own fear and rethink…
Or simply do not use your brain at all..
It is not what moves you, to were you belong!
Heart, heart, only, were senses are clean…
Pure and childish, and this is not your dream…
Were steps are so easy, and body do not exist!
Easy, so easy you can taste that feast!
Love as a cover, as a shroud for the worldly death!
Cover me, cover, take away from that bet!
Love is a fire is burned me to dust,
cover me cover, let my soul fly so easy and fast!
And in the air of existence, eternal and free..
Let me reach that Land of the Wisdom,
Were is no more you or me…
Were I’m outside and closer than I think…
I reached that Land of His existence and no more rethink!

[Tom B]

there seems to be some differing school's of thought as to what constitutes a novice. i have read from some sources that a rasophore novice is considered a monk even though he has not given any vowes, and hence is still subject to censure if he leaves the monastery. other sources yet again state that a novice remains a novice even if he is a rasophor with a skoufo(cap), which means he can leave without incurring excommunication or a spiritual penalty. i guess it mind depend on the typikon of the particular monastery. in my freind's case the abbott assured him that whilst being a rasophore(he only agreed to becoming a rasophore at the incessant prompting of the abbott), he was not considered a monk and was still able to leave at any moment if he chose to. its all a bit messy and confusing to a lay person.

[Elisabeth]

> Dear Tom, >=20 > In reply to your question about a rasophore monastic...I expect the detai= ls of > the understanding may well differ from place to place, but as a rasophore= nun > , my own understanding given to me by my Spiritual Father and my Bishop i= s > that my tonsure and clothing to =8Ccarry=B9 the =8Craso=B9 should be taken as a > serious commitment which includes my feeble attempts to follow the monast= ic > vows. However, I have not taken any life vows, and if after careful > discernment by my Bishop, Spiritual Father and myself it seems that God=B9s= Will > is that I should no longer follow the monastic path, and if I had the > blessing of my Bishop and Spiritual Father I would not incur any penalty = if I > left my monastic profession. Perhaps I should add that my obedience is to= my > Bishop and Spiritual Father rather than to an Abbott or Abbess. Please em= ail > me privately if you think I can help further. > My love in Christ, > Sr. Elisabeth =20 >=20

[Tom B]

Hi Elizabeth,

i didn't find your email address on your profile information. i really would like to discuss this further with you in private. my email is: tom_baloe@yahoo.com
i really would like to hear from you so we can expand on this issue..

Tom B

[Marie-Duquette]

Tom,

Peace of Christ be with you!

As I read your message about not seeing Elizabeth's e-mail on her message. If you go down to the end of her PROFILE after clicking on her NAME, you will be able to contact her through the MONACHOS web site that provides for this personal e-mailing of the Community Members without having their spelled-out e-mail address.

marie_duquette

[Tom B]

this whole issue of trying your monastic vocation has caused a great stir in our parish following my freinds and others experiences. the monks at Mt Athos are now being accused of proselytizing and brain washing by many parishoners and clergy. its sad that the holy mountain would begin to gain such a reputation. but there are many cases whereby pilgrims went only to visit and never came back to the world after fierce coercion by monks and abbott's. it is a very disturbing phenomenon which probably needs to be looked into by some church governing body.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

My personal experience of the Holy Mountain began with my first pilgrimage there in 1973. Later due to severe health problems I found myself again on the Holy Mountain living at Stavronikita. Over the years I have visited and kept close contacts. Personally I have never witnessed 'coercion' or 'brain-washing.' This would be an attitude in direct contradiction to the Athonite, indeed Orthodox, perspective, of absolute respect for each person, as the hypostatic principle for each person is the real issue here.

As for a church governing body the Holy Mountain is under the Ecumenical Patriarch. Any concerns should be directed to him. He speaks and writes English, and is a loving Pastor of the Church.

[Tom B]

To further complicate the problem, my freind revealed to me that the reason he even left the world, apart from the fact that he felt in his heart that indeed God is calling him to the monastic vocation, he never would have attempted it without the encouragement of the Abbott. on his first visit to the monastery, which he had absoloutely no intention of staying, the abbott told him that God had brought him there and that indeed what he felt in his heart was correct, that he was born to be a monk and that it was his true calling. what is peculiar is that after a long struggle, the abbott changed his view and told him it would be best to return to the world and get married. what confuses me is how can the abbott speak with such conviction as to what is one's true calling, and then months down the track come up with a completely different deduction? is this because he has received some sort of message from God that the path of the spiritual son is now to be altered? or is it that the initial opinion he gave is indeed the desired path, but due to the failed attempt of the individual the second path is offered up as divine economy: that is God's acceptance of the individual's failure to live out the desired path and therefore offering a secondary path in order to still be saved. the monks say that there are three paths. a) this is the desired path, what they call in Greek the "kat'evdokia" path which God desires and see's as the most fitting for the individual in accordance with his/her hypostasis. b) this is the "kat'ekonomia" path which is God's offering of an alternative path in which salvation can still be achieved. c) this path of course is the worst of the lot, is called abandonment, whereby the individual has no longer any chance of salvation, and he is completely abandoned by God's grace and providence...

[Lizabeth Davis]

Couldn't a big part of the problem here be the expectation that somehow=20 the abbot is infallible? I know when I first went to my spiritual father, I= =20 had these type of expectations. But through some very difficult trials, I h= ave=20 learned that he is indeed a fallible human being. Yet I also have begun to=20 appreciate the grace that still exists in the relationship. My initial=20 expectations of him were unhealthy and that caused me a lot of temptation w= ith=20 depression when my expectations were not met. I have since learned that I n= eed to=20 put my hope in God verses my spiritual father's word alone. Sometimes we ha= ve=20 to undergo difficult trials. And maybe if something different was said, we=20= =20 wouldn't have had to undergo them. Yet everything in our life happens for a=20= =20 reason. The trials I went through with my spiritual father ultimately was g= ood,=20 though I didn't realize it at the time. They helped to purify my whole =20 understanding of the relationship and actually strengthened my faith in Chri= st and=20 the workings of His Church. It is now my understanding that in=20 Orthodoxy, no individual is infallible, even a great elder. Yet through fai= th,=20 God's will can be revealed and done, and in spite of our many stumbles,=20 everything can ultimately work out for good and for our salvation.