Want to become a monk...

[Andreas Demetri]

I would like to become a monk though there apears to be very little information about this on this site. Would be very grateful for help that could be given to me

Thank you
Andreas

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Andreas,

You will find it generally to be the case that there is very little information online on 'how to' become a monk. The decision to follow a calling into the monastic vocation is a very personal one, unique for every individual, and thus the 'process' for doing so is also unique for every individual. The Orthodox Church does not have, as some other churches do, a prescribed rule or order for monastic entry.

If one is genuinely interested in following this path, the course of action to take is to begin an affiliation with a monastery, under the guidance and with the blessing of your spiritual father. Once there, your desires can be expressed to the abbot, and the process will continue from there.

INXC, Matthew

[Vlad Benea]

I don't think there is really any advice one could give you about becoming a monk. Except for your spiritual father of course. But one of the Fathers says that in two things there can be no advice: monastic life and marriage. That is, your spiritual father can at most bless your decision, but not set you towards it.

In Christ,
Vlad

[tony saris]

i find monastic life intrigueing, and in many ways a calling. i have found the more i discover orthodoxy, the less desire i have to get caught up in wordly affairs and persuits. i guess my question is, isn't it a selfish existence to live in such an insular way, and avoid the trials and tribulations of common man? or would god prefer that you try and do your best in the world, rather than confine yourself to a monastic life, stemming from a selfish desire to elevate oneself spiritually, over the duty we have to common man?

[Justin]

The thing about monasticism is, you aren't avoiding trials and tribulations, but exchanging one set for another. You also aren't leaving your duty to love your neighbor, but exchanging one way of showing it and taking up another. The monk will not often be in the position to give food to those who are hungry, or his coat to those who are cold (at least, after he enters the monastery); but he can benefit his neighbors in other ways, especially by prayer to God. He may also perhaps, in time, write some things down as well, or pass along what he knows orally to people. Prayer is the most powerful thing in the world, and the prayers of a humble, sincere monk gains much. Many people (not you) seem to think that going to a monastery is neglecting your Christian duty, but in reality becoming a monstic is the highest calling for a Christian, for it is about devoting yourself as wholly as you can to seeking God and praying for your fellow men.

If indeed the goal is to "elevate oneself spiritually," (as an end in itself) the person likely wouldn't be allowed to become a monk anyway. If spiritual lust is the cause for becoming a monastic, it will be spotted. This isn't the same thing as just wanting to focus and grow in God, though, which is what it sounds like is happening to you. There's nothing wrong with going to a monastery to seek the Lord and let him work out your salvation with you.

Don't be so quick to think you'll be giving up the "ordinary stuff" though... if they find out you don't like doing dishes, guess who will be doing dishes for the next decade every night? ;) There are lots of ways of testing to see whether it is spiritual lust, or indeed a sincere desire to be with God, that leads you to monasticism. God Bless you on your journey.

[Janet]

Is it a greater sacrifice, then, to be a monk or a nun, than to be a married person?

[Justin]

I think it differs from person to person, though in general monasticism is a higher calling. The sacrifices differ greatly between monasticism and marrage, being of a much different kind; it's not really about one being greater or less a sacrifice. The most important one is not to determine which is the greater sacrifice in general, but rather, which is the best for for each of us individually.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Janet,

We have had some very good discussion in this community on the relationship of the 'callings' of monastic and married life; i.e., is one 'higher' than the other, etc. (See the Asceticism and Marriage (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1460) thread for that discussion).

But I think that your question is slightly different than those posed there. Namely, the question of sacrifice in monasticism and marriage is very important. While I do agree with the assertion that monasticism is the 'higher path' (as I've explained elsewhere), I don't believe this means that sacrifice is 'greater' in monasticism than marriage -- or good marriage, in any case. We must say that the manner of sacrifice is very different for monastics than for married persons; but 'greater' and 'lesser' do not really apply. One can sacrifice greatly as a monk, or poorly. One can sacrifice poorly as a spouse, or very greatly.

When one chooses either path, one willingly engages upon a specific journey of asceticism and sacrifice. In both cases, the deeper the sacrifice made, the holier the journey becomes (we have lost, to a great degree in modern society, the notion of marriage and family as mutual self-sacrifice).

INXC, Matthew

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Janet,

As I've read the posts (and some other material), this thought comes to mind: the greatest sacrifice to be made, is the one in which we lose ourself for the sake of Christ. The Apostle Paul says it this way "...Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it". Self preservation is a very deep rooted drive within each of us; therefore, this is a hard and long process, if in fact we ever desire, and begin at all!

the unworthy servant

[Owen Jones]

The desire to sacrifice is also something that is deeply rooted in human nature. It goes on all the time without a specifically religious motive. Certainly one does not to be a Christian to desire to sacrifice oneself for others.

It also gets perverted all the time into ideology and other false directions. The challenge for the church is to provide instruction on how we are to sacrifice in a specifically Christian way and provide constant support and reinforcement. Of course, the Church is us.

[Owen Jones]

Andreas,

I know a monk who lives in the high desert in New Mexico. He has labored spiritually for years and I believe his efforts are sincere. He has not tried to be a guru. People are typically looking for gurus these days to tell them what to do because they do not wish to take responsibility. He's not like that. He is open to inquiries for people who might wish to stay for periods of time and join him in prayer and work to determine if they might have a monastic calling. It is St. Michael's Skete. It has a web site.

Owen Jones

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

justin,

(my last post was under Tony Saris)

maybe you can guide me with my thinking once again. partly what makes monasticism very attractive to me, is that to live in this world is to accept that you will live amongst injustice and lack of love. whether subtle or overt, it is expressed in people's lack of concern for one another, and the current trend in modern society of individualism and "do unto others whatever you feel like".

it almost feels selfish and taking an easier way out to take up monasticism. this is because living in the world, means putting up with corruption of thoughts and actions, both your own and other people's. Sure as an individual i may fight for asceticism, but when you see that most of those around you don't, it seems to alienate you, rather than bring you closer to those around you.

i at times feel guilty, asking God forgiveness if i am mistakedly judging others too harshly, and elevating myself to the point of being too good for the world. for this is vainglory. i ask forgiveness if my desire to escape the world stems mainly from weakness and lack of character to deal with the worlds chaos.

for i see what i read in the book of Ecclesiastes, vanity, vanity it is all vanity. the moral fabric of society deteriorating, people acting purely out of self centredness and not of the desire to serve God, monasticism seems a dream come true. on the other hand, there are many whom endure the trials and tribulations of the world, and give much to their fellow man.

at this stage of my spiritual evolution, it feels to sacrifice the wordly life, is no sacrifice at all. it is so hard to conclude which one is the right path...

[John Simmons]

Some points about exploring the monastic life suggested by a friend who is planning to become a monk:

A monastic intention is like an intention to ride a bucking bronco - only a firm resolve with a firm grip on the situation will allow one to remain in the monastery As soon as you begin working on such a resolve, expect all the romantic possibilities to begin appearing Good advice for pre-monastics is given in the new edition (in english) of the Letters of Elder Paisius the New (of Mt. Athos) The ABCs of monastic life is given in books such as: The Arena by St. Ignaty Brianchaninov Discourses and Sayings By Abba Dorotheos Spiritual Discourses by Sts. Barsanuphius and John The Ladder of Divine Ascent etc. A relationship to a monastic spiritual Father and/or Brother is helpful - particularly from the monastery one hopes to enter One enters the monastery with the intention to become a monk, but only time as novice reveals whether or not this is possible for the person in question. Finding that one cannot live the monastic life is not necessarily a failure, as one has found God's leading, and has probably benefited from whatever time was spent in the monastery Elder Paisius (At St. Anthony's Monastery noted that one should note how monks spend their time, and begin adapting similar priorities in one's own life according to what is possible while still in the world, rather than just dreaming about "how it will be." Illness can be a showstopper if it prevents one from participating in the common life, but some condescensions are possible. Sickness is often a useful part of monastic life, and if one is willing to be sick in the monastery, it need not be a deterrent. What follows is a brief and incomplete outline summary of the instructions of Elder Paisios the new of Mt. Athos:

+
SUMMARY OF ELDER PAISIOS' INSTRUCTIONS FOR MONASTIC ASPIRANTS WHO
ARE STILL IN THE WORLD

1. Find a spiritual Father who is a friend of monasticism.

Understand the great mission of a monk and see past the
discouraging lack of understanding that people may have.

Monks are the radio operators of the Mother Church.

Monks do not visit those in prison, because they are voluntarily
imprisoned due to their great "philotimo" towards Christ.

(philotimo: the reverent distillation of goodness, the love
shown by humble people, from which every trace of self has
been filtered out. Their hearts are full of gratitude towards
God and to their fellow men, and out of spiritual sensitivity,
they try to repay the slightest good which others do them).

2. For the Preservation of Spiritual and Physical Purity:
It is better to live alienated from the worldly environment
and be close to God rather than to interact with a worldly
environment under that pretext that people won't think you are
unsociable and thus become alienated from God without realizing
it....When you walk, it is better to repeat the Jesus Prayer
and not look left and right.... When you don't have work to do
and cannot make good use of your free time for spiritual work,
it is more beneficial to go to a pigsty....than to be misled and
go to a night-club. There your soul will wallow in the slime
of pleasures, and you will return home full of anxiety, felling
within you this hell as a heavy burden in your heart....Therefore
it is better for the young men who wish to keep their chastity
to avoid women the way they avoid the devil....It is preferable
for young men to struggle hard when their flesh is lively or
flabby in order to acquire manliness, rahter than to be harmed
by their undisciplined flesh.... Try to make both your work
and its environment beneficial for you while you are still in
the world. Then you will have the chance to be helped at work
a bit, return home in serenity, and concentrate more easily.
As a result, your struggle will be easier.

3. Spiritual Study:
The study of the New Testament and the books of the Holy Fathers,
which assist in understanding the Bible, are neccessary for
your concentration in general, your prayer in particular, and
the invigorating of your soul....Before you start your study of
the Holy Fathers, pray for at least two minutes that God will
enlighten you to understand their divine meaning.

* The Lives of Saints
* The Gerontikon or the entire Evergetinos
* The Ladder of Divine Ascent
* Unseen Warfare
* St. Ephraim
* Lausiac History

It is also good to study Abba Isaac even though he is considered
appropriate for the advanced - for his writings also help
beginners grasp the deeper meaning of life and helps them reject
every type of complex, should any exist....(comment on avoiding
superficial and bad books)....Aim as much as you can, that your
study at home enjoys a degree of stillness.

4. Preparation of Parents and Siblings:
Therefore, try as much as you can to untwine all your worldly
balls of wool while still in the world that you will be ready to
intertwine with the brotherhood of the monastery and pray with
your prayer rope in peace....Therefore, my brother, stay away
from dinner parites, etc., even from family ones, because they
will set traps for you....In general, avoid anything that incites
(even a bit) your old man, if you wish to keep your mental and
physical health, which will be necessary for you afterwards
in the monastery that you will enter. You should know that
every trauma caused out of carelessness in the world, either
minor or major, will cause you to lag behind in the monastery.
An experienced spiritual doctor will be needed to look after
you and, of course, all of these changes will cause you to suffer.

5. Family Obligations:


THE DEPARTURE FROM THE WORLD

1. When that blessed hour arrives for you to leave the world to
become a monk, first examine yourself to see if your heart is
entirely yours, or whether someone else has taken hold of a small
part of it. Do not be in a hurry to leave for the monastery,
my brother, unless you have collected your heart within yourself,
otherwise you will fail. Even if you have sentimentally given one
one-thousandth of your heart to another person, the enemy will
cause problems for you later on. He will be entrenched within
this very small part of your heart, will fight you now with
the flesh, now with the thoughts, and then with both combined.
And the worst is that he will dominate the whole of your heart
after you have become a monk and then you will be found in
a deadlock.

2. Another serious issue that you should be mindful of before
you start your monastic life - that you may have peace in the
monastery and your parents may have all the blessings of God,
in this life and the next (since you depart with the blessing of
your spiritual Father) - is to entrust everyone and everything
to God. Absolute trust in God is an unceasing prayer for them.

3. Selecting the Monastery:

4. Monasticism and the Worldly Mentality:

[Owen Jones]

Thanks, John, for a very nice synopsis. In your research have you run across any advice to a peripatetic solitary? Other than the Way of the Pilgrim, of course.


Do you see a the possibility of an American version of the Holy Fool type possibly springing up?

[John Simmons]

Owen,
There has to be some path for peripatetic solitaries in America, given the problems with American Marriages. I am drawn to a quote from St. Ignaty again:

"I remember certain pious laymen, even from the nobility who were
contemporaries in my youth, who led a very simple life and were
occupied with the Jesus Prayer. This precious custom now, with the
general weakening of Christianity and monasticism, has almost been
lost. Praying in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ requires a sober,
strictly moral life, the life of a sojourner or a pilgrim. It
demands the abandoning of passionate attachments. But, for us,
distraction has become a necessity, a vast acquaintanceship, the
gratification of the great number of our passions, benefactors and
benefactresses. "Jesus departed, a multitude being on that place."

I have run across a few other gems specifically written for laypeople in the world (I will post one later).

Foolishness for Christ's sake is always listed as the MOST difficult podvig. I don't see how we can have this, when we barely have monasticism, and only in the cenobitic and skete forms, realistically speaking. We are also told that Eldership as it has been known, is generally not given to our times (although there is some eldership in Russia and Romania today).

Then again, we are told that Holy Foolishness often arises in times of false piety, so...who knows :-)

[John Simmons]

The Rule For Attending To Oneself For One Dwelling In The World

Written For A Certain Layman As a Result of His Desire To Live A Vigilant Life
In The World

By St. Ignatii Brianchaninov

The soul of all practices in the Lord is VIGILANCE. Without VIGILANCE, all
these practices are fruitless. He who is desirous of saving himself must so
establish himself that he might remain continuously VIGILANT toward HIMSELF,
not only in solitude, but also under conditions of distraction, into which
he is sometimes unwillingly drawn by circumstances.

Let the fear of God outweigh all other sensations upon the scales of your
heart; and then will it be convenient to for you to be VIGILANT TOWARD
YOURSELF, both in the silence of your kellia [cell] and in the midst of the
noise that surrounds you from all sides.

A well-reasoned moderation in foodstuffs, diminishing the passionate heat of
his blood, tends greatly to facilitate your being able to ATTEND TO
YOURSELF; while the impassioning of your blood, stemming, as it does, from
an excessive consumption of foodstuffs, from extreme and intensified bodily
movements, from the inflammation of wrath, from being heady with vanity, and
by reason of other causes, gives rise to a multitude of thoughts and
reveries-in other words, to distraction. The Holy Fathers, first of all,
ascribe to such a one as is desirous of ATTENDING TO HIMSELF a moderate,
evenly-measured, constant abstention from food. ( Dobrotoliubiye
[Philokalia], Pt. II, Ch. of St. Filofei [Philotheus] of the Sinai)

Upon awakening from sleep-an image of the awakening from the dead, which
awaits all men-direct your thoughts to God, offering up to Him the
first-thoughts of your mind, which has not yet become imprinted with any
vain impressions whatsoever.

Having carefully fulfilled all the needs of the flesh upon arising from
sleep, quietly read your customary rule of prayer, taking care not so much
for the quantity of your prayerful expression, as for the quality of it;
i.e., do it ATTENTIVELY, so that, by reason of your ATTENTION, your heart
might be enlightened and enlivened through prayerful feeling and
consolation. Upon concluding your rule of prayer, do you again, direct all
your strength to the ATTENTIVE reading of the New Testament, primarily the
Evangel. In the course of this reading, intently take note of all the
instructions and commandments of Christ, so that you might direct all your
actions-both manifest and veiled-in accordance with them.

The quantity of the reading is determined by one's strength and by one's
circumstances. It is unnecessary to weight-down one's mind with an excessive
reading of prayers and Scripture; likewise, is it unnecessary to neglect
one's needs in order to practice immoderate prayer and reading. Just as the
excessive use of foodstuffs disorders and weakens the belly, so too does the
immoderate use of spiritual food weaken the mind and create in it a
revulsion to pious practices, leading it to despair. ([St.] Isaak the
Syrian, "Sermon 71")

For the novice, the Holy Fathers suggest frequent-but brief-prayers. When
one's mind matures with spiritual age, becoming stronger and more manly,
then shall one be in proper condition to pray without ceasing. It is to such
Christians as have attained to maturity in the Lord that the words of the
Apostle Paul pertain:

I DESIRE, THEREFORE, THAT MEN PRAY EVERYWHERE, LIFTING UP HOLY HANDS,
WITHOUT ANGER AND REPROACH. (I Tim. II, 8) i.e., dispassionately, and
without any distraction or inconstancy. For that which is natural to the man
is not yet natural to the infant.

Enlightened, through prayer and reading, by our Lord, Jesus Christ, the Sun
of Righteousness, one may then go forth to carry out the affairs of one's
daily course, VIGILANTLY taking care that in all one's deeds and words, in
one's entire being, the All-holy will of God might prevail, as it was
revealed and explained to men in the Commandments of the Evangel.

Should there be any free moments during the course of the day, use them to
read ATTENTIVELY some chosen prayers, or some chosen portions of Scripture;
and, by means of these, fortify the powers of your soul, which have become
exhausted through activity in the midst of a world of vanities.

Should there not be any such golden moments, it is necessary to regret their
loss, as though it were the loss of a valuable treasure. What is wasted
today should not be lost on the day following, because our heart
conveniently gives itself up to negligence and forgetfulness, which lead to
that dismal ignorance, so ruinous of Divine activity, of the activity of
man's salvation.

Should you chance to say or to do something that is contrary to God's
commandments, immediately treat your fault with repentance; and, by means of
sincere contrition, return to the Way of God, from which you stepped aside
through your violation of God's will. Do not linger outside the Way of God!
Respond with faith and humility to sinful thoughts, reveries and sensations
by opposing to them the Gospel commandments, and saying, along with the holy
patriarch Joseph:

HOW SHALL I SPEAK THIS EVIL WORD AND SIN BEFORE GOD? (Gen. XXX, 9)

One who is VIGILANT toward oneself must refuse himself all reverie, in
general-regardless of how attractive and well-appearing it might seem, for
all reverie is the wandering of the mind, which flatters and deceives it,
while being outside the truth, in the land of non-existent phantoms, and
incapable of realization. The consequences of reverie are: loss of VIGILANCE
toward oneself, dissipation of the mind, and hardness of heart during
prayer, whence comes distress of the soul.

In the evening, departing into slumber-which, in relation to the day just
past, is death-examine your actions during the course of that day. Such
[self-] examination is not difficult, since, in leading an ATTENTIVE life,
that forgetfulness which is so natural to a distracted man is destroyed
through VIGILANCE TOWARD ONESELF. And so, having recollected all your sins,
whether through act, or word, or thought, or sensation, offer your
repentance to God for them, with both the disposition and the heart-felt
pledge of self-amendment. Later, having read the rule of prayer, conclude
the day which was begun by meditating upon God by meditating, once again,
upon God. Whither do they depart-all the thoughts and feelings of a sleeping
man? What mysterious state of being is this sleep, during which the soul and
body are both alive and yet not alive, being alienated from the awareness of
their life, as though dead? Sleep is as incomprehensible as death. In the
course of it, one's soul reposes, forgetting the most-cruel earthly
afflictions and calamities that have beset it, while it images its eternal
repose; while one's body (!!) ... if it rises from sleep will also arise,
inevitably, from the dead.

The great Agafon said: "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SUCCEED IN VIRTUE WITHOUT
EXERTING VIGILANCE TOWARD ONESELF." (The Patericon of Skete)

Amen.

Excerpted from The Writings of Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov: Ascetic Essays,
Volume I, pp. 185-187 (in Russian). Translated into English from the Russian
by George Spruksts intrprtr@prodigy.net. English-language translation
copyright (c) 1999 by The St. Stefan of Perm' Guild, The Russian Cultural
Heritage Society, and the Translator. All Rights Reserved. Permission is
hereby granted to use this essay for non-commercial purposes, as long as
this entire notice is included therewith.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

which requires more viginlance, certainly the wordly life. living in the world, whether you wish or not, is to observe and to some degree participate in the uncleanliness of the world. to try and adopt a just and honest approach to people of the world, is similar to a country without an army, which can be attacked and destroyed at any instance. you fight fire with fire, for you begin to structure your life in order to live with the injustices and immoralities that surround you, for you own survival you evolve into a selfish, self seeking, self serving person whom will inevitably tread on others.

monastisticism on other hand offers an alternative. you are no longer wrestling in a pigsty, where dirtying your self is inevitable. you isolate youself and begin to do battle with your own demons, away from the vain cares of the world. which battle would one rather fight? this is the question i ask myself today...

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

i pose some further questions regarding monstacism. would appreciate anybody's advice:

1)can monastics receive medical attention? i for instance have asthma, and have to use releivers and preventatives from time to time. does an illness such as asthma immediately disqualify somebody from the monastic life? how are these kinds of issues resolved?

2)if monsaticism is a higher calling, if all the world where to live as monastics do, are we supposing that we would create a kind of heaven on earth?

Andonis

[sinjin smithe]

Andonis, I can't specifically answer your questions here but I just read a book called Youth of the Apocalypse written by two monks who talk about the spiritual state of the world. It discusses what is wrong with society today and proposes a cure for it which is Christ. The monks encourage us to die to the world and begin to live for Christ. It is a very good book and I would suggest it for anyone pondering entering into the monastic life or yearning to understand the state of modern society today. It is published by St. Herman of Alaska Press.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

how can i order it from Australia? i might check with one of our monasteries... thanks Sinjin, i really love getting my hands on books such as these...

[sinjin smithe]

You can go to their webpage and order. I don't know for sure if they do international orders but you could check with them. The address is: St Herman Press (http://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog)

[Martin]

1)can monastics receive medical attention? i for instance have asthma, and have to use releivers and preventatives from time to time. does an illness such as asthma immediately disqualify somebody from the monastic life? how are these kinds of issues resolved?

Yes, they can. Monasteries on Mount Athos often have monks who are trained doctors, and certified doctors from Thessalonica come by every so often. Some of the monasteries have dentists, with full blown dentists offices right in the monastery itself.


2)if monsaticism is a higher calling, if all the world where to live as monastics do, are we supposing that we would create a kind of heaven on earth?

Yes.... this is one of the whole points.

Martin

[Moses Anthony]

Andonis & Martin

If perchance I'm missing the point here, please let me know!

The matter of monasticism being a higher calling was discussed in another thread, whose name I don't remember (ask Matthew), I'd like to speak to the point of creating "...a kind of heaven on earth".

There's a phrase in the model prayer, and my limited understanding of 'kingdom' as it appears in the Bible, which are the basis for my comments.

The Kingdom of God is both physical and immaterial, it is both present and future. The most striking thing is this, we know it's not like any fifedom this world has to offer. My understanding about God was that wherever I'm at, my struggle was to submit myself in obedience to God, so that the rule and authority (ie; kingdom/heaven) of God would be evident.

Creation is the business of God, it is also His choice to 'show off' those servants of His to the demons and all creation (Job), "...that men may glorify your Father in heaven".

the unworthy servant

[John Simmons]

We have to be careful with phrases like creating "Heaven on Earth", which often come from chiliastic ideas. Monasteries are primarily battlegrounds, with aspects of paradise sometimes attained in advance by the one who has conquered the passions. But the tension of battle is never gone until the soul attains blessed repose. Just read the biography of the Optina Elders, and the reality is set forth.

[Andonis]

thanks everybody, all excellent responses. i agree with you John, that "heaven on earth" is quite sweeping. i guess what i wanted to allude to was more in terms of experiencing Christian brotherly love and community, in a sense which far exceeds anything you can experience in the secular world. i can't for the life of me imagine being in a community whose main focus is to serve God. this for me sounds like a kind of heaven, in so far as there is a strong sense of unity and common beleif. quite incomparable to divine paradise ofcourse, but maybe an inkling, a small human model from which we can approach the divine...

[Elizabeth Riggs]

Monastic life is very hard work. Living in close proimity to other people and their idiosyncracies is almost like living in a family with 10 or more siblings. Remember the adage - when you pray for patience, God sends you many opportunities to practice it. When going into a monastary, God gives you many opportunities to *practice* for Heaven. There is no heaven on earth - only practice for the real thing, with many distractions. Monastic life deletes some of the temptations and distractions of laic life, but has its very own temptations and distractions. Go visit some monastic communities for significant lengths of time before making up your mind. As Orthodoxy does not have "orders," each monastery has it's own "culture" if you will. You will need to find one with which you are compatible and which is accepting of you. You may "luck out" and find the right one first time at bat, but more likely you will be visiting monasteries for a good while before settling down on one.

You will be in my prayers.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

[Andonis]

Thank you Elizabeth,

you are right, i know that it would be very difficult. i become even more discouraged when i am a witness to my own constant failings in the secular life to even maintain a strict routine of praying, and other more simple orthodox practises. and its easy to blame the modern world and its distractions for my lack of discipline. but i figure if i can't get these basics right in the secular world, how can i even comtemplate entering a monastic community.

Andonis

[Andonis]

also curious, there appears that many of the posters here may have considered a monastic life. my question is, how can you tell, what is the defining moment or thing that either directs you to remain as part of the laity, or to try the monastic life? have any of you tried and realised that it wasn't your calling after all? would appreciate your responses...

In Christ
Andonis

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Well, Andonis, I once spent a week on retreat in an enclosed order (of women) whilst I was seriously considering entering the religious life. Before that I had spent my 3 undergraduate years in a hostel run by a teaching order of nuns. What I discovered was that the plethora of petty restrictions obscured my sense of the numinous, and the close daily company of other women (particularly the novice mistress in this case) would have driven me to distraction. I also realised during these periods that my particular divinely appointed gifts as a talented singer and my solitary temperament indicate that a conventual life is not for me. So I try instead to live a quasi-monastic life in the world. In earlier days this would include reciting the whole of the Divine Office (the monastic breviary) daily but that is too onerous and time-consuming in the average working life.

I think it takes a great deal of self-knowledge, courageous examination of motives and alternatives, and rare self-possession to survive and thrive in a community, and unless the prospect (and experience, once tried) inspires in you joy rather than tedium, my advice is: don't even contemplate it as a permanent way of life. Why not however sample a few monasteries as a guest, and if you should encounter a particularly charismatic spiritual guide along the way, this may indicate what your own vocation should be. At the least reckoning it could enhance your vision and inner growth.

How refreshing it is to read such accounts from all posters here of real spiritual motivation amongst Orthodox Christians. One principal reason for my deep alienation from the RC church is its legalistic and repressive outlook in respect of the personal quest for wisdom. But then look at Cherie Blair (Booth), who seems to marry her RC faith quite happily with the practice of New Age nostrums and association with lifestyle gurus. Maybe that's the Third Way in practice?

The seeker.

[Elizabeth Riggs]

>>Posted by Andonis on Wednesday, 11 December, 2002 - 4:14 am:

>>also curious, there appears that many of the posters here may have considered a monastic life. my question is, how can you tell, what is the
defining moment or thing that either directs you to remain as part of the laity, or to try the monastic life? have any of you tried and realised
that it wasn't your calling after all? would appreciate your responses...

>>In Christ
>>Andonis<<

Dear Andonis,

I considered the monastic life as a child. Realized it was more a "romantic dream" when I was a teenager, but continued to be interested in it. Made the acquaintence of the members of a brotherhood and have kept contact with them over the years. My husband and I have grave plots in the cemetary they own. At this time in my life, I find I think more and more of "last things." My husband, who is, as literally as can be in this life, my other half, and I have decided that whichever of us dies first, the other will go to a monastery - at least for a while. It will permit us to "try" the life and see if that is really for us. It will also permit us to cut many ties here on earth and let us cement more ties to God and heaven.

The thing that is difficult for me is that I have so many things that tie me to this earth and distract me from focussing "there." Children, grandchildren, friends, business, all of these keep me "here" when I know I should be focussing "there." Going to a monastery even if only for a few weeks or months as well as knowing my other half is with God, I think will help me focus "there" better.

Sometimes it is the timing in life. It may be that I have a vocation and that the time for it will be after my husband's death. OR, it may be that I do not have a vocation afterall. One way or another, I will find out. My husband feels the same way. Right now, however, we are trying to help lead each other to salvation - however poorly we do it - as we are adjured to do in marriage.

I have found that, at least for now, I have a "true" vocation for marriage. Our bond is very close. We pray together, we laugh together, we mourn together. He helps keep my emotions from running away with me, and I help him acknowledge his rather than burying them in a mound of logic and reason. We work on subduing "the passions" together and try to set some kind of good example for our children and grandchildren.

There are many vocations - some monastic, some marriage, some a celibate life in the world. While monastic life can approach the angelic life, remember that it can also lead to prelest and self-delusion (of course, so can any other kind of life!). Wherever we are in life, we must gird our loins and try to work out our salvation. Perhaps even these electronic forums are a part of our work toward salvation.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

[Owen Jones]

You sound like you are getting way, way, ahead of yourself, Andonis. Patience is probably the true hallmark of the ascetic. One story relates a solitary who was short of water and prayed and prayed for months before deciding whether he should gouge a whole out of the rock to catch rainwater. He did not want to offend God by presuming that He would not provide for him, but he also did not presume to know God's will. Today, we are all in a hurry, even for the spiritual goodies, like grabbing for our presents under the Christmas tree. Don't rush. If you want to know whether or not you should be a monk, here are some suggestions:

1. always get in the longest check-out line, or drive-thru.
2. do small things for people without them knowing about it.
3. spend one day identifying all negative thoughts and removing them
4. spend one hour sitting still, reciting the Jesus Prayer
5. spend some time around some people who are fat and smelly (most monastics are).
6. the next time someone says something critical of you, say absolutely nothing. Just nod your head, yes.
7. try to help an alcoholic or drug addict get into treatment, without losing your temper
8. add to this list till you get to ten. you get the idea.

[Andonis]

thank you all for your insightful stories. Owen once again i can't help but wholeheartedly agree with you. i guess what i find frustrating it the time it takes to understand what truly is God's will for me. although i try and listen at times whether he is indeed satisfied with the way i am living i just can't tell. no 5 in your list i must admit brought about some really distasteful imagery. it has really prompted me to reconsider...

[Andonis]

i hope everybody realises i'm only joking...even with such a small list as Owen's, it still is a good reality check...

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Yes, I know you are joking, Andonis, but Owen makes a serious point in that being surrounded by unlovely people may not necessarily do wonders for one's spiritual development unless one is unusually able to sublimate the experience (or of a masochistic disposition, I suppose). And I agree with him, on the basis mainly of frequent holiday or singing visits to mainland Greece and the islands plus doing a couple of concerts in the Greek Orthodox cathedral in London, that Orthodox monks can exhibit an unmodern approach to bodily hygiene and physical care; in addition, I was once unprovokedly groped by one greasy specimen who was showing me and a friend around a monastery church on Crete.

For me, one of the main attractions of the religious life in community would be communal singing of the daily office, but precious few houses in the UK any longer do that properly, apart from the Benedictines (for women, and in the RC tradition, of course). I have heard Orthodox monks in Bulgaria, Cistercians in Hungary, and Premonstratensian canons in Belgium chanting the office; all very different but equally impressive. It gives a real focus to the life in community.

the seeker

[Andonis]

i find it quite remarkable that a monk whilst showing you a holy monastery actually went the grope. is this in complete violation of his monastic vowes, and a repudiation of the holiness he is meant to be aspiring to. its stories like these and others that make the idea of monastic living less and less appealing. i have a video from a scandal that was revealed in Greece in a monastary on the island of Kythera, south of Kalamata. can i tell you that pornographers in Hollywood could not come up with a script like this one. my concern is how are these people penalised? why are they not exiled from the monastic community by their spiritual elders? i can't understand how it is that they would be allowed to continue living there?

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

I should perhaps add, Andonis, that the monk in question was well into late middle age, seemed to be not quite the brightest candle in the box, if not on the way to actual mental decline, spoke no English (and I spoke minimal Greek, and that mostly classical) and he lived with only one or two other old monks. So he was probably lonely, and I felt in retrospect rather sorry for him. He did me no actual harm, though he may have had to expunge his fault here or hereafter. I did register my displeasure by firmly removing his hands from my person and exclaiming in English that I thought his behaviour decidedly inappropriate, but I could not think of an apt Greek expression at the time or since.

the seeker

[John Simmons]

Hmmm, most of the monks I know are smelly and THIN. A quick note about that. Most of the monks I know live in either the desert or the forest. Not keeping to "worldly" levels of bathing is normal. Lots of worldly niceties go by the wayside in the monastery, but in all cases that I am familiar with, monks get squeeky clean if they are making trips into the world, or spending extra time working with people from the world.

[John Simmons]

> my question is, how can you tell, what is the
> defining moment or thing that either directs
> you to remain as part of the laity, or to try
> the monastic life?

What I am told by my monk friends is that you never know until you try - e.g. get clothed as a novice. Most novices never get tonsured. Usually even the "failed" monks have found that their attempt was time well spent, and still contributed to their spiritual life. There is a great photo frontispiece to a chapter on bearing one's cross in the book by St. Theophan the recluse - letters to nuns. It shows a monk on the cross, being tortured by the demons from below, and being encouraged by the angels from above. That picture and the chapter associated with it, is probably a good description of monastic life - joyful suffering.

[Jason Reynolds]

I am very new to this discussion board and have been following the questions and responses only for a very short time. My response to whether or not you know you should 'try' monastecism is that, in my heart of hearts, I believe one 'knows' whether they are called to this way of life or not. There must be a consciousness of a 'call' into this life of separation. This 'knowing' comes through seeking, through prayer and as we continue to seek more of the Lord, He will then reveal His will and purpose for each of our lives in greater dimensions as we simply choose to follow Him. The disciples were not ordained as apostles right away. There was first a 'call' to first and foremost, follow Christ. As they followed our Savior, He instructed and taught them and expounded the Scriptures to them. There was a process of ordianation, of separation, and of stepping into the fullness of the call of God upon thier lives. This all is contingent upon the degree in which we are following Christ in our every day lives whether

[Jason Reynolds]

The following is the rest of the response that seemed to have gotten cut off. Again, I am new to this so my apologies.

This all is contingent upon the degree in which we are following Christ in our every day lives whether we have entered 'ministry' or not. As we are faithful to follow, the Lord will continue to lead each of us into that which He has already prepared for us. As we come to know Him more, we will then come to know our calling on a much greater level with a greater degree of clarity. I honestly don't think it ought to be looked at, as something just to 'try', but if one's heart is leading them in this, and they do sense a calling, then continue in earnest prayer in seeking the Lord, and He will make each of our paths before us straight and clear in the way we should go.

[Owen Jones]

One of the problems with comparing ourselves to the Apostles is that God had some very specific things in mind for them that they really could not get out of very easily, and the cultural environment was also very different than it is today. I am skeptical of expectations that God's will for a vocation would by quite so dramatically clear today. Also, there is precious little institutional guidance and support for such things today, particularly in the U.S. Many bishops are ambivalent about more monks and monasteries at best, since they tend to be a thorn in their side, and they compete for dollars rather than contribute to diocesan budgets. I think that making a connection to a monastery is an important aspect of Christian life, however. That connection might evolve into something more over time. Also, most ethnic Orthodox families in the U.S. want their sons to become successful businessmen and professionals, and would be crestfallen if informed that their son wanted to become a monk. And they want their daughters to be well educated and either become successful professionals or marry a good Greek boy with a business or a career. Also, the careerism in the clergy tends to create an insecurity on the part of many of our clergy who might feel like they are in competition with monks for the devotion of their flock. So they are not likely to encourage monasticism or provide guidance on how to explore this vocation. They would surely incur the wrath of the parents in their parish if they preached on the virtues of monasticism.

Again, I just think it's good practice to visit some monasteries and make a connection to a monastery that seems to be more or less stable and seems to demonstrate some competency. A lot of them have just attracted unstable, alienated people. They are usually happy to have people visit regularly. Sometimes you are invited to receive communion, sometimes not. The Athenite custom is to not permit converts who have not been baptised to even go beyond the narthex, a problem for some of us who were not baptised by our priests or have not yet been baptised, through no fault of our own. But that's not an insurmountable obstacle.

My caution is against wanting to become a monk because you feel lonely. If you feel lonely most of the time, you are going to feel just as lonely, perhaps more so, in a community. Joining a monastery is not about overcoming our psychological feelings of isolation, but doing God's will. We have to have not just a sincere but also a mature desire to do God's will. We cannot expect for our emotional maturity to result from becoming a monk.

[Moses Anthony]

There's an old saying which goes something like this; "The Church is not a club for saints, but a hospital for sinners." The work of the devil doesn't stop at the entry way of a monastery, he just uses different tactics.

Think of the monk who groped Margaret remaining at the monastery, as yourself breaking one of the rules for this community, and at the first offense being kicked out and not allowed to return. Remember we fall down we get up, we fall down we get up. It is a severe and harsh mercy that doesn't take into account human frailty, or allow for repentance!

t.u.s

[Allen]

About going to a monastery because you're lonely.... a thought from a page on this website:


"I met with an old monk and spiritual mentor some years ago, and our conversation quickly turned to the monastic life. I said to him, 'Father I don't know if I am ready to become a monk; I don't know if I can so easily run away from the world.' He replied, 'No, indeed you are not ready. No one is ready for the tonsure until they stop seeing it as running away from the world, and start seeing it as running toward Jesus Christ.'

[Waylon E. Windrow]

Is it possible for an American to go to a monastery in Russia? And if it is possible, what would be the legal process?

[Hermit]

Here are some parishes in Russia, maybe they could give you further information:
http://www.directory.sjkp.org/parishes.php?PHPSESSID=90e60900f5d13aacf819a34cedf 9f921&country=RUSSIA&submitButtonName=Go

Here's a nearby monastery I've been meaning to visit if I can get a ride, but I don't know if they welcome people outside their faith ... they seem very conservative and sectarian from the website. They still use a Julian calendar!

St. Gregory Palamas Monastery
For Men
Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies
P.O. Box 398 (1307 Sawyers Bar Road)
Etna, CA. 96027
(916)467-3228
TOC

Archimandrite Akakios, Abbot

Visitation Information
Three days of hospitality, including meals, are provided in the monastery guest house for men only. No children under 16. No smoking, radios, or personal food are permitted on the grounds. Guests are expected to dress modestly, to avoid interaction or conversation with the monks (except the Abbot and guestmaster), and to attend Matins, Vespers, and the daily Liturgy. While visitors from all Orthodox jurisdictions are welcome, the monastery is strictly traditionalist and follows the Julian Calendar. The Mysteries are not generally available to visitors outside its jurisdiction.

About the Monastery
The St. Gregory Palamas Monastery is a dependency of the Holy Monastery of Sts. Cyprian and Justina in Fili (Athens), Greece, and serves as the spiritual center for the American Exarchate of the Synod of Old Calendarist Greek Orthodox Bishops under Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili. The monastery follows an Athonite typikon. Services are conducted in Greek and English and chanted in Byzantine style. There are eleven monks and one novice in residence. Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, Synodal Exarch in America, and his assistant Bishop Auxentios of Photiki, reside at the monastery.


Points of Contact
Visits
Archimandrite Akakios (916)467-3228
Vocations
Vocations are not solicited

http://www.nettinker.com/monasteries/gregoc.htm

[Justin]

they seem very conservative and sectarian from the website. They still use a Julian calendar!

They aren't "sectarian" http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif Though many groups aren't in communion with this monastery (and Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili), they are indeed an Orthodox group, and in communion with a number of other Orthodox groups, such as ROCOR.

The Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies is also a well-regarded publisher among traditionalists, and they (especially Archbishop Chrysostomos) print some of the best Orthodox material available in English. Met. Cyprian's "moderate ecclesiology" is also a highly respected position among traditionalists.

Justin

PS. The overwhelming majority of Orthodox still use the Julian calendar ;)

[Fr Averky]

I entered my monastery in 1975, and I can truthfully say that it took the first 25 or 26 years to fully understand the fullness of the monastic life. A week or so ago I picked up a copy of "Unseen Warfare," which I had not really read since my days as a novice. It was so wonderful to see how much more I could understand the book than when I fist read it so long ago. I was taught that monasticism is not a "vocation," or a "calling" in the Western sense. It is a particular desire to leave the world when one begins to realize that he does not fit into the world around him, like Dostoevsky's "superflous man." We monks are superflous, because we have a sense of not belonging to the world into which we were born. It is true that you should not enter a monastery because you are lonely; our monastery is like a small city, yet all of the monastics live very individual lives under the direction of their spiritual father. I don't think that I ever experienced more loneliness than during the first few years in the monastery. Then, slowly but surely, I grew to love my silence and my time alone; prayer is less distracting than before, and thinking about God gives me a new strength. Now, I rarely leave the monastery, and since my obedience involves working at my computer, other than services, I rarely leave my cell. And I am quite content. To learn this, I had to go through a real trial by fire; I fell dreadfully ill and experienced not only constant great pain, but had to battle being all alone most of the time, fighting off deep depression. Yet, as it all came to an end, I was to tell my spiritual father that while this had been the worst period in my whole life, at the same time, it turned out to be the best. In the Christian life, not just the monastic life, we have to learn to be patient and endure. to the young man who is thinking about becoming a monk, Owen's advise is very sound; get to know a monastery, visit it when you can, and see how it goes. I can tell you this; until you actually are clothed as a novice, you could live in a monastery until the end of your days and not know this life. God help you!

[peter derick]

rev hieromonk A. hello my father it is your friend peter from australia speaking to you again please allow me to ask this question since you have so much experiance in the monastic life and what great experiance you must have by the innumerable trials you have gone through by the grace of god that he has undeservevedly given to you his servant and messager i too would like to be a monk some day though not yet i still live in the world praying god to send more tests and trials so i can with the help of gods grace get through them and hopefully just purify a little of this sin stained vessel of mine of whom i am responsable for its blackness and corruptness first i implore you by the name of jesus christ dont leave me out of your good prayers and also give me advise on the following my father, i ask you can you explain to me how the fathers mean when they say to flee from temptations and then again they say that we should endure insults and rejections from people and persevere and like in that holy god inspiried book (unseen warfare) it says dont avoid temptations and trials go out look for them please explain to me this deep teaching since it seems strange to me having myself a darkened unpurfied mind filled with passions and not leaving room for grace too inspire me which is not the case with you an obediant servant of the lord your friend petere from australia my and gods love with you forever...

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Peter,

When the Holy Fathers speak about fleeing temptations, they mean to flee temptations, of the flesh, the temptation to be proud or self-satisfied, and so on. When a person is first starting, it is all that he can do just to stay put in the monastery and be patient. When I first entered the monastery, the Father who was given to us as spiritual said in our first little meeting: "When you arrived here, and unpacked your bags, you unpacked the world; your past sins, your failings, your passions, and so on. Only after some time will you understand that you came for all the wrong reasons. Some of you imagine that you will be great ascetics, some of you want to be confessors of the Faith, some of you want to preach and to teach, perhaps once of you would like to be a Geat Martyr. I would say that most likely, none of you will be any of these. When you lived in the world, God in His Mercy covered your sins, even from you - but now, you must beg God to reveal to You your sins, your passions, and weakness, your pride, your arrogance, so that you begin to struggle! On the night before I was clothed as a novice he said to me: "Now you have entered the Arena ( referring to the book by St. Ignatius Briachaninov), and you will be surrounded by wild beasts and men who will wish to destroy you and your soul. The crowd that is watching is the world, and it will not give you support, but will urge the wild animals and evil men to finish you off. but you must cling to Christ your Savior, and He will save you!" I cannot tell you, Peter, how over the years, how many times I thought to myself, "What a mistake I made, to give all my fine things, my home, my friends, my family ,and my Freedom!" In order to learn about his sinfulness, the Lord sends to His monk many trials, slander, rebuke, loneliness, desire, depression, spirtual dryness, doubts, and illnes. But if he can cling on to Christ, slowly, slowly, it all starts to make sense. I think in one of my early posts, I said that this year will be my 28th, and it took the first 26 years to really come to understand and to fully want to live this life. Do not think that you can "purify" yourself in the world to prepare yourself for the monastic life; if you really want to become a monk, don't waste any more time. God bless you

[peter derick]

rev hieromonk a.. my beloved father tahnk you so much for that wonderfull email it enlightened my deep ignorance very much oh reverend when i read it i praised god much firstly for the internet access i have to speak to experianced good monks like your yourself and for this god inspiried email of yours offcourse speaking to other orthodox christians is a immeasurable blessing aswell i like to say thank you and allways to keep poor me in your good prayers god bless you father allways and all obediant orthodox christians god bless you`s allways

[Andonis]

hello Rev.Heiromonk...

i am extreemly pleased to read this post of yours. in previous discussions surrounding this area, there were some opinions floating around that suggested you have to reach some level of purity and spiritual wisdom and from there proceed to try monkhood. but i thought to myself how can this happen, when in the world, despite your best efforts your battles are not only spiritual, but also financial, familial, occupational etc. over recent times i have become a frequent camper. i like to go out and camp on my own, for a few days, live simply and just contemplate, pray and read. what is interesting is whilst camping, i do at times feel entirely focused on God, and growing in confidence that i can reach the level of purity that i seek. then on my return to the world, it only takes a glance at a pretty female, and all the piousness that i have built up, evaporates in an instant. this of course serves to remind me, that it is futile for me to contemplate monkhood whilst i remain so spiritually infantile....

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Adonis

In the lives of the saints, we read how people like St. Seraphim of Sarov or St Sergius of Radonezh were not like other children, wanting to be by themselves, desiring to be in church all the time, and so on. I would say that such people are the rare exception, at least for quite some time now. While there are those who are by their nature seem almost "destined" to be monks, the vast majority of us came for many individual reasons. In 1974 I became very ill with hepatitis, and was very near death. My physician told me that I needed to prepare for my death, because I had perhaps three weeks, no more. I went home and asked God to spare me, for I knew that I had lived my life in a manner not befitting a good Christian. I promised God that if He would let me live, I would become a monk. Slowly, I began to get better. I did not forget my vow, and in 1975 I entered the monastery. I would have easily been voted "Least likely to succeed," because I at first just could not handle it. I was restive, nervous, noisy, and always trying to think of ways that I could get off monastic property. I smile when I think of it now: I rarely leave the monastery , except to serve, and I am in my cell most of the time. Years ago, people used to stop by all the time, and now, I rarely ask any to come to see me. In the early years I was filled with turmoil, asking myself what madness had made me make such a promise to God; He knows how worldly and weak I am! Now, after many years of struggle, I am very content and peaceful. Like any relationship, time is an important factor. Patience, above all is needed- patience with God, patience, with the brotherhood, and most of all patience with one's own self. Your experience while camping is indeed a chance to be closer to God in your heart, but that is because you had the possibility "to get away" from your worldly cares for a little while. In the monastic life, there is no getting away, just daily chipping away at the ego, pride, passions, anger, doubts, fears, and all in the face of dealing with many people with whom you do not have much in common except that you are all struggling for the the goal. We Westerners, especially Americans, find it very difficult to give up our will, and especially to come to grips with the idea that we have no "rights." If you wait to not be spiritually infantile, you might never make it. One has to put all his trust and faith in God, and just jump in! Please pray for me, Adonis, as I will for you.

[Sandra June Hofstead]

Brother in Christ Andonis,

Please do not take offense, but this woman (myself) felt that I needed to reply to your post. This very past week the readings at Vespers remind us that God created women to be beautiful and attractive to men.God did not create man to be alone. When Adam saw the woman he said "Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". Attraction! Something God given in you said the same when you saw that beautiful woman. But if God wills you to be a monk then the attraction will be fleeting as the desire for celibacy in the Lord will be stronger. I would venture to say that the same principle applies to women called to serve the Lord in celibacy. Hunger, thirst, sexual attraction are not evil or sinful, but our disordered way of satisfying them. May God preserve you.

[Andonis]

Hi Sandra,

i do not take offence, in fact i am extreemly appreciative of you highlighting this very important truth. the problem for me, in the secular modern city that i live in, is that i do seek to satisfy these normal desires in a disordered sinful way. i like to use excuses such as too busy no time, one more transgression won't kill me etc etc. i have had girlfreinds in the past, whom not one did i consider marrying. i guess what i stuggle with is how unavailable i find the path whereby one can satiate these natural desires, in accordance with the law of God. it is at times agonising. although this could once again be satan misleading me...

[Fr Averky]

Dear Sandra,

Welcome to the community! I don't think that Adonis [ an interesting self-description] meant to demean women. Forgive me if am wrong, Adonis. He was simply saying that how easy it is for anyone to have a desire to give themselves to Christ in that manner known as monasticism when they are alone in the woods, or on the shore, only to be drawn again to the world and all of its attractions. Women are not the issue, but simply the distractions of the world. When a man is tonsured a monk, God does not give him a special gift of no longer having the desires of the flesh; the monk, or nun, must deal with them as they come along, putting foremost in his mind that he has given himself to Christ. As to desires being "fleeting," it really depends on the individual. Some monastics have to struggle against desires of the flesh all their lives, some have other passions to deal with. I used to do buying for my monastery, and one time I went to the local city with another hieromonk. After I had paid for my purchases and we were walking ou the door, he asked me "Did you see how very red that woman's hair was? I told him that I had not. He said "How could you not see her - she was standing right next to you!" To which I reeplied, "Father, I have to go out of the monastery very often to purchase things for the monastery. I had to teach myself a long time ago to keep my mind and attention on the business of the day, for if I did not, I would bring all kinds of sights, sounds, impressions, and feelings home with me, sometimes bringing back a flood of memories of the world and I do believe that God helps me in that."God bless yuou, Sandra!

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Andonis,

Perhaps you can take some encouragement from the fact that the apothegmata are filled with sayings of Desert Fathers who, despite long years in the desert and obvious spiritual maturity and development, still were tempted by (and sometimes fell prey to) carnal lusts. And these are among the calendared saints of the Church.

It is neither the presence of temptation nor the 'natural' inclination towards entering into it, which stems from the fallen being of the cosmos, that the Fathers lament; but rather what we do in the face of each.

INXC, Matthew

[Andonis]

hello M.C Steenberg,

could you name any of the fathers that fell prey to carnal lusts for me. what kind of sins did they commit ie fornication? didn't falling prey to carnal lusts after years of asceticism just plunge them back to the level of a common man whom knows nothing of ascetisism? i would think that a priest, a monk, a saint would have to give account for falling prey to carnal lusts, much dearer than any lay man...

[sinjin smithe]

Andonis here is one such story.

SAINT JAMES THE FASTER

He lived in the sixth century. He was so perfected in pleasing God that Jamescured the most gravely ill through his prayers. But the enemy of mankind lured him into great temptations. At one time, an immoral woman was sent to him by some scoffers. She misrepresented herself to James, pretending to be crying yet all the while luring him into sin. Seeing that he was going to yield to sin, James placed his left hand into the fire and held it there for some time until it was scorched. Seeing this, the woman was filled with fear and terror, repented and amended her life. On another occasion, James did not flee from his temptation, but rather he succumbs to a maiden, who was brought as alunatic by her parents to be cured of her insanity. He, indeed, healed her and after that, sinned with her. Then in order to conceal his sin he killed her and threw her into a river. As is common, the steps from adultery to murder are not too distant. James lived for ten years after that as a penitent in an open grave. At thattime there was a great drought which caused both people and live-stock to suffer. As a result of his prayers, rain fell; James knew that God had forgiven him. Here is an example, similar to that of David, of how twisted is the demon of evil; how by God's permission, the greatest spiritual giants can be overthrown, and through sincere and contrite penance, God, according to His mercy, forgives even the greatest sins and does not punish those when they punish themselves.

[Andonis]

interesting story, in fact almost unbeleivable. it appears Saint James took an incredible gamble. the sin's he ended up committing are definitely in the category of the more grotesque, and hard to be redeemed from. i wonder what his motivation was? did he actually allow himself to be lured so that he would have to greive and repent at a more intense level, thereby gaining salvation. i know there is no scientific explanation for why he would have allowed himself to be lured in such sin. such is the mystery of orthodoxy i guess. certainly such a gamble is reserved for the spiritually robust. for many, to committ murder would mean instant spiritual death.

[Fr Averky]

Matthew,

I have a general question. How many Orthodox monasteries are there in England? I am hoping to visit England next year on my way to Istanbul in the Fall, and if time permits, I would like to visit a few of them. Do you know what Orthodox churches there are in London? Thank you

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,
While desires of the flesh is a temptation for monks as for any one else, there are many other challenges to meet. One touching story is of a monk who was dying, and the brothers came in to ask forgiveness and spend some time with him. He had always been a wonderment to the monasteryh, he was very fat, excessive not only in eating, but in talking, and drinking as well. He never seemed to be serious, but was always happy-go-lucky. Sensing that there were those who were concerned for his salvation he said, "My dear brothers, it has been reavealed to me that despite all my weakness, Our Saviour has granted me salvation - and why? Because I never judged anyone!" With these words, he peacefully reposed. And for those who had judged him a great lesson was learned.

[Andonis]

i know it is important not to judge, but i somehow think that judging and accepting are two different things. for instance, i woundn't judge this monk, his choices are his to be made and for God to judge. at the same time i probably wouldn't accept his decisions, in terms of how they were affecting me. i don't judge killers, adulterers, or theifs. but i don't accept their behaviours and choose to have nothing to do with them. these monks are amazing. i know there is nothing i find more anoying than someone whom cannot withold from frivolous idle talk. i think there is a major difference between judging and just wanting to be as far away as possible from such people.

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,

We have had monks somewhat similar to the monk in the story, and despite their apparent foolishness, we were always aware that the person had a very good heart. We have one monk at the present time who is always polite, does every thing by the book, yet no one cares for him because he has a heart of ice and has a generally low opinion of his brothers. In a community, you have to adapt to living with many types of people. The point of the story is that despite his weaknesses, the monk loved God and his neighbor as himself, and for this, God forgae his many weaknesses and gave him salvation. Living one's life without judging others is quite a task! Staying as far away as you can from someone is indeed judging them.

Fr. A.

[Andonis]

Fr.A, i can definitely see clearly your point of view, and i hope God can forgive the fact that i judge. this has been a particular sore point for me for quite a while, for what is the point if somebody means well, yet cannot back it up with appropriate behaviour. Audous Huxley describes it in his Brave New World, whereby through a lack of insight of the world and of self, a well meaning person behaves as badly as an ill meaning person. i find this to be a common trait in many people i meet. i also find their behaviour disruptive to my own spititual progress.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Adonis,

I can really sympathize with what you are saying. I struggle every day with the judging of others, yet do I continue to pray to God that one day He will grant me the gift of that particular virtue. I do believe, and I have seen it, that people can in time change for the better. If one can continue to mean well, and keep on struggling, he will in time begin to do well. All of this needs prayer, practice, and a lot of patience.

[Thomas Garland]

Dear Fr Averky,

I don't think Matthew has had time to answer your query about monasteries & churches in Britain, but perhaps the quickest answer is to point you at the Directory of Parishes (taken from the annual Directory of the Orthodox Fellowship of St John the Baptist) that you can find on-line on the website of a ROCOR parish in Eastern England (http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk) - you'll have to go to the homepage and find the link in the index at right, as I don't seem to be able to link directly to the Directory page. This has monasteries as well as parishes (all jurisdictions).

The most celebrated monastery, and the only one I know from personal experience, is at Tolleshunt Knights, Essex (near Colchester, at the bottom of the 'bulge' on the right of England). This was founded by the principle disciple of St Silouan the Athonite and is a dual male-female community, under the Ecumenical Patriarchate (but uses both Greek and Slavonic, as well as English). The Hegumen is Archimandrite Kyril and the guestmaster is Archimandrite Symeon. You really must visit if you can while in London - it must be about an hour's journey from central London.

ROCOR has a convent in NW London, and have recently built a beautiful new church in Gunnersbury, in W London - blue onion dome and all! As a member of the Moscow jurisdiction, however, I am bound to put in a word for our cathedral in Ennismore Gardens, Knightsbridge (not far from the famous Harrods department store!). Perhaps you will be lucky enough to catch Metropolitan Antony (Bloom), though he will be retiring at Pascha!

Hope this is useful, and my prayers for a safe, enjoyable and profitable journey when you come to make it.

Thomas

[Fr Averky]

Dear Thomas,

Thank you for the helpful information. I would be most pleased to visit your cathedral. God bless you, and may you have spiritually beneficial Great Lent

Fr. A.

[George Hawkins]

Father bless,

Dear Father Averky, I have very much enjoyed reading your posts, and have gained much from your insights, thanks be to God. I was wondering if you know how to go about with corresponding with monks on Mt. Athos (or indeed if anyone else knows).
Pray for me, a sinner,

Kissing your right hand,
George

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ George,

Thank you for your kindness, but all good is from God. In regards to your enquiry, there are many links to Mt. Athos, one, I believe, is available from this website. At any rate, I think that if you look at your search engine, Google, or perhaps AlltheWeb.com, and look for "Mt. Athos," I think you will find several links. It is interesting to note that in 1987, which was the one and only time I was on Mt. Athos, the Greek government had directed that all monasteries put in telephone lines. One old monk said sorrowfully to me, "There is a prophecy of St. Nilus of the Holy Mountain that one day a web , like a spider's would go out to all parts of the Holy Mountain." God help you with your search; I am sure there is much online.

In Christ,
Father A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear George,

Here is some information for you: I looked, and Google lists 7050 sites pertaining to Mt. Athos and Greece, and AlltheWeb.com has at least 1000, most likely much more, with 109 interactive pictures. Let me know if you have found what you wanted, if you don't, I'll make a few phone calls...

Yours in christ,
Fr. A.

[Richard McBride]

For Father Averky's consideration:

CHURCH OF THE HOLY TRANSFIGURATION
Situated at Great Walsingham

This is the Church of the local Orthodox Parish within the Diocese of Sourozh (Moscow Patriarchate) under its Bishop Metropolitan Anthony. Services in English are celebrated here at weekends as shown and occasionally on weekdays for certain Feasts.

http://www.jchristmas.fsnet.co.uk/orthodox.htm

But the purpose for a trip that far (near Norfolk), is to visit:

The Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham
http://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk/

This shrine is a short distance away in Li'l Walsingham.
It is Roman and Anglican jurisdiction, but there is a Pan Orthodox Shrine tucked away in the building; for infromation on it, contact:

Father Patrick Radley on
e-mail him at patrick.radley@sourozh.org

Inspite of being RC/Angl'n, you will not become apostate for visiting here; This site was recommended to Father Michael and myself by Bishop Basil, Antiochian Pat'y., after he himself had toured sites containing English Orthodox Saints.

The story of Walsingham, as I recall it, is that a man was asked, by the Theotokos herself, to build a replica of her Mary & Joseph house from Nazareth; this was back in the 1930's. The man built it, and a spring of miraculous waters began flowing at the site. That original building is now covered by a larger structure with several chapels in it; one tiny chapel is given to the Orthodox.

I had several experiences of the Theotokos while visiting there; one of them was the most powerful I have ever experienced.

The Shrine has a large number of cells for visitors, but they receive large groups from time to time. One should reserve a cell ahead of time, for spending the night is recommended. It is a day's train trip from London one way -- plus catching a taxi from the train station (about 8 miles away).

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

Thank you for the information. I really appreciate your taking the time to give me even directions; I don't know how long I will be in England - it all depends on my health, which generally is not good at all. I have always been interested in religious sites, no matter what faith. Whenever I go to NYC, I always try to visit St. Patrick's, while in St. Louis, the magnificent Byzantime Roman Catholic cathedral, when in Washington,D.C., Washington Cathedral, and even the rather dreary Basilica of the Immaculate Conception. Once, while in Washington D.C., I by chance stumbled upon the American headquartes of the Franciscans whose work is in Jerusalem and the Holy Land, and with whom they literally do battle with the Greek Orthodox Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre. It was rather sad, for the buildings had been expanded in the mid-60's to hold four or five hundred men, but now there were only about forty. They received me most graciously invited me to the refectory to have some lemonade and cookies, and showed me their beautiful exact replicas of Calvary, the Stone of Anointing, and other holy sites. With great sadness they told me how, until Vatican II, thousands of people came in buses from all over the country, but by the mid- 80's when I was there, almost no one. When I visit these sites, I remember that I am a priest of the Orthodox church, and must myself be gracious and loving to those who have shown me hospitality. Again, thank you, Richard.

Fr. A.

[George Hawkins]

Dear Fr. Averky,

Thank you for the information. I will try the search engines, and see what I can come up with. if it is God's will, I will come across the information I am after.

With love in Christ,
George

[George Hawkins]

Dear Fr Averky,

I will have a look through the various sites over the next few weekends - it could take a while! I will let you know how I get on...

With love in Christ
George

[Thomas Garland]

Dear Fr A,

I am indebted to Richard for mentioning the Shrine of the Mother of God of Walsingham. I forebore to mention it in my previous post, as it is admittedly not too easy to get to from London, but also as it would set me off one of my favourite subjects!

If you do have time in your visit to England, please do try and get to Walsingham, as it is truly a very holy place.

My Anglican parish priest when I was a child, Fr Derrick Lingwood, was one of the principal characters in the restoration of the Shrine in the 20's & 30's. He was apparently awarded the Medal of St Vladimir by the Russian Church in Exile (as it then was) for his support of the Orthodox presence in Walsingham. I can remember an ikon of the Mother of God of Walsingham being installed in our Lady Chapel long before ikons became fashionable in Western churches, and perhaps this indirect contact with Orthodoxy led many years later to my own reception into the Church - certainly, Fr Lingwood was responsible for whatever faith I have had throughout those years.

I last visited Walsingham about 3 years ago, as I was preparing for reception into Orthodoxy, and spent much time in all three of the Orthodox churches there, but I found particular support before the ikon of the Mother of God of Walsingham in the tiny Orthodox chapel within the Anglican Shrine church. As Richard has said, there is a very real feeling of the presence of the Mother of God in Walsingham.

Just to 'correct'Richard's account of the history of the Shrine - in fact, Walsingham was one of the great pilgrimage sites of the whole of Europe in the Middle Ages until it was destroyed in the Reformation. In 1061, the local 'lady of the manor' had a vision that led her to construct a replica of the Holy House in the village. Before long, the Shrine had developed a particular focus on the Mother of God and her image within the Holy House. All this was destroyed in the Reformation, but, by the end of the 19th century, Roman Catholics in Kings Lynn (about 20 miles away) were reviving the cult. However, it was in the 1920's and 30's that the Anglican vicar of Walsingham, Fr Patten, restored devotion to the Mother of God in the village itself: he had an image of the Mother of God carved and placed in his parish church, but later built a Shrine Church with a Holy House, and this is now the focus for the devotion. The Roman Catholics also have a Shrine, a little outside the village, but nowadays all denominations co-exist peacefully, not to say co-operatively!

Though disused for regular services for some time, I am glad to report that Fr Philip Steer has now brought the chapel back into use (Fr Patrick, mentioned in Richard's post, is the parish priest, but Fr Philip has been specifically charged with the Shrine chapel).

As Richard says, it is possible, but rather inconvenient, to get to Walsingham from London and back in a day, but probably more practical to stay there. If you can make time in your visit to the UK, do try and get there.

Thomas

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Fr Averky and others,

I've only just returned from a rather extended time back on Athos, hence my silence in responding to your original question on monasteries in the United Kingdom. But I am content to see that you've received rather extensive replies from others.

Regarding communications with the Holy Mountain (mentioned by others), I would recommend the Mount Athos Area (http://www.monachos.net/monasticism/athos/index.shtml) on this website as a place to begin. It contains some substantial content in its own right; but also highlights the most important links on Athonite matters to be found on the internet -- a helpful means of narrowing down the 10,000 or so that one can find through search engines.

INXC, Matthew

[John Wilson]

Hey! you went by our house and didn't drop in for a cuppa? (I forgive you. I'm sure you had a very full schedule)

John.

[Marina Robb]

A directory of Churches in the UK is found here
http://www.hellenicbookservice.com/Theology/orthodox%20churches.htm

A list of those on -line here.
http://www.saintdemetrios.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/uk.htm
The best monastery to visit is the St. John the Baptist in Essex. It is only an hour from London by car or train. There are few other monasteries, but these tend to be hermitages rather than cenobia

[Robert Sean Clark]

I am interested in becoming a monk. I was looking to become a monk while I was Roman Catholic, and spent some time at two different monasteries I was interested in joining. I was in fact at the monastery that I ultimtately intended on joining when the struggle consumated concerning whether or not I would become Orthodox or not. (I became Orthodox).

I am now having a problem with becoming a monk in Orthodoxy. The monasteries that I have been exposed too are very loud, noisy, busy places. The Roman Catholic monasteries I stayed in were very quiet. It was great. The Carthusian order I wanted to join (where I knew I would become Orthodox) lived most of their lives in silent solitude...basically only coming out of their cells to pray the divine office with each other. The OCA monasteries I have been exposed too seem almost like they use monasticism as a means of being almost Protestant. In other words, it is as though the OCA monasteries figure..."we have all of this time on our hands, lets busy ourselves with every kind of outreach under heaven. The monks are noisy and there is no peace in those monasteries. This is also the case with the Greek monasticism I have been exposed too.

When I get the time, I would like to take retreats at both The Brotherhood of Saint Herman, as well as the monastery of St. Anthony in Arizona. My main priority is too look for a silent and relatively cloistered atmosphere. I understand that Orthodox monasticism has and will always practice hospitality. But I just don't want to be in a monastery where there are people playing tag and the monks feel burdened by a life of silence.

So this brings me to the point of my post. St. Herman's is in the Slavic tradition, and St. Anthony's is in the Greek tradition. I remember someone saying on one of these threads something along the lines of: "In Greek monasticism, one has to get a blessing for everything, in Russian monasticism it is assumed that a person is rational and can do some thinking for themselves and so has more freedom in the life". That is a pretty rough paraphrase, but I can't find the original quote so I couldn't post it. So my question is that I wonder if the person meant it as being pejorative against Greek monasticism. Also I am wondering if anyone knows of other monasteries in America where the monks dig on quietness.

[John M. Moreno]

Dear Robert,

I am the person who mentioned the difference between Russian and Greek monasticism. I in no way intended to say anything to lessen the Greek style of monasticism, but to point out a significant difference. The two Orthodox cultures have very different approaches to spirituality in general, but I will not go into it here.
Robert, silence is in the heart, and while Orthodox monasteries might seem busy or too worldly to you, their aim is quite different than that in Roman houses like the Cathusians or Camaldolese.

It is late, and we have long services here in my monastery, so I must retire right now, but I promise that I will get back to you. It seems to me that would be rarther difficult for you at any monastery if you have expectations as to what you wish. We go to a monastery to give up our will, weep for our sins, and to endure. A monastery is a place where war is taking place, and there is always the spiritual tension brought on by that on-going battle. When we enter a monastery, we have to keep it in mind that we have nothing to offer - it is the monastery that will offer us a place to struggle. A monastery does not have to meet our personal standards. Robert, to be is a monk is not only to take up your cross, but to crucify yourself -are you prepared for that?

If you are looking for an idyllic place of quiet, walking with your arms in your sleeves, head down, listening to the soft gurgle of the fountain in the center of the cloister rose garden, then you are looking for the wrong kind of place. Better for you to struggle in the world for awhile and become thoroughly grounded in your Orthodoxy before even thinking about joining any monastery. I will write more later, but you make contact me personally, or I will send you a private message when I have time. I will have been a member of my brotherhood here at Holy Trinity Monastery for 28 years on the 23rd of September, so I do have a little experience. I will be most pleased to be in contact with you, and will help you if I can. For starters, may I suggest that you begin to struggle to truly pray, to be humble, and to be patient. All three of those are rather difficult.

In Christ,

Hieromonk Averky

[Owen Jones]

Dear Robert,

Were I to become a monk, I would go to St. Michael's Skete in the high desert in New Mexico. I don't particularly like people, and I think I would despise a monastery with a lot of people. I know I would get along with the monk at St. Michael's. Basically two things go on there: praying and making candles. With only a couple of monks, there is no time for anything else. He has a web site, I believe. The head monk there is a kind of latter day Mary of Egypt.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen,
I agree with you, if one does not particularly like people, he should enter not a monastery - he can, but he will have a very difficult time of it. . Small monasteries are much worse, for a person who needs to be alone most of the time, because since all tasks have to be accomplished by a few, your brother is with you wherever you look

As we know from monastic history, those monks who were given a blessing to live by themselves did so after many years of living in a community.

If at first monk does not live in the company of others, he will have no opportunities to obtain virtues. We have an institutional potato peeling machine, which looks like a large washing machine without an adgitator. The inner section of the drum is rough metal, and when 50 or 60 potatoes are thrown in and the machine starts up, they bang up against each other and the rough walls of the drum. and water washes over them. In not so long a time, the skins are gone, and the potatoes come out white and smooth. So it is with the monastic, being treated roughly and washed with many tears.

Living in a community gives a person the chance to get rid of his rough edges. If we live in a place where we are allowed to keep all of the baggage we arrived with, then why did we come? The monastic life is, like St. Theodore the Studite says, " a slow martyrdom."

If it is the aim of the Christian to love God with his whole heart and his whole mind and his whole soul, and his neigbor as himself, why would a person enter a monastery because he does not like people? With students and worker , we have about 80 people here, but there are many hours of the day which are very quiet. There are some who are very lonely.

Two years ago, we had a man visit several times who said he wanted to be a monk. As with most monasteries, a visitor is a "guest"
for three days, then he must work. This man came several times for two-three days, no longer. When he was given a blessing to come and try out our life, he lasted only two weeks. When asked why he was leaving, he said, "Each time I came here, I was so at peace because the corridors of the monastic residence was absolutely silent, and I could read an pray all day. But when I arrived here, I had to set the tables in the refectory, slice bread, and I had to speak to people that I did not care for." Fr. George, his spiritual father said to him, "did it not occur to you that the reason that the corridors were empty and silent is because all of the fathers were out working?"

The man did not understand that in fleeing the world, we cannot flee from ourselves. It is within the walls of perfect freedom -Holy Obedience - that we see who we really are ,with all our pride, self will, puffed up opinions of ourselves, our intellect and our worth. We Have to meet the passions head-on or perish. We have to understand what it really is like to love our brother, and as we love ourselves. We have to to be obedient to our Spiritual Father in all things, entrusting our will and our soul to him.

When my Spiritual Father, who is a bishop, was made an Archbishop and sent far away, I had to seek another one here. One man is my God son and friend, so that was out of the question. So. I had to choose an Archimandrite around my own age with whom I have shared a general dislike ever since I arrived here. We both sighed, and knew we had to make the best of it. At first, it was terrible for me. Now, I am so grateful to him: because he did not "like" me, he never indulged my weaknesses, but was very firm and strict with me. I can tell you, he has saved me by his prayers, his wisdom, and his love. He is very busy, and sometimes I do not see or speak to him but once in a month, but he is always aware of my life, and I know that when I need to speak to him, he is always there for me.

You can read every book you can get your hands on about monasticism, you can quote the Fathers to your heart's content, and you can even live in a monastery for years and years, but until you bvecome a novice, proclaiming yourself an enemy of the Devil, firmly desiring to take the place of one of his demons who lost Heaven, then you will never know or. understand our life.

Owen, you like people more than you might think -I can pick up by your postings that you have had many sorrows, but you love God, you are struggling to save your soul, and you care for others. sometimes you play the part of the "cynic,' but I know that you have placed much hope in God. Just think Owen, you might make a very good monk yourself!

I see that you have struggles that you have to deal with every day, and I also have many. For this I love you and pray for you, and try in my own small way to help you carry your cross by saying one prayer rope for you daily.. God bless you Owen.

Love in Christ,

Hieromonk Averky

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr.

Thanks for your prayers.

I think what typically happens at St. Michael's Skete in New Mexico is that people come there wanting to be a monk with romantic ideas of being a semi-solitary in the desert, and, as you say, the familiarity breeds contempt, and they leave for a larger monastery. Which, in American terms, means maybe ten monks. An American Lavra has fifteen monks, if I'm not mistaken.

At any rate, it's not a bad place to go for someone at least investigating the monastic discipline. I had a very interesting experience there with my son who was at the time about nine.

I had rented a four wheel drive vehicle, which you pretty much need to get to the Skete, and the monk took us on a trip up a nearby forested mountain. I got us stuck in a snow drift and we couldn't get out. We had to hike down the mountain about 20 miles after dark. We arrived at an escarpment overlooking the skete at about midnight, but there was no moon, and we would have killed ourselves trying to find the trail. So we decided to camp for the night. By this time it was freezing (literally) and the coyotes were whooping it up all around us. The monk had with him two matches. We found some dry kindling but we had nothing to start it with other than the hundred dollars worth of crisp, new twenties in my pocket. The monk told me not to waste the money and he tried to start the fire with a match. It went out and he dropped the other match in the dark. He got real still and I'm starting to talk about how we need to hike another 20 miles to the nearest farm house down the mountain road behind us and he remained still and quiet. Then he reached down right to the spot of the match, and told me he had prayed to be able to find it. Then he agreed it was time to burn the money! We were able to keep from freezing until first light.

This story will appear in the New American Philokalia, coming out in March of 2005, published by Faber & Faber.

[Fr Averky]

Owen, Owen-

There you go again, being negative. I know nothing about this skete, but to say that people leave because "the familiarity there breeds contempt" cannot possibly be the entire picture. It takes a special kind of person to live in a small community. How small is it anyway?

The story about your adventure with the monk in the snow is wonderful and amazing from every aspect! I especially like the idea of "having money to burn." I hope that I will be able to purchase a copy when it comes out.

Dear Owen, try to see the glass as half full instead of half empty, actually it is full, you know-you just don't want to accept it for some reason of your own. You have Christ, and your "cup runneth over. "

Take care, and thanks again for the story -it made my day!

Father Averky

[Robert Sean Clark]

Hieromonk Averky - Yeah, silence is in the heart of course Father Averky. But it helps if the monks around you aren't chattering about everything under heaven. I spent my time working in the Carthusian monastery. I also spent several weeks at a Franciscan friary called "The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate Conception". Unlike the Carthusians, these monks are totally cenobetic. Barely a moment of the day is spent without being around another monk. And yet, these monks were still...can you even believe it...oddly quiet. I find it odd that you took such an immediate offense at a person looking for a monastery where the monks stay quiet...like monks are encouraged to do. You have written about your offense at a person looking into Church history and the history of monasticism and spoke about such a person as being rather presumptuous. But so be it. I will continue to look to the past for paradigms. It was a huge factor in my deciding to become Orthodox...why should it not be a factor in looking for authentic monasticism?

Nor do I appreciate your apparent zeal to presume that you are some sort of internet Mary of Egypt and can e-read my thoughts, heart and mind. Before you seek to patronize me with further silly comments such as the following "If you are looking for an idyllic place of quiet, walking with your arms in your sleeves, head down, listening to the soft gurgle of the fountain in the center of the cloister rose garden, then you are looking for the wrong kind of place"; or "For starters, may I suggest that you begin to struggle to truly pray, to be humble, and to be patient. All three of those are rather difficult."

First of all, you have no idea how I have struggled or not, how I have prayed or not, or for that matter even how long I have been Orthodox unless of course you really can read hearts and minds like Mary of Egypt...then of course you do know these things. I loved being in the Carthusian monastery and the Franciscan one because of the quiet...and it was quiet (gasp) even where the monks were working. I would peel potatoes, set the table, do dishes, scrub the gunk off of shower curtains, wash toilets, scrub the tiles where the monks did most of the walking through the monastic enclosure, and do a whole lot of the other undesireable chores. I saw during those weeks just how busy my mind is. It actually became something of a torment to realize just how much "stuff" is whizzing about my hyper-intensive mind. In the Carthusian monastery I would chop wood for several hours a day just wanting to rip my skin off with frustration wondering if it was ever possible for my mind to slow down to better be able to contemplate God. But since you presume me to be some kind of a dumb, naive pleab who has absolutely no idea of what I need to be looking for, and who has no understanding whatsoever, I won't presume to share with you any more of the process of the desire to be a monk that has been with me for the last four years or so...I rather imagine that you would dismiss my own process of struggling as worthless anyway since you have already made the judgement that I have never struggled in the first place. I don't presume to know entirely what to expect or to look for since I have never "become a novice, proclaiming myself an enemy of the Devil, firmly desiring to take the place of one of his demons who lost Heaven." I don't presume to know what monasticism is all about even though I can "read every book I can get my hands on about monasticism, and can quote the Fathers to my heart's content."

But I can look to this material and see that yes, even in cenobetic living, silence is valued. But the couple of times I have asked Orthodox monks why silence is not valued in the present times like it was in the past...they basically respond like some sort of Vatican II apologist with a glib comment that "such a life is just not for the present day anymore". Quite frankly, you are also coming off as the same sort of an apologist.

So anyway Father, I know that I am coming across as pretty acid, cynical and sarcastic. And indeed it is deliberate. I have no virtues, I have developed nothing of God in my life. I know not if God will ever bless me with the ability to know Him at all. But I'll keep trying. I do know however that the most valuable times in my entire life were those times when I was able to be an a place that is devoted largely to silence and to keeping noise down to an absolute minimum. At the present time it is all I can do to keep my sanity. My life has become very severe, and I do not know what will become of it. But I can tell you this for sure. If God ever does give me grace to become a monk, it will not be in a noisy monastery where the monks chatter like at a women't sewing circle, or at a men's poker game complete with tons of drinking and everything,and where they seem to feel burdened by a life of silence. It honestly is totally baffling to me that heterodox Roman Catholicism seems to practice that tradition so much more fully, and that you seem almost condemnatory of someone seeking to live in a silent monastery. It is very bizarre to me. And if all you can do is offer patronizing, rude nonsense about how it is bad to want to be in a more silent atmosphere, then please don't respond anymore at all. And no,I don't desire to seek your wisdom given your judgements of me without evenknowing anyting about who I am.

I know that I am the new guy here, and I know that you are an old hand here. So I amautomatically the loser here. But at any rate...to the others

I will write more later, but you make contact me personally, or I will send you a private message when I have time.

[Robert Sean Clark]

Sorry about the wierd ending on that last post, I am at the library and my time ran out on my computer without me being able to edit the final ending. But at any rate, to the others who offered some friendly advice, thanks for the tips. I have a while to go as I need to pay off some festering debts before I can move on with my life anyway. But God willing, within the next couple of years I can make an extended retreat or two at a couple of different monasteries. It doesn't hurt to do my homework now though to find out which ones I would like to visit. So thanks again. I don't know if I will be welcome here anymore as I have spoken rather harshly to Father Averky. (Isn't he the moderator of the discussions?) Anyway, he didn't seem to fond of me right off the bat. But if that is the case then so be it. Thanks again then. Ciao.

In Christ:
Sean

[Fr Averky]

Dear Robert,

As I look at it, the answer I gave to Owen is pretty much what I would say to you as well.

Orthodoxy des not have the regularity and order of Western religious houses, and I would say, we prefer it that way. As in Orthodoxy in general, each person marches to the beat of his own drummer, thus in an Orthodox monastery, some, skip, others walk in procession, some simply walk, and some sometimes crawl or even on rare occasions, slither.

In other threads I have discussed Father Seraphim Rose, who had a spiritual calm about him at all times. Fr. Herman, in contrast, was always buzzing about, chatting. admonishing, preaching, and, yes, laughing, but Fr. Seraphim always kep his composure. Only once did I see him lose his calm. Living at the monastery was a young Mulatto boy whose mother had basically dumped him off when he was about 12, leaving him to God and the monastery''s care. He was lazy and indolent, and was always dropping and breaking everything -dishes, the shades to kerosene lamps, just about anything in his hands. One night, during the first week of Great Lent, we had all come out from the kliros to the center of the church to chant some verses. The boy, whose nickname was "Waga," ( don't ask me why ) was given the duty of holding the one candle needed to illuminate the large book we had brought out with us, and which was for the moment, the only light in the whole church. Fr. Seraphim began to chant in Slavonic in his melodic and beautiful voice, when all of a sudden, Waga dropped the candle, throwing us into complete darkness. After a moment of silence, Father Seraphim said quietly but firmly, "Waga, I ve had just about enough of you, and closing the book, hit him in the head with it! Waga let out a muffled "Ow!" and murmured an apology, while the rest of us could barely contain our laughter. After the service, he humbly asked forgiveness, and Fr. Seraphim who really was his father, gave him a tender hug, and asked him to at least try to be better.

Father Seraphim had a keen awareness of what a proper Orthodox Christian life should be, and he lived it. He was a man of incredible intellignece, yet was humble, prayerful and peaceful He never wasted time, and he never wasted words, If he should come upon us visitors as were working at an obedience and were talking, he would ask us in a quiet voice," Is what you are talking about good for your souls?" All too often it was not, and we woud fall into an ashamed silence. He would warmly bless us, leaving us with one of his favorite bits of advice, "It's later than you think!"

Robert, if you have read the lives of the Optina Elders, you can see that these holy and clairvoyant men lived their lives seeing thousands of people, coming from all over, bringing to them their woes, burdens, seeking their blessings and prayers. Consider the Elder Joseph, whose monastic cell was the women's waiting room! Only after the last woman had left, could he wearily lie down down on a bench to sleep a little. St. Seraphim of Sarov, after years of silence, was given an obedience to help others, and thousands received help from him.

In West Virginia there is a small community of the Russian Church Abroad -Hermitage of the Holy Cross. It is a metochion of this monastery, Holy Trinty Monastery. There is a total of 17 monks and novices, including three hieromonks. Father Alexey Young, of whom you might have heard, is a member of that brotherhood, and is now Hieromonk Ambrose. Fr. Seraphim is the superior, while Metropolitan Laurus, First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad is the abbot and Igumen George of this monastery is the spiritual father. The Fathers support themselves by making incense, making soap, and painting icons. Each monk lives in his own little house, which is about 12x14 feet, with a little porch on the front of it. Each brother has the option of having electricity or not. No one can visit another monk's house. Services start at 3:30 a.m. ending around 7:30 All services are in English and are chanted in ancient Znameny style When too many visitors began to show up for Sunday services, a parish was founded nearby and is doing quite well.

Holy Cross Hermitage derives its traditions from this monastery, Holy Trinity Monastery, which was founded by two monks who left from St. Tikhon's Monastery in PA in 1930 because the monastic life there was lacking. The first ruling Abbot was Archbishop Vitaly Maximenko, who had been an archimandrite at Pochaev Lavra in Ukraine. This monastery is renowned for its school of iconography and its small but very fine seminary. In two years we will celebrate 75 years and will be the oldest existing Orthodox monastery in North America.

Robert, I am sorry if my first words to you seemed sharp, but almost my first words were to you were that silence is in the heart. Take your time, ask for God's help, and if it is His Holy will, He will lead you to that place wherin you may struggle. God help you, and if I may in any way be of assistance to you, do not hesitate to ask.

May God richly bless you

Hieromonk Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Robert,

This entire message soewhow ended up in two different parts, someone telephoned me, and I must have hit something -I hope that you can make something out of it!

I was not aware of your response when I was writing to Owen. I in no way took offense at what you said, but wanted to point out that monasteries and the monastic life are rarely what we would think them to be. When I decscribed the monastery with the fountain and all, it is what so many people imagine our life to be: it would be nice if it were, but it is not , and you yourself know that from your own experience. When I got here, I very quickly realized that a monastery was not what I had imagined it to be, for I had my own romantic idea of every monk being a saint, that I would reach perfection in a month or less, that I knew a great deal from all the books that I had read, and that I was totally prepared to live this life. I can tell you that I could have been easily voted "least likely to succeed." I have been here for almost 28 years, and it has been only the last two that I can say that I finally got a good grip on what I was doing and at last really realized that this place and no other is my place to struggle When I told you the things that I did, it was from my own early experience and my own realization over time how much I had to learn and am still learning

In our monastery, we rarely have time to sit and chatter, we are much reduced in size, and everyone has much to do. When we are not in church or at our obediences, we mostly do spiritual reading or pray. By the end of a long work day, we want to be alone, not to visit. On nice days in the Summer, I drive to a stream which has a beautiful small waterfall, and I take a small snack, sit and read and listen to the water and am very peaceful. Now and again, we will get together on a name's day or something like that. One hierodeacon with whom I work from time to time will spend an hour or so sharing a pot of tea and some laughs, for when we are togetheer, we both become dyslectic in our speech patterns and say really ridiculous things.

When I was younger, we had almost 50 monks, and we could go for walks or visit each other -we Americans would gather in one person's room on a Feast, one person would read about the feast to the rest of us, then we woulkd havd a "party" with soda, chips, and sometimes...ice cream! We have not done this in years and years.

Now, I and the monk with whom I came here and with whom I share the most, are lucky if we can spend a half hour together in a month.

Dear Robert, I don't know why you are so angry, but I hope that you will find peace where ever it will be best for you. For the third time, I ask your forgivenes for having offended and angered you so -it was not my intention. When I spoke of being patient, humble and praying, I meant that sometime we have to arms ourselves within a parish before we can jump into monasticism. Nor was I being arrogant when i spoke of not understanding our life until you are actually in it because it happens to be the truth. I am sure that the Carthusians and Franciscans with whom you spent time would confirm my words. I am not being haughtily elitist, and I am simply telling you that this life is very, very hard. I lay no claims to being clairvoyant, but I do have some experience as a priest and a monk and a confessor. After awhile, you do learn a lot about people, and to sympathize with them., and I do sympathize with you, but your are too angry with me to see it. Hopefully in time you will see that I am on your side.

I am not being dsimissive of your desire to be in place where there is quiet, I am just saying that that silence is hard won, and involves a lot of struggle and patience. It has taken me years to achieve the silence that I now hold to be precious. When we are silent, we have to face God, and ourselves, and sometimes that is no so comfortable. Have you noticed how people cannot stand to be in a palce taht is quiet - there has to be a radio or a stereo, or something blasting in the background, or people become even more nervous. Years ago, when I was secretary to the Bishop pf cleveland , a young contractor came to replace our bath tub and shower. When the bishop refused to allow him to play his portable radio while he was working, he quit after two days, and we had to scramble to find some one else. I really sympathize with you.

I do not in any way dismiss or reject you, but to the contrary, I am most sympathetic, for I rather feel that we might share more than you think. in some of life's experiences. I hope most sincerely that you will continue with this community -we all have our moments, but you will find that it is made up of sincere, intelligent, and compassionate people, who have come together, I firmly believe, by God's will to be a support and comfort to one another. I am quite ill, and sometimes am bound to my cell for days at a time, and I cannot tell you how much these people have helped me. Don't worry, we will stand by you, you are not alone.

With love in Christ,


Fatrher Averky

Now, this is the second part, but it really started out as the first part -excuse me, I' m feeling a little dizzy ( laughing at myself)

Of course I know nothing about your struggles, but I was a little taken aback by your attack on the monasteries you have visited, but I do have to beg your pardon, for I have never beren to these monasteries of which you speak.

I was raised a Roman Catholic, and our local seminary was at a very beautiful Benedictine Abbey, Mt. Angel in Oregon. Part of my seminary training was at St. John's Abbey in Collegeville, MN. One of my good friends, whom I met at St. Johm's is a monk at St. Andrew's Abbey in Valyermo, California. My oldest continuous friend is a Dominican friar with whom I got aqcuainted when he was at.St. Albert's Priory in Oakland, CA. I know Catholic monastic tradition very well, and will openly confess that I still have a nostalgic attachment to the lovely monastic services I attended at all of these places. Sunday afternoon vespers were always comforting to me, and now and again I put on a CD of Grgorian chant music, rmembering the peace and quiet of which you speak. Other than Greek history which you can read about on another thread, I do try to stay within my depth, but when I blunder, boy do I!

In my second post to you, I apologized, for I realized my words sounded sharp. but then it might have been because you right away seemed so furious with the Orthodox monks you have met. I cannot speak for them, and I do not condemn them, and I certainly do no in any way condemn the lives and piety of the Catholic monks and friars whith whom you had very good experiences, for I know first hand of what you speak. It is just that their world and our is so very differnet. It is in such orders as the Benedictines that one can see what it might have been like if the two parts of the ancient Church had not split in 1054, for we could have so much to offer to each other. Alas, much time has passed, and we have become very different. My first parish was in Milwaukee, WI, and a Franciscan friar once showed up for Saturday Vespers and we became good friends, and I spent many pleasant hours visitng his friary, which had a large seminary at the time, and I gave a talk on the Suffering Russian Church. One old friar would always chide me for being an apostate, but still treated me with great love.

Robert, you do not know me either, and I am most sorry if I offended you. There is nothing wrong at all in desiring a monastery which practices silence. We are not such a noisy lot here. We have an age span of people from 21 to 87, with every social, educational and spiritual level in between. We are all poor sinners, just doing the best we can on a daily basis. We have no one who claims to be an elder, for we are all just simple monks. Our abbot the Metropolitan, is 75, and entered the monastery in Carpatho Rus when he was 11 years old.

Back to the top, or rather, the middle ?

[Kit Davies]

Note: I am not Orthodox, except at heart!! I am RC and Anglo Welsh. Also I am just a bloke...

I have considerable experience of a Carthusian house (though obviously not as a Carthusian monk..I was just a visiting layman, and have moved on since, not least because it is bad manners to interfere in a Carthusian monastery).

One thing that amazed me about the Charterhouse at Parkminster (West Sussex, England) was... its JOYFUL NOISE.I have been in few noisier places in my life. Joyful activity.The banging and sawing of the constant maintenance needed. Actually you could swear that you remembered the monks whistling as they worked.They were not but the mental impression was...

And the Carthusian father I talked to was one of the most conversational people I have ever met.He almost wore me out with his talk. And he talked to me and came to see me constantly on my 24r hour retreat because he cared that I had a good time, that he had real concern. He was practising the perfection of Love.

The Carthusians themselves, in my experience (and this is not lightly said because I too am the silent type), are highly sceptical of this idea (from books) that they are a ethereal silent order. In fact silence is not part of their life in the sense of a rule at all, this is a mistaken notion. Solitude is their rule.But even then sensibly managed in their rhythm of solitude and church services. The silence springs from the solitude and - this is crucial - not the other way around.I do not think it is spiritually valid to say one searches for silence because it is some form of rejecting other people. We must of course Love our Neighbour, and not tell him to shut up and keep the noise down. Noise afer all indicates the need to be listened to, for help! (as in Help - The Beatles)

Carthusians are easily misunderstood and have suffered from several overly romanticised books. (The Stateside house is apparently harsher and stricter than the European ones incidentally).And the reason for this is that we hear about the Carthusians from the ex-Carthusians, on the whole.The ones who stay are wise enough to NOT chatter on.Would that Thomas Merton had found that path.
In the RC culture I have encountered much is made of Therese of Lisieux and her struggles not to irritate the annoying nuns with whom she was cloistered. That is though the real struggle

Robert Clark, I sympathise....I, and it is a peculiar story, and I am not going into it now, ache to be a monk in silence.I know about the chopping of wood and the self horror. Oh yes. I could have written what you did very easily. I think i did once. Or on many occasions.

I have had many blessings in life, but I am permanently locked in the noisiest and most stressful of professions, a senior production journalist. I am surrounded by a sinful hellish hubbub of nastiness.

And it will be like that forever.For me there is no escape and never can be.
And yet...

the people I have worked with have almost destroyed me at times, with the drinking, smoking, swearing, irreligion, sexual talk and general madness. At times I have been like them.i am them.

But...in this hubbub I HAVE been able to find glimmers of a monastery within myself.And God I believe has helped me. And from all accounts a monastery offers no sanctuary, merely a different type of means to the universal call to holiness.

I struggle to find a way to praise God sincerely in the hubbub.And at times, I do. And I dream, of onion domes and cloisters.And at times they becomes real spiritual realities and that I think is truly significant.

A last note: I know this is a predominantly US based forum and my admiration for the US is considerable. I guess you have a more abrasive shouty assertive sort of way, chaps. But it seems to me that some of you don't half put Father Averky in the dock sometimes with the most aggressive of tearings off. Phew! Crown Bleeding Court!
I think I would rather be in the office (secular that is not Divine..always happy to be in the latter) than face such gunfire. Hardly the stuff for such a forum, it seems to me.

In England, well in the RC if not the Anglican, we believe that priests and monks should be treated with respect, because that is an aspect of the respect for sanctity.

Let's hope the machine guns don't go for me now! Anyway, in latter years the iddiorhythmic nature of the Orthodox monks strikes me as a humane and effective thing. I have seven children (er, it is true). If they misbehave, I can denounce them as sinful and walk away.

The HARDER thing, is to stay with them and try to be patient, to understand, to lead...Very hard work indeed, but more holy (I hope)than silently shunning others, even though that might be more peaceful. In some ways.

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

I am on the journey to becoming a Orthodox Monk, first step was taken last year here in Australia.
I wonder how hard it will be for a Aussie to become a Orthodox Monk, who only speaks English!
When I tell people I am Orthodox, they say are you Greek? I say no, I am an Aussie! But I attend a Russian Orthodox Church who use English in some of there services. I am one of a growing number of Orthodox people here in Australia that want a Australian Orthodox Church. In other words English speaking. The children of our ethnic people need English, not Slavonic, I believe it is one of the contributing reasons in the decline of the congregations, plus the age of the members. But that is another subject. I just want some ideas from you out there in this big Orthodox world. All thoughts would be appreciated.

[Daniel Jeandet]

Brother Paul,

try to get hold of a book called "journey to the inner mountain" Its a bit strange, I didnt read it all because I felt it was a bit.. I wont write that word. anyway, it is worth reading at least in part for the story of a man who used to lecture at the university of ballarat. he became a monk and now lives in a cave in egypt.

the story of his conversion is very interesting and the author of this book spent alot of time with this man, now father Lazarus.

I didnt sleep last night and I am not using my brain properly as I type.

I know Father Patrick has a copy of this book.

I understand the desire for an aussie Church.

but pray that it is of God, Because if it is of men...

Australia has a very long way to go. Im not holding my breath.

if that sounds pesimistic, all I am saying is, know the utensils, but keep to the block.

my brain http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif its not keeping up. forgive me http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Daniel,

There a lot of books out there on the Monastic Life, I will see if I can get it, at least a loan of it.

An Australian Orthodox Church is needed in this country, not Russian, Serbian, Greek etc.

The key is-"Orthodox" not ethnic.

When I was young and a Roman Catholic our priests were Irish, it was very much a Irish Catholic Church.

We may not see a Australian Orthodox Church in our life time, but we will see the start of one.

I thank God for all the Ethnic Orthodox Churches here in Australia for bringing Orthodoxy to Australia, it is the foundation of a Australian Orthodox Church, just the same as the Irish Catholics brought out here in the early history of Australia.

Keep the Faith
Br Paul

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ, Brother Paul,

When I talk to our Australian seminarians, when speaking of the Russian community there, they say, "Father, you have to realize that our peole there are still in the 1960's or 1970' s when it comes to understanding the need for English in Divine Services." Fortunately, the youing ruling bishop, Archbishop Hilarion, is very missionary minded, and is slowly introducing the wider us of English in his diocese.


As to an "Australian"Orthodoxy, all I can personaly tell you as a American convert of many years, Father Herman of Platina, in an inspiring talk given to a small group of us in about 1974 said this:

In order for a convert to even get an inkling of Orthodox Ethos, he has to immerge himself in an Orthodox culture in order to so." When I came to my monastery, only five people spoke English, so I found myself in a situation, where I had to learn, and learn fast! I was already 30, not an easy age to learn two languages, an entirely new culture, and to have to enddure being regarded, as a "foreigner" in my own country. Now. almost 30 years later, am I glad that I did! I have learned the beauty of Slavonic and Russian, and prefer to serve in Slavonic, yet I have been given the great blessing of having traveled far and wide, serving in both languages. Once, when I was in Canada, I had to give the sermon on Sunday, and my Russian was not good at that time, so I gave it in English. Later, the priest called me and told me that he was so grateful, for the people realized that English was not so "bad" after all! That was many years ago, and now language is no problem.

Brother Paul, you have to ask yourself, what would constitute "Australian" Orthodoxy? From whence would its tradtons come? Would you use a dingreradoo rather than bells? What would your music sound like, or your vestments look like? who would be your liturgists and theologians? Would there be specific "ethnic" Australian practices that would be seen as desirable by the Universal Church? How many people would find the sounds of an "Aussie" accent music to their ears -would there be a rush to buy CDs? (Aussie accents are very popular for informercials here in the US, by the way ) In a recent book entitled, "Christianity, a Global Religion," the author poses quite a similar question. He points out that the largest number of adherents of the Church of England are in Africa, with some eighteen million members in one nation alone, while in Greast Britain, there are only about two percent who attend Church.

We have faced the same dilemna here in America, and there are dangers, some rather unexpected. Several years ago, an Evangelical group called the "Campus Crusade for Christ" "read" its way into Orthodoxy. It leaders, educated and seeking men, began to see that the True Church could be found in the Early church of the East, and that Eastern Orthodoxy was its historical inheritor.

They organized themselves along Orthodox lines with bishops- married, and priests, deacons, and so on. At first, they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and the Great Church had many reservations, and did not receive them. In time, they were received en masse by Metroplolitan Philip in a sincere missionary gesture, and twenty four of them were ordained priests and deacons at one Liturgy.

With usual American zeal, they got very organized, having a very good printing house, built very nice churches, especially that in Ben Lomand, Ca, but then problems began to arise. In some parishes, litugical irregularities began to appear, some had their own design for vestments, in most, non-serving clegy approached Holy Communion along with lay persons, and then, there were those who began to refuse to acknowledge the Mother of God as "Theotokos." ( This I was told by a Christian Palestinian, so my info is 2nd hand) A bishop was sent to reason with them, but they refused to comply and to be obedient. After a decent interval and after several appeals, almost all of those clergy were suspended and defrocked. I have been told that one of their leaders is have to said that "we Evangelical Orthodox will just have to teach these 'ethnics' what real Orthodoxy is all about!" Again, some might say that it is hearsay, but I did not hear it from only one person, but several reliable ones.


Br. Paul, in the U.S. we have more than 1500 men and women claiming to be "orthodox" bishops, many who proclaim that they are an "inclusive" church, accepting people no matter their private inclinations. One thing they like to emphasize is they are not "ethnic," but American, which means that they have their "right" to disregard the Sacred Canons and Traditions of the Orthodox Church -they have women bishops and priests. One group refers to its Holy Archbishop and Primate, Mother Jane of the Roses," or something like that.

Until it is God's Holy will, Brother Paul try to content yourself with the rich heritage that al of Orthodox culture has to offer in its many forms. I love to serve the Little Service of Supplication to the Theotokos and St. Nektarios in Byzantine melodies, I love Romanian icons on glass, I love Ukrainian pisanki and embroidery, and I love Russian Church music, vestments, architecture, and bells. I have some ancient Coptic icons and a very old Ethiopean Cross - while they are the works of non-Chalcedonians, I appeciate the beauty of their sacred art.

Brother Paul, take it from one who knows, you will have far more important struggles in your monastic life than that of language or culture. You can read and study looking for the grounds for an "Aussie Orthodoxy," but you might only cause yourself undeeded temptations. Be a good Monk, and that will please God and save your soul. Read the life of St. Anthonly the Roman of Novgorod. God took him on a rock to the Russion land in order for him to save himself. You already have a monster rock in Australia, and you have ther Rock of your Faith. Remember Brother Paul, it is not "the place to be," but the "to be."

I will be gone for two weeks, but after May 15, contact me privately, for there is more I can discuss with you if you wish. Rember, a monks gives up his will - in our prayer we say, "Thy will be done," and so it should be in all things. Be patient and pray. God bless you!

Hieromonk Averky

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. Averky,

Regarding your comments about an Orthodox ethos, I agree with Will Herberg, that Orthodoxy doesn't stand a chance in AMerica. It will never be more than a small, quaint oddity. There will always be a few Fr. Averky's out there who will be outside of the mainstream and want to be a part of this small, quaint oddity, but that's it. It will never take hold.

[Andonis]

dear Br Paul
i myself live in Australia, but being of Greek descent evidently belong to the Greek Orthodox church. interestingly, although i studied Greek throughout high school and speak it at home, i struggle to understand gospel readings and liturgies which are still sung in Koine. yet, i wouldn't change it for the world. what my mind cannot yet comprehend(i'm in the process of learning Koine), my heart is able to feel perfectly. even more interesting, many freinds of mine of other ethnic backgrounds, whom have converted to Orthodoxy in our parish also wouldn't have it any other way. they prefer to agonise over learning Koine Greek, and hence experience the liturgies in the richness of their tradition. an additional benefit for them, is all their efforts to learn and discover orthodoxy in a foreign language fosters for an even more intimate understanding and appreciation of the faith, because it takes them four or five times as long to get there.

in saying all this, i am in no way trying to denigrate Orthodoxy taking root in other cultures and languages. but what i do wish to empaphise is that cultures that have persevered through many centuries of persecution and martyrdom, to preserve Christs holy church, are definitely worth the time and dedication required in getting to know them. just as father Averky illustates in his example above, in the hands of the Greeks, the Russians and others, Orthodoxy survived virtually unscathed, fully intact whilst thousands of beleivers where massacred by enemies of the faith. yet this American evangelical group whom where relatively new to the orthodox faith, attempted to modify and upgrade it into a man serving religion, instead of a God serving one which is what Orthodoxy is all about.

i sincerely beleive that for those whom can find the time, and the strength to learn another language and culture already steeped in orthodoxy, their efforts will not go unrewarded. i realise in today's modern world this requires much sacrifice, but by the same token it could be an opportunity to loosen the noose with which modernity tries to choke any grain of spirituality we may have left.

your respectfully
Andonis

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Fr Averky,

First I will contact you privately. I am a Aussie with a German name!

I was wondering does Orthodoxy mean you have to be Russian, Greek, Serbian, American etc.

You mention the Orthodox Culture, does it mean Russian, Greek etc. etc. Can you learn the Orthodox Ethos with out being a Russian, Greek. Does it mean it is all in a big melting pot and is it like eating fish do we have to eat the meat and leave the bones??

One good thing about living in Austalia and we are some years behind America we can learn not to make the same mistakes as the Americans, well try to learn, doesn't always happen.

Does Orthodoxy have to have a ethnic flavour. I say a big NO to the so called "Aussie" way, beer and prawns on the barbie!!!! The Church over the centuries has evolved, the Missionary Fathers took the Faith to the different countries in Europe and the world and the culture of these people evolved into the Orthodox Faith. I guess the bottom line is to be able to walk into a Orthodox Church and understand what is being said with out trying to read and follow using a book. There are a lot of Children out there with Orthodox parents who do not understand what is being said or what is going on in the Church.

I will leave it at that for now, more to come in email Father.
Br Paul

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Dear Andonis,
Thank you for your words.

My childhood in the fifties was being raised as a Roman Catholic pre Vatican Council (Latin)being taught by Nuns in Catholic Schools with a Irish influence. Nothing in English until the late 60's. I was a Altar boy and had to learn latin to serve. People in the congregation tried to keep up with the Priest, it sounded like he was calling a race, I was told one day by a person who did'nt attend church. The day English was brought in was a breath of fresh air to the Church and it opened up the beauty to so many people. Yes people did say that it is not the same, it is not like going to Church any more, no Latin!!

Yes there is beauty in the Church, the prayers and Liturgy is so beautiful, but you need to understand what is being said and going on in the Church. If that means I have to learn Church Slavonic, so be it, it will be a battle, just like the Latin. I came in contact with the Orthodox Faith back in the 70's but didn't do any thing about it until about four years ago,so the second part of my life is now searching out the beauty of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition.

Keep the Faith.
Br Paul

[Owen Jones]

Andonis,

Who are the evangelicals to which you refer who have turned Orthodoxy into a man-serving religion?

[Fr Averky]

Dear Brother Paul,

My wonderful young Friend and Brother has answered you better than I, and as usual, in less words

I do not disagree with you in regards to language insofar as for some it might be easier. However, I can tell you, that having served or sung at many divine Services entirely in English, the average person's attention is rather short, and after awahile the brain gets a little tired, and comprehension becomes less.

As Adonis says, not all, perhaps very few understand Koine Greek, not all Russians fully understand Slavonic, but you might be surprised how many do, and how many can sing along, knowing many stichera, antiphons, and so on.

I laud your efforts to see an "Australian Orthodoxy," established, but I think that for it to take root, neither you nor I will be around to see it. For the first three hundred years of its existence, the Russian church accepted its bishops from Byzantium. There was Greek usage and spelling in Russian service books, later leading to what would be the "Old Believer Schism."

I can only ask you the question that I have asked my fellow Americans when they too have spoken about a purely "American" Orthodoxy" If you were able to have or found and entirely new Orthodoxy in this country, free of all "ethnic" influences, traditions and customs, what, I pray, would you replace it with? Another church here has attempted to do just that, but is finding that while it has moved to a "revised Julian Calendar," made fasting quite easy -for some, "relaxing" the fast means having chicken, because as St. Basil the Great says "chicken is not meat." Also, Roman Catholic priests can be received by "vesting," which is an extreme economia, rarely used in Orthodoxy, and in many parishes, general "confession" is the norm, where general absolutuion is given, with personal confession "optional." There are many pious clergy and lay people in this particular church, but the lessening of church discipline has had an effect on Church life. Sad to say, Br. Paul, this the extent of a truly "American" Orthodoxy. For example, in its earlier years, it was decided to have only the Primate have thye title of "archbishop," with all others being designated bishops. Also, traditional priestly awards and titles were done away with as being too 'ethnic,' and not having the equality called for here in America. The "ethnic' name of long-established parishes, such as Holy Virgin Protection ------ Orthodox Church," became simply "Holy Virgin Orthodox Church," and so on . I don't even know of any churches calling themselves "St.s Peter and Paul American Orthodox Church." slowly, there are have appeared Archbishops, archpriests, jewelled crosses and so on. While these might be externals, they make up part of the flavor of a church, otherwise, the church becomes flat and lifeless.

Let us hope, that as you say, Orthodox Australians can indeed learn from our mistakes. I would love to see such a thing take place, but take heed to what Adonis has to say. We will talk more.

Fr. Averky

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Dear Fr Averky,
Yes, I am open to all your thoughts.

I am amased to see the different Orthodox Churches in America and the priests with Roman Collars and no or little beards. This to me is a bit difficult to take, as small as it is.

I remember from my youth, the Irish infulence on the Roman Catholic Faith in Australia.

Faith truly gets down to the individual and how the individual approaches their personal faith.

I was brought up in a Roman Catholic School, I turned out different to a lot of my friends, I stuck to my faith and love of it. So really it is up to God and us. We are all given the opportunity and the gift, but how we deal with it is up to us. We are all called, but how we answer the call is up to us, freedom of choice. Thanks be to God.
The Roman Church through so much out of its tradition too, we need to learn from that too. Life is full of learning, we just need to observe and learn. That is one good thing about History and the study of it.

Yes, we need to learn from the Americanisation of the Orthodox Church- leave Hollywood where it is. But also beauty of Orthodoxy is in the eyes of the beholder. We all look at it differently I guess.

Br Paul

[George Hawkins]

Dear in Christ, Brother Paul,

Here in New Zealand, we have many different Orthodox Communities - some parishoners being recent immigrants, others have been here for a generation or two, while others are converts. At the moment, the situationin Auckland is to say the least, messy, especially with the Russian Church (of which I am a Parishoner). We have no permanent Priest at the moment, though Fr Mikhail Klebansky is with us over Pascha. He is such a kind and caring person, and we are truely blessed that he has come. The Serbian Church is strong with a very active Priest, the Greek Church is having problems, and I have heard that at the Antiochian Church the Priest is giving Holy Communion to all people, not just Orthodox who have confessed, but I can not confirm that, but how sad if true. There are a number of converts, and also as you say, children are growing up in an English speaking environment. At the moment, Father Sasha of the Serbian Church is having English language Liturgies on Saturdays, and it is a true blessing for many of us, indeed, for much of Passion Week, he had English language services. However like he said, it is important for us not only to have a native English speaking Priest, but also a New Zealand born Priest who knows the culture and mind-set and way of life here. God willing that will eventually come to pass, and surely in Australia too. Maybe one day, if it is God's will, you yourself may be ordained.

May God's blessings always be with you,
In Christ,
George

[John Wilson]

Christos Anesti (Christ is Risen)

Brother Paul,
may I ask where abouts you are situated in Australia. I lived for some time near Campbeltown, south west of Sydney and recently learned from a nun here in Greece that there is a Russian Orthodox monastery nearby. She and her family used to visit there often when they lived in the Campbeltown region. She did not tell me if their services were in English or Slavic, but seeing as her family are Greek I imagine that there is a possibility of English being used. Let me know if you are interested in more details so I can ask her or put you in touch with her.

John.

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

CHRIST IS RISEN!
Dear George,

There seems to be some similarity between our two countries and the Orthodox Church. I presume your Church is a ROCA Church. I know the Archbishop is trying to have English in their services, but there is oppostion, I know some Churches have English on Saturdays once a month.

The City I live in has two Russian Churches, one ROCA and the other under Moscow Patriarchate, so sad. One of the reasons for the split was the lack of English. The Moscow Patriarchate is a Bi-lingal church. At the moment does'nt have a Priest yet, one is on his way from Moscow as we speak. I am assisting in this Parish until he arrives. I am not surprised to hear about the Antiochian Priest doing what he did, this is not unusual for them.

I agree with you, in the need for a New Zealand born Priest, who understands the culture of the New Zealand people. Like wise in Australia, but not to lose the tradition of the Orthodox Church. The Culture of those people who brought the Orthodox Faith to our countries should be preserved,we should not make the mistake of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Bi-lingual services are fine, at the Parish I work in depending on the congregation number of English speaking to Russian will dictate on the amount of language used.

Well, God willing one day I will be ordained and can assist in a English speaking parish.
Please keep me in your prayers as I will for you.

Br Paul

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

CHRIST IS RISEN!
Dear John,

I am in Newcastle at the moment,assisting in a Parish. My Monastery is near Adelaide S.A. Yes, I know of that Monastery, I have visited there a couple of years ago, it is a ROCA Monastery. There is also a Priest/Monk in the area too. To my knowledge they use Slavonic. There is also a Retirement Village next door too. It was good to hear from you. Thanks for the info.

Br Paul

[George Hawkins]

Christ is Risen!
Dear in Christ, Brother Paul.

Yes, the Russian Church I am a parishoner of is ROCOR. You are quite right about how we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater! Bilingual services are good to have, as people with all different language abilities and understandings can hear the Liturgy in their own tongue. A few weeks back, before the Fast, Fr Mikhail Boykov came to Auckland, with the Akhtyr icon of the Theotokos, and on the Saturday he celebrated Liturgy in English. A lot of native English speakers were in attendance, but also a lot of Russians too. Thanks be to God most of the choir turned up, as at first I was very worried I was going to have to be both Reader and Choir all on my own, and without much sheet music either! We sang much of the liturgy in English, and other parts in Slavonic - like the Cherubic Hymn.

You are in my prayers, may God's blessings be with you.

Indeed He is Risen!

the sinful,
George

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Dear George,

Your Parish sounds very similar to the one I am working in at the moment. It is hard on the Parish when they don't have a permanent Priest. This Parish, was only having a Liturgy once a month, when Moscow took the Parish under its wing a Priest from Sydney comes up every two weeks, only on Saturdays (people are not happy with this). So when the New Priest arrives and they have regular services the Parish will blossum. It is a shame that the people think it is normal to have a Liturgy once a month, that is the stage they have got to now. Please God this attitude will change. I will leave it at that for now.

Br Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I’d like to add something about the need for English during the Orthodox services. I have experienced this problem and I’m sure there are many other people like me.

I was an adult when I came to Greece for the first time. My Greek was minimal when I first came here and I had great difficulty just communicating with people in common Greek – forget about Katharevousa (the official Greek that was used everywhere until a few years ago and is still used in Church services). I’ve mentioned before how the Internet has been a terrific help to me – I am able to download anything I need to know about the Orthodox religion in English. This has truly been a godsend. What has also helped me is an English/Greek version of the Sunday Liturgy. At first it was difficult trying to follow everything in two languages but after a time I found I no longer needed to look at the English version and that I could easily follow everything in Greek.

The beauty of the Greek language cannot be easily replaced by the English language, in my opinion.

A while ago a message was posted (I think I read it here at Monarchos.net) that everything should be in English because even the Greeks don’t understand the service in Greek. This is completely untrue. Katharevousa might be difficult for someone like me, but, up until about 10 years ago, it was the language that was taught in Greek schools and it is almost the same as common Greek – a comparison of Katharevousa and common Greek would be High German and Low German I think. For Greeks it is as easily understood as common Greek. In a previous message I also mentioned the fact that most of the church congregation don’t need books for the service – they seem to know everything by heart. For young Orthodox Greeks in Australia the best thing, in my opinion, would be to learn everything in English but to enjoy the service in Greek as an added blessing. The same applies to the other traditional languages that are used (I’ve never heard anything but English and Greek so I don’t have an opinion about these languages). The primary importance is to understand what is being said but that doesn’t mean getting rid of everything else.

Orthodoxy is not an ethnic “thing”. You don’t have to be Greek or Russian or anything else – you are just Orthodox. It’s sometimes easy for converts especially to feel uncomfortable about the external trappings of Orthodox priests but a friend who is a priest explained that wearing the black robe (rasso) means he doesn’t have to concern himself about his clothing and external appearance – as long as everything is clean and neat . He has more time to devote to more important matters.

Owen Jones’ comment : Regarding your comments about an Orthodox ethos, I agree with Will Herberg, that Orthodoxy doesn't stand a chance in AMerica. It will never be more than a small, quaint oddity. There will always be a few Fr. Averky's out there who will be outside of the mainstream and want to be a part of this small, quaint oddity, but that's it. It will never take hold.”

Is “taking hold” really important? Is it all about numbers? There’s an American evangelical satellite channel here that I’ve watched a couple of times - huge, huge audiences, all with their books open. Ministers sitting in lush, gold armchairs, or prancing around the stage – I use the word stage advisedly because most of these ministers are really giving a performance – even using different voices to emphasize the funny stories they use to hold their audience captive. I’m not being critical because I’m sure that they are sincere. But, can this sort of religious show be compared to the beauty and gravity of our liturgy? What does it matter if Orthodoxy never becomes popular in the US? I don’t think this should concern us.

[Marie Quirk]

I would like to agree with Euterpe Ganatsios. The first time I attended services at an Orthodox Church was in NYC where it was mostly in Greek with very little English. I then traveled to Greece and spent time in a monastery there where very little English was used in the services. I found that I much preferred the services in Greek regardless of my lack of knowledge of the language. It was only later, here in the US, that I finally heard an entire service in English. Somehow something seemed missing. I have also attended services with a mixture of Arabic, Greek and English which I found to be a nice middle ground. There just seems to be something about using languages other than English in lturgical services.

[Oana Vlad]

Dear all,

I`d like to bring a small contribution about the language of the liturgy. I followed the topic with a lot of interest and it provided me with a lot of insights.

In my opinion, there is no language more “appropriate” for the liturgy than the other. It`s only a matter of getting used to a certain language for the divine service. It`s a matter of tradition, of how a certain language penetrated into the consciousness of people. In Romania, where I live, there is no difference between the liturgical language and the usual language, such as it is in Greek. I heard Romanian in services since my childhood and I could for no reasons imagine how the liturgy would be like in a different language, or in archaic Romanian (in fact, it was Slavonic language that was used in the Romanian church for centuries, but now I can`t imagine a liturgy in Slavonic). In my opinion, still, it would be better for common people (not only the theologians or those who have a solid culture) to understand what is being said there. Many people, especially the young, say they don`t understand the services. If there were a language gap too, it would be even worse.

I know the topic is so vast and it brighs forth not only linguistic, but also cultural issues which are new to me since I live in an Orthodox country with a unified ethos and tradition. The differences are only slight from one region to the other. I had no term of comparison.This forum made me more aware of the global dimension of Orthodoxy.

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

I am glad to see some interest in the Question on the use of language in the Orthodox Church.

I remember many years ago when I was little in the R.C. Church every thing was in Latin, then in the 60's the local language came into the life of the Church. A lot of people did'nt like the change, which is not unusual to any change. Some comments were it does'nt seem like church any more because Latin was'nt used. Then I heard comments that when Latin was used around the world you could go to any RC church and you knew what was going on and it felt like you were at church??? When I was little, I found it boring, not knowing what was being said, I see that even now with the young people in Church when the Liturgy is said in Slavonic. I some times wonder would it make any difference what language is used, it is up to the individual and how they approach their worship. Understanding the spoken word is very important, it helps to become part of the worship. I remember back in the days of the Latin many people would be saying their Rosary, they did'nt understand the Latin, so they would pray the best way they could. It is lovely but sad. The Liturgy is such a beautiful prayer and we need to partake in it. But the bottom line is to pray, the raising of heart and mind to worship God. That is one thing I like about being a Monk. What ever we do, we raise our hearts and minds to worship God.

I agree so much about Orthodoxy is not ethnic, but I guess the problem is when you see and hear, I am "Greek Orthodox", or "Russian Orthodox" and so on. As I said before when I tell people I am Orthodox, people say are you Greek??? I reply NO I am Australian and Orthodox. So many people tie Orthodoxy to a Ethnic Culture. This is Sad.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Brother Paul, CHRIST IS RISEN!

At our monastery, we greet each with other with the Paschal greeting right up until the giving-up of the Feast.

In regards to Latin in the RC Church, it was indeed a unifying force, for as you said, people could travel any place in the world, and the services were the same in language, content, and form. Since Vatican II, a Catholic can go to several different parishes in his own vicinity and participate in almost completely different liturgies. The translations in English which came out of Vatican II are so pedestrian, that they seem to be an effort to "Dumb-down" the average person's abilities to understand that which is sacred. In fact, the sacredness and mystery of the past Roman mass is gone, the priest is not the celebrant, but a "president," who faces "The People of God," turning his back to the place where God would have been -on the high altar. In 1979, when visiting San Franciso, I went with a friend to see the Roman Catholic Cathedral. While standing in the back I picked up a liturgy book put out by the local diocese, and in the Creed, I read "I believe in Jesus Christ, a God-sent man..."

On the other hand, with slight differences given for local church practices, the Divine Services of the Universal Orthodox Church remain the same in text, form, and so on. Even using the New or Old calendar does not alter the services.
Brother Paul, I do not know if you speak Greek or Russian or Romanian, but for those of us who speak of the beauty of these languages, it is not just that they "sound" pretty, but that in English so very much is lost, because English can not really hit the mark completely when coming from a more ancient language. When I had been studying Church Slavonic for a year, we were given one of the dogmatics to translate as if it were being done for the first time. Using all of the Slavonic -Englsh dictionaries I could get my hands on, and a mammoth thesaurus, I labored for hours over the very few lines that make up the dogmatic. I found that I could come up with only a pale likeness of what the words really meant. It is like a soup with no salt and little flavor - it is nourishing, but there could be just that little touch to make it better. Commenting upon English in the services, Metropolitan Vitaly (Ustinov) said to a group of convert priests, "Alas dear Fathers, God did not produce a Milton or a Shakespeare to give English translations the rich expressions which Orthodox services so very much needed -let us hope that one of you will be inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so!" Brother Paul -there is something for you to do for all of us English speaking Orthyodox Christians!

I can agree with Effie, Marie, and Adonis, who has also spoken on this thread earlier, that the services devoid of Greek or Slavonic sound a little flat to those of us who have experienced in a positive fashion ancient languages. Both Greek and Slavonic services have verses with internal rhyming words, which are totally lost in translation, there is a certain, rythmn and sound-sense found in the Greek, for the vast majority of service were originally written in Greek, thus giving them their poetry. Slavonic, which is the closest in translation to the original Greek, shares that ability to produce sounds so melodius in themselves as to be spiritually pleasing -Since it is not possible to have the same such words rhyme in English, something is lost.

When all is said, if a person attends the Divine Services with his inclined towards the worship of God, desiring to stand in the presence of God on His throne surrounded by his Most Pure Mother, the Angels of God, and all the Saints of heaven,
then the language will not matter, for his soul will be fed with the beauty of the chant and the true theology of the verses. If a person is standing in church fuming because he does not understand every word - he gains nothing. We have a convert priest who many years ago came to visit me when I was living in Chicago as the bishop's secretary. The service was particularly beautiful, and the choir moved everyone present -except one. As we walked home, I said to him how lovely the services had been, and how my soul rejoiced in our Holy Orthodoxy. He turned crimson red, and said, "All I could think about during the entire service was 'How dare these people serve Orthodox services in a language that I do not understand in my own country! These forgeigners should all be sent back to wherever they came from - I remember nothing -nothing at
all!" I am sorry to tell you taht this man was ordained a priest seven or eight years ago, and cannot keep parishioners, his is still a tiny mission.

One last case in point: We have another pious woman who has a blessing to attend servies regularly at our monastery. Every Saturday night she comes with her entire library, a meneaon, a pslater, a Bible, texts for the service, her prayer book, a book of akathists, a small reading lamp, two or three candles and so on. She never looks up -the entire beauty of the service passes by, and she has her nose in a book, losing out of all the liturgical actions which make the Orthodox services so spiritually majestic.

All I can in the to you Brother Paul, is go to the services and pray, be inclined in prayer, and the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest. One of the Optina Elders says that "One must go to the Divine services, for just one "Lord Have Mercy," sung in Church has more value that all the services we could do at home. This is true, for the Early Fathers talks about how when they were in church, they felt as if they were in the very court of Heaven." Br. Paul, the church is heaven on eart.

Whenever people ask me who and what I am, I do not say I am Russian Orthodox, I say that I am a monk and priest of the Russian Orthodox church. Before that I used to say that I was a "member of the Russian Orthodox Church," which does say that I am a Russian.

Effie, do not worry about those that say Orthodoxy will never take hold -perhaps not as a purely American church, but Orthodoxy is quite alive and well and all the different groups are growing and doing very well. Under the guidance of Archbishop Demetrios, the Greek Archdiocese is growing spiritually. Father Ephraim's, monasteries, which now number about fourteen, are giving much to so very many people. All the churches are experiencing growth and are starting new parishes. Not all that long ago our Church had at one time only 17 parishes in the Western diocese, we now have 34 and two new missions. There are not that many Russians, but now with the New Immigration, we are again growing. Christ promised that He would be with us, and He will. The Russian Church Abroad is moving more positively towards the use of English, and in many Greek parishes, only about one third is in Greek. In OCA and Antiochean parishes, almost all parishes are totally in English. Brother Paul, it takes time, butit will come. I personally would have regrets if we ever lost the Slavonic - I prefer to serve in that beautiful language, but serve in my own language as a matter of principle.

As converts we must remember that we come with little to offer, but the Holy Orthodox Church, in Her possession of the fullness of the Truth, the Divine Scriptures, the Holy Canons, Sacred Tradition, the writings of the Fathers of the Church, and the lives of all the great martyrs and saints has everything to offer us, and we must humbly allow ourselves to be "spoon fed" with those riches, for we are but children in the Faith. The Church is not a "democracy," and we do not have the right to expect the Church to change in order to accomodate us - we have been led to the Church by the mercy of God -to change ourselves.

Our Saviour commanded His Apostles to go out and baptize all nations, and each people has its own part to add to the grandeur of the services of the Orthodox Church. Perhaps one day someone will compose a liturgy in Englsh that will be so beautiful, that the entire Church will make use of it. The spiritual potential is there-we don't have the time to waste complaining, but can and should on the other work towards the commond good
of the Body of Christ. As usual, I have gone one, but I have heard this discussion for almost thirty five years, and from just about every aspect. I see how how I have grown to love the beauty of all Orthodox divine Service -in any language.

With love in the Risen Christ,

Hieromonk Averky

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Fr Averky,

Since Vatican II there was so much thrown out of the RC Church not only the Latin or turning the altar around and not having a sanctuary, just reminded me of the Reformation and the many splits that occurred in the Church in Europe. The mass exodus of Priest and Religious.

No Father, I don't speak any other language other then English, I hope this may change in the years to come. But for the meantime I just enjoy what I can with English.

I agree there would be beauty in the other languages, if you understand, for the many people who don't understand, a lot of this beauty is lost.
I find beauty in Slavonic when sung, just like latin, but I don't know what is being said, the melody can up lift you.

I am glad you agree with me, when I said what frame of mind the person is when they are at worship. To be in the presence of the Divine Mystery-Liturgy.

Like you Father, I would not like to see the Slavonic language to go out of the Liturgy and the Prayer life of the Church, it would be a great loss.

Yes, I agree on the point that the Church is not a Democracy, but I have seen people rebel when the Bishop tries to bring English into the Liturgy, to have a Bi-lingual service. If English is used they walk out???? So you say "we have been led to the Church by the mercy of God - to change ourselves". Should this go both ways???

I find the Liturgy in English beautiful and up lifting- not in old English either, it was one of the reasons that attracted me to the Orthodox way. I know of a Priest/Monk who is translating the Liturgy and The Book of Hours in to English.He is doing a good job.

Well Father I hope I have thirty five years left in me to see and love the beauty of all Orthodox Divine Services - in any language.

Christ has risen indeed!
Br Paul

[George Hawkins]

Christ is Risen!

This is quite an interesting discussion for me in many ways, not the least of which is that I was Baptised into the Japanese Orthodox Church, and until returning to NZ some months ago, the only Liturgical language I had heard was Japanese, which I am fluent in. (I am very interested in language and language learning, and have studied several languages). The Japanese used in the Divine Services is not regular, spoken Japanese - it is Classical Japanese, and so it would be a bit like if a Liturgy in English was in Chaucerian English. For a native Japanese speaker it wouldn't take too long to get used to it, and understand, (and if they have a service book it would be pretty much straight away). Everyone studies Classical Japanese in Japan, so it is just a matter of getting used to it. As a foreign speaker of Japanese, it took a bit more effort, and things began to make sense over time.

Coming back to NZ, I naturally began to attend the Russian Church (as Orthodoxy came to Japan from Russia), and although I could not understand what was being said so well (my Russian is rudimentary, my Slavonic even less!), I have in no way found it frustrating or difficult having the Liturgy in another language. Now that the Serbian Church here has started having English Services, I have been attending those too, and the good thing about that is that it has broadened my understanding of the Liturgy, and I am able to know the Liturgy so much better, and now when in Church with the Liturgy in Slavonic, I find I need to rely on my English language prayer book less and less, and now am able to sing with the choir too.

As for English not being as suitable as older languages, I am not sure about that! All languages have their own beauty and expressiveness. However, the need for an excellent English translation is pressing. There are many out there, and some are much better than others, but it can be very much a case of luck of the draw if you are in the situation where you can only order from catalogues or over the internet without a chance to examine the translations in question.

Father Averky mentioned internal rhymes and rhythms in Greek and Slavonic. I am not sure it would be impossible to do this in English, after all, even though our language has changed drastically over time, in Old English (ie Pre Norman Conquest) this was a feature of English poems and sagas. While it would probably sound unusual to modern ears used to final syllabic rhyming, it could probably be done by someone who knows the original Languages well, knows the Liturgy intimately, and also has a gift for the English language. A tall order, but not necessarily impossible!

One final note, I don't remember the name of the person that set the hymns in Japanese to music, but he did a remarkable job, as Japanese words tend to be composed of many syllables, and so this necessitated a lot of musical juggling to get it just right, and the results are just amazing. The beauty of the singing and the words was one of the first things that God opened my heart to in Orthodoxy.

Indeed He is Risen!

[M. Rallis]

Christ is Risen!

Just two personal observations about the language of our church services.

At the chanter's stand in our parish we currently have a Hispanic-American convert, an Arab-American, a recent convert of Jewish ancestry, and a grandchild of refugees from Turkey at the beginning of the 20th century who were remnants of the Eastern Roman Empire who had preserved their faith under the Ottoman Turks. We chant in English and in Greek, we read in English and Greek, all depending on the composition of the faithful present at any given service, and their needs for understanding our reasonable service. Under the guidance of our Parish Priest, we attempt to facilitate the worship of the faithful, and whether English or Greek is being used, if it is used with humility, compunction, combined with the traditional Byzantine Ecclesiastical music of our Church, our prayers and our hearts are lifted up to God.

The current ethnic flavor to Orthodoxy in America is in my opinion at once a burden and possibly a protection. It is a burden to us who would wish all contact with the local Parish to be on a spiritual, worship level. But the truth of the matter is that much of Orthodoxy came to America to serve the needs of an immigrant population whose needs were both spiritual and cultural. The truth of the matter is also that even today, many would not be even peripherally involved with church life if there were not the ethnic aspect to parish life. So this would seem to be a burden that the Spirit would have us bear. The protective aspect would seem to me to be in relation to the burden of living in our current society here in America. This society is full of “freedom”, much of which is opposed to the life in Christ. To the extent that our ethnicity separates us from society, makes us feel different, especially in our worship, then it may protect us from conscious or sub-conscious assimilation and loss of our Orthodox Christian identity and lifestyle. Perhaps the Spirit has ordered things to be as they are today, in terms of liturgical language, for our protection.

[Richard McBride]

These words demand repeating:


"As converts we must remember that we come with little to offer, but the Holy Orthodox Church, in Her possession of the fullness of the Truth, the Divine Scriptures, the Holy Canons, Sacred Tradition, the writings of the Fathers of the Church, and the lives of all the great martyrs and saints has everything to offer us, and we must humbly allow ourselves to be "spoon fed" with those riches, for we are but children in the Faith. The Church is not a "democracy," and we do not have the right to expect the Church to change in order to accommodate us - we have been led to the Church by the mercy of God -to change ourselves."

It is the Paraclete speaking through Father Averky, and these words should be republished every other month or so. They should mean a great deal to every convert, but I am inclined to believe they would benefit those young people who are cradle Orthodox -- especially those from the wealthy industrial nations. Unlike Orthodox from the old Soviet Block, many cradle Western Orthodox seem to be losing their sense of what it means to be in The Church.
It seems they have too seldom worked to confirm the reason for their presence in the temple.

These are good words. Saint Gregory the Theologian, we beg you to pray for those who read them.

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

The Church is made up of human beings, some like change and adapt easily while others dig there heals in and wont change. The Holy Spirit is changing the Church all the time. You just have to look at the History of the Church since Our Lord walked this land. Look how the Jews treated the new group know as Christians, what did Saul do to them? The early Church wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised?

Yes we need to bend in the Wind of change,open to Change in His Church. Follow the directions of the Church and her Bishops.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ George,

I do not know to whom you refer, but I myself did not say that Englsih is "unsuitable" for use in Divine Services -God forbid, as an American I should say such a thing. My point is that some of the dynamics of older languages are lost in translation. And I heartily concede that perhaps some of the phrases whcih rhyme in Greek Slavonic, and as you tell us in Japanese, could be made to do so in English, but the meaning could not be sacrificed for poetry's sake. One of the beauties of English is that while not being so "romantic," it is quite practical, and there are no subtle nuances in tone or pitch or pronunciation as there are in many other languages. A month or so ago, on "Outlook," a very intersting programme on BBC International Radio, I heard an American journalist interviewing two Vietnamese- husband and wife, as these visited Vietnam for the first time in 30 years. When discussing the word which sounded like "Ga," they told her that there are over forty different ways to say these two syllables, each with a distinct meaning! Years ago , when I was new at serving in Slavonic, I put the accent on the wrong syllable, and instead of saying "our souls," I said, "our stranglings!" Another time, at the prayer at the foot of the ambo, I referred to God as the "Father of flowers," instead of the "Father of Lights." You cannot do this in English.

The Lord hears and graciously receives the prayers of those who love Him - in any language. We could go on forever, but the bottom line is that if we pray with all our hearts, God will hear us. Brother Paul, your latest words heartened me.

As to opposition to adding English to services -that too is an old battle, hard-won. As I pointed out to you, it is happening here. My gracious host, the priest with whom I am visiting, tells me at the recent Lenten retreat of the Western diocese of the Church Abroad, with a majority of the priests being Russians, all sessions were conducted entirely in Englsih. The local Bishop, Kyrill, is quite comfortable speaking, sermonizing, and liturgizing in Englsh. Even his holy predecessor Archbishop Anthony, attempted to serve in halting Englsh. When I was tonsured to Small Schema, my bishop, Archbishop Alypy, did almost the entire service in Englsh, and as a young hieromonk served in Englsh missions perhaps 40 years ago. "Orthodox Life," was being published regularly in Englsh when there must have been 10 converts in the entire Church Abroad in the late 50's. Metropolitan Laurus tells us how articles would be sent out all over the country and as far away as England to Englsh -speaking Russian university professors to be translated from Russian to English, and then the monks, most of whom could neither read nor write Englsh at the time painstakingly set the type and printed this small publication out of love for those who could speak only English. This also took place among the Greeks, and the Antiocheans. We Englsh -speaking converts all too often overlook the great efforts that have been made on our behalf.

Years ago, there was an Old Russian priest in the then Metropolia, now the OCA, who felt that he should start using Englsh. He would say things like "All ye cachycoomins depart, all ye cachy coomins ..and again,"Singing, shooting and proclaiming!" and the hardest to deal with was once when he turned and said most solemnly "Pis on you all!" We would smile, but how we Americans loved him for making an effort to make us convert visitors welcome to his Church!

Years ago, when I was first a member of the Orthodox Church, it was Archbishop Anthony of San Franciso's Name's Day. He made a point of inviting we few Americans to his home for a small reception. Perhaps fearing that we would not like the delicious Russian meat pies called "piroshki," when our small group entered and took his blessing, he dashed to the kitchen and returned with a large of tray, saying with such delight in his voice and love in his eyes, "Look, just for you -tuna fish sandwiches!" Tears came to our eyes as we saw how he wanted us to know that we too were a special part of his flock!

When I had first been ordained hierodeacon, I went to Platina to visit Fr. Seraphim Roses' grave, for he had been dead only a little over a month. I of course stopped to pay my repects to the venerable Archbishp and to ask his blessing to serve in his diocese. He lovingly did so, and then gave me a beautiful little New Testament bound in olive wood from Jerusalem. Then, he handed me a twenty dollar bill and said,"Here, Father, Averky, this is for Coca-Cola!" Sweet are my memories of the many in "strict, monarchistic," Church Outside of Russia who made my entry into the bosom of the Orhtodox Church like an entry into a large concerned family. Like Ruth, I have been willingly grafted onto vine. The much - suffering Russian people are now my People, and their God is my God.

Fr. Averky

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Well said Fr Averky, the Russians welcomed me into the Orthodox Church too.
Oh yes, also taught me to drink Vodka.
Br Paul

[Mark Warren Carlstedt]

Christ is risen!
The so-called "liturgical languages" were, at one time, the common spoken language of the people. Of course, Sts. Cyril & Methodius made the Slavonic alphabet for a people who were largely illiterate.

While I converted to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism nearly 2 decades ago, I converted to the Orthodox FAITH, not to any so-called "Orthodox Ethnicity." I am an English-speaking American and don't aspire to be anything else.

The Great Commission to go out and preach the Gospel to all nations and Baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost was given to us Orthodox and we must facilitate the fulfillment of this Commission, not place obstacles of language, or anything else in the way.

[Fr Averky]

Mr. Carlstedt,

I am not in your position to make the broad and weeping remark that there is "so-called" Orthodoxy ethnicity in America, for the Orthodox Church in the United States is not a local church, but has jurisdictions of almost all Orthodox churches -Greek, Russian, and so on. Even that Church which calls itself the "American" church is mainly composed of former Carpatho-Russian Uniates, brought back to Orthodoxy by the priest St. Alexis Toth, and which despite their attempts to show otherwise, have no Great Russian heritage, nor are they inheritors of the Imperial Russian Alaskan missions.

I can in no way disagree with you when you say that first you are "Orthodox," for what else can we as Americans really say? At the same time, however, whatever Orthodox church we might belong to in this country it is a fact that there is an "ethnic" aspect.

Of all those who convert ot Orthodoxy , it seems to me that it is the Englsih speaking converts who are the most concerned about language usage in Divine Services. I am only conjecturing but I think that part of the problem lies in the fact that we are a nation made up of all peoples - we have no identity of simply being French, or Italian, or German, Or Russian ,or Greek, and as such we do not have "national" traits or customs, or dances, foods or songs, and so forth. I have met many converts from all over the world who have visited our monastery, and while they joyfully recounted how they came to Orthodoxy, they also spoke to me about the beauty of their homeland's culture, and its particular religious exspressions. We Americans do not have the same experience, and coupled with our idea of American "superiority" in all things, the very idea of having to humble ourselves to "ethnic" or "foreign" cultures does not sit well with us. I am afraid that this statement might cause a storm of protest, but I emphasize that we converts need to humble ourselves.

This in no way makes us American converts somehow "less" Orthodox, it simply means that in Order to beecome Orthodox in this country, one will have to come into contact with the Orthodox culture of the Church to which he has joined himself. You cannot say, "I belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, but I do not follow any of those 'ethnic' practices of theirs." Well, maybe you don't like roast lamb or eat baklava, but your religious traditions, practices and spirituality will be that of the Greek Church -not that of the Bulgarian or Serbian churches. The approach to monasticism in the Greek Church is in some ways different than that in the Russian Church, as well as to how and by whom the Jesus Prayer is to be said. The OCA is a perfect example of this, for even though it has termed itself a local "Autocephalus" Church for thirty yearsis still very "Russian" in its approach. Bishop Tikhon of the Western diocese of the OCA often speaks of preserving the "Received Tradition" as given to the church in America by Russia.

And, Mark, there is nothing wrong with any of this. For myself, personally, I happily learned to speak Russian and to serve in Slavonic - many, many of our English-speaking clergy do not, and it is not required of them by our bishops to do so. That I do know these languages well enough for my use and for serving does not make me more Orthodox, it is just a personal choice. I don't understand why converts make such an issue of language. The Orthodox Church is the Ark of Salvation, and we are on it, and that is good enough for me.

One interesting aspect concerning Church Slavonic: It was the first time that the Great Church was to make a concession in regards to language, for new missions territories at first used Greek. For its first three hundred years, the Church of Russia humbly accepted Greek bishops, and there were Greek words, in religious texts. To this day, Moscow follows the typicon of the Great Church, while the Southern diocese follows Jerusalem. The people who spoke Slavonic indeed did not have a written language, but the language devised for them was not for conversational use, but solely for the worship of God. While Greek, Latin and Hebrew areby some listed as "sacred languages" employed in Judeo-Christian worship, Slavonic stands alone in that there are no ribald plays, stories or poems written in it. While other language forms were to evolve from Slavonic, it itself is a "dead" language, limited to worship

I warmly welcome you to our community. I pray that you will continue to add your knowledge and wisdom to ur forum, and I look forward to reading your postings in the future. God bless you mark, and please be assured of my prayers for you.

Sincerely yours,

Hieromonk Averky

[Fr Averky]

Mark,

The frst line should read "broad and sweeping," not weeping.

[George Hawkins]

Father Averky has made some very good points. It is all to easy to overlook the effort that has been made to translate the various services, books, texts into English. I confess that I hadn't really thought of that, and am humbled to think of the immense effort that has been made.
Fr Averky could well be right about English speaking converts being the ones who seem to wish for things to be done in their own language. I wonder if that is an English-speaking-people's cultural issue?!

The different Orthodox cultures are very interesting, of course the Japanese Church came about from Russian mission work (by St Nikolai of Japan), and there is definately that cultural influence in the Japanese Church as regards practice, and coming back to New Zealand, I felt more 'at home' in the Russian Church than in any other Orthodox Church. Of course the Japanese Church also has varius 'Japanesey' aspects to it - for example, it has long been a custom in Japan to offer prayers for children aged 3, 5 and 7 - and this is done in autumn, so also in the Japanese Orthodox Church, we have a special molieben for the children of the parish that have turned 3, 5 or 7 over the previous year at the appropriate time.
In the Russian Church here in Auckland on Palm Sunday, whilst some people had brought along pussywillow of their own to have blessed, the Church gave us all branches from various evergreen New Zealand trees.

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Christ is Risen!

Dear George,

We humans are a funny lot, we like to be comfortable. We don't like change, like old slippers, comfortable.

I am glad you had a good Easter.
Br Paul

[Mark Warren Carlstedt]

Christ is risen!
My Dear Fr. Averky, Father bless!

I don't know how much "knowledge and wisdom" I can add to this group. However, I am a reader in ROCOR and I have my experiences which may, or may not, be helpful.
I grew up RC in Northern NJ and attended 8 years of Catholic grade school and 2 years of Catholic HS. During that time the only references to the Orthodox were to characterize them as "dissidents" or "schismatics." I was born in '44, so I remember Vatican II well. I guess that you can call me a Vatican II dropout. When in the service (US Army, 1966-68), I went to confession & communion whem possible. Upon my return home from Vietnam in '68, I went to the RC church and heard an anti-war diatraub from the pulpit. I didn't recognize the services since Vatican II, with all of its excesses, really kicked-in here in the US while I was overseas. All the things that I was taught were unchangable changed overnight. I doubted my faith for several years. It was with fear and trepedation that I considered breaking with the "infallibility" of the Pope of Rome. Much happened in the intervening years, but, by the Grace of God, I found, or, more accurately, was shown the way of Orthodoxy at the end of my search.

We (my wife & I) spent 5 years in a small parish in SC where I was tonsured reader by Vladyka Haliron. We have been back "home" up north for almost 3 years now. Now I travel 2 hours to my parish where all services are in English with Russian melody used. The priest is a former Antiochean priest, so he serves Greek style with Greek style vestments.

The reason for my long-windedness is to explain that, especially as a reader, I find the services of the church extremely instructive. If they were in another language, all the instruction would be lost on me, so I truly appreciate hearing, singing and yes, reading in my own language. It brings me closer to our Savior and His Holy Mother and all the saints and I always learn something of some aspect of our Faith in her services.

By the way, I was born in Brooklyn in '44 and I think that there is a unique American culture as expressed in the music of the 40's & 50's, square dances, hot dogs, hamburgers and apple pie, among many others. Even though we misuse it many times, our uniquely American political expression is a model for the world. For God and country! I'm not ashamed to say that I love our flag.

I guess that's more than enough of my musings for now.

Thank you, Father, for your prayers and warm welcome. You will be in my prayers from now on.

Mark (for St. Mark of Ephesus)

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

This is a question. I have posted three times but never see my post am I dosomething wrong

[Owen Jones]

Dear Ronald,

You are far too embedded in the metaxy. Come back down to earth and the chat room will then begin to receive your posts.

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

My friends. Here is what I have been trying to say in the failed three messages. I think that as a convert I have come to the church yes as a supplicant, but also as an additional to the ancient faith. Many a recent convert is held as an honored martyr, a father of the church or a confessor. Like the parable of the labors in the field the last is treated the same as the first to be hired. The great commission does not depend on the subtilties of man's language. The phrases and the nuiance is of mans' making. The dogma even though sometimes complex, is merely man's expression of what Christ was and is, the Savior of the world. I love the argument that we msut hear our faith in a foreign tounge, what a mistake. We need to hear the word of God that we can understand it not merely feel it. What made Greel so great, or Slavonic? They are merely man's toungues. They are good for those who speak it but that is not a requirment of faith, if it is made so it is a man's rule. Christ said go to all nations. The bishops who haughtly require a certain language outside the society in which it is preached will be held accountable for denying the faith to many. Please open your hearts on this one, if the society speaks English, translate, if Wolfum translate. A souls is too important if lost to heresy or disbelief because of these manmade barriers. The world's greatest hope is Orthodoxy, do not hide it in this field of meaningless rules.

[Heather Morinelli]

Hello Fr Averky, Father Bless!

I'm new here. I am new to Orthodoxy (been in the "getting started stage" for about a year and a half now---there have been many obstacles to overcome--I'm ashamed of my dragging feet).

In regards to the language topic--

I attend a Greek Orthodox Church---I am starting to catch on to the key phrases, and can follow along on the Greek side of the Liturgy book. I've attended Liturgy at an English speaking church once or twice too, and for the Feast of the Annunciation went to a Greek monastery where the whole 6 hour vigil was in Greek (and no book to follow along in). I tell you, I came away just as fulfilled from each of these different services, even though I didn't understand every word in most. I try to pray before entering the Church that even though my ears don't understand, that my heart will---and I think it does.

What surprised me was when I became aware of the number of people who want their services in English, but who aren't willing to learn the Greek or Slavonic to further the cause. I personally think that there is much to be gained from learning ancient Greek and Slavonic--especially knowing that such important materials were originally written in these languages. I believe, (but I may be wrong) that in most cases it is very beneficial to be able to read a document in it's original language instead of having someone else translate it for you--lest there be something that's lost in that translation. I realise though, that this isn't for everybody.

I have a great desire to learn, first of all, Biblical Greek, and eventually Slavonic. Since the first time I attended the Greek Church and heard such a beautiful language, I've felt like I need to know it better. I just haven't wanted to do anything without first the blessing of a priest-monk. That's why it was only about 5 months ago that I started to fast, and about 3 months that I've started the Jesus Prayer + prostrations. Fr Averky, I realize that you don't know me at all---but I'm sure I'll eventually earn the title "frequest poster" under my name here---maybe then if it is well with you, you might give me the go-ahead to started studying Greek?

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts.
an unworthy sinner...heather

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Christ is Risen!

A long, long time ago the Bible was written in a language only understood by Monks and educated people of the upper class (I am talking about in the West mainly) It was written in Latin and Greek. Not every one could read or undestand this language.

People were not encouraged to read the Bible, it was left up to the Priest to talk to people about the Bible. Then the industrial revolution came, the Printing Press was invented. The Bible was translated into the language of the people. They could then read the Bible. The Bible was available to all. Language can be such a obstacle to knowledge. Why do we bother to translate at all, may be everyone should just learn and speak one language??? Why was the Greek translated to Slavonic??? Why did'nt the early Fathers, just say you should all learn Greek, we will not translate this language so you can understand??

We have been given the opportunity to read the Word and pray in our own language thanks to translators. So we should with the language we know and understand, learn to love the Word. Then if you desire to learn, Greek, Hebrew, Slavonic so be it.
Br Paul

[Br Paul]

Christ is Risen!
Fr Averky and to all,

I have been for some time now searching for on the Net, with no luck for a new copy of The Orthodox Profession Rites (Monastics) I came across a 1916 copy of "Monasticism in the Orthodox Churches" that was about to be put on the fire!! It is a little delicate and frail, but a treasured find never the less. So if I can be pointed in the right direction, I would appreciate it.

Br Paul

[Fr Averky]

Br. Paul,

Our monastery in West Virginia does all services in English (imagine that!), and when I return home, I will ask the spiritual father, Fr. George to make a copy, and I will send it to you. Are you to be tonsured soon?

Fr. Averky

[Br Paul]

Fr Averky,

Thank you Father, that would be nice.

Tonsured soon? Yes, but I don't know the date yet. God and the Abbot knows.

Br Paul

[guest]

If one is planning on entering a monastery, what should she tell inquirers, Orthodox and non-Orthodox?

Does anyone have any advice for an American ROCOR girl who's about to enter an all-Slavonic monastery?

I prefer to remain annonymous because people I know may be reading this, and I'm not sure I'm ready to share my plans with everyone.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear 'Guest',

You wrote:


If one is planning on entering a monastery, what should she tell inquirers, Orthodox and non-Orthodox?

Perhaps it would be helpful if you stated a bit more about the context. In what situation(s) would such discussions with 'inquirers' take place? Are these people you know? In what context do they inquire?

INXC, Matthew

(NB: If you would like to set up a registered account so as to have full access, new-message searches etc., please e-mail me. It is possible to have such an account while still retaining anonymity, if desired.)

[Daniel Jeandet]

If you can find it, there is a really great book just out, "Elder Paisios - epistles".

It has a really good part for people who want to become monastics, how to choose a good monastery etc. Lots of really inspired teachings, Ive read it about 5 times now, not that I am going into a monastery, it is not possible for me at this stage.

That doesnt really answer your question I know, but this book is so good I just want to tell everyone about it. I really love to hear of people who want to become monastics and leave the world for God. It really makes me feel joy.

This vain world is so sad and spun out, the poor people in it groan and weep because they have no light to light thier way. They try to live for this transient life in its stupid systems and get lost even within themselves all mixed up with the dictatorship of passions and worldliness.

I hope and pray you enter the monastery and quickly forget every joy of the worldly life and never ever look back but press forward and take the Kingdom violently like a good servant who learns how to fight and then destroys all the evils inside the heart so Christ can live there, where he always wants to be.

Glory to God and thanks to the Angels who war alongside the humans for the sake of Jesus.

I hope many more young people become monastics to show some of the sad older generation of the Church what its all about and where the real battle lies and the real knowledge is hidden.

[R.J.G.]

Okay, I, the guest, registered and switched my profile so my name doesn't appear. I'm always cautious about giving out info over the net.

Thanks for your words of encouragement, Daniel!

[Bob L.]

How would I know if I should be a monk? I was baptized about 18 months ago and for at least a year I have been wishing I could be a monk. Can someone give me some advice to help me know if that is a silly idea or an idea that is premature considering my spiritual immaturity? I can give more information about myself it that is helpful. I am 44 years old and no children or wife - just a cat that I would hate to leave. This question has been bothering me and making it hard to plan my life.

[Father David Moser]

Bob,

The best thing to do is to begin visiting monasteries and staying for a week or a month. You can live along with the monks there, participate in the life of the monastery and see by experience what should work for you.

Fr David

[Bob L.]

Thanks, Fr. David, the thread has some very useful information. I get depressed easily, so monasticism is probably not realistic for me. I'll see if I can make some progress some other way.

[Father David Moser]

I get depressed easily, so monasticism is probably not realistic for me. I'll see if I can make some progress some other way.

I don't know that depression is something that should keep you from monastic life. In fact, depression may be an aidto monastic life. I have a former spiritual son who is living in monastery, trying his vocation. He has experienced some major changes in his life that threw him into some fairly significant depression. Going through this difficult period has not been the issue, but rather it has been something that has helped solidify his monastic vocation and has positively shaped his monastic rule.

Fr David Moser

[Albion]

It's ironic that I came across this thread today, some seven years after it was begun. I have long felt drawn to the monastic life, but never so strongly as to pursue it, and have been thinking about it quite a bit again recently. I am now nearly 60, (sadly) separated from my wife, and my children are nearly grown. Four more years of seeing to it that their studies are paid for, and I will be "free" to consider my future. What can any of you tell me about "late vocations" in Orthodoxy? I know that in centuries past, I think in the East as well as the West, it was not uncommon for widows or widowers to withdraw from the world and enter a monastic community. Perhaps I am too old a dog to teach new tricks, but I would like to be able to consider this as an option.

[Ryan]

Albion- I met a married couple, your age or possibly older, who are entering monasticism. They had been in a period of discernment- living around a monastery, helping to tidy things up- for several months when I met them. It's certainly possible. Many saints entered monasticism this way. Find an abbot who can discuss this with you.

[Bob L.]

Fr. David, what you say is probably correct about depression being useful sometimes. I'll order the book by Elder Paisios. I think I will just not worry about my future too much at this point, because it causes me stress. Maybe God wants me to be a monk, but if I am too stupid or lazy to follow that calling then it probably doesn't matter in the long run. Maybe we will all be monks after we die.

[Father David Moser]

Fr. David, what you say is probably correct about depression being useful sometimes. ... I think I will just not worry about my future too much at this point, because it causes me stress.

Back in the day when I used to be a therapist, one of the things that stood out for me was the effect of external structure on the severity of symptoms. Take a person who is severly depessed, psychotic, manic, etc and put them in the hospital and almost instantly their symptoms rachet down a couple of notches even before meds. When the same person is released from the hospital after stabilizing and returning to their baseline functioning - they experience an almost immediate dip in functioning as soon as the external structure of hospital life is removed.

Monastic life is all about structure and routine. Everything in the day proceeds according to a regular rhythm dictated by the divine services. Obediences are fulfilled and the schedule is essentially unchanging. External structure is paramount. This external structure allows the inner life to flourish for it is freed from such mudane things as paying the bills, maintaining the household, deciding what to do next and worrying about the future and such. The soul, when freed from external stress then engages more intensely with the internal life of prayer and communion with God such that even the mundane daily obediences are the means of spiritual growth.

So still, go to the monastery. Visit for a while. See what life is like.

As for whether God wants you to be a monk - I think it is more appropriate to say that God wants you to be saved and He will provide you for the means to work out your salvation in this life. Monasticism is one of the means that God is offering for you to work out your salvation. Whether you choose to follow that path or the path of married life in the world (I do not recommend living as a celibate single person in the world - it can be done but it is a difficult path) is not important. What is important is that you work out your salvation.

Fr David Moser

[Bob L.]

Thank you, Fr. David. I may go to visit the Holy Archangels monastery in Kendalia, Texas. I believe I would like being a monk. I don't have any desire to be married or pursue wealth anymore. I would hate to hurt my mother and brother who are currently depending on me. And of course I can't imagine parting with my cat.

[Albion]

Monasticism is one of the means that God is offering for you to work out your salvation. Whether you choose to follow that path or the path of married life in the world (I do not recommend living as a celibate single person in the world - it can be done but it is a difficult path) is not important.

I am single, by virtue of my wife having left me five years ago, and consequently celibate. Except for one 'fall' a few months after my wife left, I have remained celibate. I would welcome your elaborating on your statement. I cannot say that I have been pleased by my celibacy, but don't believe I have unduly suffered. What I am struggling with now is whether I feel called to embrace a permanent commitment to celibacy. There are days when I find such a thought not to be offputting, but others when I can't even imagine such a thing.

[Olga]

And of course I can't imagine parting with my cat.
As an ailurophile of many years, I can quite understand this. The good news is that cats are welcome in a great number of Orthodox monasteries, including on Mt Athos. It is also significant that the one critter which has free rein in an Orthodox church, including entry into the altar area, is the cat.

As well as a number of folk customs which support this, there's also a Russian synodal council which proclaims this (too far back for me to remember which one). There's also the sterling example of the monastery in Cyprus known as St Nicholas of the Cats, originally established in the 4th century. The original cats were brought from Egypt to the region by St Helen (the mother of St Constantine) to control the plague of snakes there.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Olga wrote:


As an ailurophile of many years, I can quite understand this. The good news is that cats are welcome in a great number of Orthodox monasteries, including on Mt Athos. It is also significant that the one critter which has free rein in an Orthodox church, including entry into the altar area, is the cat.

It is a long standing local tradition of our parish even from the time of previous priests that their cats make it into the church. When I first moved here I used to leave the apartment door open which leads into the side of the altar. Until one day when I had reached the most moving part of my sermon and kitty wandered in and calmly walked through the Royal Doors. Now kitty only gets to visit the children after the service is finished.

Ailurophile: a new word for me! But I'm definitely one.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen]

I'm pleased as Punch to learn about the status of cats in Orthodoxy. I'm sure Mr. Tex Longwhiskers and Ms. Mitty Loptail will quite agree.

[Olga]

Until one day when I had reached the most moving part of my sermon and kitty wandered in and calmly walked through the Royal Doors.


Yet another example of cats being masters at teaching us mere humans humility - a state which we are all urged to strive for, laity and monastic alike. :-)

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

In an Orthodox environment of course Tex and Mitty will have to convert their names. How about hesycat.

Yes- the creatures do try to teach us humility.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Margaret S.]

As an ailurophile of many years, I can quite understand this. The good news is that cats are welcome in a great number of Orthodox monasteries, including on Mt Athos. It is also significant that the one critter which has free rein in an Orthodox church, including entry into the altar area, is the cat.

The Little Sisters of the Discalced Sardine Eaters (they're western rite) are very pleased to hear this too.

They also tell me that the 'M' on a tabby's head is from where Our Lady blessed the tabby cat for purring the infant Jesus to sleep.

Regards,
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[Owen]

Tex is an orange tabby, he could go as Chrysostom. Mitty is a dainty little black & white, she could go as Kassia. And had I been more on the ball when I got them, I probably would have named them after Saints.

[Jason H.]

Thanks, Fr. David, the thread has some very useful information. I get depressed easily, so monasticism is probably not realistic for me. I'll see if I can make some progress some other way.

Bob,

Try using this to locate a nearby monastery. http://orthodoxyinamerica.org/lr_v10/locator.php?geo_region=us

-Ignatios (Jason)

[Bob L.]

Ignatios, I believe you had posted earlier about joining a monastery. I was curious about your motivation. If I was a monk I would be hoping to have someone tell me how much to fast and pray so I can simply focus on following his guidance instead of wondering if I'm doing too much or too little or not the right way.

[Ivan Miletic]

I recently heard about Fr. Lazarus, a Coptic Monk. His biography is interesting and instructive on how he became a monk after being an atheist and a professor for years. I am not sure if links are allowed on this forum but these are to a youtube video of him telling his story to a Coptic youth group in a series called A Monk’s Life. There are seven parts in total from what I know of. Have a look at them.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vFUT3xegIY&feature=related

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I watched the first two of these videos. Very interesting and a story of moving towards Christ familiar to many who grow up in our conditions. One thing that struck me though is that he has a different understanding of the hierarchy than we do.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ivan Miletic]

I am not sure what this means. "One thing that struck me though is that he has a different understanding of the hierarchy than we do. "

Can you calrify?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I am not sure what this means. "One thing that struck me though is that he has a different understanding of the hierarchy than we do. "

Can you calrify?

I only watched three of the videos so maybe I missed something. But to me he says that the Church is one thing with all of its genuine spirituality etc, while the hierarchy with their various weaknesses are another. In terms of his background, justice and so on were central to his sense of himself. So this seemed to explain where his comment about the hierarchy comes from. But it really isn't right.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ivan Miletic]

I thought that was a string comment as well; however, to me he is saying that the hierarchy implies the world is present as much as the Lord is in the church, and he is looking to Christ so he wants to purify and reject that worldly aspect as much as he can. In later episodes he talks about attending liturgical services and taking great joy in them but for him making his life a living prayer is paramount.

[Donna Rail]

Bob L.- prayers for you in your discernment. :)

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. David,

I am convinced that 99% of good mental health is based on love and structure (discipline). Without love the structure is a burden. But love without discipline is chaotic and even dangerous for the mind.

[Nektarios]

I think God is calling me to Monastic life...

[Paul Cowan]

Check that with someone. I too had and still have these feelings before and when I returned from the Mountain. It "calls" to you. I understand.

Paul

[Nektarios]

I have been thinking about it even before I planned my trip to mount athos. I have been talking to the abbot of a monastery about it.