Desert spirituality

[Matthew W.]

a question from someone newly introduced to the spiritual practices of the desert fathers and mothers.

without stirring much controversary, in contemporary times where best do we find desert spirituality represented?

thank you and God bless you.

[Owen Jones]

In the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Unfortunately you have to be a drunk to qualify for membership.

[Justin]

I'm afraid I fail to understand your answer Owen, will you clarify?

[Owen Jones]

If you look at their literature, they promote a daily discipline of living in obedience to God's will in all things. Daily repentence. Constant vigilence against the seven deadly sins. Constant guarding of the intellect against temptation -- confession of thoughts that interfere with doing God's will. Connecting all of the aspects of the person -- physical, mental, spiritual -- in obedience to God's will. I'm not sure where else you will find that, at least institutionally, except in a few monasteries.

[sinjin smithe]

Owen, does that include all twelve step programs or is that only special to AA?

[Owen Jones]

Dear Sinjin,

I hear this reference frequently to "all" or "other" twelve step programs. Aside from Narcotics Anonymous, which is exactly the same as AA except it's primarily for drug addicts, and Alanon, which is for family members and friends of people with drinking problems, (still the same program), there aren't really any other groups worth mentioning and I am somewhat skeptical of the cross over (over-eating for example). It seems necessary to have a life and death perspective to want to work what is a pretty rigorous program of ascesis. They are all spin offs from AA that try to use the AA program for other problems. Alcoholism is a really fortuitous malady because it's so comprehensive -- a disorder that is physical, mental and spiritual, and therefore demands that it be "treated" on all these levels, which is exactly what Orthodoxy teaches us about the nature of sin. It is a kind of disease or corruption that requires a cure on all levels.

I think the bottom line is that right action leads to right thinking, not so much the other way around.

The irony is that AA has no religious dogma apart from what is implied, that God is good, loving, forgiving and powerful. The Church is full of dogma but these days short on the practical application. One is foundation without much superstructure, the other is a great edifice without much foundation. Oh, you can find it in books. But you won't find much if any reference to how one actually applies Christian dogma in daily life in most parish preaching, and certainly precious little "support" and ongoing guidance. I think priests are taught some basic historical and dogmatic things and pretty much rely on them for their preaching for the rest of their careers. But a person can't live dogmatically. Early AA inspiration came from the EPistle of James -- faith without works is dead.

[Richard Domina]

Owen, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Christ is in the principle. He is in His commandments(as St.Maximus says). Work now- fruit to follow. There is no credit in heaven, everything has got to be cash up front. "Show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works." Our religion has turned into all icing and no cake. If we can just stay on the surfboard the Wave will carry us. (i'd better quit before I assualt you with another cheesy analogy.)

[Owen Jones]

And there is a tendency to think too much and too big. It's little things. Mayor Guiliani went after the small offenders -- the graffitti, vandalism, minor crime. That had a huge impact on larger crimes. Same with the spiritual life. We want all of the big concepts as a kind of diversion away from our responsibility to pay attention to the little sins that we commit, sometimes only in our minds, that get us off track. We have a very strong tradition in that, but it has fallen into disuse.

[Moses Anthony]

Aahhhhh!


"We want all of the big concepts as a kind of diversion away from our responsibility to
pay attention to the little sins that we commit, sometimes only in our minds, that get us off track."

That is precisely my point in mentioning one of my favorite Scripture verses, in reference to reversing the tide of worldliness invading the Church, turning our hearts, and the hearts of those who do not know Christ, towards their true home.


"I think the bottom line is that right action leads to right thinking, not so much the
other way around."

This one I have to disagree with; (1)I don't believe it's true, and(2)it disagrees with what Scripture teaches(Prov.23:6,7- especially verse 7; Romans 12:1,2- especially the second half of verse 2; James 1:5-8, especially verse 8). Is not this the point of thinking from an Orthodox mindset, so that the manner, the conduct of our lives would conform not to this world, but to right belief.

Before the Desert Fathers took any action that turned the desert into a city, they first believed/thought, that this was the way for them to fulfill the will/commands of God. At this point that is what I believe the connection between thoughts and actions to be; i.e, if I do not think impatience to be sin, I'll probably never feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit to change what is 'just my personality'.

the unworthy servant
moses

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Anthony and Owen,

I read with great interest the discussion in this thread. With regard to the latest posts, which have dealt with 'right action' and 'right belief', and the taxis or 'order' in which one leads to the other, it is likely a rather futile challenge to try to place one before the other in any absolute sense. In point of fact of the Church's experience, it is true both that 'right action leads to right belief' and 'right belief leads to right action' -- and there are Scriptural and patristic quotations in support of both. As with so much of the Christian life, this particular question cannot be too concretely universalized: in some situations, for certain people, right action is the only way that right belief will ever be obtained (see many of the exhorations of the Desert Fathers for such admonishment); while for those same people in other situations, right belief is the only way that right action will be forged (one can find such a concept heavily emphasised, for example, in the writings of the 4th-6th century Fathers).

The fact that both statements are true can be gleaned, by way of example, from a few telling sayings of St Isaac of Syria:


'You should not wait until you are cleansed of wandering thoughts before you desire to pray. If you only begin to pray when you see that your mind has become perfect and raised above all recollection of the world, then you will never pray' (i.e. action leads to belief/perfection).

'The reading of Scripture is manifestly the fountainhead which gives birth to prayer' (i.e. doctrine/belief leads to action).

'The knowledge of God does not reside in a body that loves comforts' (i.e. ascesis/action leads to belief/knowledge).

'Virtue does not consist in many different visible bodily activities, but in a heart that is wise in what it hopes for, and whose actions are accompanied by right intention' (i.e. wisdom/belief leads to virtuous action).

INXC, Matthew

[sinjin smithe]

Owen, you mentoined that there are not many other 12 step groups worth mentioning other than AA, but what the groups that deal with sex addiction such as SA or Sex addicts anonymous. I know a man who goes to one of these twelve step groups and it seems to be pretty similar to AA.

[Owen Jones]

It's all borrowed from AA. The steps are the same except the word alcoholism is removed.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Getting back to the original question which prompted this thread, Matthew W. wrote:

In contemporary times where best do we find desert spirituality represented?

You have heard mention in the above posts that reflections of this kind of spirituality can be found in such groups as AA. This is something I have heard from many people involved with that group; though having never had any personal interaction with any function of AA, I cannot speak directly to this.

But I would also add that the spirit of the Desert Fathers and of 'desert spirituality' in general is still alive and well in the Church; though it may be harder to find in the form of a condensed mass, as it might have been seen, for example, in the late fourth century. We are wrong if we think that the forces of secularisation or modernisation have wiped out this element from the Church. Quite to the opposite end, it is precisely in the moments that true Christianity faces its most heated opposition that this kind of genuinely ascetic spirituality flourishes -- though it often does so in ways that are not obvious to the eye.

Finding examples of this kind of spirituality being lived is not hard; one just has to know how to look for it. If we go out looking for large institutions of 'desert spirituality', we will be disappointed. There are no colleges that foster it. Seminaries and theological academies don't necessarily house it. Monasteries may not always be filled with it.

To find examples of ascetic spirituality of the raw, authentic kind proclaimed in the writings of the Desert Fathers, etc, you need to look to the 'quiet people' in the Church -- those who are genuinely, consumingly concerned with the working out of their salvation. It would truly surprise me if there were not at least a few in your own home parish (yes, true ascetics exist in parishes); but they are almost certainly not the people trying to make a name for themselves. They are likely the quiet ones; the people who sit pensively in the Church and don't make moves at show or socialisation. Look around you, and you will find these people in more places than you think.

To be a genuinely ascetical person is not requisite upon being part of a specific group; it is about hearing Christ's call to be perfect, and being radically, practically, committed to following it. And despite the fact that Christianity today exists in a world of demoralisation, secularisation and dilution of every and all truth -- these people still abound.

INXC, Matthew

[Owen Jones]

Thanks for those very good comments, Mathew. I like the phrase, "the desert in your own back yard."

[Moses Anthony]

There's something which used to bother me as a Protestant in Sunday School, which is surfacing here on a couple of these boards; and that is, terminology.

I converted to Holy Orthodoxy 4 yrs. ago, I've read The Life of St. Anthony, the biography of Ambrose and the Desert Fathers. I know a little of the development of the various forms of monasticism, but one thing eludes me still. For those of us converts with not as much mental snap, will someone please define "desert spirituality".

From where I now sit it, seems an interesting play on the word santification. As Christians we are called out from among the pagans, set apart for the glory of God. Those men and women who went to the desert, seem to have undergone an even more severe separation, that they might not to be conformed to the things of this world, but transformed by the grace of Almighty God.

I ask this about definitions because I once sat in a class, where true to most religious forms ,old cliches were trotted out about spiritual growth. I knew full well what the teacher meant, but I asked anyway, "How do you do that"? To my surprise the woman seated behind me said , "Yeah, how do you do that".

Therefore; Is there a clear definition of "desert spirituality", or is it like so many things of daily living in the various jurisdictions, somewhat loose.

I like what Justin posted on the 27th, "...if we want to find those who are practicing "desert spirituality", we most likely will have to make an attempt ourselves".

the unworthy servant
moses

[Owen Jones]

It sounds like you have answered your own question already Moses, but I'll try to add my own two cents worth. There is both a spiritual and an historical answer to your question.

Many Christians were alarmed and disgusted by the influx of luke-warm Christians into the Church after it became the faith of the realm in 325. For the first time Christian faith became not only socially acceptable, but a kind of social prestige was attached to it. So they fled the conventional church literally for the deserts of Palestine and Egypt to live a far more rigorous life of self-denial. That's the spiritual part summed up I should think: self-denial. But there is another spiritual aspect. The desert monks not only wanted to flee the comfortable Church and a fallen world, they believed they were doing battle against the demons, and many believed that they demons literally lived in the desert, from which they would go to make their assaults on the unsuspecting Christian. So they kind of saw themselves as fighting behind enemy lines on our behalf. As a spiritual metaphor, you might say that desert spirituality is when you focus inwardly on winning the spiritual battle against the demons. And because each person is a cosmion, and the inner world is the greater cosmos, then that inner spiritual battle is one of cosmic proportions and significance, and not just something we do on an individual basis to save our own necks. This cosmic dimenion of Orthodoxy seems to me -- and this is my personal opinion -- to be utterly lost today as a component of Christian spiritual consciousness.

The best "modern" work on the subject is Spiritual Counsels by Nicodemus of the HOly Mountain, and it is summed up on the first page.

[sinjin smithe]

Are there any good books that deal with the Desert fathers and how to practice their spirituality in daily life? I know Owen mentioned that AA today is the best place where Desert spirituality is practiced.

[Moses Anthony]

Matthew G.,

I've checked a couple of the threads and didn't find what I was looking for, so I'll leave it to you to post this where it belongs.

Sometime ago I made a comment that, God was greater than the light with which He's covered Himself, as with a cloak. (Ps.103:2, LXX). I wondered if some would consider me a heretic when I posted that statement. There was some confusion Matthew, which you cleared up in a subsequent post.

I"ve been reading A NIGHT IN THE DESERT OF THE HOLY MOUNTAIN, as is posted on www.pelagia.org (http://www.pelagia.org), as I'm keenly interseted in prayer, and thusly the Jesus Prayer. In the chapter on Fruits of The Jesus Prayer, I read this quote which I felt struck chord of what I'd posted:

This is what usually happens. Man proceeds from the vision of dim(small) Light to the vision of brighter(greater) Light until he reaches the "radiant darkness", as St. Gregory describes. But we need to know the teaching of the Fathers about the beholding of the "radiant divine darkness" in order to understand, in the Orthodox way, what was mentioned before. According to the Fathers, God appears always as Light and never as darkness. But when the nous of the God-seeing ascetic, while in "vision", wants to enter into the Divine Essence as well he meets the unpenetrable -the radiant divine darkness. Divine darkness, therefore is not the appearance of God as darkness, but the weakness of man to see the Essence of God, which is "the unapproachable Light". The divine darkness, therefore, is Light, but Light invisible and unapproachable for man. God is Light. "I am the light of the world(John 8:12), He said, and not the darkness of the world. According to St. Dionysios the Areopagite, "the divine darkness is the unapproachable light wherein God dwells, which is invisible because of it's supreme splendor and unapproachable beause of the excessive shedding of the supra-essential, and within which everybodywho is deemed worthy of knowing and seeing God is found, without seeing or knowingit at the same time". In this sense, therefore, we say that divine darkness is beyond light.

I'm not looking to re-start that discussion. I just thought this rather lengthy quote, would help others to understand "where I was coming from".

tus

[Hermit]

"in contemporary times where best do we find desert spirituality represented?"

Taking this a bit more literally than was intended, there are still hermits who flee into the wilderness to be alone with God. I do it on an occasional basis myself, although I'm too addicted to comfort to do it fulltime.

That's what it was all about, not so much being disgusted at the newfound acceptance and corruption of Christianity, but some people simply want to spend lots of quality time alone with the Holy Spirit. Raw, direct encounter in prayer, and in silence of senses and mind is what we seek.

It's a calling ... some are called to be priests or monks, some are called to a Christian life of marriage and work, some are called to be alone in the wilderness with God.

Around here (Mt Shasta) I've met a few New Age hermits, and a misanthrope or two, but no other Christian hermits. I believe there are one or two in the next valley over to the west, as there is an Orthodox monastery that could be considered in the desert (as in forested wilderness), only near a very small village.

[Elisabeth]

Yes, I think there will always be some people who need to 'flee into the wilderness' either permanently or occasionally. I have met Orthodox eremitics recently in Sinai, Egypt and also in Britain, and I have heard of others, both men and women. There is an Orthodox nun living on her own near to the cave hermitage of St. John Climacus in Egypt.

As Matthew wrote in his message on 29 August, there are also probably people of the desert right in our own parish. They will be the 'quiet people'. Some of them might be at the center of activity but manage to retain an inner silence and solitude. Some of them you might see out on the street. I saw an elderly man walking down the street at the same time every day for many years. His head was always bowed down and not looking at others like me, and his hands were always folded together. I never spoke to him, but I sensed his prayer and grew to love him.

You can find photographs of contemporary hermits at www.innerlightproductions.com (http://www.innerlightproductions.com). This website promotes the photographic work and books of Michael McClellan, but also has some useful links and offers to mail you a Saying from the Desert Fathers every week.

'Silence of the senses and mind' is difficult in our contemporary world of stimulation, but it is needed if we are to listen and pray.

Elisabeth

[Hermit]

Thank you Elisabeth, I love that site also, and have been receiving their weekly "Thought of the Week" for quite awhile ... also http://www.op.org/ravensbread/ on occasion.

[demetrios karaolanis]

I really enjoy the sights I have seen posted here. I have long read the lives of desert fathers and mothers. I have especially liked to read about saint paul of thebes and saint mary of egypt. I try to practice solitude, but I cannot come near to that yet. I am not that incredibly old I may end up in the desert myself. my protestant parents would probably hate the idea though. I think that the lives of hermits are those of the most devotion that can be found.

[Andonis]

hello demetrios,
i share your sentiments also. i find i enjoy solitude, but still unable to endure more severe solitude. i work at it daily, and read as you do of desert ascetics in awe. years ago, growing up in western society, it never would have even crossed my mind, that people have and do live this way. yet, it makes a great amount of sense, the idea to detach yourself from the world, in order to find true freedom. i plan to visit monasteries this year and get more of a taste of monastic living, to see whether i have a true spiritual thirst, or whether its just the devil playing tricks on me in an attempt to mock my efforts and confuse me. the devil, being as resourceful as he is, would without hesitation use the monasteries to try and sqaush spiritual fervor, so that the practising ascetic is disheartened and turned away from God.

[demetrios karaolanis]

I just need to tear myself away from classes and concentrate upon the ascetic life. I try to practice a more harsh way of living than the normal person but it is very difficult. this summer I as well think I may go and see if I do have a genuine thirst for monastic or solitary living. I hope that one day I will be strong enough to handle it.

[Andonis]

the other confusing thing i find is the sense of duty we are made to feel to the secular world. i am finding that my contemplation of God is unceasing, and that is it is becoming harder and harder to be enthusiastic about anything wordly. i'm sure this is reflecting on my performance at work, and my anti social behaviour of late.

then i have my father, whom although means well, sais things like you went to University and became a health professional, your duty is here to the world and not in isolation, monasticism is for the weak. this does not serve to make things any easier, when i too like Demetrios want to tear myself away from my daily activities as they are void of any true meaning. i think its worth trying living solitary even for the purposes of discernment and discovering your true calling. i am on way to Athos this year God willing...

[demetrios karaolanis]

I as well try hard to get rid of my sense of duty to society and my duty to my family to live in solitude but I find it hard to leave loved ones behind. I do not really talk to anyone and the people around me. I have made up my heart and my mind to enter the monastery someday and I have most of my life ahead of me to do so. I do not want to let myself live in the world for now so untill I can get a few things squared away in the world I train myself for the life I wish to live soon. good luck to you adonis on your spiritual journey.

[Hermit]

"then i have my father, whom although means well, sais things like you went to University and became a health professional, your duty is here to the world and not in isolation, monasticism is for the weak."

I think the letters to the Corinthians are my favorite of Paul's writings, Demetrios.

1 Cor 1:25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

2 Cor 12:7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[Andonis]

thank you Both Hermit and demetrios,

those quotes from the bible are brilliant in describing the ascetic Christian life compared to the robust "in appearance" worldy life. it is a paradox that the non spiritual find impossible to comprehend, that there where you become a fool for Christ, and take delight in sacrifice and suffering the iniquities and injustices of mankind, that is where you find greatest peace.

[Elisabeth]

Demetrios wrote:


I find it hard to leave loved ones behind

At the moment I'm reading a new edition of 'Letters from the Desert' by Carlo Carretto. He was a Catholic monk who lived in the Sahara desert for many years. On his arrival his novice master said that he had to cut ties with his former life. One day whilst on a day retreat in the desert he burnt his last tie with the past; his address book. He writes:


I can still see the black ashes of the notebook being swept away into the distance by the wind of the Sahara. But burning an address is not the same thing as destroying a friendship, for that I never intended to do; on the contrary, I have never loved nor prayed so much for my friends as in the solitude of the desert. I saw their faces, I felt their problems, their sufferings, sharpened by the distance between us. For me they had become a flock which would always belong to me and which I must lead daily to the fountains of prayer.

I don't think it follows that we all need to burn our address books! but we can pray for our friends wherever we are. I think there's quite a lot we can do to try to follow something of 'Desert Spirituality' in daily life. In a much earlier message Sinjin asked if there were any good books that dealt with this. Another book I've read recently is 'The Day-to-Day Life of the Desert Fathers' by Lucien Regnault, obtainable from www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com). It doesn't suggest how these practices can be translated into our century, but it gives some interesting details and relates them to the spirituality underlying them. I wondered if anyone has any more thoughts about practical things that we can try to do in our daily life if its not possible, or God's Will, for us to live in solitude in a desert?

Elisabeth

[Leo]

How would the people here define "desert spirituality?" It seems to be used a lot.

[Justin]

One of the brethren once saw Macarius of Alexandria carrying a full basket of sand uphill and emptying it. The astonished brother asked him why he was doing that. Macarius replied: 'I am wearing out him who wears me out' (that is, the devil).

[An] elder, when robbers had taken everything from his cell, looked around and saw that they had left a bundle of money, which had been lying hidden somewhere, so he quickly took up this bundle, called to the robbers and gave it to them.

An old man in the hermitage at Myra fell ill and longed to eat a little fresh bread (for the bread eaten there by the monks had been dried in the sun and kept for many months). Hearing this, one of the monks went out without a word and travelled a long way to the town, whence he brought fresh bread for the aged sufferer. The old man, learning of the labour of the monk who brought it, would not eat the bread, saying: 'This is the blood of my brother' (ie. my brother has brought it to me with great difficulty). Then the other monks begged the old man to eat it, saying to him that he must no reject the sacrifice of his brother.



You can't "define" spirituality of any type, the most you could do would be describe it. Even descriptions, however, are but mirky reflections of the truth. Experience is the true teacher.

[Mark Flory]

While I agree that, in one sense, spirituality cannot be defined and must be "learned" through experience, I think this posits a dualism that does not conform to Patristic understanding. While many of the Fathers were very sceptical about the ability of the written word (or even speech) to convey spiritual teaching, they nevertheless utilized these means of communication. Why? Because they did not think that writing/speech was utterly worthless, but only that it was inferior to direct experience. However, they also believed that writing/speech, when inspired by the Holy Spirit, could impart grace to the reader/hearer (as an icon does to the pious viewer). St. Theophan the Recluse called this the "principle of reciprocal action" - i.e., that a grace-filled work could be a means of grace for those who approached that work in the same spirit. So, while experience is certainly the inexpendable criterion for Orthodox spirituality, it certainly is not the whole of it.

Moreover, the spirituality of the Fathers - yes, even the Desert Fathers - while not systematic in any modern sense, is certainly, let's say, not completely random. That is, there is a coherence of approach (and sometimes of presentation) in the writings of the Fathers and the stories about the Desert Fathers. There was a coherent, if not orderly, concept of spiritual life. Not merely coherent, but well-integrated - every part of the life cohered and 'fit' with every other. It was a total picture, even if it is not presented according to Western canons of systematics. There are important preconditions to engaging these writings, preconditions which have to do with the spiritual preparedness of the reader; whether or not one is under spiritual guidance; whether a specific writing is intended for a specific audience or person, or whether it is more general (see, e.g., St. Macarius of Optina's little book of letters of spiritual direction, or for that matter the opening to the Cloud of Unknowing - these are really not intended for a general audience, and therefore we must practice discernment with regard to how we apply their teachings in our lives). There is a pretty consistent understanding of the constitution of human being assumed by the Fathers (spirit [nous], soul [psyche], body; and the heart as the integrating center of these). There is a common soteriological conception of Providence (i.e., as Christians seeking perfection, we are embedded within a cosmic history which begins with Creation and is Redeemed by Christ's Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection, and extends to His Second Coming - in other words, the Fathers understood "individual" salvation within a much larger context).

So, right, you cannot define spirituality, but you sure can go a long way toward entering into it if you understand the modes of communication and the presuppositions of the Fathers. Ultimately, however, thinking is moot - you must "enter."

[Justin]

You're right, Mark, thank you for the correction. I don't mean to make Orthodox and/or desert spirituality sound esoteric, but I sometimes let myself say things that give that impression.

You know what the really strange thing was? Right after I posted that I was researching something and read through the beginning of Saint Ephraim's First Discourse to Hypatius (http://www.ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/ephraim1_1_hypatius1.htm). here I am talking about the inability to properly define something, and the Great Saint Ephraim is praising speech to no end, even identifying it with the likeness (and image) of God. (which is what led me there in the first place)


Leo, if I could make a suggestion for a text to start exploring such things, I'd recommend Tito Colliander's Way of the Ascetics (http://www.stvladimirs.ca/library/way-of-the-ascetics.html)

[Owen Jones]

Just as an interesting sidelight to this discussion, the term spirituality didn't exist until the 18th Century. It was coined by deists who believed that Church and dogma needed to be transcended, and that one could become spiritual by, for example, climbing mountains. No one climbed mountains until the 18th Century. Now it's something people do all the time for their spirituality.

[Moses Anthony]

Mark, Justin, Leo;

Why must I/anyone, first understand the modes of communication and presuppositions of "the Fathers", before beginning to enter into desert spirituality?

Am I wrong to believe that any, and indeed all spirituality, is the by product of obedience to the commands of God and the leading of the Most Holy Spirit.

I've read a few of the works of the Church fathers; and yes, by grace they've inspired my life. However; the true profit of them has come as I've put into practice those timeless principles behind their inspired words!

"Define desert spirituality". I think I asked the same question of Owen some time ago, in a slightly different manner.

t.u.s

[Justin]

"Must" is a strong word, and I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif I don't think the Fathers are a necessity, they're just the surest canon to come down to us in making sure we understand God correctly. The Bible is central, but then the Bible is too deep to be understood by fools like me, so the Fathers help immensely. Certainly, though, we can "let nature be our book, and all creation our tables; and learn from them the laws, and meditate things unwritten." (Saint Ephraim the Syrian, On Admonition and Repentance, 18)


Owen, that's interesting... though I think it a bit of a strech to say that "no one" climbed them for "spiritual" reasons until then. Coined by deists though.. sigh..

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Elizabeth: I think, apropos approximating to desert spirituality whilst remaining in the secular life, that an essential first step has to be the achieving of inner stillness and quiet in the midst of a noisy world. As I have said before, meditation and concentration on a focal point such as a light or a picture (including an icon of St Nicholas) helps me, but any favourite prayer (eg the Jesus Prayer) could serve as a hub or focus for taking a ten minute step back from the quotidian demands of life. And the benefits conveyed by a beautiful view should not be discounted, whether it is of your own garden or a distant mountain.

Having just come back from an inspirational, out-of-tourist-season, visit to the monastery of Mont St Michel in Brittany, I would opine that mountains, however minuscule, are just as powerful a spur to contemplation as deserts. Having once camped for two nights in the Wadi Rum in Jordan, which takes two days to cross by motor vehicle, I can claim some small basis for making the comparison. So a visit to an unfrequented location can be recommended to refresh the spirit.

For Catholics (and Buddhists) prayer beads are often used as a meditation aid, but I have always found that to be too busy an occupation. It is better, I find, to keep the hands still, the more readily to quieten the mind against distractions.

the seeker

[Hermit]

Leo, "desert spirituality" or Desert Fathers in the most literal sense refers mainly to a group of Christians who bailed out of population centers right around the time Christianity began to become accepted in the fourth century. They lived as hermits first, then in loose-knit groups of hermits, and eventually in monasteries for the most part. Their spirituality was very simple and austere, consisting mainly of prayer, work, and recitation of Psalms.

Some of their sayings can be found at http://www.innerlightproductions.com/archive.htm

Deserts and mountains are useful largely because they have areas with more peace and quiet, fewer distractions if one chooses a campsite carefully. There are fewer large animals such as bears (one keeps trashing my camp) and vandals (these animals have struck a few times also). If you aren't too close to springs or tourists there are also fewer biting and stinging insects.

I use rote prayers and devotions mainly to settle my mind in preparation for quiet Christian contemplation, as explained in the Cloud of Unknowing, and by other Christian mystics.

[Owen Jones]

I would add that the desert is a place where the demons reside. So desert "spirituality" has to do with engaging in battle with the demons. this is of necessity a solitary activity. But the solitary combats the demons on our behalf as well. A common misconception is that the solitary ascetic is someone who is only seeking his own salvation.

[John Wilson]

Very astute point Owen. A clear example of this is Mount Athos or Ayion Oros (Holy Mountain) as it is called. Though it is a spiritual retreat for many people and has produced many saints, both known and unknown, a brief read through an Athonite Gerontikon wil make it clear that the place is literally crawling with demons. This is not to say that Mount Athos is in actual fact an evil place, far from it! It is simply where one of the front lines of the spiritual battle raging around us exists. If it wasn't for the battles being fought there, the evil one would be free to expend his energies elsewhere. But since, unlike God, the evil one is not omnipresent, if he and his demons are engaged in battle in places like Mount Athos and many other places like it, then their influence is greatly reduced in the rest of the world. Thus we owe a great deal of gratitude to those who take up such ascetic struggles, since indirectly they take up our own struggles, giving us respite from the devils attacks.

John.

[Elisabeth]

Margaret...thank you so much for your pragmatic and helpful advice. Thoughts for which I feel sympathy, including a love of mountains and praying without a prayer rope (at times). I realize that there is a wealth of advice and discussion on prayer and asceticism within previous message pages and other threads...subjects such as food, sleep, the office, commercialism, TV, parties etc.

I'm not sure if anyone has discussed keeping a store of things. Apart from the teaching to take 'no thought for the morrow (Matthew 6:34,Luke 12:29) but instead concentrate on 'a treasure in the heavens' there are many sayings of the Desert Fathers about this.This is on my mind due to an incident that happened yesterday. I live on the outskirts of a village which has no shop. A friend was giving me a lift back from town and told me of another friend who was ill in hospital. As I have a store of all sorts of things which might be useful one day (its not vast or obsessive, but its there!) I was able to give her a card to give to my friend who is ill. She also wouldn't accept any money for petrol, but did accept a bottle of wine from my store.

I read recently of a saying by a Desert Father that he no longer needed to give gifts. This may have been because he was no longer in a situation that called for a gift. (I didn't keep the reference and seem to have lost it) In relation to my story above, if I hadn't had a store I could have sent a verbal message to my friend in hospital and just thanked my friend with the car.

Any thoughts or further references anyone?

Elisabeth

[Owen Jones]

This is why we are inextricably linked to monastics.

[sinjin smithe]

An interesting thing to compare would be, to see how the churches that have monasticism have fared compared to those that do not.

[Justin]

One important factor in such a comparison would be making sure that you were comaring Churches where monasticism was important versus Churches where it wasn't. The Greeks in America, for instance, have a much stronger Monastic presence than the Antiochians, but it hasn't helped them stay out of the theological/practical troubles they've gotten themselves into in the area of modernism. For monasticism to effect a Church, the secular Church as an entire group must first feel that it (ie. monasticism) is relevant to it.

[M.C. Steenberg]

In a recent message, Elisabeth wrote:


I read recently of a saying by a Desert Father that he no longer needed to give gifts. This may have been because he was no longer in a situation that called for a gift. (I didn't keep the reference and seem to have lost it)

If you should manage to find the reference to this apothegm, I would be thankful if you could post it here. I'm not able to recall, from my own memory, a passage of this content (though it's certainly in the right spirit for the Desert Fathers).

INXC, Matthew

[ioannis vernikos]

Hello,

I need your assistance and help about monasticism and the ecumenical councils. I am trying to find the role of the monks in the ecumenical councils, canons dealing with monks and what did the monks do for the ecumenical councils. I cannot find any book discussing the role of the monks in the ecumenical councils. If you know anything please let me know.

In Christ- Christ Is Risen!
Yannis

[Fr Averky]

Dear Ioannis,

I receive the "Orthodox Observer," and under the heading "books," it says that The Rev Fr. Demetrios J.Constantelos will soon release a book entitled "The Historical and Ecclesiastical Significance of Church Canons," which includes a chapter on monastics. It will be put out by the Apostlike Diakonia of the Church of Greece, whose general mangaer is Bishop Agathanglos of Fanarion.

There will also be a second book entitled, "The Council in Trulo ( 691-2) A case Study."

I hope this will be of use to you.

Hieromonk Averky

[Hermit]

I read recently of a saying by a Desert Father that he no longer needed to give gifts. This may have been because he was no longer in a situation that called for a gift.

There was one who was dying and said he needed no offering made for him, because he had made an offering for himself and would find it again. Not exactly the same thing, and I forget details even on this.

[Herman Blaydoe]

The Greeks in America, for instance, have a much stronger Monastic presence than the Antiochians, but it hasn't helped them stay out of the theological/practical troubles they've gotten themselves into in the area of modernism. For monasticism to effect a Church, the secular Church as an entire group must first feel that it (ie. monasticism) is relevant to it

It should be noted that this "stronger" monastic presence in the GOA is a relatively recent phenomenon. In the first edition of The Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos, he bemoans the fact that although the Greeks were the greatest in number, they had no monasteries in the US. All but a handful of GOA monasteries are the direct result of the efforts of Fr. Efrem and have been in existance less than 10 years. That is a very short period in Orthodox time. However, I do believe that as more and more people are exposed to these spiritual treasure houses, they will bring a little of that treasure back to their parishes, and good things will come of it.

[Elizabeth Hanson]

My dearest Herman in Christ,

RE: Monasticism within the GOA

Good is already happening. I went on a Lenten retreat this year where the speaker was a Greek Hieromonk. Unfortunately because he was a monk, the laity kept their teenagers away from him for fear he would recruit them into the monastery. We had about fifty people there and most of us were over fifty years of age. Those who came were on fire with the faith and we all benefited tremendously.

It's a beginning but look what happened to Father Maximos of Mt. Athos when he was sent to Cyprus. The villagers wanted to kill him when their sons and daughters entered his monasteries. Now things are getting better slowly but surely. (cf. The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides, available in pb from Amazon.com)

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Fr Averky]

Dear Justin,

Thank God for Father Ephraim and his monasteries; while there are those who are searching for a "Guru," generally speaking, the monasteries have raised spiritual awareness and the idea of struggle for many Greeks who have this as part of their heart and soul, but because of the modernist and ecumenical tendendencies of a recent archbishop, they were denied that possibility for many years. It seems to me that Archbishop Demitirios is a humble man of prayer, a monk, and a loving pastor. This along with the flowering of monastic communities will bear much spiritual fruit as time goes on, and I pray for this.

Fr. A.

[John P. Nasou]

Herman Blaydoe wrote: The Greeks in America...have a much stronger = Monastic presence than the Antiochians, but it hasn't helped them stay = out of the theological/practical troubles they've gotten themselves into = in the area of modernism. For monasticism to effect a Church, the = secular Church as an entire group must first feel that it...is relevant = to it.

We hear the charge of modernism so often as regards the practices of = the Church of Greece and the Patriarchate of Constantinople. = Unfortunately the charges are in respect to human-ordained practices as = opposed to Christ's teachings. We hear complaints about pews in the = churches, fasting practices, beardless priests, decreased observance of = compline and vesper services, ecumenism, consorting with Catholics and = Protestant and, heavens to betsy!, calendar changes. Any changes in = these inconsequential areas don't effect one's belief in Christ and = their worship. If we are to look without prejudice at the history of = worship by the Orthodox Churches we would see that through the ages = there has been continual change. For God's sake, let's talk unity rather = than do constant bickering.

John Nasou, Maryland USA

[Justin]

John

Actually I had said that, and Herman was only quoting me.

But what you are saying would be like taking pieces out of a puzzle and then pretending like it really didn't matter since you could still make out the whole picture anyway. Some of the things you mention are indeed somewhat cultural, including sitting ("pews") and beards; this doesn't make them irrelevant, or the leaving of them insignificant. From what I've read, St. Nektarios the Greek didn't think them small changes. A second group you mention, such as the calendar change, is indeed a very big issue: anyone who says differently is arguing with tradition, not me. It is tradition (and a document from an ecumenical council, no less) that says that one group fasting while another group is feasting is shameful and a terrible thing. But that's what we have with the calendar situation today. One needn't go into a diatribe about how the calendar change is wrapped up with modernism and ecumenism, the practical effects on people at the grass roots alone provides serious enough reasons for concern.

Also, when I spoke of the Greeks, I was thinking of some other practices that are now either normal, or at least are suggested by Greek priests without rebukes from their bishop. Contraception has become widespread, for instance, and some even pretend like the Church never spoke on the issue. There's also the fact (and I've spoken with people who have done this, thus I call it a fact) that Greeks are sometimes told by their priest to attend a heterodox (e.g., Anglican) parish and to receive communion if there is no Orthodox Church in the area that they are in.

I see a number of good signs in the GOA, and I've met some very pious, holy Greeks (certainly far more pious than I!) I'm not trying to bicker either (and I only listed perceived lapses because you questioned further). You talk about unity, but who is unifying with whom? For our children's sake, let's not rush into a false and ill-conceived unity; and let us do everything for God's glory, and never say that we do it (using the phrase) "for God's sake".

[Hermit]

It's a beginning but look what happened to Father Maximos of Mt. Athos when he was sent to Cyprus. The villagers wanted to kill him when their sons and daughters entered his monasteries. Now things are getting better slowly but surely. (cf. The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides, available in pb from Amazon.com)

What an extraordinary book, Elizabeth! I wouldn't think there was much of anything at all worthwhile in Orthodoxy if I hadn't read that book. Well, aside from the Desert Fathers and some of the saints.

[Justin]

Are you trying to be offensive Hermit, or was it accidental?

[Pavlos]

John

Being Greek Orthodox myself I personally feel there is sometimes a "buffet" approach in our Beloved Church in America. We pick and choose what suits us and write the rest off as irrelevant or an acceptable loss. This varies from Metropolitinate to Metropolitinate (did I just make up a word?) and even parish to parish. While there is much piety and blessedness in the GOA, I personnaly feel we must always look inside our Parishes and ourselves vigilantly and make sure we are upholding the whole of Orthodoxy, not just what suits us or is convenient.

Make no mistake, I am as weak, broken and sinful as they come and no better a Christian than any other person but I also believe ardently that we must preserve Orthodoxy in America, not adapt Orthodoxy to America.

Pray for me, a sinner
Pavlos

[Justin]

I'd like to add that I wholly agree with Pavlos here. I certainly do not mean to be saying "you're church is modernist, the one I go to is better". That is not it at all! Certainly we all have work to do on ourselves, without worrying about others, and so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything negatice to begin with (it isn't, after all, my job to go around pointing out perceived lapses).

[Hermit]

Are you trying to be offensive Hermit, or was it accidental?

I suppose I could have worded it better ... before reading that and another book on the elders of Mt Athos I had little understanding of the vital core of Orthodoxy, people struggling desperately to achieve union with God through an ancient branch of the Church (as opposed to people who are concerned with maintaining beards and ancient calendars, which may be important to them but doesn't interest me).

[Fr Averky]

John Nasou,

I do not agree that the chages that some Orthodox churches have made are "inconsequential." The Orthodox churches in this country are but a pale shadow of those in the Mother country. The Orthodox Christians I have met from the Middle East have the same fragrance of Orthdooxy that I find in the Russian Church. In this country, it is a completely different story I could give you a hundred examples of what these "inconsequential" things have done to the spiritual lives of the majority of Orthodox Christians in this hemisphere, but I also refuse to engage in a polemic. The only example I will give is that one Orthodox Church in this country said that it was not "fair" that women cannot recieve the Holy Mysteries when they are experiencing their monthly period, but men can go any time. Therefore, women can receive any time: the only problem with this is that when a man experiences a nocturnal emission, he also cannot receive communion, or even walk into the altar. There is a special prayer rule for priests, who often have no choice but to serve. Thus if we were really being fair, we would adhere tom the canons of the Church and not seek for things to be made easy and convenient for all.

I too pray for ther union of the Churches, but that union I pray for is an Orthodox Church which stands firm in Her teachings and does not compromise her truths for the "times" or to accomodate non-Orthodox. God bless you, and let us pray for the preservation of our precious Orthodox Church which has enemies not only from without, but from within.

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Hermit,

How nice it is to see your name again on Monachos! The absolute nonsense that you usually post brings me a warm and loving smile. I have missed you!

Fr. A.

[Monk Ivan]

Respectfully Fr. A. - Thought that you were disgusted and leaving this world of communication!

[V. Rev. Fr. David B. Sedor]

Dear "Monk Ivan,"

Why do you deliberately provoke Fr. Averky? Forgive me, but your "respectfully" rings rather hollow, as it seems to me there is no respect behind the word.

I am an Orthodox priest as well, serving in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, and I have greatly benefited from Fr. Averky's sage counsel. Fr. A., many, many thanks to you... I do not agree with you 100% of the time, but in matters of faith and doctrine and morals we certainly see eye to eye.

The Priest David S.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Father David,

I am glad to see you on Monachos. We cannot hope to have everyone agree with us but I hope that I will learn much from you in the future. I have been given much by this community, and I pray for everyone every day.

God bless you, Fr. David, and please, share with us your own wisdom and knowledge. While the approach of the Greeks and Russians might sometimes vary, the Russian Church recognizes and honors the Greek church as its Mother. The forces of darkness have attacked the Church before, but in the end She will triumph.

Fraternally yours in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

To my friends:

I had several interesting exchanges with "hermit" when I first joined this community, and he had not posted for some time. Although we did not always agree, I have always appreciated his input. I wrote him a letter privately telling him how very glad I was to see him posting again, and I would hope, and I explained to him, that I was smiling when I spoke of his "nonsense," for in truth, I did miss him, and am glad he is back! Posted, lest my words be misunderstood.

Fr. A.

[John P. Nasou]

I think Father David and the Scriptures said it all. - John Nasou

[Justin]

Hermit, John, et al.,

I apologize if I have offended anyone here, I often post in a way that is more reactive and less thought out than is proper for an Orthodox Christian.

[M.C. Steenberg]

It is indeed good to see you back, Hermit. I look forward to your comments.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Averky]

Just to keep the peace, allow me to clarify:

When hermit was posting earlier, he could make comparisons between Orthodox and Catholic teachings, which were very clear and intelligent, but then, he would end it all by saying something like "but then, I do not believe in theology anyway," and this was the "nonsense" of which I spoke. I firmly believe that some of the statements that Owen will make are intended to be like a little hand-grenade., which certainly gets some of us going -but in both of these men, I see much sincerety, and much good! God bless and keep you hermit and Owen!

Fr. A.

[Hermit]

Nice seeing you again also, Fr. A., Matthew, Justin, and all! I'm glad I haven't disturbed anyone too much with my bluntness, there's a rumor that we hermits aren't always good at getting along with people (now why would that be?). I still have a deep and abiding skepticism about human systems of theology, but I'm trying my best to humble myself and swallow some of those mental camels!

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Desert Spirituality

It is a small but lovely thing of which I am reminded by this unhappy phrase:

"...I still have a deep and abiding skepticism about human systems of theology..."

It reminds of how seldom, anymore, do I hear the equally disturbing phrase, 'I believe in God, but not in organized religion'. Thank God, I am spared those words!

The loveliness is that among the brothers and sisters now surrounding me, such torments never seem to erupt. Probably, others may recount the occasional apostasy toward doubt over that which the Lord left us -- the earthly stewardship and administration over His Body. As for me, I am aware of tormented souls who are hounded from church to church, never being allowed to rest, because they have indulged some sort of similar apostasy -- all of it done to the great glee of the liars harping about them. I am aware of this great sadness, but as for me, it is a small bit of Heaven that I am no longer confronted with those awful images.

Of course, this administration of the Body to which I refer is an ecclesial problem, while the confession I report above reflects doubt over theology. But that is only a different limb off the same tree.

Furthermore, there are clearly great differences in the two theologies -- in the one from Constantinople versus the plethora from Europe (which includes the Roman theological problem). And of course, neither of those two situations, East or West, is without its own human problems. But to submit to skepticism is to entertain a form of nihilism in theology -- that, as opposed to its alternative: Struggling to discover the Will of the Lord in these and all matters. It is all too unbearably sad.

But perhasp one overly dramatizes the problem. Perhaps, what we see above is not truly skepticism. I pray so. Yet, a larger truth is spilled out in so many messages. So many people are across the divide from me, struggling with their uncertainties. I wonder how many of them are still hearing the plaint, 'I believe in God, but not in organized religion'. I think it is the religious mantra of middleclass America; perhaps of Britain as well.

So much reminds me that I have never experienced the overwhelming beauty of the typical small church in Greece, much less that unbelievable submersion into the holy places of Israel. I have only been absorbed into the pale reflection of it in American, British and European churches. Yet, knowing a small portion, as I do, offers a degree of certainty over the whole. It is such an unspeakably beautiful sadness to be caught up in Orthodox Pascha anywhere, that we must weep for all those who are unable to cross the divide, and to experience this beauty of certainty.

This is a great part of the sadness which we ingest from the Lord, especially over Pascha. It is that so many people are stirred to wonder, but so few respond. So many are merely accepting a portion of the Truth.

I wonder how many still imagine that the church, or its theology, is made by hands? Don't tell me! Its too sad.

[Elizabeth Hanson]

My dearest Richard:

Re: ORGANIZED RELIGION

Recently, I have heard a lot of people say that they don't believe in organized religion. Then they say, "I'm Orthodox Christian."

Religion is man's attempt to placate God (or men's gods as they know them).

However, the Church is God's attempt to save men.

The Church was instituted by Christ. Therefore it is not a human organization, but a living organism where we are the Mystical Body of Christ and Christ is our Head.

Any comments from anyone? (Or should this be in another thread?)

Yours truly in Christ-God,
Elizabeth

[Justin]

Perhaps this is just me being reactionary (again), but I don't like it when people put down the word religion. A dead religion is certainly the same thing as dead traditions, and something that was condemned by our Lord. On the other hand, James and others spoke of true religion, a living tradition. I agree that the Church is theanthropic, it is partly Christ... but I don't think "religion" has to be so narrowly defined as only religiosity that is dead. I guess I just have a bad association with that definition because so many Evangelicals say "Jesus isn't about religion, it's about a relationship". To me, that's like saying "I don't need to follow the laws because I was adopted by the Judge as a son and he'll forgive me if I come before him". That's not really the right attitude to have, is it?

[Owen Jones]

The phrase you quote, Elizabeth is a common joke. Like those told in Samizdat. It reflects the current state of jurisdictional mayhem in Orthodoxy.

[Elizabeth Hanson]

My dearest Owen:

Re: Organized religion vs. hermitic life

The reference to organized religion may be a joke but it is nevertheless a truism.

That is probably why a lot of people want to be hermits. The human attempts at organizing religion get people sidetracked so much that they forget theosis and the proper worship of God.

Therefore, many Orthodox believe that the Church is one big fat Greek wedding = a social club. Herein lies the danger of "organized religion."

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Fr Averky]

Deasr Alvin,

I think that Elizabeth's emphasis was not on "religion." but on "organized." I don't think anyone would argue about the existence or necessity of religion.

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Sorry Alvin, I meant JUSTIN!

Justin, you are right, you react too much and too soon (Look who's talking) Read the posts and wait awhile and then read them again. I have gotten myself in trouble because I reacted before I fully understood what what being said, or before I could be reasonable in my response. Patience always wins the day! God grant us all more patience and love.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Elizabeth Hanson]

My dearest Richard,

I've been sick and we are having horribly hot and humid weather which has been frying my brain, so my logic skills are suffering right now.

How would you rephrase my statement quoted below to make it more logical?

"The Church was instituted by Christ. Therefore it is not a human organization, but a living organism where we are the Mystical Body of Christ and Christ is our Head."

Humbly I ask your help here!

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Fr Averky]

The Church is a human institution founded by Christ..

[Richard McBride]

Beloved of the Lord, Elizabeth

Due to your sweet nature, I know you ask sincerely when you say:

"How would you rephrase my statement quoted below to make it more logical?"

I have never been asked such a thing in sincerity before -- only as an acerbic retort. Without making a reply even more long-winded than I am used to giving, I will simply share my thinking on the matter, as I go along. I am not keen on breaking the meaning of the Church down this way.

The propositions are:

"The Church was instituted by Christ. Therefore it is not a human organization, but a living organism where we are the Mystical Body of Christ and Christ is our Head."

Firstly, 'The Church was instituted by Christ' is, I firmly believe, a true statement which no person should dispute;

Secondly, the next sentence links itself to the first by the abverb, 'therefore', which means, 'for that reason'. It is a causal implication which in effect says that the Church is not a human organization because it was instituted by Christ. And this statement in no way reflects what the Pauline letters are about. Quite the opposite.

The statement as given in the quote above is thus a logical fallacy; I think it is of the type known as, Post hoc ergo propter hoc [or, After this, therefore because of this].

This is not to say that truth is entirely absent in these phrases, but rather that in the way the phrases are linked, there results a non sequitur. So, let me see, as I write this, what else I might make of it:

The Church was instituted by Christ.
I am quite happy with this statement, since I accept Christ's mission to have been for that very purpose; others might argue over the meaning of 'instituted', but I would not; then:

The Church, or the 'ecclesia', means the Church of Jerusalem and any other individual Church; but it also refers to the whole body of Christianity which is one, and only one, in the Lord. Thus, this single word may be quite complex in expurgation.

However, I take the 'Mystical Body' to be only one thing: It is Host in the West, and the Lamb of God in the East. It is the Body of Christ mystically sent down by the Holy Spirit, offered to us in the Divine Liturgy.

And without trying to atomize the question beyond bearing, I feel confident in accepting that the Body, which is the Church, is indeed Christ, and at the same time the body is the people being led to salvation. Both the Shepherd and His flock are part of the "one". And if we were to extract EITHER of these elements, then there would have been no point in the whole thing in the first place.

A great deal may be said about this issue, but sloppily done as is this thinking of mine, I should simply say:

The Church was instituted by Christ.
It is indeed a living organization, where we go to receive the Mystical Supper; and when we worthily receive that Supper, we are transported up and further into the Body than we had been before.
At its lowest level, the Church is a human organization, wherein the humans are the stewards of the Lord's bounty. At its higher level, the Church is the Lord into whom we, the stewards, are drawn for our own benefit.
And in figurative language, Christ is the Head; but He is also the Body; and He is many other Things at the same time. So, breaking it all apart (as I am doing with your statements, Elizabeth) is actually a very false and misleading thing to do; for in even speaking this way, we tend to atomize the Unity which is really the Truth fo the matter.

I pray that you overcome the heat, Elizabeth, and that it become a means for strengthening you through prayer and your natural love of the children and of God.

richard

[Justin]

Father, Bless


The Church is a human institution founded by Christ.

What does this mean? Is the Church only "human with a divine origin"? Or is it, even today, "both human and divine"?

[Rebecca]

The Church is a human institution founded by Christ.

I wonder what St. Mary of Egypt would say if asked what the Church was?

[Rebecca]

but then I may not understand what Fr. Averky meant in his post..

[Owen Jones]

I don't think the Church is an institution at all, and I don't think that some new institution is what Christ was referring to when he said, thou art Peter, etc. He is referring to a house (ecclesia), symbolically, a habitation, an abode, an estate or household, a realm, etc., in a spiritual sense. Everyone must reside somewhere, in some realm of reality or unreality. Basically, he's saying to us, if you want to get real, here is a man, a disciple of mine, that you can trust to follow and throw your heart and soul into it, good and bad, just like he has done and will do, for me.

This does not necessarily imply any institutional apparatus whatsoever.

[Richard McBride]

monochos: desert spirituality > the meaning of Church

Reverend Nicon Patrinacos, in "A Dictionary of Greek Orthodoxy":

"The nature of the Christian Church has been clearly defined by the New Testament as being an ecclesia established by Christians as the New Israel and endowed by Christ with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost." [my emphasis; p.88]

He also says that both its divine and corporate nature was stressed and elaborated over time, and finally, "the origin, nature and mission of the Church were stated in the form of the one of the articles of Nicene Creed at the 1st and 2nd Ecumenical Councils."

George Grube, in "The Complete book of Orthodoxy", says:

"In the New Testament "Church" refers both to a community of faithful, or the so-called "Ecclesia" and as an organic entity extablished by Christ. After the period of the Apostles the corporate nature of the Church wsas stressed as a divine mandate." [84]

[Fr Averky]

To be perfectly honest, that line came from a class I took many years ago, and I repeated it with no real forethought. Consider that remark as null, and I ask someone else to answer because I am leaving for a day or two. Sorry Justin, Rebecca and Owen. I owe the community more than a thoughless statement

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Thank you, Professor McBride, I did not mean to overlook your good answer.

A.