Women on Mount Athos

[sinjin smithe]

MEPs Approve Resolution Seeking to Allow Women on Mount Athos

January 16, 2003 (Kathimerini) -- The European Parliament yesterday approved
by a marginal majority a 135-article resolution, submitted by Dutch MEP Joke
Swiebel, which, among other matters, seeks to lift a millennium-old ban on
women entering the all-male monastic community on Mount Athos as part of a
broader reinforcement of the fundamental rights of EU citizens. The ban on
women entering Mount Athos is a violation of sexual equality and EU
legislation governing discrimination, equality and citizens' freedom of
movement, according to the resolution, which was approved by 277 votes to
255.

This is terrible news, and it shows that the EU does not care about upholding Christian tradition.

[demetrios karaolanis]

This is a tradition that has been upheld since the Theotokos first walked on the soil of athos. it is a tradition as old as the monasteries, it cannot be changed now! It would be good for the world to stay out of the affairs of the holy mountian. do you have any links on this subject?

[OrthodoxLife]

I was frightened when I read of this last month. This would be "worldly" interference of the most ignorant and vicious sort.

Satan has attacked the Holy Mountain already, through the intended eviction of the monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery. Yes, I am in a "new calendar" jurisdiction. No, I do not believe these monks should be tormented over a belief that they hold so sincerely (and with concrete basis for holding it). (They do not seem to have been harassing their monastic neighbors about the issue, if I understand correctly.)

Through the prayers of the Theotokos, and her intercessions for her beloved Mt. Athos, may peace and privacy be restored!

[Radu Tarcau]

It seems the Greek Parliament rejected the request. (for now) read here (http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne301223.htm)

[demetrios karaolanis]

that seems to be a relief for now at least. I hope that this is the way out of the problem

[Marina Robb]

Simple .. propose that all Monasteries in Europe .. . including the hundreds of enclosed women's orders in Catholic monasteries are opened up to the public ... men and women alike. Propose that male tourists should freely walk through the kitchens of cloistered nuns in France, Germany and Italy ... there will be uproar and outcry and then we could quite simply point out "well, that is what you are demanding from Mount Athos"

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Marina.

I’ve always wanted to go to Mt. Athos (Agion Oros = Holy Mountain). I feel really envious when friends go there each year. After a stay of a week or so they come back both physically and spiritually refreshed. I have a cousin who is a monk at the Holy Monastery of Iveron and he has sent me a copy of the Holy Wonder-Working Icon of “Portaitissa”. I’d really like to see the original though.

As much as I’d like to visit Mt. Athos I know that it would be wrong. The monks in the monasteries there have been living in isolation from women for approx. the last 1000 years or so (this date might not be accurate because I can only vaguely remember reading about the length of time monasteries have been on Mt. Athos). I agree with your comment about Catholic monasteries – some orders of Catholic nuns also live in isolation with only one or two postern nuns ever leaving the monastery. There was a big discussion about this on Greek TV a while back and a woman who is a member of the Socialist Government here and a EU parliament member was totally in favour of it. She seemed to have no religious feeling about Mt. Athos at all. All she seemed interested in was the fact that women were not permitted to go there. It seems disrespectful somehow to arbitrarily make a decision about such an important issue, one moreover that doesn’t really concern the people making the decision. There are so many important issues in the EU that need solving that the question of whether women are allowed on Mt. Athos or not is hardly of supreme importance.

I think most of the monasteries on Mt. Athos allow their icons and other religious artefacts to be displayed from time to time in either Athens or Thessaloniki. I know that the Holy Monastery of Iveron has had an exhibition of its treasures in the US - New York if I’m not mistaken.

A much more important problem for women, I would think, is the fact that they are still paid less than men for doing the same job! And how about the lack of free day-care centres for working mothers?

Effie

[Fr Averky]

Marian.

Bravo! Too bad your proposal could not be made at the EU. In Northern California there is an all women's college to which men had applied, now over ten years ago, and at that time, the national news showed hundred of jubilant women hugging and jumping up and down as the proposal was tossed out. Yet we see that a men- only golfing club in Georgia is being visciously attacked by women's groups for not admitting women. In my youth, I inherited a membershio to a private men's club in San Franciso which was a bastion for some of the Bay areas' oldest families. When a woman lawyer fought for and won admission to the club, its members reacted by closing it down rather than breaking its tradition, a terrible loss, for the ideas which brought about many of the city's cultural, charitable, and social advatages were given birth there.

Some things should just be left as they are. Mt. Athos belongs to the Mother of God, and if she ever abandons it, we all shouild be afraid. I remember of how many of my non-Orthodox friends were horrified when years ago the actress/politician Melina Mecouri as Minister of Culture of the first socialist government proposed that the monks of Mt. Athos be relocated to Meteora and other places and that the monasteries turned into hotels, for, she said that the refectories would be perfect of gambling, and that the monk's cells had such glorious views of the water! Thank God, this never came to pass.

Father Averky

[M.C. Steenberg]

Following the subject of this thread, some might be interested to read an article posted on the website of the Moscow Patriarchate:


"STATUS OF THE HOLY MOUNT ATHOS AND ITS WAY OF LIFE WILL STAY UNCHANGED

"Speaking at a Europarliament session, the Greek Minister of Culture Evangelos Venizelos made a special statement on the future of monasteries on Mount Athos.

"He commented on a recent Europarliament resolution lifting the traditional ban for women to visit Mount Athos. He stressed that the Statute of the old monastic republic was not to be changed, because it had been legally fixed in the acts of the European Union and the Constitution of the Republic of Greece. [...]"

[Full text in English...] (http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne301223.htm) [Full text in Russian...] (http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/nr301223.htm)

[Ksenia]

It seems the Greek Parliament rejected the request. (for now) read here (http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne301223.htm)
can you post a link again? i tried it and it doesn't work.

[Ksenia]

Following the subject of this thread, some might be interested to read an article posted on the website of the Moscow Patriarchate:


"STATUS OF THE HOLY MOUNT ATHOS AND ITS WAY OF LIFE WILL STAY UNCHANGED

"Speaking at a Europarliament session, the Greek Minister of Culture Evangelos Venizelos made a special statement on the future of monasteries on Mount Athos.

"He commented on a recent Europarliament resolution lifting the traditional ban for women to visit Mount Athos. He stressed that the Statute of the old monastic republic was not to be changed, because it had been legally fixed in the acts of the European Union and the Constitution of the Republic of Greece. [...]"

[Full text in English...] (http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne301223.htm) [Full text in Russian...] (http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/nr301223.htm)
i tried it and for some reason the message says that link is non-existent. can you post it again?

[Irene]

Dear Ksenia, That's the unfortunate thing about such old posts, the articles referred in the posts can be so often deleted, so the links lead nowhere.

There is another thread here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-2186.html) about Women and Mt Athos.

I found an article from Reuters dated that says the ban is still in place. But I have found nothing else at this time. "Women break all-male Mount Athos ban" Tue May 27, 2008 11:11am (http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSL2673593220080527)

[Alice]

As far as I know, the ban is still in place and will remain so under a special designation for the Holy Mountain...however, I am quite upset about another presence, one which can have an even far greater potential for the temptation to sin, which has recently come to the Holy Mountain: wireless internet service on Mt. Athos and in six monasteries as of date.

Although I am sure that the use of the computer will have strict limitations as it does in the monasteries of Father Ephraim in the U.S., it is never the less, a sad day to know that a place which is so historic and old, and which one could 'step back in time' is now caught up to this degree...for both the monk and visitors.



ATHENS, Aug 20 (Reuters Life!) - Monks at six medieval monasteries have joined the 21st century with the installation of broadband Internet access on the remote Mount Athos peninsula.
The all-male Greek Orthodox monasteries were hooked up to a pilot wireless data transmission network, Greece's main telephone company telecommunications firm OTE said in a statement on Wednesday.
"Through the use of innovative technology, we can provide modern internet services for this special religious and cultural centre," OTE said. "The network provides for both broadband and IP telephone services."


I remember how nice it was when my husband and I used to visit St. Nektarios Monastery in Roscoe, NY because until very recently, there was no mobile phone service in the mountain area for miles.It truly made one feel as if one was leaving the modern world of stresses and worldly concerns behind, and by not having this option of communication with the outside world in one's consciousness, it became even more of a spiritual retreat which was therapeutic for the soul, mind and body.

Alice

[Jonathan Michael]

I understand the reservations about introducing wireless to Mt. Athos because as an internet user myself I know the spiritual dangers that lurk out there. However, as long as there are controls as Alice said,it should be fine.

It does help to show that the traditions of Mt Athos are not related to "preserving" the past, though. There are good, spiritual, reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos that are not related to keeping things "how they've always been". Introducing wireless to the Holy Mountain helps show this, I think, and that the monks there are not people who eschew technology, merely that they eschew "the world". I haven't visited Mt. Athos, but I've seen the pictures and the way the monasteries cling to the mountain edges must be down in part to technology (in synergy with God of course).

---

ps: I'm in a coffee shop now using wireless to post this :-D

[Andreas Moran]

Athonite monks were pioneers of photography in the nineteenth century. They are not 'technophobes'. Any medium can be used for good or evil.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

Athonite monks were pioneers of photography in the nineteenth century. They are not 'technophobes'. Any medium can be used for good or evil.

As I've stated in another forum, I hope that Athos could eventually broadcast some of their major liturgies via internet radio. That would be such an immense blessing.

Also, if this means that Athonite monks can now weigh in on very important matters (theological, liturgical, etc.), then, as we Filipinos say, "more power to them!"

The monks of Athos are severely anti-Catholic and sometimes the things they say about us make me cringe. Nevertheless, these men are truly holy, and the world can only become better if it hears their voice.

[Mary]

I remember how nice it was when my husband and I used to visit St. Nektarios Monastery in Roscoe, NY because until very recently, there was no mobile phone service in the mountain area for miles.It truly made one feel as if one was leaving the modern world of stresses and worldly concerns behind, and by not having this option of communication with the outside world in one's consciousness, it became even more of a spiritual retreat which was therapeutic for the soul, mind and body.

Alice

Dear Alice,

Interesting thought. I got home from 3 weeks at a monastery, with my family. They do have phones and internet. But not for a moment did I feel connected to the modern world. I didn't want to remember anything at home, so I could pay attention and absorb everything at the monastery. So, when I locked the front door and turned my back to the house, it was out of my mind. Perhaps I have amnesia or alzheimer's which is why I can forget my stresses and concerns with such great ease. =) There's got to be some good purpose for forgetfulness!

At the monastery, I had no calendar, I never knew what day of the week it was. When folks asked me when school was starting for the kids, I didn't know. All of my days sort of ran into each other and things just happened one by one, and I never knew what was going to happen next, and everything was beautiful. I did get on the computer two times, but it never really disturbed the peace that I was experiencing. i also felt very disconnected, even from my sister, who had sent an important e-mail.

I've been back for two days now, and I'm having trouble connecting to my house and my concerns and worries.

I do hope you keep visiting monasteries. I've been to St Nectarios. I totally loved it. I don't have a cell phone, so I don't know if there was any cell phone service when I visited.

In Christ,
Mary

[Antonios]

Dear friends,

I also confess that when I first read about the internet being introduced on Mount Athos, I cringed. I reckon I cringed because in my heart it was my very own multitude of sins which caused me such disgust.

I don't worry all too much about Our Lady's Holy Garden, because the saints who reside there will pray for the world until the coming of the Lord. In that day, there will be no dangerous cliffs or treacherous storms, and likewise, there will be no need for an 'internet'. In that day the children of God will all together glorify the Majesty of our Almighty Father and God. Amen.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Although I am sure that the use of the computer will have strict limitations as it does in the monasteries of Father Ephraim in the U.S., it is never the less, a sad day to know that a place which is so historic and old, and which one could 'step back in time' is now caught up to this degree...for both the monk and visitors.



I remember how nice it was when my husband and I used to visit St. Nektarios Monastery in Roscoe, NY because until very recently, there was no mobile phone service in the mountain area for miles.It truly made one feel as if one was leaving the modern world of stresses and worldly concerns behind, and by not having this option of communication with the outside world in one's consciousness, it became even more of a spiritual retreat which was therapeutic for the soul, mind and body.

Alice

Alice, study the wording of the Reuters news report.

six medieval monsteries
will join the 20th century

I really don't know what reaction I have when I read some of the things these presumably educated reporters write these days.

Once upon a time, reporters were supposed to be well informed so that they, in their turn, could spread their knowledge. Most of today's reporters are sadly lacking in knowledge and just copy and spread misinformation, believing it to be true because they apparently read it somewhere and are really too lazy to read up on the subjects they report on.

Another sign of the ridiculous times we live in.

Effie

Quite a few of the monasteries on the Holy Mountain have had access to the Internet for some years now.

And what does "joining the 20th century" mean really? That all the good things of the past are worthless and that technology is the most important thing in our lives today proving that we are an advanced species................

There is only one thing that matters in this life, one thing that will never change no matter what century we are living in. That is the quest for enosis with God. Technology if used right, will make our lives better, but it is not the the highest inspiration in our lives.

The monks of the Holy Mountain provide something that no new technology can give us. They are a "powerhouse" of prayer, as are all contemplative monasteries in the world, no matter what religion they are.

[Alice]

The monks of the Holy Mountain provide something that no new technology can give us. They are a "powerhouse" of prayer, as are all contemplative monasteries in the world, no matter what religion they are.

Dear Effie,

That is so beautifully written! Indeed, I agree...God only knows how much their prayers are saving our world in all its sin...

Dear Mary,

There is mobile phone service in the Roscoe, NY area now. I am now in Greece, and apparently, only the Americans use 'cell' phone in English, so I am training myself to say 'mobile' phone now. LOL...*wink*

I do visit monasteries in Greece, and have already been to St. Nektarios' monastery in Aegina, which I have been visiting for the twenty-five years, but so much has changed there over the years that, sadly, it no longer feels quite the same way when we visit... (the new large church and monastic buildings in all their splendor dwarfing the original humble monastery, nuns not around to talk to visitors anymore, the stressed out and unfriendly attitude of the women volunteering in the bookstore, and in the church and chapels, etc.)..and though I am always moved by tears to be so close to the saint's relics and monastery which he built with his own hands, I sorely miss the retreat experience and feeling of Roscoe. It is the closest we will ever feel to the Athonite rule and holiness, and it is quite special.

One monastery which is most hospitable here is the monastery of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Thebes. I have been extremely blessed to have met a couple of the sisters and their Elder in the U.S., and enjoyed visiting the monastery for the first time last year. The sisters have been seperated now into a few monasteries by the Bishop, so I didn't see my dear sister friend, but spoke to her on the Gerontissa's mobile phone, with her blessing, ofcourse. The sisters are young, educated, and come from many different backgrounds and countries. Some are converts to Orthodoxy. Since a few of them are American, they are most friendly in the open manner which we Americans are. This comes as a bit of a pleasant shock when you have spent some time in Athens, where people have become increasingly reserved and very unfriendly towards strangers. The nuns are hospitable too, and invited us to eat with them.
The location is most relaxing...up on a mountain--with fresh, light and cool mountain breezes and shady trees...something which is a most pleasant respite from the heat of southern Greece in the summer and early Autumn months.
I have visited many other monasteries in various parts of Greece including Chios, which is practically a second home to us, because it is where my husband's family was from, but, sadly, so many have only a few older monks and/or nuns around anymore, though they are worth the visit since the locations are always breathtaking, and a few of them are a thousand years old and quite historic, such as 'Nea Moni' (new monastery, built in the mid eleventh century by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX Monomachos and his wife.)

Alice

[Effie Ganatsios]

One monastery which is most hospitable here is the monastery of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Thebes. I have been extremely blessed to have met a couple of the sisters and their Elder in the U.S., and enjoyed visiting the monastery for the first time last year. The sisters have been seperated now into a few monasteries by the Bishop, so I didn't see my dear sister friend, but spoke to her on the Gerontissa's mobile phone, with her blessing, ofcourse. The sisters are young, educated, and come from many different backgrounds and countries. Some are converts to Orthodoxy. Since a few of them are American, they are most friendly in the open manner which we Americans are. This comes as a bit of a pleasant shock when you have spent some time in Athens, where people have become increasingly reserved and very unfriendly towards strangers. The nuns are hospitable too, and invited us to eat with them.
The location is most relaxing...up on a mountain--with fresh, light and cool mountain breezes and shady trees...something which is a most pleasant respite from the heat of southern Greece in the summer and early Autumn months.
I have visited many other monasteries in various parts of Greece including Chios, which is practically a second home to us, because it is where my husband's family was from, but, sadly, so many have only a few older monks and/or nuns around anymore, though they are worth the visit since the locations are always breathtaking, and a few of them are a thousand years old and quite historic, such as 'Nea Moni' (new monastery, built in the mid eleventh century by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX Monomachos and his wife.)

Alice

Alice, this is one monastery that is on my list of places to visit. I contacted them by e-mail a couple of years ago because I was interested in their organic garden. I have also watched a documentary on TV about the nuns and their monastery.

Effie

[Father David Moser]

The monks of the Holy Mountain provide something that no new technology can give us. They are a "powerhouse" of prayer, as are all contemplative monasteries in the world, no matter what religion they are.

I think it is necessary to point out that a non-Christian contemplative monastery cannot be a "powerhouse of prayer" in the sense that we understand the practice of prayer in the Orthodox Church. Prayer is communion with God and requires that the pray-er knows the One to Whom he is praying and is first joined to God through the sacraments of baptism and chrismation. Without this one cannot commune with God (otoh one could possibly "communicate" with God expressing a desire for communion which would then lead them to the Orthodox Faith as an answer to that communication).

Fr David Moser

[Anthony Stokes]

Introducing wireless to the Holy Mountain helps show this, I think, and that the monks there are not people who eschew technology, merely that they eschew "the world". I haven't visited Mt. Athos, but I've seen the pictures and the way the monasteries cling to the mountain edges must be down in part to technology (in synergy with God of course).


I can say that, here in America, I am very glad that some of the monasteries have the internet, at least that they have websites. St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona has the most complete collection of Byzantine Chant in English available anywhere, and if Fr. Ephraim (not the elder) didn't have a computer to work on, we would be at such a loss musically. My hope is that maybe the monks at Simonopetra on Athos will do this with their music someday as well.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Jonathan Michael]

Absolutely - the amount of Orthodox material I've found on monastery websites is immense.

Incidentally, I do have an mp3 recording of "Agni Parthene" by the SimonPetra Monastery on my computer which I must have got online somewhere, but I can't for the life of me remember...

[Carol Lockett]

Hello,

I am a newbie to this list. Could someone explain what are the "good spiritual" reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos? Thank you. Carol


It does help to show that the traditions of Mt Athos are not related to "preserving" the past, though. There are good, spiritual, reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos that are not related to keeping things "how they've always been".

[Mary]

Hello,

I am a newbie to this list. Could someone explain what are the "good spiritual" reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos? Thank you. Carol


Personally, I can't think of any. ;) But then, I'm prejudiced. I'm a woman. =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Alice]

Hello,

I am a newbie to this list. Could someone explain what are the "good spiritual" reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos? Thank you. Carol


It does help to show that the traditions of Mt Athos are not related to "preserving" the past, though. There are good, spiritual, reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos that are not related to keeping things "how they've always been".

Well, what I can think of, is that these men have chosen to live a life fully and totally devoted to God, in prayer, in praise, in work, in contemplation, and even in the very core of their everyday chores. The holiness and spirituality they try to achieve on the Holy Mountain is one of great heights and union with God.

In the monastery I visit in NY, which is run in the Athonite tradition and is led by an Elder from Mt. Athos, the monks pray the Jesus Prayer to themselves most times, and even while doing garden and construction work. Such is the intensity of their focus.

Women, whether we like it or not, are a destraction to men...and an opportunity for the temptation of sinful thoughts. Therefore, I have no problem in respecting the Athonite monks' right to living without the distraction of my gender!

If we women need spiritual counsel or retreat, there are many other Orthodox monasteries and convents which we can visit for this purpose.

(Even in the Athonite monasteries outside of Mt. Athos, where we are allowed to visit, we must be completely covered with a long skirt, long sleeves, and a headscarf...)

In Christ,
Alice :)

[Michael C.]

There are also many monasteries for women (in Greece and other Orthodox countries) that are forbidden to men. Panagia Voithia (All Holy Theotokos the Helper) in Chios is one of them. Although I remember when I was very young the nuns let me in to venerate the tomb of St. Anthimos of Chios. At least I think that's the grave I venerated, I was too young to remember, and at the time I didn't know about St. Anthimos.

[Paul Cowan]

There are also many monasteries for women (in Greece and other Orthodox countries) that are forbidden to men.

I was going to post something similar, but had no readily accessable examples to back it up. For men and women both, we seem to get bent out of shape when we are told we can't do something. Just because we may not agree with a particular rule, and in this case Athos with a history of over 1000 years, does not mean we have the right to enforce our change onto the rule.

How many convents would go up in arms if men started trying to force their way in? Some things are meant to be segregated.

Just as the Boy Scouts in this country are being sued right and left to admit homosexuals. Why can't the homosexuals start their own scouting organization? Why do they feel the need to invade this one?

Paul

[Mary]

Why can't the homosexuals start their own scouting organization? Why do they feel the need to invade this one?

Paul

Hey, that's a brilliant idea!!! =)

[Mary]

How many convents would go up in arms if men started trying to force their way in? Some things are meant to be segregated.



Paul

I can understand about men not wanting me around. I don't like being around myself either. But I seem to have a need for being in the presence of Godly men. Women are not Godly men.

But not to worry, I have no desires to go to Mt Athos. =)

[Anthony Stokes]

(Even in the Athonite monasteries outside of Mt. Athos, where we are allowed to visit, we must be completely covered with a long skirt, long sleeves, and a headscarf...)
In Christ,
Alice :)


And along those lines, young monks and novices at Athonite monasteries in the U.S., at least, are not even aloud to talk to women under a certain age, especially unmarried women their age.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Andreas Moran]

Could someone explain what are the "good spiritual" reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos?

Because the All-Holy Mother of God says so.

[Eric Peterson]

The Holy Mountain is a monastic republic. While a certain number of pilgrims do visit there and many receive spiritual help and inspiration, its purpose is not for pilgrims, but as a refuge for monks. In Greece especially where monasteries are forced by law to accept the burden of heavy tourist traffic, there must be refuges available for quietness and spiritual peace.

I have very good friends who have daughters who are nuns in Greece. One goes there every summer and his job is to "guard the gate" and prevent scandalously-attired persons from entering unless they cover up. Since the majority of monastery visitors, it seems, have trouble respecting the monastery, rather strict rules are imposed.

The addition of women to Athos is just one more thing in a list of many others. I don't see it as a historical argument, but as a necessity for maintaining the spiritual peace of the place. The main purpose of a monastery is for prayer and spiritual struggle. If they can provide hospitality, it's a blessing for them and the pilgrims. But many are the saints, especially hermits, who turned away all visitors, not out of hatred, but out of respect for the soul's peace. What benefit does a pilgrim receive if he or she is a burden?

Now, on the other hand, I will say that hospitality is a monastic obligation. And some monasteries I've been to have fallen short. But I think our expectations have increased to the point where we want to be waited on and entertained, and fed materially and spiritually. What do we bring in return for what we ask? Are we content if all a monastery provides us is just a change of scene? Or do we want or expect more?

[Olga]

Because the All-Holy Mother of God says so.

... and you should listen to your mother, especially when she is God's mother! :))

[Effie Ganatsios]

The Holy Mountain is a monastic republic. While a certain number of pilgrims do visit there and many receive spiritual help and inspiration, its purpose is not for pilgrims, but as a refuge for monks. In Greece especially where monasteries are forced by law to accept the burden of heavy tourist traffic, there must be refuges available for quietness and spiritual peace.

I have very good friends who have daughters who are nuns in Greece. One goes there every summer and his job is to "guard the gate" and prevent scandalously-attired persons from entering unless they cover up. Since the majority of monastery visitors, it seems, have trouble respecting the monastery, rather strict rules are imposed.

The addition of women to Athos is just one more thing in a list of many others. I don't see it as a historical argument, but as a necessity for maintaining the spiritual peace of the place. The main purpose of a monastery is for prayer and spiritual struggle. If they can provide hospitality, it's a blessing for them and the pilgrims. But many are the saints, especially hermits, who turned away all visitors, not out of hatred, but out of respect for the soul's peace. What benefit does a pilgrim receive if he or she is a burden?

Now, on the other hand, I will say that hospitality is a monastic obligation. And some monasteries I've been to have fallen short. But I think our expectations have increased to the point where we want to be waited on and entertained, and fed materially and spiritually. What do we bring in return for what we ask? Are we content if all a monastery provides us is just a change of scene? Or do we want or expect more?

The monasteries I have stayed at expect their visitors to help with the work. Keep their rooms tidy and clean, and not create any additional work for the nuns. Visitors are also expected to behave in a way that is compatible with their surroundings. No smoking, no radios, no loud noise. We benefit just by absorbing the atmosphere of these monasteries. (Why have convents been renamed monasteries, by the way?)

The monasteries are not there to entertain you in any way. In fact visitors are expected to fit into the normal daily life of the nuns.

Clothing :

The Souroti monastery - where Elder Paisios is buried - has wraparound skirts that the nuns have sewn, in a large basket next to the main gate. One size fits all....... Women who have forgotten that they are visiting a monastery can use them. They are also for tourists who just happened to visit the monastery and are dressed in shorts or whatever. Women are not required to cover their heads here.

Women are not allowed on Mt. Athos because of the danger of temptation. Jesus told us it is better to cut off your hand if it makes you sin. This is the same thing. It does not always work because women are not the only temptation that a monk is subject to. Elder Paisios tells us in one of his books about some monks who are unwilling to give up their comforts and that the only thing that separates them from worldly people is the fact that they live on Mt. Athos and not in some big city.

Effie

[Herman Blaydoe]

Why have convents been renamed monasteries, by the way?

Differentiation between male and female monasticism is actually a recent innovation to Orthodoxy, imported from western Christianity. Traditionally we don't have monks and nuns, we have male and female monastics. Calling them convents was the change, calling them monasteries is simply a return to Orthodox tradition.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Differentiation between male and female monasticism is actually a recent innovation to Orthodoxy, imported from western Christianity. Traditionally we don't have monks and nuns, we have male and female monastics. Calling them convents was the change, calling them monasteries is simply a return to Orthodox tradition.

This is confirmed by the fact that in Russian a convent is called zhenskii monastir (женский монастырь) which means women's monastery.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Olga]

It is the same in Greek. Moni and monastiri applies to all monasteries, there is no linguistic distinction between male and female establishments, other than a male/female adjective qualifier of the type mentioned by Fr Raphael. The only differentiation is in referring to monastics according to gender, (monachos/monachi, and kalogeros/kalogria), which is grammatically necessary. English does not have grammatical genders.

[Jonathan Michael]

English does not have grammatical genders.

... and "monkettes" would sound ridiculous ;-) I suppose "Nuns" is a more convenient word now, rather than "female monastics", but I certainly think that calling convents "monasteries" is a necessary return to Orthodoxy.

---

Hello Carol, you wrote:


I am a newbie to this list. Could someone explain what are the "good spiritual" reasons why women cannot visit Mt. Athos? Thank you. Carol

Many other posters have already given very good answers, but I feel I must respond because it is me you quoted and I don't want you to think I am ignoring you.

Andreas gave the best answer - it is a simple matter of obedience. However, given that you're an Episcopalian, telling you that the reason for not allowing women on Mt. Athos was because of obedience to an apparition of Mary the Mother of God might raise more questions than they answered! I hope I haven't prejudged you in that, Carol - but I do understand how non-Orthodox Christians feel about that. [edit - I have just read the Welcome Thread and see you were a catechumen for a number of years which will teach me to jump to conclusions. I apologize, and may I also add my prayers for your recovery)

And in any case, when I said there were good spiritual reasons for the rule, I truly wasn't thinking of that at all; I am weak in faith and so often feel the impulse to ask "But why?" when really I should accept what visibly good people tell me. The "why" of not allowing women onto Mt. Athos is, as others have said, so that the monks are not distracted from their prayer and contemplation. I think it was St. John of the Ladder who said that the prayers of the monastics (i.e. both monks and nuns) support the world. So we need their prayers, just as we all need each others' prayers. It's not that women, per se, are distracting, just that the opposite sex is nearly always distracting for people who have been called to celibacy. If any person has been called to a pure and chaste life, then there is one excellent way for the Devil to make this person fall - the opposite gender.

Monastic communities are ikons of the Hevenly Realm, of the community of believers who before God in Heaven give eternal praise and "are not given in marriage". This ideal vision is, on earth, tempered with pragmatism - and so although men and women living together but living purely and chastely out of wedlock is the ideal, it's never going to work on earth; so male and female monastics are seperated, and in some cases, the opposite sex is not allowed even to visit. Michael C gave an example of where this is the case for female monasteries.

The holy monks of Mt Athos have accepted in humility that to fulfil their calling and be both a powerhouse of prayer and a divine ikon of the Kingdom to come they must seperate from the opposite gender completely. This is very much in the "if you right hand causes you to sin then cut it off" vain (a quote that Effie has already given). It's extreme, but the Kingdom of Heaven must be taken by violence.

I think perhaps one reason people get the wrong idea is because, for whatever reason, there has never been a "Holy Mount" or "Holy Island" of Nuns (or has there??) If history had produced such a community of holy female monastics than no doubt a similar rule would have been applied barring post-pubescent lay-males from setting forth on the ground. I would not have any problem with this. We must sail the line between idealism and pragmatism, hoping for what is promised us, but keeping watchful over the realities of this fallen world.

I'm very sorry for the length of this post; it could've done with some editing down.

[Effie Ganatsios]

This is confirmed by the fact that in Russian a convent is called zhenskii monastir (женский монастырь) which means women's monastery.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Yes, it's the same in Greek actually. There is only one word "monastery" for monasteries. We just say a woman's monastery or a man's monastery. Gyneceio or andriko monastery.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Sorry, I just read Olga's message in which she says the same things as I did in my above post. Never mind - just thought I would mention it as we can't delete messages we have already posted.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

... and "monkettes" would sound ridiculous ;-) I suppose "Nuns" is a more convenient word now, rather than "female monastics", but I certainly think that calling convents "monasteries" is a necessary return to Orthodoxy.

---

Hello Carol, you wrote:



Many other posters have already given very good answers, but I feel I must respond because it is me you quoted and I don't want you to think I am ignoring you.

Andreas gave the best answer - it is a simple matter of obedience. However, given that you're an Episcopalian, telling you that the reason for not allowing women on Mt. Athos was because of obedience to an apparition of Mary the Mother of God might raise more questions than they answered! I hope I haven't prejudged you in that, Carol - but I do understand how non-Orthodox Christians feel about that. [edit - I have just read the Welcome Thread and see you were a catechumen for a number of years which will teach me to jump to conclusions. I apologize, and may I also add my prayers for your recovery)

And in any case, when I said there were good spiritual reasons for the rule, I truly wasn't thinking of that at all; I am weak in faith and so often feel the impulse to ask "But why?" when really I should accept what visibly good people tell me. The "why" of not allowing women onto Mt. Athos is, as others have said, so that the monks are not distracted from their prayer and contemplation. I think it was St. John of the Ladder who said that the prayers of the monastics (i.e. both monks and nuns) support the world. So we need their prayers, just as we all need each others' prayers. It's not that women, per se, are distracting, just that the opposite sex is nearly always distracting for people who have been called to celibacy. If any person has been called to a pure and chaste life, then there is one excellent way for the Devil to make this person fall - the opposite gender.

Monastic communities are ikons of the Hevenly Realm, of the community of believers who before God in Heaven give eternal praise and "are not given in marriage". This ideal vision is, on earth, tempered with pragmatism - and so although men and women living together but not living purely and chastely out of wedlock is the ideal, it's never going to work on earth; so male and female monastics are seperated, and in some cases, the opposite sex is not allowed even to visit. Michael C gave an example of where this is the case for female monasteries.

The holy monks of Mt Athos have accepted in humility that to fulfil their calling and be both a powerhouse of prayer and a divine ikon of the Kingdom to come they must seperate from the opposite gender completely. This is very much in the "if you right hand causes you to sin then cut it off" vain. It's extreme, but the Kingdom of Heaven must be taken by violence.

I think perhaps one reason people get the wrong idea is because, for whatever reason, there has never been a "Holy Mount" or "Holy Island" of Nuns (or has there??) If history had produced such a community of holy female monastics than no doubt a similar rule would have been applied barring post-pubescent lay-males from setting forth on the ground. I would not have any problem with this. We must sail the line between idealism and pragmatism, hoping for what is promised us, but keeping watchful over the realities of this fallen world.

I'm very sorry for the length of this post; it could've done with some editing down.

No, it was perfect. You explained everything very clearly.

Effie

[Anthony]

Even in the West, I think, "convent" used to refer to a particular kind or status of monastery, rather than one inhabited by women. I don't know when the modern usage crept in. But certainly I have never come across St Hilda's double monastery referred to as "a monastery tacked on to a convent".

I imagine the distinction between "monks" and "nuns" goes back a lot further though.



It is the same in Greek. Moni and monastiri applies to all monasteries, there is no linguistic distinction between male and female establishments, other than a male/female adjective qualifier of the type mentioned by Fr Raphael. The only differentiation is in referring to monastics according to gender, (monachos/monachi, and kalogeros/kalogria), which is grammatically necessary. English does not have grammatical genders.

Then on the other hand there is also Georgian, another Orthodox language, which has even less grammatical gender than English:

monk : beri
nun : monazoni

(Open to correction, but that is what I was told by a Georgian friend)

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I wonder if there is a relationship between the word convent and the word conventicle.

Since in Latin and old English conventicle meant a meeting or assembly perhaps the word convent originally had at one time less of a gender connotation?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

The word 'convent' has the same etymology as 'convene', 'convention', and so forth. The roots are the Latin 'conventum' and 'convenire' (con=together, venio=to come). It meant any assembly where people came together. In Med. English, it was usually spelt, 'covent' as in 'Covent Garden'. The word 'conventicle' is interesting. In classical Latin, 'conventiculum' originally had no diminutive or depreciatory meaning. Roman Christians used the word for their house churches. An edict of Galerius in 311 AD used the word in granting licence to rebuild such places of Christian worship. A century later, the word had acquired its derisive or contemptuous meaning and was used to refer to the meetings of heretics ('conventicula hereticorum' as the 4th Council of Carthage (419) has it). In English, the word 'conventicle' retained its neutral classical Latin meaning until the reign of Henry VIII (of course!) when it began to be used to describe unlawful, clandestine religious meetings.

There is no historical justification for using the word 'convent' only for a women's monastery - the word 'nunnery' served that purpose. (We may recall Hamlet's saying to Ophelia, 'get thee to a nunnery'.) The word 'nun' comes from late Latin 'nonna', Greek 'nanne' (aunt) and Sanskrit 'nana' (child's word for mother). Modern usage however has claimed 'convent' for a nunnery.
(Main source: OED.)

[Christopher]

The Most Holy Lady Theotokos & Ever-virgin Mary, is the only Lady and Women/Mother allowed on Mount Athos - still !

Monastery . . . male or female = monastics

Forgive me.

Fr. Christopher

[Nina]

The Most Holy Lady Theotokos & Ever-virgin Mary, is the only Lady and Women/Mother allowed on Mount Athos - still !

Fr. Christopher

Yes!

P.S Also when I moved to USA I was referring to monasteries as monasteries and my Orthodox friends from here were asking 'Was it a convent, or a monastery?'. I thought I was wrong and tried to adjust and thanks to Herman and all who affirmed that I should just keep referring to them as monasteries.

[Christopher]

P.S Also when I moved to USA I was referring to monasteries as monasteries and my Orthodox friends from here were asking 'Was it a convent, or a monastery?'.
Fr. Peter Alban Heers, in his English Preface to: Patristic Theology-The University Lectures of Protopresbyter John S. Romanides,
says the following:

[...] For many pious readers raised on the vestiges of 'Western' Christian expressions, the words of Father John will undoubtedly be new and even unbelievable, and may even come as a shock. The Faith of the Church herein presented is not conformed to this world (Rom. 12:2), is not the product of scholastic study, but is born of God and overcometh the world, for this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our Faith. (I John 5:4). It is precisely this otherworldly faith which most who call themselves Christians today, including not a few Orthodox, have yet to encounter. . . .

Nina, I would have to agree with Fr. Peter's words here, not only on the things +Protopresbyter John Romanides was speaking of, yet also, on 'terms' that the 'American ethos' has 'identified' with it's 'own' conceptual lexicon of experience. Naive Realism says, "what I see IS reality!" ... Rather than understanding, our perception is an interpretation of 'reality' [Solipsism aside]. This being one of the foundational aspects of accepting the collective (everywhere, always and all) experience of The Faith, based on the experience of the Prophets', Apostles', and Saints'.

Keep saying 'Monastery' ... to mean collectively = monastics, whether male or female. I do. :)

Please forgive me.

In Christ,
Fr. Christopher

[Mary]

Personally, I am very, very thankful, that both places can be called monasteries, because to me, a 'convent' sounds like another name for prison, and a 'nunnery' sounds like a place were fish are bred.

(Don't ask. I have very strange sensory nerves!) =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Misha]

Women are already present in Mt Athos through newspapers,magazines,telephones,television and recently,internet connection.

[Paul Cowan]

Women are already present in Mt Athos through newspapers,magazines,telephones,television and recently,internet connection.

Yes, buts its the difference of being AT the olympics and just SEEING the olympics from your living room. Sure you get a better view from the couch, but you do not get the experience of being there. (this one goes to the ladies)

[John Litster]

Personally, I am very, very thankful, that both places can be called monasteries, because to me, a 'convent' sounds like another name for prison, and a 'nunnery' sounds like a place were fish are bred.

(Don't ask. I have very strange sensory nerves!) =)

In Christ,
Mary.

I always found it a shame that (in the West, at least) the bland and institutional "convent," replaced the delightfully quaint and oddly matter-of-fact sounding "nunnery." Even if it does bring to mind some sort of breeding area :)

Just my overly-nostalgic take on things...

[Misha]

Yes, buts its the difference of being AT the olympics and just SEEING the olympics from your living room. Sure you get a better view from the couch, but you do not get the experience of being there. (this one goes to the ladies)

If we talk about the spiritual struggle,then watching the Olympics or whatever on TV is far more "dangerous" for a monastic life.
Immagination (logismoi) is the worst enemy of a monk and TV brings thousands of well looking persons and bodies in the "living room".
Then,the "avaton" becomes just a christian folklore.

[Alice]

If we talk about the spiritual struggle,then watching the Olympics or whatever on TV is far more "dangerous" for a monastic life.
Immagination (logismoi) is the worst enemy of a monk and TV brings thousands of well looking persons and bodies in the "living room".
Then,the "avaton" becomes just a christian folklore.

Dear Misha,

Forgive my ignorance, but what does 'avaton' mean?

I agree with you about images...they are very threatening to the soul of the monk...and logismoi are something which we all struggle with...atleast if one's mind is not assaulted by images and situations of the world, the monk, and the layman as well, can claim some control over them.

Isn't this the reason the monk retreats? Why should the world be imposed on him in his retreat?

Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!

In Christ,
Alice

[John Wilson]

The Most Holy Lady Theotokos & Ever-virgin Mary, is the only Lady and Women/Mother allowed on Mount Athos - still !
Actually, her mother has been seen sweeping the courtyard of St Anne's Skete on occasions.

John

[Misha]

It's from a/non and "veno"/entry or go
means non entrance,not allowed.

[Paul Cowan]

If we talk about the spiritual struggle,then watching the Olympics or whatever on TV is far more "dangerous" for a monastic life.
Immagination (logismoi) is the worst enemy of a monk and TV brings thousands of well looking persons and bodies in the "living room".
Then,the "avaton" becomes just a christian folklore.

I'm sorry Misha,

I don't see the connection from what I wrote and your response. I was not talking about watching tv. I was saying you can "see" more online than you can by going there briefly.

[Janice Chadwick]

There are also many monasteries for women (in Greece and other Orthodox countries) that are forbidden to men. Panagia Voithia (All Holy Theotokos the Helper) in Chios is one of them. Although I remember when I was very young the nuns let me in to venerate the tomb of St. Anthimos of Chios. At least I think that's the grave I venerated, I was too young to remember, and at the time I didn't know about St. Anthimos.

Except men are allowed in women's monasteries, since priests come to serve liturgy and give the sacraments. So you must admit that the other sex is allowed in women's monasteries. However, that doesn't mean that I think women should be allowed on Mt. Athos.

[Paul Cowan]

Except men are allowed in women's monasteries, since priests come to serve liturgy and give the sacraments. So you must admit that the other sex is allowed in women's monasteries. However, that doesn't mean that I think women should be allowed on Mt. Athos.

Sorry Janice.

This is not the same as men in general trapsing around the women's monestaries as would happen if the Mountain were opened up to the public. Priests are different from the general male population you must admit when it comes to them serving.

[Jonathan Michael]

I heard there is a Serbian turn of phrase along the lines of "...here comes two men and a priest" :-D No offence to any of the fathers on this board, but I feel they are "priests" first, before they are men - their role within the body of the Church being to show forth Christ within the community. If a priest's role and presence within a female monastery is limited to simply serving the Divine Liturgy, as Paul said, then this very singular (asexual) role is even more strongly reinforced.

[Paul Cowan]

I heard there is a Serbian turn of phrase along the lines of "...here comes two men and a priest" :-D No offence to any of the fathers on this board, but I feel they are "priests" first, before they are men - their role within the body of the Church being to show forth Christ within the community. If a priest's role and presence within a female monastery is limited to simply serving the Divine Liturgy, as Paul said, then this very singular (asexual) role is even more strongly reinforced.

Not exactly what I tried to say. I should develop my thoughts better.


Priests are different from the general male population you must admit when it comes to them serving.


In serving, I mean to say all a prest does. Not just Divine Liturgy. Confession, counseling, coaching and correcting as well as looking after the other needs of the monastery if the abbess needs assistance. If the monastery is a dependent of a larger monastery (I am speaking outside my knowledge) then I assume he pays the bills, writes corespondences, and other work in the upkeep of the place. He is NOT a tourist as other "men" would be. This was the differnece I was trying to make. As you said "two men and a priest".

The Theotokos is the only woman allowed on the Holy Mountain. For sure "touristy women" should not be allowed. What about other female monastics that have taken a vow of chastity and poverty? If a first step is to be taken to allow women, however doubtful, I could foresee this would be it.

Paul

[Jonathan Michael]

In serving, I mean to say all a prest does. Not just Divine Liturgy. Confession, counseling, coaching and correcting as well as looking after the other needs of the monastery if the abbess needs assistance.

Yes, you're right, and in fact I did get this from your original post. I just tried to be more specific regarding a priest's role in a female monastery but as you show I probably shouldn't have tried to exclude the other ministeries of a priest that you mention.

[Herman Blaydoe]

What about other female monastics that have taken a vow of chastity and poverty? If a first step is to be taken to allow women, however doubtful, I could foresee this would be it.

Paul

Except that they would probably be the last persons to want to violate the Tradition. Monastics, male and female, take such things much more seriously than some others might.

[Paul Cowan]

Except that they would probably be the last persons to want to violate the Tradition. Monastics, male and female, take such things much more seriously than some others might.

Yes, I see what you mean. This is the second blog (http://byztex.blogspot.com/2008/09/more-on-esfigmenou-monastery.html) I have seen on this story today. Neither gives a date reference so this may be old news.

[Father David Moser]

In serving, I mean to say all a prest does. Not just Divine Liturgy. Confession, counseling, coaching and correcting as well as looking after the other needs of the monastery if the abbess needs assistance....

However in a woman's monastery, the assigned priest doesn't necessarily do any of these things. In one women's monastery that I know, the monastic enclosure is entirely separated from the outside world. The Church where the priest serves sits on the "border" of that enclosure such that the priest enters the altar from the "outside" and the nuns enter the Church from the inside. The only doors between the two "worlds" are the doors in the iconostasis and a special window in the altar where the nuns bring the priest the bread offered for commemorations. The only thing the priest does in this arrangement is to serve the liturgy and administer the sacraments. All of the "counseling coaching and correcting" etc is the responsibility of the abbess and other eldresses of the monastic sisterhood. I have read of other women's monasteries as well with a similar arrangement. Thus the priest, as a man, never enters the monastic enclosure, but only when vested as the icon of Christ and only within the confines of the Church which is the Kingdom of God.

Another side point is that traditionally a monastic priest is not assigned to a woman's monastery, but rather married clergy are those assigned as it would be considered too great a temptation for a celibate monastic to undertake.

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

Another side point is that traditionally a monastic priest is not assigned to a woman's monastery, but rather married clergy are those assigned as it would be considered too great a temptation for a celibate monastic to undertake.

Fr David Moser

Forgive me Father David,

I apologize for questioning you. What about the women's monastery Ormilyea in Greece which is a dependency of Simonpetra of Athos? Here locally, the monastery St. Paraskevi is overseen by Holy Archangels (Two of ELder Ephraim's monasteries). Perhaps these are just unique situations, but what monastics are married? Clergy, yes. Married monks?

humbly,
Paul

[Father David Moser]

Forgive me Father David,

I apologize for questioning you. What about the women's monastery Ormilyea in Greece which is a dependency of Simonpetra of Athos? Here locally, the monastery St. Paraskevi is overseen by Holy Archangels (Two of ELder Ephraim's monasteries). Perhaps these are just unique situations, but what monastics are married? Clergy, yes. Married monks?

humbly,
Paul

Monks are generally not married - and if they were married they are widowed or their spouses have also entered monastic life elsewhere. I think that Fr Ephraim's chain of monasteries in the US are unique in many ways. They are Athonite in spirit but not always in practice. It is unusual for a priestmonk to be assigned to a women's monastery as the "rector" of the Church (although many strange things do happen in the diaspora).

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

Actually, her mother has been seen sweeping the courtyard of St Anne's Skete on occasions.

John

WOW!!! Thank you for telling us because I had never heard this story.

Saint Anna is the Grandmother of God and the Mother of Virgin Mary (sorry for stating the obvious). Even when she lived here she was holier than us the rest of women. She lived like angel with her husband St. Joachim. That is why God chose her to be the mother of our precious Theotokos.

[Effie Ganatsios]

WOW!!! Thank you for telling us because I had never heard this story.

Saint Anna is the Grandmother of God and the Mother of Virgin Mary (sorry for stating the obvious). Even when she lived here she was holier than us the rest of women. She lived like angel with her husband St. Joachim. That is why God chose her to be the mother of our precious Theotokos.

Nina, can we say that someone is the "grandmother of God"?

This is the first time I have heard this expression and it doesn't seem correct to me.

Effie

[Olga]

Hello Effie

Liturgically, both at the Prayer of Intercession at Vespers and Matins, and at the dismissals of the Divine Liturgy and other services, Sts Joachim and Anna are referred to as the holy and righteous ancestors (or forebears) of God. The Greek version is των αγίων και δικαίων θεοπατόρων Ιωακείμ και Άννης, the Slavonic is святых и праведных Богоотец Иоакима и Анны. The Greek word theopatoron and the identical Slavonic word bogo'otyets literally mean fathers of God, i.e. ancestors of God, that is, the incarnate God the Son, not, of course, God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

[Nina]

Nina, can we say that someone is the "grandmother of God"?

This is the first time I have heard this expression and it doesn't seem correct to me.

Effie

Dear Effie, sorry for the confusion and I am so happy Olga clarified it! That is what I meant and of course I referred to the grandmother of the incarnated Christ. When I say grandmother I mean it in an endearing form also since I love my grandparents and there is a special connection between grandchildren and grandparents that does not resemble to any other relationship. Although when Christ was a toddler I do not think (from what I have read according to tradition) His grandmother, Saint Anna, was still alive. However in Heaven she is still the mother of His Holy Mother which makes Saint Anna the grandmother. And I am sure she intercedes so much for all to Christ, our God, Who was born to her Daughter.

Also my point is that these were not random people that God chose for His plan. These were so holy people that were made worthy to be ancestors and forefathers of the incarnated Christ.

[Paul Cowan]

Olga, one more question, totally off topic.

How do I start a new thread? There was a little button that I I clicked in the past but I can't seem to find it now.

I want to start a discussion about what the Orthodox Church teaches about the Jews and the death of Christ. Does it blame present day Jews for what happened 2000 years ago. Did our Church resist and even try to change the mind of the Roman Catholic Church when it decided that today's Jews are not responsible?

Hi Effie,

At the bottom of this page is a "community quick links" drop down box. Click the forum area you want this new thread to appear under and at the top left of the page will be a "New Thread" box. Click that an you are set.

PC

[Paul C.]

Women were respectfully banned from the Holy Mountain in honor of the Most Holy Mother of God. The Theotokos was spreading the Gospel after the crucifiction of her Holy Son. She was in a ship which suddenly changed course against the rudder's stearing and landed on the shore of MT. Athos.

The holy mountain was then considered a spiritual garden to honor the Holy Mother of God and monasteries were soon founded there. When the ban on women is lifted by the Greek government a tradition says that the mountain will sink into the sea.

If I got any of this wrong, someone please correct me. I am writing from memories.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Paul, I forgot to say thank you for the information you gave me about starting a new thread. Thank you.

Another name for the Holy Mountain is Our Panayia's Garden.

I have always thought this to be very beautiful.

A couple of days ago I bought a book written by the Abbot of Iveron Monastery. The title is "The Christian Life as True Marriage." It's a very short book but it explains something that I have always felt a little uncomfortable with, mainly because I didn't understand it. I always thought the terms bride and bridegroom that are used in our religion a little odd.

This book explains the true "marriage" of the soul and the Word. It needs to be read quite a few times as each line requires us to stop reading and meditate on the thought expressed in the line.

Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote that "those reading something written by Fr. Vasileios (Basil) for the first time can initially expect some difficulty in understanding but that later on re-reading the text, they will see how everything fits together."

What I have read so far is extremely beautiful and, I am beginning to suspect, will serve as an example of what life in God really is.

This very small book is published by Alexander Press, Montreal, Canada and is part of a series of speeches given by the Abbot and translated into English.

Well worth finding and reading.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

I was just looking through my library and discovered I have two more in this series : Abba Isaac the Syrian, An Approach to his World, and Beauty and Hysychia in Athonite Life.

Fr. Vasileios considers Abba Isaac of Syria to be "one example of an inspired monk, aflame with the love of God and constantly pouring forth His mercy and His beauty."

Abba Isaac wrote : "Continue in mercy: when this is found within you, that beauty in whose image you were made, will be depicted in you."

[Moses Ibrahim]

Women were respectfully banned from the Holy Mountain in honor of the Most Holy Mother of God. The Theotokos was spreading the Gospel after the crucifiction of her Holy Son. She was in a ship which suddenly changed course against the rudder's stearing and landed on the shore of MT. Athos.

The holy mountain was then considered a spiritual garden to honor the Holy Mother of God and monasteries were soon founded there. When the ban on women is lifted by the Greek government a tradition says that the mountain will sink into the sea.

If I got any of this wrong, someone please correct me. I am writing from memories.

Paul

What you say is true according to Holy Tradition, but let us not also forget that it was in 1045 almost 1000 years after the Theotokos landed ashore that women were banned by the Emperor Constantine Monomachos. For those 1000 years women were allowed on that mountain. Was the decision to ban women a good one? Perhaps or perhaps not. I think it only strengthens the other faiths and religions views of us as subordinating women in relation to men. I guess others will argue that if you see things that way than what is wrong with women being ordained to the clergy? But this law that was implemented by one Emperor and it is not an infallible law, but the teachings of our Church are infallbile since it is guided by the Holy Spirit. In conclusion, I can't change any decisions that have been made, I just don't think it might have been the best of decisions in the first hand.

[Carol Lockett]

You write "Women were respectfully banned from the Holy Mountain in honor of the Most Holy Mother of God."

1. How does it honor the Theotokos to ban women from Her special garden?

2. What is "respectful" about this ban?

Carol



Women were respectfully banned from the Holy Mountain in honor of the Most Holy Mother of God. The Theotokos was spreading the Gospel after the crucifiction of her Holy Son. She was in a ship which suddenly changed course against the rudder's stearing and landed on the shore of MT. Athos.

The holy mountain was then considered a spiritual garden to honor the Holy Mother of God and monasteries were soon founded there. When the ban on women is lifted by the Greek government a tradition says that the mountain will sink into the sea.

If I got any of this wrong, someone please correct me. I am writing from memories.

Paul

[Paul Cowan]

I just don't think it might have been the best of decisions in the first hand.

Dear Moses,

Upon going, you will understand why it was and still is the right decision.

Paul

[Moses Ibrahim]

Perhaps Paul, you may be right. :)

[Paul C.]

What you say is true according to Holy Tradition, but let us not also forget that it was in 1045 almost 1000 years after the Theotokos landed ashore that women were banned by the Emperor Constantine Monomachos. For those 1000 years women were allowed on that mountain.Thank you Brother Moses, for correcting my inaccuracy.

From now on I will tell others of this tradition with the inclusion of your contribution - ban on women visiting Mt. Athos first imposed in 1045 AD.

By the way - subtract 'om' from Monomachos and what have you got?

Standing gratefully corrected,
Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Paul, you know this I am sure but just for those who don't, monomachos means mono=solitary machos=fighter. Monomachos translated into English means gladiator.

And monachos literally means someone who is on their own.

Monachos with the emphasis on -os means monk.
Monachos with the emphasis on -a means anyone who is on their own.



A monk is also a solitary soldier for Christ, someone who lives on his own and battles his own passions in order to unite his soul with God.

I love words and the meaning behind them.

Effie

[Paul C.]

Paul, you know this I am sure but just for those who don't, monomachos means mono=solitary machos=fighter. Monomachos translated into English means gladiator.

And monachos literally means someone who is on their own.

Monachos with the emphasis on -os means monk.
Monachos with the emphasis on -a means anyone who is on their own.



A monk is also a solitary soldier for Christ, someone who lives on his own and battles his own passions in order to unite his soul with God.

I love words and the meaning behind them.

EffieThank you for that Effie.

There are two Paul's in this thread. Paul Cowan who you are probably familiar with here and me, Paul Christian (Paul C.), who you do not know much about yet. I think you thought that I was the first Paul.

I love words, their origins and meanings too. Did you know that the word "news" has nothing to do with anything new but it comes from N, E, W & S - meaning North, East, West & South - the four corners of the world or of your country, city, school etc.

I like "A monk is also a solitary soldier for Christ, someone who lives alone and battles his own passions in order to unite his soul with God." This statement seems to tie the two words together on yet another level.

Thank you for that,
Paul

[Olga]

I love words, their origins and meanings too. Did you know that the word "news" has nothing to do with anything new but it comes from N, E, W & S - meaning North, East, West & South - the four corners of the world or of your country, city, school etc.


Paul, sorry to be a pesky pedant. It is a wonderful and apt coincidence that news in the English language matches the four compass points. But if we look at other languages, the colloquial Greek is nea (what is new), standard German is Neuigkeiten (same meaning as the Greek), and Russian is novosti, also with the same meaning. I would imagine other languages would be much the same in their etymology of news.

[Nina]

What you say is true according to Holy Tradition, but let us not also forget that it was in 1045 almost 1000 years after the Theotokos landed ashore that women were banned by the Emperor Constantine Monomachos. For those 1000 years women were allowed on that mountain.

Ummm yeah. And men were actually banned from that place when it was pagan. Women were priestesses there and doing all kinds of things. Panagia's presence there was redemptive of women's image because she lifted it from the asociation with defilement and moral corruption which paganism taught and glorified, to the honorable place of purity, modesty and theosis.

This is why it is in Her honor. Also it is in Her honor because Her Son and our Lord Jesus Christ gave the Garden (Holy Mountain) to Her for the salvation of the world. Now as you all might know I am a female and I do not have any problem that I can not step on Mount Athos. I can admire it from a boat, I can fly over it but it is actually sacred for me to respect what the tradition is in Orthodoxy regarding women and Mount Athos. I as a female (and males) am not allowed also to enter let say mmm... Camp David, or Le Fort de Brégançon and so on. But I do not complain and surely I do not ascociate this restriction to women's (or male's for that matter) rights. We should not manipulate the issue. I do not know how old everyone is here but since childhood parents taught us rules and restrictions. And it is not a great deal that some monasteries are not accesible to women. Thank God, He has blessed us with so many monasteries all over the world that actually I, haven't had the time and possibility to visit all.

[Nina]

standard German is Neuigkeiten (same meaning as the Greek),

Are you sure about it?

[Alice]

Dear Friends,

While the Greek 'nea' is not improper, (and according to etymologists is one of the derivations of 'news') and has been used in the past for titles of newspapers...I just thought that I would inform anyone who might have reason to want to know ( *smile* ) that the word 'eidisis' is currently used for national and international news in Greece.

The word 'nea' is currently more colloquial and personal, such as 'what is new in your life?'

The Greek language in Greece is currently changing, and different words for the same meaning tend to come in and out of 'fashion'. *sigh*

In any case, I think that the letters of 'news' reminding us of everything north, east, west and south, is cute...whether or not it is accurate or not.

Hope that I haven't sounded like a 'know it all'... *wink*

Best regards to all,
Alice (feeling terribly rattled and scared by the military planes currently exercising (?) above and close to my apartment building here in Athens) *eek*

Here is an interesting etymology site: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=n&p=4
ENJOY!

[Alice]

Ummm yeah. And men were actually banned from that place when it was pagan. Women were priestesses there and doing all kinds of things. Panagia's presence there was redemptive of women's image because she lifted it from the asociation with defilement and moral corruption which paganism taught and glorified, to the honorable place of purity, modesty and theosis.

This is why it is in Her honor. Also it is in Her honor because Her Son and our Lord Jesus Christ gave the Garden (Holy Mountain) to Her for the salvation of the world. Now as you all might know I am a female and I do not have any problem that I can not step on Mount Athos. I can admire it from a boat, I can fly over it but it is actually sacred for me to respect what the tradition is in Orthodoxy regarding women and Mount Athos. I as a female (and males) am not allowed also to enter let say mmm... Camp David, or Le Fort de Brégançon and so on. But I do not complain and surely I do not ascociate this restriction to women's (or male's for that matter) rights. We should not manipulate the issue. I do not know how old everyone is here but since childhood parents taught us rules and restrictions. And it is not a great deal that some monasteries are not accesible to women. Thank God, He has blessed us with so many monasteries all over the world that actually I, haven't had the time and possibility to visit all.

Getting back to topic...(how *did* it steer to the word 'news', anyway?!?)

Dear Nina,

I agree with everything that you have said here.

In Christ,
Alice :-)

[Anthony]

In early Christian times I believe there were small cities on Athos, as in the rest of Khalkidkiki. Presumably they would have contained both men and women (apart from particular cults, as Nina says). I think they were abandoned for fear of pirates when the Empire became unable to police the seas (I don't know when this was). Remembering this reminds me that when the first monks went there it really was a remote and dangerous wilderness, taking a lot of faith to go to.

[Paul C.]

Paul, sorry to be a pesky pedant. It is a wonderful and apt coincidence that news in the English language matches the four compass points. But if we look at other languages, the colloquial Greek is nea (what is new), standard German is Neuigkeiten (same meaning as the Greek), and Russian is novosti, also with the same meaning. I would imagine other languages would be much the same in their etymology of news.Yes Olga,
You are absolutely correct on that point.

I got my info from a friend who's wife loved word origins. She owned a book and I assumed that the author of that book would be correct because he/she would have studied old books and dictionaries to collect word origins. As popular opinions can often be wrongly based on one wrong opinion to start with, I assumed that the explanation my friend gave me (that all other languages got it wrong by assuming the logical conclusion that the English origin of the word news came from something new even though new is an adjective and has no plural) was correct.

I have just come back from Google Land and copied the following explanation which makes me wrong. Boo hoo.


Dear Word Detective: I subscribe to a trivia newsletter from MailBits.com, and one of them today was this: "The word 'news' did not come about because it was the plural of 'new.' It came from the first letters of the words North, East, West and South. This was because information was being gathered from all different directions." I find this highly suspect, mainly because I believe the word "news" is very old, and anytime before 1900 (as you have pointed out) acronyms were extremely rare. But that does bring to mind, where do we get the word "news"? -- Harry, via the internet.

How strange. I know I answered this several question years ago, and I could have sworn that the column was up on my website, but apparently not. Maybe the web moths got it. There are web moths, you know, just like the ones in your closet, that nibble away at internet sites until they're all full of holes and the pictures won't load because they've been eaten. Sometimes they even try to creep into your house through the phone lines. That's why I always keep plenty of mothballs in my computer. Honest.

But the story they sent you about "news" is, as you suspect, utter balderdash. True, the word "news" is a bit odd in that it appears to be the plural of something, but "new" itself is an adjective, not a noun, and therefore cannot have a plural form. No matter how many novel things happen, they are simply "new," not "news." There's also no equivalent word for the opposite of "news." We study history, but we don't call it "the olds."

The theory that "news" is an acronym whose letters stand for the four points of the compass -- North, East, West and South -- is an attractive, superficially plausible theory, but, like many attractive theories, it is nonsense. In truth, "news" in English seems to have come about because someone noticed that the French word for "news or current events" is "nouvelles" (which is simply the plural of the French word for "new") and decided we should do the same thing in English. So there's no acronym in "news," but we do get to blame the illogic of the word on the French, which is better than nothing.

Sorry for time wasting, but I would trust the above explanation more if names and dates were sited. Who first coined "news" in English from the French and when?

Other wordly Paul.

[Carol Lockett]

Dear Paul C:

I posted a question on 10-6 in regards to a post of yours. While I'm delighted to see the etymology discussion in full swing (I'm married to a linguist), I guess I would like someone to respond to my questions regarding Women on Mt Athos which is the main subject of this thread.

1) How does it "honor" the Theotokos to ban women from her holy place?
2) How is this "respectful?" Paul had written that "women are respectfully banned."

Carol (still struggling with this issue)

[Jonathan Michael]

I cannot answer point 1, because for my part I always thought the main reason for not having women on Mt Athos was practical, as I already posted about. As for point 2., I suppose women are "respectfully" barred from the Mountain precisely beacause the reasons are practical and the bar is not imposed for spiteful or malicious reasons against women.

[Moses Ibrahim]

Dear Paul C:

I posted a question on 10-6 in regards to a post of yours. While I'm delighted to see the etymology discussion in full swing (I'm married to a linguist), I guess I would like someone to respond to my questions regarding Women on Mt Athos which is the main subject of this thread.

1) How does it "honor" the Theotokos to ban women from her holy place?
2) How is this "respectful?" Paul had written that "women are respectfully banned."

Carol (still struggling with this issue)

In my opinion, it does not seem quite honoring to the Theotokos; let alone to the women who seek to benefit from the holy mountain. According to the above mentioned reason in that the Theotokos is the only woman allowed, it only makes her out to be jealous of other women stepping foot in her Garden. Does the Theotokos need a whole mountain dedicated to her while not permitting any other women to step foot on it? Cannot the mountain still be dedicated to her while women benefit from it (from the monasteries/churches/monks and the Theotokos herself alike)? Is that not what happens when a Church is dedicated to the Theotokos and women are allowed to enter it? Or perhaps women should not be permitted to enter Churches dedicated to the Theotokos? Is there a better reason? Forgive me for being so bold and speaking on this issue which I don't know much about, but what I do know is the Theotokos prays for our salvation, she assists us, she beseeches Christ for us, why would she want women off this mountain (I certainly don't believe that but thats what it seems like is the collective agreement on here) I just don't think banning women might be the best option here. I just wonder, if in 1045 A.D. the ban was not put on women and today women were allowed on the holy mountain, would any of you want to ban women from this holy mountain? I think perhaps since the ban is in effect, many seem to go along with the idea that only men should be allowed... but what are the reasons for this? Monks everywhere else in the world seem to practice their ascetical life (by God's grace) quite normally with women visiting their monasteries. I cannot comprehend this reason, I am hoping that there are better reasons out there cause this one doesn't make sense. Please do keep in mind this ban was only put into effect by one man and from what I can tell, it was not a decision agreed upon by the Church at that time. The Church may like it the way it is now (since the ban has been around for 1000 years and perhaps may seem divine to many), but then again, I haven't heard of any good reasons yet. Any ideas or better reasons?

[Nina]

Panagia is not jealous. We should not see this issue from a human perspective, even more so, from a negative one.

Panagia knows more than we do. It is not spiritually beneficial for women to enter Mount Athos, it is not beneficial for the monks who live there. Since our purpose in this life is salvation, we must concentrate on this point. Women are prayed for in Mount Athos.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Carol Lockett asked:


1) How does it "honor" the Theotokos to ban women from her holy place?
2) How is this "respectful?" Paul had written that "women are respectfully banned."

This honours the Theotokos in the sense that the monastics on the Holy Mt are then better able to dedicate themselves to a life of purity.

In other words in order to understand this Athonite rule we must see what it positively tries to achieve rather than what it tries to prevent.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Ibrahim]

Panagia is not jealous. We should not see this issue from a human perspective, even more so, from a negative one.

Panagia knows more than we do. It is not spiritually beneficial for women to enter Mount Athos, it is not beneficial for the monks who live there. Since our purpose in this life is salvation, we must concentrate on this point. Women are prayed for in Mount Athos.

Believe me Nina, I don't think the Panagia is jealous, but with that explanation that she is only allowed, that is what one is to think immediately. Whether it is spiritually beneficial or not for women on the mountain, I still don't know. The argument just doesn't seem strong to me, and if perhaps more evidence was shone why it was a great idea and how it was a decision guided by the Holy Spirit or by the Church, I would be more accepting. Yet I remain doubtful. Yes I know women are prayed for on the Mountain and even many of the Spiritual Fathers leave the mountain sometimes to hear woman's confessions off the mountain. Thank you for sharing and explaining your perspective from the female's point of view.

[Mary]

Dear Moses & Carol,

I completely understand what you're both saying, and the questions that you have, because they are my own. I think a lot of the irritation comes from the way things are worded, and it rubs my ego the wrong way. Whatever the reasons, the fact is, women aren't allowed on Mt Athos. Studying facts can only get us so far, it's hard to understand the reasons behind them or the rightness or the wrongness of something. Explanations given only satisfy the giver of the explanation, and very rarely the one who is asking the questions.

I never received a satisfactory answer either, so in the end, I had to search for it on my own. I had to search in a different direction, since the direct approach of: "Why aren't women allowed?" - wasn't getting me anywhere. The direction I searched was: Why does this disturb the peace in my heart? What is it to me if women aren't allowed on Mt Athos? I have no desire to go there, and I am not directly dependent on anyone in Mt Athos for my spiritual life. And if people don't know how to speak in a way as not to offend my sensibilities, what should my response be? I found answers to those questions.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Carol Lockett]

How is it "not spiritually beneficial for women to enter Mount Athos?" How do you (or anyone) know this? Mt. Athos is constanty referred to as the "center" of Orthodox spirituality. Why would it be beneficial to women to ban us outright from entering such a spiritual place?

And to Moses Ibrahim (I hope I spelled that right, forgive me, I am new to the list). I loved your post. Keep on with the bold questions. I think your hypothesis that the ban is kept in place because it has been in place for so long is a plausible one. Orthodox are very reluctant to change but sometimes change is needed.

Carol

*********************

Perhaps
Panagia is not jealous. We should not see this issue from a human perspective, even more so, from a negative one.

Panagia knows more than we do. It is not spiritually beneficial for women to enter Mount Athos, it is not beneficial for the monks who live there. Since our purpose in this life is salvation, we must concentrate on this point. Women are prayed for in Mount Athos.

[Carol Lockett]

Mary,

Thank you very much for providing another point of view. After years of asking this question I , too, am completely frustrated. But I do know why it disturbs the peace of my heart --- because I believe the underlying message is that women are inferior, somehow contaminated. This disturbs me very much and makes it very hard for me to think of myself as a spiritual being or to pray. I've been wrestling with whether to join the Orthodox Church now for almost 5 years. I was a catechumen for 2 years before I left Orthodoxy for the Episcopal Church (where my worth as a female was not in question.) (And, yes, I am aware of the many problems of the Episcopal Church.)

If I ever hear an argument that convinces me that I (and other females), just because we are females, are NOT spiritually inferior to males (in spite of the bans and prohibitions that seem to proclaim otherwise), then I would probably get chrismated the next day.

Carol

[Nina]

How is it "not spiritually beneficial for women to enter Mount Athos?" How do you (or anyone) know this? Mt. Athos is constanty referred to as the "center" of Orthodox spirituality. Why would it be beneficial to women to ban us outright from entering such a spiritual place?

If you read the reply of Fr. Raphael you will see what my reply lacks.

In addition, I will give you one of the many reasons: I am a female and I know it is not spiritually beneficial to enter there because of the many things I do. Spiritual place, or not I have a tendency to dress sexy, or immodestly, or provocatively (you name it), and I am vain and like jewelry, mani&pedicure, fragrances, mascara, lip gloss/balm and so on. And trust me that women in USA are very modest in the way they dress in comparison to (especially the southern) European women (I live and lived in both continents and I know this also). Therefore I know there plenty of females that are like I am. So compare us to Panagia/Theotokos and you can arrive in a conclusion. Of course this is not meant as a generalization since there are plenty of modest women in Europe also.

You are right that it is such a different culture and epoch, however many things like vanity have remained the same. Vanity not only is a sin in its own but it also creates other temptations. I can go on revealing more reasons about how do I know that it is not spiritually beneficial, but I do not think you would like to read about my every sin.

I do not not know any Father or Saint of the Church who was opposed to the rule that women should not enter in the Holy Mountain. This is enough of an argument for me to respect what our Forefathers in Christ have established. And in such concordance I see the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (since Moses asked). Also did you know that Panagia's lot was to go to Mount Athos and Georgia as a missionary? The Apostles cast lots about the place where they would go. God wanted Panagia to go there since the storm brought her from the way to Cyprus to Mount Athos (since she was told by the angel to wait and not go to Georgia and Athos). It was Divine Providence, that inspired St. Lazarus to invite Panagia to Cyprus and the storm brought her to Athos. She ultimately did not go to Georgia, however St. Nina was sent.

[Nina]

because I believe the underlying message is that women are inferior, somehow contaminated. This disturbs me very much and makes it very hard for me to think of myself as a spiritual being or to pray.

Carol
*******************

Wait a second... There is nothing in the Church that indicates that women are inferior. We as females must be more confident and sure in God's love and not think this way. What do you mean that you do not think of yourself "as a spiritual being or to pray." To think of yourself as a sinner yes but other than that you are a soul that God loves very much.

If the reason that only Panagia is allowed in Athos bothers you, why not think that She is a woman. And it is our representative who has been there and is there taking still care of the world and the salvation of many souls.

Also keep in mind something St. Chrysostom has said. God created Eve from the rib to indicate equality, and not from the bones of the foot, or from the bones of the head. Please excuse the paraphrasing.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Men come to this place to dedicate their whole lives, without distraction, to God. They live as they desire to. Is this not allowed?

There are places where men are not allowed as well, simply not as geographically prominent.

If women found a place where they don't allow men, I would not gainsay them.

What is the problem, exactly?

Herman the Pooh

[Mary]

Wait a second... There is nothing in the Church that indicates that women are inferior. We as females must be more confident and sure in God's love and not think this way. What do you mean that you do not think of yourself "as a spiritual being or to pray." To think of yourself as a sinner yes but other than that you are a soul that God loves very much.

Dear Nina,

Just saying we must have confidence in God's love and shouldn't think we're inferior, isn't going to fix it. We have deep-rooted rot and brokenness, and it will take many many years to heal.



If the reason that only Panagia is allowed in Athos bothers you, why not think that She is a woman. And it is our representative who has been there and is there taking still care of the world and the salvation of many souls.

She may be a woman, but she does not represent me. I am a sinful woman, and she wasn't. That's the way I see it. You can argue about it if you wish, but unless something miraculous happens, I doubt if I can see it in any other way.


But I do know why it disturbs the peace of my heart --- because I believe the underlying message is that women are inferior, somehow contaminated....

If I ever hear an argument that convinces me that I (and other females), just because we are females, are NOT spiritually inferior to males (in spite of the bans and prohibitions that seem to proclaim otherwise), then I would probably get chrismated the next day.

Carol
*******************


Dear Carol,

you never will hear an argument that convinces you of anything. That's just a basic limitation of an Argument. Words are just words. So, I too cannot convince you of what I know. Only in the Orthodox Church, have I felt this incredible equality between men and women. I feel it. Sometimes, more than others. But it has nothing to do with what people are saying or doing. It's much deeper.

The reason women aren't allowed on Mt Athos has nothing to do with women's inferiority or sinfulness. In fact, I suspect, it has nothing to do with women at all. And, Mount Athos cannot possibly be The center of Orthodox spirituality. If it were, all saints would be coming out of Mt Athos. And yet, there are many saints from many places. If women had no access to the deep spirituality that is found in Mt Athos, then women saints would be very rare, but that also is not true. Whatever is found in Mt Athos, is obviously not vital for one to become a saint.

I grew up in a culture were women were considered inferior. Even though no one ever treated me as inferior or said anything about it, such poisonous attitudes do seep into your soul. Nina has had the advantage of having grown up in a much cleaner place, so she is probably not as broken and bruised as we are. She has also had the Church from the time she was an infant, and I'm sure that makes a difference in one's general attitude towards life.

I believe, if we know our worth, we will not be swayed by what happens around us, by how we are treated, by rules imposed and attitudes towards us, or anything else. Our worth, is established by God, not man. But, for as long as we are broken, we will be in pain every time someone bumps us with a racist remark or a rule that makes us feel inferior. This healing only comes from God, not from man. Mt Athos is only a small part of the Church, it is not the entire Church. If you think you'll find healing in Mt Athos, then, that same healing is available to you anywhere within the Church, in any parish, in any monastery.

Since we're 'arguing', just for the sake of 'argument' - consider another situation where people might think in terms of inferior/superior. Two people applying for a job. One black, one white. The white person is more qualified and therefore gets the job. The black person, if he knows his own worth in Christ, will know that his blackness had nothing to do with his losing the job. But for someone, who all his life had believed he is inferior, any negative action around him, he takes personally, and believes it's because he is inferior in some way.

So it is with this women/men thing. To be totally honest with you, I think it's women who contribute to this negative attitude far more than men do. At least, I picked it up more from the women in my life. Before I was married, my mom would always talk things over with me, and although she never had any intention of following my advice, she always wanted to hear my opinion. But after I got married, she would go to my husband. She told me, what I say doesn't count anymore because he is the head of the house. I've never been told by a man, that my opinion doesn't count.

Anyway, that was her general attitude towards men/women, and it is the only thing I learned from her. It back fired though, on both of us, because I never could value her love for me as real, and her concerns and her worries were an annoyance and a bother, I never paid any attention to what she told me, and never thought she had anything to teach me. I paid closer attention to my father. I had very little respect for her, and I had very little respect for myself too. Consequently, I was very dependent on others to prove to me that I was worthy and respectable. Not exactly the best place to be, because people, unless they truly know how to respect themselves, cannot respect others. I think I was surrounded by people who wanted others to confirm their worth, so we sort of ended up causing a lot of damage to ourselves and each other.


Forgive me for going off on a tangent.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

Just saying we must have confidence in God's love and shouldn't think we're inferior, isn't going to fix it. We have deep-rooted rot and brokenness, and it will take many many years to heal.

What is there to fix Mary? I do not understand you (and I am a female, I reiterate) because things that come from within have nothing to do with the Church, or God. That is why saints say we must first purify the heart.


She may be a woman, but she does not represent me. I am a sinful woman, and she wasn't. That's the way I see it. You can argue about it if you wish, but unless something miraculous happens, I doubt if I can see it in any other way.

Isn't the discussion here males versus females allowed in Athos? It is not sinners versus saints. Maybe this is what is confusing you.

And Herman, yes, I agree with you.

[Nina]

I grew up in a culture were women were considered inferior. Even though no one ever treated me as inferior or said anything about it, such poisonous attitudes do seep into your soul. Nina has had the advantage of having grown up in a much cleaner place, so she is probably not as broken and bruised as we are. She has also had the Church from the time she was an infant, and I'm sure that makes a difference in one's general attitude towards life.
In Christ,
Mary.

Mary, what you assume here about my life (sorry that I did not read the entire response since the beginning) is not so correct because you do not know anything about my life. And societies do have negative attitudes about women everywhere and currently it continues. However that does not mean that we must translate this attitude into the Church's attitude towards women. Also whatever the attitude of the society is, I do not mind in general. Many people I know, do not like the Church, or Christianity, or that I wear a cross etc. I ignore such opinions and while those can be pestering for the moment, they are not molding me, or affecting what I believe in. If some negative attitude can make me feel guilty, it will be only that I regret/resent that I am not a saint because if I was a saint I could pray for them and they would positively change since God promised to hear His saints' prayers - this pearl wisdom is not mine, but a saying of Elder Paisios.

[John Wilson]

I can't remember if anyone else has mentioned already, but the Athos peninsular is not just the location of the 20 monasteries and the associated sketes and cells, but in its wilderness also live a number of hermit monks who live completely alone.
After fires had cleared the wilderness around the monastery of Simonopetra, the abbot sent some of the monks out in pairs to map the various trails which had now become visible due to the removal of the undergrowth. One of the trails the followed ended at the edge of a cliff, and looking over the edge they spotted hand an foot holds so one of the monks climbed over to see where they led. He soon found himself in a cave in which he found evidence of a hermit monk living there, a few icons, a rasso, a small table with a full jug of water. They rushed back to the monastery to inform the abbot that they had found a hermit monk and wished to return to learn who he was. The abbot forbade them to go back, but on there insistence he finally allowed them to return. When they entered the cave a second time however, they found it completely empty. The hermit monk had realised his whereabouts had been discovered and had left to find another suitable location.

John

[Paul C.]

You write "Women were respectfully banned from the Holy Mountain in honor of the Most Holy Mother of God."

1. How does it honor the Theotokos to ban women from Her special garden?

2. What is "respectful" about this ban?

Carol Dear Carol

Have you ever been to a restaurant or club that imposed a dress code on patrons and guests? If you try to imagine such a place where men are respectfully asked to leave when they arrive wearing shorts, running shoes and a T-shirt instead of a tie and formal suit you may understand the difference between regular women and the Ever Virgin Most Holy Mother of God who surpasses all Cherubim and Seraphim and of course all men too. Wouldn't the whole atmosphere change if people entered who were dressed for a football game or in overalls? What if an earthly queen was present? Would it not dishonor her if men dressed as described above approached her and said "Hey. What's up?"

It has been shown in psychology experiments that people behave differently and treat others differently depending on the clothes they or others wear. What woman has a soul clothed in equal virtue to the Theotokos?

See (Matthew 22:11-14). The Most Holy Mother of God surpasses all womankind and when she arrived on the Holy mountain, her presence made it Holy and her Son presented it to her as a gift. The monks who devote their lives to monasticism there honor her above all creation. Why would we have women visit the most holy monasteries for men? There are women's monasteries where men are not permitted to enter. There are men's monasteries where women are not permitted to enter. The Holy Mountain is a place of men's monasteries.

I visited and lived for a time in a monastery for men and one day, to help a deacon monk pick up a heavy bird bath buried in the back yard of the nearby women's monstery (convent) founded by the same abbot who founded and governed the men's monastery, I was not permitted to enter the chapel under any circumstances but visiting women were and only serving male clergy (one married priest and one deacon-monk) were present in the chapel during liturgy.

Why would anyone want women walking through the holiest of men's monasteries anyway? Is celibacy of mind, body and soul no longer respected for men's monasteries on My Athos honoring the Theotokos as much as it is in a women's monastery in USA where non-clerical males are respectfully asked to stay outside the chapel during liturgy so as not be a temptation for the female monastics inside? I was not even permitted to kiss the icons in the chapel while nuns and novices were present.

In the nearby men's monastery founded by the same abbot who founded the women's monastery women were permitted in the chapel and one nun who ran guided tours for Orthodox women pushed men to the women's side of the chapel after the liturgy was underway every Sunday upon her late arrival. She did this apparently so that she could gaze at her favorite son who was a monk reader facing the right hand side of the faithful congregation when he read. She also showed great disrespect to the abbot according to the monks. She did not become a nun until her son first became a monk and he travelled across the country to get away from the climate where his parents lived for medical reasons. She travelled across the country to be a nun a few miles away from him for no medical reason.

Respectfully banned means the women are asked in a respectful manner to respect the rules of the Holy Mountain and not visit the male monastic communities there. The whole mountain is one big collective of male monastic communities.

I'm sorry if I offend anyone,
Paul

[Alice]

Dear Carol,

I would just like to back up everything that Nina has said so eloquently and honestly. I, also am a woman, and have absolutely NO problem with not being able to visit the Holy Mountain. I have not, for one minute, ever, thought it was because I am inferior because of my gender!

Infact, I think that is more brainwashing of the so called 'women's movement' perhaps, than anything else.

Temptations between females and males are a reality and a strong tool of the devil to cause us to sin.

Why would I (or any other woman) want to do that to men who are dedicating their every breath and thought towards attaining theosis, and in the process, who are praying for the whole world...infact, the fact that we are still around, despite the rampant and increasing paganism and sinful horrors we live and hear daily, is most probably because of their holy prayers.

I once shared, with my husband, a spiritual father from Mt. Athos. He was a gentle and kind saint of a man, and I never once sensed that I was considered a 'lesser spiritual being' than my husband. Infact, I have NEVER sensed this in the Greek Orthodox Church of my birth by any cleric, hierarch, monk, or priest-monk--either in Greece or in the U.S...EVER.

Infact, to the contrary, I have felt that women are respected and valued greatly, because the Theotokos is so highly honoured...and I have heard sermons extolling the virtues of compassion, caring, and nurturing that come naturally to women. :-)

In Christ,
Alice

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Carol and others,

I think the real heart of the answer comes in Fr Raphael's response, above (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=69434&postcount=96).

Monasteries are places of spiritual struggle and growth, that are deliberately removed from the social norms of 'the world'. One of the very basic 'renunciations' of communal monastic life, is that of marriage -- one is espoused to Christ, rather than a human spouse -- and with it the life-in-common with members of the other sex. Monasteries exist for men, they exist for women; but in traditional practice, they are not combined. Women do not enter men's monasteries, as this would be a temptation for the monks and would challenge the renunciation of those social ties; and men do not enter women's monasteries, as this would be a temptation for the nuns and would challenge their renunciation (the question of having a priest for a women's monastery is frequently raised - it has been discussed elsewhere in these forums; briefly here to repeat that this is quite different indeed from male pilgrims, visitors or others). Monasteries are places of withdrawl.

Monasteries exercise this withdrawl differently, as the monastic life is a dynamic and monasteries are each different entities. Some are utterly withdrawn, and pilgrims are never allowed. Others are open to pilgrims: some monasteries allow only pilgrims of their same gender (only women pilgrims to women's monasteries, only men pilgrims to men's monasteries), others allow pilgrims of all genders. This is a decision of the monastic community, based on its own approach to its renunciation of the world, its spiritual discipline and practice, and the best means for it to develop its own spiritual life.

Mount Athos is only an exception to this inasmuch as it is famous - in no other way. Off of the Holy Mountain, in mainland Greece (as well as all across the world) there are other men's monasteries that allow no female pilgrims. There are also women's monasteries that allow no males.

Our tendency in the modern world is to see everything through the lens of 'equal rights': what someone else is allowed to do, I should be allowed to do. If I'm not allowed to do it, it's because you think I'm not good enough, not worthy enough, not of sufficient value, to do so.

The truth of the matter, at least with respect to monasticism, is that the separation of the sexes is precisely an affirmation of the equal worth of all persons, male or female. The genders are distinct: they are not one and the same; and yet neither is 'more holy', 'more worthy of salvation', 'more honourable'. The monastic way is open equally to all, without confusing the two into one. Women are affirmed in their struggle as women, men as men. Nothing is open to one gender that is not to the other in this monastic struggle. And the monastic struggle is precisely one that demands withdrawl from the normal intermingling of relationships - it is part of what sets this ascetical path apart from the equally valid ascetical path of married life. So again, the separation of the sexes is part of the affirmation that monastcism gives to the sanctity of both genders. Women are not subjugated to 'men's monasticism'.

Again, what stirs the emotions over Mount Athos is its fame. We rarely see similar discontent being expressed over the hundreds of other Orthodox monasteries throughout the world that don't allow visitors of the opposite gender; it is the fame of the Holy Mountain that causes this. And yet the belief that 'this place is particularly famous, therefore I am denied something if I cannot go there', itself demonstrates our weakness of understanding the spiritual struggle. It is never bound up in place. Ascetical life flourishes wherever the ascetic heart is fostered. Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) was once asked whether he wished to visit Mount Athos, to which he replied: 'Why should I? Everything I require for salvation is here.'

Getting back to the question of the Mother of God and Athos: I believe Father Raphael is wholly correct. The Mother of God is honoured by the Mountain being open only to males, because this is part-and-parcel of the Athonites' renunciation of the world, and their dedication to purity and ascetical struggle. She is honoured there because souls are saved there - which is the Panaghia's desire for all creatures. It is her garden, because it bears the fruit of repentant lives. These lives are male, because Athos is a men's monastic community. Her love for the place in no way belittles her love for any other monastic community her care for any other people. It is the dedication of this place, just as all churches bear a dedication to a saint, as does every monastery - male and female.

Similarly, there are women's monasteries in the Orthodox world that are dedicated to the Mother of God, where she is honoured by the fact that men are not admitted - since in those places, the non-admission of men is part-and-parcel of the nuns' work of purity and ascetical struggle, which yields angelic persons radient with divine life.

And in those places, as in every place where the ascetical life opens itself up to God, and the Creator draws his creature unto himself, the eternal mystery takes place in its fulness. Let us never think this is bound to some place, however famous, however much the historical 'heart' and 'centre' of certain traditions. God is present nowhere so much as he is present here, if I am willing to take the cross he hands to me, be crucified to this world, and joined to his life.

INXC, Deacon Matthew

[Paul Cowan]

Our tendency in the modern world is to see everything through the lens of 'equal rights': what someone else is allowed to do, I should be allowed to do. If I'm not allowed to do it, it's because you think I'm not good enough, not worthy enough, not of sufficient value, to do so.


I recently was told by friends who were going out to lunch, I could not go with them. There were several of them and I was very hurt they purposefully discluded me. I fumed for several days even not speaking to any of them; though they seemed perfectly fine as if nothing were wrong and even thought my attitude was inappropriate and rude. I was asked what as wrong with me since I was acting so abnormally towards them. I just buried my thoughts as if what they did in not inviting me to lunch was nothing all the while I was harboring resentment to each of them.

After a week or so of my poor behavior I was told to meet them at a certain place. I was now more ticked off being "told" what to do by these people I thought were my friends that had snubbed me for lunch on that day. To my shock/ horror/ surprise they had gotten together to plan my birthday party. How foolish I felt and what ammends I now needed to make. My friends had not snubbed me for lunch but had my welfare in mind by not inviting me out they had time to plan. They also knew I needed this party diversion since my work life had become a burden for me and knew I needed something else to occupy my mind with. What they did was a true blessing as I was buried in work and getting very depressed in it.

All this to parallel the question asked.

Just because we don't know the reason why something is happening, does not mean it is not for our benefit. Now, excuse me while I go eat some crow.

Paul

[Paul C.]

Post #s 110 and 111 are excellent summations of this theme!

[Carol Lockett]

Dear Mary,

Forgive you? There is nothing to forgive. Of all posts to my questions the one you wrote below is the first one that has really "reached me"; it is the one that I will read again and again. I, too, received a message of inferiority while growing up and I don't know just where it came from because no one ever spoke it to me directly. And, yes, I understand that we probably won't get an answer by arguing. I'm just blessed with (cursed with?) a somewhat skeptical mind and so I question a lot.

What really fascinates me about your reply is that you say you have found "incredible equality between men and women" in the Orthodox Church. Coming from you, a female who has struggled with issues similar to mine, this carries great weight. It got my attention. I wish you lived here in Texas and we could meet face to face. I would love to hear more from you about your sense of equality in a Church that has some customs and practices that appear to speak otherwise. Please write more about it, if you feel comfortable doing so.

Something is drawing me to the Orthodox Church and I can't explain it either. I may have mentioned earlier that I was a catechumen for 2 years and then left to join the Episcopal Church where I have lately felt something lacking and I can't say what it is.

Mary, thank you for writing and even sharing some of your life. Have I mentioned on this discussion (I honestly don't remember) that I have advanced breast cancer? It has spread to my liver and I've been on extended sick leave since March of this year. In February, two doctors estimated I had about 6 weeks to live. I got a third opinion and I am still alive. It was long days in bed over the summer that I began to think of returning to Orthodoxy. None of us knows how much time we have left but I can assure you that going through this cancer thing for the past 2 years and 2 months, being on chemotherapy almost constantly for 16 months (I even lost my hair twice! Not fair! ---But I can assure you that hair loss is a minor thing. I'll take baldness over some of the other side effects any day) has turned my life upside down.

In spite of the drawbacks, Orthdoxy "draws" me. It seems to be the only religion deep enough to handle the life/death issues that I'm now forced to face and the losses (physical and mental) that I now endure. Yet, there's this "woman issue" that gets in the way every time. How can I join a Church that puts so many restrictions on females and so few on males? Mary, I am so glad you got past this "chasm" (that's what the local Orthodox priest I've been in contact with calls it.)

I go to a class every Wed night at this local Orthodox Church. The topic concerns approaches to suffering in the Christian Tradition. It's quite an effort to get to this class -- I'm usually completely worn out afterwards. Most of my Protestant friends think I'm nuts and that such a class would be too "depressing." I tell them that such a class is exactly what I need.

Now, I beg forgiveness for rambling on and on. There are a lot of other meaty posts out there and I'm glad the discussion is back on track.

Carol
in Austin, Texas

[Mary]

Dear Mary,

What really fascinates me about your reply is that you say you have found "incredible equality between men and women" in the Orthodox Church. Coming from you, a female who has struggled with issues similar to mine, this carries great weight. It got my attention. I wish you lived here in Texas and we could meet face to face. I would love to hear more from you about your sense of equality in a Church that has some customs and practices that appear to speak otherwise. Please write more about it, if you feel comfortable doing so.

Carol
in Austin, Texas

Dear Carol,

Perhaps we'll start another thread about the equality of Men and Women in the Orthodox Church. I wasn't going to post again on this thread, because, it's simply too hard, to put into words things that I can only feel in my heart. I don't mind sharing how I found the answers that I did. But, what satisfied me, may not necessarily satisfy you.

The bulk of what I learned came from situations in my own life and I found answers through people I personally know. I think, you also, will find your answers right where you are. I think, God always puts us in the best place, for us to find Him, and that includes every detail in our lives - geographic, ethnic, gender, whatever...

In Christ,
Mary.

[Carol Lockett]

Dear Paul,

No, you did not offend me but I could not supress a chuckle at your lecture on dress codes. I'm an old gal, 59, going on 60, and I grew up with dress codes. Schools had dress codes back in the 50's and 60's. I could not wear pants to class until I was in college. In my small town Texas childhood, a woman did not even go downtown (and downtown was the only place to shop; there were no malls) in pants.

I have visited 3 monasteries (2 male and 1 female) here in Texas and I have abided by the dress codes and all regulations in each one.

If manner of dress is the problem here, it can be handled by a strictly enforced dress code or perhaps limiting females to certain areas. It can be done. (When I was in first grade 'way back in 1955, I remember that a girl was sent home for wearing pants to school. I felt like crying because I knew she was really poor and that may have been all she had to wear that day but I didn't question the dress code.) But Mt. Athos won't even allow women even with a dress code, or in restricted areas.

I dress pretty dorky anyway so monastery dress codes don't bother me. I've lost 30 lbs (that's from 125 to 95 lbs and I am 5 feet 6 inches tall) due to this cancer and have a swollen belly due to liver damage. I wear baggy loose clothing to cover up the fact that there is, well, no longer anything of beauty to cover up! I used to balk at required head coverings to visit monasteries, but after losing my hair twice to various chemotherapies I no longer care about that -- I have a collection of caps and scarves, again to cover up the fact that there is nothing to cover up! It would have to be a truly desparate monk (or male of any profession) to find me a "temptation" at this point. Sometimes I feel like I'm in another world when people talk about all this sexual temptation. Cancer has upended my life and thrown a lot into a different perspective for me. But I don't recommend it. Cancer is the pits.

Just because I'm female doesn't mean that I can't dress and behave respectfully. (I was able to do this before having cancer -- having cancer has just helped make physical appearance and attractiveness less important in my life.) And there are other females who are also capable of dressing and behaving themselves respectfully. And there are women who want to visit Mt. Athos for spiritual reasons, not just to "walk through" as you said.

I am sorry about the nun who behaved so badly (the incidents you relate at the end of your post). There are examples of disrespectful behavior in both sexes, I'm afraid.

Carol

[Carol Lockett]

Mary,

If you start another thread (and I hope you do), let me know. I'm still a bumpkin on this list and don't know how to find things very well.

carol

[Paul C.]

Dear Carol

I was so sad to learn of your medical condition/s. May the Lord help you gain a place in His kingdom eventually. It seems to me that God is keeping you alive for some reason.

I do hope you join the Orthodox faith and I hope there is a church near you. Many people I have known became Orthodox after much trial and tribulation includiing a lady who's breast cancer spread throughout her body and who was told there was nothing for her to do but wait for death. She was very alert and interesting company.

Her daughter had come out of a long coma to be dissabled and retarded. She used to be an athletic high school student with straight 'A' s. She became Orthodox first in her family after coming out of the coma with a much older Russian male Orthodox friend at her side when she was in her twenties. Then the mother became Orthodox, then the father who had a terminal heart disease. The young lady's younger brother, who was only 16, committed suicide with a shotgun when his high school sweetheart terminated their romance.

I have not seen them at all for decades (having only met the parents twice and the daughter 4 times) and I assume that only the young woman has survived on her crutches which are the clip on type that paraplegics use. She wears leg braces which she can remove at home. They were a good and decent family.

May the Lord look after you and strengthen your spirit as your body weakens. Such severe illness has often preceded much spiritual growth and led to a life prepared for entrance into heaven. I too have not long to live and I am a few years younger than you. I was told that I would die many years ago but I guess I am not ready for God's kingdom until I acquire peace in my soul. I think I am still too sinful for heaven.

With sympathy,
Paul

[Paul Cowan]

I have visited 3 monasteries (2 male and 1 female) here in Texas and I have abided by the dress codes and all regulations in each one.

Dear Carol,

Where is the second Male monastery? I know of Holy Archangels in Kendalia. What other are you referring to. Christ in the Hills monastery? I can't say this is a monastery considering their circumstances. But I suppose at one point, they passed themselves off as such.

[Alice]

My dear Carol,

My most humble and sincere prayers to our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, through the intercessions of his loving and compassionate Mother and the patron saints of those suffering with cancer, like St. Nektarios of Aegina--for your health, your quest, and your fears in this difficult time in your life.

May you be comforted, dear sister in Christ, in all things. Amen.

God bless you and keep you well,
Alice

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dearest Carol, may our wonderful Panayia be with you and watch over you in this, your hour of need.

The beauty you claim you have lost was apparent to me via your posts.

I also sometimes fantasize that I will some day be able to visit the Holy Mountain and experience some of the peace that men are able to find there. But, I also respect the fact that our Holy Mountain is a place where men can go without the disturbance caused by the presence of the female sex.

Let's not deceive ourselves. Both men and women act differently when the opposite sex is present - even saints.
I love the fact that I can visit so many monasteries that only women can visit. The absence of men allows women to not be self conscious and to discover the beauty of concentrating on the soul and not on the body. I assume the same applies to the men on the Holy Mountain.

It is not about the inferiority or not of the female species. Our Lord gave us many examples of the fact that He considered women to be equal to men. This is especially evident when we consider the male-dominated society in which He lived.



"Luke 8 : 1-3

After this, Jesus travelled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means."

The above women were not subservient to men. They believed in Jesus, they followed Him, and they even supported Him financially.

[Nina]

Carol... the hair... when I wrote about vanity, I also wrote about my hair (how much I love them and that I do not want to cover them, or tie them -since when visiting spiritual places that is a requirement), but for a reason I erased that. The reason being that my mother lost her beautiful long hair from chemo too and I did not want to tie that to vanity... She had very long and so beautiful hair (mine do not compare) and I knew that she would loose them and took many pictures of her (I would ask her to wait after drying them and would take pictures - since my mother always tied her hair up). Otherwise her beauty did not change. But of course she suffered so much and I would stand behind the door and listen to her suffering from chemo's side effects and she would not let me in because she did not want me to see her suffer... but I would hear her suffering and I did not want to live because I loved my mom so much - I even prayed to God to take me instead of her.

But when the difficult moments would finish she was back to normal and so beautiful. Although she did not have hair at some point and although ill she had this glow... I think it is the grace that God gives to a suffering soul after carrying the cross. But the hair came back and they were so super cute and we (my aunt and I) got the chance to make many little styles to my mother's hair. Because with her very long hair only she or a professional could manage it.

I still have my mother's cut hair (she cut them after chemo before they would fall out)... I keep them hidden somewhere because I can't see them, but I hope I will be strong enough at some point to reopen the little luggage with things from my mother.

It is interesting that my mother grew up in a society (not Greek and of course not Orthodox) that upheld a saying which I am translating: "Women have long hair, but short brains." (whatever that means). Therefore you can imagine the attitude of the society (although her family was the opposite and was a safe place) while she was growing up. However I never heard her be affected by it. I also never heard her associate this attitude with the Church. Actually, she loved the Church and her two most favorite places were church and home. My spiritual father, who is a monk from Mount Athos always told me during confession, that I should strive to be exactly like my mother. And this is how people are. Some are misogynistic, and some are full of love. But the existence of misogyny in our world does not mean that the Church has the same stance, or that decisions of the Church are motivated by it. It is maybe redundant to repeat what many Fathers have said about women and their role in the Church and how women stood by Christ when He was suffering (one of them being Elder Paisios the New of Mount Athos, who departed in 1992 and we are waiting for his canonization). I beleive that the same Fathers/Saints would have protested against the decision that bans women from Athos if it was directed to women with mysogenistic tendencies, since these saints were led by the Holy Spirit and they always spoke against injustice and about God's love.

As the wonderful words of Father Matthew, Paul Cowan and John Wilson have mentioned in the most recent posts, this decision in the Church has nothing to do with women, but with the salvation of the world (male and female).

Sorry that I talk so much about my mother... it has been a bit more than two years since she departed (she was 52), but I still suffer that she is not here (also I used to think it is unfair for all the things I lost with my mother, but this is the cross I have to carry and I am trying to learn to deal with it) and I woke up this morning from a bad dream about her. I love and trusted my mother and while she was here I knew that she knows best - even my spiritual father told me so. We all also love Panagia and should trust that She knows best after God for our salvation.

On another note. I find this article (http://www.scribd.com/doc/6364192/Womens-Space-in-Byzantine-Monasteries) interesting since it also starts by explaining the rule of avaton/abaton (which when applied it prohibits males, or females depending on the place). This concept was widely well known, understood and accepted in the past.

[Nina]

I see this passage beneficial to explain how a monk from Athos feels (placing ourselves in the another's shoes), although the rest of the article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/17/gender.uk)is tainted (so sorry!).


From Karyes it is a three-hour walk to the sea, and the beautiful monastery of Stavronikita. Here a Macedonian monk called Hector talks about life without females.



"People say it is wrong to banish women," he says. "The European Union tells us we must change. We will never change." He half smiles. "When man not see woman, he see inside himself. That is what we are here for, to see inside, and to pray for the world."


But what is it like never to look at a woman? Hector gazes across some olive groves at the sapphire Aegean: "Well, actually, once every few years, one or two monks may indeed see a woman. Sometimes, you understand, women come to the beach here, for an adventure. It is illegal, but they come swimming. They wear bikinis, and then... then is difficult for us." He looks wistful for a while. Then he smiles again. "But most monks will never see a woman. And after a time... you know... is not so difficult."



Another clue to the monks' attitude to women is provided by the writings of Robert Curzon, an English traveller who visited Athos in the 1840s. On his wanderings around the monasteries, Curzon came across a man who had been left as a foundling on the peninsula, and thereafter been brought up by the monks. This experience meant the man had spent all his life in Athos, and therefore had no idea what women looked like. The only idea of the female body that the man possessed was derived from icons of the Blessed Virgin. Perhaps that is why the man asked Curzon if all women had haloes.



Extreme cases such as this are hard to find these days. But it is still possible to encounter unusual experiences. Down the road, at the monastery of Dionysiou, another monk talks of the ups and downs of life in a woman-free world. He is the only English monk on Mount Athos, a kind-eyed, thirtysomething, Oxford-born eccentric who gives his name as Father Jeffrey. "I think it's good there are no women here," he says. "This is a safe place and it should stay that way. But that does not mean you do not have sexual desires, sexual thoughts. The Evil One is always with you."



He turns and squints at a rose, radiant in the sunshine. "You might know we are allowed radios, very occasionally?" He pauses, shyly. "Well, the other day I heard a woman's voice on the radio. It was the first woman's voice I have heard for years. It was so beautiful..." There is pain in his eyes. Then he concludes. "But it is better that there are no women here. Without women, men can concentrate."


I also hear about a monk in Athos, who never saw a woman in his life and then he saw a piece of newspaper -left behind by a careless visitor- which had the photo of a woman and the poor monk had so many temptations.

P.S If interested in Curzon's book mentioned in the passage above, please find it here (http://books.google.com/books?id=ouIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA327&dq=curzon+athos&lr=&as_brr=1&client=safari&hl=nl).

[Carol Lockett]

Thanks to everyone who wrote me such supportive emails. I've been really tired and not had the opportunity to respond sooner. I regret that I can't respond to everyone individually. I just about cried when I read so many words of love and we had been arguing just days before.

A few quick responses: Paul, yes, the "second men's monastery" in Texas was Christ of the Hills. I visited there during my catechumen days, aware of the scandals, but with an Orthodox friend (female) who said one of the monks was OK and she wanted some spiritual guidance from him. They did have a great bookstore and gift shop! Shortly afterwards the Sheriff of Blanco County raided the placed and arrested 4 or 5 monks for child abuse. The Sheriff had waited 7 years to collect enough evidence to make a good case -- apparently waiting for testimony from the victims, many of whom were now young men (seems that women are not the only temptation to monks!) It was a juicy story in the papers and my husband (who is not religious at all and an even more resistant skeptic than I am) called me at work to tell me about it. "Are these monks from that church you're trying to join?" he asked. I had to spend the next few days explaining to him that those monks had apostated themselves some time ago by refusing to allow the bishop on the property and that, no, that monastery did not represent the "church I was trying to join."

I have no special desire to visit a women's monastery where men are banned. Men are not a distraction to me. There are plenty of things that are distractions to me but the presence of men is not one of them. However, I do wish there was a women's monastery close by. We have St. Pareskevi (sp?) but it is a good 70 miles from Austin and I could not handle this type of travel right now. I visited once after they first opened and there were only 3 nuns there, perhaps there are more now.

Thanks to everyone who listened to me and cared.

In Christ, Carol

[Paul Cowan]

I visited once after they first opened and there were only 3 nuns there, perhaps there are more now.

Thanks to everyone who listened to me and cared.


No, last I heard there were still three there, however now they have a beautiful new temple to worship in rather than the side den they were using.

Here is a great website (http://www.orthodoxhouston.org/goa-stparaskevi.php) for panorthodox in SE Texas (look at the root address) If you click through this hyperlink it will take you to St. Paraskevi Monastery website with pictures of their place.

[RichardWorthington]

How is it "not spiritually beneficial for women to enter Mount Athos?" How do you (or anyone) know this? Mt. Athos is constanty referred to as the "center" of Orthodox spirituality. Why would it be beneficial to women to ban us outright from entering such a spiritual place?

Carol


Having never been to Mt Athos, I know what I say here can be 'shot down' easily, but here goes.

I guess there are relics of female saints on Mt Athos. Why then are living women not allowed on Athos when the bodies/bones of women saints are allowed?

Forgive us men, but I can think of only one reason: women are just so amazing that we men just can't stop thinking about you!!

The only reason I can think of for not allowing women around is our manly weakness: in this we men are the weaker sex. It is probably all to do with conquering sexual passions. I have heard that in some monasteries elsewhere when young novices are around sometimes the readings of the saints at mealtimes will be modified so that any mentioned of women is removed so that lust is not fed as well.

"Mt. Athos is constanty referred to as the "center" of Orthodox spirituality": My spiritual Father is an Athonite monk: by what he has told me, I think it would be more accurate to think of Mt Athos as the "camelot of Orthodoxy". As a new revised English 'Psalter' has it:


The rain may never fall till after sundown.
By eight, the morning fog must disappear.
In short, there's simply not
A more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Camelot

http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/camelot/camelot.htm

I hope this helps.

Richard

[Nina]

I guess there are relics of female saints on Mt Athos. Why then are living women not allowed on Athos when the bodies/bones of women saints are allowed?



Can I be a bit self-righteous? Please?

We can not compare relics of the saints with the bodies of living females. Let me count the ways we can not... oh but this is common knowledge and we all know the differences between a female saint's relic and a woman who is still alive (sinner, or saint).



The only reason I can think of for not allowing women around is our manly weakness: in this we men are the weaker sex. It is probably all to do with conquering sexual passions. I have heard that in some monasteries elsewhere when young novices are around sometimes the readings of the saints at mealtimes will be modified so that any mentioned of women is removed so that lust is not fed as well.You are toooooooo nice Richard, but you do not have to put down men (as Mary also has said somewhere else) in order to make women feel better. I am much too proud for that. :) Actually I take offense if someone tries that tactic because that means that we women are too proud and need ego massages. Men are not weaker sex. They are people who struggle for their salvation same as women. Just because I do not like to go to a place full of men/frequented solely by men, does not mean that I am weaker sex, but it means that I am avoiding temptation.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Richard Worthington wrote:



I guess there are relics of female saints on Mt Athos. Why then are living women not allowed on Athos when the bodies/bones of women saints are allowed?

This is actually the point that has been referred to here previously. The rule about women on Mt Athos has nothing to do with an 'inequality' issue.

Rather it refers more to respect for those pursuing a particular way of life.

That is why for those women who have reached the stage of deification and whose relics are on Mt Athos there is no problem presented for those men pursuing the angelic life of asceticism and purity. The same of course also is so much the more for the Mother of God who is the protective Abbess of Mt Athos.

A last aspect to keep firmly in mind is that such women including the Mother of God are on Mt Athos out of obedience not from self will. This last fact changes everything.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

I must say that I agree with Fr Raphael in his post above, and would suggest that the constant return of the question to one of 'equality / inequality' is often unhelpful. This is not because questions of equity and personhood are not important - of course they are; but because this is not really the heart of the issue regarding Mount Athos, despite the fact that our tendencies may often prompt us to think of it in this way.


There have been a number of posts in this thread that deal specifically with the question of what really is at stake in the nature of Mount Athos as a men's-only monastic community, and the concordant prohibition on women pilgrims there. I would strongly encourage a re-reading of several, perhaps starting with:

Post # 27 by Alice (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=68107&postcount=27)
Post #40 by Jonathan (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=68164&postcount=40)
Post #95 by Igumen Raphael (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=69434&postcount=95)
Post #103 by Mary (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=69452&postcount=103)
Post #108 by Alice (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=69475&postcount=108)
Post #109 by me (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=69477&postcount=109)
I do think there are important and good matters for discussion in all this; but I rather fear that segues 'in' to those matters are being provided yet not followed, given the fascination with things like 'equality'.

It would be good to see some more engagement here with the real matter at stake in Mount Athos (there is another thread on the questions of equality in the Church). At this stage, I can't really think of anything else to add to my post above, since we haven't really dived any further into those matters -- and I don't want to repeat myself again at length (my initial thoughts can be read in full above (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=69477&postcount=109)); but I would just reiterate my summary there:



Getting back to the question of the Mother of God and Athos: I believe Father Raphael is wholly correct. The Mother of God is honoured by the Mountain being open only to males, because this is part-and-parcel of the Athonites' renunciation of the world, and their dedication to purity and ascetical struggle. She is honoured there because souls are saved there - which is the Panaghia's desire for all creatures. It is her garden, because it bears the fruit of repentant lives. These lives are male, because Athos is a men's monastic community. Her love for the place in no way belittles her love for any other monastic community her care for any other people. It is the dedication of this place, just as all churches bear a dedication to a saint, as does every monastery - male and female.

Similarly, there are women's monasteries in the Orthodox world that are dedicated to the Mother of God, where she is honoured by the fact that men are not admitted - since in those places, the non-admission of men is part-and-parcel of the nuns' work of purity and ascetical struggle, which yields angelic persons radient with divine life.

And in those places, as in every place where the ascetical life opens itself up to God, and the Creator draws his creature unto himself, the eternal mystery takes place in its fulness. Let us never think this is bound to some place, however famous, however much the historical 'heart' and 'centre' of certain traditions. God is present nowhere so much as he is present here, if I am willing to take the cross he hands to me, be crucified to this world, and joined to his life.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Sabrina]

Hello: I know I'm showing up late to this party, but I do have a question on this topic. What would be the women's equivalent to Mt. Athos? Is there such a place? If so, could you please tell me where it is.

[Paul Cowan]

Ormilyea in Greece which is a dependency of Simonpetra of Athos

[Sabrina]

Thank you, Paul. I googled and found several websites talking about the Holy Cenobium of the Annunciation of the Mother of God, Ormylia and the Ormylia foundation. The place sounds just as interesting as Mt. Athos IMO, and they're doing God's work just as much as the male monks are. It's really too bad some secularists/feminists can only value "male" things and blow off the 'female' things of life if you know what I'm saying.

[Paul Cowan]

Absolutely I do. I belong to an organization that has membership standards. Those that do not meet those standards are always up in arms because they are not allowed to join. They do have the right to form their own mirror organization, but noooo, they have to make a stink they can't join mine.

[Irini kilakos]

I think we need to respect and obey the rules of the Holy Mountain!!!!!!!!!