Call to celibacy

[James, guest for now]

I was chrismated a year ago on the Sunday of St. Gregory Palamas and have felt that was the best decision of my life, glory be to God. Before I ever knew about Orthodoxy, I read Kathleen Norris's book The Cloister Walk and was moved by her words on the unencumbered intimacy that celibacy allows. While studying at a Protestant bible college, I heard that Orthodoxy had monks and this was probably my first attraction to the church, my second being compilations of the sayings of the Desert Fathers.

I don't mean to think to myself that I am special and should tell everyone my life story, but I am confused. Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I'm in a relationship which could become a marriage and the biggest stumbling block for me is deciding which way of life God wants for me. I've thought about becoming a monk for many years but fall easily into the pattern of liking a girl and starting a closer relationship with her, moving towards an exclusive relationship. Something in me says, though, that's there's no one person that I want, I want intimacy with everyone.

I read Matthew Steenberg's beautiful article on celibacy, and I certainly like and want all things God gives to someone with this gift. I feel as though I would and could make this commitment of my life, but it's not clear whether this has been given to me. How can I know?

I feel confused because I can convince myself either way. I tell myself that many people consider marriage a given, so that even just wanting to be celibate points to a gift from God. But then I know in myself that I fall very easily to sexual temptation, with little resistance on my part, in ways which are shameful to mention. If I'm weak this way, then isn't it clear that I don't have this gift? But then I flatter myself and think maybe I do because I am tempted as much as possible to not be celibate.

I'm sorry, I feel like I'm getting nowhere fast. I'm not convinced that a call to celibacy is shown in either lack of sexual desire or ability to control it, because so many lives have been characterized by this battle in a monastic setting. Maybe I'm asking for the impossible, because I want to think about a question whose answer sharply divides whether I should be married or not. (Another sign of my sinfulness that I want this sort of instant gratification.)

I have talked with my priest and he thinks I should spend time talking with a monk or at a monastery to get a better feeling for what actually goes on there. There is a hermit who used to live on the Holy Mountain who lives near us, and I want to spend some time there when I can. I sort of think this is something I have to find my own way in, though I wish somewhere here could make my discerning less muddled than it is.

I'm almost at the point of deleting everything I just wrote because I feel so unclear in my expression that it all might just be pointless. I have read over many of the discussions about others wondering about becoming monastics, and have thought about many of the things said there. Please pray for me in my unworthiness. Thank you all and may you all have a blessed Holy Week.

[John Wilson]

You might simply have to become a novice in a monastery and see for yourself if the monastic life is right for you. Most importantly you will be in close contact with the abbot who will be your spiritual father, and after some time as a novice he may discern that you are not monk material, or he may give you his blessing to become a monk.

Hopefully others will give you advice as well, as I don't think I am qualified to give you advice myself. You should particularly ask Father Averky who is a monk on this forum, although he may not be visiting the forums during Holy Week so you will have to be patient.

John.

[Monk Ivan]

Christ is Risen!

Dearest James:

Know that you will be in our prayers as you search out God's will for you. It isnot easy but the end is joyful.. Do not become discouraged because of confusion in yOUR HEART! Know that you will be in our hUMBLE PRAYERS!
Hegumen Jon

[Fr Averky]

Dear Johm

Thank you for your kind and sympathetic reply to our visitor, James - one can always count on you for an appropriate answer.

Dear James,

As John has pointed out, I am a monk, (not a very good one), and this is Holy Week, and there are several hours of services a day, each with its own spiritual beauty. There is that particular sense of anticipated joy-after-sorrow which causes spiritual tension during Holy Week. I will be on line little if at all, and I will be gone from the monastery from May 1 to May 14. If you wish to contact me personally, I believe you can do so by clicking on my name in blue in the left hand column and following the instructions. I promise that I will make at least intial contact with you, and we can continue upon my return. This is a multi-faceted question, and there are many considerations to be made. You sound like a young man, so for the moment, look at it this way: In the Faith you are an infant, only a year old. I have known of very few infants who have been ready to enter a monastery Also, Fr. Seraphim Rose once told me that if I wanted to get a sense of my maturity, I needed to take my age at that time (I was 30) and divide it by 3. (This is generally applies to all of us, by the way) I was just getting ready to come to my monastery at the time, so here I was, 10 years old, making such an importan decision! As I look back - he was so right! However, all is in God's hands -be patient, pray, and prepare for Pascha - that is enough for you right now..

God Bless you.

Hieromonk Averky

[Kit Davies]

Dear James

(By the way I am not Orthodox...)

I was very interested in your posting and have much sympathy.

I think to trial the monastic life would be a good idea, because if you have found someone special then she will be considerate of that because she will have been drawn to you by the very things that make you want to go a monastery and will like you the more for it. Perhaps...she will admire your integrity.Then whichever way you go, you will be making a sound choice. If you see what I mean.

My wife married me for my monastic qualities (these are superficial exterior appearance manner and personality ones I should stress, not anything to do with virtue). In England it amounts to not liking football really.

It has been a most happy union. But apart from child creation, I live in celibacy. that is her wish due to reasons I won't elaborate here, it would be improper in such a forum.That is one reason she was drawn to me. (She is a pretty religious RC)
I have the most powerful growingt pull to be a Monk in my heart over the last 10 years or so, and yet I find myself in this Different Landscape, with a wife and children I adore at the same time.

I think the above might indicate what I am trying to say, that God will do with us what he wants. And can turn any situation to the Godly.

Perhaps I mean that to be a monk might not be to become Holy just like that. And to be married does not rule out Holiness.

What was missing from your initial letter was..and I thought it might be useful to mention it...how important is it to you to have children?#
You talk about sexual drive, but the proper end of that is the next generation.

I miss the monastic life I might have had, and I get a lot of aggravation in my employment for being 'too soft'...But perhaps you should put into your meditations the thought of a little boy running to you with a smile and saying 'Daddy!'
Or little girl.

Though of course priests and monks have children of different sorts...and equally rewarding I dare say (many more of them...)

Anyway I hope things turn out OK for you

[Andonis]

hello all,

the discovering of the celibate life has been amazing for myself. prior to discovering Orthodoxy the way i understand it now, celibacy to me too seemed something you embraced, when you had no choice ie, you stranded on a deserted island...ever since trying this life, i can't express how rewarding i have found it. the urge to transgress does at times become over whelming, but if contained soon subsides. many of the fathers give testimony to new found creative energies that you can find in yourself if you embrace celibacy. this has been my experience. my conscience is not nearly as burdened, i sleep better, i have clarity of mind, i'm more productive. i never would have beleived that all this could be derived simply from refraining from sex out of wedlock. once again God has warmed my soul with the beauty of his truth.

i know approach every day as a new seperate battle. i pray daily to God that he continues to give me the strength to maintain my celibacy, and to continue to be washed with the spiritual gifts that that are born and cultivated out of this way of life. i know feel that i can discern my calling in life with a lot more clarity whether it be married life or celibacy. praise the Lord for his mercy and infinite wisdom.

yours respectfully
Andonis

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Christ is Risen!
Andonis,

There are so many reasons for people to celebant, not only medical or freedom of choice. Of course the age of the person, this has a lot to do with it and how difficult it may be. But above all is the personal motive for such a life. Some are called to this way of life, not only Monks and Nuns, but lay people as well. You have saintly people who are married, they are blessed by children. If you want to give yourself totally to God, and be open to the Holy Spirit, Celebacy is the way to go, but it is a difficult road, full of pot holes. Remember "it is not good for man to live alone."

Br Paul

[Andonis]

In thruth he is Risen Br Paul Zimmerman,

i do appreciate what you are saying, yes i know celibacy is a calling. at this stage, although i have been celibate for a period, i don't know for sure that this is the path God wants me to take throughout my life. what i do know for sure, is that now if i wish not to be celibant i will choose marriage, and not maintain sexual relationships outside of marriage. this for me has made an extreme difference in the quality of my life, both in terms of physical and spiritual well being.
Andonis

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Christ is Risen!
Andonis,

You are happy in what you have chosen in your life for the present, being celibant. May God Bless you in this.

Br Paul

[Fr Averky]

Dear Adonis,

I agree very much with what you are saying, and again, am happy to see how well
you are moving along. However, celibacy as viewed by the Orthodox Church is not
a "calling," just as the desire to become a monk or to be a priest is a
"calling." In the Roman Catholic Church, these "callings," are termed
"Vocations," as in, " I feel I have a vocation to be a priest, or I have a
"vocation" to be a monk. In Orthodoxy, we are all called to purity, be we monk
or priest or layman. You are most correct when you say that if you choose to be
married that you will "not maintain sexual relationships outside of marriage, "
this is a gven -for of course not to do so would be adultery, breaking one of
the Ten Commandments, causing the Holy Spirit to withdraw from your marriage.
As such then, there is purity in marriage as there is for the monk and the lay
person living in the world. To remain pure is not simply a matter of sleeping
better, or feeling better about yourself, it is a matter of maintaining that
which Christ and His Holy Church requires, not something "special." Of course,
the fact that you are remaining pure as opposed to being "celibate" is going to
have all kinds of spiritual benefits for you. St. Paul tells a young man that if
he cannot remain pure, then he should be married. The Orthodox church
glorifies, virginity - for as bishop Nikolaij Velimirovic very well puts it,
"Christ, who was a virgin, gave His Mother, who was a Virgin, over to the care
of St. John the Theologian, who was also a Virgin." This comes from a very
wonderful reflection from the "Prologue," and I will find it for you. Virginity
and purity are the highest state, but it is not just a matter of celibacy, but
living according to God's law.

Hieromonk Averky

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

As usual, well said Father.
Br Paul

[Andonis]

thanks again father,

i still am a little confused at the difference you are trying to highlight in relation to remaining pure as opposed to being celibate. i would appreciate you ellaborating.

i know at present that abstaining from sexual relations has helped me immensely spiritually. although i have periods of desire, i am able to discern that this desire is coming only from the flesh, and cannot be satiated outside of God's commandments. the desire subsides rapidly. what i would like to develop better is controlling the intensity of desire. i find that even watching a little television, even innocent programmes, with beautiful women can trigger this desire. is more intense fasting and prayer the key to nullifying these desires? i would appreciate your advice.

Anonis

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Andonis,

What you are experiencing is normal and natural.

Remember your age and hormones. How you handle this natural reaction, that is what is important. The devil can use this concern, both ways to screw you up inside.Pray and be aware of what is happening.

Br Paul

[Fr Averky]

Dear Adonis,

I am sorry, but I cannot agree that what you are experiencing is "natural and normal." We live in world where all kinds of sins, many of them unnatural are now being called natural and normal. This simply is not so. As Christians, we desire to live a life in Christ, and even though Christ shared in our humanity, He did not share in our sinful and fallen nature. Bodily purity is the state into which man came into this world. Our Saviour as both Man and God is all-pure, and the meaning of the Christian life -our earthly journey, is the desire to be like Christ. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed in Paradise, but when they did not obey God and fell, they then noticed taht they werre naked and hastened to cover themselves. Have yoiu noticed that when you ask your questions concerning bodily purity that there is always an element of shame?

This not to say that I am against sexuality, but it is part of our fallen nature, and that is why we are never comfortable with it. Sad to say, we live in a world in which sexuality is given much too much emphasis -sexuality replaces true love, and that is why so many marriages fail. People do not understand the real purpose of marriage, which is the mutual salvation of two people. Because people of the modern age desire the things of the flesh, their criterion for marriage is totally worldly - the girl has to be thin and beautiful, the man has to have a great physique - both desire wealth, nice homes, at least two cars, great vacations, secure stock options, and if they time, a child or two who will not inconvenience their life style. I had a good friend who was an attorney who specialized in divorces, and he said that the great American tragi-comedy is that people married to have sex, and after a year, they were no longer having any sex at all. Marriage has little to do with sex. Metropolitan Philaret says that it is a mistake to marry for "love," because that love is not love at all, but if a couple marries for mutual salvation, the love will grow, and the children who will be the product of that growing love - in Christ - will be a joy their parents and a comfort in their old age. There is purity is marriage, for the Crowning Service, the Orthodox wedding ceremony, more than once speaks of a 'bed undefiled." That is why during fasting periods, marriaed couples are called upon by the Church to abstain from sex for the sake of their salvation. In Protestant and Catholic weddings, the couple marrry each other, in the Orthodox Church, the couple is joined in Holy Union by the Church.

You tell me that you are confused concerning the difference between celibacy and purity. Let us just talk about purity and what impurity causes us. The Fathers of the Church tell us that all of the passions are linked -therefore desires of the flesh are not an isolated factor in our lives. Pride is the mother of all the passsions, for we exalt ourselves and our own desires above those virtues which gain us etenal life - for they can only be attained by humility. Thus, Adonis, if we eat too much, drink to much, sleep to much, are lazy, are judgemental of our brother, if we gossip, if we talk too much, if we freely give in to impure thoughts, desires and actions, if we are remiss in our prayer, if we have no sense of being guilty before the Lord for our sinfulness, if we are puffed with pride and self-importance, how do we expect to have the strength to fend off any temptation at all? We cannot, and we will not. Recently you lamented the fact that a friend had betrayed you - perhaps it was because of your own sinfulness somewhere along the line. Tthe rule, "What goes around, comes around," most certainly applies to our lives. How often we pass ourselves as the "innocent", offended party, when we are looking at the splinter in the other person's eye, not seeing the log in ours. Who are we - any of us to say - well, I know that I am not "wrong." I am not judging you, I am just poining out that we are all so self-centered that we rarely look beyond ourselves and our own personal needs and feelings. All sickness, all sorrow, all loneliness befalls us because of our sinful and prideful lives. Adonis, can we expect heavenly rewards in this life when we are petty and foolish -looking at the sins of others and not those of ourselves? When we judge others, for instance, we are automatically, automatically setting ourselves up for a fall of some sort, be it impurity or something else. Observe how your life flows, my young friend, and if you will be very discerning, you will see a pattern emerge -when you are unkind or judgemental, or relish impure thoughts, or harboor anger or jealosusy on your heart, or over do it some aspect in your life - shortly thereafter, you will find yourself really beset by impure desires or thoughts, or something will happen to make you unhappy, and if you can see this honestly, then you will see that you indeed brought it upon yourself. I am not talking about just you, but all of us.

On the other hand, when we try to live simply, by keeping the fasts and fast days, by saying our prayers, by trying to not let too much bother us, by being to slow to anger, quick to forgive, merciful in our judgement, and quickly forgetting offenses, and treating others with love and respect, we will find that we are not so tormented with evil and impure thoughts. When we can see a beautiful girl and think of her as part of the wonder of God's love and creation, we will not be tmepted to fall to our lower instincts, but will see spiritual beauty and not an object of sexual desire. We always have the choice, you know - we can think in a pure and spiritual manner, or we can be base and sinful When the temptation to think in an impure manner enters our mind, we do have the ability to turn away from it, but all too often, we happily give in, and savor the taste of flesh, not thinking of the purity of the Most Pure Mother of God and the holy angels or of death and of judgement. Remember, that all of Heaven witnesses our every thought, action and deed - either to our salvation, or to our condemnation. There are no actions good or evil that are hidden from ther Face of God.

If all of us had more love for God for one another, then we would not concern ourselves with impure images or thoughts, we would not judge our brother, we would not become angry when our pride was injured, we would not take offense when others slandered us because we would recognize that we are indeed weak and sinful and fallen, not the paragons of virtue that we woud like to imagine ourselves to be. The 50th Psalm puts it best when it says "a broken a contite heart is the acceptable sacrifice to God."

You might think that my words to you are harsh, but Adonis, as I told you once, you keep asking the question again and again, when you know in your heart that you already have the answers. I or anyone else can give you the correct answer until the end of time, but until you are willing to humble yourself and take a long and serious look at your life - at your own weaknesses and failings, and not those of others, you will continue to be confused. You spoke of wanting to be brave -then be brave - stop whining and take action. Thank God you are young, and you have more strength than those of us who are older and more set into our sinfulness. At the same time remember, you do not know when God will call you to Him, and then, Adonis, there will be no more time. I say this with the utmost love and concern. Concern for your salvation. Do not fool yourself into thinking that desires of the flesh or any thought or action that takes us from our salvation is "natural and normal." No Adonis, and Brother Paul, true normalcy is the Life in Christ, and that life is to humbly submit to the will of God in all things, not desiring the things of the flesh snd this world, but that which is pure and eternal, for we are told that all the riches of this world are an illusion, which will crumble to dust in the end -but our soul, and all that we have done good or bad will have its result in eternity. Forgive me if my words offend you, but I answer you from my heart. Beloved in the Lord Adonis, may God give you and all of us the strength the fight the good fight, to indeed be brave, not cowardly and putting aside all desires of this world, run straight into the arms of our Christ!

Your brother and well-wisher
in the Risen Christ,

sinful Averky

[Andonis]

Dear Father Averky,

you once again have struck a deep chord within me, and i am deeply touched by the depth and wisdom of your advice. i do not take offence at all, for you manner is very delicate, and furthermore the truth with which you speak is far too beautiful for me to take offence at. Truth can be painful when it asks you to clearly view your offences and imperfections, but it never takes away from its astonishing beauty. you speak as if you have taken an x-ray of my heart, and can see clearly what is written on it. every word of your post is so directly relevant to all that i have been thinking and acting, and striving to be.

i think the greatest trap that the Evil one is able to set is that of pride. i find that dwelling in the world will at some point or another require you to defend your own selfish ambitions. this is often what brings one into conflict with one's neighbour. i know that with the example of my freind, it was over the same thing. if i didn't have to fight aggresively to show somebody where it is that they committ injustices towards me, i would ever so gladly let them walk all over me. it is in my attempt to protect my interests that i come into conflict with people. things that i consider inherent rights of every individual. deeper inside me though, i feel a voice saying, have it, have it all(whether that be a job promotion, money, a beautiful girl), for i have Christ and that is all i need in this world. something within me detests having to compete for wordly possessions, when i know that if we could all just strive to worship our Lord, the Lord would grant us all we need and more. it would appear that evil is such a dominant driver of humanity, its got us all so preoccupied with temporary persuits, that we continually fall into the calamity of trying to defend our injured pride when even a slight obstacle is put in our path. i remorse at the feebleness and pettiness of my thoughts and actions, for i know injured pride and selfish ambitions are things of the world. true life is a life in Christ.

what i am most grateful about though, is that God has kept my conscience alive, and capable of constantly examining my sinfullness. God constantly places teachers in my path, and beckons me to stay on the path that my heart yearns for. despite my unworthiness to receive such enormous gifts, they move me to the depths of my soul and keep me striving in the direction of Christ

Yours in Christ
Andonis

[Heather Morinelli]

Andonis,,and all--

Forgive me for barging in on this subject...as who can add much more to what Fr Averky has said?

But I too, have the pull to celibacy. I know this probably sounds stupid coming from me...I'm not even two steps along in my journey.

I will share with you an event that took place a few weeks ago.....The very day that I acknowledged this feeling in my heart, my ex-husband showed up that night, and tried to beg me to come back to him. He was drunk and had been doing other things of which I won't mention. I talked to him for a little while, then told him that I knew he was searching for answers..but he had already tried to find them in me, but there were none.

The next day I started a book about Elder Joseph of Optina. There on page 48 was a quote: "It's always like that," said the Elder,"As soon as a person starts thinking of going on the path of salvation, right away there appears an obstacle and temptation."

Just thought I'd share. Forgive me if I'm out of line.
--heather

[John Wilson]

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!

We had asked our spiritual father one time what was the cause of all those thoughts of the flesh that we seemed to constantly have to struggle against. He told us that it is the result of judging others, for when we judge we cause the Holy Spirit to leave us, and what is left behind but flesh.

John

[Fr Averky]

Heather,

God bless you for not falling to the temptation. Life alone with two children is most difficult, and may God and the Most Pure Mother of God watch over you.

Fr.Averky

[Fr Averky]

Beloved in the Lord, Adonis CHRIST IS RISEN!

Thank you for your lovely answer. I in no way wanted to hurt or even wound you but I am bound in my heart to tell you what the Church teaches, not my own opinion, which is worth nothing at all.

Look at the second paragraph of your response - as I have said to you more than once, you in your heart truly know the answers, and you know what, all of us do, if only we are willing to be humble.
My response to you is no great revelation, it is merely what I have been taught, and that which I try to live, but Adonis, I too am weak and sinful - I experience myself all that you speak of, and it is for that that I love you and all my brothers and sisters in Christ. We have in common our important goal -salvation, but we also have in common the struggle that we experience in reaching that goal. In some areas, what might be very easy for you, is an almost insurmountable task for me; there might be sins and thoughts against which you war daily and about which I never even have a thought. And so it is for all of us, my dear Adonis, but what gives us strength and hope and the will to go on is if we cling steadfastly to our Saviour, He will never fail us, and lovingly forgives us, even when we lie to Him and betray Him. Also, Adonis, we gain strength when we love our neighbor and help him along the way, picking him up when he falls, running back for him when he falls behind.

Everyone in this community has been helped and somehow changed by the contact we have with each other - we live thousands and thousands of miles apart - In the UK, Lebanon, New Zealand, Greece Australia, Sweden. and the U.S. and other places, but our hearts are linked by the prayerful concern that we give to each other. We do not always agree, we can become offended, and sometimes are unkind in our words nad lose patience with once another, yet Adonis, we are like a family, looking out for each other. We are not all of the same Church, but there is that common thread, that common desire to learn and to share our experiences, sorrows, and wisdom we have gained, and lessons we have learned. In a moment of sinful weakness, I allowed myself to let painful experiences of having left the Church that nurtured me and expresssed my resentment at hearing of her teachings - I was gently rebuked, and hastened to humbly submit my apology. There was a lesson for me there, and I am grateful. At times, I feel that I must say something, even if it might not be comfortable for me to say, or uncomfortable for others to hear, but in matters of the teachings of the Church, I have no choice.

Adonis, again, I have gone, on, I am not a man of few words, but I want so much to help you not make the terrible mistakes that I did in my own youth. Like any parent wishes that he could pass on that wisdom he has gained - too late- to his child, I want so much to help you on the road to salvation. I see your good heart and your sincere desire to save yourself, and I wish only one thing for you - eternal joy with God. I have been richly blesed to have had so many wonderful teachers along the way, and from my heart I wish to give you and the members of this community a portion of that treasure. I do not think that I have much more time on this earth, and if I can stand before God and say, "My Lord, I sincerely tried my best", I hope that He can forgive me my sins and let me be into the very lowest place in His kingdom, not because I was in any way worthy, but because He is merciful. During my visit, my host says that he has noticed thatt I have only about two hours of energy a day. I save what is left to talk to you and all my beloved friends - especially you Owen! Adonis, make a copy of the second paragraph of your response to me, and put it where you can read it - often. God bless you, young man - God bless you! God bless all of you, my dear friends!

the poor one who prays for you,
Father Averky

[M. Rallis]

Christ is Risen!

Fr. Averky, your love for God, and your love in Him for all of us somehow finds its way through this medium of electrons and the technology that turns them into words, and still is able to warm the heart and wet the eyes of a sinner like me.

may God grant you many years!

[Olympiada]

Dear James,

I do not know if you will get this or not and I do not have time to read this whole thread right but I wanted to offer you a word of advice. If you do not feel absolutely certain about marriage, do not do it. It may end in divorce. I speak from experience. I too sat on the fence about marriage and monasticism and was kind of forced into marriage and it ended in divorce. I have been given the gift of celibacy now and I too find Dr. Steenberg's article on celibacy beautiful. But my celibacy came at a very *high* price. If you have that gift now *do not throw it away*.

That is my two cents.
INXC
Ms. Kane

[Paul Cowan]

I read Matthew Steenberg's beautiful article on celibacy, and I certainly like and want all things God gives to someone with this gift.

Where might this article be now?

[Margaret S.]

Where might this article be now?

Dear Paul

I think this is it. It is certainly one I've found very helpful and interesting.

http://www.monachos.net/content/monasticism/monastic-spirituality/94-a-brief-word-on-celibacy

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Paul

I think this is it. It is certainly one I've found very helpful and interesting.

http://www.monachos.net/content/monasticism/monastic-spirituality/94-a-brief-word-on-celibacy

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

Thank you Margaret. I never would have found it on the site.

Paul